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The Takeover: writing fiction after memoir with Kaya Wilson · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Natasha Rai: This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai.
• 0:14
  Natasha Rai: I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
• 0:26
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on.
• 0:31
  Madeleine Cleary: and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:39
  Natasha Rai: Kaya Wilson is a writer, tsunami scientist, and lover of all things ocean, who somehow finds himself living in Canberra.
• 0:47
  Natasha Rai: Their first book, As Beautiful As Any Other, was listed by The Guardian as one of the best books of 2021 and shortlisted for the 2022 ACT Book of the Year.
• 0:58
  Natasha Rai: Their second book, a queer coming of age novel, Romeo, A Tale of Four Jumps, is in submission.
• 1:05
  Natasha Rai: Hi, Kaya.
• 1:07
  Natasha Rai: Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:09
  Kaya Wilson: Hello.
• 1:10
  Kaya Wilson: Thank you for having me.
• 1:11
  Natasha Rai: My absolute pleasure.
• 1:13
  Natasha Rai: Um, so we're here today to talk a little bit about your publishing journey, um, and how you got your first deal.
• 1:20
  Natasha Rai: But before we get to that, I would love to hear your elevator pitch.
• 1:23
  Natasha Rai: Yep, straight up.
• 1:28
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, look, I've never been great at the elevator pitch.
• 1:31
  Kaya Wilson: But I'll give it a shot.
• 1:33
  Kaya Wilson: Um, the other day I called it emo memoir.
• 1:36
  Kaya Wilson: Um, look, it's a, it's, I'm actually.
• 1:40
  Kaya Wilson: You know, it's been a few years now and I was looking back at it and I feel really proud of it, right?
• 1:44
  Kaya Wilson: It's a, it's a memoir, it's broken up into thematic chapters, and it sort of covers, um, the period of time in, probably one of the more formative times of my life, um, when I began my gender transition, um, sort of emotionally and medically, and it's sort of about everything that got me there, and then where I thought it was going to take me, essentially.
• 2:10
  Natasha Rai: Thanks.
• 2:10
  Natasha Rai: That's a great pitch.
• 2:11
  Kaya Wilson: Thanks.
• 2:14
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, like I did an event with Diana Reid.
• 2:17
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and she was like going off the charts, it was successful with Love and Virtue at the time.
• 2:22
  Kaya Wilson: And she had this pitch that was rehearsed, nailed, managed.
• 2:27
  Kaya Wilson: And that is something I want to do for my next book.
• 2:29
  Kaya Wilson: I want to, it's my new book resolution to get that pitch nailed in a way that.
• 2:34
  Kaya Wilson: You know, everyone can understand.
• 2:36
  Kaya Wilson: He doesn't have any idea what you're talking about.
• 2:38
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I think it's, I find it really hard not to roll my eyes and make a stupid face.
• 2:42
  Natasha Rai: So
• 2:45
  Kaya Wilson: you've got one, but you've got one prepared though.
• 2:47
  Kaya Wilson: That's half the battle.
• 2:48
  Natasha Rai: Well, I've had to, you know, cause this is so close to release.
• 2:51
  Natasha Rai: So I've
• 2:52
  Kaya Wilson: had to kind of practice it a lot.
• 2:53
  Kaya Wilson: Absolutely.
• 2:54
  Kaya Wilson: And especially like fiction.
• 2:56
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 2:56
  Kaya Wilson: If you can, like, I would love to get you to do it now, but I'm not going to do that because it's not your job today, but I look forward to hearing it live on radio someday.
• 3:05
  Kaya Wilson: Exactly.
• 3:06
  Natasha Rai: Some other time.
• 3:07
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I don't know if you remember, but, um, you gave me some excellent advice many, many years ago.
• 3:13
  Natasha Rai: So you and I had a, we both had pieces in that Me Too anthology that came out in 2017, I think, or 2018.
• 3:20
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:21
  Natasha Rai: And we were doing an event together.
• 3:24
  Natasha Rai: And before we went on stage, you said to me, just be careful because when you're, you know, when you're up there and there's.
• 3:29
  Natasha Rai: A lot of lovely supportive people around, you might say a bit too much, or you might share a bit too much about yourself and later on you think, Oh, I really didn't want to do that.
• 3:39
  Natasha Rai: That's interesting.
• 3:40
  Natasha Rai: So I was thinking.
• 3:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:43
  Natasha Rai: I was like going
• 3:44
  Kaya Wilson: back in time.
• 3:44
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 3:45
  Kaya Wilson: Go on.
• 3:45
  Natasha Rai: So I was thinking about that advice that you gave me and I was wondering if that plays or had a part to play when you approach your memoir, like how do you even start something like that kind of a project?
• 3:57
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, I mean, there's a boundaries, right?
• 3:59
  Kaya Wilson: We're talking about boundaries.
• 4:00
  Kaya Wilson: And I think, yeah, at the time, like, you know, it's part of everyone's psychological evolution.
• 4:06
  Kaya Wilson: And it's interesting for me to hear from you what I said at that time, because I think I was really learning a new type of boundaries, especially in terms of being In the public eye to a small degree with the book, absolutely.
• 4:21
  Kaya Wilson: I do think of it as a boundary text, even though there are some quite like exposing or vulnerable elements to it and moments that not everyone's going to share.
• 4:32
  Kaya Wilson: And, um, I think there's a few things in that.
• 4:37
  Kaya Wilson: And there's lots of people who approach memoir in different ways, right?
• 4:39
  Kaya Wilson: So some people, it seems to be that everyone who, most people who write memoir find a way to say what they need to say, and that might be either fictionalizing it or, or, uh, you know, classing it as auto fiction or, or something that gives them a little bit of, uh, liberation from mm-hmm You know, being exposed or they do something a bit like what I sort of did was like, write it first and then come back to sort of edit what you don't want to be made public.
• 5:17
  Kaya Wilson: And there are certain things about being from a slightly marginalized identity that can feel exposing in some ways, or you feel like are overexposed in general.
• 5:28
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and you feel like you don't want that.
• 5:31
  Kaya Wilson: I felt like I didn't want people to fixate on or.
• 5:35
  Kaya Wilson: I felt needed to be presented in a certain way because we don't, we don't live in a vacuum.
• 5:39
  Kaya Wilson: Right.
• 5:40
  Kaya Wilson: Um, yeah, there are some things that I did couch somewhat and, and that's also kind of interesting for me because some of those things I did hold back on, um, really came out of my fiction.
• 5:53
  Kaya Wilson: So, um, I think.
• 5:56
  Kaya Wilson: The things that need to come out, come out at some point.
• 5:58
  Kaya Wilson: It's just, you need to control how, how it's done in a way that you feel comfortable with.
• 6:02
  Kaya Wilson: And so sometimes your boundaries evolve, right?
• 6:04
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and.
• 6:07
  Kaya Wilson: You know, I don't know how you feel about that Me Too experience.
• 6:11
  Kaya Wilson: And it's interesting thinking back now, like, wow, like the Me Too movement, that was quite a heady time, wasn't it?
• 6:18
  Natasha Rai: It really was.
• 6:19
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 6:20
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 6:23
  Kaya Wilson: It feels almost quaint in this day and age.
• 6:29
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 6:30
  Kaya Wilson: But yeah, so boundaries, important.
• 6:31
  Kaya Wilson: Hold them and also establish them before you publish.
• 6:35
  Kaya Wilson: That's the other thing.
• 6:36
  Natasha Rai: So for you, Kaya, you wrote, you wrote it, and then once you kind of went back to it, did the themes emerge or did you have themes in mind that you then moved things around to fit?
• 6:49
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, themes absolutely emerged.
• 6:51
  Kaya Wilson: So I actually wrote it, um, in a more conventional chronological way.
• 6:55
  Kaya Wilson: It's probably a series of like 80 essays of about like 1000 words each.
• 7:00
  Kaya Wilson: And I went back and I just tried an experiment one day where I tried to weave two things together.
• 7:06
  Kaya Wilson: And, um, I wrote one 5, 000 word chapter and I was like, Oh, this is good and it was thematic.
• 7:15
  Kaya Wilson: And I was like, Oh, thematic works.
• 7:17
  Kaya Wilson: I was like, Oh, no, I have to write the whole thing again.
• 7:19
  Kaya Wilson: And then I wrote the whole thing again.
• 7:20
  Kaya Wilson: And it just, um, the themes to me, what rose to the top, you know, it was the, the A story and B story.
• 7:28
  Kaya Wilson: It was the, the real meaning kind of came to the top when I made it thematic.
• 7:33
  Kaya Wilson: Um, And yeah, so sometimes when things are thematic, you can hide some of the content.
• 7:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:40
  Natasha Rai: And you know, for some of our listeners who are considering or who are working on memoir, how did you look after yourself?
• 7:48
  Natasha Rai: Well, because I assume that parts of it must have been quite difficult to write.
• 7:52
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:54
  Kaya Wilson: It was part of writing.
• 7:56
  Kaya Wilson: It was part of looking out to myself.
• 7:58
  Kaya Wilson: If that makes sense.
• 7:59
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 7:59
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:00
  Kaya Wilson: Um, I mean, that's not my entire mental health strategy.
• 8:05
  Natasha Rai: It's a good one though.
• 8:07
  Natasha Rai: It's almost like a catharsis, right?
• 8:09
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 8:09
  Kaya Wilson: And you know, it's making sense of things.
• 8:11
  Kaya Wilson: And it was a way that I have made sense of things a lot of people do get that from writing things.
• 8:17
  Kaya Wilson: I mean, I did also have therapy, et cetera.
• 8:21
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but.
• 8:23
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, it was so important to my way of understanding myself and the world at the time that it's quite hard to even separate, um, separate it out.
• 8:34
  Natasha Rai: So you write this memoir, you put it into a, an order that makes sense to you in terms of themes.
• 8:41
  Natasha Rai: So tell me a little bit about your publication journey after that, because I know that you've had lots of short pieces and lots of publications already under your belt by that point.
• 8:51
  Kaya Wilson: Thanks.
• 8:51
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 8:52
  Kaya Wilson: So that was a, I'd say strategic, actually, the short pieces.
• 8:56
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and when we talk about boundaries, some of the short pieces of the things that I probably feel the weirdest about, but, and then also like now that kind of like first person opinion, PC type stuff, I'd barely even read it anymore.
• 9:13
  Kaya Wilson: Like, I think it was just for me, legit a phase or even like maybe a phase is.
• 9:18
  Kaya Wilson: In media at the time that I was a bit more engaged in, um, but, but that aside, the emotional or attachment to it aside, getting your, some things published is super important, I think, for me, it worked right.
• 9:35
  Kaya Wilson: So I had.
• 9:36
  Kaya Wilson: Um, short things published online, a couple in print and then two anthologies and then a book.
• 9:45
  Kaya Wilson: So the, for me, the key, the linchpin to all of it was having an agent.
• 9:51
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but it goes the same with an agent or not, right?
• 9:55
  Kaya Wilson: Because you're either you are pitching yourself or the agent is pitching you.
• 10:00
  Kaya Wilson: So you still need to have something to pitch, um, having something published means that not just you, but someone else has said, Oh, we think this is good enough to publish.
• 10:11
  Kaya Wilson: Um, my agent, uh, got me sort of.
• 10:16
  Kaya Wilson: Well, it kind of got me the invitation to apply or send a piece in for the Me Too anthology.
• 10:23
  Natasha Rai: So before we go into that, can we just take a step back?
• 10:27
  Natasha Rai: How did you get your agent?
• 10:29
  Natasha Rai: A lot of our listeners are very interested.
• 10:30
  Kaya Wilson: So yeah, I mean, this is probably, like I knew her socially.
• 10:36
  Kaya Wilson: Right.
• 10:37
  Kaya Wilson: And that's kind of an annoying thing to hear because it sounds like all who, you know, or having connections.
• 10:44
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and I did know someone semi famous watching someone pretty famous who she was the publicist for, so she knew all about like publishing.
• 10:57
  Kaya Wilson: Um, so my agent is Jane Novak.
• 10:59
  Kaya Wilson: She knew about publishing.
• 11:00
  Kaya Wilson: She was a publicist at the time when I first met her.
• 11:03
  Kaya Wilson: I really liked her.
• 11:04
  Kaya Wilson: I saw her in action with, uh, well known writers in a publicist role, but for like people who are stratospheric, they kind of have a publicist who follows them around.
• 11:16
  Kaya Wilson: Um, I don't have that.
• 11:20
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but yeah, so.
• 11:22
  Kaya Wilson: I'd seen her in action.
• 11:23
  Kaya Wilson: I'd seen her be very sensitive and, um, just really switched on.
• 11:29
  Kaya Wilson: It's like, I kind of knew how she worked, right?
• 11:31
  Kaya Wilson: And then she started a literary agency later down the track.
• 11:35
  Kaya Wilson: And then I was like, look, I'm writing some stuff.
• 11:38
  Kaya Wilson: And she was like, send it through.
• 11:40
  Kaya Wilson: And.
• 11:41
  Kaya Wilson: She was happy to take me on.
• 11:43
  Kaya Wilson: She's also like takes people on not in a kind of you sign a contract and that's it.
• 11:47
  Kaya Wilson: It's sort of more like I will sell each book that you produce kind of thing.
• 11:53
  Kaya Wilson: Um, so that's how I knew, so I knew her and I went, I trusted her already and I went, that's how I went with her.
• 11:59
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 11:59
  Natasha Rai: And Kaya, even though you might've known her, it still comes down to the quality of your work.
• 12:03
  Natasha Rai: Like she's not going to just say yes, because she knows you.
• 12:06
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Kaya Wilson: And she has said no to me before.
• 12:08
  Kaya Wilson: So like there, I did have a novel that she was like, it's the voice is wrong.
• 12:11
  Kaya Wilson: It's not, it doesn't work.
• 12:12
  Kaya Wilson: Um, so like, yeah, I also trust that she will say no to me, which is quite good.
• 12:17
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 12:18
  Kaya Wilson: Having said that I have introduced other people to her, um, or.
• 12:23
  Kaya Wilson: And, or tried to, and then she said, just tell them to email me on my website.
• 12:28
  Kaya Wilson: And I'm like, well, okay.
• 12:29
  Kaya Wilson: So that's how people get her anyway.
• 12:32
  Kaya Wilson: So me having an introduction.
• 12:35
  Kaya Wilson: So, okay.
• 12:35
  Kaya Wilson: I have introduced several people to her.
• 12:37
  Kaya Wilson: Some people, she was like, she was just like, just tell them to email me.
• 12:40
  Kaya Wilson: So that's like her blanket response.
• 12:42
  Kaya Wilson: One of them was a friend who she didn't took on, um, whose book I had read.
• 12:47
  Kaya Wilson: And then there was another one, which I think is one of the most brilliant books.
• 12:52
  Kaya Wilson: That's coming out with a different publisher in New York or with a publisher in New York anyway this year and she said no, she was too busy.
• 13:00
  Kaya Wilson: So whatever's on her website, if you email her and she says I'm too busy, she means it.
• 13:06
  Kaya Wilson: Okay.
• 13:06
  Kaya Wilson: So my point what I'm trying to make is that whatever she says to me is the same as what she says to a random person approaching her.
• 13:12
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Kaya Wilson: So.
• 13:15
  Kaya Wilson: Although I knew her already, and she had a social obligation to at least respond to me, she still also responds to strangers.
• 13:23
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, she tells the truth.
• 13:24
  Natasha Rai: Like she tells, I mean, she tells the same thing.
• 13:26
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, it's not a special treatment or something.
• 13:28
  Kaya Wilson: The only thing it meant is I didn't shop around.
• 13:30
  Natasha Rai: Hmm.
• 13:31
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and.
• 13:32
  Kaya Wilson: Like, I haven't made tons of money in writing, but like my first offer for my memoir, um, she bargained it up to an amount that exactly covered her, her cut.
• 13:45
  Kaya Wilson: So I don't know, I've already, she's, she's paid away already.
• 13:51
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Natasha Rai: I did.
• 13:52
  Natasha Rai: So, so you had Jane on your side and then she pitched you for the Me Too.
• 13:57
  Natasha Rai: Anthology.
• 13:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:00
  Kaya Wilson: Um, she said, do you have anything you could put in here?
• 14:02
  Kaya Wilson: Oh, I see.
• 14:02
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 14:03
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 14:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:05
  Natasha Rai: And then after that, you sent her your, uh, kind of.
• 14:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:13
  Kaya Wilson: Well, you know, after that, then I, um, I actually sent her some of the early drafts.
• 14:19
  Kaya Wilson: So this is what I'm writing.
• 14:21
  Kaya Wilson: And she was like, great, get back to me when you've got a full length book.
• 14:25
  Kaya Wilson: And that was actually one of the key bits of advice, which I've continued to use.
• 14:30
  Kaya Wilson: It's a, I'd say less advice than a strategy.
• 14:33
  Kaya Wilson: And it's to write your full text, have creative control, um, and then submit it.
• 14:41
  Kaya Wilson: Um, because if you submit, for me particularly, that's what worked.
• 14:44
  Kaya Wilson: I don't actually give that advice to everyone.
• 14:47
  Kaya Wilson: But if you, you know, say, submit a few chapters and then you get a deal, they can often want to influence your creative direction.
• 14:53
  Natasha Rai: Oh, I see.
• 14:54
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:54
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:55
  Natasha Rai: This must be very difficult if you're writing memoir.
• 14:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:57
  Natasha Rai: Because it's your life, right?
• 14:58
  Kaya Wilson: I know, right?
• 14:59
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 15:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:00
  Kaya Wilson: And like, sometimes it can probably be gentle.
• 15:03
  Kaya Wilson: I mean, I heard about Kate Holden's.
• 15:06
  Kaya Wilson: Um, publisher talk about shirt in my skin.
• 15:08
  Kaya Wilson: She's about about, um, uh, what do you call it?
• 15:12
  Kaya Wilson: Maybe.
• 15:14
  Kaya Wilson: middle class heroin addiction story, uh, or sex work, like sort of sensitive issues.
• 15:19
  Kaya Wilson: And her publisher said, um, I want your mom to be in every chapter.
• 15:25
  Kaya Wilson: I was like, Oh God.
• 15:27
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but like, you know, so that's, I guess, gentle or advice that, um, maybe really worked, but like, That creative control was important to me and, and, and since then when people have tried to tell me how to solve a literary problem, it just doesn't work.
• 15:46
  Kaya Wilson: I'm really happy taking advice on the problems, but I need to come up with the solutions.
• 15:50
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 15:51
  Natasha Rai: Well it's your work.
• 15:53
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, right.
• 15:54
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Steve Minon: Hello, my name's Steve Minon and I've written a novel called First name, second name, which is about four generations of two migrant families, one Chinese and one Scottish who come to Australia and become one.
• 16:11
  Steve Minon: The protagonist is a corpse who is on a nocturnal pilgrimage back to the town of his birth in far north Queensland.
• 16:19
  Steve Minon: I started writing First Name, Second Name when I discovered that my own second name, family name, was an anglicised amalgamation of two first names.
• 16:29
  Steve Minon: And it bothered me that my ancestors had allowed this to happen, and it made me think about what a migrant is prepared to lose when they come to Australia and are so keen to fit in.
• 16:38
  Steve Minon: And so the book is a reckoning with the past, and it is about intergenerational trauma.
• 16:43
  Steve Minon: It's about navigating a mixed race existence where one race is more accepted than the other.
• 16:48
  Steve Minon: But it's also about being an eternal outsider, because the protagonist is on a search for his sexual identity, and this causes a family estrangement.
• 16:58
  Steve Minon: It's complex, but it has been described by Michael Muhammad Ahmed as being a portrait of who we are now and who we are destined to become.
• 17:07
  Steve Minon: And that's a lot to live up to, but if you get to read it, I really hope you enjoy it.
• 17:11
  Steve Minon: It's out now via UQP.
• 17:17
  Natasha Rai: What happened after you, after you kind of got it into a form that you were happy with and she felt was ready for submission?
• 17:24
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, so first up, that took longer than one wants it to.
• 17:27
  Kaya Wilson: I was pretty impatient and that just took longer than I wanted it and too bad.
• 17:31
  Kaya Wilson: Okay.
• 17:31
  Kaya Wilson: That's what happened.
• 17:32
  Kaya Wilson: So then she is kinda like a matchmaker, right?
• 17:35
  Kaya Wilson: So she picks.
• 17:37
  Kaya Wilson: Um, a publisher who she thinks will understand and honor the work, uh, with, and work well with the author.
• 17:45
  Kaya Wilson: And she picked Matilda Imla, who was then at Picador, which is an imprint of Pan Macmillan, and she was Um, so I'm missing a step actually.
• 17:59
  Kaya Wilson: So she picked her, but also in the meantime, I applied for every single emerging writer, competition, event, fellowship that I, that I could find.
• 18:12
  Kaya Wilson: And I was shortlisted for a bunch of them.
• 18:14
  Kaya Wilson: I ended up winning the only one that had no money.
• 18:16
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but in the end, it was a great deal.
• 18:24
  Kaya Wilson: And what.
• 18:25
  Kaya Wilson: Part of what the fellowship offered.
• 18:27
  Kaya Wilson: Uhhuh um, it was writing New South Wales, uh, UNA Fellowship and it offered weeks at Una and, uh, a manuscript assessment by Matilda Ila with the publisher at Pam Macmillan.
• 18:39
  Kaya Wilson: And then, so she provided the manuscript assessment, I did the, took the feedback that she gave me.
• 18:46
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
• 18:46
  Kaya Wilson: Um, worked on it, and then Jane then resubmitted it to her.
• 18:50
  Natasha Rai: Amazing.
• 18:51
  Natasha Rai: So you already had that connection with her and that.
• 18:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Natasha Rai: And that's really important, isn't it?
• 18:56
  Natasha Rai: Like so many of us competitions, even if there's no money, the opportunity to get in front of a publisher or to have a relationship is so important.
• 19:06
  Kaya Wilson: It's pretty priceless and it also means like, so some of those competitions lock you in or kind of lock you in.
• 19:12
  Kaya Wilson: Right.
• 19:13
  Kaya Wilson: Or, or like, yeah, this was an assessment.
• 19:16
  Kaya Wilson: Great, knew who I was.
• 19:17
  Kaya Wilson: And then, yeah, you're not anonymous when you do send it.
• 19:21
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 19:22
  Natasha Rai: And so after she resubmitted it, um, did you have like a long wait?
• 19:26
  Natasha Rai: Like, how did that play out?
• 19:29
  Kaya Wilson: That is hard to think about.
• 19:31
  Kaya Wilson: Um, I, I couldn't tell you how long it was.
• 19:36
  Kaya Wilson: It would have been less than a month.
• 19:38
  Kaya Wilson: Okay.
• 19:39
  Kaya Wilson: That's pretty good.
• 19:41
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, I think that is pretty good.
• 19:42
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, I think industry standard is probably within six weeks, but I'm sure there's plenty that go over.
• 19:50
  Kaya Wilson: I've had some go over actually recently, so.
• 19:55
  Natasha Rai: And it was a yes.
• 19:57
  Natasha Rai: It was a yes, which was, it was magic.
• 19:58
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 19:58
  Kaya Wilson: So that was also a beautiful experience.
• 20:00
  Kaya Wilson: It was like, okay, it all, it was like, it was very stepped.
• 20:03
  Kaya Wilson: So it was like, okay, enter the competition and get the thing.
• 20:06
  Kaya Wilson: Have that relationship, work on it, take your time, resubmit, and it was like, okay, you lay the ground, and then it was a yes.
• 20:13
  Kaya Wilson: So, in a, in one sense, um, the, the, I didn't get a no, I didn't experience a no with that first book, but like, it was almost like, the groundwork had really been laid.
• 20:28
  Kaya Wilson: So like any opportunity for a no would have known about ahead of time.
• 20:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:33
  Natasha Rai: And you did all that important work by entering those competitions as well.
• 20:36
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 20:36
  Kaya Wilson: And I guess some of those were almost like no's.
• 20:39
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but in a way it, like, it felt smooth, even though it was a sort of cumulative kind of process.
• 20:46
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Natasha Rai: And what was the kind of process like once you got that offer?
• 20:51
  Natasha Rai: Was there more, another few rounds of editing?
• 20:54
  Kaya Wilson: Yes.
• 20:55
  Kaya Wilson: So yeah, there was actually quite a big, cause I was like, great, done.
• 20:58
  Kaya Wilson: Sweet.
• 21:00
  Kaya Wilson: No.
• 21:01
  Kaya Wilson: Also, I was like, okay, well, so now I just like collect my check.
• 21:07
  Natasha Rai: Open my champagne.
• 21:11
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and although it's, I do think it's something actually Liz Duck Chong has said to me, like, it's really important to celebrate each milestone.
• 21:19
  Kaya Wilson: Uh, and I really try to honor that, which is nice because you're always on to the next thing.
• 21:22
  Kaya Wilson: So it's always good to like stop and go, okay, yeah, great.
• 21:25
  Kaya Wilson: Let's, let's open that champagne or whatever it is.
• 21:28
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:29
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and.
• 21:33
  Kaya Wilson: Okay, so then they read it, then they sent it to, they were actually on two, there were two main editors.
• 21:43
  Kaya Wilson: So there was like one person who did like, cool, like a deep edit.
• 21:47
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and then there was another person who kind of did another type of edit and then there was a line edit.
• 21:54
  Kaya Wilson: So the deep edit.
• 21:57
  Kaya Wilson: Was pretty full on, um, and require quite a lot of work after that.
• 22:03
  Kaya Wilson: And I'd say, you know, probably had it for six weeks or so, but like working on it quite a lot weekends then.
• 22:15
  Kaya Wilson: So I'd say maybe three or four rounds of edits.
• 22:19
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:20
  Natasha Rai: And just, just on that, given how some writers can feel quite.
• 22:25
  Natasha Rai: not precious, but very protective of their manuscripts, and it's fiction.
• 22:30
  Natasha Rai: How was that process for you being?
• 22:32
  Kaya Wilson: So for me, the process of editing, um, just for context, I was actually doing it the same time I was like finishing my PhD, which is also being edited.
• 22:43
  Kaya Wilson: Um, God.
• 22:45
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Kaya Wilson: And Honestly, I had a very sensitive, gentle editor for the, for the memoir that was honestly like light and day between the PhD where they just kind of, they've got no qualms with red pen or telling you you're wrong.
• 23:01
  Kaya Wilson: Okay.
• 23:03
  Kaya Wilson: It was actually the edit.
• 23:04
  Kaya Wilson: So for me, the editing process was.
• 23:06
  Kaya Wilson: Really great actually felt collaborative.
• 23:08
  Kaya Wilson: It felt like a little bit of a relief that was being taken care of and there's like publishing world.
• 23:12
  Kaya Wilson: So, yeah, so the editing was lovely.
• 23:15
  Kaya Wilson: It was much more of an emotional, difficult, emotionally difficult thing when I did a legal edit.
• 23:21
  Kaya Wilson: So, for me, because I name and talk about real people that aren't me, legal edit was quite hardcore.
• 23:31
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and.
• 23:33
  Kaya Wilson: So a lawyer literally said you like, like highlighted certain things and said, either you can't say this or you need to change it, or this is true, but it sounds a bit like you mean something else.
• 23:47
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 23:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and.
• 23:50
  Kaya Wilson: That felt, uh, that was difficult because it was very much about telling my truth.
• 23:57
  Kaya Wilson: And so when someone says, Oh, you can't tell your truth, that was a lot harder.
• 24:04
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:04
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and then I sort of settled it in the sense of I'm telling my emotional truth.
• 24:12
  Natasha Rai: Nice.
• 24:13
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:13
  Natasha Rai: I like that.
• 24:15
  Natasha Rai: And, um, when did your memoir get put out into the world?
• 24:20
  Kaya Wilson: It's 2021.
• 24:23
  Kaya Wilson: Um, my first event was Sydney Writers Festival, which I think was May.
• 24:28
  Natasha Rai: Oh, that's a big one.
• 24:29
  Kaya Wilson: It was a big one.
• 24:31
  Kaya Wilson: Sure.
• 24:31
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 24:32
  Kaya Wilson: So that, like, that was a lot.
• 24:34
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but it was cool.
• 24:35
  Kaya Wilson: It was really cool.
• 24:36
  Kaya Wilson: I was paired with, like, it was such a wild experience.
• 24:39
  Kaya Wilson: Like, I think back on it now, it was probably my wildest, like, Writer Festival events ever.
• 24:44
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and it was my first, uh, so that was really exciting.
• 24:49
  Kaya Wilson: Also, it just felt very cool, having gone to Sydney Writers Festival many times, it felt awesome being in it.
• 24:55
  Kaya Wilson: And also, you're sort of guaranteed a bit of an audience, which, um, well, I don't know if you are, but it felt like I was.
• 25:02
  Kaya Wilson: And I was like, I'm, I'm like, honestly, I'm sort of scared to even throw parties for myself.
• 25:07
  Kaya Wilson: Like, I just don't have that particular confidence angle or whatever it is.
• 25:13
  Kaya Wilson: Um, so yeah, I just.
• 25:16
  Kaya Wilson: I was like, Oh God, it was, it was nerve wracking.
• 25:20
  Kaya Wilson: And like, when we're talking about the, the, I guess like the confidence rainbow, I'm pretty confident on stage and that's not, that's okay for me.
• 25:29
  Kaya Wilson: But like the, the kind of experience of putting it into the world just added a whole different corner of the rainbow.
• 25:37
  Kaya Wilson: That was really Nerve wracking.
• 25:39
  Kaya Wilson: Yes.
• 25:40
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 25:41
  Kaya Wilson: And a lot of anxiety.
• 25:41
  Kaya Wilson: And, you know, you go to this like hotel and it's like such a cool hotel and like everyone's making a huge deal out of everything.
• 25:50
  Kaya Wilson: You know, the programs there, there's like super famous people in the hotel, you know, and then you like go to the event and you're in the green room and I was just like trying to do my breathing and.
• 26:00
  Kaya Wilson: You know, someone comes up to me and they're like chatting and they were like, relaxed and I'm trying to just like, hold it together.
• 26:07
  Natasha Rai: Trying to keep it together.
• 26:08
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 26:08
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 26:09
  Kaya Wilson: And it's like wild event with someone who'd written a book about, um, uh, donor babies.
• 26:15
  Kaya Wilson: So, um, so children who are conceived using, uh, donate, donated egg or sperm or whatever combination.
• 26:25
  Kaya Wilson: And she was very anti.
• 26:27
  Kaya Wilson: donor babies and she had been a donor baby herself but hadn't known about it until she was a grown up and so she had quite a lot of um, she had a lot of emotional baggage about the whole experience but then I was like this queer writer and then we were being moderated by Maeve Marsden who yeah literally she's lovely she's awesome and I'm so like no one else would have been to handle this And because she is both a donor baby and was pregnant with a donor baby at that moment.
• 26:57
  Kaya Wilson: And then this like journalist who was really anti the whole thing and then like me and I was just so relieved it was Maeve, um, who I was familiar with and I just knew would be able to do it.
• 27:06
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 27:07
  Kaya Wilson: Um, God, what an experience.
• 27:09
  Kaya Wilson: I know.
• 27:09
  Kaya Wilson: It was like, It was spicy and the questions were wild and it was a super queer audience because of me and Maeve, I guess.
• 27:17
  Kaya Wilson: And then, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was full on, but the, but then like the party afterwards was great, you know,
• 27:25
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 27:25
  Natasha Rai: Get rid of all that tension at the party.
• 27:26
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:29
  Natasha Rai: And so you've mentioned, Kaya, that you've just submitted your next manuscript.
• 27:34
  Natasha Rai: Is that fiction?
• 27:36
  Kaya Wilson: It is fiction.
• 27:38
  Natasha Rai: What can you say about that?
• 27:40
  Kaya Wilson: I'm like really comfortable talking about it.
• 27:42
  Kaya Wilson: I don't have a problem doing that.
• 27:45
  Kaya Wilson: I don't know if there's like reasons why you shouldn't.
• 27:48
  Natasha Rai: I don't know either.
• 27:48
  Natasha Rai: I've always been curious when writers are like, I can't talk about it.
• 27:51
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, why not?
• 27:53
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 27:53
  Kaya Wilson: I mean, I'm not under some kind of like, doesn't have a deal yet.
• 27:56
  Kaya Wilson: So it's not like I'm under some kind of, I don't know.
• 27:58
  Kaya Wilson: Also, it's not like state secrets.
• 28:00
  Kaya Wilson: Do you know what I mean?
• 28:01
  Kaya Wilson: This is, this is just.
• 28:02
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 28:03
  Kaya Wilson: Um, yes, I've written a novel, it's, um, it's young adult classic coming of age tale.
• 28:12
  Kaya Wilson: It's a bit of a riff off Romeo and Juliet with like a young queer character who, um, living their life and then goes off to tropical fruits festival up in Lismore and explores themselves, their body, other people's bodies, and, and has a wild time in a fairly like safe community situation, basically.
• 28:32
  Natasha Rai: Awesome.
• 28:33
  Natasha Rai: And so how was that experience for you writing something like, you know, fiction?
• 28:38
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, it was, it was a totally different experience.
• 28:43
  Kaya Wilson: I'd describe it as joyous.
• 28:45
  Kaya Wilson: Like, it was really fun.
• 28:47
  Kaya Wilson: I was super strategic in how I set that out as well.
• 28:51
  Kaya Wilson: Like, I just feel like I'm in a place in my life where I'm a bit more in control of how my life works.
• 28:56
  Kaya Wilson: I, uh, very intentionally, um, worked out how to apply for a grant with Arts ACT and, you know, did a lot of work and research into how I could optimize it and how much I should ask for.
• 29:09
  Kaya Wilson: And I, I ended up getting a grant.
• 29:12
  Natasha Rai: Congratulations.
• 29:13
  Natasha Rai: Awesome.
• 29:13
  Kaya Wilson: Thanks.
• 29:14
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 29:14
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 29:14
  Kaya Wilson: So it was 25, 000, which is not to be sneezed at and much more than any advance.
• 29:20
  Kaya Wilson: Um, probably ever going to get.
• 29:21
  Kaya Wilson: So, um, yeah, I got that, went four days a week at my day job.
• 29:27
  Kaya Wilson: Uh, so wrote one day a week, which is a formula that worked for me with my memoir.
• 29:31
  Kaya Wilson: At the time I was doing a PhD, so I had a bit more control over my time, but yeah, so this time I just, yeah, went four days a week, uh, got a mentorship with Katherine Hayman.
• 29:40
  Natasha Rai: Oh, yes.
• 29:41
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, a bit of an icon.
• 29:43
  Kaya Wilson: And, um, yeah, so did the mentorship, wrote, wrote the book, um, also did for the first time I really looked at books on creativity, um, books on plot and storytelling and, you know, Creativity in general.
• 30:00
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and that was a really kind of cool experience.
• 30:04
  Kaya Wilson: And it just felt honestly very playful and fun.
• 30:08
  Kaya Wilson: And like I had a license to kind of do whatever I wanted and I loved it.
• 30:13
  Kaya Wilson: I had a great time.
• 30:14
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 30:14
  Natasha Rai: How wonderful.
• 30:15
  Natasha Rai: And actually I was going to ask you about how you.
• 30:18
  Natasha Rai: Balance work and writing.
• 30:19
  Natasha Rai: But it sounds like, as you said, you were very strategic and figured out what you needed to do, which was the extra day, right?
• 30:24
  Natasha Rai: Or that one day.
• 30:25
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:25
  Kaya Wilson: It works for me.
• 30:26
  Kaya Wilson: I need to have that dedicated time.
• 30:29
  Kaya Wilson: I don't work well if I'm flipping and flopping between lots of other things.
• 30:33
  Kaya Wilson: I can't just like take lunch, break and do Right.
• 30:36
  Kaya Wilson: Right.
• 30:37
  Kaya Wilson: I mean, I can sort of try, but it doesn't suit me.
• 30:39
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 30:39
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and I think also, especially for fiction, well, for me anyway, there's this kind of concept of shutting everything out so you can have freedom.
• 30:48
  Kaya Wilson: And like, I just have to like, really, like life is pressurized for everyone.
• 30:53
  Kaya Wilson: Right.
• 30:53
  Kaya Wilson: And to do creative work under pressure just wasn't going to work for me.
• 31:01
  Kaya Wilson: And so I just needed to totally, uh, isolate time so that I could.
• 31:07
  Kaya Wilson: Really play and, um, create something without a kind of, without that sort of pressure, you know, it's hard to describe having read these creativity books.
• 31:20
  Kaya Wilson: Now, like, I'm starting to understand.
• 31:22
  Kaya Wilson: That's what helped it.
• 31:24
  Kaya Wilson: It helped me with my practice was more than with the content, um, and creating a writing practice is something I really understand now.
• 31:33
  Kaya Wilson: And it's It's so important, I think.
• 31:36
  Natasha Rai: So does that mean that before you started writing this particular manuscript, you didn't have a dedicated writing practice?
• 31:43
  Kaya Wilson: Well, I say I came and went.
• 31:44
  Kaya Wilson: So like when I was doing my PhD, I was writing my memoir.
• 31:46
  Kaya Wilson: I did do, I wrote, I wrote, wrote on Mondays.
• 31:49
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but no one was stopping me, you know, like no one was watching over my shoulder, whereas now I'm like, you know, I work for an environmental consultancy and my time is charged by the hour.
• 31:59
  Kaya Wilson: So I have to deliver 8 hours of work a day.
• 32:03
  Kaya Wilson: Um, so yeah, I had that one day a week practice during my PhD.
• 32:08
  Kaya Wilson: After I finished my PhD and I was working full time, I didn't have a practice in that sense.
• 32:12
  Kaya Wilson: I sort of did here and there, one at a time off on weekends.
• 32:17
  Kaya Wilson: Then when I got back to that Four days a week working one day a week writing.
• 32:21
  Kaya Wilson: I was like, okay, this is it.
• 32:23
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Kaya Wilson: And that has worked.
• 32:26
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 32:27
  Natasha Rai: So are you going to try and keep that practice going or are you back to full time work?
• 32:32
  Kaya Wilson: Well, well, well spent the grant now.
• 32:36
  Kaya Wilson: Um, but I just couldn't bring myself to go back to five days a week.
• 32:40
  Kaya Wilson: Like I was like, I just thought about it.
• 32:42
  Kaya Wilson: I tried to like visualize it.
• 32:44
  Kaya Wilson: I can't do it and I can afford it.
• 32:47
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and I was like, this is a privilege that I am going to enjoy.
• 32:51
  Kaya Wilson: And so I just work four days a week still.
• 32:54
  Kaya Wilson: And that fifth day I either do an adventure, like go, like this weekend going canoeing, or I'll do writing from writing mode, or I might use it, um, to go to an event, say a writer's festival or something.
• 33:08
  Kaya Wilson: But I do whatever it is.
• 33:10
  Kaya Wilson: I can't try and keep it intentional.
• 33:12
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I really like that.
• 33:14
  Kaya Wilson: Don't do laundry.
• 33:15
  Kaya Wilson: What I'm trying to say is don't do boring stuff.
• 33:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:19
  Natasha Rai: You've got five other, six other days in fact to do that.
• 33:22
  Natasha Rai: Um, and also in terms of when you started to write that, this manuscript, um, Romeo A Tale of Four Charms, I really love the title.
• 33:30
  Kaya Wilson: Awesome.
• 33:30
  Natasha Rai: Um, did you feel any pressure or any type of, I don't know, worry or fear or misgivings about, you know, moving from forms, memoir to fiction?
• 33:44
  Kaya Wilson: Honestly, I didn't really, I didn't think about it.
• 33:47
  Kaya Wilson: I mean, what, you know, having tried to very intentionally take on a creative practice, I just, and, and, and having, although I have one day a week, it still feels like only one day a week.
• 34:01
  Kaya Wilson: Um, and I'm only going to spend it doing something that truly drives me.
• 34:05
  Kaya Wilson: Like writing a book is hard and.
• 34:08
  Kaya Wilson: It has, you have to have something sustaining you and so I just went with the thing that stirred my, my soul.
• 34:16
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:17
  Kaya Wilson: So I wasn't nervous about moving to fiction at all.
• 34:20
  Kaya Wilson: And then when I like submitted it to my agent, she was like, Oh, this is great.
• 34:25
  Kaya Wilson: She was like, Oh, I was a bit worried because moving from memoir to fiction is really hard.
• 34:29
  Kaya Wilson: And I was like, Oh, um, I didn't know that.
• 34:32
  Natasha Rai: So it sounds like either, you know, cause having spoken to lots of different emerging writers and debut writers, some of us, and I did at one point as well, there's a real sense of urgency.
• 34:48
  Natasha Rai: Like, Oh my God, if I don't write this thing, or if I don't grab this opportunity, it's gone forever.
• 34:54
  Natasha Rai: But it sounds like.
• 34:56
  Natasha Rai: You don't have that, or you, you've figured out how to write that?
• 35:01
  Kaya Wilson: I absolutely have a sense of urgency, um, but I don't, but I try and keep it out the door when I'm writing, if that makes sense.
• 35:09
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 35:10
  Kaya Wilson: So I use, probably channel that urgency.
• 35:13
  Kaya Wilson: We're trying to channel that urgency into planning, or, you know, getting those grant dates, or, um, that kind of thing.
• 35:23
  Kaya Wilson: And then I don't, I try to.
• 35:26
  Kaya Wilson: sort of negotiate with it when it's things like, oh, this is really topical and he's getting out now, you know, but I had no control over that.
• 35:32
  Kaya Wilson: So yeah, I, yeah, I do have that sense of urgency in many ways, but I definitely try and keep it out, out of the door.
• 35:41
  Natasha Rai: And it sounds like you've gotten quite good at channeling it into things you can do like g rant submissions.
• 35:46
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 35:47
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Kaya Wilson: And like those things are hard and Uh, artists are always bad at them usually, but you've got to like, I don't know, try and like use your skills.
• 35:56
  Kaya Wilson: Like I'm 40 now, I've accumulated other skills, I can do admin and like, yeah, so try and channel that kind of logistical energy into that.
• 36:06
  Natasha Rai: So we are actually nearly out of time and you've actually given me lots and lots of good tips, but, uh, the final question I have is, do you have any top tip or tips for any, for emerging writers?
• 36:19
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, I mean, when I have said those things in response to your questions, you know, I think about, oh, well, that's what Stephen King talked about, you know, right?
• 36:28
  Kaya Wilson: The first draft with the door closed, second draft, the door open.
• 36:32
  Kaya Wilson: Um, it was kind of helpful conceptually, but I say the most helpful thing.
• 36:37
  Kaya Wilson: I think is developing that practice.
• 36:40
  Kaya Wilson: So, um, lots of people will tell you what works for them or they will tell you what is absolutely you must do.
• 36:47
  Kaya Wilson: But it is about what works for you.
• 36:49
  Kaya Wilson: So if you, um, if you've got small Children or whatever.
• 36:53
  Kaya Wilson: Working 5 a.
• 36:54
  Kaya Wilson: m.
• 36:54
  Kaya Wilson: 7 a.
• 36:55
  Kaya Wilson: m.
• 36:55
  Kaya Wilson: might be your time for practice or, or like, you just have to work it out so that you, you come to the table, you come to the desk or the, or whatever it is with regularity, however short or infrequent it is to just.
• 37:12
  Kaya Wilson: Or not some commitment that in a way that works for you.
• 37:17
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 37:17
  Natasha Rai: Because I think people get trapped into the comparison.
• 37:21
  Natasha Rai: Like, oh, well, so and so can write five days a week, but I can only write two.
• 37:24
  Natasha Rai: It doesn't matter.
• 37:26
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 37:27
  Kaya Wilson: You just got to find that practice and like you will make progress even if it is incremental.
• 37:31
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 37:32
  Natasha Rai: Progress is progress,
• 37:33
  Kaya Wilson: right?
• 37:33
  Kaya Wilson: Exactly.
• 37:34
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Natasha Rai: Well, thank you so much.
• 37:37
  Natasha Rai: It's been absolutely delightful having this chat with you.
• 37:40
  Kaya Wilson: Me too.
• 37:41
  Kaya Wilson: I really enjoyed it.
• 37:42
  Kaya Wilson: The only thing I have to hold back is I want to ask you too, I want to know what your practice is.
• 37:46
  Natasha Rai: We'll do that offline.
• 37:47
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 37:48
  Natasha Rai: Um, but honestly, best of luck with your, um, manuscript and, um, I hope it's not long before we see it on shelves.
• 37:54
  Kaya Wilson: Yeah, neither.
• 37:55
  Kaya Wilson: Neither.
• 37:56
  Kaya Wilson: Thank you so much.
• 37:56
  Kaya Wilson: It was a real pleasure.
• 37:57
  Natasha Rai: Thanks, Kaya.
• 37:58
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 38:01
  Tina Strachan: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new eps drop.
• 38:08
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