Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 399: The Cost of the Wrong Hire with Brandon Bailey and Matthew Barnes

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Episode 399: The Cost of the Wrong Hire with Brandon Bailey and Matthew Barnes · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  there's data that says that, you know, mis hire can cost 200% of an executive salary. Right. But I think that's only capturing tangible cost. I mean there's so many other additional hidden costs in terms of eroding culture momentum, executing against the strategy and building belief. And then, you know, there's so many different things that start to erode when leaders leave or when you make the wrong hire.
• 0:33
  Welcome to The Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by AMP plus. Really excited about our conversation today for a couple of reasons. As we have, put out there on social, hopefully everybody that listens to the growth project and kind of follows.
• 0:49
  And plus we recently, just in the last couple months, actually launched an executive search component of our service offerings. And this is something that we have been really interested in pursuing for quite a while now for so many reasons. It's such a valuable service. It complements what we do so well. And I think it's frankly been, an open loop in us trying to be as comprehensive as we can be in what we're doing, with an employer.
• 1:23
  So recently, ad executive search, and with that, welcomed Matt Barnes and Brandon Bailey to our team to exact search bids. And so excited about this conversation today. We're going to be diving into,
• 1:36
  all things executive search. You know, it's interesting.
• 1:39
  I think plenty of people don't yet understand exactly really, what that means. They don't understand the value of it, the importance of it when it comes to talent strategies.
• 1:49
  So before we get into it too deeply, I'm going to kick it to you guys. To talk a little bit about your backgrounds. And I want our listeners to be aware of, like, who they're really hearing from today.
• 2:00
  also please touch on, why executive search, you know, as you kind of paved your way and figured out career path, why ultimately was a exact search.
• 2:11
  Thanks, drew. It's it's good to be a part of the employers team and family. As you mentioned. And I'm sure we'll cover this in more detail, but very complimentary to the things you guys were already doing.
• 2:23
  yeah. Brandon Bailey, I'm in Charlotte and have spent the last 14 years in recruiting slash executive search. Started my my career out of school in sales, B2B, small business, telecom sales, very transactional. And frankly had no idea kind of where I was at. I was an athlete, wanted to be in a competitive environment and sales commission based sales was, attractive and, but very quickly got tired of the transactional, like sell to a customer and then never talk to them again.
• 3:05
  Type structure and situation. And so had some friends in recruiting and sort of stumbled into it, which I think a lot of folks in the industry fall into it. No one goes to school or grows up saying, I want to go recruit people for companies.
• 3:21
  But found my way into it. Accounting and finance recruiting early kind of mid to senior level.
• 3:28
  And then very quickly,
• 3:30
  sort of repositioned into the executive level search, helped build out Tatum to the Ron Scott backed company. Where we cut our teeth and spent a number of years serving middle market customers especially. I'm sure we'll talk about this as well, but especially private equity backed middle market companies hired,
• 3:55
  executive teams.
• 3:57
  Awesome.
• 3:58
  Okay. And your, we also know this about you. You, unfortunately, are a long suffering Atlanta Falcons fan, right?
• 4:05
  I am unfortunately or fortunately, you know, holding out hope. A Falcons fan. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're not going to take it easy any easier on Matt, whose NC State Wolfpack recently got off to a little bit of a sluggish start, to begin the college football season.
• 4:22
  So Matt. Yeah, we'll start there if that's okay. That was a little restart there. And yeah, that's it. Matt. Matt, tell us a little bit about your background and how you made it into this, line of work. Yeah. Not and appreciate you having me, drew. I'm happy to be a part of the team.
• 4:36
  Brennan and I, you know, our our careers overlapped the last 14, 15 years.
• 4:40
  But like he mentioned, you know, I don't think people necessarily chart out a path for this. Prior to to getting in the industry, I worked in New York in the financial services industry and, you know, rode that along through the Great Recession. And. 0809,
• 4:55
  cut my teeth on a desk early on.
• 4:57
  what interested me as I started learning about the business is just the people side of it.
• 5:02
  As we gain more experience, you know, kind of work our way up a food chain from an org chart. I really enjoyed learning about companies and talking to the successful executives. You know, at the time, candidly, I probably shouldn't have been, you know, moving that far because I didn't really know what I was doing. But, I learned the value of people being open to conversations and wanting to help other people.
• 5:24
  And it was a perfect segue for me to transition into the executive search function to help understand businesses outside of what they need in a job description. You know, what is actually going on inside an organization to help identify a fit? And I you mentioned my sports teams. I think I have a better percentage and, you know, helping find the right person than I do finding winning sports teams because I happen to be a and that's an Jets fan on top of it.
• 5:51
  But you know happy to be here and look forward to the conversation.
• 5:55
  You did have a pretty successful NHL season now, correct? That's true. I was just trying to keep the theme going there of, the bad sports teams, but I'm a very, large hurricanes fan, too. So, so basking in the glory of that.
• 6:08
  Okay, good. Yeah. Well-earned. All right, guys, so let's kind of start here. And I think it's important before we can have an effective conversation about really the importance and the intricacies of executive search. Brandon, let's start with you on this one, please. And can you just talk like let's let's set the stage. So when we say executive search, what are we even talking about?
• 6:33
  first and foremost, and maybe this is the most obvious part, is that it is a recruiting process designed to attract and ultimately lead to hiring, right, senior and executive level talent for an organization. I think, what is unique and I think where the value lies in running an executive search process through a firm like ours is that that process tends to be very structured, research driven and designed beyond just,
• 7:13
  capturing talent.
• 7:14
  Right? It's
• 7:15
  specifically targeting talent that is best suited, kind of best fit profile beyond just technical skills for an organization, an organization at their maturity level and someone who can lead them where they're also wanting to go. So it's a bigger picture. When I say research, it's not just background profile experience. It's, you know, does this person bring the strengths that will position an organization, on the path of where they're headed?
• 7:54
  Right. So all of that is taken into account as opposed to, you know, pattern matching for requirements, you know, and so there's the the process by definition that you're talking about. And then I think it's also important to kind of unpack the fact that, you know, you guys specialize in focusing on roles that are highly impactful throughout the organization.
• 8:21
  All right. So so, Matt, you know, as we think about the way we define it, it's kind of as you guys have said, C-suite and C minus one. Like, can you talk a little bit about why those roles are so vital to the organization? And then even maybe as well touch on like, what do we know about the the challenges and the cost associated with when you lose someone in a role like that and, and sometimes you make that the organization makes that decision.
• 8:51
  Sometimes we're exiting an individual. But talk a little bit about just the critical importance of those roles, and then the expense of needing to find a new person. Yeah. You know, Brian and I often talk about this, you know, just on the side as we're, you know, talking shop, but at least in the context of private equity, when we talk about that is like how much money is invested in a platform, you know, whether it's in early stage or later on.
• 9:17
  Yeah. The the due diligence that firms will do prior to purchasing a business is, is exponential. Once that transition happens and they purchase the company, a lot of times the the search depending on a firm can be very just transactional to, to Brendan's earlier point and the amount of research that should go into a candidate, you know, the technical skills, rightfully so, are screened.
• 9:44
  Right. We need to know that the individual has that. But and the strategy can be there from the sponsor. But the things that come after the fact, in terms of the person's capability to lead others to more of the EQ side of things, and we we always want to screen on top of the technical acumen, to look at what experience do they have building a team we know, what experience do they have?
• 10:08
  What kind of references that references do they have from people that have reported to them? To get a really comprehensive view on an executive's background outside of number of acquisitions and number of companies potentially sold. You know, to your point about, you know, what happens when somebody doesn't work out in a role, you know, especially in the example of private equity.
• 10:30
  And it can be in any role in any company. But an investment thesis has a finite timeline on it, especially in the private equity world where they want to transact on a business and 3 to 5 six years. You make the wrong hire persons there six months to a year. You're resetting the clock on that. Sometimes with damage that could have been done in that time of of a year's time frame, where, you know, you are really pushing out a horizon from getting a return to your shareholders and LPs, and that can be catastrophic in some areas.
• 11:03
  I think there's data that says that, you know, mis hire can cost 200% of an executive salary. Right. But I think that's only capturing tangible cost. I mean there's so many other additional hidden costs in terms of eroding culture momentum, executing against the strategy and building belief. And then, you know, there's so many different things that start to erode when leaders leave or when you make the wrong hire.
• 11:34
  if you're thinking about a high performer that's reporting into an executive, if you miss there, you know, you're you're potentially it's a double whammy, right? You put you just layered a leader on top of a high performer that's now probably thinking like, what? What are they thinking right now. They're potentially looking as well.
• 11:55
  And so it's just it becomes a snowball kind of cascading effect of negative impact that's hard to predict. So it's important to get them right. So let's think through this for a second guys. And you know maybe the example is private equity, although it doesn't necessarily have to be. But whether it's private equity or any other organization, you've got plenty of smart people involved.
• 12:20
  I mean that's that's a concern, right? There's no shortage of smart people. They know the industry. They they probably have a great business sense for, how to run the organization. From your perspective, why is it so common for people to your point, Matt, like to do this like deep dive, super intensive due diligence on so many things and yet give so much less thought to the people component of who should be in this seat or that seat.
• 12:50
  Why do you guys see that happen?
• 12:52
  I don't know, honestly.
• 12:54
  to put ourselves in their shoes, I mean, the amount of time and effort that goes into launching a platform and acquiring a company is a lot, you know, depending on a way, a private equity firm is structured, you know, the deal team does that, and then it gets handed over to an Ops team.
• 13:11
  And maybe there's a little bit of a dichotomy there. I don't know.
• 13:14
  But I think in terms of search and where brand and I have been successful, you know, maybe the buying process of it is a little commoditized and they think everybody's the same, but they're not right. And it's about hiring, you know, whether it's a large firm or a firm like ours, like you want to you want to vet the search firm partner, not the firm name, is what I would say, you know, what are they going to do to really peel the onion back as opposed to, okay, we've done this, you know, ten times and we can do it again.
• 13:48
  Yeah. I think your point interesting, right. Regardless of the dynamic, the ownership structure, etc., there's no any stakeholder involved in hiring an executive or any senior leader tends to be accomplished smart.
• 14:04
  In a lot of cases, very experienced, very well versed in a particular industry or that particular business. I think sometimes that is maybe the thing that gets in the way, right, is that you know, how hard can it be to interview someone?
• 14:19
  How hard can it be to identify if this person's strengths align with what we want them to do? And because that but then what you're relying on is pattern sort of matching, right. If they've done X, then they can do y or and innately there's bias, right. It becomes a conversation of do I like this person as opposed to
• 14:44
  can this person really do the job?
• 14:46
  And so I think what a process does, what an executive search process does is it it we're leveraging structured interviews right. So that there's consistency across the board. We're layering in behavioral assessments that provide data points that go beyond you know, behavioral style style interviews
• 15:08
  that both provide additional context and data but also help guard against the bias, right, that innately exists in all of us.
• 15:21
  And we're also and this is the part that maybe oftentimes isn't
• 15:25
  there's not enough thought put in it is we're spending a lot of time on the front end really figuring out what's needed.
• 15:32
  What exists today in the business systems process, people. And from a 360 perspective. Right. What team exists that this person is going to lead?
• 15:42
  What functions and teams cross-functionally are they going to operate with, and how efficient and effective are those organizations? Who's this person going to report to and what how are we going to measure success? And so we're folding in all of that criteria and then using structured interviews. You know, our obviously our experience decade plus of interviewing executives and understanding what good looks like, there's certainly an art to this science.
• 16:11
  And then tapping into the data piece, the technology piece, the assessment piece, leveraging the broader team at AMP, right from an industrial organizational psychology standpoint to add additional context.
• 16:27
  And that is oftentimes we're not bringing that entire arsenal to bear in most cases when people aren't leveraging a firm like ours, right, they're doing it on their own.
• 16:38
  they're making decisions based on vibes, right? For lack of a better way. Saying it this way. Yeah. Okay. So let's go deeper on one part of that that you're referring to. And let's talk about interviewing in more detail. Right. Because,
• 16:50
  you know, I'll just say it this way. I've met very few people who would say they aren't a great interviewer, like, everyone thinks they're great interviewing.
• 16:59
  And, you know, people who are in any type of leadership position really think they're great at interviewing because they think they're supposed to be. And so let's go into that a little bit.
• 17:09
  Matt, when you guys talk about your kind of structured interviewing,
• 17:14
  protocols, methods, can you dive into that a little bit? Like, first of all, what does that mean?
• 17:21
  And then secondly, why is that important?
• 17:23
  most candidates candidly are not that great at it. You know, they'll either ramble but or they can't articulate specifics of what they did to move the needle. And we'll go back and ask them. Now there's going to be things on the resume. Tell me more about that.
• 17:39
  And a lot of times they can't. Now, the ones that can are the ones you know, to your point that are good interviewers, but are going to be the ones that can sit in front of a board and talk about the business. Right. A lot of the resumes look very generic, and maybe that's by design, but our job is to get into that resume and tell me more about this.
• 18:01
  Tell me more about this to either poke holes in their story, because we want to have a healthy level of skepticism when we go into that, but then, you know, then build trust with that person and really have a good understanding of what they've done and what they've accomplished to be able to position them appropriately in front of a customer.
• 18:20
  yeah. And I'd say the foundation of a good interview, like from the beginning, is really score. We built scorecards based on the position profile. Right. So when we're working with a client, defining and scoping their role was sort of narrows down into a more defined sort of target list of sort of ideal profile. That's what we're calling a scorecard.
• 18:40
  Right. So that's going to be a combination of technical competency. Right. But a have you built out and helped to improve reporting discipline. Have you implemented it in ERP system. Have you done x y, Z. Right. Maybe taking a business from a cash to an accrual basis. Right. If we're talking about a CFO of a lower middle market business,
• 19:05
  you know, have you led and developed teams, have you led through and helped execute against that acquisition strategy?
• 19:14
  Right. These are all obvious things and become the buckets in which we're going to start structuring conversation and what we're not doing, particularly at the executive and then senior leader level is going through a checklist of questions and playing interview ping pong. Right. Well, what we're going to get is pre-scripted kind of rehearsed artificial answers. And so we've got to understand where we're wanting to concentrate and really dig in and uncover information.
• 19:46
  But it has to be done conversationally. It has to be done in a way that provides real context. Right. We want to understand where did you when where did you fail and learn? Right? And how are you going to apply that for future reference? Because failing doesn't necessarily disqualify someone's right. And in many cases it makes them a stronger candidate.
• 20:08
  Right. Because we're taking that lesson to the next opportunity. But you can't have that conversation if you don't have any sort of framework to operate. And again, that goes back to the beginning of the search kickoff process and really understanding where is the business, what are we trying to accomplish? What is the dynamic on the team? We'll build the framework and then it becomes our right.
• 20:32
  Then it's can you get this person to let their guard down and have an open dialog related to their motivations, their strengths, their weaknesses, what they want to do next, why they would consider doing this, etc..
• 20:49
  after up to two hours, sometimes we'll spend with these people. Like there's by the time they get in front of a customer, there's really nothing they can ask us that we're not going to be able to answer on their behalf, like we're extremely thorough.
• 21:03
  Part of that is going to be some of the bureaucratic stuff of, you know, why did you change jobs? What happened here? Right. But to give them will know the technical but also describe them as an individual to them and kind of what we view them from a personality perspective and why that may or may not be a fit.
• 21:21
  It's very much an open dialog with the customer and extremely transparent. And, Matt, just so that people can understand kind of the rigor of this in any given search you all might be having, talking to how many different potential candidates.
• 21:38
  I mean, you know, project wise, that's it depends on the the scope of the search. But, you know, I would say at least 75 to 100 depending, you know, and then you got to fine tune it as you go. I mean, that doesn't mean 75 or 100 go to the customer, obviously. Sure. But,
• 21:59
  we've got to talk to as many people as we can to get to the right person.
• 22:02
  what's so vital about that, I, I've got a feeling a lot of listeners that are going to be listening to this episode, if you would ask them, well, how many folks do you think their candidates are? We're talking to that number would have been much smaller than that. And that's part of the whole point is like, I think, you know, the way the process you guys have crafted over the years.
• 22:23
  And I think why, you know, we're so excited about this living within the team of us is there's just such a high standard of excellence of like, we're going to talk to enough people, as you said, to find the right person. And that's not going to happen quickly or easily,
• 22:38
  Yeah. Worth mentioning drew a lot. You know, throughout that process, we're meeting with the client regularly, right.
• 22:44
  And sharing the information, the insight, the compensation data points, how the position, how their organization compares to competitors, right, what their reputation is in the market, how the yeah, how this opportunity is resonating with people that maybe you're passively exploring opportunities or open conversations. And while that seems, like less valuable, I think the biggest takeaway is like beyond just hiring for the position, if a client engages us on a search, they should walk away from that search both with the position field, but also much more much smarter regarding their industry, the market, you know, the competitive landscape and compensation.
• 23:36
  You know, whether it's compensation, again, market intelligence more broadly as a result of the process we're running.
• 23:43
  And they can make the decision to hire someone with confidence because they're not simply seeing, you know, maybe five candidates being presented or who will be ultimately be considered for the role they're seeing a 100 person target list that was narrowed down to ten.
• 24:03
  That has now been whittled to five through an interviews and selection process. And so, you know, having seen more of the market should provide significantly more confidence in the decisions that they're making. That's right. And then, okay, I want to go back to interviewing here for just a moment. What are some interviewing red flags like when you guys think about what are certain things that if you hear these things in conversations with candidates, your your intent is kind of go up and you would call these red flags because I, I think it's really good for our listeners to hear some of this, because there's plenty of people that are listening to the growth project or
• 24:44
  although they're not involved in exact search, they're interviewing in many ways.
• 24:49
  sometimes people are in the wrong job and that's okay. Right? But if they can't quickly articulate or just be honest about why they left a job, we inherently feel like they're hiding something. You know, in the course of the search, we're going to ask for references anyway.
• 25:05
  But the people that are able to just own that and move on to the next thing you know, that that's better. I mentioned it earlier, you know, just about the ability to articulate specifics. You know, sometimes you'll find too, there's a pattern of like, it was this person or it was this, it was this. And sometimes you need to look in the mirror.
• 25:23
  Maybe it is you
• 25:24
  I tell people this all the time, your resume should read less like a job description and more like a highlight reel. And in order to do that, you need to surface accomplishments, and quantify them. And if you, in an interview, you're not able to tie some sort of measurable, quantifiable outcome to the thing that you accomplished, it loses weight, right?
• 25:57
  It's less powerful. And so I would encourage anyone at any level, and you don't always have to be the one that, that project or that accomplishment. You can have supported it, but tie a business impact to that thing. So again, job description reads lead an accounting department. Well lead an accounting department of how many. Right. That's that's a quantifiable, quantifiable data point or, streamlined xyzzy to be more efficient.
• 26:32
  Well, you know, let's say shaved five days off of this reporting process, saving the company X number of hours and or manpower, right. Or and throwing out random hours of the examples. But I think everybody hopefully gets my my point. I anything that you're going to highlight on a resume may be able to provide some sort of measurable outcome and tie it back to the performance of the business and what is on your resume.
• 27:01
  It better be factual, too, because we're going to you know, that was my next point. I would imagine the next suggestion is to not embellish to that. That's right, that's right. Absolutely. Yeah. Be able to back it up.
• 27:14
  how often do you guys see things come to your attention where people have let's just say maybe inflated some of their previous accomplishments happened last week.
• 27:28
  Probably one of the more egregious ones I've ever seen, but it was very clear that an individual had tailored their resume to the job through and through.
• 27:38
  And we started asking questions about it. And come to find out, it wasn't it wasn't there. Now, we didn't call him out on it, but we just quietly moved on to the next,
• 27:48
  Yeah. To today's world of AI generated everything, right? It's really easy to take a job description and then your resumé and say, hey, beat this up and cater it to this position profile or to it to your point, inflate maybe some numbers here or there. Okay. I mean, you may get away with it here or there, but eventually you're going to be found out, right?
• 28:14
  You've still got to execute and deliver on all the promises that you're making, having accomplished in the past. So,
• 28:21
  and with enough.
• 28:23
  Prodding and reference checking, etc. you know, oftentimes you can get a pretty good idea on whether or not those things are accurate or not. And the the benefit of misrepresenting versus being found out to have misrepresented something do not outweigh each other.
• 28:41
  Right? Like it's almost it doesn't matter how good of a candidate you are, if you've intentionally and maliciously misrepresented something, you're you're just cutting your legs out from under you. In my experience, I've had so many clients back away from an offer for really strong candidates because they just couldn't trust that. Anything they said up to that point had been true, because one thing was misrepresented
• 29:10
  that would hurt for everybody.
• 29:11
  Better to know now than later.
• 29:13
  Okay, guys, so as I think through this,
• 29:16
  many of the organizations that we've partnered with in the past that I would say, hey, this is a really high performing organization.
• 29:23
  They're doing a lot of things well, they're at the top of their industry. One of the common denominators I would I would have seen again and again is the thoughtfulness that they apply to all things, what I'll call people strategy. So it's everything, right? How are we developing our people? How are we investing in our people? Certainly a huge part of that, as well as like, what are we doing to ensure we're bringing the right people into the organization and that happens in so many different ways.
• 29:52
  We're talking about search and, senior level roles. But my point is those organizations have a high thoughtfulness toward who they're trusting to help them with these challenges. Why is it so important that organizations really, really consider and make calculated decisions about executive search professionals? Like, like Matt, I'll ping that one to you. Why is it so important that organizations have a great understanding of like, well, who am I trusting to find the right people for our organization?
• 30:35
  Because like every industry, everybody functioning, an executive search realm isn't created equally. Why are those relationships so, so important? Yeah, I mean, I put it in the context in some of the spaces where we play a lot, where there's family, you know, family owned businesses that are maybe transitioning into, you know, institutionally backed businesses, right? They're the culture and family dynamic there is it is critically important, but it's at a juncture where they want to maintain that and rightfully so, but also kind of launch it from a commercial perspective.
• 31:12
  So we touched on the cost earlier and like the EQ side of things, but like that, you know, while it's not perfect, you know, you can really get a sense of who somebody is at their core by, you know, having that thorough interview with them and and telling them what's going on within the business, too. We've got a it's a two way street.
• 31:30
  We have to position that to the candidate as well. So I think those parts are big. I don't know if it's 100% answering your question, but we we have to dive into the cultural component on any search because, you know, somebody could look great on paper, but just be a horrible fit in an organization if we don't do our job assessing that on the front end, then it's on us, right?
• 31:56
  The fit with the partner is incredibly important because they're the mouthpiece of your organization and the market. Right? They're the they're going to take your opportunity and your company to the market, and it needs to be presented in a way that's going to be attractive and compelling for people that are most likely not actively exploring opportunities. Right. And I will be the first.
• 32:23
  And I think Matt would echo this, to say we're not the right partner for every organization in the country. Right? There are kind of business industries. There are, kind of company size demographics and things of that nature that we are better positioned to support, and roles that we're better positioned to support now that will evolve and expand as we continue to build out the executive search practice within Atlas.
• 32:59
  But it's important to understand where does your search partner have experience? Where have they where does their network largely concentrate? Right? Do they understand the drivers and the components of the position and the, you know, in the dynamics of the market so that they can get to the right answer quickly? Because if they're learning on the fly, your search is going to expand and you're hoping they get lucky, right?
• 33:27
  Yeah. The and then I would only say, you know, the only other thing I would say is, you know, make sure that you're working with a firm, a partner that will also truly advise you and not just take the search without any real context, without any refinement or pushback.
• 33:55
  It's important that they're a partner and that they that you view them that way and that they view themselves that way. They need to be able to share transparent information both before you go to market. And then as the market sort of dictates, any adjustments that need to be made. And so having someone that's experienced enough to secure enough and, you know, maybe also, humble enough to bring that to you is important.
• 34:22
  Yeah. I think when you take a one size fits all approach either. Right. Like when they tell us they need something, you know, we're not trying to go fill a position within a salary band, like in a fortune 500 company. We want to give them a full lay of the land above, middle point below, so they feel comfortable at the end of the line and the decision that they made.
• 34:43
  We don't want to just check a box.
• 34:46
  Yeah. I just think that, you know, and we've touched on it, even in this conversation, when there's a vacancy in the roles that you guys directly support and work with, whether it be C-suite or C minus one, the implications of getting that right are just so far reaching.
• 35:05
  and we can focus on really any variable or category, whether it be economic morale,
• 35:11
  building the bench like there's just there's so many categories we can choose to focus on and it's just so important for organizations to get this right. So, you know, I'm just fired up that you guys are a part of the team now because I can think about, you know, work that we've done with leadership teams over the years when, for whatever reason it might be a certain member of that team is is no longer a part of that team.
• 35:34
  And there's a, there's an open seat. And we got to fill it. And we've got no role to play in that historically. So I'm just excited to be able to continue to be that trusted resource to the client.
• 35:47
  By now, having, just such a robust team that we've got expertise who can step in there and help.
• 35:54
  So yeah, fired off it. You guys are here and excited about, the great work that we're going to do together going forward. Slash neutral. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, this has been great, guys. Really appreciate your your thoughts and and perspectives on what this truly is, what this service looks like when done right. And then also just kind of the art especially I know we've got plenty of listeners who are not, needing to replace executives necessarily, but they are interviewing and they're thinking about their broader people strategy every day.
• 36:29
  So really appreciate the application there. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in, and we look forward to our next conversation here real soon. Take care.