Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Dynastic - Chuck Todd & J.A. Adande tell the incredible story behind the Pittsburgh Steelers

Transcript

Dynastic - Chuck Todd & J.A. Adande tell the incredible story behind the Pittsburgh Steelers · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: December twenty third, nineteen seventy two, three Rivers Stadium. And
0:05
Speaker 1: before you even see anything, you hear it a roller,
0:10
Speaker 1: a kind of rolling thunder that only exists in a
0:12
Speaker 1: place like Pittsburgh. And then something else. Silence. It's a
0:19
Speaker 1: silence that isn't quiet, it's tense. It's waiting. Dan Rooney
0:23
Speaker 1: is sitting high in the stands, too high to see clearly,
0:27
Speaker 1: but not too high to feel it. The Steelers are
0:30
Speaker 1: losing again. It's fourth down. They're just seconds remaining in
0:35
Speaker 1: the game, the kind of moment this franchise has lived
0:39
Speaker 1: through for forty years, for its entire existence. Terry Bradshaw
0:45
Speaker 1: drops back, he rolls right, he throws, there's a collision,
0:50
Speaker 1: it's violent. And then franc Oharris ends up with the
0:55
Speaker 1: ball and he's running. He's running down the sideline into
0:59
Speaker 1: the end zone. And here's the thing. Nobody knew if
1:04
Speaker 1: it counted, Not the players, not the coaches, not the officials,
1:10
Speaker 1: not the fans, nobody. The Pittsburgh Steelers spent forty years
1:16
Speaker 1: in the wilderness, building toward a moment that nobody could explain.
1:23
Speaker 1: This is how they got there, and this is what
1:28
Speaker 1: it meant.
1:29
Speaker 2: And This is Dynastic, the show that examines how champions
1:33
Speaker 2: were built. Ja Donde just heard from my co host
1:37
Speaker 2: Chuck Todd, and it's evident that this episode is about
1:42
Speaker 2: the Pittsburgh Steelers. Take a look at the trophy case
1:47
Speaker 2: for the Steelers. They qualify to be on this show
1:50
Speaker 2: in every way that you can imagine. Six super Bowl championships,
1:55
Speaker 2: which is tied with the New England Patriots, were the
1:57
Speaker 2: most in NFL history, the only team to win Super
1:59
Speaker 2: Bowl and back to back years twice in nineteen seventy four,
2:03
Speaker 2: seventy five, nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine seasons. They have
2:07
Speaker 2: eight Super Bowl appearances, tied for a second with three
2:11
Speaker 2: other teams for the most Super Bowls. The Patriots have
2:13
Speaker 2: the most with eleven six and two record in Super Bowl.
2:16
Speaker 2: Steelers have the best winning percentage seven point fifty of
2:20
Speaker 2: the five teams with at least eight appearances. Chuck, what
2:24
Speaker 2: do you have?
2:26
Speaker 1: Well, look, I mean it is it is remarkable. This run.
2:29
Speaker 1: It was almost like, you know, we start obviously with
2:32
Speaker 1: that with giving you a taste of the greatest play
2:36
Speaker 1: in NFL history. I think as it was voted the
2:38
Speaker 1: immaculate reception because in some ways the dynasty the Steelers
2:41
Speaker 1: were born were reborn that day. They were born in
2:44
Speaker 1: July of nineteen thirty three, but they were reborn that day,
2:47
Speaker 1: and from that moment, I love this. The Steelers won
2:52
Speaker 1: twenty four division titles AFC North or Central. They won
2:57
Speaker 1: seven consecutive AFC Central title from seventy two to seventy
3:01
Speaker 1: nine alone, So in that period of their four Super
3:04
Speaker 1: Bowls they won the basically you just sort of you
3:08
Speaker 1: know they were counted in. When you take Mike Tomlin's
3:14
Speaker 1: consecutive non losing seasons, couple them with what Noel did
3:18
Speaker 1: in sixty nine. The franchise with only three head coaches
3:23
Speaker 1: in that period, Tomlin never had a losing season in
3:26
Speaker 1: nearly twenty years. It's an NFL record for any coach.
3:30
Speaker 1: So it's hard not to put that in a trophy
3:32
Speaker 1: case as well.
3:34
Speaker 2: And they did it all obviously, Chuck no will be
3:37
Speaker 2: the first to tell you, because they had great players.
3:39
Speaker 2: They've had stability with their coaches, but they've had some
3:42
Speaker 2: tremendous talent walk through there. As the Hole. The organization
3:48
Speaker 2: has thirty two members, players and staff in the Pro
3:50
Speaker 2: Football Hall of Fame, as tied for the third most Cowboys, Giants,
3:55
Speaker 2: and Washington. The Steelers are the only franchise with three
3:59
Speaker 2: ownership and front office members in the Hall of Fame
4:02
Speaker 2: are Rooney Senior, Dan Rooney, and Bill Nunn. In the
4:07
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four NFL seventy fifth Anniversary team. Five players
4:11
Speaker 2: from those nineteen seventy Steelers were on that seventy fifth
4:15
Speaker 2: Anniversary team. That was the most of all the dynasty
4:18
Speaker 2: teams to that point, and that talent they came through. Look,
4:23
Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of the NFL Draft. I
4:26
Speaker 2: think it's completely overhyped. Wow, yeah, it's overhyped. Yes, I've
4:33
Speaker 2: been known to say this. I check out every yarn
4:35
Speaker 2: around the horn. I would just check out around draft time.
4:37
Speaker 2: I said, I'll talk to you again late April. I
4:39
Speaker 2: want nothing to do with the NFL Draft. The combine
4:43
Speaker 2: one of the greats. The combine is even worse. If
4:46
Speaker 2: I wanted to watch people running and jumping and lifting weights,
4:50
Speaker 2: I would watch the Summer Olympics. Right, the combine is
4:53
Speaker 2: not football. I want to watch football. Okay, let me
4:55
Speaker 2: be walking on and putting on a cap and shaking
4:58
Speaker 2: the commissioner's hand is not football. Right, these are football players,
5:02
Speaker 2: but they're not playing football. I do not watch the
5:05
Speaker 2: NFL Draft, But as.
5:06
Speaker 1: A reporter, I gotta think I've I've look I'm the
5:10
Speaker 1: outsider here, but I've always thought as a reporter, probably
5:14
Speaker 1: the best place to source build would be the combine.
5:17
Speaker 2: It is a great place for source building. However, reporting
5:20
Speaker 2: on the draft is a great way to get lied to.
5:23
Speaker 2: That's another reason I don't like the draft, because there's
5:26
Speaker 2: never more fiction put out, even by normally reliable sources
5:30
Speaker 2: than leading up to the draft. There's so much misinformation
5:34
Speaker 2: that has spread. Another thing, guess.
5:35
Speaker 1: What if it wasn't for misinformation, the Steelers wouldn't have
5:38
Speaker 1: gotten one of their Hall of Fame wide receivers.
5:41
Speaker 2: Well, withholding of information, I wouldn't say it was with misinformation.
5:44
Speaker 2: It was just withholding information a little bit and access
5:47
Speaker 2: to data which existed as film back then. To me,
5:52
Speaker 2: the greatest case against the draft was when Tom Brady
5:56
Speaker 2: faced off against Kurt Warner as the Patriots and the
5:58
Speaker 2: Rams and the Super Bowl. One was drafted, one quarterback
6:01
Speaker 2: was drafted in the sixth round. The other quarterback wasn't
6:04
Speaker 2: drafted at all. And here they were competing for the
6:06
Speaker 2: super Bowl in a pivotal moment in NFL history. So
6:09
Speaker 2: there's your NFL Draft. However, despite my feelings for the draft,
6:14
Speaker 2: we're here to talk about the Pittsburgh Steelers to day.
6:16
Speaker 2: And the reason we're talking about the Pittsburgh Steelers is
6:19
Speaker 2: because they had the greatest draft run probably in a
6:22
Speaker 2: history of all American sports.
6:24
Speaker 1: It's not even close.
6:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, and highlighted by the nineteen seventy four draft, which
6:30
Speaker 2: produced a total of five Hall of Fame players they
6:34
Speaker 2: drafted for they picked up another one as an undrafted
6:38
Speaker 2: free agent, So the greatest haul in NFL history. So
6:42
Speaker 2: the Steelers became the Steelers as we know them. They
6:45
Speaker 2: became dynastic because they mastered the draft from the late
6:50
Speaker 2: sixties into the nineteen seventies.
6:52
Speaker 1: And what's and again we're going to be learning this
6:55
Speaker 1: throughout this episode. What's amazing is before they became great
6:59
Speaker 1: at the draft, they were horrendousent to draft. They they
7:02
Speaker 1: cared about They had coaches that were like you, ja,
7:05
Speaker 1: they didn't care about the draft. They kept trading away picks,
7:08
Speaker 1: give me veterans. They didn't want the young guys. And
7:11
Speaker 1: then suddenly they realized that. You know, we talk about
7:14
Speaker 1: the five Hall of Fame guys in one draft with
7:17
Speaker 1: the seventy four draft, but they have nine Hall of
7:19
Speaker 1: Famers between sixty nine and seventy four. In the draft itself,
7:24
Speaker 1: it is a six year run. You throw in Joe Green,
7:30
Speaker 1: mel Blant, Terry, Bradshaw, Ham Hair, I mean, in the
7:33
Speaker 1: entire seventy four class there is. It's really not a
7:37
Speaker 1: close call. I mean, I guess you could say those Niners.
7:42
Speaker 1: You know, the Niners might have come close in the
7:44
Speaker 1: late seventies early eighties with the success they had in
7:46
Speaker 1: the draft, but boy, nothing like this.
7:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. They mastered the draft and also benefited from being
7:53
Speaker 2: ahead of the time. We did our first episode on
7:56
Speaker 2: the Dodgers, and of course the transformational highing of and
8:01
Speaker 2: signing of Jackie Robinson is such a pivotal part of
8:05
Speaker 2: their history. But the Steelers benefited from being ahead of
8:10
Speaker 2: the curve when it came to thinking about race and
8:15
Speaker 2: which players they would and would not take, and were
8:18
Speaker 2: more willing and able to search for black players and
8:25
Speaker 2: to be comfortable with an integrated locker room than other
8:28
Speaker 2: teams in the league were, and so that enabled them
8:31
Speaker 2: to get ahead. So to me, and we'll come back
8:33
Speaker 2: to this, but it's not that they were super progressive,
8:36
Speaker 2: but the lack of barrier, you know, not seeing race
8:40
Speaker 2: as a barrier, not being inhibited by race, certainly benefited
8:44
Speaker 2: to them. So the fact that they had the greatest
8:47
Speaker 2: draft run in sports history, certainly NFL history. That plus
8:51
Speaker 2: their organizational stability and they're somewhat progressive nature turned them
8:58
Speaker 2: from an afterthought into one of the league's premiere franchise.
9:01
Speaker 2: I think we'll be revisiting those themes throughout this episode.
9:05
Speaker 2: Right now. I want to the Steelers matter to me
9:08
Speaker 2: on a personal note because they're my introduction to the
9:12
Speaker 2: NFL really, So the first Super Bowl I remember watching
9:16
Speaker 2: was Super Bowl thirteen in nineteen seventy nine. That was Steelers,
9:20
Speaker 2: Cowboys and the Orange Bowl. I still remember the score.
9:22
Speaker 2: It's probably one of the only scores that I can
9:25
Speaker 2: remember at the top of my head, and it was
9:27
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh thirty five Dallas thirty one. And my enduring image
9:32
Speaker 2: from that is the NFL film shot that I must
9:35
Speaker 2: have seen at some point, not too long afterward, but
9:38
Speaker 2: it's a shot from behind the end zone. It's a
9:40
Speaker 2: close up with Terry Bradshaw dropping back to past and
9:43
Speaker 2: releases the ball and there's that signature NFL film shot
9:46
Speaker 2: of the spiraling football descending through the air and Lynn
9:51
Speaker 2: Swann leaps up and grabs it, comes down in the
9:54
Speaker 2: end zone, and I'd say my fandom from the NFL
10:00
Speaker 2: was born in that moment. What's your connection to the Steelers?
10:03
Speaker 2: What was your introduction to the Pittsburgh steel.
10:05
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, my first Super Bowl memory is the
10:07
Speaker 1: last one. It's the of that four era. I remember
10:11
Speaker 1: everything about the Rams. Yeah, it's the Ferragamo super Bowl,
10:15
Speaker 1: the Rams Steelers super Bowl, and it was you know,
10:19
Speaker 1: it felt like it was all about is that this
10:21
Speaker 1: is the end? And the question was was it the
10:23
Speaker 1: beginning of something for the Rams. It turned out not
10:25
Speaker 1: to be at all, but that for me, that's it.
10:28
Speaker 1: I remember the game and I also remember that Rams
10:31
Speaker 1: team because I remember watching the NFC Championship game with
10:34
Speaker 1: Tampa Bay right where Tampa Bay snuck into that thing.
10:39
Speaker 1: I think it was like a nine six. Yes, it
10:42
Speaker 1: was like just just it was the first time I
10:45
Speaker 1: remember watching a football game that was low scoring, where
10:48
Speaker 1: everybody was interested of people that I was around with
10:52
Speaker 1: my family, but let me throw this at you. You know,
10:55
Speaker 1: we're obviously the word dynasty is in here and we're look,
10:59
Speaker 1: we're are we are we you know we believe you
11:03
Speaker 1: know it when you see it. And there's no doubt
11:05
Speaker 1: that when you look at this period of time for
11:07
Speaker 1: the Steelers, that you know, their their six year run
11:10
Speaker 1: might be as good as any six to eight year
11:13
Speaker 1: run you can come up with. You got the five
11:15
Speaker 1: champion NFL championships for the Packers that sort of, you know,
11:18
Speaker 1: overlapped with the beginning of the Super Bowl era. You
11:20
Speaker 1: have what the what the Patriots did sort of six
11:23
Speaker 1: and what is it? Six and thirteen years? Fourteen years?
11:27
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe four out of six is as
11:29
Speaker 1: good as anybody could do. Can you ever lose dynasty status?
11:36
Speaker 1: You know? How many more? When do you have to
11:38
Speaker 1: keep going? How do you get because I'd argue the
11:40
Speaker 1: Steelers in some ways they it's like they elevated themselves
11:43
Speaker 1: and they created a new floor. Right like the Steelers
11:47
Speaker 1: not in the playoffs? You think, what's wrong with the Steelers? Right,
11:49
Speaker 1: it's almost automatic, But they're no longer automatic at getting
11:52
Speaker 1: to the Super Bowl.
11:53
Speaker 2: No, certainly the dynasty is long gone. Just like the
11:57
Speaker 2: Celtics dynasty or the UCLA basketball didnast of the nineteen sixties.
12:01
Speaker 2: I mean that that is an era, but again, they
12:04
Speaker 2: can remain dynastic and sort of my ground rules for
12:08
Speaker 2: this show is, I think a team needs at least
12:10
Speaker 2: three championships to be considered eligible for what we're talking about,
12:14
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean they have to come within a
12:16
Speaker 2: confined stretch, right, But the Steelers have both been They
12:20
Speaker 2: had their dynasty mode and then they've been kind of
12:24
Speaker 2: continuously defined by success since then. Right. The fact that
12:29
Speaker 2: the Tomlin lack of losing record throughout the entirety of
12:34
Speaker 2: his coaching tenure with the Pittsburgh Steelers speaks to that standard,
12:38
Speaker 2: that baseline. Right, So there's a there's a level of
12:40
Speaker 2: greatness that they just don't lose, you know what I mean?
12:44
Speaker 2: There are a couple losing seasons for knowing near the
12:46
Speaker 2: end of Color certainly had a couple there. But bottom line,
12:50
Speaker 2: the expectations and the standards for this franchise, this is
12:53
Speaker 2: a winning franchise, right, So they might not always be champions,
12:56
Speaker 2: but it's impossible not to think of the Pittsburgh Steelers
13:00
Speaker 2: and not think of them as winners, and again I
13:03
Speaker 2: was first introduced to them as Super Bowl champions, So
13:08
Speaker 2: they are. They're almost a separate category. Right. They have
13:11
Speaker 2: their dynasty, but they've also had sustained excellence, and that's
13:15
Speaker 2: something that we'll look at. But it's not the entire
13:19
Speaker 2: history of No, it's not like they were born into
13:23
Speaker 2: greatness and we're destined for greatness. No, So you want
13:27
Speaker 2: to take us back to the beginning days of this franchise.
13:30
Speaker 1: I do one other thing I want to point out.
13:32
Speaker 1: You tell me this before we go to the beginning days,
13:34
Speaker 1: which is Steelers, Cowboys, Packers, who else? That no matter
13:41
Speaker 1: where you hold the game, there'll be a slew of
13:44
Speaker 1: their fans that show up. Right, if the Steelers are
13:46
Speaker 1: playing in Germany, if they're playing in Miami, if they're
13:49
Speaker 1: playing in Seattle, Steelers fans show up. Right. They just
13:53
Speaker 1: for a small town, right, And I feel this way
13:56
Speaker 1: about the Packers. The fact that the Packers of the
13:58
Speaker 1: Steelers in some ways of the two most voted national
14:01
Speaker 1: fan bases. That says something about the NFL, too, doesn't it.
14:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, truly national team. And we'll get into the reasons
14:09
Speaker 2: and the strategic NFL decision that I think helped enable that, right,
14:14
Speaker 2: these national followings for these small market teams. But you're right,
14:18
Speaker 2: they are the three NFL teams. To me, the Steelers
14:21
Speaker 2: are on the level with the Celtics and the Lakers
14:24
Speaker 2: and the Yankees when it comes to just broad fan
14:28
Speaker 2: bases that are going to be heard from no matter
14:30
Speaker 2: where the team is playing.
14:31
Speaker 1: Did you have that friend that was like the fan
14:33
Speaker 1: of all the championship teams? You know what I mean,
14:35
Speaker 1: Like whoever was winning in whatever sport.
14:37
Speaker 2: They best friends is actually the opposite. So he grew
14:41
Speaker 2: up he was actually from Pittsburgh, so he liked the Steelers,
14:43
Speaker 2: but he was more a fan of the Seattle Seahawks.
14:46
Speaker 2: He was a fan of Chicago White Sox, rooted for
14:49
Speaker 2: the San Antonio Spurs and the eighties and then the
14:51
Speaker 2: Indiana Pacers, so he was one that always kind of
14:54
Speaker 2: went against the Green. I was more likely to be
14:57
Speaker 2: a fan of the Steelers and addition to the Lakers
15:02
Speaker 2: and the Dodgers, so I was more of a front
15:05
Speaker 2: runner than that. But yeah, there's those people that you'll
15:08
Speaker 2: see their Yankee slash Cowboys slash Lakers.
15:11
Speaker 1: Well, let's be honest, there were plenty of front runner
15:13
Speaker 1: Steelers fans in the seventies too, you know, they came
15:16
Speaker 1: out of the eighties, but you know, when we were
15:19
Speaker 1: dug into this, I think the surprise for me and
15:23
Speaker 1: is how you've basically had one ownership, one family has
15:27
Speaker 1: on this team since the very beginning. Art Rooney, Senior,
15:31
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three. It's a great depression. Pittsburgh obviously is
15:35
Speaker 1: big industrial town, big steel town. It's a hard labor town. Now,
15:40
Speaker 1: football is very popular in this region at the time,
15:43
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a main attraction. The Pirates were around
15:46
Speaker 1: and more popular college football, the pitt Panthers and the
15:50
Speaker 1: Duquane Dukes. Dukes were in some ways more popular football
15:55
Speaker 1: teams in Pittsburgh than the than any professional football was.
16:00
Speaker 1: But Pennsylvania had blue laws, and in nineteen thirty three
16:03
Speaker 1: they finally get rid of the blue laws, and so
16:05
Speaker 1: a couple of years after the founding of the NFL,
16:08
Speaker 1: Art Rooney pays twenty five hundred dollars for the franchise
16:14
Speaker 1: rights for what is then the Pittsburgh Pirates. Quite a
16:19
Speaker 1: few early NFL teams shared the name with the baseball teams,
16:24
Speaker 1: the assumption being just they figured I guess we weren't
16:28
Speaker 1: worried about branding back then. You know, is or you wanted.
16:32
Speaker 2: To associate with the entity right right.
16:34
Speaker 1: With the baseball teams. I mean, I think there was
16:36
Speaker 1: a Brooklyn Dodger football team at at one point on
16:40
Speaker 1: that front. But what's interesting about Art Rooney and the
16:42
Speaker 1: thing that sort of blew me away, right because the
16:44
Speaker 1: Rooney name and the NFL Rooney rule, you put everything
16:48
Speaker 1: in there. It's like, well, the Rooneys, they're the one
16:50
Speaker 1: of the first families of football. You might argue they
16:52
Speaker 1: are the first family of football. Well, guess who wasn't
16:55
Speaker 1: a big football fan? Art Rooney. He was a boxer
17:01
Speaker 1: and in fact, if you believe his son, he could
17:05
Speaker 1: have been an Olympic boxer and won a gold medal
17:07
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty Olympics. He loved to play baseball, but
17:11
Speaker 1: he was basically the local sports promoter. If you had
17:14
Speaker 1: a boxing match, or you wanted to try to bring
17:16
Speaker 1: a barnstorming baseball team to the area, or you wanted
17:20
Speaker 1: to do some sort of event, you called up Art
17:23
Speaker 1: Rooney and he found a way to find people and
17:26
Speaker 1: get it done. And he loved the horse track, and
17:29
Speaker 1: I know This was a favorite story of yours.
17:32
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's not true that he bought the team
17:37
Speaker 2: with winnings from the horse track, but he did. He
17:40
Speaker 2: didn't need that much winnings.
17:41
Speaker 1: He only needed twenty five hundred.
17:42
Speaker 2: Bucks, so he actually made a lot more money than that.
17:45
Speaker 2: Like if prices had been going for what they were
17:47
Speaker 2: going maybe a few decades later, he could afforded that
17:50
Speaker 2: with his winnings from the track. So I like this
17:54
Speaker 2: story that he won about twenty thousand dollars on a
17:56
Speaker 2: Saturday night at the Empire City Racetrack in Yonkers, New York,
18:00
Speaker 2: helped buy I bet on Sea Biscuit. Seabiscuit paid off
18:02
Speaker 2: for him. So I love the fact that we're tying
18:04
Speaker 2: into the Sea Biscuit story. So he took us.
18:07
Speaker 1: We'll get to that dynasty down the road.
18:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sea Biscuit is definitely dynastic. So he took his winnings,
18:12
Speaker 2: he bought a car. He didn't buy a franchise. He
18:14
Speaker 2: did buy a car with his winnings, drove to the
18:15
Speaker 2: Saratoga Racetrack and there in that session he wins one
18:18
Speaker 2: hundred and eight thousand dollars. By the time he was
18:21
Speaker 2: done on this trip, he'd won anywhere from two hundred
18:23
Speaker 2: thousand to three hundred and eighty thousand dollars total. This
18:26
Speaker 2: was all in the book Their Life's Work by Gary Palmers.
18:29
Speaker 2: That was a primary source material for me. So just
18:34
Speaker 2: as a depth as he proved to be at running
18:38
Speaker 2: an NFL franchise early on, he showed a proclivity for
18:42
Speaker 2: being much more skillful at the racetrack.
18:45
Speaker 1: You know, and Dan Rooney's autobiography he talks about, I
18:48
Speaker 1: mean his father was just a you know, knew how
18:50
Speaker 1: to read a racing form. And you know, if anybody
18:54
Speaker 1: you know, there was there's a if you ever spend
18:57
Speaker 1: time with old guys at tracks, you know, they they
19:00
Speaker 1: just know how to They know how to do this.
19:02
Speaker 1: There is a there is a you know, reading between
19:04
Speaker 1: the lines, there is figuring this out. And he was
19:06
Speaker 1: one of those guys and he just knew. And they
19:10
Speaker 1: did say, you know, that money it didn't go to
19:13
Speaker 1: pay the franchise, but it did help make payroll a
19:15
Speaker 1: couple and keep the keep the franchise afloat. So he
19:19
Speaker 1: did he did use use the money for that. But
19:24
Speaker 1: let's make no mistake that the Pittsburgh franchise, they were
19:28
Speaker 1: sort of losers right away. They're known as the Pittsburgh Pirates,
19:32
Speaker 1: and this is a name that they keep for for
19:33
Speaker 1: a while. They lose a lot of games, they lose money.
19:37
Speaker 1: They had to play in other cities to survive because
19:39
Speaker 1: they didn't always get great attendance. They played in Youngstown, Louisville,
19:43
Speaker 1: New Orleans. They were just staying afloat. And look, you
19:47
Speaker 1: could make an argument Jay that Art Rooney was just
19:50
Speaker 1: sort of not the best owner, right He wasn't a
19:52
Speaker 1: football guy. He didn't necessarily have football people running it.
19:56
Speaker 1: He was always looking for somebody else. What was interesting
19:59
Speaker 1: is it his oldest son became obsessed with football, and
20:03
Speaker 1: so Dan over time becomes the football savants and cares
20:09
Speaker 1: more about football than Dad, who still cares more about baseball.
20:13
Speaker 1: There's this great anecdote that you know, when they were
20:16
Speaker 1: in the car, first thing he is always looking for
20:18
Speaker 1: is the baseball game, Art Senior, not not the football game.
20:25
Speaker 1: But they just have all sorts of bad luck. They're
20:28
Speaker 1: just they you know, even when they stumble on to
20:30
Speaker 1: some good players, they disappear. Bill Dudley as the first
20:35
Speaker 1: great player they have, fine he leaves. They have a
20:37
Speaker 1: good coach Jack Sutherland. He dies the one year they
20:41
Speaker 1: make the playoffs as a player strike. It really is
20:46
Speaker 1: sort of too it's one step forward, two steps back
20:49
Speaker 1: almost all the way really up until the sixties.
20:55
Speaker 2: And they don't have much of an identity, right, you know,
20:58
Speaker 2: they kind of come and go, oh, there's nothing to preserve, right,
21:03
Speaker 2: and so at one point they they merged with the
21:07
Speaker 2: Philadelphia Eagles.
21:08
Speaker 1: During the war. Right during w War two, all the
21:10
Speaker 1: NFL teams are struggling to field teams, right because the
21:13
Speaker 1: guys are getting called to play the war.
21:16
Speaker 2: So they're the Steagles.
21:19
Speaker 1: Imagine tell it Eagles fans today that, right, they would
21:22
Speaker 1: just drive them both crazy. Well, I mean, like like
21:25
Speaker 1: you know that literally oil and water is Steelers and Eagles.
21:29
Speaker 2: But we had the Steagles, the Steagles, we had the
21:33
Speaker 2: the card Pits. They merged with the Chicago Cardinals during
21:38
Speaker 2: the war as well, called.
21:39
Speaker 1: The Carpets because they were just walked.
21:41
Speaker 2: All over it. So even though they combined, you know,
21:45
Speaker 2: they just it's like they they the worst of bathrow
21:48
Speaker 2: of both franchises kind of came to the forefront that
21:51
Speaker 2: that that team went zero and ten, you know, and
21:54
Speaker 2: we speak of names and trying to keep track of things.
21:58
Speaker 2: So if you're like me, you have trouble keeping track
22:02
Speaker 2: of all the Rooney's and figuring out which Runey is,
22:05
Speaker 2: which I mean.
22:06
Speaker 1: Right, well, by the way, the Rooneys have that trouble apparently.
22:09
Speaker 2: I mean, it's great that's been family owned, but when
22:12
Speaker 2: all the chief figures and the organization have the same
22:15
Speaker 2: last name, it can be hard to keep track. But uh,
22:18
Speaker 2: I came to understand through through reading their lives work it.
22:21
Speaker 2: Now it makes more sense than that, you know, because
22:25
Speaker 2: it's an Irish family, they fire. They follow the Irish customs,
22:29
Speaker 2: which you name your firstborn son after your father or
22:33
Speaker 2: the son's grandfather. Right, So Art Rooney Senior, his father
22:37
Speaker 2: was Dan, So his firstborn nun firstborn son's name was Dan,
22:42
Speaker 2: named after his own dad.
22:44
Speaker 1: Right.
22:44
Speaker 2: The next son was named Art Junior. You know, once
22:48
Speaker 2: you name went after dad, then you can name one
22:49
Speaker 2: after yourself. And Dan did the same thing, right, Yeah,
22:52
Speaker 2: So Dan's first son was named after his father, So
22:58
Speaker 2: he's Art Art the second, right, because our junior has
23:01
Speaker 2: already taken So Dance son is Art the second. That
23:04
Speaker 2: child's grandfather was the original Art aka the chiefs I'm
23:08
Speaker 2: not sure who has DIBs on Art the third for
23:10
Speaker 2: the next generation.
23:11
Speaker 1: But man, look, you know not I'm not gonna stereotype,
23:15
Speaker 1: but Irish Catholic family is all I'm saying. There's a reason, Uh,
23:22
Speaker 1: the Rooneys became Dan people. Some people may not realized
23:26
Speaker 1: he was Barack Obama's ambassador told Ireland and in fact.
23:30
Speaker 2: Though they were Republican historically.
23:33
Speaker 1: I briefly I remember when he came to the White
23:37
Speaker 1: House and and and uh, I got one of those
23:40
Speaker 1: brief interviews with with with the with the with the
23:44
Speaker 1: elder Rooney. It was one of the fund moments.
23:48
Speaker 2: This is Dan Dan at that point, Right.
23:51
Speaker 1: At that point, it's it's it's Dan the other elder Rooney.
23:55
Speaker 1: But you know what epitomizes the pre sort of dynasty
23:59
Speaker 1: Steelers and where you know, so the low point is
24:03
Speaker 1: obviously these warriors where they're having to merge in order
24:06
Speaker 1: to keep the franchise afloat, but they do. There's a
24:09
Speaker 1: weird ownership swap for a day, you know, that had
24:13
Speaker 1: to do with they were going to sell one and
24:16
Speaker 1: then Rooney came back. Rooney ended up still with the Steelers,
24:19
Speaker 1: but it was kind of confusing. When they were bringing
24:21
Speaker 1: in a new franchise in Boston, there was a fight
24:24
Speaker 1: with the Washington franchise who didn't want who thought they
24:27
Speaker 1: still had the rights to Boston because the original Washington
24:31
Speaker 1: franchise actually originated in Boston. But I want to get
24:34
Speaker 1: to the fifties because it's identifying the problems with this
24:39
Speaker 1: franchise in the fifties that puts them on a path
24:43
Speaker 1: to become essentially the greatest drafting franchise of all time,
24:49
Speaker 1: beginning in the late sixties, early seventies. In the fifties,
24:54
Speaker 1: they're the team that uses the draft the least. In fact,
24:57
Speaker 1: I remember Dan Rooney who got to help run these
24:59
Speaker 1: drafts rooms. Then he's still young. He still considered the kid, right.
25:05
Speaker 1: Uh this this the head coach essentially kept trading away
25:09
Speaker 1: the draft, the draft picks because he wanted veterans. He
25:12
Speaker 1: didn't believe in playing rookies, he didn't believe in trying
25:15
Speaker 1: to develop young players. He would trade them away. And
25:19
Speaker 1: at one point there was one year imagine a NFL
25:22
Speaker 1: franchise is not getting an NFL draft picked until the
25:25
Speaker 1: eighth round. Ja and one year in the fifties they
25:29
Speaker 1: had to wait till the eighth round to make their
25:32
Speaker 1: first pick in the draft. And there's probably no moment
25:38
Speaker 1: that epitomizes the sort of the poor own, the poor
25:43
Speaker 1: draft structure, the poor player development structure than the Johnny
25:47
Speaker 1: United story.
25:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they could have had they they had Uniteds
25:54
Speaker 2: and and they just let him go. They didn't want
25:58
Speaker 2: him around, right.
25:59
Speaker 1: Well, what made it more frustrating is he was a
26:01
Speaker 1: local kid. Yeah, everybody knew the kid. You know, he
26:06
Speaker 1: was an All Star.
26:07
Speaker 2: He was on the starting quarterback on the All Star
26:10
Speaker 2: team among the Pittsburgh Catholic high schools. The second team
26:13
Speaker 2: All Star star was young Danny Rooney. But their coach,
26:18
Speaker 2: Buddy Parker, was the coach. He did not like rookies.
26:21
Speaker 2: He didn't want this young UNITEDS guy around anywhere. So
26:25
Speaker 2: decades before, Lesnie the general manager of the LA Rams
26:30
Speaker 2: after they'd moved back to Los Angeles, and he trades
26:33
Speaker 2: away all their picks so that they can win the
26:35
Speaker 2: Super Bowl. They did win the Super Bowl, and at
26:38
Speaker 2: the Super Bowl victory celebration, he's wearing a T shirt
26:40
Speaker 2: that says f them picks. So I could imagine, you know,
26:44
Speaker 2: if it would have been in vogue back then, Buddy
26:45
Speaker 2: Parker would have had a T shirt that said f
26:48
Speaker 2: N picks because that was basically his philosophy. He did
26:49
Speaker 2: not want rookies round. He did not have patience for them.
26:52
Speaker 2: And so yeah, as a result, they missed out on
26:56
Speaker 2: Johnny You.
26:58
Speaker 1: They had him. He gets cut in the preseason. I
27:01
Speaker 1: don't think he even gets to play in one game
27:04
Speaker 1: at all. Look, I'm always careful that in Dan Rooney's account,
27:11
Speaker 1: he was pushing no, no, no, no. You got to
27:13
Speaker 1: give him a chance. You got to give him a chance. Anyway,
27:16
Speaker 1: it's saddy. He ends up leaving camp, he thinks his
27:19
Speaker 1: career is over, he gets a job in construction, he
27:22
Speaker 1: plays semi pro football, and then of course the Baltimore
27:25
Speaker 1: Colts find him, and you know, the rest is history.
27:28
Speaker 1: But you know that when you look at various forks
27:32
Speaker 1: in the road, I would argue this is probably the
27:35
Speaker 1: single most important fork for this franchise before right, if
27:40
Speaker 1: the seventies doesn't happen, you might argue this Johnny U
27:46
Speaker 1: missed opportunity is sort of like the Red Sox trading
27:49
Speaker 1: Babe Ruth.
27:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's kind of doom the failure, and
27:52
Speaker 2: then they could have had a get out of jail
27:53
Speaker 2: free card on Monopoly board because they drafted Lynn Dawson
27:57
Speaker 2: first overall pick in nineteen fifty seven, and they let
28:01
Speaker 2: him go and he goes on to win a Super
28:03
Speaker 2: Bowl with the Kansas City Chiefs.
28:06
Speaker 1: Well as they weren't just losing games, they were losing
28:09
Speaker 1: the future, right, they just immediately lost the future. And
28:14
Speaker 1: so it is. It is interesting when you're trying to
28:19
Speaker 1: sort of tell the story of the most stable professional
28:21
Speaker 1: franchise maybe in all of professional sports. It took them.
28:28
Speaker 1: Let's see, it's born in nineteen thirty three. The first
28:30
Speaker 1: draft they get right is nineteen sixty nine. It essentially
28:34
Speaker 1: takes them thirty seven years to figure out how to
28:36
Speaker 1: build a football team.
28:38
Speaker 2: Well, anyone can have an off decade or so, right,
28:41
Speaker 2: That's what they used to say in Chicago with the
28:43
Speaker 2: Cubs when they went a century. Anyone can have an
28:46
Speaker 2: off century, you know, between winning a World Series and
28:48
Speaker 2: so so they had a downstreat. But yeah, once they
28:51
Speaker 2: got it right, boy did they get it right. All right.
28:54
Speaker 1: So it's now the sixties and we're starting to see
28:57
Speaker 1: the importance of television, the the that look. Speaking of
29:02
Speaker 1: Johnny United, the greatest game ever played, the greatest game
29:06
Speaker 1: ever played, the NFL Championship, the Colts and the New
29:09
Speaker 1: York Giants at Yankee Stadium, and that ushers in the
29:14
Speaker 1: television era for the NFL.
29:16
Speaker 2: And it could have been the Steelers, but insaid it
29:18
Speaker 2: was the Baltimore Colts and Johnny.
29:19
Speaker 1: U And it becomes and and suddenly the league realizes, Okay,
29:24
Speaker 1: there's money to be made here. And what's nuts is
29:28
Speaker 1: how all the teams were cutting their own deals. So
29:33
Speaker 1: some teams would be CBS on CBS. I think the
29:36
Speaker 1: Packers were with CBS and the Steelers were CBS and
29:39
Speaker 1: some kind of deal with others. And you had the
29:40
Speaker 1: AFL in there, you had the NFL.
29:42
Speaker 2: The individual network. You had other networks that didn't survive,
29:47
Speaker 2: but they.
29:48
Speaker 1: Were like regional networks.
29:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.
29:50
Speaker 1: And but the point was it was every franchise for themselves, right,
29:55
Speaker 1: The leagues themselves were not controlling this, and you know
30:02
Speaker 1: they need sort of some organization. Well, enter a guy
30:08
Speaker 1: named Burt Bell, and he's basically the most you know,
30:11
Speaker 1: before there's Pete row you know, Pete Roselle, who's considered
30:15
Speaker 1: sort of you know, obviously in some ways. Some people
30:17
Speaker 1: may think he's the founding commissioner. He wasn't, but he's
30:20
Speaker 1: certainly the commissioner that sort of created the modern NFL.
30:24
Speaker 1: But Burt Bell did a lot of work to help
30:27
Speaker 1: create and plant the seeds of the modern NFL. What's
30:29
Speaker 1: interesting about Burt Bell is he at one time was
30:31
Speaker 1: a co owner of the Steelers with Art Ruining. He
30:34
Speaker 1: was one of his business partners. So he's a big
30:36
Speaker 1: part of the early history of the NFL. And he's
30:40
Speaker 1: now the commissioner. And Bell looks at television and he's
30:44
Speaker 1: worried that it's a threat.
30:46
Speaker 2: Right.
30:46
Speaker 1: There's this fear that TV that instead of sitting in
30:53
Speaker 1: a stadium in the open air in thirty degree weather,
30:57
Speaker 1: that people are going to say, Hey, I like this football,
31:00
Speaker 1: but I'd much prefer watching football in my house where
31:04
Speaker 1: I've got the temperature under control. So he comes up
31:08
Speaker 1: with a radical idea he wants to create. He says,
31:12
Speaker 1: no home games can be on TV within seventy five
31:15
Speaker 1: miles of where the game is being played. That's why
31:19
Speaker 1: the idea was, if you want to watch your team,
31:21
Speaker 1: you go to the stadium. In some ways, this is
31:23
Speaker 1: the birth of the blackout rule, right, Baseball adopts it football, But.
31:31
Speaker 2: In the Chicago Blackhawks notoriously didn't show any home games
31:34
Speaker 2: for decades.
31:35
Speaker 1: And this was all about the owners because most of
31:38
Speaker 1: their revenue was more generated by ticket revenue, right, and
31:42
Speaker 1: you know that was a larger chunk of where their
31:44
Speaker 1: money was coming from at the time. The TV dollars
31:47
Speaker 1: just weren't there.
31:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know which game was blacked out? The Immaculate
31:52
Speaker 2: Reception game wasn't available on TV in the Pittsburgh market.
31:57
Speaker 1: So here we are. It's nineteen sixty one. Every team
32:00
Speaker 1: has its own TV deal and the gap is pretty big, right.
32:04
Speaker 1: The Giants are making one hundred and seventy five thousand
32:06
Speaker 1: dollars off of their TV rights, the Packers seventy five
32:11
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So, and I know you'll be shocked to
32:14
Speaker 1: hear this, jaa. The big markets didn't want to share
32:16
Speaker 1: with the small markets. You know, in sports, right, there's
32:20
Speaker 1: this mythology that somehow the maras of the Giants, Oh no, no, no,
32:26
Speaker 1: they saw the big picture and they wanted to share
32:30
Speaker 1: you No, no, no, they weren't going to try to have
32:32
Speaker 1: an advantage, And that was not true. The Maras fought
32:35
Speaker 1: this tooth and nail. They did not want to share,
32:40
Speaker 1: but they all realized that they couldn't behave this way,
32:44
Speaker 1: and so in came a young new commissioner named Pete Roselle,
32:51
Speaker 1: and he decides if the NFL is going to survive,
32:53
Speaker 1: they have to act like one league, not twelve separate businesses.
32:58
Speaker 1: And it becomes a huge fight, and it is basically
33:04
Speaker 1: big markets versus the small and media markets.
33:06
Speaker 2: The greater good wins out right the socialists that at
33:10
Speaker 2: a time when you know, anti communist sentiment was a
33:13
Speaker 2: lot higher than it is today. Somehow the NFL became
33:18
Speaker 2: the you know, this great capitalistic monster, thanks in part
33:23
Speaker 2: to this very socialist principle that we're going to share
33:26
Speaker 2: the wealth equally. We're going to have the national TV deals.
33:30
Speaker 2: No longer we are each club negotiating its own regional
33:34
Speaker 2: television deal. We're going to have a national TV deal
33:37
Speaker 2: and that revenue will be split equally. And that's that's
33:43
Speaker 2: Pete Roselle's gift and his enduring legacy is the national
33:48
Speaker 2: TV deal with the equal revenue. That's what enables the
33:51
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Steelers and the Green Bay Packers of the league
33:54
Speaker 2: to remain competitive with the New York Giants and the
33:57
Speaker 2: Dallas Cowboys, and.
34:00
Speaker 1: Rooney sided with the Packers, right, that was important, and
34:03
Speaker 1: you know, Pittsburgh could have been a swing vote in
34:05
Speaker 1: this others and you know, this is a case where
34:10
Speaker 1: you know, the Rooneys are given a lot of credit
34:12
Speaker 1: to this, but it is where you start to see
34:14
Speaker 1: this is also the beginning of the influence of the
34:18
Speaker 1: Rooney's on the league itself. That when the Rooney speak,
34:22
Speaker 1: the league listens, right, And eventually, of course the famous
34:26
Speaker 1: Rooney rule comes into play. But this has been where.
34:29
Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting that it happens then, though, Chuck,
34:32
Speaker 2: because they haven't won anything, right.
34:34
Speaker 1: No, they write, but it was part of it was
34:37
Speaker 1: just generational. Dan Rooney and Pete Roselle were both young,
34:40
Speaker 1: and so they were they understood each other. Roselle I
34:45
Speaker 1: think was like working for the Rams at the time,
34:47
Speaker 1: like he was just.
34:48
Speaker 2: A marketing guy.
34:49
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And so you know, not surprisingly, this is
34:53
Speaker 1: a case of just generations understanding each other's better. The
34:57
Speaker 1: old guys hung out with each other and the Suns
35:00
Speaker 1: and the young guys hung out with each other, and
35:02
Speaker 1: that bond of Roselle and Rooney, because BOYD did I think.
35:07
Speaker 1: There's this great scene in Danerny's book when Roselle's first
35:12
Speaker 1: comes commissioner and George Preston Marshall, the owner of the
35:15
Speaker 1: Washington franchise, decides to come lecture the new commissioner. But
35:21
Speaker 1: he shows up at the meeting in his pajamas, like
35:26
Speaker 1: the weirdest power move you could have, and everybody is
35:29
Speaker 1: just supposed to be like, well, that's George Marshall for you,
35:31
Speaker 1: and you're like okay. But managing that moment and not
35:37
Speaker 1: cow towing to Marshall was an important, early early step
35:42
Speaker 1: for Roselle.
35:43
Speaker 2: Well, it's a good thing that Roselle didn't go to
35:45
Speaker 2: Congress wearing his pajamas, right, That might not have gone
35:47
Speaker 2: over so well, But he is able to win over
35:52
Speaker 2: the politicians, right, And in nineteen sixty one, President Kennedy
35:57
Speaker 2: signs the nineteen sixty one Sports Bodcasting Act, and that's
36:01
Speaker 2: what enables. It basically grants the NFL an anti trust exemption,
36:06
Speaker 2: right because the league, there are all the all the
36:08
Speaker 2: individual entities that make up the NFL are going to
36:12
Speaker 2: act as one and negotiate as one. And that could
36:17
Speaker 2: be seen as an anti trust violation, but they're granted
36:21
Speaker 2: this exemption and that's what enables everything. And you know,
36:25
Speaker 2: as we record this in twenty six that nineteen sixty
36:28
Speaker 2: one Sports Broadcasting Act is very much in the news,
36:31
Speaker 2: right because it's been called in question by the current administration,
36:33
Speaker 2: from the SEC, the FCC and even the Department of Justice,
36:39
Speaker 2: you know, and it's been so vital to keeping the
36:41
Speaker 2: league equitable. It's what enabled the NFL to become the
36:44
Speaker 2: most enduring in the pre eminent form of mass entertainment
36:51
Speaker 2: in American history. Right, it comes to prominence, you know this.
36:55
Speaker 2: It starts in nineteen sixty one, and by the end
36:57
Speaker 2: of the decade, the NFL sort of passes baseball as
37:01
Speaker 2: the sport that America cares the most about. And in
37:05
Speaker 2: the current age, typically well over ninety of the top
37:09
Speaker 2: one hundred most watched programs on linear television every year
37:14
Speaker 2: are NFL games, right, And so it's just endured its
37:18
Speaker 2: hold on America. And in part because it gave way
37:25
Speaker 2: the product, right, the product was widely available everywhere and
37:29
Speaker 2: so what's and that enabled the Pittsburgh's and the Green
37:32
Speaker 2: Bays to compete, unlike in baseball, where the primary means
37:37
Speaker 2: of making money is the local television deals, and it
37:40
Speaker 2: leads to this wide discrepancies between the New York's of
37:44
Speaker 2: the world and the Pittsburgh's. You know, Pittsburgh's a great
37:47
Speaker 2: example of that, right, the Steelers have maintained in.
37:50
Speaker 1: Their major market.
37:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean their thought of like everyone else and
37:54
Speaker 2: literally like right next door to them. The Pittsburgh Pirates
37:58
Speaker 2: have been an afterthought for basically the last four decades,
38:02
Speaker 2: ever since Barry Bonds left as a free agent because
38:05
Speaker 2: they couldn't afford to keep them in nineteen ninety three.
38:08
Speaker 2: Right now, but the reason why they were allowed to
38:13
Speaker 2: exert this monopoly or have this exception to this antitrust
38:18
Speaker 2: rule was that again they could make the claim that
38:22
Speaker 2: you can watch all of our games for free. But
38:24
Speaker 2: now we're at the point you can lead up to
38:26
Speaker 2: ten different streaming subscriptions to watch all those games.
38:30
Speaker 1: And this is why. I mean, look, and you know,
38:33
Speaker 1: we don't know when folks are going to be listening
38:36
Speaker 1: to this, but this is probably going to be a
38:38
Speaker 1: battle over the next couple of years. We're here in
38:41
Speaker 1: the spring of twenty twenty six. It wouldn't surprise me
38:44
Speaker 1: that this is going to be an ongoing battle between
38:47
Speaker 1: what's over the air, what is even considered over the
38:50
Speaker 1: air anymore? Right, what is considered streaming. We're like, the
38:54
Speaker 1: definitions and all of this stuff are going to continue
38:58
Speaker 1: to change. But the bottom line line is without the
39:01
Speaker 1: NFL having equal essentially sharing all their revenue, they wouldn't
39:07
Speaker 1: be the powerhouse. If Baseball shared all their revenue, Baseball
39:09
Speaker 1: would be probably be in a healthier position today. The
39:13
Speaker 1: NBA shares more of its revenue and as a league,
39:18
Speaker 1: in some ways they have more healthy teams than Baseball does,
39:21
Speaker 1: and you could argue it's because of these revenue sharing
39:24
Speaker 1: aspects of it. And in many ways, what the NFL
39:26
Speaker 1: created the NBA essentially is modeled and Major League Baseball
39:30
Speaker 1: would love to get closer to that model.
39:32
Speaker 2: Maybe, depending on when you listen, you could be in
39:34
Speaker 2: the midst of an NFL labor or a Major League
39:37
Speaker 2: Baseball labor shutdown, right, because that's the looming battle is
39:41
Speaker 2: will there be a salary cap? Well, you know, as so,
39:45
Speaker 2: their revenue, their national television revenue is declining, right, so
39:50
Speaker 2: they don't have this option that the NFL has had
39:52
Speaker 2: where they can get billions of dollars every year. So
39:56
Speaker 2: the NFL their their counter argument to these allegations now
40:00
Speaker 2: that the consumer, the customer is being deprived of that Hey,
40:03
Speaker 2: eighty seven percent of the games are still available on
40:05
Speaker 2: television and all the games are available on pre TV
40:09
Speaker 2: in the team's local markets. But in an air of
40:13
Speaker 2: cord cutting, where people might not have over the air television,
40:17
Speaker 2: they might not have network television available to them. Now
40:20
Speaker 2: you're asking them to subscribe to a multitude of streaming
40:24
Speaker 2: service and as it's become national. So the argument is, hey,
40:28
Speaker 2: you can, you can watch your local team. But part
40:31
Speaker 2: of the success of the NFL is that you might
40:34
Speaker 2: be living in Phoenix, Arizona, and you're a fan of
40:38
Speaker 2: the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are a national team, and it's
40:41
Speaker 2: going to be harder and harder to watch all the Steelers.
40:43
Speaker 1: Let me, let me just tell you what blackout rules do. Okay,
40:46
Speaker 1: as a kid, so, Miami is notoriously known as sort
40:50
Speaker 1: of not always the the a city where sports fans
40:55
Speaker 1: will show up for the regular season. Right, it's a
40:57
Speaker 1: winner's town. Okay, I'm not gonna I'm gonna sit here
41:00
Speaker 1: and you know I will I will own the idea
41:02
Speaker 1: that Miami's always been a winner's town, and you know
41:05
Speaker 1: La has a little bit of that. You know, hey,
41:08
Speaker 1: when you live in Paradise, right, you know there's a
41:10
Speaker 1: lot of competition for win. But so the Miami Dolphins
41:15
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, We're on Monday Night football
41:17
Speaker 1: always three times a year, always, and it always felt
41:22
Speaker 1: like twice a year they were they were at home,
41:26
Speaker 1: and usually one of those two games didn't sell out.
41:31
Speaker 1: So you know what that meant Monday night football, we
41:34
Speaker 1: couldn't watch it.
41:35
Speaker 2: Wow.
41:36
Speaker 1: And so you know how many times I've seen the
41:39
Speaker 1: Rocky Blyer movie because they would actually to tie it
41:43
Speaker 1: back to this Deeler. What they would do local Channel
41:47
Speaker 1: ten right for if those of you that grew up
41:49
Speaker 1: in Miami, you know, they were the ABC affiliate, so
41:52
Speaker 1: they would basically run a football movie in place of
41:55
Speaker 1: the game. So the Rocky Blyer Story that and Longest Yard,
42:00
Speaker 1: the Burt Reynolds version of the Logus Yard pre Adam Sailor.
42:03
Speaker 1: I feel like those movies were at a blackout rotation,
42:06
Speaker 1: you know, But no, I promise you the first time
42:10
Speaker 1: I saw the Rocky Buyer Story was due to a
42:13
Speaker 1: blackout rule. And you know what that didn't do. It
42:16
Speaker 1: didn't help the Miami Dolphin fandom in Miami. And so
42:20
Speaker 1: these blackout rules I think are so counterintuitive. And you
42:24
Speaker 1: think you're being pro fan, you're actually being anti fan, right,
42:28
Speaker 1: you are punishing your fans who can't watch that game.
42:32
Speaker 1: I just I think I might be a better Dolphins
42:37
Speaker 1: fan today as a kid had that blackout rule didn't exist.
42:40
Speaker 1: I think it's terrible. So we had to move because
42:43
Speaker 1: there's one more piece of off the field business we
42:45
Speaker 1: had to get to until we can start really living
42:48
Speaker 1: in the heart of this era, and that's the merger,
42:53
Speaker 1: the FL NFL merger, because I think this is where
42:58
Speaker 1: the Raiders Steelers rivalry starts to begin. Because so al
43:06
Speaker 1: Davis first, he's upset that he's not the first commissioner. He's,
43:10
Speaker 1: of course the commissioner of the AFL Pete Roselle's commission
43:13
Speaker 1: in the NFL, and I know you'll be shocked to
43:16
Speaker 1: know when they decided, well, who should be the commissioner
43:17
Speaker 1: of the combined league, there weren't many votes for al Davis.
43:20
Speaker 2: JA.
43:24
Speaker 1: So al Davis is already bitter and angry. Well, they
43:28
Speaker 1: have one issue that they got to deal with in
43:32
Speaker 1: the merger, and that is evening out the conferences. So
43:35
Speaker 1: the AFL is going to become the AFC and the
43:38
Speaker 1: NFL is going to become the NFC. Well, they needed
43:41
Speaker 1: to move three NFL teams had to agree to move
43:45
Speaker 1: to the AFC and essentially be with all the AFL teams.
43:49
Speaker 1: And nobody wanted to move right, that was not something.
43:53
Speaker 1: So there was an enticement. You got a three million
43:57
Speaker 1: dollar franchise bonus I believe it was to if you
44:03
Speaker 1: agreed to move leagues. That's a lot of money back then,
44:08
Speaker 1: so a lot. So you get So the Steelers were
44:12
Speaker 1: concerned about their division. They were concerned about certain rivalries.
44:17
Speaker 1: So the biggest thing that Rooney had to do was
44:20
Speaker 1: convince his friend Art Modell, owner of the Browns, to
44:23
Speaker 1: come over right the NFL expansion that that brought the
44:27
Speaker 1: Browns in in the in in the early fifties, and
44:31
Speaker 1: Model agrees. So now you got the Colts, the Steelers,
44:36
Speaker 1: and the Browns. The next thing is divisions, and this
44:41
Speaker 1: is where Rooney basically, you know, they're hemming and han
44:44
Speaker 1: and they're using, well, no, I'm not going to go
44:47
Speaker 1: unless we get the division that we want, and and
44:52
Speaker 1: they get guaranteed in order to seal the deal for
44:54
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh to agree to go over, they get guaranteed that
44:57
Speaker 1: their division is going to be Cleveland since nay in Houston,
45:03
Speaker 1: and so the AFC Central is born. When this deal happens,
45:09
Speaker 1: Al Davis loses his ship and he gets all angry.
45:13
Speaker 1: And this is my favorite story. Vince Lombardi physically grabs
45:18
Speaker 1: al Davis. This is all this was in the Rooney books.
45:21
Speaker 1: I'm citing Rooney on this one. Grabs them by the lapels,
45:24
Speaker 1: pins him to the wall and says, you're not gonna
45:27
Speaker 1: cause any more trouble here. I mean, I just love
45:31
Speaker 1: the fact that it's Lombardi who he said.
45:33
Speaker 2: To tell me, Yeah.
45:35
Speaker 1: It is right here. You have the Rudi's LOBARTI. It
45:37
Speaker 1: is Lombardi at this meeting, right They're having this big
45:40
Speaker 1: meeting about the merger, and he physically, you know, Al
45:43
Speaker 1: Davis is throwing a hissy fit and he's threatening all
45:46
Speaker 1: sorts of stuff, gonna walk out, and Lombardi just grabs
45:49
Speaker 1: him and pins him on the wall. So maybe that's
45:52
Speaker 1: why he earned the name on the trophy. Just as
45:55
Speaker 1: much as all the winning you know, Jay, I find
45:59
Speaker 1: one of the more remarks couple statistics the fact that
46:01
Speaker 1: you have that that the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions,
46:05
Speaker 1: you know, have never even been to a super Bowl,
46:08
Speaker 1: that their last championships are all pre super Bowl on
46:12
Speaker 1: that front. And you know, with the Port Lion.
46:14
Speaker 2: Sixty years to do it.
46:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the Lions, I've always thought, like I've I
46:19
Speaker 1: feel like they need to manufacture a jinx of some sort, right,
46:24
Speaker 1: the curse of the Bambino or a billy goat thing.
46:27
Speaker 1: And yeah, at least right, Yeah, well, I think it's
46:31
Speaker 1: I think there's a straight line here, right. I think
46:33
Speaker 1: the Lions win an NFL title in like fifty seven,
46:36
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. I think that's the last time
46:38
Speaker 1: they went. I think it's within three or four years
46:41
Speaker 1: that the famous writer George Plimpton decides to embed himself
46:46
Speaker 1: in the season, right, and it's a paper Lion. And
46:50
Speaker 1: I remember the movie version where he's you know, I
46:53
Speaker 1: guess in training camp and trying to be a quarterback it.
46:57
Speaker 1: You know, ever since they they sort of aid with
47:00
Speaker 1: the football gods, right with that little stunt, they've been
47:05
Speaker 1: terrible ever since and they haven't gotten back. They got
47:08
Speaker 1: to do something right. I don't know if it's burning
47:10
Speaker 1: a George Plimpton effigy or some sort of maybe maybe
47:13
Speaker 1: you burn a paper lion or whatever it.
47:16
Speaker 2: Is, paper lion. Yeah, your little Lion's logo, burn it up.
47:21
Speaker 2: So yeah, the Lions in Cleveland, of course, you know
47:26
Speaker 2: they were. Yeah, they were great with Jim Brown, but
47:28
Speaker 2: it all happened pre Super Bowl era, and so I
47:32
Speaker 2: would rather be like the Steelers and have all my
47:37
Speaker 2: success be post Super Bowl. So yeah, they were miserable,
47:40
Speaker 2: but no one knows or no one certainly thinks about
47:44
Speaker 2: the fact that they were so bad because very early
47:47
Speaker 2: in the Super Bowl era, and as the Super Bowl
47:49
Speaker 2: was becoming this national celebration and festival, it coincided with
47:54
Speaker 2: the rise of the Steelers. So we think of them
47:56
Speaker 2: as great because they've been great and contending pretty much
48:00
Speaker 2: throughout the duration of the Super Bowl era.
48:01
Speaker 1: They've basically been great since we've had color television. Yeah, right, Like,
48:05
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, right, the Packers were sort of
48:07
Speaker 1: the last franchise of the black and white TV NFL, right,
48:11
Speaker 1: And to me, the Steelers are the first time the
48:14
Speaker 1: NFL's in color, and.
48:16
Speaker 2: No one has seen what successful Cleveland Browns football franchise
48:20
Speaker 2: looks like in color. But we can give Cleveland some
48:26
Speaker 2: sort of credit and some give them some connection to
48:30
Speaker 2: this Steelers dynasty, not just the logo, but again the
48:33
Speaker 2: fact that Chuck Noll learned his ways from Paul Brown
48:39
Speaker 2: playing as an undersized offensive lineman on the Cleveland Browns.
48:43
Speaker 2: There is some sort of connection in tie there. So
48:46
Speaker 2: as we get to Chuck Knowle, just keep Cleveland in mind,
48:51
Speaker 2: right we Cleveland fans pours, you know, downtrod in Cleveland
48:54
Speaker 2: fans need a little something. So we're gonna spend a
48:55
Speaker 2: lot of time talking about Chuck Noll that's coming up
48:58
Speaker 2: after the break, and just keep clear Land in mind
49:00
Speaker 2: when we do that.
49:01
Speaker 1: So the history of football coaches in the Pittsburgh Steelers JA.
49:06
Speaker 1: If you talk to Dan Rooney, it was basically the
49:10
Speaker 1: first person arn't liked, he said, great, make them coach.
49:13
Speaker 1: And they didn't really go through much of an interview
49:16
Speaker 1: process if arn't liked them, if you know, and all
49:19
Speaker 1: of a sudden you went from one interview to hire
49:22
Speaker 1: and well, let's just say this wasn't working. And so
49:25
Speaker 1: this time they decided they're really going to do a
49:28
Speaker 1: real search. And the irony though, is that the first
49:31
Speaker 1: candidate they interviewed Chuck Nole, and everybody falls in love
49:35
Speaker 1: with Chuck Nole. But because they had such bad luck
49:39
Speaker 1: intinct right, so they said.
49:40
Speaker 2: Well, we better Malcolm Gladwell book blink, right.
49:43
Speaker 1: Right, we better go interview other people, including this young
49:47
Speaker 1: head coach for the for the for the for a
49:49
Speaker 1: college football team in Happy Valley named Joe Paterno.
49:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just one of those sliding door moments. What
49:56
Speaker 2: would have happened? How different would the fates of both
49:59
Speaker 2: ten State and the Steelers have been if they had
50:03
Speaker 2: hired Joe. I think Joe Paterno could have been as
50:05
Speaker 2: successful NFL coach, as successful as Chuck Nole. We'll never know,
50:10
Speaker 2: but wound up working out great both for the Penn
50:14
Speaker 2: State and any Lions and for the Pittsburgh Steelers. And
50:17
Speaker 2: you know who they brought along to try to convince
50:19
Speaker 2: paternal to come to the NFL. Vince Lombardi. He was
50:23
Speaker 2: done with the pack around, so Rooney brings Lombardi to
50:28
Speaker 2: try to talk to. So another intersection like Lombardi is
50:32
Speaker 2: just kind of everywhere at this stage if he's not
50:35
Speaker 2: accosting Al Davis here he is trying to persuade Joe
50:38
Speaker 2: Praterno to come to the NFL.
50:40
Speaker 1: But this is a reminder, right, the NFL is still
50:42
Speaker 1: a fairly small organization, and even when they merge with
50:45
Speaker 1: the AFL, and you know these stories with Lombardi where
50:48
Speaker 1: the and all of these stories where the head coach
50:51
Speaker 1: is in charge of everything, right, the head coaches are
50:53
Speaker 1: just worrying about you know, today we're used to, you know,
50:56
Speaker 1: shooting baseball. The manager only has to worry about like this,
51:00
Speaker 1: there's a lineup guy, there's this guy, there's that guy.
51:02
Speaker 1: And NFL there's all sorts of specialty coaches for individual players.
51:07
Speaker 1: But back then, man, you needed your you got to
51:10
Speaker 1: your head coach had to do all sorts of things,
51:12
Speaker 1: including politicking.
51:14
Speaker 2: But especially come drafts, he was very important.
51:18
Speaker 1: What's interesting about the college connections the Steelers. There was
51:22
Speaker 1: one year during their you know, during the loser days
51:25
Speaker 1: if you will, in the thirties and forties, where they
51:28
Speaker 1: had where the they had, they hired the Ducaine football
51:33
Speaker 1: coach and let him keep coaching Ducaine and the Steelers
51:36
Speaker 1: of the same season. Let's just say when when they
51:39
Speaker 1: finally decided that he needed to pick one team, he
51:43
Speaker 1: picked Ducane, which, by the way, Ducaine football, it no
51:48
Speaker 1: longer exists. It's long gone on that front. But Chuck
51:52
Speaker 1: Noll has finally agreed upon and in many ways, this
51:57
Speaker 1: is probably the next incredible fork in the.
52:01
Speaker 2: Road, right you and coaches? Right?
52:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the stat Like, we know the stat from
52:09
Speaker 1: Noel forward. But they hired Nolan sixty nine. The franchise
52:14
Speaker 1: is born in thirty three, in thirty six years, is
52:16
Speaker 1: it twelve coaches thirteen?
52:18
Speaker 2: Well? No, he was their fourth coach in six years,
52:21
Speaker 2: the fourteenth coach in Steelers history.
52:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, basically thirteen coaches in thirty six years.
52:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, the coaches in thirty sex years and then yeah,
52:32
Speaker 2: four and six, and then when the Steelers hired Mark
52:35
Speaker 2: McCarthy this year, he became their fourth coach in the
52:37
Speaker 2: last fifty seven years, so four and from four and
52:40
Speaker 2: six to four and fifty seven. Yeah. So the concern
52:45
Speaker 2: with Nol though, was that he was young. He was
52:48
Speaker 2: only thirty seven years old, and so was he too young?
52:51
Speaker 2: And there was a question because the Steelers had, you know,
52:54
Speaker 2: we're forward thinking, so our junior asked Noel if he
52:58
Speaker 2: had any issues with black players, if he would have
53:00
Speaker 2: a quota on black players, and Noel says, I don't
53:03
Speaker 2: care what color my players are. You finding good players
53:06
Speaker 2: where they are. And this is partly to do with
53:08
Speaker 2: Noel's background. Right, he played on a neighborhood team where
53:13
Speaker 2: half the players when he was playing youth football, half
53:15
Speaker 2: the players on the roster were black, you know, and
53:18
Speaker 2: this is like the nineteen forties, fifties, so you know,
53:23
Speaker 2: very early on he was ready for the evolving landscape, right,
53:30
Speaker 2: and so you know there's other he has the right mentality.
53:35
Speaker 2: So it is introductory press conference. A reporter tells him
53:38
Speaker 2: this is a city of losers, and Noel says, well,
53:41
Speaker 2: we'll change history. And indeed he did.
53:44
Speaker 1: That's what makes their Mike McCarthy hire the strangest of
53:47
Speaker 1: them all. He's so old compared to what they're used to.
53:50
Speaker 2: It surprised a lot of people because he did go
53:52
Speaker 2: against their standards.
53:56
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll tell you this, if McCarthy doesn't win
53:59
Speaker 1: right away, they're immediately going to say, well, that's what
54:02
Speaker 1: you get for not hiring some.
54:03
Speaker 2: Of the o their thirties.
54:06
Speaker 1: I love the anecdotes about Noel in the first team meeting,
54:10
Speaker 1: and he walks in because this is what Dan Rooney
54:12
Speaker 1: writes about. He said, the thing that impressed him the
54:14
Speaker 1: most about Nol is that in the interview it came
54:19
Speaker 1: across that Noel knew the Steeler players better than he
54:22
Speaker 1: thought the Steelers coaches knew their own players at the time,
54:25
Speaker 1: and that Nol really was a film like it sounded.
54:28
Speaker 1: It feels like that Noel was a guy who was
54:30
Speaker 1: all over the film room, and this is what he does.
54:33
Speaker 1: And he walks into that locker room a bunch of
54:35
Speaker 1: veterans because we know this is a team that did
54:38
Speaker 1: not believe in the draft, did not do well in
54:40
Speaker 1: the draft in the sixties, and he goes, I've watched
54:43
Speaker 1: the film. I know why you've been losing. It's not effort.
54:47
Speaker 1: This isn't a good football team, and most of you
54:49
Speaker 1: aren't going to be here.
54:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they played their first Super Bowl five years
54:54
Speaker 2: later and only five of those players from nineteen sixty
54:58
Speaker 2: nine were still on the roster, right, So I mean
55:01
Speaker 2: he pretty much clears house. Of course, they go on
55:03
Speaker 2: that that great drafting run as well. Chuck Noll hired
55:08
Speaker 2: his coach and men. Joe Green joins the Steelers on
55:11
Speaker 2: back to back days. Can you think of many back
55:14
Speaker 2: to back days in the history of any franchise that
55:17
Speaker 2: are that consequential? Knowle's ways he just very traditional, I
55:24
Speaker 2: would say, he he gets in there and he he
55:30
Speaker 2: you know, kind of like John Wooden in that it
55:33
Speaker 2: was really big on practice, and that would be, you know,
55:37
Speaker 2: the the game should be kind of you're on cruise
55:40
Speaker 2: control right after you practiced diligently. You know. He thought
55:44
Speaker 2: games were won on you know, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, when
55:47
Speaker 2: you're when you're preparing, they're not one on Sunday. You know,
55:49
Speaker 2: you should have everything down and the Gary Palmer has
55:52
Speaker 2: books he talks about. Nole's emphasis was on organization, structure
55:56
Speaker 2: and fundamentals, but he wasn't above dropping a Yo Mama
56:00
Speaker 2: on a player in the locker room. He could kind
56:01
Speaker 2: of exist in a multitude of ways, you know, and
56:05
Speaker 2: he's a very not complex, but he contained multitudes. Is
56:09
Speaker 2: when he played for the Cleveland Browns, he also went
56:11
Speaker 2: to law classes at night, going to law school. There's
56:16
Speaker 2: an interesting illumination on who Chuck Nole was that was
56:20
Speaker 2: in a feature story on him in Sports Illustrated in
56:25
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty. When Noel died in twenty fourteen, they reran
56:27
Speaker 2: it on the Sports Illustrated website. It was written by
56:30
Speaker 2: Paul Zimmerman, doctor z the doctor, right, yeah, yeah, And
56:34
Speaker 2: so in the story, they're in the car and they're
56:36
Speaker 2: driving by a frozen pond, and Noel as Zimmerman, he says,
56:41
Speaker 2: what do you think of when you see that? Looking
56:43
Speaker 2: at the pond, Zimmerman writs, I tell him, I think
56:45
Speaker 2: of our pond at home and my kids skating, and
56:47
Speaker 2: the way it looks in the late afternoon with the
56:49
Speaker 2: myst starting to come in a poet, you see it
56:51
Speaker 2: as a poet, Noel says, what fascinates me is the
56:55
Speaker 2: science of it. Frozen on top, strong enough to support weight,
56:58
Speaker 2: yet warm enough on the bile him to maintain life,
57:01
Speaker 2: the miracle of life. And I thought reading that someone
57:06
Speaker 2: who could have such profound thoughts while looking at a
57:09
Speaker 2: frozen pond in the middle of winter, it's not just
57:11
Speaker 2: some meathead football coach, right like, this is someone who's
57:14
Speaker 2: who's very thoughtful. He was distrustful of the media despite
57:17
Speaker 2: that that access that he gave Zimmerman because he thought
57:20
Speaker 2: the media really didn't understand football. I think he respected
57:23
Speaker 2: Zimmerman because you know, doctor z really did know the
57:26
Speaker 2: game inside and now kept his own stats like separate
57:29
Speaker 2: from from what the team would provide. But the media
57:33
Speaker 2: at large, he didn't really trust that much. Any thought,
57:35
Speaker 2: if he gave them too much, then the opposing coaches
57:37
Speaker 2: would read it when gained some insight that they could
57:39
Speaker 2: use their advantage on Sundays.
57:41
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Let's take a minute here with
57:43
Speaker 1: Noel before we get in, because you know, think about
57:46
Speaker 1: who his peers were in that time. You had John Madden,
57:48
Speaker 1: you Tom Landry, you're Don Schule, Right, those were sort
57:53
Speaker 1: of and I could argue that all of them had
57:57
Speaker 1: very you know, you know, land Shula and Noel were
58:01
Speaker 1: all very reserved kind of guys. Right. There was definitely
58:04
Speaker 1: that Madden obviously the one that wasn't reserved, and he
58:07
Speaker 1: of course became becomes incredibly famous. But Noel is the
58:11
Speaker 1: lowest key of all of them.
58:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
58:14
Speaker 1: Right, And and you know, even to this day, I
58:17
Speaker 1: feel like when people think of the iconic Super Bowl
58:21
Speaker 1: runs and the coaches, you hear immediately Bill walshon the Niners,
58:25
Speaker 1: and you'll Bell Belichick and the Patriots. You don't even
58:30
Speaker 1: I and I don't know why this is outside of
58:33
Speaker 1: steel I'm not saying Steelers fans would say Chuck Nolan
58:35
Speaker 1: and the Steelers right away because they're Steelers fans. But you
58:38
Speaker 1: don't have that same sense of recall with It's not
58:43
Speaker 1: viewed as Noel Steelers and I and I wonder how
58:48
Speaker 1: much of that it's just simply Noel wasn't you know,
58:51
Speaker 1: didn't he wasn't thrust as the leader of that team.
58:54
Speaker 1: Even though he was the leader of that team.
58:57
Speaker 2: He wasn't into self promotion, right. He was reluctant even
59:00
Speaker 2: to have Paul's room and do those those stories on him.
59:04
Speaker 2: So it's that this is going to kind of sound silly,
59:07
Speaker 2: but we are a superficial society. Like if you think
59:12
Speaker 2: of Landry, you know, uh, you know.
59:16
Speaker 1: Some more Super Bowl rings than Landry by the way.
59:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he he stands above so many of
59:22
Speaker 2: these of.
59:22
Speaker 1: These, more than Bill Walsh by the way.
59:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, But he's not seen as the innovator of Bill Walsh,
59:28
Speaker 2: and he doesn't kind of have that stoicism of Landing.
59:30
Speaker 2: But honestly, like he doesn't have the jawline of like
59:35
Speaker 2: a Landry right, or even a Bill Cower who replaced him, right,
59:39
Speaker 2: like these these imposing figures, a silhouette or in John
59:44
Speaker 2: Madden's case, is larger than life figure. Right. So the
59:47
Speaker 2: fact that he's more reserved, even though he's a fascinating
59:51
Speaker 2: person when you read about him, and he has a
59:52
Speaker 2: range of interests and thoughts on things. But that's not
59:56
Speaker 2: what necessarily what we look for in our coach.
59:59
Speaker 1: No but you know, he does match something else, you know,
1:00:01
Speaker 1: one of the there was a time where everybody thought
1:00:05
Speaker 1: that the best coaches are the players that never got
1:00:07
Speaker 1: on the field, right, because they're sitting on the sidelines,
1:00:10
Speaker 1: like Don Shula. You know what made him a great coach?
1:00:13
Speaker 1: I think one time he said, it's because I wasn't
1:00:15
Speaker 1: good enough to get on the field, so I was
1:00:17
Speaker 1: label to watch. And in some ways that's the Chuck
1:00:19
Speaker 1: Noll origin story. There's this great story about him as
1:00:22
Speaker 1: a walk on it Notre Dame and he gets dropped
1:00:26
Speaker 1: by Leahy who's the coach at the time. Frank leah
1:00:28
Speaker 1: He's the coach. It turned out that Noel was having
1:00:32
Speaker 1: an epileptic seizure. He didn't take his medication and he
1:00:37
Speaker 1: didn't tell the coach about his condition. And you know,
1:00:40
Speaker 1: in some ways, now everything we learn about Noel, now
1:00:43
Speaker 1: you're not surprised, right, he didn't want to be There's
1:00:47
Speaker 1: no doubt that he didn't do it out of his
1:00:49
Speaker 1: own source of pride probably well.
1:00:52
Speaker 2: And those seizures lead to the end of his career, right.
1:00:54
Speaker 2: The Browns are afraid of the medical risk and the
1:00:58
Speaker 2: liability if they put him out there on the field
1:01:00
Speaker 2: and he has a seizure. So uh, fortunately for the
1:01:05
Speaker 2: Steelers he becomes available at this critical juncture for them.
1:01:09
Speaker 2: So his medical misfortune uh plays into the hands of
1:01:14
Speaker 2: the Steelers. And as I said, uh, back to back days,
1:01:18
Speaker 2: Chuck Noll and they draft Green and Joe Green.
1:01:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, because it's the you know, it's
1:01:28
Speaker 1: funny you think of Terry when you think of the
1:01:31
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Steelers of your certain age, you know you're gonna
1:01:35
Speaker 1: think Jerome Battist, Ben Roethlisberger, Terry Bradshaw, and you should
1:01:40
Speaker 1: think Joe Green. And I think it is you probably
1:01:43
Speaker 1: not have to be over the age of fifty for
1:01:45
Speaker 1: Joe Green to be that front and center. But you know,
1:01:49
Speaker 1: in some ways he was more important than Bradshaw. Arguably
1:01:55
Speaker 1: there's no Terry Bradshaw without Joe Green. Yeah.
1:01:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so those in North Texas state, they were
1:02:05
Speaker 2: the mean Green right. So he kind of picks up
1:02:07
Speaker 2: his nickname from.
1:02:09
Speaker 1: Which he didn't like at first. He didn't like me
1:02:11
Speaker 1: and Joe Green. You know, you're right. It had more
1:02:13
Speaker 1: to do with the university was at than anything else.
1:02:17
Speaker 1: But he didn't like that nickname. But you know, somebody,
1:02:20
Speaker 1: it sticks.
1:02:20
Speaker 2: With him and it gives him an identity, and yeah,
1:02:26
Speaker 2: he becomes the leader of you know, what becomes the
1:02:30
Speaker 2: Steel Curtain Defense. I want to skip ahead a little
1:02:34
Speaker 2: bit to the end in nineteen seventy nine and the
1:02:39
Speaker 2: coke commercial, which doing a little research thinking about this
1:02:44
Speaker 2: in the course of preparing for this episode, kind of
1:02:47
Speaker 2: more significant than we might have imagined. And it comes
1:02:53
Speaker 2: about as it's the same ad agency that did that
1:03:00
Speaker 2: did like to buy the World of Coke commercial at
1:03:03
Speaker 2: the start of the seventies, and at the end of
1:03:07
Speaker 2: the seventies they have they have this one mister Glee.
1:03:13
Speaker 2: Yeah you need any help?
1:03:16
Speaker 1: M h, I want my coke?
1:03:18
Speaker 2: No, no, we would, you can have it?
1:03:20
Speaker 1: Okay, I do thanks, I like to save you around.
1:03:36
Speaker 2: WOWK woman named Penny Hockey wanted a dialogue based ad
1:03:43
Speaker 2: comes up with the idea of a kid offering a
1:03:45
Speaker 2: coke to a downcast player, and uh coke wanted Terry Bradshaw,
1:03:52
Speaker 2: but Penny Hockey liked the contrast, like the idea of
1:03:55
Speaker 2: a mean Joe Green. So their nickname actually helped him
1:03:57
Speaker 2: out because it created this character. And you've got this,
1:04:00
Speaker 2: you know, a little hopeful white kid and you've got
1:04:03
Speaker 2: big No.
1:04:03
Speaker 1: I mean, I could you know, you could just see
1:04:05
Speaker 1: it like I'm like, you're describing it now and I
1:04:07
Speaker 1: could see it, and.
1:04:08
Speaker 2: It's in your mind and for the you aren't familiar
1:04:11
Speaker 2: with it. It's a very simple concept. So me and
1:04:13
Speaker 2: Joe Green is kind of limping off the field in
1:04:16
Speaker 2: the locker room. I don't know why. There's not a trainer,
1:04:18
Speaker 2: athletic trainer with him, right, yeah, No, he's by himself. Yeah,
1:04:20
Speaker 2: just walking by you through the tunnel. He's got his
1:04:24
Speaker 2: jersey off, like he's clearly done for the day and
1:04:26
Speaker 2: he's injured and he's limping make his way back to
1:04:28
Speaker 2: the locker room and this kid comes up to him
1:04:30
Speaker 2: and and uh, uh you know, offers him his coke
1:04:34
Speaker 2: if it'll cheer him up, you know, and U Joe
1:04:37
Speaker 2: Green grabs it and chugs it down, and I was
1:04:42
Speaker 2: in a better mood and he smiles and he says, hey, kid,
1:04:44
Speaker 2: catch and he toss him his jersey. Thanks Me and
1:04:47
Speaker 2: Joe and have a coke and a smile, right. I
1:04:49
Speaker 2: think that was the slogan at that time. They used
1:04:52
Speaker 2: to show that to us. We had someone John Sawatski,
1:04:55
Speaker 2: used to work with us on storytelling techniques at ESPN,
1:04:58
Speaker 2: and he showed us that commercial, and he showed us
1:05:00
Speaker 2: a different There was a seven up commercial with with
1:05:03
Speaker 2: Sugar Ray Leonard in which Sugar Ray is boxing and
1:05:06
Speaker 2: sparring in the ring and his son is there with
1:05:08
Speaker 2: a bunch of his friends and they're like, hey, that's
1:05:10
Speaker 2: the champion. Son goes, no, that's just my dad, and
1:05:12
Speaker 2: he's smiling. So here's Sugar Ray Leonard, you know. And
1:05:16
Speaker 2: I was saying, much more intelligentic, handsome person and just
1:05:19
Speaker 2: a you know, just kind of an overall bubbly personality.
1:05:23
Speaker 2: And yet the coke commercial featuring Me and Joe Green
1:05:25
Speaker 2: is more effective. Why because it has changed the element
1:05:28
Speaker 2: of change and contrast and that's what the writers of
1:05:30
Speaker 2: this commercial understood. A couple of trivia things. They shot
1:05:35
Speaker 2: it over three days. Joe Green had to drink twenty
1:05:37
Speaker 2: bottles a day. I love that takes where he's burping.
1:05:41
Speaker 2: I love that I would too if I had that
1:05:43
Speaker 2: much carbon.
1:05:44
Speaker 1: By the way, do you remember this commercial was so popular?
1:05:47
Speaker 1: I think they did a thirty minute doc on TV
1:05:50
Speaker 1: about it. You know, remember back then they would have
1:05:53
Speaker 1: these like holiday specials of the best ads of Yeah,
1:05:56
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two and the best Ads of nineteen eighty three,
1:05:59
Speaker 1: and you know, I can't like either it was like
1:06:03
Speaker 1: a segment on That's incredible, right, or something like one
1:06:05
Speaker 1: of those ridiculous shows back in the day, or it
1:06:08
Speaker 1: was one of those specials, but I remember it was.
1:06:11
Speaker 1: It was so iconic that they literally made more programming about.
1:06:14
Speaker 2: It, and he did win a KLIL and you know,
1:06:18
Speaker 2: it repeated over the years, and it was it was
1:06:20
Speaker 2: mocked or homage to it. I think there's a version
1:06:22
Speaker 2: with with Troy Polamalo, the great Pittsburgh Steeler defender later
1:06:27
Speaker 2: that kind of paid homage to this. But Andel Green
1:06:30
Speaker 2: actually wins a CLEO and ring on it actually or
1:06:33
Speaker 2: just kind of thinking about it, it helps pave the way.
1:06:37
Speaker 2: It's a kind of a transition. So you had OJ
1:06:39
Speaker 2: Simpson and those breakthrough Hurts commercials where black athletes and
1:06:43
Speaker 2: team sports now are getting commercials and are seen as
1:06:46
Speaker 2: someone that can help endorse a product and can boost
1:06:49
Speaker 2: the sales of your product or the usage of your product.
1:06:52
Speaker 2: And so Coca Cola deemed Mijo Green someone who you know,
1:06:55
Speaker 2: this menacing black athlete as someone who could be beneficial
1:07:00
Speaker 2: to them and could sell their product. So you know,
1:07:04
Speaker 2: it's another step on the way to the world that
1:07:07
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan takes over and just you know sends in
1:07:10
Speaker 2: the orbit with his capitalization on the road that was
1:07:14
Speaker 2: paid by O. J. Simpson and doctor j and yes,
1:07:16
Speaker 2: even me and Joe Green paving the way for black athletes,
1:07:20
Speaker 2: particularly black athletes and team sports to have all these
1:07:24
Speaker 2: endorsement opportunities.
1:07:25
Speaker 1: And it is not originally a super Bowl at yes,
1:07:28
Speaker 1: it aired during the fourth Super Bowl, which did give
1:07:32
Speaker 1: it its own life, but it debuted October first, nineteen
1:07:36
Speaker 1: seventy nine, on Monday Night Football.
1:07:38
Speaker 2: So it's funny when he went into the Hall of
1:07:39
Speaker 2: Fame in eighty seven, he was the first of the
1:07:41
Speaker 2: seventies Steelers to go in and they have the parade
1:07:44
Speaker 2: through Canton and people are running up to him and
1:07:47
Speaker 2: Stealers fans and they're giving them coke coke bottles the
1:07:50
Speaker 2: minute real quick. He was born Charles Edward Green, but
1:07:53
Speaker 2: his aunt called him Joe, hoping he would become the
1:07:56
Speaker 2: next Joe Lewis, didn't have a father and house. He
1:07:59
Speaker 2: was actually bullied a lot in school. So this is
1:08:02
Speaker 2: something and it kind of comes back to Chuck no
1:08:04
Speaker 2: There's a few players on this team that had kind
1:08:07
Speaker 2: of father issues. You know, again in the late sixties
1:08:10
Speaker 2: early seventies were in starting divorces becoming more prevalent or
1:08:14
Speaker 2: in the you know, they are captured epitomized by the
1:08:16
Speaker 2: song Papa was a rolling stone by the Temptations, right,
1:08:19
Speaker 2: and Joe Green was one of those. And with Noel,
1:08:22
Speaker 2: you don't hear him described as a father figure, but
1:08:26
Speaker 2: there must have been something that resonated with you know,
1:08:28
Speaker 2: several of these key players who didn't have that father
1:08:31
Speaker 2: figure or had a poor relationship with their father, and
1:08:34
Speaker 2: they were able to connect with knowlsenhow he was able
1:08:37
Speaker 2: to listen the best out of.
1:08:38
Speaker 1: Them well, and you know, It's interesting about the decision
1:08:41
Speaker 1: to draft Joe Green is that there were others arguing
1:08:44
Speaker 1: that year, you know, as always take a quarterback. The
1:08:47
Speaker 1: Notre Dame quarterback was Terry Hanratty and he was from
1:08:51
Speaker 1: the area, and there was some pressure there and Nola
1:08:54
Speaker 1: was just like, Nope, I know who I want. I
1:08:57
Speaker 1: want Joe Green.
1:08:58
Speaker 2: So I would like to give credit to this scout,
1:09:00
Speaker 2: Jess Thompson, who who scouted him in North Texas state.
1:09:04
Speaker 2: His description was agile, mobile and hostile as hell.
1:09:10
Speaker 1: I love that. Aile, mobile and hostile that is that
1:09:14
Speaker 1: is pretty good. You can always get me if you
1:09:16
Speaker 1: can get a little rhyme in there.
1:09:18
Speaker 2: Our junior calls Green that he scouted him, watch film
1:09:22
Speaker 2: of him, calls him the most important guy we ever drafted.
1:09:25
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, look, it's interesting with the Steelers
1:09:30
Speaker 1: and the issue of race, because if you said it's never,
1:09:34
Speaker 1: it's it's both never really a huge issue, and yet
1:09:37
Speaker 1: it is they make they're they're at the forefront of
1:09:42
Speaker 1: progress without sort of it looking like it was intentional.
1:09:48
Speaker 1: And you know, Joe Green, you know, there was a
1:09:54
Speaker 1: there's a moment in the in the in the Steelers
1:09:56
Speaker 1: in seventy four. I think it's the seventy four season
1:09:59
Speaker 1: where there's a real quarterback controversy. They have a black
1:10:02
Speaker 1: quarterback and Joe Gilliam, white quarterback, and Terry Bradshaw also
1:10:05
Speaker 1: have to think Terry Hanratty's there, and there's a real
1:10:07
Speaker 1: question mark about who's And it's the type of thing
1:10:10
Speaker 1: that turned racial in the fan base. Yes, and it
1:10:13
Speaker 1: became a race thing in the fan base. It was
1:10:15
Speaker 1: never race in the locker room. And in fact, it
1:10:18
Speaker 1: was Joe arguably Joe Green that we don't know this right,
1:10:23
Speaker 1: we can't crawl inside Chuck Knowles head, but it was
1:10:25
Speaker 1: Joe Green saying, Terry Bradshaw's the quarterback. I want to
1:10:28
Speaker 1: see us lead this team that likely created you know.
1:10:34
Speaker 1: I mean when Green spoke, it seemed like the coaches listen.
1:10:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, he commanded the locker room. There's another story with
1:10:42
Speaker 2: Gilliam that actually stalled John John Stalwart at the wide
1:10:45
Speaker 2: receiver who was playing his music and one of the
1:10:51
Speaker 2: white linebackers didn't like it, and you know, turns it off,
1:10:56
Speaker 2: and you know there's kind of like a battle over
1:10:59
Speaker 2: the music and what music's going to be played and
1:11:02
Speaker 2: who can play it, and you know what style is
1:11:04
Speaker 2: going to be played, and so Mijo just cuts the
1:11:10
Speaker 2: chord to it, like slices the chord, So now no
1:11:12
Speaker 2: music's going to be played. He cuts the chord to
1:11:15
Speaker 2: star Wars box and Star Wars later says, you know what,
1:11:19
Speaker 2: actually that was a good move by him because it
1:11:21
Speaker 2: kind of ended that argument. Right. There is going to
1:11:24
Speaker 2: be no more debate over music because me and Joe
1:11:26
Speaker 2: Green ended it. And who knows which music mean Joe
1:11:29
Speaker 2: Green preferred, but he decided, you know what, we're not
1:11:32
Speaker 2: going to have any music because this music is leading
1:11:34
Speaker 2: to dissension. So that was a leadership back cutting the
1:11:37
Speaker 2: chord of the boombox.
1:11:40
Speaker 1: This is probably a good way to bring in Bill Nunn, right,
1:11:44
Speaker 1: And I know when we talked about I want to
1:11:46
Speaker 1: take people a little bit on the inside of our
1:11:48
Speaker 1: sort of planning process here. And as we've we've been
1:11:51
Speaker 1: brainstorming about which franchises to do first, second, and third,
1:11:56
Speaker 1: you know your passion about the Steelers, Bill none draft
1:12:02
Speaker 1: HBCU players that like this is a story that if
1:12:06
Speaker 1: there's if there's ever a story with the Steelers that
1:12:09
Speaker 1: does not get enough attention, you know, people may associate
1:12:12
Speaker 1: the Steelers when it comes to race with the Rooney Roll,
1:12:15
Speaker 1: understandably so. But it's Bill Nunn and the black Press
1:12:20
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Courier that arguably transforms the Steelers into their dynasty.
1:12:26
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's a sports writer, ja, a sportswriter hear
1:12:29
Speaker 2: the story, well, you know, Wendell Smith. And and there's
1:12:33
Speaker 2: a there's a through line actually through our Dodger story.
1:12:36
Speaker 2: And Wendell Smith was the writer for the Pittsburgh Courier,
1:12:40
Speaker 2: African American writer who basically pointed out Jackie Robinson to
1:12:45
Speaker 2: branch Rickey. You know, I'm not sure branch Rickey discovers
1:12:49
Speaker 2: Jackie if not for for Wendell Smith's and hey, you
1:12:51
Speaker 2: really should see this guy. And one of the most
1:12:54
Speaker 2: consequential things that happen in the history of American sports. Right. So,
1:13:01
Speaker 2: Wendell Smith's connection here is that he was he leaves
1:13:04
Speaker 2: the Pittsburgh Courier for the Chicago Herald American, and that
1:13:09
Speaker 2: creates the opening that is filled by Bill Nutt and.
1:13:14
Speaker 1: Bill Nunn's fathers, the owner of the paper.
1:13:16
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, but none wasn't sure that you know, he
1:13:19
Speaker 2: wanted to do this. But here's this opportunity to do.
1:13:23
Speaker 1: It, and he corners the market. He becomes basically like, look,
1:13:28
Speaker 1: all of us journalists have done this right, and you
1:13:31
Speaker 1: know political journalism. I became sort of a data geek
1:13:33
Speaker 1: early before that was cool. You know, I know you've
1:13:36
Speaker 1: had your specializations. You know, every journalist wants to specialize.
1:13:40
Speaker 1: And Bill Nunn became the guy following HBCU football that
1:13:45
Speaker 1: nobody else was doing right.
1:13:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he'd have the historically black college university
1:13:50
Speaker 2: all American lists, and you know, most NFL teams weren't
1:13:54
Speaker 2: paying attention. It helped that the Steelers were in Pittsburgh,
1:13:59
Speaker 2: and so the Rooneys he said, hey, we can, we
1:14:03
Speaker 2: can benefit from this.
1:14:04
Speaker 1: So uh, None was a little but None was a
1:14:07
Speaker 1: little skeptical of the Rooneyes because he never he didn't
1:14:09
Speaker 1: think much of the Steelers as a franchise. He didn't
1:14:11
Speaker 1: think much of the team, and he I think he
1:14:13
Speaker 1: thought maybe they didn't think much of you know, and
1:14:17
Speaker 1: didn't take it seriously. Well, they were.
1:14:20
Speaker 2: He was having a hard time getting credentialed for the games, right,
1:14:23
Speaker 2: and so pest procks Is still weren't the most integrated places.
1:14:26
Speaker 2: So he stopped coming to the games. He's like, you know,
1:14:28
Speaker 2: if you're not going to make it easy, if you're
1:14:30
Speaker 2: gonna put me through all this stuff to get a credential,
1:14:32
Speaker 2: you know, remember the black Press. If you're not going
1:14:34
Speaker 2: to treat me equally, I'm just not going to come
1:14:35
Speaker 2: with the games. And so Dan Rooney notices this. He said,
1:14:39
Speaker 2: why why haven't I seen you? And he says he
1:14:41
Speaker 2: wants to meet, and so None says he asked him
1:14:45
Speaker 2: his opinion, and None says, your team's not that good.
1:14:48
Speaker 2: I don't think he'll ever be a winner. So Dan
1:14:51
Speaker 2: Rooney says, why don't you help change it? So he
1:14:53
Speaker 2: asked him to help scout for the Steelers, you know,
1:14:58
Speaker 2: but None continued writing. But he's now scouting. And it
1:15:03
Speaker 2: wasn't that unusual, I know, Chuck, that might raise your
1:15:05
Speaker 2: conflict divis flags as a journalist.
1:15:08
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I thought about this, and I
1:15:11
Speaker 1: would three years ago. I would have raised my conflict
1:15:13
Speaker 1: of it. What is the era we're living in now?
1:15:16
Speaker 2: Conflict? Right, it's different than Troy. It's probably it's not
1:15:20
Speaker 2: as bad, I would say as Troy Aikman. Uh, you know,
1:15:23
Speaker 2: calling games for ESPN money at football and serving as
1:15:25
Speaker 2: a paid consultant for the Miami Dolphins.
1:15:27
Speaker 1: Where he read Tom Brady.
1:15:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tom Brady is the ownership steak. And you know
1:15:31
Speaker 2: it's other sports too, like Shaquille O'Neil and Grant Hill,
1:15:34
Speaker 2: they have ownership.
1:15:35
Speaker 1: But this is not old. I mean I remember my
1:15:38
Speaker 1: father complaining all the time that Frank Broyles was the
1:15:42
Speaker 1: color commentator for college football with Keith Jackson during the
1:15:45
Speaker 1: during the eighties. You know what else Frank Broyles was
1:15:48
Speaker 1: doing at the time. He was the athletic director for
1:15:50
Speaker 1: the University of Arkansas. Like the active athletic director for
1:15:54
Speaker 1: the University of Arkansas.
1:15:56
Speaker 2: Is that fair? So Sid Hartman and many Apolis long
1:16:01
Speaker 2: time sports columnists in Minneapolis, like I'm talking like seven
1:16:05
Speaker 2: decades long, he was like the first general manager for
1:16:10
Speaker 2: the Minneapolis Lakers and the sports columnist in town. So
1:16:13
Speaker 2: it's something that's old that it kind of went away
1:16:15
Speaker 2: and now it's definitely back.
1:16:17
Speaker 1: But right, we got wosh Right, he left sports writing
1:16:19
Speaker 1: to go run the SAT though.
1:16:22
Speaker 2: He's not still writing. He left there to become the
1:16:24
Speaker 2: general manager at Saint Bonaventure's, So he didn't try to
1:16:27
Speaker 2: do both. But Bill nonne here was doing both. But
1:16:30
Speaker 2: he uh he, it was a great inside and it
1:16:36
Speaker 2: leads the way right at a time when when major
1:16:41
Speaker 2: colleges aren't looking at black players and a lot of
1:16:45
Speaker 2: NFL teams aren't looking at black players or players from
1:16:48
Speaker 2: HBCUs major. Right, some of the guys he finds, John Stalwarts,
1:16:55
Speaker 2: mel Blown, Ernie Holmes, Donnie Shell, Frank Lewis, Joe gilliam. Right,
1:16:59
Speaker 2: they they've they've got disadvantage because they're taking these HBCU
1:17:02
Speaker 2: guys seriously.
1:17:03
Speaker 1: In that era, even the major college programs that were
1:17:06
Speaker 1: integrated only were a little bit.
1:17:08
Speaker 2: Integrated, right, you know, it was they did have a quota, right, there.
1:17:14
Speaker 1: Was clearly quotas you know, some of them may not
1:17:17
Speaker 1: admit it at Alabama or at Penn State or you know,
1:17:20
Speaker 1: but there certainly seemed to be at the beginning or else.
1:17:24
Speaker 1: I mean, let's be frank, these HBCU programs wouldn't be
1:17:28
Speaker 1: as successful as they were in the late sixties and
1:17:30
Speaker 1: early seventies, you know.
1:17:32
Speaker 2: And it builds on each other because the Steelers have,
1:17:35
Speaker 2: you know, because they're willing to draft players from HBCUs,
1:17:39
Speaker 2: it becomes a better place for HBCU graduates to play, right,
1:17:44
Speaker 2: You've got you've got a locker room. If you're a
1:17:47
Speaker 2: black player from the South coming to Pittsford for the
1:17:49
Speaker 2: first time, well you have someone who maybe just went
1:17:51
Speaker 2: through that same experience a couple of years ago, so
1:17:54
Speaker 2: you can have bonding within that locker room. Right. So
1:17:57
Speaker 2: it's a friendly environment.
1:18:00
Speaker 1: You know.
1:18:01
Speaker 2: And what's interesting to meet, Chuck, is that the Steelers
1:18:03
Speaker 2: are becoming more of a melting pot at a time
1:18:07
Speaker 2: where in America's racial fault lines are widening. Right, it's
1:18:10
Speaker 2: February sixty eight, the Kerner committte You know, we're a
1:18:13
Speaker 2: long way from like the March on Washington in sixty
1:18:15
Speaker 2: four and kind of the peak the crest of the
1:18:17
Speaker 2: civil rights movement right now by the late sixties. So
1:18:21
Speaker 2: February sixty eight is when the Kerner Commission report comes out.
1:18:23
Speaker 2: That's the one that had the famous line, our nation
1:18:25
Speaker 2: is moving toward two societies, one black, one white, separate
1:18:29
Speaker 2: and unequal. And then in April nineteen sixty eight, Martin
1:18:32
Speaker 2: Luther King is assassinated. All the riots and the unrest
1:18:37
Speaker 2: that follows that. But you know, the Steelers are going
1:18:42
Speaker 2: in a different direction from the rest of the nation,
1:18:44
Speaker 2: and I think it's part of it because of their backgrounds. Right,
1:18:47
Speaker 2: Chuck no Again grows up in a part of Cleveland
1:18:50
Speaker 2: where he's playing football with black people. He's just not
1:18:55
Speaker 2: caught up in race. Rocky Blier, their running back who
1:18:58
Speaker 2: served in Vietnam, he was wounded by a bullet and
1:19:01
Speaker 2: a grenade, and it's a black soldier. You know, he's
1:19:04
Speaker 2: serving in the integrated military. It's a black soldier that
1:19:06
Speaker 2: carries him the final steps of the way to safety. Right,
1:19:10
Speaker 2: and Blier never found out his name. But I would
1:19:13
Speaker 2: imagine you have fond thoughts toward black people if one
1:19:16
Speaker 2: of them saved your life. Right, So, the Steelers are
1:19:21
Speaker 2: going in a different direction from the racial unrest at
1:19:24
Speaker 2: that time.
1:19:26
Speaker 1: It's not only good for society, it's good for football,
1:19:28
Speaker 1: winning football games.
1:19:30
Speaker 2: I mean, one last thing on Bill Nunn, though, is
1:19:32
Speaker 2: that it's this window of time, you know. So eventually
1:19:36
Speaker 2: he goes over to the Steelers full time, right, And
1:19:38
Speaker 2: it's partly because at that time, the black press is
1:19:43
Speaker 2: in decline, and you know, the traditionally white newspapers are
1:19:48
Speaker 2: not really in the process or they're not prioritizing hiring
1:19:52
Speaker 2: black riders. Right. So maybe if the newspapers of the time,
1:19:57
Speaker 2: the big papers, had been more advanced, maybe you would
1:19:59
Speaker 2: left pips Er to go for the the New York
1:20:00
Speaker 2: Times with the Washington Post illustrated. Yeah, but that really
1:20:04
Speaker 2: wasn't an option for him back time. So he is
1:20:06
Speaker 2: available because of the racism that exists in the media world.
1:20:11
Speaker 1: Probably peak Bill Nunn's story right in the legend of
1:20:14
Speaker 1: Bill Nunn and the Steelers is the John Stalworth is
1:20:17
Speaker 1: of course the seventy four draft itself, but the stall Wart, like,
1:20:21
Speaker 1: it's the story, and it's in multiple places. I got
1:20:26
Speaker 1: it in the Dan Runy book. I know you got
1:20:27
Speaker 1: it in the other books about how essentially Chuck Knowle's
1:20:31
Speaker 1: obsessed with Stalwart. They enter this seventy four season. I
1:20:34
Speaker 1: mean we you know, we open it. The immaculate reception
1:20:37
Speaker 1: happens at the end of seventy two. They don't get
1:20:39
Speaker 1: there again in seventy three, but they make they keep
1:20:41
Speaker 1: making the playoffs. But they realize they need they have
1:20:44
Speaker 1: a great defense, they need to open up their offense.
1:20:46
Speaker 1: They need they need some receivers, they need some and
1:20:52
Speaker 1: and so Lynn swan is obviously is they get early
1:20:56
Speaker 1: and he wants right and he wants me.
1:20:59
Speaker 2: And Noah wanted to Swant or he wanted Stalworth ahead
1:21:03
Speaker 2: of Swant.
1:21:03
Speaker 1: He thought Stalwarth right, he was the number one guy
1:21:06
Speaker 1: in his head the whole time. And Bill Nunn is
1:21:11
Speaker 1: one of the scouts that goes to the I guess
1:21:15
Speaker 1: you could call him pro days, right, either at the
1:21:18
Speaker 1: Senior Bowl or you have these various pro days, and
1:21:21
Speaker 1: Stalworth has a pro Day and the first the film
1:21:25
Speaker 1: that everybody gets of Stalworth is Stalwarth doing some of
1:21:30
Speaker 1: his runs in like this terrible weather. So he's his
1:21:34
Speaker 1: times are slower, and so None, for whatever reason, thinks
1:21:42
Speaker 1: that this is an issue and decides to stay back.
1:21:44
Speaker 1: Everybody else is moving on, and he then gets Stalwarth
1:21:49
Speaker 1: to do the times one more time, just on his own.
1:21:52
Speaker 1: So he's got his own and he realizes, no, Stalwarth
1:21:55
Speaker 1: is what everybody thinks he is, but the rest of
1:21:58
Speaker 1: the league is going to have this basically faulty film
1:22:00
Speaker 1: of him, and so he you know, basicly, Noel wants
1:22:07
Speaker 1: to draft him early and None is telling him no, no, no, no,
1:22:10
Speaker 1: He'll be there in the fourth round. The second round
1:22:12
Speaker 1: comes around, he wants to take Stalwarth. No, no, no, no,
1:22:14
Speaker 1: you can wait. The Steelers that here don't have a
1:22:16
Speaker 1: third round pick. You can wait till the fourth round.
1:22:19
Speaker 1: I promise you he'll be there. And luckily, probably for
1:22:21
Speaker 1: Bill Nunn's relationship with Chuck Nole, Stalwart was there in
1:22:25
Speaker 1: the fourth round.
1:22:25
Speaker 2: One click line about Swan. Lionel Taylor, the Steelers receivers
1:22:31
Speaker 2: coach at the time, so he Swan. He saw Swan
1:22:33
Speaker 2: at the Senior Bowl, and his scott of report was quote,
1:22:37
Speaker 2: only thing I know about Swan is this some bitch
1:22:40
Speaker 2: gets open and catches the football. Classic old school scouting, Right.
1:22:46
Speaker 1: That's one way to find out, right, Well, you know, hey,
1:22:49
Speaker 1: it's it is what it is.
1:22:52
Speaker 2: So those s behind the scenes stories on some of
1:22:54
Speaker 2: the key draft picks, and when we come back, we'll
1:22:57
Speaker 2: really dive into that draft run that the Steelers had
1:23:00
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies that made them dynastic. That's coming
1:23:03
Speaker 2: up after this.
1:23:04
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to what was essentially the draft machine.
1:23:09
Speaker 1: So just to recap here, nine Hall of famers for
1:23:13
Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh Steelers were drafted over six draft from sixty
1:23:17
Speaker 1: nine to seventy four. The first one was Joe Green,
1:23:22
Speaker 1: drafted in sixty nine, Mel Blunt and Terry Bradshaw on seventy,
1:23:26
Speaker 1: Jack Hammond seventy one, Franco Harrison seventy two, and then
1:23:29
Speaker 1: of course that iconic nineteen seventy four class.
1:23:34
Speaker 2: It is.
1:23:36
Speaker 1: Just easily and when you see how many of them
1:23:39
Speaker 1: ended up in the Hall of Fame, really is the
1:23:41
Speaker 1: greatest run draft run that there is. You can't. I mean,
1:23:44
Speaker 1: even when the NBA was just handing draft picks to
1:23:47
Speaker 1: the Lakers and Celtics Willie Nilly in the early eighties,
1:23:51
Speaker 1: the right or getting sold right or they were like
1:23:55
Speaker 1: it always felt like, how did the Lakers win a
1:23:57
Speaker 1: championship get the number one pick again? Right? You know
1:24:00
Speaker 1: some of the Celtics and the Lakers ended up with
1:24:02
Speaker 1: all those guys. But setting that aside, I mean, there
1:24:04
Speaker 1: really is nothing. It's not even close it, you know.
1:24:10
Speaker 1: I guess Duncan and Robinson with San Antonio might be
1:24:14
Speaker 1: you know, and that wasn't even back to back Heeres.
1:24:16
Speaker 2: So part of it is, you know, the Steelers going
1:24:19
Speaker 2: beyond the norm. So you might've heard the term blesto
1:24:22
Speaker 2: draft service. I learned in the research for this.
1:24:25
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that was.
1:24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an so blesto. It comes from a
1:24:30
Speaker 2: combination of Bears, Lions, Eagles, Steelers, the b L e
1:24:34
Speaker 2: S t U. That's where it comes from. So there
1:24:37
Speaker 2: was a consortium. So the Cowboys were really getting into
1:24:42
Speaker 2: computer data and computer assisted drafting, so they would they
1:24:47
Speaker 2: would crunch all the numbers and they were kind of
1:24:49
Speaker 2: ahead of the game and that and the Cowboys who
1:24:51
Speaker 2: became the Steelers' rivals in the nineteen seventies, right, so
1:24:55
Speaker 2: they were they were drafting on the basis this computer
1:24:58
Speaker 2: assisted drafting and computerizing your draft process. And again the
1:25:02
Speaker 2: Steelers won by incorporating Bill Nunn and really gaining the
1:25:08
Speaker 2: edge on getting the players out of the HPCU schools.
1:25:12
Speaker 2: So different approaches. You know, they both worked. You can
1:25:18
Speaker 2: argue the Steelers way worked a little bit better, but
1:25:21
Speaker 2: it's not like the Cowboys. You know, we're falling far behind.
1:25:25
Speaker 2: But it is amazing how those two franchises really left
1:25:29
Speaker 2: the NFL in the dust.
1:25:31
Speaker 1: You know, there was one time where Chuck Knowles's choice
1:25:36
Speaker 1: was overruled by ownership and it was due to a
1:25:40
Speaker 1: certain star running back for the Penn State Niitmy Lyons
1:25:46
Speaker 1: at the time. Noel wants Robert Newhouse and he's a
1:25:49
Speaker 1: running back trying to and who ends up, by the way,
1:25:53
Speaker 1: a Dallas cowboy. They would see later in a Super Bowl.
1:25:57
Speaker 1: But Art Rooney, Junior Dan's brother once Franco Harris. Franco
1:26:03
Speaker 1: Harris is the Penn State kind of hometown if you will.
1:26:07
Speaker 1: There's you know, the Italian you know, Franco's army that
1:26:11
Speaker 1: ends up developing later.
1:26:12
Speaker 2: Franco's Italian Armies, right, Yeah, started by a local pizza
1:26:15
Speaker 2: shop owner.
1:26:16
Speaker 1: And that you know, not everybody was thrilled with Franco
1:26:19
Speaker 1: and it wasn't clear, but you know, first preseason game
1:26:23
Speaker 1: he shows up in takes his first pitch, he gets
1:26:25
Speaker 1: seventy five yards and it scores a touchdown and the
1:26:28
Speaker 1: rest ends up being history. But that was one of
1:26:30
Speaker 1: the few times where Noel got.
1:26:32
Speaker 2: Overruled, Yeah, and it paid off pretty quickly. So he
1:26:35
Speaker 2: rushed for a thousand yards as a rookie and rushed
1:26:39
Speaker 2: for a thousand yards over six straight seasons from nineteen
1:26:42
Speaker 2: seventy four to seventy nine. And that's when a thousand
1:26:44
Speaker 2: yards meant. These were fourteen game seasons, right now, we
1:26:47
Speaker 2: got seventeen game seasons. Thousand isn't so much. But in
1:26:50
Speaker 2: the fourteen game era, he was rushing for one thousand
1:26:53
Speaker 2: yards regularly. Now Oj Simpson, of course, rushed for two
1:26:56
Speaker 2: thousand yards in fourteen games. But Franco was a consistent
1:26:59
Speaker 2: run there. Took some flak for, you know, not always
1:27:04
Speaker 2: absorbing punishment. He wasn't Jim Brown, right, Like, the sidelines
1:27:08
Speaker 2: were there and he had the choice between stepping out
1:27:10
Speaker 2: of bounds or you know, getting hit by some linebacker.
1:27:12
Speaker 2: He was going to step out of bay, by the way.
1:27:14
Speaker 1: That always kind of followed him a little bit. I
1:27:16
Speaker 1: remember when he was starting to break some all time records,
1:27:18
Speaker 1: there were there was a lot of yeah butts with
1:27:20
Speaker 1: Franco in the mid eighties. There was a lot of
1:27:24
Speaker 1: yeah butts and I and in hindsight, pretty unfair.
1:27:29
Speaker 2: Welso, I mean we see, especially today, we see the
1:27:31
Speaker 2: short lifespan of NFL running backs and the ones who
1:27:35
Speaker 2: take all that punishment.
1:27:36
Speaker 1: I mean, how many running backs look at historability.
1:27:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did last for a long time, and
1:27:42
Speaker 2: how many running backs last six years, let alone put
1:27:44
Speaker 2: together six straight thousand yard rushing seasons, right, So he
1:27:47
Speaker 2: was he was a thoughtful person. He's thoughtful on the field.
1:27:50
Speaker 2: He was very thoughtful with his answers as well. So
1:27:55
Speaker 2: you know, an interesting person that the son of a
1:27:59
Speaker 2: black who served in the army in Italy and World
1:28:02
Speaker 2: War two and met Franco's mother in Pisa. She was
1:28:06
Speaker 2: someone who hid from the Nazis during the war, you know,
1:28:09
Speaker 2: and I like that, you know, really Italian. She had
1:28:14
Speaker 2: brothers with names like Giuseppe and Mario and siblings that
1:28:17
Speaker 2: named Daniela. But it's important though, he himself identified as black,
1:28:22
Speaker 2: you know, despite all the you know, the Franco's Italian Army,
1:28:24
Speaker 2: and they ran it by him right before they started
1:28:29
Speaker 2: this up, and you know, he okayed it. So we
1:28:31
Speaker 2: kind of had the best of both worlds. Like but
1:28:34
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, Parmer's point out, like the
1:28:36
Speaker 2: black waiters in the stadium, they were rooted for Franco too.
1:28:39
Speaker 2: They saw him as one of them, and you know,
1:28:42
Speaker 2: the Italian army saw him as one of them. So
1:28:46
Speaker 2: again we talked about the melting pot of the Steelers
1:28:50
Speaker 2: really embodied by Franco.
1:28:51
Speaker 1: Franco in some ways the perfect yeah, the perfect symbol
1:28:55
Speaker 1: for the team seventy two. I mean, we we get there,
1:28:59
Speaker 1: you know, The reason the Steelers arguably don't make a
1:29:02
Speaker 1: Super Bowl is they have everything going for him except quarterback. Right. Yes,
1:29:07
Speaker 1: they drafted Bradshaw, they'd had hand Randy, they had Joe Gilliam,
1:29:12
Speaker 1: and Joe Gilliam is the one with the live with
1:29:17
Speaker 1: a live arm. And you know back then quarterbacks called
1:29:22
Speaker 1: their own plays. Yeah, and Gilliam just guess what Gilliam
1:29:27
Speaker 1: loved to do, throw the ball deep. He wanted to
1:29:31
Speaker 1: push and push and push, and he had some success early.
1:29:36
Speaker 1: And you know, he gets in mostly because I think
1:29:39
Speaker 1: everybody's injured, and he gets in at first and then
1:29:41
Speaker 1: he has some success. But it drives Noel crazy because
1:29:44
Speaker 1: he won't he won't use the game plan that Noel wants.
1:29:48
Speaker 2: He won't run the ball on that it's tricky for him.
1:29:51
Speaker 2: But he plays well in the exhibition season, and Noel
1:29:55
Speaker 2: says it'd be hard not to start him right at
1:30:00
Speaker 2: a time when you're not seeing black corveback. That's not normal.
1:30:04
Speaker 2: It's not you know what we've become accustomed to. You
1:30:06
Speaker 2: can imagine this in the early seventies, the newspaper headline
1:30:10
Speaker 2: when they name him the starter is guess who's coming
1:30:12
Speaker 2: to quarterback? You know, not so subtle playoff the guess
1:30:15
Speaker 2: Who's coming to dinner, which the Sports Illustrated cover Pittsburgh's
1:30:20
Speaker 2: black quarterback that was on the cover of Sports Illustrated,
1:30:25
Speaker 2: so uh, you know, it's a big deal. It made
1:30:28
Speaker 2: the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather when he was
1:30:32
Speaker 2: named the starter. So and Bradshaw is not happy about this.
1:30:36
Speaker 2: He wants to be traded over it. So uh, you know,
1:30:41
Speaker 2: Art Senior, he liked Bradshaw, go to dinner with them,
1:30:43
Speaker 2: they watched money and at football together. He liked Bradshaw.
1:30:46
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, Joe Green goes to uh, goes to
1:30:50
Speaker 2: Nole and says it should be Bradshaw Gilliam.
1:30:55
Speaker 1: You know.
1:30:55
Speaker 2: Now he's dealing with racist letters, death threats, but the
1:31:00
Speaker 2: the physical toll is getting to him, so he gets pounded.
1:31:03
Speaker 2: Week three, they lose to the Raiders, their rival, seventeen
1:31:08
Speaker 2: to nothing, and he's in severe pain. And that night
1:31:12
Speaker 2: he gets talked into going to a party and he
1:31:17
Speaker 2: tries Heroin for the first time. And you know later
1:31:23
Speaker 2: famously with Brett Fire for example, painkillers and opioids withou
1:31:27
Speaker 2: in those addiction issues to deal with the pain and
1:31:32
Speaker 2: the physical toll of playing NFL football and quarterback in particular,
1:31:37
Speaker 2: so that that wasn't far his downfall, right, but it
1:31:41
Speaker 2: became a major issue for him. And he was far
1:31:44
Speaker 2: from the only NFL player to become addicted to opioids
1:31:48
Speaker 2: and painkillers, and in this case it was heroin. Though
1:31:51
Speaker 2: for Gilliam, you.
1:31:53
Speaker 1: Know, when you think about the seventies and the number
1:31:55
Speaker 1: of players that could have been the number of could
1:31:58
Speaker 1: have been right in a lot of leagues, it was
1:32:02
Speaker 1: baseball back. I mean, you know the drug. You know,
1:32:05
Speaker 1: the drug. The drugs of the seventies and eighties took
1:32:09
Speaker 1: away a lot of careers that might have been Hall
1:32:10
Speaker 1: of Fame, right. We don't know what Joe Gilliam. Maybe
1:32:13
Speaker 1: he gets onto another team. Sure, maybe Pittsburgh plays Bradshaw,
1:32:17
Speaker 1: but maybe Gilliam gets on another team and you know,
1:32:20
Speaker 1: he becomes, you know, the first iconic black NFL quarterback.
1:32:26
Speaker 1: You know, before there's Doug Williams, before those warn moon
1:32:30
Speaker 1: on that front, you.
1:32:32
Speaker 2: Know, and the Steelers were for one and one with him.
1:32:34
Speaker 2: You know, they're winning. He was, His performances were run
1:32:37
Speaker 2: even but you know the fans are channing, we want Bradshaw,
1:32:41
Speaker 2: we want Bradshaw.
1:32:43
Speaker 1: It's still hard not to see race sort of circulating
1:32:47
Speaker 1: among the fans, right, which is why the team. The
1:32:50
Speaker 1: fact that the team doesn't fall apart and get sucked
1:32:54
Speaker 1: into that, that clearly is You've got to give both
1:32:57
Speaker 1: Noel and Green credit for that.
1:33:00
Speaker 2: You give the Steelers for giving Gilliam the shot in
1:33:02
Speaker 2: the first place, knowing what the reaction was likely going
1:33:06
Speaker 2: to be. Right again, they were unafraid of race. And
1:33:09
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily get the sense that they were forerunners
1:33:14
Speaker 2: and leaders on race, but they were unafraid of any
1:33:18
Speaker 2: racial issue.
1:33:20
Speaker 1: It's funny we both keep dancing around this, right, because
1:33:23
Speaker 1: you can't sit here and say they were They were
1:33:25
Speaker 1: like they didn't want to. They weren't at the forefront
1:33:27
Speaker 1: of anything, arguably, but they were never going to be
1:33:30
Speaker 1: the last team.
1:33:31
Speaker 2: Right, they were unencumbered by race.
1:33:36
Speaker 1: Well, Bill Nunn, look, Dan Rooney puts, it's a bit
1:33:39
Speaker 1: self serving to put it in your own autobiography, right,
1:33:42
Speaker 1: So I am I fully want to couch this quote
1:33:46
Speaker 1: that way. But Dan Rooney puts a Bill Nunn quote
1:33:50
Speaker 1: that Bill Nunn gave to somebody else about Dan Rooney,
1:33:53
Speaker 1: and he said, he's the first man I ever met
1:33:56
Speaker 1: who I truly believe didn't see race. And it's hard
1:34:01
Speaker 1: not to believe that with Dan Rooney when his story
1:34:04
Speaker 1: sort of how he grew up and you grow when
1:34:07
Speaker 1: you grow up around that sports world that his father
1:34:10
Speaker 1: occupied in the early days, well it was it wasn't
1:34:15
Speaker 1: race blind, but it was sort of it was integrated, right,
1:34:19
Speaker 1: the boxing was integrated, you know, So it was they
1:34:25
Speaker 1: lived a more integrated life than most segregated communities did.
1:34:31
Speaker 1: I think the Rooneys did.
1:34:33
Speaker 2: And like they literally walked it, right, So they draft
1:34:36
Speaker 2: the Steelers draft white white. He's from Dallas. He's wary
1:34:40
Speaker 2: of the racism in Pittsburgh. And he would walk around though,
1:34:44
Speaker 2: and he would see Rooney in all parts of town, right,
1:34:47
Speaker 2: black white, you know, you'd see r. Rooney there, and
1:34:51
Speaker 2: he gained respect from him that way, right, And so
1:34:54
Speaker 2: literally they didn't just talk it, they walked it. I
1:34:57
Speaker 2: love that.
1:34:58
Speaker 1: Joe Green admits he goes, man, if you'd asked me
1:35:00
Speaker 1: which team, what's the last team I wanted to be
1:35:03
Speaker 1: drafted by, he said it was the Pittsburgh Steelers.
1:35:07
Speaker 2: And him and Art Rooney became really close, and you know,
1:35:11
Speaker 2: Art Senior would send him postcards and Rooney was a
1:35:16
Speaker 2: big postcard guy. But when when after he passed away,
1:35:23
Speaker 2: that they found so many parts cards and exchanges that
1:35:26
Speaker 2: that Rooney and Joe Green had.
1:35:29
Speaker 1: So here we are. They've built the structure, they've assembled
1:35:33
Speaker 1: the talent, they found their coach, and it takes us
1:35:35
Speaker 1: to the moment that arguably the dynasty is built on. Now,
1:35:39
Speaker 1: I will tell you this. If you'd asked me fifteen
1:35:43
Speaker 1: years ago, did the Immaculate Reception happen? You know, did
1:35:49
Speaker 1: after the Steelers win? Did they win the Super Bowl?
1:35:52
Speaker 1: I would have said yes.
1:35:54
Speaker 2: I think you asked me five weeks ago, right, I
1:35:56
Speaker 2: would have said yes that you.
1:35:58
Speaker 1: Know, it's funny, the Immaculate Reception births the dynasty, but
1:36:03
Speaker 1: they don't make the Super Bowl that year. They actually
1:36:06
Speaker 1: lose the next week. And you know what, when you
1:36:09
Speaker 1: go through the story.
1:36:11
Speaker 2: They lose to the undefeated Dolphins team.
1:36:13
Speaker 1: Right, it is well, and that's what I want to
1:36:16
Speaker 1: get to because it's it's arguably eight days of probably
1:36:22
Speaker 1: the most memorable eight days in the history of Pittsburgh sports, right,
1:36:28
Speaker 1: And I think that's why we probably got to go
1:36:31
Speaker 1: back and live in it. So and I have to
1:36:35
Speaker 1: tell you, I just fell in love with Dan Rooney's
1:36:38
Speaker 1: version of this and how he and how he did it.
1:36:40
Speaker 1: So we're it's December twenty third, nineteen seventy two, and
1:36:45
Speaker 1: as you say, the number one seed is the undefeated
1:36:47
Speaker 1: Miami Dolphins. It is this is Steelers Raiders, and as
1:36:51
Speaker 1: we've now outlined to you, the Raiders are really the
1:36:55
Speaker 1: chief rival of the Steelers in the seventies. And you're
1:36:58
Speaker 1: starting to see this budding rivalry was actually off the field, right,
1:37:01
Speaker 1: Al Davis complaining about the steel Where the Steelers getting
1:37:06
Speaker 1: everything that they want in the AFC and all of
1:37:08
Speaker 1: this stuff. So it's it's it's starting to turn into
1:37:11
Speaker 1: a rivalry and this game will will will cement it.
1:37:15
Speaker 1: But here's the other significance about this game. This is
1:37:19
Speaker 1: the first Steelers home playoff game JAA in twenty five years.
1:37:25
Speaker 1: Twenty five years, right, an entire generation of fans had
1:37:31
Speaker 1: never seen a playoff football game in Pittsburgh. And to
1:37:37
Speaker 1: say the place was electric. On Dan Runey's account, he goes,
1:37:41
Speaker 1: he felt like the concrete might give way. That's how
1:37:44
Speaker 1: much the stadium was shaking. And let's be honest, this
1:37:48
Speaker 1: was a rock fight. Like a lot of NFL games
1:37:51
Speaker 1: back in the seventies were right.
1:37:53
Speaker 2: Steeler game.
1:37:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was a rock fight, no shootout. It was
1:37:56
Speaker 1: a defensive struggle. It was ugly, it was hard to
1:37:59
Speaker 1: steel leads six to nothing late in this game, all
1:38:03
Speaker 1: on field goals. That's it. And the Raiders have this
1:38:06
Speaker 1: backup quarterback that comes in. He's not the starter, but
1:38:10
Speaker 1: Kenny Stabler comes in late in the game and he
1:38:14
Speaker 1: leads the Raiders to an immediate touchdown and it's seven
1:38:17
Speaker 1: to six. So now there's less than a minute. Steelers
1:38:20
Speaker 1: have the ball, and of course everyone in that stadium
1:38:24
Speaker 1: assumes they know what's coming next. This game is over.
1:38:27
Speaker 1: They're going to lose like they had before. Well, Rooney's
1:38:30
Speaker 1: in the stands, and it is interesting to see because
1:38:33
Speaker 1: some people are argue and we're going to get into
1:38:35
Speaker 1: this about what replay would have said here. So Rooney's
1:38:38
Speaker 1: in the stands, he's watching this and he's already bracing
1:38:41
Speaker 1: for it because he's seen it before over and over again.
1:38:43
Speaker 1: This is what the Steelers do. They get close, you
1:38:46
Speaker 1: think they're going to get there, and then they lose.
1:38:49
Speaker 1: So now it's fourth in the stands, right, Dan Roney
1:38:51
Speaker 1: in the stands, it's fourth down.
1:38:53
Speaker 2: It's fourth and ten because Art Senior had got up,
1:38:57
Speaker 2: left the breath box and is in the elevator heading
1:38:59
Speaker 2: down the Lae lock room, getting ready to give a
1:39:01
Speaker 2: consolation speech to the players.
1:39:03
Speaker 1: Yes, that's important. Old man Rooney never sees the play,
1:39:07
Speaker 1: so it never sees it live. Obviously, he ends up
1:39:09
Speaker 1: seeing it later. So Dan Ronie's in the stands. It's
1:39:11
Speaker 1: fourth and ten twenty two seconds, so I'm sure people
1:39:15
Speaker 1: have seen the NFL films. Bradshaw takes the snap, he
1:39:18
Speaker 1: rolls right, he escapes pressure, and he throws it towards
1:39:23
Speaker 1: Frenchcheet Fuqua, and then there's a collision with Jack Tatum.
1:39:27
Speaker 2: I believe, Yeah, Tatum.
1:39:29
Speaker 1: Is that there?
1:39:30
Speaker 2: It's Tatum, famous and infamous and paralyzing. Yeah, insly, So
1:39:36
Speaker 2: this was.
1:39:37
Speaker 1: A violent collision, all right, We're talking Tatum and Fuqua,
1:39:42
Speaker 1: and it's immediate and Rooney claims he can hear it.
1:39:45
Speaker 1: He doesn't fully see it, but he feels like he
1:39:46
Speaker 1: can hear the collision, and he assumes that's it, game over,
1:39:51
Speaker 1: and he doesn't realize that the ball pops in the
1:39:54
Speaker 1: air and something impossible happens. Frank O harrisons up with
1:39:58
Speaker 1: the ball, and we all can visualize that moment where
1:40:01
Speaker 1: he gets it off of his shoe strings, right off
1:40:04
Speaker 1: of the of the cleats there, right before it hits
1:40:06
Speaker 1: the ground, and he's just running down the sideline. He
1:40:09
Speaker 1: stiff arms a guy, he stays in bounds, and it's
1:40:13
Speaker 1: a touchdown. Well, the officials are trying to figure out
1:40:15
Speaker 1: what the hell's going on, So so then there's confusion everywhere.
1:40:23
Speaker 1: Nobody celebrates right away because nobody's quite sure is this
1:40:26
Speaker 1: going to be good or not?
1:40:28
Speaker 2: So Rooney because the question is whether Fuke what touched
1:40:31
Speaker 2: the ball first, or Tatum touched the ball first, because
1:40:34
Speaker 2: and there's a rule if an offensive player touches the
1:40:37
Speaker 2: ball first, another player can't catch it, which.
1:40:39
Speaker 1: By the way, I didn't fully know that rule. That
1:40:42
Speaker 1: rule ends up getting changed later. I didn't know that
1:40:44
Speaker 1: just but that was and and Rooney says, everybody seems
1:40:48
Speaker 1: to know the rule, and so they're like, well, who
1:40:50
Speaker 1: touched it first? And all of this, so Rooney runs
1:40:52
Speaker 1: to the press box. He's in the press box, reporters
1:40:55
Speaker 1: are yelling, trying to figure out what the hell's going on.
1:40:58
Speaker 1: They're all trying to reconstruct the play. This is nineteen
1:41:01
Speaker 1: seventy two. So you know what, Three Rivers Stadium does
1:41:03
Speaker 1: not have ja a jumbo trout. Okay, oh, there's no
1:41:08
Speaker 1: replay in the stands, no jumbo tron, clarity, no certainty.
1:41:14
Speaker 1: So it comes down did Jactatum touch the ball? It's
1:41:17
Speaker 1: a touchdown. If Frenchy Fuqua touches it first, the play
1:41:21
Speaker 1: is dead, game over, so nobody knows. Then this is amazing.
1:41:24
Speaker 1: The referee leaves the field, walks to a phone in
1:41:29
Speaker 1: the baseball dugout. Remember Three Rivers both football and baseball,
1:41:33
Speaker 1: so he's in the baseball dugout and he calls the
1:41:35
Speaker 1: league office. Art McNally is on the phone and McNally
1:41:42
Speaker 1: just tells the referee, you have to call what you
1:41:44
Speaker 1: saw with your men. Yea. By the way, my favorite
1:41:47
Speaker 1: part of this is that when the phone first rings,
1:41:50
Speaker 1: it's Rooney that answers, and they're looking for you, and
1:41:52
Speaker 1: he's like, where's where's the ref And he's yelling around
1:41:56
Speaker 1: to hand the phone off, and he says, you have
1:41:58
Speaker 1: to call what you saw. So this is an it's
1:42:02
Speaker 1: not quite instant replay, but it's sort of like they
1:42:06
Speaker 1: they just conferred with the League office. And like, well,
1:42:11
Speaker 1: what's the rule? Did any of you see French she
1:42:13
Speaker 1: touch it? Or did you see Tatum touch it?
1:42:15
Speaker 2: Right? It was, but it was reviewed right, so the
1:42:18
Speaker 2: officials huddle.
1:42:21
Speaker 1: And then, you know, you wait for what every fan
1:42:25
Speaker 1: I look. I say this as somebody who was in
1:42:28
Speaker 1: the stadium when Doug Flutie completed his famous Hail Mary,
1:42:33
Speaker 1: and for me, the only thing I could see to
1:42:34
Speaker 1: confirm it was when the officials do this, Well, that's
1:42:38
Speaker 1: exactly what happens in three rivers. They put the arms up,
1:42:43
Speaker 1: it's a touchdown, and the stadium goes crazy. Reporters are
1:42:47
Speaker 1: throwing papers, players are mobbing Franco, and it's just sort
1:42:53
Speaker 1: of surreal. Nobody's quite sure it's it's real. Bradshaw, he
1:42:56
Speaker 1: says he didn't see it. He's on the ground, Frank go,
1:43:01
Speaker 1: he just followed the ball. My favorite part is that
1:43:04
Speaker 1: Frenchifukua will never say what happened with the takes it
1:43:10
Speaker 1: to the grave, won't say for sure whether he touched
1:43:13
Speaker 1: it or Tatum touched it. But I'll be honest, do
1:43:15
Speaker 1: you think that he would remember even if it was right?
1:43:18
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm sure a play like that happens.
1:43:20
Speaker 2: Bang, bang, I know it happened, but like to you,
1:43:23
Speaker 2: but how could you know? I mean, probably concussed on
1:43:27
Speaker 2: the play. You know, you got no idea, no one
1:43:29
Speaker 2: for sure. So my favorite thing is that over the
1:43:32
Speaker 2: ball called a bar called the Interlude, or on Court
1:43:36
Speaker 2: Street in Pittsburgh, a man who uh Catholic school educated,
1:43:45
Speaker 2: stands up on a chair and declares, from this day
1:43:48
Speaker 2: on today will forever be known as the Feast of
1:43:51
Speaker 2: the Immaculate Reception.
1:43:55
Speaker 1: So that's where the name comes from. It's a bar,
1:43:58
Speaker 1: of course, and then it's over. Yeah.
1:44:02
Speaker 2: He's like, hey, that pretty good. He got a good response,
1:44:04
Speaker 2: all right.
1:44:05
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:44:05
Speaker 2: He calls over to the TV station where the broadcaster
1:44:08
Speaker 2: Myron Cope, who does the uh he's the Steelers play
1:44:11
Speaker 2: by playouts. We'll get into him in a moment. He's
1:44:14
Speaker 2: getting ready to do a sportscast, so not as the
1:44:17
Speaker 2: radio voice of the Steelers, but he's also a local sportscaster.
1:44:20
Speaker 2: So the guy calls over and says, hey, we're calling
1:44:23
Speaker 2: it the Macular Reception. So he goes on there, repeats
1:44:26
Speaker 2: the name, and it becomes a part of NFL. Laura,
1:44:28
Speaker 2: this is a good place to talk about Myron Cope
1:44:32
Speaker 2: while we brought him up born Myron Koppelman, a guy
1:44:36
Speaker 2: who sounds like a mix of Howard Cosell and Chris
1:44:39
Speaker 2: mad Dog Russo with those two guys, his signature phrase
1:44:44
Speaker 2: was YOI, which I think is perfect because it's kind
1:44:47
Speaker 2: of like a mix of Pittsburgh Why right, yeah, why
1:44:53
Speaker 2: all that stuff? You know, particularly good play would be
1:44:56
Speaker 2: a double YoY. There was a rare triple YOI. He said,
1:45:01
Speaker 2: it's just something that just came out, and then he
1:45:03
Speaker 2: can never escape. It'd be rocking down the street and
1:45:05
Speaker 2: people yoh. It. The creator of the Terrible Towel, so
1:45:09
Speaker 2: he was asked to come up with something for a
1:45:11
Speaker 2: playoff game in the mid seventies and he decides, hey,
1:45:15
Speaker 2: let's do this. The Terrible Towel and the yellow towels
1:45:19
Speaker 2: that Stealers fans wave and are you know, became ubiquitous
1:45:22
Speaker 2: and became associated with them. That was That was hers
1:45:25
Speaker 2: bird child. So you can't tell the Stealer the story
1:45:28
Speaker 2: of the Steelers no without talking about Myron Cope. I'm
1:45:31
Speaker 2: glad a broadcaster is such an essential part of this story.
1:45:35
Speaker 1: How about broad I mean, we've said Bill Nunn, the
1:45:37
Speaker 1: sports writer, Myron Cope, the broadcaster. I mean, it just
1:45:40
Speaker 1: is proof that you can't you know, this.
1:45:42
Speaker 2: Is making the Steelers my favorite dynasty. Right yeah, that
1:45:46
Speaker 2: sports writers and broadcasters played in their story elevates them
1:45:50
Speaker 2: the number one in my list.
1:45:51
Speaker 1: We you know, we journalists matter. Still damn it, you know,
1:45:55
Speaker 1: gosh darn it. What to go back to sort of
1:46:00
Speaker 1: wrap up the immaculate reception John Madden and Al Davis
1:46:05
Speaker 1: to the you know, for years complained al Davis of course,
1:46:09
Speaker 1: thought it was rigged. Thought it was sort of the
1:46:12
Speaker 1: league deciding there was no way they were going to
1:46:14
Speaker 1: let the Raiders win. You know, there's nothing like actually
1:46:16
Speaker 1: knowing that a phone call took place between the refs
1:46:19
Speaker 1: and the league office to convince al Davis that the
1:46:23
Speaker 1: league was conspiring against him. Right, al Davis, I think,
1:46:26
Speaker 1: I think when he took his last breath, assumed the
1:46:29
Speaker 1: NFL was behind it. You know, but one last lawsuit
1:46:34
Speaker 1: before you I mean, in fairness to al Davis and Madden, right,
1:46:38
Speaker 1: you know, but for the Steelers, the Raiders are the
1:46:42
Speaker 1: team of the seventies, right. The Raiders might be the first,
1:46:46
Speaker 1: the next great, right, you know, they get to the
1:46:49
Speaker 1: Super Bowl second. Uh, you know, they're the second AFL
1:46:52
Speaker 1: representative in the Super Bowl. They you know, and it
1:46:57
Speaker 1: is you know, John Madden only had his one Super
1:47:00
Speaker 1: Bowl in part because he had to play the Pittsburgh Steelers.
1:47:03
Speaker 2: But it is amazing that he parlayed that won and
1:47:05
Speaker 2: there's something much more lucrative. And then Chuck Knowles four. Right,
1:47:10
Speaker 2: So one last thing on the on the Macular Reception game. Again,
1:47:14
Speaker 2: I was stunned to find out that it really didn't effectively.
1:47:19
Speaker 2: I mean maybe spiritually, but I thought that was the
1:47:22
Speaker 2: play that literally launched a dynasty, that they won the
1:47:25
Speaker 2: game and that they were on the way that ru
1:47:26
Speaker 2: I did too.
1:47:27
Speaker 1: You just assumed, but yeah, you're right, it doesn't right.
1:47:30
Speaker 2: Two years Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't even the AFC
1:47:34
Speaker 2: Championship games. So I think it has to go high,
1:47:37
Speaker 2: if not at the top. I think number one in
1:47:40
Speaker 2: terms of games whose importance is a little bit overstated.
1:47:43
Speaker 2: It has to be the Miracle on Ice because Team
1:47:46
Speaker 2: USA did not win the gold medal when they beat
1:47:49
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union.
1:47:50
Speaker 1: So it's the same the same thing as the Immaculate Reception.
1:47:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, although at least they went on the next game
1:47:55
Speaker 2: to win the gold medal, like they didn't. At least
1:47:57
Speaker 2: they didn't lose the next game like the steel did.
1:48:00
Speaker 2: In this I would say the ray Allen shot game
1:48:03
Speaker 2: six of the of the twenty thirteen NBA Finals Heat
1:48:07
Speaker 2: versus Spurs. Ray On hits the last second three, So
1:48:10
Speaker 2: not only did it not win the series, it didn't
1:48:12
Speaker 2: even win the game. It just sent the game to
1:48:14
Speaker 2: overtime where the Heat then win. But then they had
1:48:15
Speaker 2: to win Game seven. So we've put a lot of
1:48:18
Speaker 2: importance I consider a very historic shot in NBA history
1:48:21
Speaker 2: and certainly in the path of Lebron James, but it
1:48:25
Speaker 2: didn't in and of itself decide anything. Another one is
1:48:28
Speaker 2: the Kobe shack Alley oop when Kobe in Game seven
1:48:32
Speaker 2: to complete the comeback, But it was really more of
1:48:34
Speaker 2: an exclamation mark like they were gonna win the game,
1:48:37
Speaker 2: regardless of not they they already had the lead, they
1:48:39
Speaker 2: were in position to win the game. That just kind
1:48:41
Speaker 2: of you drove the point home. But it's seen as
1:48:45
Speaker 2: the moment when the Lakers won and went on to
1:48:48
Speaker 2: the NBA Finals and completed the comeback. But it was
1:48:50
Speaker 2: really icing on the kick.
1:48:51
Speaker 1: You know the fact that it wasn't the AFC Championship
1:48:53
Speaker 1: game may actually explain why the Steelers doesn't don't win
1:48:57
Speaker 1: the next game, because you know, first of all, it's
1:49:01
Speaker 1: the most talked about play in the history of the NFL,
1:49:04
Speaker 1: and so in that week it's the most talked about play.
1:49:07
Speaker 1: There is a hang Remember this is the first ever
1:49:09
Speaker 1: playoff game at three Rivers and the fans are just overjoyed.
1:49:14
Speaker 1: So the classic hangover effect. So what happens the next game?
1:49:19
Speaker 1: The Steelers play the Miami Dolphins. But in a weird
1:49:23
Speaker 1: twist because the NFL, by nineteen seventy five they change it.
1:49:27
Speaker 1: But before nineteen seventy five, the NFL decided the home
1:49:31
Speaker 1: playoff stadiums in advance, meaning they would say, okay, this year,
1:49:36
Speaker 1: the whoever went, you know, the AFC Central will be
1:49:42
Speaker 1: the host. You know, that playoff team will be the
1:49:46
Speaker 1: host playoff team. Like whatever, There was this order and
1:49:49
Speaker 1: they just rotated by divisions. So here you have the
1:49:52
Speaker 1: undefeated Miami Dolphins at this point, they're sixteen to zero
1:49:58
Speaker 1: coming in on December thirty first, nineteen seventy two to
1:50:03
Speaker 1: three Rivers Stadium. So the Steelers go from the immaculate
1:50:07
Speaker 1: reception in December twenty third, Well, guess what happens to
1:50:13
Speaker 1: the Dolphins. You think, Oh, no, the Dolphins have to
1:50:16
Speaker 1: go play a road game Christmas Eve in Pittsburgh. It
1:50:20
Speaker 1: is seventy one degrees at kickoff. Who was watching over
1:50:25
Speaker 1: with if you were wondering if God thought they had
1:50:28
Speaker 1: a rooting interest in this game for the Steelers Dolphins.
1:50:32
Speaker 1: They created Miami like weather on December thirty first, in
1:50:36
Speaker 1: three rivers at Pittsburgh. So in some ways, the Steelers
1:50:40
Speaker 1: were like, if we want to believe in these higher powers,
1:50:43
Speaker 1: it's sort of like the higher powers said, all right,
1:50:45
Speaker 1: we're going to give you your win, but let me
1:50:47
Speaker 1: tell you what's going to happen in eight days, and
1:50:49
Speaker 1: we're going to, you know, get make sure the weather
1:50:52
Speaker 1: is for Miami and not to sort of add, you know,
1:50:58
Speaker 1: misery to this. So this Steelers going to lose this
1:51:01
Speaker 1: game to the Dolphins. Hours later, Roberto Clemente dies in
1:51:07
Speaker 1: a plane crash, the iconic Pittsburgh Pirate. And I've been
1:51:11
Speaker 1: stewing on this a while. JA think about the eight
1:51:14
Speaker 1: days of Pittsburgh sports fandom. December twenty third is the
1:51:19
Speaker 1: immaculate Reception, And eight days later the most iconic player
1:51:26
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh Pirate franchise history dies tragically in a plane crash.
1:51:32
Speaker 2: So we talked earlier, back to back days when Chuck Nolan,
1:51:35
Speaker 2: Me and Joe Green arrived in Pittsburgh, But you didn't
1:51:38
Speaker 2: know at the time how significant those were, right, So yes,
1:51:42
Speaker 2: those are majorly consequential events, but at the time you
1:51:47
Speaker 2: have no way of knowing. At those moments, you knew, right,
1:51:51
Speaker 2: you knew that was one of the most incredible players
1:51:53
Speaker 2: in Nfels and then you knew the tragedy. I'm sure
1:51:55
Speaker 2: you could feel the loss instantly, you know, with the
1:51:59
Speaker 2: death Roberto Clemente. So just the impact that the finality,
1:52:05
Speaker 2: the drama, the swings, the emotional range for a city
1:52:10
Speaker 2: to go through, and to have a sense for what
1:52:14
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh is like after losing. I covered the AFC Championship
1:52:18
Speaker 2: game that led to must have been two thousand or
1:52:21
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, because that led to Brady's for
1:52:24
Speaker 2: Super Bowl. So he actually gets hurt in that game
1:52:27
Speaker 2: and Drew Bledsoe has to come back in and secure
1:52:30
Speaker 2: the FC Championship victory for the Patriots. But I remember
1:52:35
Speaker 2: being in Pittsburgh all weekend and the whole city was
1:52:37
Speaker 2: just so hyped up. There were Pittsburgh's going to the
1:52:39
Speaker 2: super Bowl. They're all ready to get back to the
1:52:41
Speaker 2: super Bowl. And then they lost and you could just
1:52:44
Speaker 2: went out to Primani's, you know, to get one of
1:52:47
Speaker 2: the famous sandwiches after the game. Just the whole city
1:52:50
Speaker 2: felt like the streets were deserted. And you know, the Steelers,
1:52:55
Speaker 2: and we get in this later, just how essential they
1:52:57
Speaker 2: became to that town, and you could so for them
1:53:01
Speaker 2: to lose, and them for to lose one of the
1:53:03
Speaker 2: iconic figures, you know, man for whom the bridge is
1:53:06
Speaker 2: named after. Now in Pittsburgh, I just I have the
1:53:11
Speaker 2: slightest bit not having been from Pittsburgh, spent a lot
1:53:15
Speaker 2: of time in Pittsburgh, but having spent just enough time
1:53:17
Speaker 2: just seeing how this city reacts to a big loss,
1:53:20
Speaker 2: to have a sense for what that loss was like
1:53:24
Speaker 2: for them.
1:53:25
Speaker 1: And look, you know, it's easy to say this looking backwards,
1:53:28
Speaker 1: but in some ways maybe the entire city needed a
1:53:34
Speaker 1: year to mourn Clemente, right, because the seventy three season
1:53:37
Speaker 1: is somewhat of a lost season, right, and so even
1:53:41
Speaker 1: you know, it's clear the immaculate reception puts the Steelers
1:53:45
Speaker 1: on the NFL math, and I think it's hard to
1:53:49
Speaker 1: you can't separate it out from the start of the dynasty,
1:53:53
Speaker 1: but it does take them into that seventy four season,
1:53:57
Speaker 1: which we've already been hitting at a little bit with
1:53:59
Speaker 1: the quarterback verse seats of seventy four.
1:54:01
Speaker 2: But before we get to it, though, I do want
1:54:03
Speaker 2: to get to the formation of the Steel Curtain. You know,
1:54:08
Speaker 2: it's really it's so it starts to be really really
1:54:10
Speaker 2: comes together by by seventy one, and you know, you
1:54:16
Speaker 2: you the first all black starting line right in in
1:54:23
Speaker 2: defensive line in in NFL history, and it really becomes dominant,
1:54:30
Speaker 2: right They they like they hold O. J. Simpson to
1:54:37
Speaker 2: forty nine yards Russia, you know when I think it's
1:54:40
Speaker 2: a year removed from the two thousand yard Russian season,
1:54:43
Speaker 2: right they they you know, the identity really comes together
1:54:48
Speaker 2: from this. They have the uh So, reading about the
1:54:56
Speaker 2: Steel Curtain, it also reminded me that there's a great
1:54:58
Speaker 2: line from from Dwight. So the Steve Curtain is White White,
1:55:03
Speaker 2: Ernie Holmes, Elsie Greenwood, b and Joe green White says
1:55:07
Speaker 2: it was not so much what we did, it was
1:55:09
Speaker 2: the way we did it. We kicked their asses very thoroughly,
1:55:12
Speaker 2: not just thoroughly, very thoroughly.
1:55:14
Speaker 1: Right.
1:55:14
Speaker 2: Another thing about it, uh, this was the first line
1:55:18
Speaker 2: to use stunts where the players would go around, you know,
1:55:22
Speaker 2: the the end would go around the defensive lineman. They'd
1:55:24
Speaker 2: kind of switch places catch the you get mismatches on
1:55:28
Speaker 2: the interior the offensive line.
1:55:29
Speaker 1: Right.
1:55:30
Speaker 2: Uh. George Perlis, who was a defensive cooridator, later went
1:55:34
Speaker 2: on to be the head coach at Michigan State. He
1:55:37
Speaker 2: called it stunt for three and that was the name
1:55:40
Speaker 2: of the play, and stunt became the name throughout the
1:55:43
Speaker 2: league for when you know, the end and the tackle
1:55:46
Speaker 2: would would kind of invert and and go around each
1:55:49
Speaker 2: other to rush the quarterbacks.
1:55:51
Speaker 1: So Parsons be without the stunts.
1:55:54
Speaker 2: Dominant, and they would just shut people down just to
1:55:59
Speaker 2: defense of fours. So this is all coming together. This
1:56:05
Speaker 2: is part of the thing that is emerging as the
1:56:07
Speaker 2: Steelers are becoming dominant in the nineteen seventies.
1:56:10
Speaker 1: In the first Super Bowl, they end up in New Orleans,
1:56:15
Speaker 1: and it's in some ways their first Super Bowl victory
1:56:18
Speaker 1: feels like it was a defensive victory sixteen to six. Right,
1:56:24
Speaker 1: This wasn't you know you talk about your first memory
1:56:27
Speaker 1: of the Steelers, it's the high flying Linn Swan right
1:56:31
Speaker 1: in the High Fly thirty five to thirty one. The
1:56:34
Speaker 1: first Super Bowl is the Steel Curtain super Bowl. I mean,
1:56:38
Speaker 1: I think that's that's pretty fair. It was. It was
1:56:40
Speaker 1: just about pound in the football and pounding on deep.
1:56:44
Speaker 2: They held the Minnesota Vikings to seventeen rushing yards in
1:56:47
Speaker 2: twenty one attempts, not even a yard per Darry good Grief.
1:56:53
Speaker 2: So my favorite little detail on that is that so
1:56:57
Speaker 2: Art Rooney Senior liked to watch the games in the
1:56:59
Speaker 2: press box. He didn't like to be in the owner's boxes.
1:57:02
Speaker 2: More of a man of the people, even the media people.
1:57:05
Speaker 2: So he sits next to that game, next to Jim
1:57:08
Speaker 2: Murray of Los Angeles Times, who you know, within a
1:57:11
Speaker 2: few years would be the person that I grew up
1:57:13
Speaker 2: reading and wanted to emulate. And then a couple of
1:57:17
Speaker 2: decades after that, I got the opportunity to work alongside
1:57:20
Speaker 2: when I got to the LA Times in nineteen ninety seven.
1:57:23
Speaker 2: So that's something that might not mean a lot too.
1:57:26
Speaker 2: Mostly the audience started, you're gonna have to indulge me
1:57:28
Speaker 2: on this, But I found it very cool that arn't
1:57:31
Speaker 2: really watched their first Super Bowl Championship sitting in the
1:57:34
Speaker 2: press box next to Jim.
1:57:35
Speaker 1: Murky, you know. And that's the thing about you know,
1:57:38
Speaker 1: it's funny. We the picture of all owners today is
1:57:41
Speaker 1: of rich guys looking for trophies. And there's a lot
1:57:45
Speaker 1: of owners that are rich guys looking for trophies. But
1:57:48
Speaker 1: there are still a small handful of teams that are
1:57:53
Speaker 1: owned essentially by the original family or a part of
1:57:56
Speaker 1: the original family. Right, the Steelers are one the giants,
1:58:01
Speaker 1: at least partially so. Right, the Maras are still there.
1:58:05
Speaker 1: And then of course you have the Hallis family with
1:58:08
Speaker 1: the Bears, and then you have Jesus Community with the
1:58:11
Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers. And then on the A yeah AFL side,
1:58:13
Speaker 1: you have the Hunts and the Chiefs. And I'm thinking
1:58:19
Speaker 1: around here, I think that's it, right where the wealth
1:58:23
Speaker 1: is the team, right right where the team itself and
1:58:27
Speaker 1: especially with I mean especially with Art Rooney. I mean
1:58:33
Speaker 1: this is something, like I said, I will fully confess
1:58:36
Speaker 1: did not realize, you know, you just I just assumed.
1:58:39
Speaker 1: I wonder what he made his money in, and you realize, oh,
1:58:41
Speaker 1: he never really did. He was just sort of a sport.
1:58:45
Speaker 1: He was basically and we all know those it was
1:58:48
Speaker 1: sort of the sports guy promoter. I'm sure some people,
1:58:51
Speaker 1: some businessmen of the Pittsburgh era probably didn't. We're dismissive
1:58:54
Speaker 1: of of Oh he's that boxing promoter, or he's that
1:58:58
Speaker 1: wrestling promoter, or he's that guy over here. And of
1:59:02
Speaker 1: course he was probably building a more durable business than
1:59:04
Speaker 1: anything US Steel could come up with.
1:59:06
Speaker 2: And as we talked about in earlier segment, the business
1:59:09
Speaker 2: model of the NFL, the revenue sharing from the National
1:59:11
Speaker 2: TV money allows for that. Right in baseball, Frank McCourt
1:59:15
Speaker 2: goes into bankruptcy because he couldn't afford the payroll even
1:59:19
Speaker 2: for the Los Angeles Dodgers, because he didn't have enough
1:59:22
Speaker 2: outside money. But the Rooney is with nowhere near the
1:59:26
Speaker 2: type of outside money that some of these private equity
1:59:29
Speaker 2: or tech guys coming into sports now have, are able
1:59:31
Speaker 2: to compete with everyone thanks to the revenue sharing, the
1:59:34
Speaker 2: very socialist model of the NFL. One last note on
1:59:38
Speaker 2: the steel curtains, So researching them reminded me of the
1:59:44
Speaker 2: banners that they used to have. So you mentioned three
1:59:46
Speaker 2: were stadium earlier, and we talked about the Dodgers three
1:59:49
Speaker 2: Rover Stadium was one of that era of the generic
1:59:52
Speaker 2: round cookie cutter stadium that came about in the sixties
1:59:56
Speaker 2: and the seventies that were multipurpose. But one of the
1:59:59
Speaker 2: benefits of them was because you had this stretch where
2:00:02
Speaker 2: the outfield walls were for baseball fans could come and
2:00:06
Speaker 2: hang banners over these all these homemade banners that were
2:00:10
Speaker 2: you know, they could just paint whatever on them and
2:00:13
Speaker 2: hang them over. And in Pittsburgh in particular, they had
2:00:16
Speaker 2: this really well done line of the steel curtain and
2:00:20
Speaker 2: it hand painted very lifelike representations of the four members
2:00:25
Speaker 2: of the defensive line, and I just remembered it in
2:00:30
Speaker 2: my head and I started googling the scene if I
2:00:32
Speaker 2: could find anything about it. So it turns out the
2:00:36
Speaker 2: guy they had it kept it after all this time,
2:00:38
Speaker 2: and then in twenty eleven he auctioned it off and
2:00:41
Speaker 2: he got fifty seven thousand dollars, So good for him,
2:00:44
Speaker 2: and I'm thankful for them for kind of preserving my memories. Intact,
2:00:49
Speaker 2: there were pictures of it. I'm like, yes, that's exactly
2:00:51
Speaker 2: what I remember, these hand painted banners that they used
2:00:54
Speaker 2: to bring to Three River Stadium of the steel curtain
2:00:57
Speaker 2: among other things. That was kind of cool. The second
2:00:58
Speaker 2: that's been lost in the modern netwel it is.
2:01:00
Speaker 1: Because I think now they don't want to let banners in,
2:01:03
Speaker 1: and there's a firehouse political messaging and you know all
2:01:07
Speaker 1: sort right, nobody everybody's fearful of, you know, and there
2:01:11
Speaker 1: was something about Monday. It was for me the memory
2:01:14
Speaker 1: of those homemade signs or Monday Night football.
2:01:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, because a lot of them would be about
2:01:18
Speaker 2: Monday Night football or coach.
2:01:19
Speaker 1: Right, and they were all just trying to get on TV.
2:01:21
Speaker 1: You know, there was that in John three.
2:01:23
Speaker 2: Six, remember that they would have they would they would
2:01:27
Speaker 2: use the letters CBS weren't better than MNF for ABC, right,
2:01:32
Speaker 2: but you know they would spell out something and they
2:01:35
Speaker 2: would use the call letters of the by the way
2:01:39
Speaker 2: of whatever network the game was on.
2:01:41
Speaker 1: Hey, what I love about this little memory that we're
2:01:44
Speaker 1: sharing here is this is social media before social media.
2:01:48
Speaker 2: Right.
2:01:48
Speaker 1: I always joke that if I told you in nineteen
2:01:51
Speaker 1: ninety that the single most important thing on a phone
2:01:54
Speaker 1: that you would carry with you is the camera, right, Like,
2:01:58
Speaker 1: who would have bet on that in nineteen nine? And
2:02:00
Speaker 1: yet when you see how much people cared about getting
2:02:03
Speaker 1: on television or finding ways to get it. It turned
2:02:06
Speaker 1: out boy Apple, Steve Jobs new he understood it better
2:02:10
Speaker 1: than everybody else. We're narcissists and we want to be
2:02:13
Speaker 1: on TV. And so you know now of course everybody's
2:02:17
Speaker 1: got a phone.
2:02:18
Speaker 2: That was your chance to get your message on right,
2:02:19
Speaker 2: you can think, let's do over? How can I what
2:02:21
Speaker 2: has called ABC another Bradshaw completion? Okay, you know, and
2:02:27
Speaker 2: the ABC cameras would be more than happy to show it.
2:02:29
Speaker 2: You know, you're promoting their product. And if you said something.
2:02:32
Speaker 1: About Don Meredith or Howard coach Sell, you know, and
2:02:35
Speaker 1: had some fun with it, you know, especially if Danny
2:02:38
Speaker 1: had been drinking. You never see you know, the lights,
2:02:40
Speaker 1: you know, turn out the lights, all that stuff. One more,
2:02:45
Speaker 1: we were starting to dig into the Super bowls here, uh,
2:02:49
Speaker 1: my favorite fun factor of the first Super Bowl, right,
2:02:51
Speaker 1: we're talking about Chuck Nole and he's such a serious
2:02:54
Speaker 1: guy and all this stuff. Well the Games of New
2:02:57
Speaker 1: Orleans and you know, wasn't Minnesota's first Super Bowl. They
2:03:01
Speaker 1: haven't won one yet, but they still have one one yet,
2:03:04
Speaker 1: but they had been there, done that. This was all
2:03:08
Speaker 1: new for Pittsburgh, uh and Bourbon Street. So you think,
2:03:12
Speaker 1: oh boy, what are they going to do? Chuck Nole
2:03:15
Speaker 1: gives the team no curfew. New Orleans Bourbon Street. So
2:03:20
Speaker 1: what do you think they did? They went out at
2:03:24
Speaker 1: Joe Green, Elsie Greenwood, Dwight White, Ernie Holmes. They eat shrimp,
2:03:28
Speaker 1: they drink a lot of Heineken. The restaurant ran out.
2:03:33
Speaker 1: That's okay. Dwight White gets so sick he missed an
2:03:37
Speaker 1: entire week of practice. But he played in the super
2:03:39
Speaker 1: Bowl anyway. So it wasn't a pretty game, but it
2:03:43
Speaker 1: was Steelers football and they win the game. But the
2:03:47
Speaker 1: fact that they were and we could talk about, you know,
2:03:50
Speaker 1: the dark side of the seventies and what it took
2:03:52
Speaker 1: to get players on the field play.
2:03:55
Speaker 2: The fact that the street is something I missed. I
2:03:56
Speaker 2: was at the super Bowl in New Orleans in twenty
2:03:58
Speaker 2: twenty five. That was my first than the Super Bowl.
2:04:00
Speaker 2: And yeah, you didn't hear any stories about any players
2:04:04
Speaker 2: these days.
2:04:05
Speaker 1: Right, nobody would ever do that, Right, no coach would
2:04:08
Speaker 1: ever do that. Yeah it is, but one hundred and
2:04:14
Speaker 1: twenty thousand people show up in the freezing cold the
2:04:17
Speaker 1: day after the Super Bowl for that parade. I mean
2:04:20
Speaker 1: it is Look, they had won championships with their baseball team,
2:04:24
Speaker 1: and in fact, you know, Bill Mazerowski nineteen sixty probably
2:04:27
Speaker 1: is iconic of a World Series win. Is any victory
2:04:30
Speaker 1: that any franchises had in a World Series for Masarowski.
2:04:36
Speaker 1: But this one, you know, when you let's just say,
2:04:40
Speaker 1: I've been I've been brainwashed by my Dan Rooney, by
2:04:43
Speaker 1: this d by Dan Rooney on this one, and he's
2:04:46
Speaker 1: not wrong, right, Football in some ways really was the
2:04:51
Speaker 1: heart and you know Western Pennsylvania and Central Ohio, right,
2:04:55
Speaker 1: that was football. You know, football in some ways was
2:05:00
Speaker 1: you know, was really born in that part of the country.
2:05:03
Speaker 1: So to bring the championship to Pittsburgh and to have
2:05:06
Speaker 1: these fan base to be this excited about it, in
2:05:08
Speaker 1: some ways, it's football coming full circle.
2:05:10
Speaker 2: Right.
2:05:10
Speaker 1: The Canton Bulldogs aren't an NFL franchise, but maybe this
2:05:13
Speaker 1: was as close as you could get to Canton winning
2:05:16
Speaker 1: a Super Bowl.
2:05:17
Speaker 2: And then they go back to back, they win Super
2:05:19
Speaker 2: Bowl ten against Dallas. Lynn Swan, the MVP for catches
2:05:23
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty four yards Bradshaw concussed when he's
2:05:27
Speaker 2: hit on the kind of the game clinching touchdown pass,
2:05:30
Speaker 2: a seventy yard TD pass that Bradshaw through calling an audible,
2:05:34
Speaker 2: but he survives and instead of going to Disney and
2:05:37
Speaker 2: Bradshaw goes around the country singing country songs.
2:05:41
Speaker 1: He gets when Bradshaw starts to become his own version
2:05:44
Speaker 1: of a celebrity, yeah, you know, with the blonde hair,
2:05:48
Speaker 1: the k.
2:05:50
Speaker 2: He has a small part in the movie Hooper with
2:05:52
Speaker 2: Burt Reynolds. He gets in a bar ride with Burt Reynolds.
2:05:55
Speaker 1: Well, he ends up doing a few Burt Reynolds movies
2:05:57
Speaker 1: after that because Hooper was the first one. I have
2:05:59
Speaker 1: to tell you. I loved him in Canniball Run, one
2:06:02
Speaker 1: of the dumber movies that there is. But it's it's
2:06:06
Speaker 1: he look Bradshaw in some ways. He's been playing the
2:06:10
Speaker 1: character of Terry Bradshaw for fifty years now, and he's
2:06:13
Speaker 1: pretty good at it.
2:06:14
Speaker 2: At this point, he certainly goes on to be, you know,
2:06:17
Speaker 2: the most famous and enduring, the one of the Steelers
2:06:20
Speaker 2: who's still a presence in our lives all these years later.
2:06:25
Speaker 2: But that.
2:06:27
Speaker 1: The Second Super Bowl is the birth of the of
2:06:32
Speaker 1: this Cowboys Steelers rivalry. You know, it's interesting with Cowboys rivals.
2:06:37
Speaker 1: There's a lot of teams that claim rivalries with the Cowboys,
2:06:40
Speaker 1: don't they you know where they where? They feel like
2:06:46
Speaker 1: the Cowboys are their rival, and there is something about
2:06:49
Speaker 1: it feels like, if there's such thing as a super
2:06:51
Speaker 1: Bowl rivalry, the only super Bowl rivalry I think we've
2:06:55
Speaker 1: ever really had is Steelers Cowboys. Is that fair?
2:07:01
Speaker 2: Yeah? And it certainly felt like it back then, And again,
2:07:04
Speaker 2: that was the first Super Bowl that I watched, and
2:07:07
Speaker 2: then it just felt like whenever they would meet in
2:07:10
Speaker 2: the regular season, it felt like such a big deal
2:07:12
Speaker 2: because they probably played in the Super Bowl the year before,
2:07:15
Speaker 2: and there's a good chance that they were going to
2:07:16
Speaker 2: face each other again in the super Bowl. So yeah,
2:07:20
Speaker 2: there's nothing like Cowboys Steelers because it takes place. It's
2:07:24
Speaker 2: not a divisional rivalry. There's something about those divisional rivalries, right,
2:07:27
Speaker 2: but a super Bowl rivalry Cowboys versus Steelers.
2:07:30
Speaker 1: No, Look, it's probably the only equivalent to it in
2:07:33
Speaker 1: other sports is probably you got Dodgers Yankees with a
2:07:36
Speaker 1: World Series rivalry, and you've got like like Celtics right
2:07:39
Speaker 1: the Finals, right, which you know, the same thing. It
2:07:43
Speaker 1: made it made those regular season matchups only two a year.
2:07:46
Speaker 1: In the NBA, they always felt like previews you know
2:07:51
Speaker 1: that that that you were going to get something. Let's
2:07:53
Speaker 1: go back to your first super Bowl that you remember,
2:07:56
Speaker 1: because one could argue is that the if you have
2:08:00
Speaker 1: to pick one super Bowl Steelers team right of the
2:08:04
Speaker 1: four and you can throw in the other two. If
2:08:08
Speaker 1: they had to only they could only have one that
2:08:11
Speaker 1: they have to say is their best super Bowl team?
2:08:14
Speaker 1: Is it the seventy eight super Bowl team?
2:08:16
Speaker 2: I think so because it probably holds up the best
2:08:19
Speaker 2: in the modern era. So they were more pass oriented.
2:08:25
Speaker 2: So the rules had changed that they called it the
2:08:30
Speaker 2: because of the Steelers, the mel Blunt rule. They outlawed
2:08:34
Speaker 2: bump and run coverage. So in seventy eight, Swan and
2:08:39
Speaker 2: stalwarth two hundred and thirteen combined receptions for thirty three touchdowns.
2:08:44
Speaker 1: Wow, really, not until Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne did
2:08:50
Speaker 1: you have a pair like that? Right?
2:08:52
Speaker 2: Probably? Not right? So you're you're you know, these are
2:08:57
Speaker 2: the two teams buying become the team of the decade.
2:09:01
Speaker 1: Right, So well, the winner of the Super Bowl becomes
2:09:05
Speaker 1: the first NFL team to win three. Yeah, no matter
2:09:08
Speaker 1: what happens here. So it's a big it's a BFD
2:09:11
Speaker 1: for the NFL.
2:09:12
Speaker 2: So this is gonna be the last super Bowl played
2:09:14
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies. Right, They still have the nineteen
2:09:16
Speaker 2: seventy nine season to come, but that super Bowl is
2:09:18
Speaker 2: gonna be played in nineteen eighty. So this is a
2:09:21
Speaker 2: super Bowl in nineteen seventy nine, right, And yeah, so
2:09:24
Speaker 2: the two and remember this is really it's over the
2:09:29
Speaker 2: previous three or four years that the Super Bowl has
2:09:33
Speaker 2: become somewhat of the spectacle that it is now. Right,
2:09:37
Speaker 2: the super Bowl still had to establish itself. So we're
2:09:40
Speaker 2: only you know, we're still low numbers XI. Right, that
2:09:43
Speaker 2: is thirteen, and the Cowboys had just been dubbed America's team.
2:09:49
Speaker 2: I think the year before, or maybe it was this year.
2:09:53
Speaker 2: It might have been right after this year. Is there
2:09:55
Speaker 2: coming off one of the super Bowl losses, when they're
2:09:57
Speaker 2: doing the NFL films is doing its year and review,
2:10:00
Speaker 2: they come up with the idea to call the Cowboys
2:10:01
Speaker 2: America's team. Right, So it's all happening at this point.
2:10:05
Speaker 2: And so who's going to get to claim supremacy for
2:10:08
Speaker 2: the decade that's at stake? And I think that's a
2:10:10
Speaker 2: big thing.
2:10:12
Speaker 1: Well, and this is I think you're right, like this
2:10:14
Speaker 1: is Look, the name of the super Bowl is what
2:10:18
Speaker 1: puts arguably the Super Bowl on the map. This is
2:10:23
Speaker 1: the super Bowl where you realize football is super Football
2:10:26
Speaker 1: is bigger than anything, because if you think about it,
2:10:29
Speaker 1: in seventy eight, you had a Dodgers Yankees World Series
2:10:33
Speaker 1: in October of seventy eight, and it's the second of
2:10:36
Speaker 1: a back to back, so you're almost at you you're
2:10:38
Speaker 1: at peak baseball with that world series with their two
2:10:42
Speaker 1: most iconic franchises and the two largest cities meeting. And
2:10:46
Speaker 1: then that winter you've got the you know, essentially the
2:10:50
Speaker 1: two most iconic NFL franchises in that moment, right with
2:10:54
Speaker 1: Steelers and Cowboys. And I can tell you eighty million
2:10:58
Speaker 1: people didn't watch that Dodger Yankees World Series. I'm sure
2:11:01
Speaker 1: they had a lot of people watching that World Series,
2:11:03
Speaker 1: but eighty million people didn't watch that that World Series.
2:11:06
Speaker 1: Eighty million people watch that super Bowl, and every year
2:11:09
Speaker 1: after that, the Super Bowl would break another all time record.
2:11:14
Speaker 2: And so it concludes, it gives you. In seventy nine,
2:11:19
Speaker 2: they win, and then the Pittsburgh Pirates win the World
2:11:24
Speaker 2: Series later that year. City a champion the right and
2:11:27
Speaker 2: the city champions that we are family dealers and it's
2:11:30
Speaker 2: really the uh, you know, the Pirates have really come
2:11:36
Speaker 2: into power. So they have back to back MVPs. Right,
2:11:39
Speaker 2: so Willie Starts and Dave Parker seventy nine and seventy
2:11:42
Speaker 2: eight respectively, they win the most Valuable Players. So it
2:11:46
Speaker 2: all comes together for the city of Pittsburgh at a
2:11:48
Speaker 2: time when the city itself isn't doing so great.
2:11:51
Speaker 1: It's going the other way. Yeah, right, this the steel
2:11:54
Speaker 1: industry is you know, this is ten years now or
2:11:56
Speaker 1: it's just things are not you know, to be look,
2:12:00
Speaker 1: not to make this about our politics of today, but
2:12:02
Speaker 1: sort of the beginning, you know, if you know, you
2:12:03
Speaker 1: wonder how we got here. It was the beginning of
2:12:05
Speaker 1: the hollowing out of our manufacturing sector. In some ways,
2:12:09
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh was the poster child. Now they've also now been
2:12:13
Speaker 1: the poster child of reanimating, renewing themselves. Now it's whins,
2:12:17
Speaker 1: you know, the most liveable city and all of that stuff.
2:12:20
Speaker 1: But it is this weird, and in some ways it
2:12:23
Speaker 1: makes the success of the Pirates and the Steelers that
2:12:26
Speaker 1: much more important to the city of Pittsburgh, right because
2:12:29
Speaker 1: everything else is lost around them, and the one thing
2:12:32
Speaker 1: that brings keeps them together the one thing that keeps
2:12:34
Speaker 1: the community together is that. And we probably ought to
2:12:37
Speaker 1: close this section reminding people of this because I got up.
2:12:41
Speaker 1: We we you know, I got a little dorky about this.
2:12:43
Speaker 1: But it is the only city with at least three
2:12:47
Speaker 1: or more major where every single major sports team has
2:12:52
Speaker 1: the same color scheme.
2:12:54
Speaker 2: Which on love right, like you can wear a Steelers
2:12:57
Speaker 2: if you're a Pittsburgh you can wear like a Steeler
2:13:01
Speaker 2: had and it's all matching.
2:13:02
Speaker 1: It's all like no other major league sports city with
2:13:06
Speaker 1: three or more teams, let alone four, but three or
2:13:09
Speaker 1: more teams right in Washington. Three three of the four
2:13:13
Speaker 1: here in Washington are red, white and blue, but not
2:13:16
Speaker 1: the fourth, not the Commanders. Right wherever you go, none
2:13:20
Speaker 1: of the four have the same that and what I
2:13:23
Speaker 1: love it is it actually goes back to this, to
2:13:26
Speaker 1: the what the original Crest family crest was of of
2:13:32
Speaker 1: Sir William Pitt, of Sir Pitt, and it's like his
2:13:36
Speaker 1: crest was black and gold. And that's how it's the
2:13:39
Speaker 1: cities in the city Charter, the official colors of the
2:13:44
Speaker 1: city are black and gold. So it's fantastic that the
2:13:48
Speaker 1: professional sports teams have all have all embraced that. You know,
2:13:53
Speaker 1: I guess you know, it would be a lot of
2:13:57
Speaker 1: fun if if all of the Minneapolis teams were purple. Right,
2:14:00
Speaker 1: maybe that's why the Lakers have a little purple in them,
2:14:02
Speaker 1: probably now well before Prince.
2:14:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, more than ever. They all need to bring it back.
2:14:07
Speaker 2: You know, the Timberwolves have Prince Knights where they have
2:14:11
Speaker 2: some alternate purple jerseys. But yeah, they should make purple there.
2:14:14
Speaker 1: I mean, they could go with break between Prince the
2:14:16
Speaker 1: purple people leaders, right, I mean purple rain. I mean,
2:14:19
Speaker 1: you know, come on, Minneapolis, you're missing out on something
2:14:22
Speaker 1: here that Pittsburgh is showing us. So look, the seventies
2:14:29
Speaker 1: are the are when they are the peak of the dynasty,
2:14:34
Speaker 1: but the Steelers are become a different franchise and are
2:14:37
Speaker 1: never the same post nineteen seventies and they don't return
2:14:43
Speaker 1: back to their pre nineteen seventies. Ways, we'll get into
2:14:46
Speaker 1: that after the break. So as we say, seventy nine,
2:14:51
Speaker 1: it is peak Pirates and Steelers and they go to
2:14:55
Speaker 1: the White House together March's something that happened very often. Yeah,
2:15:00
Speaker 1: joint trip.
2:15:02
Speaker 2: But you know it's difficult. It kind of the weight
2:15:07
Speaker 2: of it, not only a physical toll, but the pressure.
2:15:11
Speaker 2: So it was interesting. And the lead up to the
2:15:14
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had the opportunity
2:15:18
Speaker 2: to win a three peat and Terry Bradshaw was there
2:15:23
Speaker 2: calling the game for Fox, and one of my students
2:15:26
Speaker 2: actually did a story talking to some of the greats
2:15:29
Speaker 2: like Bradshaw and Joe Montana about what was at stake
2:15:32
Speaker 2: for Mahomes and what it would mean if he did
2:15:35
Speaker 2: win three straight, and so Bradshaw was very candidate. He
2:15:41
Speaker 2: talked about this quote, I found it hard because I
2:15:44
Speaker 2: was tired emotionally and mentally. He said, it was so
2:15:47
Speaker 2: hard to win a Super Bowl, and then you win
2:15:49
Speaker 2: one back to back and you're just like, oh man,
2:15:51
Speaker 2: I got to do it again. And he said the
2:15:55
Speaker 2: pressure never went away. He said, prayed you go downtown.
2:15:58
Speaker 2: They're not hollering good luck. I hope you win it
2:16:00
Speaker 2: next year. It's you better win it next year. And
2:16:05
Speaker 2: that was a lot for them, you know, he would
2:16:07
Speaker 2: go into depressions after the Super Bowl. It'd take them
2:16:10
Speaker 2: weeks to kind of pull out of it because you
2:16:13
Speaker 2: put so much into it and then you get it
2:16:15
Speaker 2: and it's never quite what you expected to be. Right.
2:16:20
Speaker 2: And that's one thing about the Steelers is that they
2:16:23
Speaker 2: won at the highest levels. And it's not a story
2:16:26
Speaker 2: of just pure mirth and happiness and joy, right, There's
2:16:31
Speaker 2: a lot of pain it came with it. It's just football,
2:16:34
Speaker 2: the nature of the sport itself, but also the pressure
2:16:38
Speaker 2: winning it and the fact that winning never feels as
2:16:43
Speaker 2: good as losing feels bad.
2:16:45
Speaker 1: It's funny how it just doesn't. And it's you know,
2:16:47
Speaker 1: you learn this in life, right, You attain it. You're
2:16:50
Speaker 1: so driven to get a goal, you attain it, and
2:16:53
Speaker 1: then you sometimes are like, well, now what, right, what's
2:16:58
Speaker 1: the next goal? And you hear this with these great athletes,
2:17:01
Speaker 1: you know, and sometimes they you know, you know, they
2:17:05
Speaker 1: they they got to find a new ambition, or they
2:17:07
Speaker 1: got to find a new drive, or sometimes they don't
2:17:09
Speaker 1: want to give it up. That's why they that's why
2:17:12
Speaker 1: they don't retire. Probably when they should retire, they usually
2:17:15
Speaker 1: hang on because it's if they are driven and they
2:17:19
Speaker 1: want to keep succeeding and until they find that another
2:17:23
Speaker 1: thing to try to succeed in. And eventually Terry Bradshaw
2:17:26
Speaker 1: gets gets a you know, a broadcasting career and a
2:17:30
Speaker 1: bit of a I guess a cultural zeitgeist career. I
2:17:33
Speaker 1: don't know what else you'd call him, right, you know,
2:17:35
Speaker 1: not quite an acting career, but sort of he was ubiquitous,
2:17:41
Speaker 1: right somehow, Right, he was kind of John maddeney in
2:17:46
Speaker 1: some ways on that front. But you know, here's something
2:17:51
Speaker 1: that I've always wondered about Bradshaw. How many injuries did
2:17:56
Speaker 1: he not get properly fixed in the seventies?
2:18:00
Speaker 2: Right?
2:18:01
Speaker 1: What you know, if it's if you have today's health
2:18:03
Speaker 1: and safety protocols, does Bradshaw have a career that lasts
2:18:08
Speaker 1: more successfully through the mid to late eighties.
2:18:11
Speaker 2: You have to think. So, you know, he he said
2:18:14
Speaker 2: he had more than six concussions at least, you know,
2:18:18
Speaker 2: those are just the ones that that he was diagnosed with, right,
2:18:22
Speaker 2: and just and just the litany of other injuries too,
2:18:25
Speaker 2: and so's he's talked about the just the pain, the
2:18:28
Speaker 2: the arthritis, the depression that he's done, all these things
2:18:33
Speaker 2: that that were the consequence of it. And Mike Webster
2:18:38
Speaker 2: becomes kind of the the he wants. He winds up
2:18:42
Speaker 2: being the example of the longtime center for the Steelers,
2:18:47
Speaker 2: and he bore the brunt of that, right, and he
2:18:50
Speaker 2: when when you think of, and we started to really
2:18:52
Speaker 2: become aware of of the brain damage that was done.
2:18:57
Speaker 2: And in addition all the other physical injuries. And Mike
2:19:00
Speaker 2: Webster dies in his early fifties. Uh and and just
2:19:05
Speaker 2: the last years were not good for him. He was
2:19:08
Speaker 2: someone who he would he would you know, had marital
2:19:12
Speaker 2: issues and he would drive his car and and just
2:19:16
Speaker 2: park it outside where his his ex wife and their
2:19:18
Speaker 2: kids lived, and you know, they would they would feel afraid,
2:19:23
Speaker 2: you know, they were uncertain as to what he would
2:19:25
Speaker 2: do next.
2:19:26
Speaker 1: There's a whole book about all the all the dead
2:19:29
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Steelers, and it's because so many of them died.
2:19:35
Speaker 1: It all felt too soon, right, and and Webster is
2:19:39
Speaker 1: one of them, and you know the Joe Gilliam's one
2:19:43
Speaker 1: of them. It's just that one book that we that
2:19:46
Speaker 1: we used in here, that that that focused on that.
2:19:48
Speaker 2: With some it.
2:19:52
Speaker 1: In some ways it's it's uh, I don't want to
2:19:54
Speaker 1: say it's the darker side of football, but it is
2:19:57
Speaker 1: certainly the the price that had to be paid for
2:20:01
Speaker 1: success in football, but particularly you know, every we're better
2:20:06
Speaker 1: about it now. The health and safety protocols are better
2:20:09
Speaker 1: today than they were. But you know, I could argue
2:20:14
Speaker 1: this is still not a league that prioritizes player safety.
2:20:17
Speaker 1: They just don't deemphasize it the way they once.
2:20:19
Speaker 2: Did in the nineteen eighties. It's kind of the expiration
2:20:23
Speaker 2: not only of their careers, but of their way and
2:20:26
Speaker 2: their formula. And they had one with defense. For as
2:20:30
Speaker 2: great as star Wars and Harris and Swann and Bradshaw were,
2:20:36
Speaker 2: the strength of that team, the core of it really
2:20:38
Speaker 2: was the defense. But you know, thanks to the rule
2:20:41
Speaker 2: changes come along, and then the late nineteen seventies and
2:20:44
Speaker 2: then the innovation of offensive geniuses like Bill Watsh and
2:20:48
Speaker 2: the San Francisco forty nine ers in the West Coast offense,
2:20:52
Speaker 2: it's a new game and the Steelers aren't prepared to
2:20:56
Speaker 2: and Chuck Nole certainly isn't willing willing participant in this
2:21:01
Speaker 2: new era. And then the other thing is the advantage
2:21:05
Speaker 2: that they had in drafting these HBCU players was going
2:21:09
Speaker 2: away because as college football was becoming more integrated. Now
2:21:14
Speaker 2: the best Black Southern players now have the opportunity to
2:21:17
Speaker 2: play in the Southeastern Conference or in the old Big
2:21:20
Speaker 2: Eight Conference at Oklahoma or.
2:21:22
Speaker 1: The Honestly, I've always said, you know what you know
2:21:26
Speaker 1: the rise of the Miami Hurricanes in the eighties, Yes,
2:21:29
Speaker 1: was mostly do they were. They were one of the
2:21:31
Speaker 1: first college programs to recruit in the inner cities, and
2:21:35
Speaker 1: that was you know, back then those players were going
2:21:37
Speaker 1: to HBCUs they were going to Florida and m in Florida,
2:21:40
Speaker 1: or they were going to they were not going to Miami, Florida,
2:21:42
Speaker 1: Florida State exactly.
2:21:44
Speaker 2: So the Florida schools, the big SEC schools. You know
2:21:48
Speaker 2: that it's changing. So that edge, that that marketing efficiency
2:21:52
Speaker 2: that the Steelers had been able to exploit, now that's
2:21:56
Speaker 2: gone away. And as Bradshaw retires, a lot of great
2:22:03
Speaker 2: quarterbacks come in the league and the Steelers don't get
2:22:06
Speaker 2: any of them. John l Way, Dan Marino.
2:22:10
Speaker 1: Well, the age old I was just gonna say, you know,
2:22:12
Speaker 1: Johnny Unitas is the is clearly the quarterback that got
2:22:16
Speaker 1: away first in this franchise.
2:22:19
Speaker 2: But there isn't. They never got there one.
2:22:21
Speaker 1: They never got and they did not everybody wanted it.
2:22:23
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Dan Marino, Yeah, that the the Marinos
2:22:30
Speaker 1: story is one of those it's little head scratcher, but
2:22:36
Speaker 1: they don't get them.
2:22:38
Speaker 2: And it costs Art Rooney Junior his job. So he
2:22:42
Speaker 2: was responsible for scouting. October fourteenth, nineteen eighty six, Dan
2:22:47
Speaker 2: Rooney brings Art in for a meeting and he tells him,
2:22:52
Speaker 2: I want you out of the day to day business.
2:22:54
Speaker 2: To me, it's reminiscent of the Godfather of Michael Corleono,
2:22:57
Speaker 2: who tells Tom Hagen, you're out, Tom, you know, And
2:23:01
Speaker 2: so I mean for a brother to basically fire his brother,
2:23:08
Speaker 2: it's very mochiavellian. But I think that was the key
2:23:13
Speaker 2: miss right, missing on Marino cost him his job.
2:23:17
Speaker 1: Well. Tony Dungee, who of course was was was an
2:23:22
Speaker 1: important part of that early of those of that early
2:23:25
Speaker 1: Steelers staff there. He says that Noel didn't want to
2:23:30
Speaker 1: draft Marino because he thought it would have killed Bradshaw.
2:23:34
Speaker 1: And he still thought Bradshaw a couple more years. It
2:23:37
Speaker 1: was a bit of a loyalty play. He chucked it
2:23:39
Speaker 1: up to loyalty. But you know, it's interesting with Nolan Bradshaw, right,
2:23:45
Speaker 1: It wasn't a Bradshaw didn't always know where he stood
2:23:48
Speaker 1: with Noel, but at the end he was protecting him.
2:23:53
Speaker 2: He wasn't fond of him for most of the time together.
2:23:55
Speaker 1: Though, right, But at the end he was protective of him,
2:23:58
Speaker 1: and he didn't want to do this. There's a little
2:24:00
Speaker 1: anecdote here that Noel calls Don Shula after Miami takes Marino,
2:24:04
Speaker 1: and he tells him, you probably got the best guy
2:24:06
Speaker 1: in the draft. Like Noel knew it. So it's not
2:24:10
Speaker 1: that they didn't know, but they didn't have the guts
2:24:15
Speaker 1: to start. It's funny what made them, what created their
2:24:19
Speaker 1: team of the seventies. They hung on too long?
2:24:24
Speaker 2: Right, So you compare that, say with the forty nine ers,
2:24:27
Speaker 2: right who you have at all Timer and Joe Montana,
2:24:30
Speaker 2: but you also have Steve Young there and eventually they
2:24:32
Speaker 2: force out Montana and go with Young and they do
2:24:36
Speaker 2: win another Super Bowl. So you wonder, God, if they
2:24:39
Speaker 2: had Marina. I mean, they get Marino gets to a
2:24:42
Speaker 2: super Bowl pretty quickly in Miami. He doesn't have the
2:24:45
Speaker 2: infrastructure around him that the Steelers had, so you wonder
2:24:47
Speaker 2: if the Steelers could.
2:24:48
Speaker 1: Have been imagine just the Marino to stalwart. Marino kept
2:24:51
Speaker 1: throwing the guys that nobody had ever heard of, I mean,
2:24:54
Speaker 1: no offense to the You know, Mark Duper and Mark
2:24:57
Speaker 1: Clayton became famous simply because they were the the Marx
2:25:00
Speaker 1: brothers because Marino got him the ball. But imagine if
2:25:03
Speaker 1: Marino gets to start throwing to John Stalworth. And it
2:25:06
Speaker 1: was really more Stalwarth at that point than Swan, but
2:25:10
Speaker 1: imagine if he gets Stalwarth. It's a whole different, you
2:25:14
Speaker 1: know it. It is an interesting fork in the road.
2:25:17
Speaker 1: And look, Marino fell in the draft because Marino got
2:25:20
Speaker 1: hurt his senior year at pitt So you know, it
2:25:23
Speaker 1: was one of those where he was available when Pittsburgh
2:25:26
Speaker 1: was drafted.
2:25:27
Speaker 2: You know, and all those guys from that great draft
2:25:29
Speaker 2: run are aging and so as great as they did
2:25:34
Speaker 2: in that in that stretch from nineteen seventy five to
2:25:38
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, only five Steelers drafted in that stretch
2:25:41
Speaker 2: made the Pro Bowl.
2:25:43
Speaker 1: Do Bradshaw and Noe'll ever make peace?
2:25:46
Speaker 2: They do? Yeah, they they make up. They you know,
2:25:50
Speaker 2: Bradshaw comes back. They they asked him back for some
2:25:54
Speaker 2: type of ceremony and he was wavering on it. And
2:25:59
Speaker 2: he came back and he wasn't sure what type of
2:26:01
Speaker 2: reception he was going to get, and the fans just
2:26:04
Speaker 2: showered him and loved and ovation, and I think that
2:26:08
Speaker 2: was enough to kind of bring him back in the fold.
2:26:11
Speaker 1: Look, it's not like Nolan Bradshaw having an uncomfortable relationship,
2:26:15
Speaker 1: you know, Belichick Brady, that was a divorce. That was
2:26:18
Speaker 1: an ugly divorce, you know, and uh, you know, the
2:26:23
Speaker 1: only difference between Nolan Bradshaw's that neither one of them
2:26:26
Speaker 1: went on to go win something else.
2:26:27
Speaker 2: I mean, they were both you know, pretty much done
2:26:30
Speaker 2: right and you know, but well, we'll see how my
2:26:37
Speaker 2: grable works out. But not the guy that follows them.
2:26:40
Speaker 2: I mean, the Steelers really lucked out and that the
2:26:43
Speaker 2: guy that followed no was maybe not as equal, but
2:26:48
Speaker 2: it was certainly up to the job.
2:26:50
Speaker 1: Any other set of owners probably cut ties with Noel
2:26:53
Speaker 1: sooner than the Steelers, right. I mean, if if there's
2:26:57
Speaker 1: ever been a criticism of they do they that you
2:27:00
Speaker 1: could argue they hung onto all three of their legendary
2:27:03
Speaker 1: coaches a few years too long, if you were judging
2:27:05
Speaker 1: that by by sort of the way almost every other
2:27:09
Speaker 1: team handles their coaching situations.
2:27:12
Speaker 2: It's funny because Bill Belichick became known for, you know,
2:27:15
Speaker 2: he'd rather cut a guy too soon than too late.
2:27:18
Speaker 1: Right.
2:27:19
Speaker 2: But I think there's something when you establish an organizational
2:27:23
Speaker 2: ethos of stability that wins out over the long term,
2:27:28
Speaker 2: you know, and I think it also buys you investment
2:27:30
Speaker 2: from the fans, right you come to trust that this
2:27:34
Speaker 2: organization will get it right over the long term, and
2:27:38
Speaker 2: maybe there's a little bit of short term suffering, but
2:27:41
Speaker 2: over the long term, we'll get it well. And there's
2:27:44
Speaker 2: this organizational stability in place. And it's not just at
2:27:47
Speaker 2: the coach for example, it's like Steelers centers became almost
2:27:51
Speaker 2: like Steeler's coaches. So when Mike Webster, who was the
2:27:54
Speaker 2: last of that great seventies team to retire, he was
2:27:58
Speaker 2: the center for fourteen years, GERMANI Dawson replaces him, He's
2:28:02
Speaker 2: the center for ten years. So you have two players
2:28:06
Speaker 2: at a very grueling position. You only have two players
2:28:10
Speaker 2: basically for twenty four years at the center position. So
2:28:14
Speaker 2: that's the type of foundation that the Steelers had that
2:28:18
Speaker 2: I think allowed them to rebound pretty quickly.
2:28:21
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, when you look back at the
2:28:23
Speaker 1: on the decade of the eighties, I don't want to
2:28:25
Speaker 1: call it a lost decade for the Steelers because they
2:28:28
Speaker 1: had a lost start to their franchise, right the fifties
2:28:31
Speaker 1: and eighties, right, it is still but if you actually
2:28:36
Speaker 1: look at all of the decades since the first four
2:28:38
Speaker 1: Super Bowls. The eighties, the nineties, the odds, the teams.
2:28:41
Speaker 1: You could argue the eighties is is the worst decade
2:28:46
Speaker 1: in the modern history of the Steelers.
2:28:48
Speaker 2: I mean the fact that Noel stuck around through all
2:28:51
Speaker 2: of it, right, it probably is too long that you know,
2:28:55
Speaker 2: he he wasn't the right guy for that decade, right
2:28:59
Speaker 2: what the NFL had become.
2:29:01
Speaker 1: Well, because they hadn't. Right, he didn't transition to a
2:29:03
Speaker 1: passing offense, even though ironically he kind of he was
2:29:06
Speaker 1: part of that Chargers staff that was that was like it.
2:29:10
Speaker 1: He was considered an innovator of his day in the
2:29:14
Speaker 1: early in the early seventies, but that was.
2:29:19
Speaker 2: In literally different rules. You wonder if going to the
2:29:23
Speaker 2: sixteen game schedule, you know, he was a pretty tough
2:29:26
Speaker 2: practice guy, if maybe his teams weren't quite equip for
2:29:31
Speaker 2: that longer season, as intense as and as hard as
2:29:34
Speaker 2: he liked to go like. He was a big ban
2:29:35
Speaker 2: of the Oklahoma drill, right like the dreaded Oklahoma though
2:29:38
Speaker 2: where like an offensive player, the defensive player lineup and
2:29:40
Speaker 2: the rest of the players all stand and circle around
2:29:43
Speaker 2: him and they just go at it, right, big ban
2:29:44
Speaker 2: of the Oklahoma drew and you know, longer season and
2:29:49
Speaker 2: changing ways of players, Oklahoma dro might not be the
2:29:52
Speaker 2: way to go.
2:29:54
Speaker 1: So in nineteen ninety one they go seven and nine
2:29:58
Speaker 1: and Chuck Knowles last seas and so it is sort
2:30:01
Speaker 1: of a it's one of those you're like a man
2:30:04
Speaker 1: it considering how other Steelers coaches got to leave, right
2:30:08
Speaker 1: the fact that he ends up with a losing record
2:30:10
Speaker 1: seven to nine, he decides it's over. I don't it's
2:30:15
Speaker 1: certainly the more I've learned about the Rooneyes, if Noel
2:30:19
Speaker 1: wanted to keep coaching, they don't let him keep coaching,
2:30:21
Speaker 1: I think, don't you?
2:30:24
Speaker 2: I think so? I mean the other the two guys
2:30:26
Speaker 2: that replaced him essentially got to leave at their choosing,
2:30:31
Speaker 2: you know, and on their timing. So given what we've seen, yeah,
2:30:38
Speaker 2: it feels like the coach gets to make the calls.
2:30:41
Speaker 2: That's the ethos of the Steelers organization.
2:30:43
Speaker 1: A couple of fun little anecdotes about his closing press conference.
2:30:46
Speaker 1: First of all, Noel, as you you were talking about that,
2:30:50
Speaker 1: you know where he's writing with doctor Z and he's
2:30:52
Speaker 1: looking at a frozen pond and he's got all these
2:30:54
Speaker 1: thoughts about a frozen pond. So I don't think it's
2:30:56
Speaker 1: going to shock you that it is. Closing press conference.
2:30:58
Speaker 1: He quotes Ralph Emerson, okay, and he says, your actions
2:31:04
Speaker 1: speaks so loudly, I can't hear what you're saying, and
2:31:09
Speaker 1: he kind of you know, when Noel left, he left.
2:31:13
Speaker 1: You know, part of the reason I think why Chuck
2:31:14
Speaker 1: Nole is not given sometime his immediate dude, right, football
2:31:18
Speaker 1: historians immediately you go there and he realizes his record
2:31:21
Speaker 1: stands for itself, for super Bowls, all of those things.
2:31:23
Speaker 1: But when he left, he left, man, it was very
2:31:25
Speaker 1: Johnny Carson, right, I was out right. He just disappeared.
2:31:29
Speaker 1: He and his wife lived on a boat for months.
2:31:31
Speaker 1: I mean when he left, he left, he flew his plane,
2:31:35
Speaker 1: he made wine, he like conducting music. But he was
2:31:39
Speaker 1: when he left football. You didn't see him in a
2:31:41
Speaker 1: studio show.
2:31:43
Speaker 2: Funny because that's not the template for those who have
2:31:45
Speaker 2: followed him, because Bill Hower we see all the time,
2:31:48
Speaker 2: to the point that you know, for a while, we
2:31:50
Speaker 2: kept thinking how would come back to coach because he
2:31:53
Speaker 2: was still pretty young when he when he left, because
2:31:56
Speaker 2: he started so early, and nope, he just dated CBS
2:31:59
Speaker 2: and we see him all the time. He hasn't gone away,
2:32:02
Speaker 2: but we see him. And then we just learned late
2:32:04
Speaker 2: literally the day as we record this, the news has
2:32:08
Speaker 2: broken that Mike Tomlin is going to join the NBC
2:32:11
Speaker 2: Right Studio show. So we'll be seeing Mike Tomlin. He's
2:32:14
Speaker 2: not going away, and yet Chuck no will being away.
2:32:18
Speaker 1: Right, And of course Mike Tomlin, everybody believes, is going
2:32:22
Speaker 1: to be on the short list of anybody who needs
2:32:23
Speaker 1: a new head coach next season, right, like like Cower
2:32:26
Speaker 1: those first couple of years in the studio, the first
2:32:29
Speaker 1: name on the tip of everybody's tongue is going to
2:32:32
Speaker 1: be Mike Tomlin.
2:32:35
Speaker 2: I could see him being done because you know what,
2:32:38
Speaker 2: He'll know he'll never have another organization where it's like Pittsburgh,
2:32:44
Speaker 2: where you're never just one loss away from being fired.
2:32:48
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, you want to work
2:32:49
Speaker 1: for Arthur Blank or Dan or the Rooney family, right,
2:32:54
Speaker 1: And no disrespect to mister Blank, but he clearly is
2:32:57
Speaker 1: you know, he wants to win, and he wants to win.
2:32:59
Speaker 1: Now you look at somebody these you want to work
2:33:01
Speaker 1: for Jerry Jones? Do you want to work for the Rooneyes?
2:33:04
Speaker 2: Right?
2:33:05
Speaker 1: Although the Jerry Jones. One of the underrated parts of
2:33:07
Speaker 1: him is weirdly loyal to his head coaches. He's actually
2:33:10
Speaker 1: been more loyal to his head coaches than he gets
2:33:12
Speaker 1: credit for.
2:33:13
Speaker 2: Now Boys, Yeah, yeah, they are good draft, a good
2:33:17
Speaker 2: draft record in the draft.
2:33:20
Speaker 1: So Bill Cower, you know, when he's hired. It's kind
2:33:23
Speaker 1: of out of nowhere at the time, and there were
2:33:28
Speaker 1: two finalists. It was Bill Kauer and Dave Wantstad. And
2:33:32
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if if if you put Dave Wantstadt and
2:33:35
Speaker 1: Bill Cower in a lineup, people would get him confused.
2:33:38
Speaker 1: Is he is he the guy that looks like he's
2:33:40
Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh with the mustache, or he's the guy with
2:33:42
Speaker 1: the mustache who looks like he's for Pittsburgh, right, Like, like,
2:33:45
Speaker 1: are you are we sure they hired Coward that he
2:33:48
Speaker 1: didn't mean to hire Wantstad, Right, He's like, I wanted
2:33:50
Speaker 1: the guy with the mustache.
2:33:53
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny and Wance that comes to Chicago just
2:33:56
Speaker 2: a couple of years after Cowards in in uh in
2:33:59
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh and coming off the Cowboys when the Cowboys are
2:34:03
Speaker 2: at the peak. He's on Jimmy Johnson's staff there. That's
2:34:05
Speaker 2: win in Super Bowls, and there are all these high expectations,
2:34:08
Speaker 2: and so there's an affiliate affiliation from Western Pennsylvania people
2:34:14
Speaker 2: here in Chicago because of Mike Ditka, Western Pa guy
2:34:18
Speaker 2: who was pretty successful and was very beloved in Chicago's
2:34:22
Speaker 2: so wants that checked all these boxes and it just
2:34:26
Speaker 2: didn't work for him, although he still liked and accepted
2:34:29
Speaker 2: and he's on TV here in Chicago, so they haven't
2:34:31
Speaker 2: run him out of town permanently, but it just didn't
2:34:34
Speaker 2: work out as well it worked out for Cower and
2:34:36
Speaker 2: just Steelers, and you wonder if it worked out better
2:34:39
Speaker 2: for Cower. Again, pretty similar in a lot of ways
2:34:42
Speaker 2: and had had similar success up to that point as
2:34:45
Speaker 2: assistant coaches, but you didn't have the organization.
2:34:49
Speaker 1: Well, he was part of the Marty Schottenheimer tree, which
2:34:51
Speaker 1: isn't It wasn't a bad tree.
2:34:53
Speaker 2: Then, at least for regular season success.
2:34:55
Speaker 1: And when he be right, yea fair And when he
2:34:59
Speaker 1: got the the Steelers job, he had actually had already.
2:35:01
Speaker 1: He had interviewed for the Browns head coaching job and
2:35:05
Speaker 1: lost out to a guy named Bill Belichick. He was
2:35:08
Speaker 1: a finalist for the Bengals job, lost out to a
2:35:10
Speaker 1: guy named Dave Shula, son of and then he gets
2:35:14
Speaker 1: then he gets the call from Pittsburgh and at thirty
2:35:18
Speaker 1: four he's hired. He's got this great quote from the
2:35:21
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Post Gazette. He says, if I'm dreaming, don't wake
2:35:24
Speaker 1: me up. It's a hell of an honor for a
2:35:25
Speaker 1: young guy to come home and coach the Pittsburgh Steelers.
2:35:28
Speaker 1: I mean it really was local kid done good.
2:35:32
Speaker 2: So Caler Well, maybe not as innovative and creative in
2:35:38
Speaker 2: his use and integration of black players as Chuck Nole was.
2:35:41
Speaker 2: I'm going to give him credit kind of. At this
2:35:44
Speaker 2: we're at this interim stage for black quarterbacks. So you know,
2:35:48
Speaker 2: the Steelers are way ahead of the game with Gilliam
2:35:51
Speaker 2: to think that. Later in that decade, Warren Moon comes
2:35:55
Speaker 2: out of Washington, so he's done in nineteen seventy seven,
2:35:58
Speaker 2: doesn't get drafted in the NFL because there is still
2:36:01
Speaker 2: that existing stigma of black quarterbacks, and has to play
2:36:05
Speaker 2: in the Canadian Football League for seven years. Finally comes
2:36:08
Speaker 2: to the NFL with Houston in nineteen eighty four and
2:36:11
Speaker 2: goes on to have a Hall of Fame career from
2:36:13
Speaker 2: that point. Can you imagine if he played the entirety
2:36:15
Speaker 2: of his career in the NFL. So that's the seventies.
2:36:19
Speaker 2: You know, Now by the time Cower comes along, we've
2:36:21
Speaker 2: had Doug Williams in the Super Bowl at Washington, right,
2:36:25
Speaker 2: We've had Randall Cunningham in Philadelphia. And so the Steelers
2:36:31
Speaker 2: version of that, they draft Cordell Stewart out of Colorado,
2:36:35
Speaker 2: certainly had the arm strength. If you saw that seventy.
2:36:38
Speaker 1: Yard one of the great Hail Mary crew to.
2:36:41
Speaker 2: Michael Westbrook in Michigan. I covered that game, by the way,
2:36:43
Speaker 2: I was just about to go downstairs, you know, because
2:36:46
Speaker 2: Michigan was going to win the game. I was about
2:36:47
Speaker 2: to get in the elevator like Hert Rooney during immaculate reception.
2:36:52
Speaker 2: But I paused, and I look at the ball and
2:36:54
Speaker 2: like Stewart drops back like to his own thirty and
2:36:57
Speaker 2: he throws it all the way down the field where
2:37:00
Speaker 2: Michael Westbrook catches it. So he had the arm strength and.
2:37:03
Speaker 1: Might be the longest tail Mary. I don't know if
2:37:05
Speaker 1: that is action, but it might be.
2:37:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I think officially with sixty three yards from
2:37:10
Speaker 2: the line of scrimmage, but he threw it a good
2:37:12
Speaker 2: seventy yards in the air. So he's adamant that he
2:37:19
Speaker 2: wants to come to the league as a quarterback. You
2:37:21
Speaker 2: still were seeing a lot of black quarterbacks in college
2:37:24
Speaker 2: get oh.
2:37:24
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, Let's make him a halfback or
2:37:26
Speaker 1: a receiver.
2:37:27
Speaker 2: Receiver or something. So they kind of reached a hybrid agreement,
2:37:32
Speaker 2: and he starts eighty games at quarterback for Pittsburgh the Stewart,
2:37:37
Speaker 2: but he also rushes about five hundred times for over
2:37:41
Speaker 2: twenty five hundred yards and thirty five touchdowns rushing, he
2:37:45
Speaker 2: also winds up with forty one receptions for six hundred
2:37:48
Speaker 2: and fifty eight yards and five touchdowns. And they called
2:37:51
Speaker 2: him slash as in quarterback, slash running back, slash wide receiver,
2:37:57
Speaker 2: and so I think a very innovative way to use
2:38:00
Speaker 2: him by cower So again and.
2:38:03
Speaker 1: By the way, then, and I believe they end up
2:38:06
Speaker 1: end up with Antoine Randall l who was a quarterback
2:38:08
Speaker 1: at Indiana is now a college football power in Indiana University.
2:38:12
Speaker 1: But back then, nobody ever thought of Indiana as a
2:38:15
Speaker 1: big and he was a running quarterback that basically made
2:38:19
Speaker 1: Indiana more competitive than they should have been. And he
2:38:22
Speaker 1: ends up more having a bigger career being a receiver
2:38:25
Speaker 1: and being sort of slashed too if I'm not yea.
2:38:28
Speaker 2: So tower with these compromises and hybrid usage. So I
2:38:34
Speaker 2: give him credit for that. So there were some issues
2:38:38
Speaker 2: for a steward that he didn't work out as a
2:38:40
Speaker 2: long term solution. Some of that was beyond his control.
2:38:42
Speaker 2: The Stewards went through, for example, three offensive coordinators in
2:38:45
Speaker 2: three years at one stretch while he was there. They
2:38:48
Speaker 2: had twelve offensive coordinators since nineteen ninety. So we look
2:38:52
Speaker 2: at the stability at the head coaching that wasn't there
2:38:54
Speaker 2: at offense cordon. And now some of it was guys
2:38:56
Speaker 2: getting jobs like Bruce Arians for example, getting head coaching jobs.
2:39:00
Speaker 2: But and I would say especially even more so under Tomlin,
2:39:04
Speaker 2: they just had trouble with that position, more stability a
2:39:06
Speaker 2: defensive coordinator, especially when Dick lebou was there for over
2:39:10
Speaker 2: a decade in the two thousands. But you know, I
2:39:14
Speaker 2: don't think you saw that attrition of the assistant coaching
2:39:17
Speaker 2: staff in the in the seventies as you started to
2:39:20
Speaker 2: get in the nineties.
2:39:22
Speaker 1: Well, one other thing on Coor is he had a
2:39:27
Speaker 1: he wanted a relationship with Noel and never could really
2:39:29
Speaker 1: develop one. First of all, There's this interesting detail when
2:39:37
Speaker 1: Ker arrives at Steelers for the Steelers facility for his
2:39:41
Speaker 1: first day, Noel left absolutely nothing in the office. No playbooks,
2:39:47
Speaker 1: no notes, no handbooks, no files, no guide to how
2:39:50
Speaker 1: the organization works. The office was completely cleared, and Cower's
2:39:55
Speaker 1: first reaction, as he described in his in his book,
2:39:58
Speaker 1: was complete disorientation, like how do you follow twenty three
2:40:01
Speaker 1: years of institutional knowledge that walked out the door in
2:40:05
Speaker 1: one man's briefcase. And now over time Noel he sort
2:40:10
Speaker 1: of saw it as Knowles unspoken lesson a build it yourself,
2:40:13
Speaker 1: don't inherit my way, find your own way, and it
2:40:16
Speaker 1: may explain. There's this great anecdote where Nolan Cower on
2:40:19
Speaker 1: a private plane together and Coward's thinking, finally I'm gonna
2:40:22
Speaker 1: pick chuck Noles's brain, and Nole's giving him nothing, just
2:40:26
Speaker 1: a bunch of one word answers.
2:40:27
Speaker 2: You know, So I'll ask you, would you rather deal
2:40:30
Speaker 2: with the legendary coach who won't leave anything behind in
2:40:33
Speaker 2: the office, or would you rather have a legendary coach
2:40:36
Speaker 2: who won't leave the office, Because that's what happened to
2:40:39
Speaker 2: Doug Williams when he took over for the legendary Eddie
2:40:42
Speaker 2: Robinson at Grambling who had been his coach when Doug
2:40:44
Speaker 2: played at Grambling, right, and you know, it wasn't going
2:40:48
Speaker 2: very well down the stretch for Freddie Robinson.
2:40:51
Speaker 1: You're describing Georgetown basketball, by the way in the later
2:40:54
Speaker 1: years when when Big John just never would leave. He laughed,
2:40:58
Speaker 1: but he didn't leave, and he was always kind of
2:41:00
Speaker 1: hanging around, and it didn't matter whether his son was coach,
2:41:03
Speaker 1: didn't matter whether it was the old assistant that was coach.
2:41:05
Speaker 1: He just didn't leave.
2:41:07
Speaker 2: So when Doug got there, he literally couldn't use the
2:41:11
Speaker 2: office because Eddie Robinson was still in there. I went
2:41:13
Speaker 2: down to do a story on all this, and right
2:41:15
Speaker 2: before I got there, Eddie had just laughed and moved
2:41:19
Speaker 2: into this. It was like a house on campus, and
2:41:22
Speaker 2: his office was there, and I'll never forget. Here's this
2:41:25
Speaker 2: all time great coach winning as coach in college football
2:41:28
Speaker 2: or among them, and he's sitting there and it's just
2:41:31
Speaker 2: got all this stuff in like a little temporary box
2:41:33
Speaker 2: on the side. It's got kind of like a little
2:41:35
Speaker 2: cardboard desk almostly sitting there, and Eddie Robinson is there,
2:41:40
Speaker 2: and this woman, this freshman pokes her head in. She
2:41:43
Speaker 2: has no idea where she is or who she's talking
2:41:45
Speaker 2: and she says, you know what the bookstore is? And
2:41:47
Speaker 2: he says, bookstore, it's that way and smiles at her,
2:41:51
Speaker 2: and she wants not knowing who she just talked to,
2:41:54
Speaker 2: this Hall of Fame coach, And so a lot of
2:41:57
Speaker 2: times the ending is not that there's really no good
2:42:00
Speaker 2: way for that. Doesn't Bill Belichick didn't he deserved better
2:42:03
Speaker 2: than the way it went down at the end. So
2:42:07
Speaker 2: very few get their way, Honestly, Cower and Tomlin had
2:42:12
Speaker 2: as graceful an exit as you could ask for.
2:42:16
Speaker 1: Well, especially Cower right like he got to sort of
2:42:19
Speaker 1: leave he was getting. I mean, it's interesting about Cowie.
2:42:21
Speaker 1: He gets to a super Bowl pretty quick, right, gets
2:42:23
Speaker 1: there in ninety five, they lose to the cow what
2:42:26
Speaker 1: was probably the best version of the Cowboys that we've
2:42:29
Speaker 1: ever seen, right in that ninety five super Bowl. I mean,
2:42:36
Speaker 1: I don't know what your thought is on that, on
2:42:38
Speaker 1: that first Cower Super Bowl, but that felt like a
2:42:41
Speaker 1: Steelers team that was lucky to get there.
2:42:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you know, o' donald get yeah, yeah, it
2:42:48
Speaker 2: was a far cry from Super Bowl thirteen. Put it
2:42:51
Speaker 2: that right, and it wasn't.
2:42:52
Speaker 1: And then later the one super Bowl the Coward does
2:42:55
Speaker 1: get back in ten years later in two thousand and five,
2:42:58
Speaker 1: that team felt more and you know, felt a little
2:43:02
Speaker 1: bit more like the original dynasty of the seventies rather
2:43:08
Speaker 1: than this one. But look, Cower has a pretty you know,
2:43:11
Speaker 1: coward started developing a bit of a reputation for not
2:43:14
Speaker 1: being able to win the big one.
2:43:16
Speaker 2: Right.
2:43:16
Speaker 1: He gets to the playoffs quite a bit, goes to
2:43:18
Speaker 1: that one super Bowl, loses, gets the AFC Title Game,
2:43:21
Speaker 1: but he can't seem to win the big one until
2:43:26
Speaker 1: they have their magical season of two thousand and five,
2:43:28
Speaker 1: which is probably one of the more iconic seasons. And Steel,
2:43:32
Speaker 1: you know, that isn't part of those seventies teams.
2:43:35
Speaker 2: Although I covered that Super Bowl and yeah, it wasn't
2:43:39
Speaker 2: a great dominant performance and I'll never forget. Before the game,
2:43:42
Speaker 2: Ben Roethlisberger is going around like his teammates are stretching
2:43:46
Speaker 2: on the field and he's going around hyping everybody up.
2:43:49
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking he seems to be trying a
2:43:51
Speaker 2: little too hard. He seems a little too into this,
2:43:54
Speaker 2: And he admitted later that he he was still a kid.
2:44:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's not forget like he is. This is his
2:44:03
Speaker 1: second year in the NFL.
2:44:05
Speaker 2: I want to say, hey, he gets the AFC Championship
2:44:07
Speaker 2: his first year. Yeah, and uh and this isn't a
2:44:10
Speaker 2: second I think he'd been a little bit longer. But
2:44:13
Speaker 2: he he uh yeah, he didn't know how to approach
2:44:17
Speaker 2: this in this game, but they won nevertheless. I will
2:44:21
Speaker 2: say that's when I really felt the impact of the
2:44:24
Speaker 2: Steeler fandom because we're in Detroit at Ford Fields, and
2:44:30
Speaker 2: it felt like all the Seahawks fans were like in
2:44:33
Speaker 2: one little corner in the upper level of the stadium,
2:44:36
Speaker 2: and like the rest was all Pittsburgh fans. It was
2:44:39
Speaker 2: really an impressive showing by them at a supposedly neutral site.
2:44:44
Speaker 2: They just completely took over.
2:44:47
Speaker 1: Well, this is where when you say Cower truly left
2:44:50
Speaker 1: sort of on a high note, right, I mean, he
2:44:53
Speaker 1: he gets his Super Bowl in five and he resigns
2:44:59
Speaker 1: the following year, and of course, as we noted, you know,
2:45:02
Speaker 1: was rumored to be the next coach of ever of
2:45:04
Speaker 1: about four or five different teams for about two or
2:45:06
Speaker 1: three years until people finally realized Cower's done. You know,
2:45:11
Speaker 1: he's he lived that coach's life. And I think what
2:45:14
Speaker 1: we're learning about, especially the modern day NFL head coach.
2:45:18
Speaker 1: It's a it's a seven day a week job, three
2:45:20
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five days a year. There's no you know,
2:45:22
Speaker 1: there's no off season.
2:45:25
Speaker 2: And there's there's increasingly no way to turn off the noise,
2:45:29
Speaker 2: to just go fishing or golfing and and just clear
2:45:33
Speaker 2: your head and get away from it. Like it's all
2:45:35
Speaker 2: right there in your pocket, right. You can never escape it.
2:45:38
Speaker 2: You're reachable everywhere. I give Cowra a lot of credit,
2:45:43
Speaker 2: and it tells you something that he had opportunities to
2:45:47
Speaker 2: come back, and I'm good here on the TV set,
2:45:51
Speaker 2: and again, I feel like that will be the template
2:45:54
Speaker 2: for Tomlin. You know, I'd be more surprised if Tomlin
2:45:57
Speaker 2: comes back, and I would be if he does not
2:45:58
Speaker 2: come back.
2:45:59
Speaker 1: I mean, is Dick Vermeil the only coach that actually
2:46:03
Speaker 1: accomplished something bigger after retirement like that? Because vermil hadn't
2:46:08
Speaker 1: gotten a Super Bowl, he got to one as the
2:46:11
Speaker 1: Eagles coach, he retires, he comes back out of retirement
2:46:15
Speaker 1: and then wins one with the Rams. It feels like
2:46:19
Speaker 1: for Meal, like I think about Jimmy Johnson after the Cowboys.
2:46:22
Speaker 1: He goes to the Dolphins. It's not quite the same.
2:46:25
Speaker 1: We're watching Bill Belichick with North Carolina. It's not quite
2:46:28
Speaker 1: the same, right it it it's hard to make. It's
2:46:34
Speaker 1: hard to have a better second act.
2:46:36
Speaker 2: That's the second act with the Dolphins after the Colts.
2:46:40
Speaker 1: True, but the second act became so good people forget
2:46:43
Speaker 1: about the first act with the Colts.
2:46:45
Speaker 2: Right, But you're right, we think of him with the
2:46:47
Speaker 2: Dolphins more than you know. There's streets and whatever else
2:46:50
Speaker 2: named after him, the.
2:46:51
Speaker 1: Don Chule Expressway. Brother, Yeah, that's right. No, you if
2:46:57
Speaker 1: you're in Miami or LA, you want an express don't
2:47:00
Speaker 1: just want the street. Look Tomlin's early massive success, right,
2:47:07
Speaker 1: and that is right. You're in a super Bowl that
2:47:09
Speaker 1: quickly you win one, quickly you go back again. They
2:47:14
Speaker 1: lose to the Packers. But still, I mean that's you know,
2:47:18
Speaker 1: he has an amazing early run, and I do think
2:47:22
Speaker 1: it allows him to survive a lot of nine and
2:47:26
Speaker 1: eight years towards the end of it, you know, because
2:47:29
Speaker 1: you could start to hear the but yeah, you could
2:47:32
Speaker 1: start to hear the chatter over the last last few years.
2:47:35
Speaker 1: And look, they've had a they've had a hard time transition.
2:47:38
Speaker 1: You know, they had a hard time finding a replacement
2:47:41
Speaker 1: for Bradshaw, and arguably you could make the case they
2:47:45
Speaker 1: didn't really find their successor until Roethlisberger, right, you know,
2:47:51
Speaker 1: and then they had a hard time replacing roethl big Ben.
2:47:54
Speaker 2: And to me, that's the kind of story behind the
2:47:57
Speaker 2: story when you look at Tomlin's lack of postseason success, right,
2:48:01
Speaker 2: because he's successful in terms of winning games, winning more
2:48:04
Speaker 2: games than he lost, but you know, they got stuck
2:48:07
Speaker 2: where they just weren't going anywhere once they get to
2:48:10
Speaker 2: the playoffs. But look at the quarterbacks that he had
2:48:13
Speaker 2: post Roethlisberger, you know, and even some of the years
2:48:16
Speaker 2: he had Rothslisberger and Roethlisberger would get hurt and he
2:48:19
Speaker 2: just kind of have to patch things together just to
2:48:21
Speaker 2: keep that winning streak intact. Right, years with winning record
2:48:26
Speaker 2: streak intact. So, you know, turnover at offensive coordinator position,
2:48:31
Speaker 2: I've talked about that, and just the lack of finding
2:48:35
Speaker 2: that next great quarterback, which most NFL teams are are
2:48:39
Speaker 2: princo the Chicago Bears.
2:48:42
Speaker 1: Right talk about it. They're still looking for their first right,
2:48:47
Speaker 1: They're still looking for a four thousand yard quarterback.
2:48:49
Speaker 2: Remember, they haven't had one yet exactly. So you know,
2:48:54
Speaker 2: I think he did a great job establishing the mentality
2:48:59
Speaker 2: and then I identity of that team is using his
2:49:02
Speaker 2: first year on the Money Morning quarterback Peter King spent
2:49:08
Speaker 2: some time with him, and Tomlin was very honest about
2:49:12
Speaker 2: how he basically had to portray a tougher persona than
2:49:17
Speaker 2: he really was, and he had to be a little
2:49:20
Speaker 2: bit meaner because he thought as a young coach coming in,
2:49:22
Speaker 2: he couldn't be soft and he couldn't be perceived a saw.
2:49:25
Speaker 2: So he just kind of adopted this this rougher persona
2:49:31
Speaker 2: than he really was, and I think it worked for him.
2:49:33
Speaker 2: I think it was very strategic and I think it
2:49:35
Speaker 2: was a good strategy.
2:49:36
Speaker 1: Well, look, we've hinted at a few of I guess
2:49:40
Speaker 1: you could call him Wartz if you will. You know,
2:49:45
Speaker 1: every franchise it's been along. You know, they're not quite
2:49:47
Speaker 1: at their hundredth birthday, but they're going to have some
2:49:52
Speaker 1: I would probably say the highest profile sort of and
2:49:56
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a weird story and it gets
2:49:59
Speaker 1: it to the Steelers rivalry, and it's the Chuck Noll
2:50:05
Speaker 1: George Atkinson trial of nineteen seventy six and seventy seven.
2:50:10
Speaker 1: Let me give the quick rundown in nine. In December
2:50:13
Speaker 1: of seventy five, George Atkinson for the Raiders. It's called
2:50:17
Speaker 1: the Second Ice Bowl at the time placed that they're
2:50:20
Speaker 1: playing in three rivers. It's like concrete on the ground.
2:50:22
Speaker 1: And Atkinson hits Swan so hard that Chuck Nole makes
2:50:27
Speaker 1: a comment and he refers to Atkinson without saying by name,
2:50:31
Speaker 1: is sort of there's a criminal element in the NFL,
2:50:34
Speaker 1: and he sort of makes this comment. Well, Atkinson takes
2:50:37
Speaker 1: it personally. He files a three million dollar defamation suit
2:50:41
Speaker 1: against Chuck Nole and in the summer of seventy seven,
2:50:44
Speaker 1: this case goes to trial in federal court. Get this
2:50:48
Speaker 1: in Oakland? Okay, So you're and Nol. You know there
2:50:53
Speaker 1: was some thought, oh, just settle it, do this. Knowle's like,
2:50:57
Speaker 1: screw that I'm fighting and it's a trial. He testifies,
2:51:03
Speaker 1: there's no doubt this is like you're really I mean
2:51:05
Speaker 1: think about this is in the summer. You know, you
2:51:07
Speaker 1: got a training camp, you got all sorts of stuff. Anyway,
2:51:12
Speaker 1: the jury rules in Nole's favor that he's not liable,
2:51:15
Speaker 1: but it does cause all sorts of internal tumult because
2:51:19
Speaker 1: at one point he's on the stand and they under
2:51:26
Speaker 1: cross examination, Noel acknowledges that some Steeler players have delivered
2:51:30
Speaker 1: similar hits to what Atkinson did to Swan and one
2:51:35
Speaker 1: of the names in the line of questions mel Blunt. Well,
2:51:38
Speaker 1: Mel Blunt already ticked off about his contract, and then
2:51:42
Speaker 1: all of a sudden hears his own coach referring to
2:51:44
Speaker 1: him as part of the quote criminal element, and he
2:51:47
Speaker 1: decides to sue Chuck Noel for five million dollars. Now
2:51:51
Speaker 1: he ends up dropping it. He eventually stays on the team.
2:51:54
Speaker 1: The dynasty's intact, they win two more Super Bowls. But man,
2:51:58
Speaker 1: that is one of the strangest stories that Like, again,
2:52:02
Speaker 1: it was one of those I didn't know about it
2:52:04
Speaker 1: going in.
2:52:04
Speaker 2: It didn't you know.
2:52:05
Speaker 1: I knew how violent the NFL was in the seventies,
2:52:07
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that one of the hits actually led
2:52:10
Speaker 1: to an actual trial at one point.
2:52:14
Speaker 2: So my favorite detail on this is that I think
2:52:17
Speaker 2: it only.
2:52:17
Speaker 1: Underscores that rivalry between the Raiders and Steelers.
2:52:20
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Atkinson's attorney in this case was Willie Brown,
2:52:24
Speaker 2: yes mayor of San Francisco, and the speaker of the
2:52:27
Speaker 2: California State Assembly and this legendary wheeler and dealer in
2:52:31
Speaker 2: California politics. But he was the mayor. Although he lost,
2:52:36
Speaker 2: he was the attorney here. He lost the case. The
2:52:38
Speaker 2: jury deliberated for four hours. They ruled in favor of Noel,
2:52:41
Speaker 2: but it cost him, or certainly hurt set back his
2:52:44
Speaker 2: relationship with.
2:52:45
Speaker 1: Let me tell you how good of a politician WILLI
2:52:47
Speaker 1: Brown was. He's the Democratic Speaker of the California Assembly.
2:52:52
Speaker 1: Republicans win a majority, so you would think he's no
2:52:56
Speaker 1: longer Speaker of the California Assembly. Guess who ends up
2:52:59
Speaker 1: staying Speaker of the California Assembly. That's how good Willy
2:53:02
Speaker 1: Brown was as a politician. Man, it didn't matter what
2:53:05
Speaker 1: party was in charge. He was going to lead it.
2:53:07
Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, but I digress.
2:53:09
Speaker 2: I talk Eagle into giving it his wings.
2:53:11
Speaker 1: Oh. I think Willy Brown is one of the five
2:53:14
Speaker 1: most impressive politicians of the twentieth century.
2:53:18
Speaker 2: Certainly you look at it a great Hacket election as well,
2:53:20
Speaker 2: just though, but.
2:53:21
Speaker 1: He was just just that effective. So that's a ward.
2:53:25
Speaker 1: We got. The drug use of the seventies, it's hard
2:53:27
Speaker 1: to talk about the Steelers. Mike Webster. You know, steroids
2:53:32
Speaker 1: were an open secret and the drug culture of just
2:53:35
Speaker 1: the NFL was an open secret back then. My goodness
2:53:37
Speaker 1: that we get the movie in book North Darless forty,
2:53:40
Speaker 1: which was basically a confessional.
2:53:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking confessionals. Offensive guard Steve Corson, who played
2:53:50
Speaker 2: for the Steelers, confessed in Sports Illustrated in nineteen eighty
2:53:53
Speaker 2: five right he'd used steroids. He said he walked out
2:53:56
Speaker 2: of a pharmacy well wearing his Super Bowl ring with
2:53:58
Speaker 2: the bag full of steroids. Uh. There was an offensive
2:54:02
Speaker 2: tackle on Dallas who said he started using steroids in
2:54:07
Speaker 2: the late seventies because he saw how muscular the Steelers
2:54:09
Speaker 2: offensive linemen were. And so this defensive tackle, excuse me,
2:54:14
Speaker 2: said that, you know, he felt like he had used
2:54:16
Speaker 2: stories to keep up with the Steelers because the Steelers,
2:54:19
Speaker 2: he said, we're using them, and you know, they were
2:54:22
Speaker 2: the team to beat.
2:54:23
Speaker 1: And then of course there's Roethlisberger, and in some ways,
2:54:29
Speaker 1: I don't know if that I don't know if that's
2:54:32
Speaker 1: ever been fully repaired, with the franchise, repaired, with the
2:54:36
Speaker 1: fan base repaired. I feel like to this day, Roethlisberger,
2:54:40
Speaker 1: who was who was credibly accused of sexual assault. It's
2:54:45
Speaker 1: never really it's never really healed on that one.
2:54:48
Speaker 2: I feel the reason why is because it was never
2:54:51
Speaker 2: fully adjudicated. Right, it's not like he was there were
2:54:55
Speaker 2: no criminal charges brought up, you know, the NFL with
2:54:58
Speaker 2: a lower burdon of proof and not beholden to you know,
2:55:04
Speaker 2: the court of law, but just inference in vibes and optics,
2:55:08
Speaker 2: et cetera. Uh. They suspended Roethlisberger for six games for
2:55:13
Speaker 2: an incident that took place in a bar in which
2:55:19
Speaker 2: a woman said accused him of sexual assault in the
2:55:23
Speaker 2: in the bathroom of bar. Also like it was like
2:55:27
Speaker 2: a college bar, and Roethlisberger has been in the league
2:55:30
Speaker 2: for a few years at the time. Just you know,
2:55:31
Speaker 2: just the just the unsavory nature of where he was
2:55:35
Speaker 2: the most generous thing you could call it. Yeah, yeah,
2:55:39
Speaker 2: bad judgment. Right, So, you know, the NFL thought there
2:55:43
Speaker 2: was something there, but it it would be easier if
2:55:48
Speaker 2: we could definitively say, you know, and if there was
2:55:52
Speaker 2: something in the court.
2:55:53
Speaker 1: Of law, rather than right, he's not been he's not.
2:55:56
Speaker 1: His name's not cleared, nor is it fully nonerratedly right
2:56:02
Speaker 1: in either direction. Right, we did. We don't have we
2:56:05
Speaker 1: don't have finality there and it kind of hangs over
2:56:08
Speaker 1: his head a little bit so.
2:56:11
Speaker 2: And also like he's he's been kind of critical of
2:56:14
Speaker 2: the franchise is certainly Tomlin lately, so you know.
2:56:18
Speaker 1: Which tells me that his relationship with the Rooneyes is
2:56:20
Speaker 1: probably not so good, because my guess is, you don't
2:56:23
Speaker 1: publicly criticize if you're if you're in a in a
2:56:27
Speaker 1: you know, and look, he should be pretty loyal to
2:56:29
Speaker 1: the Rooneyes because you know, the Rooneys took a gamble
2:56:33
Speaker 1: and took them back, not everybody thought they would, so.
2:56:37
Speaker 2: They were able to mend the franchise quarterback, the all
2:56:40
Speaker 2: time franchise quarterback, and that relationship with Bradshaw. But you know,
2:56:44
Speaker 2: as we stand now, things aren't necessarily you know, great
2:56:49
Speaker 2: and comfortable and easy with the most recent quarterback to
2:56:53
Speaker 2: win the Super Bowl for them.
2:56:54
Speaker 1: If well, you think Roethlisberger eventually gets in the Hall
2:57:01
Speaker 1: of Fame or do you think this makes it harder?
2:57:05
Speaker 2: He was a really great quarterback and the problem is
2:57:08
Speaker 2: there was got.
2:57:09
Speaker 1: Two rings to three.
2:57:10
Speaker 2: He's got two, but you know there's Brady and the
2:57:14
Speaker 2: other guy. I think that's got too and you know
2:57:15
Speaker 2: he has a last minute touchdown drive in the Super Bowl.
2:57:18
Speaker 2: But the problem is that era it was it was Brady,
2:57:21
Speaker 2: Yeah Manning. You know there were some great ones like
2:57:24
Speaker 2: I would put well, he was always Donna, even though
2:57:27
Speaker 2: he didn't win the Super Bowls. But I mean that
2:57:29
Speaker 2: was a really great quarterback that hasn't gotten his due.
2:57:32
Speaker 2: So like there's this whole group that was below the
2:57:35
Speaker 2: Brady Manning barbs, et cetera.
2:57:38
Speaker 1: Philip Rivers. It's going to be right, We're gonna have
2:57:41
Speaker 1: this conversation about Phil Rivers as well, right on that front.
2:57:45
Speaker 1: But Roethlisberger and Eli Manning have two rings mean something.
2:57:50
Speaker 2: I think, Well, so far it hasn't been enough for
2:57:53
Speaker 2: Eli Manning. Yeah, we'll see.
2:57:55
Speaker 1: Well, like I said, Jim Plunkett has two and and
2:57:57
Speaker 1: that hasn't been enough to get him in because because
2:57:59
Speaker 1: he's got that uneven regular season. All Right, it's the
2:58:03
Speaker 1: best part to walk off here. It's our mount Rushmore.
2:58:07
Speaker 1: This is a tough one because I've got more than
2:58:09
Speaker 1: four candidates, only four.
2:58:13
Speaker 2: I know, I'm gonna guess this is on that mountain, right,
2:58:17
Speaker 2: there's a ton, right, you could just do one well
2:58:20
Speaker 2: from that seventy four drafts, he'd be pretty good shape.
2:58:25
Speaker 1: I think you have to put a rooneye on there?
2:58:27
Speaker 1: But which one I'm gonna put Dan? Not Art on mine?
2:58:36
Speaker 1: Because that's the thing. You can have a debate about
2:58:38
Speaker 1: which Rooney you put on, but I there's only I'm
2:58:40
Speaker 1: only gonna put one Rooney on. So I'm putting Dan
2:58:42
Speaker 1: Rooney on. Here's my first one?
2:58:44
Speaker 2: All right, one Rooney? Who else?
2:58:47
Speaker 1: It's four super bowls? You have to put Chuck Nole
2:58:50
Speaker 1: like it's to me, that's a that's a no brainer.
2:58:53
Speaker 2: So that's two quarterback who wins for super Bowls.
2:58:58
Speaker 1: And he's arguably one of the most fam miss not
2:59:01
Speaker 1: you know, faces of this. I was just going to say,
2:59:05
Speaker 1: you know, only Peyton Manning does more commercials right than TB.
2:59:10
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, there's Bradshaw. That's three. I mean,
2:59:13
Speaker 1: this is you know, I think I know where I'm
2:59:15
Speaker 1: going to go with my fourth. By the way, are
2:59:17
Speaker 1: all three of those on yours or at least all
2:59:19
Speaker 1: three of those names?
2:59:22
Speaker 2: Two?
2:59:24
Speaker 1: Okay, My fourth is going to be Joe Green because
2:59:27
Speaker 1: of because he was first, right, he was the first,
2:59:32
Speaker 1: He was the anchor, he was the guy, he kept
2:59:35
Speaker 1: the team together when it could have been split with
2:59:38
Speaker 1: the quarterback controversy. He's iconic, the ad. You know, there's
2:59:45
Speaker 1: the there's the off. So my four and the only
2:59:49
Speaker 1: thing I'm concerned about is that it's all from one era.
2:59:52
Speaker 1: But it's Dan Rooney, Chuck Noll, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Green.
2:59:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one arrow, but it's a hell of you know,
3:00:00
Speaker 2: and it's the era that defines the Steelers like to
3:00:03
Speaker 2: this day. It all goes back to that era, right,
3:00:06
Speaker 2: So I don't think you can go wrong to me.
3:00:09
Speaker 2: It almost has to be. I think every Steeler on
3:00:12
Speaker 2: the Mount Rushmore has to be connected to that era
3:00:15
Speaker 2: in some way. So we agree on three of the four.
3:00:18
Speaker 2: I have Chuck Noll, I've got Bradshaw, I've got me
3:00:21
Speaker 2: Joe Green. The defense has to be represented in there's
3:00:24
Speaker 2: some hit, right And if there were fewer Roonies involved,
3:00:29
Speaker 2: I could put one Rooney. So could That's it. So
3:00:32
Speaker 2: like with the Lakers, Jerry Buss kind of a singular,
3:00:36
Speaker 2: you know, the greatest owner I think he's easy to
3:00:38
Speaker 2: put on that franchise is Mount Rushmore. But because some
3:00:43
Speaker 2: of it's hard and some of it's Dan and and
3:00:46
Speaker 2: you kind of split the Rooney vote a little bit there.
3:00:49
Speaker 2: So that allowed in my mind for lyn Swan to
3:00:52
Speaker 2: sneak in. And just like there were some questions about
3:00:55
Speaker 2: his Hall of Fame legitimacy, the numbers on Lyncewan aren't
3:00:59
Speaker 2: that great? Kind of had to see it right, the
3:01:02
Speaker 2: grace of it, you know. So this tough physical team,
3:01:05
Speaker 2: but he brings a different element, this graceful element, acrobatic element.
3:01:09
Speaker 2: The highlight plays and he was inspirational. And so this
3:01:13
Speaker 2: is nine year old me, eight year old me talking here.
3:01:17
Speaker 2: My inner child is coming out when I nominate linz
3:01:19
Speaker 2: one and have him as my fourth member of the
3:01:22
Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore. But it's my Mount Rushmore and that's right.
3:01:27
Speaker 2: He meets of any of the Steelers to me, and
3:01:31
Speaker 2: so he stays on.
3:01:33
Speaker 1: Well, I know the biggest pushback we may get is
3:01:36
Speaker 1: from Franco's army.
3:01:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if we're going to talk about the
3:01:41
Speaker 2: iconic moment or franchise is the immaculate reception, how could
3:01:44
Speaker 2: you not have him on there? Right?
3:01:46
Speaker 1: Or how about a name that we have not mentioned
3:01:48
Speaker 1: enough in this and I will confess to it. It's
3:01:52
Speaker 1: the bus right, It's Jerome bettis right, you could he's
3:01:58
Speaker 1: he's you know when you when you had the conversation
3:02:01
Speaker 1: of greatest running back of all time in the in
3:02:03
Speaker 1: the franchise, it's a much closer call between Franco and
3:02:07
Speaker 1: Bettest than you fully realize.
3:02:09
Speaker 2: Jack Hammer or Jack Lambert, who kind of personified the Steelers.
3:02:12
Speaker 2: So there's that right, nineteen seventies Sportssoctrated cover the Man
3:02:15
Speaker 2: of Steeling Lambert in his helmet with the missing teeth,
3:02:18
Speaker 2: just looking like a tough guy.
3:02:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, he sort of looks like right, he looks like
3:02:21
Speaker 1: right out of the movie The Longest Yard.
3:02:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, he looks like a Pittsburgh Steeler, you know,
3:02:26
Speaker 2: or a steel worker, and so it's tough to leave
3:02:30
Speaker 2: him out. But okay, he had his moment there.
3:02:33
Speaker 1: Again, Hey, Rocky Blyer got a movie, right, you know,
3:02:38
Speaker 1: although there's a there's a piece of him that is
3:02:40
Speaker 1: so that it is there's iconic and just the fact
3:02:43
Speaker 1: that it's a Vietnam veteran and he comes in and
3:02:46
Speaker 1: and but you know, it's you know what, the more
3:02:50
Speaker 1: we talk about this, the more you realize, Man, I
3:02:55
Speaker 1: had a harder time with this mount rushmore actually than
3:02:57
Speaker 1: I did with the Dodgers and you would. It's sort
3:03:01
Speaker 1: of that because there's something about these Steelers that they're
3:03:04
Speaker 1: so connected. Yeah, you know, one thing about the Steelers
3:03:07
Speaker 1: is you don't have somebody just for a year or
3:03:09
Speaker 1: two that shows up and it becomes iconic. Right when
3:03:12
Speaker 1: you become a Steeler and you're great, it feels like
3:03:15
Speaker 1: you're there for life.
3:03:16
Speaker 2: And you wish it was more of a connection afterward
3:03:20
Speaker 2: with all of them together. Right, So you know, the
3:03:23
Speaker 2: second half of that Palm Rance book is just about
3:03:27
Speaker 2: how they did stay connected and the ways that they
3:03:30
Speaker 2: interacted after the glory days were over. But it didn't
3:03:34
Speaker 2: necessarily always have them coming back to Pittsburgh. And you
3:03:38
Speaker 2: know the tragedy with Frank co O Harris. So that's
3:03:40
Speaker 2: one thing about this franchise. For all the great players,
3:03:43
Speaker 2: they're really stingy with retiring the numbers. They will to
3:03:46
Speaker 2: retire three numbers, and one of them, one of the
3:03:49
Speaker 2: great tragedies was the week they were about to retire
3:03:53
Speaker 2: Frank co Harris's number. Finally he passes away that week.
3:03:57
Speaker 1: Now he knows it's going to happen, So he did
3:03:59
Speaker 1: diego knowing his number was being retired, but he deal.
3:04:03
Speaker 2: You didn't get to go on the field and get
3:04:05
Speaker 2: all the adulation one last time and see the number,
3:04:07
Speaker 2: you know, raised up there or whatever they were going
3:04:10
Speaker 2: to do it unveiled. So just a great tragedy that
3:04:13
Speaker 2: it felt like it was so long overdue, and then
3:04:16
Speaker 2: when it finally happened, he dies just days before it
3:04:21
Speaker 2: was gonna It was the day the moment was at hand. So,
3:04:27
Speaker 2: you know, for a surprising amount of tragedy mixed in
3:04:30
Speaker 2: with this Steelers story of so much success.
3:04:33
Speaker 1: It is, but there is I I the thing that
3:04:37
Speaker 1: I really have developed a more a fondness for and
3:04:40
Speaker 1: I always kind of had it, but now I get it.
3:04:42
Speaker 1: Get it is why the team is so beloved and
3:04:47
Speaker 1: why it's so and it's connection with the city. And
3:04:50
Speaker 1: you know, I've always been you know, as a kid,
3:04:53
Speaker 1: I used to imitate Willie Stargel's batting stance.
3:04:56
Speaker 2: That's thought it was the coolest.
3:04:57
Speaker 1: Thing, the bat spin. I mean, I tried to learn
3:04:59
Speaker 1: to become I'm a switch hitter, simply so.
3:05:01
Speaker 2: I said, the pirate hats with the stars of stars
3:05:03
Speaker 2: on him. You could buy those stars that give out
3:05:05
Speaker 2: to the star of the game.
3:05:07
Speaker 1: I just really Stargell man, I thought he was he.
3:05:10
Speaker 1: I just thought he was the coolest, coolest cat going.
3:05:12
Speaker 1: And there's something about the connection with the community with
3:05:15
Speaker 1: the Steelers that it is as tight is the Packers,
3:05:20
Speaker 1: and that you know, which I've really you know, know
3:05:22
Speaker 1: a lot about and it That's the thing I just
3:05:25
Speaker 1: take away here is just what an incredible fan base
3:05:29
Speaker 1: and ultimately I mean to be to really suck up
3:05:33
Speaker 1: you could you could make a case that that there's
3:05:35
Speaker 1: a spot on a Mount Rushmore for the Terrible Towel.
3:05:40
Speaker 3: The Terrible Tower or Myron copron cope too double Yeah,
3:05:48
Speaker 3: all right, my friend, you ready to go to San
3:05:51
Speaker 3: Francisco and Philadelphia for our next.
3:05:54
Speaker 2: One in Oakland, don't leave out Oakland.
3:05:56
Speaker 1: That's right. One franchise that we'll touch Helia, Oakland and
3:06:01
Speaker 1: San Francisco, and we're gonna go We're gonna go indoors.
3:06:07
Speaker 1: We've been outdoors for our first two franchises, Dodgers, Steelers.
3:06:10
Speaker 1: We're going to go indoors for a third one.
3:06:12
Speaker 2: We're going to make a big splash with the Warriors.
3:06:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, have one more Steelers episode where we'll sort
3:06:19
Speaker 1: of respond to your questions. We'll do some corrections because
3:06:24
Speaker 1: we know we might have made a mistake or two.
3:06:26
Speaker 1: We want to be able to correct the record there,
3:06:28
Speaker 1: and we'll have an eye somebody to help tell some
3:06:30
Speaker 1: stories of the iconic Pittsburgh Steelers.
3:06:34
Speaker 2: So send your questions and comments, follow us on social
3:06:37
Speaker 2: media at Dynastic Pod at Dynastic Pod on all your
3:06:42
Speaker 2: favorite social media channels. We'll get to those the next
3:06:46
Speaker 2: time out. We want to thank you so much for
3:06:48
Speaker 2: sticking with us and helping us to grow this podcast,
3:06:51
Speaker 2: and we'll see you next time.
3:06:53
Speaker 1: Like and subscribe, Like and subscribe. Thank you.