Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1175: Solo Adventures for Women with Lisa Michelle

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Ep. 1175: Solo Adventures for Women with Lisa Michelle · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk with adventures from around the globe to give you the inspiration you need to get started in the outdoors or keep moving if you're already there.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Now here's your host, Kurt Lindville.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Nature inspires.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It can provide us with the space we need to process, to discover, to feel.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of what this episode is about, in addition to the idea of women solo adventuring.
0:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a lot to do with discovery, the discovery that nature allows, and it was a joy to talk with Lisa about her books and her experiences in nature and all that.
0:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that perhaps the takeaway from this one really is that nature inspires nature heals and on some level I think we're made for it.
1:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's our home.
1:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's where we came from.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks Lisa for sharing your heart and for sharing amazing stories about the impacts that nature can have.
1:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi friends, welcome to the Adventure Sports podcast today.
1:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited about this interview because Lisa Michelle is an adventurer, but she uses nature and experiences that she has a nature and lessons learned from nature to inform her writing.
1:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's written both fiction and non-fiction.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a best-selling psychological thriller author, which is fantastic, but she's also written a book called True Nature,
1:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But she is a snowboarder, she likes fly-fishing, long-solo hikes, and here's something interesting that we're going to dive into.
1:56
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants to talk about the value of women doing solo adventure, and that that holds some special magic, and I want to know what that is.
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So Lisa, welcome to the Adventures Sports Podcast.
2:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Kurt.
2:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for having me, and I look forward to our conversation.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we hit record here, we got started and we should hit record way before we did, because we're having so much fun, and that's what's so fun about adventure, I think, is that we already have things in common, from the get go, I also wrote a book, my sister is an author, you're an author, I love interviewing authors because you guys know how to talk, that is really a great thing.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, let's get the backstory, where are you now?
2:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I am at my little office slash guest bedroom in just below Kirkwood, California outside of Tahoe.
2:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
2:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Outside of Tahoe.
2:50
[SPEAKER_03]: He's south-east, exactly the opposite, yes, of Clarkson.
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Just the opposite from truckie.
2:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what an amazing place.
2:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's usually pretty good this time of year, but we're still waiting for snow.
3:02
[SPEAKER_03]: it's been pretty slow here.
3:04
[SPEAKER_03]: We've we've got nothing.
3:05
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I haven't even been snowboarding yet this year.
3:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And Facebook keeps reminding me through the memories.
3:11
[SPEAKER_03]: How much snow we've had in the previous years and it was just amazing.
3:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, you wouldn't take it for granted anymore.
3:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Tahoe is known for some of the biggest snowfalls in snow seasons of any resort.
3:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's amazing.
3:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I've not been up yet.
3:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I've not been the press abute as our local mountain and I've not been up yet.
3:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They're open and you know, they have several runs open and that kind of stuff.
3:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But right now it's a lot of machines know and there's some natural snow too, but it's early in the season.
3:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I get a little spoiled, Lisa, to be honest.
3:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think of ski season as fair to wear.
3:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's becoming that for me too.
3:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I just get so anxious, you know, you know, all my stuff out and this year I bought a new board with some bookmoney.
3:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just wanted to get it out, but then again, I don't want to get it out too early and hit all the rocks and
4:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I'm I'm ready.
4:04
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so ready.
4:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I may come to Colorado that doesn't happen soon.
4:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, well, I think Colorado is kind of off to an average start this year.
4:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had we've had better early season years.
4:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had worse early season years.
4:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's game on.
4:19
[SPEAKER_01]: People are enjoying themselves already.
4:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I see I see all the fun stuff going on over there and the
4:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, avalanches are crazy in our valley, but they haven't been this season yet, but it does happen.
4:34
[SPEAKER_01]: You use what you learn from nature to inform your books.
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to dive in right there.
4:42
[SPEAKER_01]: How has adventure and connecting with nature helped you as an author?
4:47
[SPEAKER_03]: So many ways.
4:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Just getting from the most minute detail.
4:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And using senses, you're an author, you understand the senses, the feeling that you get in being a nature.
5:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And it also, my thrillers always have some sort of outdoor adventure type of situation, whether it's intended or not.
5:09
[SPEAKER_03]: They end up there somehow.
5:11
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that might be a subconscious thing, but you know, I started out years ago freelancing in round Tahoe, writing all the outdoor adventure stuff.
5:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And we weren't allowed to, you know, they just wanted the facts only.
5:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
5:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, do this.
5:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fun.
5:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's where it's at.
5:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it was really great to revisit some of those hidden gems and be able to figure out by the writing process, how much each of those places in nature changed my life.
5:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Overall, so many ways from the simplest thing like confidence, becoming confident, it's a process, doesn't just happen, or doesn't.
5:52
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an absolute intended process.
5:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And that informs everything, that informs your writing, that it helped with having enough confidence to go try something completely different.
6:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Nothing to do with being outdoors or in nature or adventure, but being brave enough to do just simplest everyday things or the most difficult everyday type of things that you don't want to do, but you're like, oh, why did this other thing and I can do this?
6:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've heard that many times I couldn't agree more, that's what challenging ourselves is about, despite it's at a lot of finding out what we are capable of doing, and that enlarges our lives.
6:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think for women, I obviously cannot speak for all women myself, quite a few of my friends and some of my family, just pushing yourself, you know, it's all relative.
6:48
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're the type of person that hasn't been outdoors a lot, that you feel somehow that pull that you want to try something, whether you go for a bike ride, a hike, go fly fishing, go skiing, take a lesson.
7:01
[SPEAKER_03]: to the more extreme type of adventures, right?
7:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all subjective, and it all builds confidence.
7:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Even in the failure, listening to your epic bill podcast, even in the failures, man.
7:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the failures even make it better when you finally do accomplish what it is you've said out, it makes it that much sweeter.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: you know what I loved about epic bill is that he would call I didn't finish the two hundred sixty five mile race so I failed I'm like no you didn't you stopped at a mile two hundred or something you know it's like a wow I mean how did you not crawl or something he so yes on so much strength inner strength you know and mental fortitude just come on well but you I think everybody finds a little bit more of that fortitude when they go out and try things.
7:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
7:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And you never know what you're capable of doing.
7:56
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
7:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes that's when you're pushed to your limits, that is when you find out what you are capable of doing.
8:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Nothing to do with any of the adventures in the book, but I did the ink of trail years ago in Peru and the night before I left, I got the bad stomach.
8:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you can only imagine how terrible hiking, you know, I cannot remember all the elevation game, but it's quite difficult and you're carrying your own stuff.
8:25
[SPEAKER_03]: with the bad stomach and I thought, you have a choice before you start to either fail or go because once you're in you're in, you know, in my friend was like if you want to go home you I understand it's okay and I had spent all my money.
8:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I took everything out of my savings to do this trip and I thought if I die on this trail I die on this trail because I am not wasting.
8:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was
8:50
[SPEAKER_03]: back then it was probably close to $4,000 which that was a lot of money for me back then especially and I remember just thinking there's no way I can do this but one step out of time, one step out of time and one bathroom break at a time.
9:07
[SPEAKER_03]: That sounds rough.
9:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean you got to understand it was the best of times it was the worst of times but
9:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Once I was done, I thought, oh my God, I just hiked the ink and trail with the bad stomach.
9:19
[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard enough with the good stomach, and to be able to do that, I look back and I mean, I guarantee you I felt like I could do anything.
9:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's amazing.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive into the subject of women solo adventures.
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that piggybacks off of this a little bit.
9:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Why solo?
9:39
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I thought about this a lot because I've done a lot of solo and I've done a lot of hiking or adventure type stuff travel with a friend or friends.
9:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I tend to lean more towards solo.
9:54
[SPEAKER_03]: The psychological aspect of going with friends of being more sociable is probably everyone's first choice, but sometimes it just comes down to logistics.
10:04
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't get someone to go with you.
10:06
[SPEAKER_03]: They can't take time off work or whatever reason.
10:10
[SPEAKER_03]: You end up saying, okay, I'm just going to go.
10:12
[SPEAKER_03]: And then...
10:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And for me, I get so much more out of it.
10:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's more your, when you're alone, you're so in tune with what's going on around you, be it nature, be it interaction with just a random person that you meet on the trail.
10:29
[SPEAKER_03]: When you're with think of your hiking adventures or any sort of adventure,
10:33
[SPEAKER_03]: you run into someone when you're a little both alone, you tend to gravitate towards each other.
10:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, who hasn't on those ski lift made those five minute best friends?
10:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you start spewing things.
10:46
[SPEAKER_03]: You would never tell a stranger, but you start telling these people things that you're going, oh my god, why did I just say that?
10:54
[SPEAKER_03]: But
10:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it just opens you up.
10:58
[SPEAKER_03]: You feel more vulnerable, and I think people sense that I know I've done some surf travel alone, which at times can be really scary, especially when you're out there at a surf break by yourself.
11:09
[SPEAKER_03]: You can feel either like, oh, this is...
11:12
[SPEAKER_03]: So amazing, I'm out here in the ocean by myself, or there's times my mind has switched to, oh my God, I'm in the ocean out here by myself.
11:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
11:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know, this doesn't feel good.
11:24
[SPEAKER_03]: For whatever reason, I think I'm gonna paddle in.
11:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, some things making me really uncomfortable.
11:30
[SPEAKER_03]: But that being said, it's how you approach it.
11:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it just gives women or men, even whoever,
11:42
[SPEAKER_03]: that they are capable of taking care of themselves.
11:46
[SPEAKER_03]: being able to just pick up and go somewhere and not have to wait for everyone else's schedule feels freeing.
11:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's time for you to your brain, I think, to just, it's almost like a form of meditation.
11:59
[SPEAKER_03]: If anybody's done some long distance hikes, they know exactly, solo.
12:04
[SPEAKER_03]: They know exactly because you're not that, you're not having that back in fourth conversation.
12:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Or you're not trying to think of something to say to fill the awkward silence.
12:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you've read the book, is my friend really pissed at me right now.
12:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
12:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You're in your own head or your out of your own head.
12:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just to me it's very spiritual.
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's kind of crazy.
12:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's stick with a solo for just a second.
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about being a female adventure or solo as well.
12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm an extrovert and solo adventure has been actually a big part of my life.
12:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But never by choice.
12:45
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, it was always well.
12:46
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no one else that'll go, so I'm just going.
12:48
[SPEAKER_01]: right because I don't I don't seek the alone time and I have friends who do seek the alone time they they feed on it they thrive with it they love it and for me when i'm out there and something amazing happens i'm like oh there's no one to share it with
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's just the way my mind works.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I spend all my time thinking about my kids at home or my wife at home and saying oh man I wish they were here.
13:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh I do that too.
13:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean don't get me wrong.
13:14
[SPEAKER_03]: There's that I do think that exact thing for sure.
13:17
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's when I'm like filming everything or taking pictures of everything.
13:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I worked as a freelance writer for a lot of years about outdoor adventure travel, and so I'm very used to taking notes as I'm filming, what I'm seeing, what I'm smelling, what I'm hearing, just all the details, I remember to include, but you get my narration along with the filming, but I do, I understand, you know, there's both sides of it, there's pros and cons.
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Lisa, what I started doing, I actually made a YouTube channel.
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I call it Gunny Moto.
13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason is, because I'm writing my motorcycle around Gunnison County in the Colorado Rockies here.
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have over 3,000 miles of off-road riding.
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's crazy.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're strung together all of the twin track, you know, off-road twin track in Gunnison County, it would go coast to coast across America.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you think about that.
14:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's mind blowing.
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:12
[SPEAKER_01]: A few people know that, but I thought, well, I'm going to go explore it, I want to see all that.
14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I started just taking a GoPro with me so that I could share it if people were interested, no intention of turning it into anything.
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the reason I bring it up.
14:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If I take the GoPro, I feel like all my friends are with me.
14:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ramble on and people probably hate listening to me because I'm just talking about this, talking about that.
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, look at this.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: or there's this geology or there's this history or there's, you know, this philosophical.
14:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like I've taken everyone with me on the ride and when I leave the GoPro at home, I feel completely alone and I'm alone in both cases.
14:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
14:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
14:52
[SPEAKER_03]: That there is that aspect of it for sure because I can see, you know, I can't wait to get home and show this to my grandson.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you'll want to height 15 miles.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's, it's very interesting to me.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, here's something that I'm just going to say it out loud and on purpose.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, people when we talk about women and adventure, especially solo adventure.
15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: We always kind of dance around the subject because you don't want to say, well, women alone, that's something.
15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I try hard never to say that because I believe in the empowerment of telling everybody, irregardless of their gender or whatever, that they can do it, that they can go, that can enjoy it, they can,
15:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I never want to be the person who says, oh, women shouldn't travel alone, for instance.
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a ridiculous mindset.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm going to throw it out there, so it's on the table.
15:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Some women say that.
15:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, absolutely.
15:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's a fact.
15:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, let's not dance around it.
15:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It is an absolute fact.
15:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Men, can I be blunt?
15:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Men don't have to worry about typically men don't have to worry about being assaulted, raped.
16:00
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's a real concern.
16:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I have been in one situation.
16:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that should not be enough of a reason for you to not go.
16:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Unless you're dealing with some former abuse or something where you might need a little more security, you should go with a friend, you shouldn't go alone, especially, you know, for a while.
16:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Or minus the national parks, I did one hike.
16:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was only two nights.
16:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you heard of the lost coast in California?
16:32
[SPEAKER_03]: It's up in Northern California, Humbna County.
16:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a very beautiful place, but it's a very sketchy place, which I didn't realize until I had gotten up there and started hearing the horror stories.
16:43
[SPEAKER_03]: But I did, I took a gun with me, a very small little gun, and now that will start the pot, you know, people who like that.
16:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's more controversial than women going alone, whether and I'll tell you what, I had a very uncomfortable situation with three gentlemen, and I was grateful to have that good.
17:03
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can't predict the future, but you can at least be somewhat prepared, whether it be bear spray, pepper spray, can no longer take bear spray in you somebody, which I find absolutely incredibly ridiculous, but... Yeah.
17:23
[SPEAKER_03]: because that was more of my go-to not for the bears, you know, I'd have never had a I have lots of bear experience but never been a problem other than, you know, a few face-licking bears and a very tight trail situation, but it's just typically I think most the time for for myself and people that I have taken out
17:46
[SPEAKER_03]: and that end up doing solo stuff, women especially.
17:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It is absolutely a process and it is to be expected to be scared, but it shouldn't be enough to stop you.
17:58
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, I think you're, you know, if you do this statistics, it's like you're probably safer out there alone in the wilderness than you are walking across the parking lot at Walmart.
18:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Or heck nowadays, even just, you know, going, watch the news.
18:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the crazy thing is I'm glad you brought up the news.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone knows this, but the news focuses on if it bleeds it reads, you know, they, they just want to scare people and the world's not like that.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If all, if you're only window to the world, it's what the nightly news is giving you, then you need a new window.
18:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to be blunt.
18:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all lies.
18:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, bad things do happen, but they're rare.
18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: and it doesn't mean it's going to happen to you and I have interviewed Lisa so many solo backpackers who are women motorcycle travelers have been around the world as women one of our very first interviews 10 years ago was Yolanda Rust who did a solo trip around Africa and I just find it so inspiring and empowering and I want everyone to know just exactly what you said caution is warranted but don't let us stop you.
19:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, I just ramble the little bit about it, but yes, that's the bottom line.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's such a wonderful thing when people get past the stereotypes and they follow the heart.
19:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and if you're a dude and you see a woman out there out there so or how you just say hey how's it going please don't tell her What are you doing out here all by yourself?
19:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't be that guy.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Well good on you for doing it and you you already mentioned that by going solo you become more aware of your environment on some level Let's distract it maybe Right
19:46
[SPEAKER_01]: How is that?
19:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I've already asked this question a little bit, and how did that inform your books?
19:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're right, psychological thrillers, and you said they always end up in the woods somehow.
19:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But how do you use that in your writing?
19:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, experience is everything, right?
20:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you come across more like an authority and you're writing and as a narrator in your own work.
20:09
[SPEAKER_03]: When readers are following along, it just adds like the little, you know all the little details, you know the smell of the sage and you are able to describe that smell
20:20
[SPEAKER_03]: on a warming spring day, you know, whatever it is, um, sure, that's in a many wonderful scent of sage.
20:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to look it up.
20:30
[SPEAKER_03]: You can speak from experience.
20:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that those details add so much to the bigger picture and authenticity.
20:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it makes it that much more real for the reader as an experience.
20:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to flip it.
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: How much do you think writing about it has improved the experience that you have in nature?
20:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's a great question.
20:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I have never been asked that, but it's a wonderful question because
21:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't thought about it, and you're absolutely right.
21:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It makes me, I'm writing in my head sometime.
21:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking, I will use my phone, I have a voice app on my phone, and I will start talking when something grabs my attention that I think is worthy that I'll want to use later in my work.
21:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I will talk it through, like, you know, this smells like this, or this is what I'm seeing, but this is how it's making me feel right now.
21:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I take more note, you know, and I'm not afraid to slow down now.
21:38
[SPEAKER_03]: That's took me a lot of years.
21:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Is I don't worry so much about hurrying up and getting there.
21:45
[SPEAKER_03]: The end goal, you know, whether it be a hike or whatever it is, a paddle.
21:50
[SPEAKER_03]: If that looks like a great spot to fish,
21:54
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to sit there for an hour or two, tie my fly on, and take a few swings at it.
22:01
[SPEAKER_03]: See what happens, and it makes me think.
22:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I was in use Semedy this summer and got quite a waste from camp like I was camping and hiked down into a canyon about four or five miles.
22:15
[SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly all down and I was coming back up and it opened up hailing, storming like I've never seen.
22:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Huge granite.
22:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So you've got water just rushing.
22:26
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no obvious trail.
22:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm by myself and I'm getting a little freaked out.
22:33
[SPEAKER_03]: This is, you know, process.
22:35
[SPEAKER_03]: This is one mistake after the next is how bad things end up happening.
22:40
[SPEAKER_03]: It usually doesn't just happen randomly.
22:42
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a series of
22:44
[SPEAKER_03]: misfortune at events right and I start thinking about this like this is going to make hopefully this makes an interesting story later on at some point so take a lot of mental notes and see you know how's it feel to be scared I hope when I get back to camp if I get back to camp my tent hasn't washed away my sleeping bag may be completely soaked
23:08
[SPEAKER_03]: It's getting late.
23:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I kind of thought of start writing the story in my head.
23:12
[SPEAKER_03]: This scenario just kind of scary sometimes.
23:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I interviewed Roy Ginsberg several weeks back and we had such a fun time talking about it, but it came up that we journal when we travel.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just really did a great eloquent job of explaining how valuable that is.
23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it helps to catalogue the memories, store them a little bit, help you to remember them.
23:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to collect, yeah, I like to collect memories like treasures and we forget so much.
23:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.
23:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, too, like, with those journals, like you're talking, I used to journal all the time.
23:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Now I do more of just talking into my phone.
23:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I do usually have some sort of journal or take notes on my phone.
24:01
[SPEAKER_03]: But I have stacks of half-filled journals, you know, mostly little tiny ones that can go in your backpack with you somewhere.
24:09
[SPEAKER_03]: But I always, like you said, you can go back and revisit.
24:12
[SPEAKER_03]: For me, I did this before I wrote true nature.
24:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I started revisiting some of those old journals.
24:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, there was people that I met that I had forgotten all about in their names.
24:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And just the head me at their home, cooked dinner for me, took me to, you know, places in Hawaii that, you know, you're not supposed to take any one other than the locals, you know, and right.
24:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think I think, and I think journaling now, looking back,
24:39
[SPEAKER_03]: is so beneficial.
24:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Can be absolutely therapeutic.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I want to talk a little bit about true nature, but just to kind of put the full story around this.
24:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You wrote the Calabetta.
24:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you drill the R when you say it?
25:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh no.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say Calaberas.
25:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Calaveras, yes, we're going to release that beer, so the Calaveras, it's based on a county name and it's a series of books that are psychological thrillers and but they're all, I mean, listen to these titles, Blue Mountain, Forest Creek, Lonesome Dark, these are outside titles.
25:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it was funny because that was so unintentional, so unintentional.
25:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So my publisher just did the audio versions, just came out.
25:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it started a little over a month ago.
25:38
[SPEAKER_03]: They started releasing one every month.
25:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And I got to revisit Blue Mountain, which I haven't read in years, about four years.
25:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been out.
25:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't believe how often they ended up
25:53
[SPEAKER_03]: when things were just at their worst, I put them in nature.
25:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I put them on some sort of adventurous course, you know.
26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And it wasn't intentional and force Creek, you know, I had had that was originally written somewhat as a screenplay.
26:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I had that story in my mind for years because I actually had a,
26:21
[SPEAKER_03]: a situation where something similar happened to me while I was outpiking on a fall day and I accidentally ran across a marijuana grower on his way out.
26:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And it scared me.
26:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I scared him and it really scared my dog.
26:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And so as an author, you know, I, well, this was, well, I hadn't even written any fiction yet.
26:44
[SPEAKER_03]: It was mostly all just freelance type of work.
26:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, all the way back to the car like five or six miles.
26:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, that guy cut a cut.
26:54
[SPEAKER_03]: He, I know he had a gun.
26:56
[SPEAKER_03]: He could have shot me.
26:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I could be dead right now.
26:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Just because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
27:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I had this whole idea.
27:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote this screenplay.
27:03
[SPEAKER_03]: It actually won some awards never got made.
27:05
[SPEAKER_03]: But so it was easy, you know, you just write from experience, you know, the old cliche, right, what you know,
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's fun that nature has played a big part.
27:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you went nonfiction and you wrote true nature hidden in the high Sierra and that was a big change for you.
27:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But what inspired that book?
27:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, it's nature.
27:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the mountains.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But tell us about it.
27:31
[SPEAKER_03]: AI had just become pretty big and it was all the talk of the town sort of speak.
27:36
[SPEAKER_03]: AI is going to
27:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had just become a grandmother for the second time.
27:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I want a big award that allowed me to independently publish and cover all the costs of whatever book I chose to write.
27:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And it just felt a hundred percent.
27:57
[SPEAKER_03]: People had been asking, you know, why don't you write non-fiction?
28:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, I always read books, I feel, it's like, so what?
28:04
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, as a reader, you're always asking so what?
28:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So I thought, well, so what?
28:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't really have an extreme adventurous background.
28:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't climbed Everest or surf the biggest waves or something incredible.
28:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I think what I've done is very basic, but also inspiring in a way that it shows you someone a little bit older or woman alone.
28:29
[SPEAKER_03]: You can do these things.
28:30
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to be extreme to get just as much benefit out of these adventures.
28:37
[SPEAKER_03]: So it started out as a hidden gem guide book.
28:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I, the more I wrote, the more I started discovering that each of these hidden gems in the high Sierra really effective my life.
28:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Like they were milestones.
28:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Each one of them in my life.
28:52
[SPEAKER_03]: In my 30 years in the back country, these places absolutely changed me.
28:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And once you got into the story and into each place, it was easy to stitch it all together.
29:06
[SPEAKER_01]: What you said at each of these places changed you can give us an example.
29:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, for example, there's a great hidden gem.
29:12
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the first stories in the book.
29:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I was delivering firewood back in the day.
29:18
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of a follow-up side hustle.
29:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I would cut firewood and deliver it up around Kirkwood, ski resort in California.
29:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was delivering a load of firewood to an older woman who kept asking me the same question over and over if I wanted some lemonade.
29:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just thought, you know, it happens, right?
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:42
[SPEAKER_03]: She asked me if I like to hike.
29:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, yeah, I love to hike.
29:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I had mostly only day hiked at that time.
29:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said, there is this great postpile up here.
29:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, do you mean devil's postpile?
29:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Because there is a devil's postpile down by mammoth, California, mammoth lakes.
29:59
[UNKNOWN]: OK.
29:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And pretty well-known place, kind of an amazing geographic wonder type of place that a lot of people will visit.
30:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And she told me, no, it's not that.
30:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to give away the name of the place, but it's the name of the place.
30:17
[SPEAKER_03]: She kept repeating it, and I'd never heard of it.
30:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And I asked her if it was on maps, and she said, nope, it's not on any map, and there's no trail to it, and you'll probably never find it.
30:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
30:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
30:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, that very day.
30:31
[SPEAKER_03]: She gave me a general idea of how whereabouts it was.
30:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So I took off, tried to find it, spent about four hours hiking, saw nothing.
30:43
[SPEAKER_03]: started making phone calls to people that I knew that knew that area, they'd never heard of it.
30:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm thinking this lady is just confused.
30:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's still worried about the lemonade.
30:53
[SPEAKER_03]: She's still worried about the lemonade exactly.
30:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Then I was up there again delivering fire, not to her to somebody else.
30:59
[SPEAKER_03]: So I tried, I thought, well, you know, I really really really want to see this place.
31:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was rodeoing at the time.
31:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I was a professional rodeo cal girl.
31:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I was training barrel racing
31:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And long story short, I tried three, four more times in fail to find this thing.
31:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
31:21
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, you're done.
31:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, okay, I'm done.
31:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't exist or it does and I can't find it.
31:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And I accept my failure and time to move on.
31:30
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm delivering a load of firewood to the restaurant, it's called Kirkwood Inn, it's an old stage stop, great place, a bunch of my friends work there.
31:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I asked them if they'd heard of it, nope, never heard of it.
31:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I am sitting at the bar after unloading a quarter of firewood, drinking a bear and eating a burger, and these two older women walk in and sit down behind me at a table, and I hear Michelle's postpile.
31:54
[SPEAKER_03]: There's the name.
31:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And I swung around like the girl in the exorcist and I said, what did you just say?
31:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I just can't go, yeah.
32:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, is this place for real?
32:05
[SPEAKER_03]: This is my first post-pile?
32:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said, yes, I used to go there when I was a girl.
32:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have a map in a book at my cabin if you want to come and get it.
32:15
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a really.
32:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I did.
32:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I went to go get the map and
32:19
[SPEAKER_03]: She found the book but not the map.
32:21
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, another another like up and down up and down But she pointed me in a different direction and I have that day after about two hours She was very specific on what to look for and I believe her
32:38
[SPEAKER_03]: that it existed.
32:39
[SPEAKER_03]: So now I'm fighting this place.
32:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't care what it takes how many days I have to come back.
32:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm fighting this place.
32:45
[SPEAKER_03]: And I found it that day later that day and I was just amazed by it.
32:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It was absolutely this incredible.
32:53
[SPEAKER_03]: millions of years old postpile and you could climb up to the top and there's these giant mob-colored lava bubbles like they'd been petrified and frozen, you know, when they were hot and about to burst.
33:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just sat up there.
33:09
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a rock that I swear is made to lay on.
33:12
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got on this rock and I'm, you know, just looking up at the sky and thinking I was so filled
33:20
[SPEAKER_03]: with the horses or the rodeo or winning.
33:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I could win the biggest error.
33:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't feel fulfilled as I did that day finding that postpile and I thought I am done.
33:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm selling my horses.
33:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm my rodeo careers over and that was a huge aha moment and that talent changed my course of my life that day.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
33:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It absolutely was amazing and that, you know, I hadn't thought about it until I started writing the story and I was like, I remember that day as clear as a bell, I remember the decision and I just had never really revisited it.
33:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I had written about this post pile where it was, I got some hate mail.
34:01
[SPEAKER_03]: which is understandable, that it's not an easy place to find, so you're not typically gonna get the people that leave garbage and spray paint on rocks.
34:11
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very difficult place to find.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, well, I think that going to nature, it can, I'm not sure this psychological effect, you're the psychological thriller writer, so maybe we can dive into that a little bit, but it takes people, it takes me somewhere that I don't go otherwise in my mind.
34:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It wakes up things.
34:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know how to describe it.
34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see I'm stumbling over my words just trying to come up with it But you go somewhere and you sit down.
34:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You're having a new experience and all of a sudden life starts making more sense Somehow I did not expect that twist at the end.
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I gave up rodeo
34:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I didn't expect it either that day.
34:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't planning.
34:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I hadn't even thought about it.
34:54
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just this, you know, this is how old I am, an Oprah all-ha moment.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I hadn't even been thinking about it.
35:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I hadn't really...
35:03
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I just wasn't enjoying it as much and, you know, that was my whole world, my family, my friends, that's like walking away and everybody absolutely thought she has lost her mind, you know, there's got to be something wrong.
35:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Why would she quit?
35:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I was winning.
35:18
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like if you're not doing well and you're struggling and it's too hard and you just feel it's not worth it.
35:24
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a different thing.
35:26
[SPEAKER_03]: But I was selling horses for a lot of money.
35:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Now I'm thinking maybe I should go back to that.
35:34
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a good money of those horses, especially these days.
35:38
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I hadn't even thought about it.
35:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what I'm saying.
35:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I've realized how grateful I was and what that thing, right?
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: That nature thing.
35:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Being up there, just alone and hearing just, you know,
35:52
[SPEAKER_03]: silence other than slight breeze and you're it's I've never done psychedelics but I swear I I'm from what I've read it feels like it might be very similar you know into being in tune with nature and being able to actually feel the world around you and that's what it did for me that day and along with holy crap I did it.
36:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I did it.
36:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I found this place that they said didn't exist except for the old lady with the lemonade.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I totally understand that part.
36:24
[SPEAKER_01]: When you try for something and it doesn't work and you try again and you try and it kind of becomes even if it's not like I'm going to change my life, which in this case it did.
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you finally get there, it makes it all the more worthwhile because of the energy you put into it, the focus you put into it.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part of why I love climbing mountains.
36:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and if I would have found it the first day on the first try after a few hours, I'd have been on.
36:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this place is cool.
36:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Pretty awesome.
36:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
36:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And a story.
36:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Go on with your life.
36:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So describe a post pile is it like the the basalt stacks that you see some places or what it is basalt it is basalt this has more of a red Tinge to it.
37:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, six-sided columns hexagonal it.
37:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and millions of them These ones are vertical
37:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:18
[SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.
37:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're big ones.
37:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And what's cool is that you can climb to the top.
37:22
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not climbing on the columns.
37:24
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a trail that goes, I mean, it's not a real trail, but it's like a nature trail that kind of goes right along it.
37:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can work your way up from the back side and get up there and just walk around on top of this postpile, which you're walking on top of the columns, but they don't look like flat
37:43
[SPEAKER_03]: columns.
37:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It looks like giant.
37:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, gosh.
37:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
37:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Three four foot bubbles that were, you know, you're thinking volcanic molten and it's about to that's how I looked at it.
37:55
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the writer, right?
37:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Assessing as you're going along like how would I describe this?
38:01
[SPEAKER_03]: It's incredible, and what it did, because I could said it's not easy, there's no obvious trail to it.
38:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And I didn't have GPS.
38:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's on a map, and in fact, there's a fun little side note.
38:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I got an email from a reader.
38:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Gosh, this just almost made the whole process of putting myself out there and writing this book worth it.
38:23
[SPEAKER_03]: She sent me the longest email, but so heartfelt about she was going through a divorce, two little kids feeling very vulnerable, very desperate and she got a hold on my book somehow.
38:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said, it gave me hope.
38:39
[SPEAKER_03]: This book gave me hope, she goes, I don't know, I'm not an outdoorsy person.
38:43
[SPEAKER_03]: She said, but I feel absolutely inspired to try.
38:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And would you ever consider taking me on a hike?
38:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
38:54
[SPEAKER_03]: On a hike, I could take you on a hike.
38:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Like how hard is that?
38:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's eat up somewhere.
38:58
[SPEAKER_03]: So I told her a place to meet up and after a few weeks we did it.
39:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And I took her to Mrs. Postpile.
39:06
[SPEAKER_03]: We got lost because I said, don't you, yes, we're not doing that.
39:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And it had been years since I had been there.
39:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And we got, I got.
39:15
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't her.
39:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It was me turned around.
39:19
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of witnessed circle for about 40 minutes and gave up.
39:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I could have downloaded the map to the form that I figured I do where I was going, but this was the fun part of failure.
39:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Was that when we came, we backtracked.
39:34
[SPEAKER_03]: got back to where we possibly made the mistake and I said now it's up to you.
39:40
[SPEAKER_03]: It's getting a little bit late we've been hiking for about four hours when it doesn't take but about two or three to get there.
39:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to go back and we can try it again another day?
39:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I was kind of hoping she'd say let's just go back and try another day because
39:53
[SPEAKER_03]: My knee was hurting and she said, I do not want to go back.
39:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to at least try.
39:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, okay, let's do this.
40:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And boom.
40:02
[SPEAKER_03]: We're there.
40:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Another hour later.
40:04
[SPEAKER_03]: We're there.
40:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And she was all she just felt so I think it really hit her.
40:09
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this was the place I had read about.
40:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to go and here I am.
40:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I did it.
40:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm here.
40:15
[SPEAKER_03]: She was so thankful.
40:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And
40:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, you know, if that made any difference whatsoever, but it sure felt like it did.
40:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And for her to put herself out there and email me, it asked me to take her hiking like just to make her feel better.
40:31
[SPEAKER_03]: It that was an absolute privilege on my part.
40:35
[SPEAKER_03]: An absolute privilege.
40:37
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a great day and so many times.
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And in memory, I love the way that you're retelling the story of this, that I can see the excitement.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see you reflecting on it.
40:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I collect memories.
40:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I just really think they're so valuable.
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and you made a great memory that day.
40:55
[SPEAKER_01]: and the fun thing too is that you got lost going back to the place you had found.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that because that's part of what nature is about.
41:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, it's always mysterious.
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's surprising.
41:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll take you places you didn't expect, and that's why we should go.
41:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the adventure of it, you know?
41:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I, we were laughing about it.
41:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know, type two fun, right?
41:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a lot more fun.
41:22
[SPEAKER_02]: We got back after work.
41:24
[SPEAKER_03]: So, getting lost because I felt like just so ignorant.
41:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so mad at myself for not downloading the map, but overconfident that I could find the place because that I had written about.
41:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it, it, it,
41:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a good reminder too, you know, be prepared.
41:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I just assumed I knew how to get there and thought my memory would come back as I went.
41:43
[SPEAKER_03]: But there was a lot more down trees in my defense.
41:45
[SPEAKER_03]: There, there was so many down trees.
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: things do change.
41:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I, this fall late.
41:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It was after the first snow, but it had kind of melted off from the most part.
41:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I decided to go to a place I just called the beaver pond.
42:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that it has a name.
42:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the name of the stream that it's on.
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anything about it except it's this beaver pond.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hadn't been there for a couple of years, but I thought I need a hike today and I should go try to see if I can get in there before the snow closes it down for the season.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: When I got there, I did find it.
42:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But when I got there, I almost didn't
42:19
[SPEAKER_01]: and that here's what nature taught me from, you know, from this hike, the beavers had nearly cleared a forest of Aspen, and the beaver dam was about the same size that had ever been, but this is a big beaver dam, it's probably 10 feet tall.
42:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, wow.
42:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And there were new beaver puns that weren't there before.
42:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you used to it, there was one maybe two now there's six, but it was still beautiful.
42:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I set there looking at how much work these little critters had done, I was just blown away, but what it made me think of Lisa was like writing my book.
42:56
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do something consistently, look how much progress you make over time.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What you can achieve by doing a little at a time and just sticking with it.
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the beaver's did.
43:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't imagine the amount of work, just the amount of physical work involved.
43:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they have transformed the landscape.
43:15
[SPEAKER_01]: As beautiful now, you know, it's beaverpawn, beaverpawn, beaverpawn, it's a habitat for trout, it's a habitat for, it's really cool, salamanders, they're amazing salamanders and these beaverpawns.
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the point is, I never expected to learn that lesson from going out on a hike that day, but it was a really amazing reminder.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: If we have a dream and you do something to achieve the dream, you just chip away at it a little bit every day You can move mountains that way.
43:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, absolutely.
43:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean What were the odds of me trying to find this post pile failing over and over and sitting at a bar having a beer and a burger and These two old women coming in and talking about this post pile.
43:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I had been trying to find for weeks now come on.
44:00
[SPEAKER_03]: What is that?
44:01
[SPEAKER_03]: That's that's something beyond Yeah, you know, coincidence
44:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It found you.
44:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
44:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, the universe at this poor chick, let's cut her some slack, huh?
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's another point in the story, I think, is whenever you have an intention towards something, maybe it just builds our awareness.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like when you buy a car, and you've never seen a car like it before, and you're so happy to have a unique car, and then the next week, you see 12 others just like it.
44:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because you start to notice, but it's more than that when it comes to these sorts of experiences, when you focus your attention and intention on something, then the doors start to open.
44:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It leads to the end result, whatever it's going to be.
44:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's important.
44:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You bring up a really, really great point.
44:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that I don't think by trying to tell someone you should go high, or you should go do this, or nature there, be that.
44:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I think just get out there and be open to whatever happens.
45:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't expect an epiphany.
45:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm, you know, because the universe can do what's going to do or nature is going to do what she's going to do you just have to be open and let it come as it will
45:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard this was something that I heard about raising children.
45:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't, okay, so the quality time is what we're looking for, that big experience.
45:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can't plan for that.
45:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't make it happen.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the quantity of time that creates those experiences in those memories.
45:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you spend enough time in nature, you will see magical things.
45:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
45:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Johnson's beauty and you'll have experiences and things will happen.
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll be like, wow.
45:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and that was an interesting thing too.
45:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And the book, one of the first editors, when it was just kind of a big, you know, mess of stories and I wasn't sure where exactly I was going with it, just all these experiences, these adventures in nature in the Sierra.
46:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of his comments to me was, wow, you sure have had like a lot of crazy things have happened to you.
46:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, you know what?
46:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Not if you took the overall picture.
46:12
[SPEAKER_03]: This is 30 years being in the backcountry.
46:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Most of the time nothing spectacular happens or, you know, I don't, my significant other isn't always licked in the face by a bear or, you know, I don't always fall in the river and almost drown.
46:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, these are the stories based off the hidden gems.
46:33
[SPEAKER_03]: But sometimes just being like you say,
46:36
[SPEAKER_03]: the quantity of times that I have spent in the backcountry in this era, you're going to have inevitably have these adventures, these events that kind of stand out, you know, highlights.
46:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Look worthy.
46:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
46:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was the intention behind writing the book?
46:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the name of the book is True Nature, hidden in the high Sierra.
47:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So we heard the one story, postpile, devil's postpile.
47:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What was that?
47:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, was it just to kind of archive these experiences or does the book have another purpose?
47:11
[SPEAKER_03]: have to be honest.
47:13
[SPEAKER_03]: The main purpose, the convincing number one factor, was probably becoming a grandmother again for the second time and thinking, I'm getting old, I've had so many close calls.
47:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And if I die, this is the book I want my grandchildren to read, not how, you know, psychologically twisted my thrillers are.
47:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would say that that was kind of the the kicker for sure was and that's why dedicated the book to is is my grandchildren but in the end just to get people to maybe be inspired that these aren't these crazy you know super extreme adventures it's all perspective it's I call it personal stoke and I talk about that in the book too that was
48:01
[SPEAKER_03]: can we say REI back in the day about as we age and finding that will to still get out there and adventure because it's so much easier to sit on the couch, you know, when your back is hurting, your knees are hurting and you've got all these reasons to stay home and you keep thinking I'll go tomorrow.
48:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think each story adds not only a way to a realistic way to get out
48:30
[SPEAKER_03]: It adds the reason why you should.
48:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I talked about how it changed me, I think if you're open and spend some quality and quantity time out in nature.
48:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think there is something to be alone out there and maybe that sounds really scary and you shouldn't do that at first if it's just absolutely terrifying, you should probably start out with a simple little day hike or go with somebody more experienced than you
48:59
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's what it's turned out to be, but the original inspiration for the story was surely for my grandchildren.
49:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And now it's turned into, I'm getting these emails.
49:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Or I'm getting these comments on social media.
49:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I read your book.
49:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I did this.
49:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Will you take me to this place?
49:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll pay you.
49:21
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been very positive, it's been really positive.
49:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And what's really cool for me is getting responses.
49:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to sound like I'm talking about the book too much.
49:30
[SPEAKER_03]: But this is a cool thing that the non-outdoors people have no interest in going and doing something adventurous.
49:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Constitle relate and say how much they appreciated the stories, the heart and the emotion of the stories.
49:46
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was also a huge thing.
49:48
[SPEAKER_03]: because it's scary.
49:50
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like nonfiction.
49:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like putting myself out there.
49:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't I did not like it at all and I can't wait to get back to like murder and mayhem.
49:58
[SPEAKER_03]: It's much easier.
49:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That's funny.
50:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to share something with you and get your opinion or something for you to reflect on because I think it could be related to what happened with your book a little bit So it's been two or three years for some reason my mind drifted into the thought that we experienced life through filters We interpret things based on our preconceived ideas or understanding of the world around us or you know all sorts of things
50:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But we actually get to choose how we want to encounter an experience.
50:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I go into nature, it's real easy to be scientific.
50:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I can look at things and I can think about physics or botany or biology and start explaining everything in those terms.
50:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I can stop and look at it and see the wonder of it all.
50:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Without the explanation, without saying, well, I know why that happened.
50:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's because of this, this, and this.
50:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I can just go, wow, that happened.
50:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
50:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But here's a quick little anecdote.
51:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I went solo back backing in the dark.
51:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I after work, off trail, of course, above tree line.
51:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I'm going, I didn't take a flashlight because I don't like flashlight's much.
51:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you can imagine what this is turning into.
51:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm stumbling around on the dark.
51:17
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no moon.
51:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was really dark, pitch black.
51:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hiked up on a bull elk.
51:24
[SPEAKER_01]: it was during the rut and so he was scraping the felt off his horns on some willobushes but I couldn't see him but I heard him and he was very close and I just froze.
51:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very, very still and he caught my scent or something and so he froze.
51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I could hear him breathing, you know.
51:44
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to figure out what's going on, and I'm thinking, man, what is the best thing to do in this situation?
51:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was so dark, it couldn't do the hand in front of your face, and I finally just said, I'm gonna let him know I'm here.
51:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just said, hello, you know, Mr. Elk, whatever.
52:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he bolted, but what surprised me, maybe he could see better, or he knew the trail or whatever, but he ran toward me instead of away from me.
52:11
[SPEAKER_01]: and he ended up passing right by me on the trail, and I never saw him, but the ground shook the thunder of his hooves, and I thought I don't know how close he was, but I could have reached out and touched him, never saw him, and how do you want to interpret that life experience?
52:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And over the years as I reflect on it, it is impacted me in different ways.
52:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, you could say, well you're an idiot, you're hiking in the dark off trail without a
52:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be one interpretation.
52:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Another interpretation is what a gift.
52:46
[SPEAKER_03]: You'll never forget that.
52:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I bet you can easily go back there in your mind any moment and hear it and just because of also not being able to see and being in the dark, your audio, right?
52:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Is height, your sense of smell is height and your nerves are firing, your adrenaline's rushing through.
53:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Time probably slowed down a little bit.
53:08
[SPEAKER_03]: You'll never forget that experience.
53:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And how many other people can say that?
53:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you kidding?
53:12
[SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing.
53:13
[SPEAKER_01]: well what's been interesting to me is the different ways it's impacted me and this is just one example and i think what you're writing about in your book provides those sorts of opportunities to it's it's like well it meant one thing to me then but i've even more recently said big dangerous things in the dark the unknown the unseen stuff that we fear but isn't there to hurt us
53:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that sort of generalization that actually, like, yeah, I've had that experience and life is often like that, and that's okay, you know.
53:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
53:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it makes me think I've done accidentally some hiking in the dark.
53:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't like it.
53:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It was on a trail.
53:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a headland, but I was still sped by it.
53:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It was on a Tahoe rim trail, and I was clapping and singing, and I realized I do not know the words completely to one entire song.
54:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, so that's a single mouse.
54:04
[SPEAKER_03]: But I also had a close encounter with a big humpback whale paddle boarding near your home kayookis.
54:10
[SPEAKER_03]: That sucker was under my paddle board.
54:12
[SPEAKER_03]: It was coming up now.
54:14
[SPEAKER_03]: There's that line, right?
54:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Like your elk to where it's such a fine line.
54:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if he jumps, Ed takes me down.
54:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to outthink this.
54:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm playing this scenario through my mind as when this thing comes up because he
54:32
[SPEAKER_03]: backflip thing and I'm going under.
54:35
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no point in fighting.
54:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Just handed over to nature, right?
54:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Because take a deep breath and just see what happens.
54:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And that works one of the most amazing experiences of my life.
54:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I could say I could have been killed easily.
54:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Just like your elk.
54:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one inch probably the other way.
54:53
[SPEAKER_03]: You'd have a little different story, right?
54:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, it happened.
54:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I mean, that's what makes life worth living.
55:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Those experiences, especially when we get old and, you know, won't be able to get out of bed, that's all we're gonna have.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's fun to build those memories and they can feed us and inform us for decades.
55:15
[SPEAKER_03]: They really can help others, hopefully others.
55:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I love the sound of your book, True Nature, Hidden in the High Sierra.
55:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like to talk to you for another couple of hours, but I think we're out of time.
55:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't believe it's already been an hour though, it has so fast.
55:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So fun, and that was a beautiful place to wrap this up to the way that Nature impacts us.
55:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Not every hike is going to inform the rest of your life, but some will.
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
55:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what you were writing about in your book.
55:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really, really cool.
55:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, at the end of the show, I always say get out there and have some fun somehow.
55:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never know quite the right way to say it for that show.
55:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But this time, I think it might be just get out there.
56:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
56:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Because something amazing is going to happen.
56:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you can't get out there, if you're snowed in, like happens to us a lot, and the power's out, you can read a book, get your head lamp out, and read a book.
56:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't have to be mine.
56:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Pick up a book and read it.
56:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Read about other people's adventures.
56:13
[SPEAKER_03]: That's inspiring.
56:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And you might find a new event you like to do.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.
56:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
56:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, everyone out there get out there and have an experience.
56:25
[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
56:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Kurt.