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The X Force · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: I am your host, Tim Hannon, and with me always is my Dapper co-host.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Dapper.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's I like that.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, I'm Steve Ward.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: And today we're going to talk about a little experiment in Penguin's history known as the X-Force.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that like the X-Men?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Are they going to have mutant powers?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be like titanium claws.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: and They are they are not going to have very many powers at all.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Not even the ability to win a hockey game.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about uh let's talk about what this was and and and how it started.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: So let's go back all the way to the year 2004, which it's hard to believe is almost 20 years ago at this point.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and what happened in 2004 is there after years and years of rising player salaries and declining revenues, the NHL owners say, we can't sustain this model anymore.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: We must institute a salary cap, or else we're not going to survive.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's that's kind of you know ironic given that the owners caused that problem, specifically some of the big market teams like the Rangers and Capitals going out and um signing players to these massive contracts.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, it it made sense.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: The NFL and NBA had salary caps, and in leagues like the NHL, where it's not as popular as those two leagues, and you had uncertainties like the Canadian dollar, the cap meant that there'd be more parity and more financial stability.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're a player, you're not a big fan of that idea, right?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because it means you've if you're a star player, you might not make as much money.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the players won't agree, the owners lock them out, a very long standoff ensues, one that eventually cancels the entire 2004-2005 season.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally in July of 2005, which is an entire year later, the players and owners agree on a new CBA, which includes a salary cap.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: It also includes revenue sharing, which the players wanted.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say, Steve, that the the owners more or less won that labor dispute.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, like when you get competed in like Canadian dollars, which are called loonies, by the way, is that like monopoly money?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is that like real money?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can you go to the bank and turn it into like real money?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that like crypto or something?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's not really real money, like the dollar, but no, I'm not not to make fun of the Canadian dollar, which I think is worth more than our dollar now, but um whatever that means.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh monetary policy notwithstanding, um, yeah, this had to happen.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: The uh NHL was gonna, it was either gonna be this or the uh, you know, the dustbin of history.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they made a wise decision.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I thought the NBA got a cap after the NHL.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was before them.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was before them, yep.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well then that's probably what did it like and I think they after this they've kind of kind of fallen into the third most popular league now.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I think they've solidly kind of marked their place.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's NFL, NBA, NHL.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they're definitely solidly behind those two.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of salary cap leagues, some major league baseball probably still more popular than the NHL, but I have no stats to prove that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh regardless, when the league does come back, it's a it's a very different entity than when the lockout started.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um the salary cap means that a bunch of those big contracts have to be bought out.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and the general managers around the league, they're having to learn how to manage this new system of having a cap and a floor, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was another thing is salary floor.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you have to pay a minimum amount of guys as well.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh meanwhile, a bunch of players retire.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, if you were look at a list of guys that retired during or at the end of that lockout, it's it's a pretty hefty list.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Scott Stevens, Mark Messier, Brett Hall, Adam Oates, Al McKinnis, Ron Francis.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a lot of big era of hockey players kind of gone with that lockout.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And there were some who went over to play in Europe during that lockout and just never came back or didn't come back for several years.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of player movement, when that lockout ended, it's a little bit of a wild west.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's wild that that like you think the Canadian dollar was like kind of monopoly money.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are the danger getting played in rubles and I don't know.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what does the European Union use?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Euros, Euros, yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think most of the guys that went to play over there were probably from there.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And just, you know, and the guys that stayed were, you know, just wanting to stay at that point.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the other thing that happens at the end of the lockout is the league also decides they're going to implement a bunch of new roles aimed at generating more offense.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: For years, that that clutch and grab trap uh style of game that the New Jersey Devils unfortunately made popular, that was really turning off fans.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the league finally does something about it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: They they put in all these roles, they remove the red line, they implement a small neutral zone, they reduce the size of the goaltender equipment, they add those trapezoids behind the net.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And they even, for fun, throw in a shootout at the end of overtime to eliminate tie games.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was really hoping they would have gone with like a rhombus behind the network.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: But these are these are great rule changes.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: It really it really helped the game.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like mainly the biggest one was when you say eliminate the red line, I think it's still there, isn't it?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: They just don't call it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: It it I mean the physical the physical line is still there because it has to be there for face-offs, but it doesn't mean anything.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm puck movement.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because before it was a two-line pass, used to be a penalty, and it would go back to the spot of the pass.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So now you can pass.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was the whole point of the trap, was you would just stand all your guys right at that red line.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you could never get by it with any speed because you would have to like try and make a pass from that very condensed area of blue line to red line.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you stood right there, yeah, it was that that that was the whole point of the New Jersey trap.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So but once they got rid of that, that definitely alleviated that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Although Tampa, remember Tampa tried to play like a version of that kind of.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, teams are gonna adjust, but but at the time, that was definitely everybody was clamoring for that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're gonna bring the league back, make it more fun.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the whole the whole thing with soccer and hockey is what's the exciting plays in in those sports?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's plays around the net, not plays in the middle of the blue and red line.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, soccer is different where it's more of a building play.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: There aren't like a hundred, you know, it isn't up and down action.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's more of like they build the offense to and then you get a scoring opportunity.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas like hockey's more like up can be up and down, back and forth, non-stop.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting a save at one end, then there's another save at the other end, and you know, it and that's what makes hockey that much exciting.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you score a goal, uh how many times, even with the penguins, do you see right after that the team scores another goal?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what makes hockey exciting.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I said, even if I'm not saying the scores have to be 11 to 10, you know, all-star game kind of stuff, just shots on the net, plays around the net is what keeps the fans' interest, at least in my opinion.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're absolutely right.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the league realized that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so the those role changes and what we talked about before about all that kind of the Wild West of player movement, both of those things are really good news for the team playing in Pittsburgh.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because here's where the Penguins were at this point.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the Penguins, of course, had had a lot of success in the early 90s.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: They won two Stanley Cups uh with a high-powered offense.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: But by the end of that decade, they're bankrupt, they're on the verge of extinction, literally.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we did an episode about that at one point.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Mario Lemieux swoops in, he saves the team uh by buying it, and then he generates a bunch of reinterest when he unretires in 2001.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: We also did an episode on that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: But after that very magical run that they had in 2001, the Penguins are forced to dump Yaramir Yagar, Alexei Kovalev, and all their other high-priced stars.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: And Mario, meanwhile, he's dealing with a bunch of injuries.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And by the time we get to the 2004 season, the Penguins are basically a total dumpster fire, once again.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: They only win 11 out of their first 62 games that year, the year before the lockout, and they finished dead last in the entire league.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: That uh 2003-2004 season, uh, probably most remembered for Dick Tarnstrom being named team MVP for the pens.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Immortal Dick Tarnstrom.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean that was kind of a running joke at the time, like the yeah, the immortal Dick Tarnstrom.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh who had a I think had a pretty good year that year.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's a defenseman, but I mean that was kind of where they were, where Dick Tarnstrom was their best player.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and and really to add insult to injury, the Penguins lose out on Alexander Ovechkin in the draft lottery to the Washington Capitals, which really hurt not only because you know the Penguins were the worst team and they didn't get the best player, but also because the Capitals didn't deserve it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the Capitals were one of the teams that caused this whole labor mess with all their ridiculous spending, and they're the ones that got Yager.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it was it was just that that one stung a little bit.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a what if, huh?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: We could have done a what-if.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: What if the Penguins win that draft and got Ovechkin?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they still stink.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: They get Malkin, and they could have got Crosby.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, because Malkin was the same draft.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, that's right.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: They got Malkin instead of Avechkin.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But they would have had Ovechkin and Crosby on the same line.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: A guy who loves to shoot and a guy who loves to pass.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about the perfect uh winger for Sidney Crosby.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just go stand on that dot over there, Obi.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get you the fuck.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't happen.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you you live by the sword and die by the sword because uh the reason that there was a lottery in the first place was because 20 years earlier the penguins had tanked their season to get Mary O Lemieux, as we also did an episode about.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you know, you you can be upset about that, and I still am, but I mean the penguins are are really the reason the lottery's in place to begin with.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so at this point, I mean, the penguins have no prospects of getting better because they they're basically the pirates at that point.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're relegated to a small market, there's zero hope of signing free agents, there's very little hope of retaining the players they have, and as we said, the best player they have is Dick Tarnstrom.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: So when the lockout comes, the Penguins are one of the franchises who basically welcomes it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they they had come out at one point and said they actually would have lost more money playing that 2004 05 season under the old CBA than they did not playing it at all.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when the salary cap is implemented, uh Craig Patrick, who's the general manager of the Penguins, he can now operate on an even playing field, and the Pens have a lot more room to sign players.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: A few weeks after the lockout ends, even more good news arrives.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: The NHL announces that since there was no season, the 2005 draft order will be settled by a lottery, which includes every team.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And shockingly, the Penguins win that lottery.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's huge because the player everyone wants at the top of the draft is a 17-year-old kid from Nova Scotia by the name of Sidney Crosby.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he is one of these once-in-a-generation can't miss, gonna be an all-time great player.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And now the Penguins have won the lottery to draft him, and that literally changes everything for the Penguins and their fans.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, I don't know if you remember that feeling kind of like the next day or the next week in Pittsburgh, but the Penguins went from, you know, nobody really thinking much about their prospects to, oh my gosh, we're gonna get to Sidney Crosby.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that definitely um boy, I mean that was that was just like, and I think Craig Patrick was the one that wouldn't he wasn't involved in the Lemieux draft, but I know they said he was like their lucky, lucky charm.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: They sent him in there because I guess they always had good results when he goes into the draft.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So good for Craig Patrick, at least he did that's about one of the only things he does right here.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about Mario, it's it's very similar to that feeling, like we have a new savior again.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh in the and penguin fans had been through this before.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: So after after uh several years of losing, uh the team losing and people kind of losing interest in the team, there's now this spark of hope.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, if you're the Penguins, you want to capitalize on that hope.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they had a pretty good stable of young players.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, in addition to Sidney Crosby, uh they had drafted with the number one overall pick in the 2003 draft, a goaltender by the name of Marc-Andre Fleury.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they had drafted, as we said, If Genny Malkin the year before, he was still stuck in Russia at this point.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: They had a rookie defenseman by the name of Chris Letang.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they had a kid from Pittsburgh named Ryan Malone who had really come on strong at the end of that terrible 2004 season.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: He was no Dick Tarnstrom, that's for sure.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: He no, I mean he was.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then they had some other young guys, Brooks Orpick, Ryan Whitney, Colby Armstrong, Max Talbot.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: These were all recent draft picks who the Penguins thought, you know, these guys could become solid contributors someday.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem is that there's really two problems.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: One is the league gets shut down for an entire year.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you're gonna have to sell Penguin fans on something more than a five-year plan to get them to come back into the building.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second problem, Mario Lemie's still there.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: He's still a player on your team, and the clock's ticking pretty fast on whatever time he might have left to play.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and so it's it's kind of a crossroads for the team and for Craig Patrick.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he had been the general manager at this point since 1989, and he had built the Penguins from this really bad team in the 80s to a Stanley Cup champion, and then he kind of helplessly watches them get bad again.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and really at this point for Patrick, I mean, all those great trades that he made, all the the Ron Francis and then Rick Tockett deals and all that, those were years behind him.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And in his later years, Patrick is more known for, I would say, the bad deals and the good deals.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he got nothing for Jagger.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, everybody remembers that.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the Marcus Naslin trade that he made with Vancouver, Sports Illustrated called that, quote, the worst trade in NHL history.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's a little dramatic, but the point being that you know Craig Patrick at this point wasn't didn't have a lot of success recently.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Would you agree, Steve?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: He what who do we we got like some defenseman from Yawger for Yah for Yager, didn't we?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like we got Chris Beech.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and two other guys who I can't.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was just, oh yeah, that was ugly.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the Marcus Naslin trade was a pure uh salary dump, wasn't it?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think they couldn't afford to pay him or something.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't I don't remember if it was a salary dump or not.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just remember that it was Naslin was pretty young at the time.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he went down to have a great career too.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: I have I think I think the thing that I remember about Nasl, the Naslin trade, why I think the the Sports Illustrator quote was a little dramatic, was because Naslin was a little disappointing here in Pittsburgh.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: He was like he was one of those guys, he was he was kind of like Alexei Morozov, like one of those guys that you thought, boy, you can see that he's really talented, but then he gets on the ice and he doesn't really do it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, now did they give him enough time?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously not, because look what he did in Vancouver.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, I mean, regardless, Craig Patrick not known as a great DM at come 2005.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a chance for him to kind of revive his legacy as well.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: So so given those given those factors, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: You have a GM that wants to revive his legacy, you you need to get fans back in the building, you know, and Mario's almost you know at the end of his career.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, you you can't really sell people on, hey, we're gonna be good in four years, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the penguins do something really unorthodox.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: They go out and they attempt to build a team that can win right now, and that's possible because of the aforementioned salary cap and wild west scenario.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the penguins are one of the few teams not trying to shed players to get under the cap, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of these other teams are out there trying to buy out contracts, trying to make trades, trying to get under the cap.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: The penguins, with Dick Tarnstrom as their best player, they have a lot of room to operate.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so they start making some moves that really raise eyebrows.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna walk through some of the moves they made.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one of the first ones was they signed Mark Recce.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what better way to get the fans excited than bringing back a guy that was a legend on the 91 team?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: He'd won the Stanley Cup with the Pens back in the 90s.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: He was a seven-time All-Star.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And now he's back in Pittsburgh, the wrecking ball.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody loved Mark Rece, so he's back in Pittsburgh.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that was the first big signing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Then they go out, they sign a defenseman named Sergei Gonchar.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and Penguin fans were pretty familiar with Gonchar.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: He had spent 10 seasons with Washington and had competed a lot against the Penguins uh in both the regular season and a ton of playoff series.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody kind of knew who Sergei Gonchar was.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was a really good puck moving defenseman.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penguins, if you look at if you look at the eras of success in Penguin history, they always had good puck moving uh defensemen.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like the equivalent of the Steelers having like a dominant safety.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it it you know, they had Larry Murphy when they won the cup in 91 and 92.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: That really good 96 team that almost made it to the finals.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: They had Sergei Zubov.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh some of the recent teams, you know, they had Latang.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So Gonjar was a big signing as well.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they went out, they also signed a guy named Andre Waugh, who was uh an enforcer who they kind of brought to protect the stars.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he had just won a Stanley Cup with Tampa Bay.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: They went out and signed Ziggy Palfey.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Ziggy Palfey was a five-time all-star.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: He was a great goal scorer.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that guy was just he he was I I don't want to compare him to Ovechkin because he wasn't as good as Ovechkin, but he was uh he was horrible.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: He was horrible.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's let's let's talk about Palfey at this point.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean because with the Kings, he played for the Los Angeles Kings.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they actually the Kings actually tried to sign him back, but he he wanted to go play with Mario Lemieux.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like he he respected Mario Lemieux so much he he came to Pittsburgh for that reason so he could play with Mario.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um at this point in his career, I mean, again, guy was a great goalscorer.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that was that was huge.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that one probably being the most excited about because Ziggy Falfey was um was was a great player.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they went out and signed a goaltender named Jocelyn Thibault.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: That was actually sorry, that was actually a trade with Chicago to get Tebow.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: He was a veteran, probably most known for being the guy that Colorado traded to Montreal for Patrick Waugh after Waugh famously quit on the Canadians.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: But he had some good seasons.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: He had actually just made an all-star game two years before this.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a good, you know, you you wanted a you wanted a goaltender.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: They had Flurry, but Flurry was still very, very young and still very raw.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're gonna build a team of veterans that was gonna contend now, you wanted to have a goaltender that uh that was experienced, and that's that's what they got in Tebow.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Lyle Odoline, Cornelius, remember Cornelius, Steve?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he uh Lyle Odoline was a gritty defenseman.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um he uh the reason that we know him as Cornelius is because when he played for the New Jersey Devils, he and Matthew Barnaby, uh when Barnaby played for the Penguins, got in a very famous feud where Barnaby called him Cornelius from Planet of the Apes, and they were like insulting each other's.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Wives.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was pretty ugly.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: But Matthew Barnaby's gone at this point.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So Lyle Odoline comes to Pittsburgh.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Guy was um 37 years old.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: But he was a good leader, good locker room presence.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: He had been the first ever captain of the Columbus Blue Jackets.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have an expansion team and you pick this guy to be your captain, obviously that says a lot about his leadership skills.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Penn slot, you know, he probably still has something left.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: He'll be a good influence on the younger guys.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then last but not least, they signed John LeClair.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that's yeah, uh, that's another one.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is like a contest between soon's worth him or Ziggy Palfi.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure which one was worse.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: John LeClare was a five-time all-star.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he was, of course, best known for playing on the Legion of Doom line with Eric Lindros in Philadelphia.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: He was this guy that just killed the Penguins for years.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: He was huge.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: He would just stand in front of the net, you couldn't move him.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and the penguins signed John Leclerc.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's a great player in a clutch and grab league, Tim.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great player in a clutch and grab league.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But do you see the problem with that philosophy?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: For for sure.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so all these guys, it it's it's that's a lot of guys to bring in in one offseason, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they dramatically overhaul the roster and sign all these guys, and and most of them are north of 30.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh LeClaire specifically was 36.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, that doesn't mean that they're gonna automatically suck.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you have a lot of a lot of sports stars who are great after age 30.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: You think of like Tom Brady or LeBron James, and and then even in hockey, Joe Sakik was the league MVP in his 30s.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Nicholas Lidstrom won all seven of his Norris trophies after age thirty.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: So uh being in your 30s isn't a death sentence in hockey, and you know, you mix these guys in with Sidney Crosby and some of those younger players we talked about, and all of a sudden uh, you know, you have you have some raised expectations, and then you still have Mary Lemieux, you know, at the at the head of the whole thing.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So now the penguins have a hook to sell the fans on, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: All of a sudden, you know, this is not a team that's rebuilding, this is a team that can win right now.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And they they decide that you know they need to do some branding, and they come up with this.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Amplified energy, devastating hits, Captivated moves, and bigger things are linking.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: the X Play.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Join the X Force October 25th for UPMC Penguin's team calendar with the Penguin take on the Florida Panthers.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: The X-Force.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: You get a UPMC calendar.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still have it from like 2005?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I do not have the UPMC calendar.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder who was on the UPMC calendar.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Was it Jocelyn Tebow?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: It may have been.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Zayus?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't know.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, they come up with this branding and they call these group of guys the X-Force.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why the X-Force?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was this there was this trend in the 1990s where the letter X was very popular.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: You had you know the X Files and the X games and Generation X.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And even in Pittsburgh, you had a radio station called 1059, the X.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: So something about the letter X was very popular.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this was 2005, uh, which wasn't quite the heyday of the letter X.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was past its prime.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're on the letter Y.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: But clearly the the Penguins marketing folks grew up in the 90s because they come up with this thing called the X-Force.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I it has no rhyme or reason, but it just sounds cool, and they can have the X like explode into a logo in their commercial.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that was that was the that was the hook.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I gotta admit, I bought into it, Steve.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I got season tickets that year.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was excited about the X-Force, and uh and I thought, man, we're gonna have a good team.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: What did you think at the time?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I thought the same thing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I thought they were gonna be good.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I thought they at least make the playoffs.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about how they did.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I think our listeners are figuring out that my expectations in reality might have not quite uh lined up there, huh?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: So the first game of the season, it's October 5th, it's at New Jersey.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And what a great way to start.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's Sidney Crosby's debut.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's this new era of penguins against the franchise, whom the league literally made a bunch of rolls trying to stop.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but the new roles don't really phase Marty Brodeur a whole bunch.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: He shuts out the Penguins and the Devils roll to an easy five to nothing victory.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: So trapezoid, smaller equipment, all that stuff trying to neutralize Martin.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of figured out, like, you know how they have that line, the goal line that goes along the edge.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: He would like skate before the puck got to that part, and you could still play, you know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So and you're not allowed to hit the goalie.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that would I mean I'm not like I'm not like one of these like guys, oh let's bring back old-fashioned fight style hockey.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if a goalie's gonna go out that far, shouldn't he be like legitimately allowed to be checked?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be okay with that if it's Purdue.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, I say if he's in the trapezoid, you're not allowed to hit him.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: If he's in the blue paint, you're not allowed to hit him.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if he's gonna skate all the way to the edge like Berdure used to do that to intercept the puck, then he's just like any other player at that point.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But hey, that's just me and maybe a handful of Canadians that probably think that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, disappointing opening, losing 5-0.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins dropped their second game as well in Carolina.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then they come back to the Mellon Arena to face the Boston Bruins.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Fans were really psyched for this game.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first hockey game in Pittsburgh in two years.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's the debut of this new team.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I actually took a grainy video from my seat at Mellon Arena that night of Crosby's first shift.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put a link to that on our website.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I took I took that video from my seat, kind of figuring I I bet this is the start of something special.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it starts out as a pretty special night for the Penguins.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mario Lemieux scores twice.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Zygmunt Pauffy scores.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the second period, this happens.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: Crosby looking loose in front, still a loose butt picked up by Ricky.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: Jones gone.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's on Crosby.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: Crosby does get the goal.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_05: And Sidney Crosby has scored his first goal ever in a Pittsburgh Penguins uniform.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, slap me, silly Sidney.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was memorable, at least.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Crosby's first ever goal was a power play goal from Recky and Palfe.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins light up the scoreboard that night.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is exactly what we all wanted from the X-Force.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Take advantage of these new roles, play that 1990s style of Penn's hockey.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penguins end up scoring six goals that night.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: They have a commanding six-four lead in the third period.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's going to celebrate, but Boston comes back.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: They score two goals to tie the game.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then former Penguin Glenn Murray scores the game winner in overtime, and the Penguins lose the home opener.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's really disappointing given the energy that night.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it and it also puts the Penguins at 0-3.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: And things kind of fall off the rails from there.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins end up dropping their first nine games.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now, several of those are in overtime or shootout, so they still at least get some points, but still not a good way to start.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's almost 10% of the season gone, and you literally don't have a W yet.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: And even worse, that these X-Force guys who were supposed to make the team so much better just aren't producing.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins in those nine losses are outscored 43 to 26.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: And remember, six of those 26 goals came in that one game against Boston.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: So literally, in the other eight games, they only scored 20 goals, which is not gonna not really a good path to victory.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're also very bad defensively, especially Tebow.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's really struggling in net.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh things do pick up a little bit as the team heads into November.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh on November 11th, Crosby beats Josie Theodore of the Montreal Canadians to win his first career shootout.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then November 16th, the Penguins are playing the Flyers.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And in that game, Crosby gets two of his teeth knocked out by Darien Hatcher, and then later in the game he gets high sticked in the face.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but don't worry, the referees do call a penalty.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: They call it on Sidney Crosby for unsportsmanlike conduct for being upset about his teeth being knocked out and a stick uh whacking him in the face.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the NHL, it's a garage league, and that's how they operate.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think his face got in the way of that stick.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, why what what was his face doing there to begin with, right?
• 31:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Why was his face even in Philadelphia?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, and you know, it's it's the start of a trend for Crosby.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think he realizes that night that you know that the league is gonna, unlike every other sports league, is gonna do nothing to protect its stars.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: They would rather see thugs like Darien Hatcher take him out.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so what can you do?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the best revenge is to uh do this.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_04: Now Malone protects and sails it ahead, and here's Crosby on the breakaway! The game on its deck! Sidney Crosby in overtime, and the Penguins have won the game 3-2.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice beating Philadelphia in their own building in overtime.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, and that would be really a lot of like year years-long trends begin in this game.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Crosby not getting protected, uh, Crosby and the and the Flyer fans hating each other, and then Crosby pretty much owning Philadelphia as well.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that that all began in that that very first game with Philadelphia.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So pretty memorable.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh another uh start to a rivalry happens on November 22nd when the Penguins play the Capitals.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sidney Crosby and Alexander Ovechkin face each other for the first time ever.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's the uh the night before Thanksgiving game, which is always like a huge draw in Pittsburgh.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you've ever gone to that game, it's kind of a big party because people have off work the next day.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like a Wednesday night.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a weird, that's a big, big like drinking night, too.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's bigger than I would say outside of New Year's Eve, which I always thought was amateur hour.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably yeah, that that's an underrated night for whatever reason.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: It it's the penguins always want to play at home that night because again, people people love just coming out, people are in a good mood.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And people are in a good mood that night because Crosby gets the better of Ovechkin.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: He has a goal and an assist.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: The penguins win five to four.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: He also makes this really spectacular play where he throws a no-look pass to Palfy as he's down on one knee and then and then Palfy beats Olaf Kolzic for the goal.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Mark Recce has a quote after that game uh saying this about Crosby and Ovechkin, quote, those two are really going to carry this game for a long time.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: How perceptive of the wrecking ball there, for sure.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: So at Thanksgiving, the Penguins are sitting at 7-9 and 6.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Which, I mean, if you think about it, Steve, 7-9 and 6 after that disastrous start where they didn't get a win until their tenth game, that's not not terrible.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like they could still salvage something here, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I don't know where where do you know what standings they were?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know where they were in the standings, but I mean, if you're if you're hovering around 500.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're at like playoff position by like, I forget if it's Thanksgiving, then normally you make the playoffs or something like that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's something there there's some weird like hockey thing like that.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, uh I just given given how they started, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: If if if it it it felt like they were turning things around, you know, they'd brought a bunch of guys together who hadn't played together before.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the team just needed time to gel.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they could keep that momentum going, right?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: The answer was no.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the Penguins play 13 games and lose 12 of them.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, that's gonna be a problem for yeah.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever flicker of hope was there after some of those November games flame up pretty quick quickly in the December snow.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh on December 15th, head coach Eddie Olcak is relieved of his duties.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penguins promote Michelle Terrion, who was coaching their AHL team in Wilkesbury Scranton.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: He is brought in to be the replacement at head coach.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: And also in December, Mary Lemieux is admitted to the hospital for an irregular heartbeat.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: No one realizes it at the time, but Lemieux will never play another game in the NHL.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: The other X-Force veterans aren't really picking up the slack in his absence.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: LeClaire, Odine, Andre Wall, all those guys are doing nothing.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thibault, by this point, had been replaced as the starting goaltender by Marc-Andre Fleury.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: And in January, he undergoes surgery to repair torn cartilage in his left hip.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the end of Jocelyn Tebow and his time as a starting goaltender in Pittsburgh.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: On January 18th, the Penguins get just absolutely shocking news.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ziggy Palfey retires at the age of 33.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Palfey actually, you know, we said we said he was terrible, but he he actually had 42 points in 42 games.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: G Given the expectations of some of the other guys, he was actually not bad.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he was 33.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he had a lot of potential hockey left, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: He was one of the younger guys out of that group that they signed.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: And he cites his shoulder, which he had he had had surgery on his shoulder twice.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he talks about, you know, he just it's it's a constant problem.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: He just doesn't feel like he can play at a high level anymore.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the penguins say all the right things, like we support him and all that.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: But it it rubs people the wrong way, especially because he ends up going back to Slovakia and playing for the team he played for there during the lockout.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Steve, he plays professional hockey until the year 2013.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 38:04
  unknown: Whoops.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and he he even compete he even competes for Slovakia in the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's not every day you get to compete for Slovakia in the Olympics.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: He had hit him and HOSA on that team, probably, huh?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they would have.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about people that don't want to play in Pittsburgh for 100, Alex.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: They probably could tell a lot of stories about that.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, we do well with the Czech.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Czech guys want to play here, but the Slowbox, they just don't have nothing to do with us for whatever reason.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and and and like Steve, you you gave out like that big sigh when I started talking about Zygmunt Palfey, and and I did too.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like I didn't remember that he actually was producing A point a game actually isn't that bad, really.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: But but the reason that the reason that we all remember him being awful, I think was because of this, because he basically quit on the team mid-season.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, and and that can happen.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's everybody's prerogative, right?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: If you're if you're like, look, I have this you don't understand what it's like to go out there every night with your shoulder killing you, right?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: And trying to trying to play like that ever I think everybody would not everybody, but most people would understand that.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: But then you go back and you play hockey for eight or nine more seasons.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: In Europe, it's like, okay, you just quit.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: You just didn't want to play for the Penguins.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think people really don't remember Palfi very warmly.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta do what you gotta do.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Slovakia calls, you listen.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So uh about a week later, the dominoes just keep falling.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Mario Lemieux announces his retirement for a second and final time.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think, Steve, I think he probably knew back in December that he wasn't gonna be able to play anymore.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: But he announces this the week that the Steelers are playing in Super Bowl 40 in Detroit.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was intentional.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think he literally waited until he knew But he was just distracted.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: It'll never get covered.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't think he wanted a lot of fanfare.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think he wanted to announce it, have it be as quiet as possible.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what better time than the Steelers are about to play a Super Bowl here in a few days.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so that's that's kind of the quiet end of the greatest career, one of the maybe arguably the greatest career in the history of Pittsburgh Sports, not just the Penguins.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's sad because Mario came back and he was great.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that first season he came back.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was he he he he was lighting up the league, and then just injuries in his body just didn't hold up.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and so now he's he's he's retired for a second time.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh previous season MVP Dick Tarnstrom is traded.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Our best player.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know the season is lost when uh when Dick Darnstrom is traded.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what Albert Dick Tarnstrom did in the rest of his NHL career.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Did he win like a Stanley Cup?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is he like I'm guessing probably not as not as great as he did in the year he was the team of the Penguins.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Never a Norris or Norris Ju.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, it's amazing.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: This the season started with so much promise, and by this point, um things are just very bleak.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's also reportedly a rift forming in the locker room between the younger players and the older players, and this is really exemplified with the tension between Mark Rece and Sidney Crosby.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Crosby back then argues a lot with referees, and Rece supposedly did not think that a rookie had earned the right to do that.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and you know, both of them downplay all that in the media, but there has to be at least some truth to it if if you know that's coming out.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: So whether or not that was a big deal or or a small deal, who knows?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, right around the same point, Steve, you and I talked about uh in a different episode about the uh remember Alan Fanica and Ben Rothesberger?
• 42:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: When Rothlesberger was a rookie, and that was that was largely much ado about nothing.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so maybe this was the same thing, who knows?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: But that but yeah, that was that was a big deal at the time.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Supposedly Recky and Crosby are at odds with each other, old guy, young guy.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, sometimes you gotta tell them young'ins what's up.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: So but that's a I I people still call him what Sydney crybaby to this.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard that, like on the internet and stuff.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess maybe that reputation still follows him a little bit.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: It it does, and he did chirp a lot at the referees, especially earlier in his career.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think he he immatured a little bit after that.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, again, you can you can say it was immaturity or that he was shouldn't have done that, but like we said earlier in the episode, he was getting his teeth knocked out because the league just had no interest in protecting him.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't like it was unwarranted.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Reci is ultimately traded to the Carolina Hurricanes at the trade deadline.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I don't think it was because of the tension with Crosby.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was just because by that point the Penguins are sellers uh and not buyers, obviously, in the in the trade market.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh after after one really particularly awful defeat against the Edmonton Oilers, who was the team that uh represented the Western Conference in the Stanley Cup Finals that year, new head coach Michelle Terrion has seen enough and proceeds to go on arguably the single greatest rant in the history of Pittsburgh sports.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: We played it on a previous episode, but I think we'd be doing it a service because it's so epic.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: We have to play it again.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: So here is Michelle Terrien his press conference after that game.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Not impress.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pathetic performance.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Half of the team doesn't care.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: That defensive squad, you know this.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think their goal I I really start to believe their goals is to be the worst defensive squad in the league.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they're doing such a great job to be the worst defensive squad in the league.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: They turn the puck over, you know, they have no vision.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: They suff like I never see a bunch of defensemen soften like this.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you know they're they put the two combination and want to get your gas.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh absolutely.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of guys don't care.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: They pretend to care, but I know they don't care.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: They make my job miserable.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's give and take.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love the like just the total like, well, they're gonna make me miserable.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna make them miserable.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love Michelle Tarion.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: It it's so good.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it it is right up there with like the Jim Morrow playoff rant.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: It it it's just so much to unpack there and so many like just yeah, yeah, just that they make my job miserable.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: What are you gonna what do you gonna do?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: They make my job miserable.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's I think their goals become the worst defensive squad in the league.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And they're doing such a good job of that.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is just unbelievable.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if that if that doesn't if that doesn't summarize this X-4 season, that that whole rant, I don't know what does.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the rest of the season really doesn't get any better.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: There are a couple of bright spots.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh March 12th, 2006, uh Marc Andreek Fleury gets a shot out against the Philadelphia Flyers.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's really starting to develop into a true number one netminder.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: April 13th, Crosby scores four points and a win over the Rangers.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Was Yager on the Rangers and they're their playoff team?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I think I went to that game.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that was a game.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had two Rangers fans behind me, and I didn't have anything else to say to them.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I started chanting 1940.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even though they had won 19.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not 1994, just isn't the same.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I didn't have anything else to say to them.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you ever want to just you know make a Rangers fan cringe, it's starting in 1940.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing, another great John Leclerc moment was Crosby skates around like the whole like offensive zone.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because we had these seats, me and my kid, in the end of the the end where the um the Rangers were defended.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think Chris Weeks was the goalie.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Crosby like skates around everybody, is like does this amazing move, and he hits like Leclerc with the beautiful backhand pass to which John Leclerc literally falls over on his skates and the puck like drifts off his stick.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was pretty impressive.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: X-Force Unite on that one.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds yeah, that sounds very John Leclerc-esque for that season.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you can't even like just stand there and let the puck bounce off you.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the well, the last kind of the last big thing for that season is can Sidney Crosby get to 100 points?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Only five rookies in NHL history have ever scored 100 points, uh, and none were as young as 18-year-old Crosby.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the Penguins make a huge deal out of that.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, why not?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: What else are they going to do to generate interest in the team at this point late in the season?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's a big thing in the local media.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And on April 17th, Crosby does reach that milestone in a 6-1 win over the Islanders.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: He finishes with 102 points.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: To this day, that's still fifth all time for a rookie.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he does, however, lose out on the Calder trophy for rookie of the year.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: That goes to Ovechkin, who has 106 points.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the rival, like I said, the rivalry really begins early for those two.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins finish the season, Steve, with 22 wins.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Out of 80.
• 48:34
  unknown: Wow.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Out of eight out of 82 games.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's good for worst in the Eastern Conference.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: So the the the year before the lockout, the Penguins finished last in the Eastern Conference.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: They go out, they build this X-Force, they sign all these players, they have Sidney Crosby, they have these younger guys that are more developed now, and they finish in last place in the Eastern Conference again.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about the aftermath of some of this.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Mark Recky actually comes back and re-signs with the Penguins, has a third stint in Pittsburgh, uh, eventually retires in 2011.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: He's inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2017.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Did he and Crosby ever mend fences?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, he did come back to the team, so there's no way Mario Lemieux is the owner, brings him back if he and Crosby's relationship are as toxic as everybody made it out to be.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that being said, fast forward to August of 2020, when the Penguins fire assistant coach Mark Recce after a dismal playoff showing against Montreal, and there's speculation even at that point that Crosby's the one that pushed for the firing.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: So who knows?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Again, a lot of behind stuff we don't know that goes on behind closed doors.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Andre Waugh, he eventually gets back to Tampa.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: He retires in 2009.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Lyle Odoline retires after that season and actually settles in Pittsburgh.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's so weird.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is he does he have any other connection?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I believe don't quote me on this, but I believe his wife, I believe he met his wife, and and that might be why he stays in Pittsburgh?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's just like, oh, well, I guess is where I retired, is where I gotta stay.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: That happened to everybody, like you know.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like wherever you retire, that's where you have to stay.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Tom Brady's in Florida already, so he's set, right?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: Franco Harris lives in Seattle.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's a it's a good thing he does stay in Pittsburgh, though.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: In 2018, he gets this really uh rare blood infection and almost dies.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: Allegheny General Hospital does this miracle surgery on him where they replace his heart valve, kidney, and liver all in the same procedure.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he actually makes a full recovery.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um we'll link there they there's a whole like medical miracle like documentary story on that uh that you can watch on YouTube.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: So pretty amazing story that um AGH did there too to save the life of Fly Lodoline.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Good for him, yeah.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: John LeClaire.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: John LeClair plays in just 21 games for the Penguins in 2006-07 before being released and then retiring.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: But as one final middle finger act to the Penguins, LeClaire runs into rookie Ifgeny Malkin during a preseason game, separating Malkin's shoulder and delaying his much anticipated Penguins regular season debut.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, John LeClair, for killing the Penguins all those years as a flyer, coming to Pittsburgh, not doing anything, and then running into your teammate If Kenny Malkin so that he can't start the season after you had to like smuggle him out of Russia and everything.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I hate the flyers.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: John Leclerc sucks.
• 51:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was just who thought that was a good idea.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't uh I don't think they realized that the league was all going to be about skating.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: It they thought it was still gonna be, I don't know.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, but even even like um Patrick Hornquist years later, I mean Patrick Hornquist was that type of player where he, you know, he was like a net front presence.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: He, you know, they had that team uh in in in in the one the two Stanley Cups later that was built on speed, and Horn Hornquist wasn't exactly the fastest guy in the universe, but he had a he had a role to fill there, and and maybe they thought LeClaire could do that.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: And anyway, it just it was a disaster in every every aspect.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one of the X-Force guys that they did sign who ended up not being a disaster, probably the only one, Sergei Gonchar ends up being a steal.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's the bright out of every other signings.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was the perfect signing for for Malkin, too.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's an excellent point.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have a good I have a good Gonchar story.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell yeah, tell your part.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell my Gonchar story here.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, as Steve Steve alluded to, uh, so so not only does he become a you know uh really the anchor of the defensive unit, but he's also just massively instrumental in helping Malkin assimilate to America.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember there was a game me and my dad went to when it was Malkin and Crosby.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: It might have been Malkin's first year, might have been that next year, and Gonchar was there, and there was a face-off, and they and that that was back.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Remember when like that the Penguins were tied or behind, like Terry and would put them out at the same time, Crosby and Malkin.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were out there on a face-off, and Malkin obviously didn't speak English, and Crosby doesn't speak Russian, so you could watch, and it wasn't on TV because you know they're in a TV timeout, and as they're lining up for the face-off, you can see Crosby skates over and says something to Gonchar, and Gonchar skates over and says something to Malkin.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: And sure enough, they win the face-off, and Malkin's right where the puck's going.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, it's like that's how like that was it's a little thing, and I don't I think Malkin scored the game-winning game goal in overtime on that.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was the Flyers.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think they played the Flyers, actually.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it was I remember like Malkin being like, you know, thinking, oh wow, it's good we have Goncharter, really.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, get get Malkin into the you know, now he's just a complete jokester.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can't can't get him to be serious, but yeah, once he learned English, he's he's a wild one.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: That that Yavini.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: He is.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so that that was the one signing.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: That was, like you said, the one bright spot.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the X-Force is remembered today as a complete failure, obviously.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it costs Craig Patrick his job after 17 seasons as Penguins general manager.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: It cost Eddie Olcek his job.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: Mario retires.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's just a total disaster.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: But off the ashes of the train wreck, the Penguins end up building a dynasty.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Ray Shiro is hired as the new general manager, and Crosby and Gonchar and Fleury Malone, Terrion, a bunch of the other guys from this team, would just two years later, two years after the disaster of finishing last in the Eastern Conference, lead the Penguins to the Stanley Cup finals, and then one year after that, hoist the cup for a third time defeating the Detroit Red Wings in a seven-game series.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they made the what was that the year they made the so the next year they made the playoffs?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or so yeah, the next year they made the playoffs, they were limited.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: That that's unbelievable.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: They went from worst team to making the playoffs to making the final and then winning the cup.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember I went to the game, my dad's pretty astute about hockey.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: He said this team's gonna be good.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: You could just tell it was coming together, you know.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, they they had something there, they tried to rush it because of Mario being at the end of his career, because of the lockout and trying to get fans back, and that didn't work.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: But once they abandoned that strategy and decided, okay, we got to build with the guys we have that are young, uh, it worked.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: It worked, and they won a Stan Cup, and they went on to win two more Stanley Cups with a lot of the same core.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: So uh what can you say?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the X-Force was a disaster, but again, out of it, out of it came some really good teams and and championships.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, any last uh thoughts or memories of the X-Force?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh John LeClaire sucks.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Go back to Philadelphia, please.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't have said it better myself.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh thanks everybody.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for listening.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we really appreciate it.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um please uh subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Please tell your friends, check us out on social media or on our website, and uh give us a rating on your podcast service.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel like to do so, thank you, and we will see you next time.