Latest / NO FILTER / Hiring Is a Skill - Interview With Laura Mazzulo of East Side Staffing and Ken Monroe_ CEO of Bchex

Transcript

Hiring Is a Skill - Interview With Laura Mazzulo of East Side Staffing and Ken Monroe_ CEO of Bchex · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is The Bad Hire, the show with the best
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: stories about the worst employees.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: We fired him, of course.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: People are crazy. It's like an HR nightmare. Right? One
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: bad hire stole all of it.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Crazy stuff. She got what she deserved.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Oh. I'm your host, Ken Monroe, and every week we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: dive into real-life stories... from the wild world of work
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and what can happen when the wrong person gets the job.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: These stories aren't just crazy. They're cautionary tales about lessons
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: learned the hard way. Let's get started. This is so
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: interesting that I was really intrigued that you only hire
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: HR leaders. I was just like, okay, well that's, you know, that's,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that's super interesting. Yeah.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: That's a bizarre thing.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I, You know, what I got out of that was,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you know, when you're, and I think this is probably true,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: and at some point you get old enough to have
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: or big enough to have, you know, an HR professional
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: come in and help you. So much of when you're
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: growing your company as a CEO, you're trying to, you know,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: you're doing that role, right? You're involved in every hire.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: You're trying to do whatever when it comes to culture
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and everything. The good ones figure it out and the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: bad ones don't. But you get to a place where
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: you have to have somebody carry the torch there and
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: build the systems that allow you to scale. And I
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: never really thought about it. You wrote something that said
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: how you hire determines who you hire. Basically, if I recall,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: you wrote how you hire determines who you hire and
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: who you hire determines how great your company becomes. And
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I thought, well, in no other position do you hire
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: someone who now affects every hire after that. And so
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: it kind of struck me in the business that I'm in,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the businesses that I do, how I make a living,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: just how critical these HR teams are. Especially on the
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: hiring side, I was telling someone the other day, We
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: were talking about this, Laura, and I was talking about
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: what I perceive their life to be like. Right. I
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: don't I'm not not I don't do it. Right. I'm
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: a cog in the wheel. But I feel the same
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: kind of pressure. And that is. You know, a thousand
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a thousand things right goes unnoticed. One thing wrong. Is
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: completely focused in on in the hiring process. Yeah. And.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: It's this, the hiring is a long process. It starts
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: with somebody saying, I think I need this person. And
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: then there's a discussion and then somebody frames out a
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: job application, you know, a job description. And then, you know,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: there's an agreement and then they'd run ads. And then,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you know, all this happens before you even talk to
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the first person. Then you go through this interview cycle
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: and you, you know, you finally honed down and you
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: make an offer and, And then you start the onboarding.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the onboarding, you know, it's challenging. And, you know,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I was talking about helping someone in my business understand
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: that's the pressure they're under. If we're late, if we're
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: not fast, if we make mistakes, they get yelled at.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: They get the pressure from whatever it is, you know,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: hiring managers out there, you know, divisional leaders that are
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: trying to put people in place. And, you know, that's
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: the pressure, you know, the same pressure we feel. We're
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: feeling the exact same pressure. So when someone calls and says,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: why is this taking so long? You know, that's the
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: reason we want to eliminate that at every corner because
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: that's a pressure-filled life to live. You know, you hire
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: 10 great people, no one, you know, says, man, great job.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: That was flawless, wasn't it? You know? Yeah.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just such a complicated issue, which is
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: why I said we just need to kind of hash
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: it out a little bit. I think that, A, the
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: more I've killed back the layer of the onion, you've
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: realized no company really invests in training their internal talent
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: acquisition team or their internal recruiting team. So you have
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: these bad recruiters, or we hear these horror stories on
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: the other side, candidates complaining about a bad hiring process,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: and I interviewed 12 times, and it was four months.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: It's not... You know, I feel the same with candidates.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: It's not like they want to be bad. Like the
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: internal recruiter doesn't want to be doing that. They often
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: just haven't been trained on ways to be more efficient
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and use better processes and have better systems and be
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: more assertive and confident and push back. So everyone's kind
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: of the victim of a bad process that could so
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: easily be fixed with a little humility and a desire
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: to actually get better.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: And that's where the ball drops. And I think to
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: your point, because I recruit HR, I have to convince
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: HR leaders to become humble, to learn and to unlearn.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And that's hard for them because they feel a pressure
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: to be perfect, especially at something like hiring, which falls
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: under their umbrella. So my job, the hardest part of
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: my job, I would say, is to get them to
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: a place of, are you willing to totally dismantle how
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: you've hired up until now and try something different?
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, it's I was I was reading
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: your some of your some of your posts. And, you know,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: by the way, congratulations on being super successful online. That's awesome.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Years of LinkedIn and kind of. But I think we
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: haven't been talking about hiring as a skill all these years.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: We've just talked about it to your point, kind of
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: like being a transactional thing. So there are like bad
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: candidates and bad recruiters and bad processes. And we all
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: just kind of complain about it. But actually, it's like being,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: you know, I always attribute it to people who play
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: a sport or musical instrument or kids who struggle in
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: a subject. You know, you just need to put in
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: some time to get it right. And to your point,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: like there's a whole process before you meet candidates that
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: has to be so tight and so efficient. And then
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: it will move fast.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I just think there's a kind of an arrogance around
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: hiring that I've been noticing in recent years. Just like, yeah,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I know how to do it. And at some point
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: we all get to a point of like, ah.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you this question because there's
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit of, there's always been this kind of
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: talk around the lack of, you know, HR is trying
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: to rattle the organization and say, hey, pay attention, HR
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: is strategic. Right? It's not compliance. And And that was
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: a real, for a long time, that was a real,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: you know, you could go to conferences about it. It
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: was a movement, right? Yeah. And then you started seeing
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: chief HR officers and, you know, taking a position in
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: the C-suite. And I wonder now if you think that CEOs,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: especially in up-and-coming companies, if they're smarter, if they're any
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: better in terms of understanding you know, that, you know,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: your mantra, recruit and retain, the retain part. They figured
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: out the retain piece of culture, you know, and all
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: the pieces afterwards that I guess add up to retain.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Do you think they're getting any smarter?
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: There is such a disconnect between when you talk to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: a CEO and a founder or a head of HR.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: And so a CEO will say to me, I wish
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: HR would have come to me and let me know
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: they needed training. They needed help. They needed external recruiters.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: They needed vendors. They needed partners. Like, of course, we
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: would have spent money or invested in them to make
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: their life easier. Instead, what happens is HR typically burns
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: out and then goes to them and it's a little
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: too late. And so it's a little bit on HR
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: to feel like instead of just complaining about it, because
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: I think they're often negotiating against themselves. And they're often saying, like,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: if I go to my CEO, they're going to say no.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Whereas the CEO is like, I absolutely would not have
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: said no. So there's definitely a disconnect there between I
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: think the strategic HR pros have learned how to be
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: more assertive and confident. But that's actually still a massive
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: problem because I meet a lot of them who aren't
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: capable of just those kinds of conversations.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And it's, I guess, not easy for everybody to go
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: to an executive and say what you need and want.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: But I think it's so important when you're trying to
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: move something forward.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: That's a theme I hear from you. is the assertiveness.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: And I assume you mean that in a super positive way,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: but the ability to have a conversation with an executive,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: with a CEO, with an owner, a founder, and say, hey,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: you know, you may not want to hear this, but,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: or this is the way it has to happen or
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: should happen, or this is good counsel. Correct.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: It's so funny because that never came hard to me.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like the New Yorker in
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: me or what. I, That was never hard for me.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Even when I was early in my career, if I
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: saw something wrong in a company I worked for, I
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: just went to the top and told them what I noticed.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But I do think for a lot of people that
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: does not come naturally. And so they see a problem
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: and then they just like swallow it. And it doesn't
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: make any sense. So I always, when I'm coaching internal recruiters,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I remind them, like, if you're seeing problems with your processes,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: you need vendors, you need help. You need tech that
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: you're not getting access to. You have to tell somebody
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: they're not going to know. Your CEO doesn't know what
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: a hiring team needs or what an HR team needs.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: We always want to blame the executive.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we think we do. Right. I think
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: sometimes we think I get approached. So I get, you know,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the sales mantra to salespeople is like call to the
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: highest level. Right. So they're calling above the HR leader.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: They're calling the CEO. They're calling the chief operating officer
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: and they're pitching salespeople. stuff. Right. And I think about the, the, the, if,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: if you are an HR leader and challenged to, to,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to confront challenge, to speak up and, and you know,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: CEO says, Oh, I've got this super cool new technology
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: that this guy pitched me. It's, It's super good. It's
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: going to make us way, it's going to make us
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: way efficient. You're going to love it. We're never going
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: to have to speak to anyone else. AI is going
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: to do it all, whatever it is, you know? And
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: then you've got, you know, on the, on the opposite
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: end of that, you got CEO founder tumbling down this
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: thing and you, you know, an HR leader looking at
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: it going, Oh, this is not going to end good.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I just don't see it.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: It's interesting that you said assertive could even be perceived
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: as negative. Cause in my mind, it's only positive. If
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: you want to be perceived as a strategic leader, the
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: way I would define that is you're a person who
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: comes forward with solutions. And so that means you also
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: have to express the problem, right? You have to be
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: willing to say, and you know, I listened to so
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: many of your stories and a lot of it could
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: be solved with better hiring processes. So it's like, yeah,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: you know, we're complaining about all these bad hires we've made.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It's probably solvable if we actually try to improve.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: There's two, there's a lot of themes in there that
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I see is like, I listen to these stories and
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: others that come in and they're like, how in the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: world did this person make it into the system. And second,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: often after some of these stories, we're looking at it going,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: why didn't, why did they wait so long? Like this
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: person just was tumbling out of control, you know, and
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: they just kept sending them back to work and this,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: and it continued and you hear, and then finally a
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: year later, we, you know, and, I guess we've.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Nailed it with lack of assertion. There's usually somebody who
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: sees a problem who's scared to say it. And I
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: don't know why, because to me, there's only upside.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Lawsuits. Everyone's afraid of directing them. Yeah, and if.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: You're having a conversation with your executive about something that's
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: going on, that's not.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: That shouldn't be driving. Yeah, for sure. Exactly.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: That's just a, hey, I'm noticing something that we might
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: need to escalate or get legal involved with. But it's
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: like at least just flagging it, right? It feels like
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: that's the problem is these things just don't even get flagged.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: So back in 2013, tell me about the journey to then.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: What had you been doing?
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had been working for a big recruiting firm
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: from 2007 to 2012. 2007 was like a height of hiring.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: So there were 22 recruiters on my team just placing
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: HR people in New York alone. And then 2008 came.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: And so we had layoff, layoff, layoff. It was rough.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: By 2012, I was the last man remaining and I
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: was running their HR practice alone. And I thought I
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: should do this on my own and do it the
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: way I want to do it with my own values.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: And so that's what led me to launch Eastside Staffing.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: 2013 was also an exciting time for hiring. I mean,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: I would not launch a recruiting firm today.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Then it was like everybody was hiring and everybody needed
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: help and they welcomed the help. And then it's, you know,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: then it was a happy ride until 2020. And then
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: the last couple of years have been tricky. You kind
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: of have to ride a roller coaster.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, all of us that depend on hiring are
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: like that, right? You know, all of my, most of
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: my businesses are all aligned to hiring. HR. So it's, um,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: it's in different verticals, but, um, yeah, it is. Now we,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: we also do a lot of work in schools, which is, um,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: super interesting hiring cycles. Um, if I was again, explaining
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: to someone the other day, you know, an HR pro
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: who's hiring in school, the entire, the entire year of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: hiring is compressed into a two and a half month period,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: two month period. Like And there's this impending event, like
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: if you're late, right? And you deliver someone late in
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a typical role, you know, you're going to make some,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: it's going to ruffle some feathers. People will be, you know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: they're going to call you slow. They're going to be,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of reasons they could be upset.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: But in a school. class starts and there's going to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: be kids in that classroom, right? And there's going to
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: be like, we don't have anybody that teach second grade or,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: you know, seventh grade English. There's no one in that
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: school that can qualify to teach it on this day
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: and school started. So lots of pressure for them.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: You need sometimes a deadline that you actually are working
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: on a timeline.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They compress so much into, you know, into that and,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: you know, supporting them and helping them is a lot
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: of times about just refining process and getting better and
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: better and better and becoming faster and efficient, effective at, at,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you know, not only doing things fast, but also creating
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: a positive experience for them. You know, these, you want
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the experience of coming on to be positive. That's your
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: first taste of the culture, right? How did I get treated?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: How did they treat me along the way? Do they
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: know what they were doing? You know, those are all
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: like really positive things that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: So interesting because as you're talking, I just had this
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: like light bulb thought that because you were saying strategic HR,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: it was everyone's goal to be strategic, but no one
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: really knew what that meant or how to get there.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And so it's just kind of been a buzzword in
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways. The same is true on the
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: recruiting end. So we've always, on the external side, we've
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: always referred to ourselves as recruiting consultants. Like that was
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: always my title since 20 years ago. And then I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: think I understood what that meant as, you know, you're
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: an external consultant, you add value. However, I think in
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the last few years, it's become even clearer that it's
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: about being creative to find different solutions to meet the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: actual problems of the clients. Historically, it was always, okay,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: we need an external recruiter, we pay a fee, you
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: find the person, it's a transaction. Lately, it's been more of,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if we need an external headhunter,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: but we need help. Our internal recruiters are struggling. Our
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: process needs work. Our hiring managers need training. Our processes
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: are too long. It's like I've actually started really peeling
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: back layers of the onion and realizing the right solution
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: isn't always just fill the job. It's actually, to use
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: your point about education, teach.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Teach people. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so not necessarily like
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: staff augmentation. Here's some additional recruiters to go find some people,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: but more we're broken in these places. This doesn't feel right.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: This is inefficient. My people need to be better trained
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: to do this. Yeah, that's interesting.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: It just requires a team.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: To admit that. Are you working to fill that now?
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're doing?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: The bulk of my business is still filling HR jobs
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: where there are openings. So I'm still very much kind
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: of seen as an external recruiter. However, I think what
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I'm getting better at and what I'm enjoying is when
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: clients call me and say something like, Laura, we've been
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: working on this HR job for four months. Our internal
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: recruiter is hitting a wall. She's brought in 25 people
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: for us. We're not filling it. Instead of me just saying, okay, great,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I'll fill it. Sometimes I'm offering like, do you want
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: me to work with them one-on-one for a few months,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: see what's going wrong? Maybe I can help figure out
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: why it's been problematic. I'm sure there's a reason. You
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: probably already have your candidate there. not usually an issue
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: of more people. It's usually an issue of kind of
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: identifying the talent. Are we asking the right questions? Is
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: the process efficient? So I'm having fun with kind of
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: hearing the problem and identifying exactly what they need, but
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it's not always just pay a fee and be done
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Right. You know, it seems, um, well, I guess they're
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: both rewarding. I mean, I enjoy, I enjoy, I enjoy
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: fixing things and building things. And so there's probably feeds
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: that for you. That's really good.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I think historically in recruitment, there's been an internal
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: recruiter versus external recruiter battle. And the internal recruiter, rightfully so,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: is usually annoyed when they go to search because it's
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like they've already been working on it. Now we have
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to bring in an external person who's going to get
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: all the credit and get it done. And so I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: started noticing that dynamic and thinking, shouldn't I just help them?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: They probably just need some support. And that could be
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in the form of training or coaching or something else.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So that we're working as an actual team. And I
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: think part of being strategic is also teamwork and not
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: just kind of like outsourcing at all.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Before we dive back into the chaos on the bad hire,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: this episode is brought to you by B-Checks. Hiring shouldn't
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: feel like rolling the dice. Background checks should come with
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: great tech, seamless integration, and customer service that delivers. That's B-Checks.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Lightning fast results, unmatched accuracy, built-in fraud prevention. We help
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: you hire the right people. Now, B-Checks plugs into over
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: 100 HRIS and ATS systems, so your background checks run smooth, fast,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: and backed by top-level service. Protect your team. Protect your reputation.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Protect your sanity. Go to bchecks.io. That's B-C-H-E-X dot I-O.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I had a conversation earlier this week with a former
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: provost of a major university. And we were talking about,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: we were really talking about behaviors and hiring for behaviors
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and looking for certain behavior sets, modeling, and, you know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: he's doing something at his university using some technology that
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: defines a set of core behaviors, tests for them, and
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: allows them to kind of open up their candidate pool
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: beyond just resume fundraising. fitness, right? Just like to try
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: to find, Hey, these people might not have the total,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: you know, the total experience or the skillset, but they
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: have the behaviors of what we perceive the best performers
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: to be. And we were in, it was in a
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: university setting. And it struck me as he shared with me,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I never really thought about this, but he was sharing
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: that in a university setting, it's a very long process
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: to hire someone. And that they've introduced this behavioral piece
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to help them get through the process to selecting. And
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: the reason it's so important is the people who show
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: up often show up with tenure. They bring their tenure
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: with them. It's a permanent hire the moment they pull
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the trigger. There is no escaping the bad hire there.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: They can't mess up.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: They cannot. And oftentimes, they're well-paid. It could mean research
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: grants and other things that are under their control that
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: they might lose if they pull the trigger on the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: wrong person. It's just not a good fit. So I
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: just never imagined that. And listening to him describe the process,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and we were talking about how to improve the process.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: He was asking me questions. And I really thought about
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: walking away from that. Some of these things are just
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the differences in scale between trying to pull the trigger
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: on a decision like that and how important it The
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: process was in very unique ways compared to how important
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the process was for Target or somebody who's hiring lots
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of people and you still got to do it right.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Well, and you're referring to really this push towards using data,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: which is so smart and logical, right? So you use
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: competencies and use skills as a data point to make
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: an accurate hiring decision, not off of gut feel. Not
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: out of instinct. And for those of us that were
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: trained that way 20 years ago, it isn't unlearning. To
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: be like, well, I like this guy more, but the
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: other guy actually matches exactly what we need. You have
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: to go that route. And I think it's beautiful when
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: you follow a process and it actually works. That's how
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: managers start to trust it more.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I had a question right now for you, but I
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: think I deleted it. I had a question for you.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It was going to be, I'm a big believer in that,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: like most jobs, there are core behaviors that make people
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: successful in most jobs. But not all jobs require high skills.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Like you can train skills faster than you can train behaviors.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Behaviors are built over, in my opinion, years of coaching
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: and development, and it's hard to change who you are.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: but it can happen. It doesn't mean it can't. It
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: just means it's, I think it takes longer. And then, then,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: then so skills based versus behavior based. And, and I
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: was going to, when I think about an HR leader,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: It's a combo. It has to be a combo. Well,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to, that's okay. That's interesting. Cause I thought like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: this has got to be 80% behavior. Like if I
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: was hiring somebody, I think I will, I'm interested in
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: your reaction to that because I would think, yeah, let
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: me find the right behaviors because they can go figure
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: out the compliance hole they have or this hole. But,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you know, do they have the assertiveness? Do they have
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: the curiosity? Do they have, you know, the courage? What
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: are those behaviors that you need to profile that that
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: makes a perfect HR leader? And maybe that's different depending
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: on where you're at. You know, if you're at my company, it's...
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: one thing if you're a bank of.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: America, every team, every role should be different.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And usually it's a combo platter because let's say it's
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: like a head of total rewards job. That's all about
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: benefits and compensation. They do need some skills to run
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: that department obviously. And so you need to check some
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: of those boxes, but of course you need to check those,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: you know, we're still unfortunately often referring to them as
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: culture fit questions, but they really are to your point behaviors.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, there's a million ways we can
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: refer to them. You know, I like sometimes cultural ad they're,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: they're adding to your culture. They're not necessarily fitting your culture.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: They're bringing something in that is needed.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: And I think the.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Other piece, like when I listened to a lot of
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the bad hire stories, I'm thinking, you know, are we
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: asking candidates what they want and what they need? Because
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: that's such an important part of it too. It's not
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: all about what's our wishlist and then let's go find it.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: It's like, what does the candidate want to need from us?
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And usually it's, if it's mutual and the person identifies
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: why this job, this company, this leader is right for them,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that's when it's a good sign. Like if I have
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: a client who's down to two candidates, kind of like,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know which one to choose. They're both scoring
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: the same on the scorecards. They're both kind of showing
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: up the same in interviews. I'm like, well, let's ask
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: who wants it more. Like, let's ask kind of what
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: they're feeling. And usually there's one person who's really like,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: this is the place I want. And this is why,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: and this is what that really does help kind of,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: you know, it is a two person journey here. I
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: think we often forget that. We just kind of go
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: looking for what we want.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you if you had a.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: So you've had I'm going to I'm just going to
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask you how many, but I
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: would assume hundreds of placements you've done, if not a thousand.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never even counted.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Right. So just consume a lot. All right. So a
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: lot of repetitions to learn from, you know, what still
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: shocks you, you know, about how CEOs treat the HR
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: leadership role or that seat.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: It still shocks me that they don't communicate well with
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: each other. So it still shocks me, like I said earlier,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: that a CEO wants to help HR get better, but
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: HR is not speaking up about it. And so there
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: is often this bitterness where HR feels like they're not
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: seen or heard, but they're not really saying anything. And
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: then I think executives feel like they're not getting enough
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: from HR because they're not kind of helping them. And
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: so I try to remind both parties, Like CEO, you
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: have to ask your HR people to speak up. They're
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: not naturally as good at it maybe as your other
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: department heads. So get them to tell you what they
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: need and want. Kind of encourage them.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: There is a piece of what you're saying that sounds
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: like you're a dating matchmaker. And a therapist. Because you
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: literally are.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I've always said they say, they say recruiting is like marketing.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And I've always said, no, recruiting is like psychology.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: That's a much stronger comparison because you have to be
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: in the psyche of like, what is the hiring manager
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: up against with themselves? Why are they feeling bitter about this?
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Why are they struggling with this? Why are they resisting this?
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And then why is the candidate being guarded? And why
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: are they, you know, it's just so much nuance. And
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: when it's HR to your point, there's this extra armor
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: up because they feel like they should either know how
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: to hire really well or know how to job search
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: really well. They're feeling very resistant to advice. So first
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: piece is getting all that guard down. Just like right now,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: you're a candidate right now. You're a hiring manager. I'm
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the expert. Let me help you. And then, then we
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: can move forward.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: What's the favorite part of your, what is the favorite
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: part about, of what you do? What's the favorite part
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: of your job?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: What do you love? Yeah, I love, I love when
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: hiring managers realize things they could be doing better. And
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: so they start hiring better. I think that I really
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: hate watching people hire poorly because we have all seen
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: just these horror stories from it. And it's all fixable
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: if you're just willing to say, look, I've been in
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: HR for 25 years. I've hired a million people, but
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to relearn new things and unlearn things that
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: don't work anymore. And I want to get this right.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: there is such humility and curiosity required to do that.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And when it's being done, it's like magic. And I
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: love it. And I feel like I'm really adding value there.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: That's yeah. You mentioned your, your three, your three values
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: are what? Curiosity.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Curiosity and humility. I keep them on my desk. I
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: don't forget. Yeah.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: You also have a, don't you have a doll around
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: your desk? Yeah.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Alice in Wonderland.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland. Yeah. There you go.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Curiosity.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Who gave that to you? I always liked this story.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Did a family member give that to you? Who gave
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that to you?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Probably my mom.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: When I was little. Your mom?
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I had this set of Alice dolls,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: but this is the one I like the most.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I was listening to a podcast you were talking about.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: You were talking about that and how she helps you
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: remember the curiosity piece.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: She does because, you know, look, I live in New
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: York City, which can be a very fast-paced city where
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: people feel like they need to have all the answers.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: And I just don't think you hire well if you
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: act like you, I don't have all the answers, you know?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: We learn as we go and we have to like
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: pause and do it right. And I think that it's,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: you have to come from a place of curiosity, yeah.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Like ask questions and seek wisdom and it's, I don't know.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: To me that's, arrogance just doesn't win in this space
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: when it comes to hiring.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've, I think I know how
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: important people and hiring the right people are, right? That's
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that's part of who we are and exist and what
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: we do. But I never, I don't think I connected
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: how important, how important that the role of finding the
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: right person to find the right person. Yeah. Right. Right. when,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: when it, when I read your, you know, your bio
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: and I was going over it, I was like, okay,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: an HR pro that does just does HR. Cause you know,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I get pitched. I get pitched recruiting all the time. Right.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no shortage of people calling me and saying, Hey,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: let us help you. Um, you know, I, I get, uh,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: two or three phone calls a day from that. And
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: I get two or three venture capitalists calling me going,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: are you for sale? You know? So, um, I guess what, uh,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I've seen so many of them that are probably the
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: specialists I see are in sales, maybe in tech. Yeah. Right.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: And maybe I just, I'm not in the, I'm not
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: in it deep enough to know, Oh, there's all kinds.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: There's just HR specialists everywhere. But you were the first
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: person I had ever come across. It was like, I
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: know I do HR and HR only. Yeah. And you know,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, wow, that is, it was just an
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: indication to me that like, and it made me think
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: about it more that how important it that role is
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: in my organization. Yeah. And to be honest, really transparent,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I've had somebody in HR in my company, and they
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: were good and got me to here, and I'm not
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: sure that's the same person to get me to there.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah. And when I got a hold of this company,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: we had to go through a massive culture shift and
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: change and really change the kind of underpinnings of the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: people dynamics of this business, which is incredibly important to me.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: And I really had someone who could help me understand
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: from the staff's perspective, all the dials I needed to
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: be turning. It wasn't just, I'll just pay everybody more.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: That'll make them, it was just so many little dials Um,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: and she did a really great job. And then, um,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: and then she, she, she left. I didn't, I, you know,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: I would have, she'd been here forever. She, she left.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: And now, you know, as I contemplate that role, I
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: contemplate what, you know, what's next for me, you know,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I'm going to begin, you know, hiring different types of people. Um,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you know, we're moving so fast. Um, um, you know,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and I, and I realized how important, um, Because I've
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: got a handful of friends who are recruiters and they're
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: all like, oh, no, I'll help you find somebody. Right. Right.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: They're like generalists. Hey, you know.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Of course. I always remember I had a client. It
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: must have been like 2014, 15. It was when the
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: market was really booming. They invited in a bunch of
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: their vendors for like a lunch. And I was sitting
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: at the table with fellow recruiters and they were like,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: what do you do? I was like, I specialize in
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: placing experienced HR pros, mostly in New York. And then
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: like the rest of the table was like, I just
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: work on whatever I can get my hands on.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know how that, how does that work? Like
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: my clients like that I'm an expert in something, but.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think as you were talking to, I
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: was realizing that we generally aren't listening to the candidate
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: feedback as a whole. So we all hear horror stories of,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: you know, our friends who interview and the process was awful.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: And I took me seven months and I finally got
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: a rejection.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know many executives who just pause and ask
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: their internal recruiter or their external recruiter or the candidate
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: that they hired, like, how is your process with us
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: comparative to what you experienced elsewhere? What could we have
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: done better? Did you notice anything that was kind of annoying? Like,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: tell me again, let me seek the information because maybe
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: we can use that going forward.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: And you'd be amazed.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: People are happy to share. And again, it's not a
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: scary conversation. It's a helpful conversation.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And so when I start a search with a new client,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I'll always say, do you want me to share the
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: feedback I receive? Because I'm going to receive feedback. And
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: to your point of curiosity, the best managers are like, absolutely. Like,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: let's gently tell me, of course, and I will, but
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: tell me where we can be doing better.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of your value propositions in life
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and business is your willingness to collect information and shoot straight. Yeah.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Am I right? Thank you. Yeah. Oh, I didn't want
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: to hear that. I suck.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I need to be better.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Laura told me I suck really bad at this.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: That's very insightful information. I feel like an early manager
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: of mine used to say to me, you say things
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: to clients I would never say. I'm like, well, I
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: don't know what else to do.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Do you stay connected to some of the people that
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you hire?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I can imagine that it's become like a It's kind
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: of circular, especially when you, when you crush it, you know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: when someone gets somewhere and they can be.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Your client later on, they might need your help somewhere else.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: It's a long game. I mean, I'll get texts or
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: emails from people that I placed 15 years ago that
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: are like, I might need your help with something, you know?
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If you, if you think about those people who
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: are crushing it, what's the, What's the like it factor?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: You're like, oh, you know, I know like the group
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I know, like what's the what's the it factor for them?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: What do you think makes them?
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I think we nailed it. We've nailed it so much
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: in this conversation around humility and curiosity. And I think
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: it's worth just repeating in the sense that the people
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: who aren't crushing it are arrogant and they're in a
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: fixed mindset. They believe they know everything and they don't
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: really want to learn anything else.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: On both sides, really. On both sides. It's the CEO
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: who thinks that.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: And HR and the candidate, right? All three players, the
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: internal recruiter, like everyone involved with the hiring process. Think
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: about it. It's often an internal recruiter, sometimes an external,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the candidate, the hiring manager, and the interviewers. I mean,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: it could be five, six people that we're talking about.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And if they're arrogant and they're stuck in fixed mindset,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: it's a disaster. If everybody involved can just stay humble
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and grounded and curious and try to just learn as
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: we go. You know, those are my favorite experiences because
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: people are usually pleasantly surprised. Somehow the candidate is delighted.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: The hiring manager is happy. It's hard to teach that.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And I think the only way I kind of try
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: is just by expressing how important it is and it's worth,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: it's worth a shot.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I read your stuff and I came across
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: one post and I was like, I actually sent my
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: chief operating officer a letter or an email, and I
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: just said, hey, can you send me all of our
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: job ads? Yeah.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Like, what are we posting?
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: You had pointed out some, like, code language. And I
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: was like, I wonder how much code language we have
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: in our job postings where I've got people like Laura
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: telling people, run from some company that says– about.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Feedback, like asking the people you interview that you have
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: a good rapport with, like, what'd you think of the ad?
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: How did it look? And, you know, people are really
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: happy to tell you when they're an expert in something,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: you know, actually my favorite advertisement was this company's I'll
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: forward it to you so you can get inspired. Or
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: my favorite interview process was with this company. And this
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: is why, I mean, that's how I learn. I'm constantly
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: asking like, what was your favorite? What was it like?
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: You can't believe how many hiring managers are on their phone.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: They're distracted and they don't know they're, Nobody's ever said
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: to them, just notice if you're texting, like it sounds simple,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: but you have to be taught it sometimes. Like this
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: is important because in that 30 minutes, that person is
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: judging everything you're doing. And so being super present and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: really listening and really engaging matters. So a lot of
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: times it's like the feedback that I have to give
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: is subtle. It's not massive stuff, but it's little changes
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: that are going to make a big impact.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Have you ever, your LinkedIn profile is so good. Thank you.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Have you ever, like, looked at a– did you ever
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: get a LinkedIn profile, like, from somebody? When I think
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: about an HR person, I'm like, oh, well, these are
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: the experts in HR. I mean, they're the experts in
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: LinkedIn because they spend so much time on it probably.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Have you ever just looked at a LinkedIn profile and went, oh,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: my God. Oh, jeez. What was she thinking or what
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: was he thinking? Like– You know.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: The biggest LinkedIn blunder I see?
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: What is it? I want to know.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: It's remarkable. Yeah, this is important. People put their email
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: address because contact information is listed. They will have their
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: email address from a job they had six jobs ago.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: So if I email them now to be like, are
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: you looking for.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: A new job?
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: It's going to their old colleague five years ago. And
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I think they must be missing so much communication just
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: by not updating their they're contacted or putting their own
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Gmail on it or whatever. Like, why do you have your,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: if you're going to put your work info, then it
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: has to be updated. You just don't update it.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I think that answer is, as I get to know you,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I think that answer is so you, because you're not,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'll ask her this question and maybe
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: she'll have a funny story about maybe something funny. And
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: you immediately go to, you know, here's what's broken. And
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: people could talk more and this should be fixed. I
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: think you're a fixer.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a fixer because you know what it is? I don't, I,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I'm all for humor too. And I love a good story.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And I just, I'm like, let's not shame people for
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: the mistakes they're making. Let's actually tell them like, okay,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: you made a mistake. It's like what I would say
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: to a kid, like, all right, what are we going
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: to do differently next time?
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: It's like, I, and I tell, and that's all we
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: can do is keep pointing it out and letting people know.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: And I think that these bad hires and these bad
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: experiences are all opportunities to do it better.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's one part of the show is to, is,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: is to, you know, have a little fun around the
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: bonfire a little bit. Maybe these are our bonfire stories,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: but in the end, you know, we all, we all,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: you know, we know what makes life tough for, for,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: you know, people who live in this space. And, but we,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: you know, we all want to be better. We all
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: want to do a great, we all want to avoid
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: those things.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And you know what I remind people? Your bad hire
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: might be somebody else's best hire. I mean, it's a
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: wild thing. I have worked with candidates and I'm like,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine anyone wants to hire this person. But
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: they land places and they do really well. And there's
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: just a match for everybody. Back to your dating analogy.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: There truly is. It would not work for me. I
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: could not work with this individual. But believe it or not,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: somebody else is thriving.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: We had a guy on the show who's got this
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: little He's got this great production company. He now owns it.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: It's growing. And he was telling a bit of his journey, right?
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: And so he was telling a story about bad hires.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: And the story he told was that he was the
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: bad hire. Yeah. Right? And it was really a great
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: story about how he wanted this one role so bad
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: because this was the ego role. This one role was like,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: this is the one that you want, right? And so
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: he was on and on and on about it. And, but,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: and he went after it and it just, but it
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: didn't fit his, it really wasn't what he was great at. Right.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: So a mentor gives him the role. He completely smokes
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: it bad, like just blows it up, crashes, you know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: mentor has to come in behind him, fix it. You know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: they nearly lose a huge client over it. And, you know,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: that goes out to dinner and does some coaching with him. Right. And,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: But he put him on a path. You know, it
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: helped define who he was. And I was like, you know,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: not every bad hire is a reflection of the person
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: in terms of who they are. Sometimes it's a reflection
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: of just an it's just an ill fit. Right. Yeah.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: And and it and so some are just terrible, crazy
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: people have lost their mind kind of stories and others are.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Just a misalignment. And this was a great misalignment story
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: that just, you know, one as a leader reminded me
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: that when I find people that I feel like aren't
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: a fit, you know, I thought they were great. I
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: hired them because I thought they were great. There was
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: something there that made me think they're great. Right. And
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I want them. And then they don't perform. And so
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I often try to take responsibility for that. I'm like,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I did something wrong. I missed something. I had something
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: not right here. I, you know, either now before in
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: the selection or now and when it's running, this is,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I own this. And so I just kind of made
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: a point to say, make sure to coach these people
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: and mentor these people, you know, as we try to
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: make a change, even if that's a change to somewhere else,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: you know, A hundred percent.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And it goes back to my point about asking the
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: candidate what they need and want. Like you might fall
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: in love with a candidate because you think they're going
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: to be perfect for your team. But if they're not
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: feeling excited about you as their leader, or for some
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: reason they picture a different environment that they would thrive in,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: it's going to feel off, you know, like, because I
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: always say there's HR directors who want to work at
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: big New York investment banks that are super corporate. And
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: there are HR people that thrive in startups and everything
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: in between. And I love that part. I think it's good.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: that we you know not one is bad or good
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: or whatever yeah um it's so much you know the
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: other piece we haven't touched on that we could talk
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: hours about another time it's just like self-awareness like so
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: much of all of this is knowing who you are
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: and admitting it you know we are a corporate investment
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: bank and we're very boring and stuffy and we follow
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: a ton of rules okay you'll find the right people
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: but don't act like you're a startup it's gonna that's
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: gonna be a problem right Right. You read the.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Startup ads and they're so inspiring. You go, we should
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: need to sound like that. We need to sound like that.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: That's not what it's like to work here, but.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I remember like a decade ago, some company said to me,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: we're like the Google of insurance businesses. I'm like, no,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: you're not. It's insurance is not thrilling. It might be
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: a great place to work and very stable, but you know,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: a high cutting edge tech company, it is not.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think authenticity is so important, and I guess
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: that goes back to my straight shooting. I just think
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: own who you are as a candidate, own who you
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: are as a hiring manager, know your limitations, know your weaknesses,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: and then you can kind of tackle it all.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: But the bravado is where everybody gets messed up. They
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: bring all these, I don't know, obstacles.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Where do you live at in New York?
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: In Manhattan.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: You did?
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: On the east side.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: East side staffing.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: All right. Yeah. Where are you? I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Love it. Just north of Charlotte. Little Lake town. Great. Suburb. Good. Yeah.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: It's good stuff. What you, you would, uh, you would
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: love it here. I would. You would. It's very green.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Breaks from city living for sure.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. It's very green. It's very beautiful. Am I right? Uh, uh,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Nathan was in, uh, You met Nathan. Nathan, he was in,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I guess, close to Silicon Valley in California for a
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: good bit, five or six years. And so I got
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: him to move back to the East Coast.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: That's smart.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Backwards. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, he was a good hire. He
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: was a good egg. Laura, that was great. I loved it.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: It was great talking to you. See, I know why
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you're just so good at this. Thank you. Thank you.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Hey, Laura, we've recorded just a couple of these kind
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: of like in this format. And what I've been asking,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: I guess, in closing, and you've kind of already covered
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: just throughout our conversation, but just one piece of advice
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: that you'd give to somebody who's in hiring, whether it's
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: like to somebody who's like you, who has a very
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: specific role, or just anybody who's building a team right now,
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: what would that advice be?
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, notice when you're getting in your own way when
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: you're hiring. So notice if you're making it harder than
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: it needs to be, or you're feeling a certain way,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: as the kids would say about hiring, just identify what's
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: going on because you can make it better. You can
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: learn how to do it better, but you've got to
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: be willing to kind of catch what might be going wrong.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: And there's always room for improvement. There really is.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to take your advice and ask. as
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: we get better at doing this podcast after being on here,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: what feedback could you give Nathan and I to say, Hey,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: here's how you could do a better job.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: No, you guys were amazing. This was really fun. I'm
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: excited to see kind of what clips you could pull out.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I think that it's, you guys have very
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: much similar personalities to me, which is just nice. There's
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: just a genuine kindness in your company and your, and
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: it's just, it shows. And even though it's, there's a
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: edge to this content. I think it, to your point,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: it comes with kindness. It's not meant to be, you.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Know, mean.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: It's funny.
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: Cause some of the, uh, the only, some of the
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: negative feedback we've gotten is like, Oh, I don't, I
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: don't want to join in on like, you know, laughing
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: at people's misfortune that they're fine. And it's like, if
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: you actually listen to the show, like, no, like, you know,
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: we've said there's, There's some bad stories.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: One of the themes is how bad I love good
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: stories that have a positive ending.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I love positive ending stories. So if you're going to
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: tell me something bad happened, tell me the guy got
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: a great job and something good happened. I agree.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: I think you're doing a good job of that, but
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: it's important. I think that's important too. It's so funny.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: I don't like, I'm not like an Oprah person. But
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: she came in my TikTok feed just recently, actually. And
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: she said early on her show, they booked like, I
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: forget what the story was, but it was like an
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: awful story. And she felt like it was kind of salacious.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: She didn't like the like, she felt gross about it
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: after like, why did we do this? We brought somebody
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: on showcasing their negative stuff. So she said to her
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: producers after, we need to be clear on what our
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: intention is, because if we're going to bring on people
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: with very tragic stories, I want to know what our
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: purpose is. Are we trying to like just put them
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: on the stage or are we trying to help them?
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Are we trying to like, and she said going forward
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: after that, every time they booked a show, they all
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: talked about like, here's who's coming on and here's kind
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: of what our intention is with this thing. And I
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: thought that was beautiful because it's easy to get sometimes
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: wrapped up in the gossip, like all of us. And that's,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: I think that's what helped me when I started offering
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: like training and coaching, because it was usually clients just
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: bitching to me of like, our internal recruiter is terrible.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: And I would like, I was used to just going
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: with that, like kind of that's okay. And that's what
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: we do. And, and it's, I, something just switched in
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: me of like, hold on, we can make it better.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: We don't have to just like hate them. We can,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: So I think that's, as you move forward, just kind
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: of like, okay, we can talk about how awful the
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: person was, but what was the lesson or what was the... upside?
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: So that, yeah. Yeah.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Because also, obviously if someone's mentally ill.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: We had one the other day, Laura, that, that I know, Nathan,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: I know you know what I'm talking about. Like, it
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: was like midnight and I was working and I was,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: and I scrolled through TikTok and I saw one that
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: we did. And I saw, cause a lot of times
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I don't see the final edited version, you know, the
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: clip ups, you know, they do all that. And I
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: just started. And so, and I saw it and there was, it,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: it was, the story was about someone who got injured
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: the first day of work. Right. And made this crazy
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: decision to like bike 10, 15 miles to the hospital, right.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Instead of calling on one. And I, you know, in
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: the moment we're talking and you go, yeah, that's crazy.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: And you're, and you kind of make fun of it. Right.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: You're like, Oh, that's crazy. You know? And I, I
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: called Nathan or I sent him a text that night
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: and I said, take that off. Good. Take that tonight.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Like get to it tonight and take it off. Because
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I don't feel good about what I said. I don't
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: want to be seen as somebody.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: That's not you. That's not your values.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't. I was like, I feel like I
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: can have fun about someone who freaked out at a job,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: but I'm not going to have fun at the expense
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: of someone being injured. Like that's not happening. I don't,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I'd have no idea how that got past me in
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: the moment, but seeing it clipped and put there, I
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that's, that's not me. And I don't,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't want to answer that question, you know?
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: No, I agree. It's a fine line. I think that–
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I think when we hear these horror stories, they're important
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: to share so people don't feel alone, that they're not
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: the only one who's had this.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: All the reasons.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: But then it's like, what are we doing with it?
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: What are we doing about it?
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: That's really– I think that if you guys can keep–
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: and we can keep exploring that together, but I think
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: it's important that people know, like, it's– there is no shame.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: It's like, what can you do better next time? Like
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: what was the lesson learned? And maybe that's a good
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: question to start asking, you know, the host too. So
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: what'd you learn from that? What would you do differently
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: next time? It is, it is tricky, but yeah, I
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: find like, even when I'm at those events, like you're saying, Ken,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and that starts happening like lately, I'm like, so what
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: are we doing about it?
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Cause I, well, that's, that's you. You're the fixer.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: After a while, it's like, yeah.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm the fixer. That makes sense. That is
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: totally my role, but people need fixing. So I'm happy
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: to keep helping.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Not necessarily people, but the process you're wondering what's, what's,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: why is that happening? You know, it's, it just, it,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: it pours from you. This, this system, systems, high level
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: thinking comes, comes, you know, when talking to you, you
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: realize that, you're less transactional, more systemic in terms of
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: how to, you know, and I think you're in a
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: world where transactions occur and you have to live it.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: You live by the transactions, but you've got to find
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: a way to.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Well, everybody wants an internal recruiting team that's really strategic. Like,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: and that's where I'll say it. I'm like, I think
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: the reason you often go to a headhunter is because
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: we are more strategic because we just by nature are
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: looking at things a little bit from the outside.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: So that's why I have such joy training them because
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I'm like, they just don't know how to do this.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't know. They're thrown in there and just looking
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: at resumes all day, but they're not really sure exactly
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: what they're doing.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Well, this has been awesome. I appreciate you.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you for the time. I'm excited to see the clips.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you'll find some stuff. Thanks for digging through it, Nathan.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: That's your job.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: And we'll keep you in the loop on all of it.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: We'll let you know when everything's up.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll definitely stay in touch.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Let's keep talking.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Sounds good. See you later.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks for your time, guys. Talk to you soon.