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Reliability in action: Littleton’s Hendrix ACS success story · Factor This

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're talking about, you know, distribution automation and wireless sensors and communications and uh blockchain and all of these other, you know, high-level kind of sexy concepts.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is, you know, the vast majority of your system is still, you know, poles and wire.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Don't build your system on a house of cards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can have the smartest grit in the world, um, but if you build it on that house of cards, you're really just it's gonna give you the information that it's an inherently unreliable system.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Utilities are facing mounting pressure to improve reliability and reduce power outage frequency while meeting rising electricity demand.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's no easy pill.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: For the Littleton Electric Light and Water Departments, Hendricks Aerial Cable Systems by Marman Utility have become an important part of building a stronger, more resilient overhead network for today and tomorrow.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode of the Factor This Podcast, I'm joined by Ted Gardner, application engineer for overhead solutions at Marman Utility, and David Ketchen, Assistant General Manager of LELWD.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Together, they'll explore how electrical utility providers can strengthen reliability through thoughtful distribution system design, discuss the role Hendrix ACS plays in Littleton Electric's reliability strategy, and share practical insights for utilities facing today's evolving infrastructure challenges.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ketchen reveals the factors that led Littleton to adopt Hendrix ACS, the performance improvements the utility has experienced since doing so, and how the system has reduced outages in tree-heavy and neighborhood service areas.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Together, Ted and David will examine the operational benefits of improved reliability, readiness for greater demand, and long-term system hardening that supports both utility operations and customer satisfaction.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: As Hendrix celebrates 75 years of serving the utility industry, this conversation will also highlight the value of engineering expertise, collaborative partnerships, and proven field performance in helping utilities modernize their overhead distribution systems.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're a utility executive, an engineer, operations professional, or public power leader, this episode promises practical insights into strengthening distribution system reliability and building a more resilient electric grid.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know my name and face by now, I'm Paul Gurkey, content director over at Factor This.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: The other names in your program you might be more unfamiliar with.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start the show with some introductions.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Ted, we'll begin with you.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell our viewers and listeners a little about yourself and what you bring to the topic today?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, Paul.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks uh for uh for having us this afternoon.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, like you said, my name is Ted Gardner.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an application engineer for uh our Hendrix Aerial Cable Systems um and Marman Utility.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I've been with Marmin for just over 15 years now, but um have spent a little over 35 years in the electric utility industry, both working directly for utilities as well as on the manufacturing side, primarily on the sales and and marketing side.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I've got an engineering background and I do a lot of technical support and application support for all of our field salespeople and directly with with our customers.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to answer and provide any technical expertise that I can, and that's why I'm why I'm with you today.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So my name's Dave Ketchen.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um as you said, I'm the assistant general manager at the Littleton Electric Light and Water Departments.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've been here for about 11 years now.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um LELWD is a municipally owned uh public utility here.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: We we provide electricity, water, and wastewater to two communities, Littleton and Boxboro.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we work under an elected board of commissioners who oversee the department operations, and um it goes down from there.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I started on the electric side as an engineer and sort of worked my way up through management, but have worn a lot of different hats in my time here.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and my time has really been helped out by us utilizing the Hendrix products.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something I'm I'm really excited to talk about today.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can't wait to get into the weeds on the operational benefits with both of you, but let's start zoomed out a little bit for our viewers and listeners who might not be as familiar with the technology we're talking about.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: We've certainly seen them around, but what do we know about improving reliability via covered conductor systems?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: How can covered conductor and aerial cable systems in general help the utilities that are listening to this program address some of the common reliability challenges we face today?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a it's a covered overhead system.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, traditional bare overhead systems that are exposed to the elements, exposed to vegetation are inherently unreliable because of that exposure.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, what we do is we have a cover conductor uh that allows us to not only make it very resistant to tree and wildlife contact, um, but also weather resistant to to wind and ice loading.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it also allows us to move the system in a very close proximity.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a compact solution that's um that's supported by a heavy-duty uh messenger.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's very resistant to you know tree contact, you know, trees falling on the line, trees coming in contact, um, but also you know, severe weather systems, ice, uh wind loading, um, and heavy snows as well.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um it what to a certain extent it takes um you know, you get the the reliability of an underground system, um, but way closer to the price of a of an overhead system and the accessibility of an overhead system.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: In comparison to the covered wire is is what we call bare um wire.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's essentially just installing a um you know a wire in the air with no jacket, um no protection on it.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of utilities um installed that you know early on before covered wire technology was around.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And for whatever reason, have either, you know, for you know, various reasons, have stuck with that uh bare wire configuration in their system.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but reliability challenges, you know, drive people to look for for other other solutions.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's typically what what happens in in these circumstances.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the primary solution we're talking about today is the Hendricks Aerial Cable System or ACS, you might hear us use that as a shorthand.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh improving system resilience by reducing the outages we've been talking about, anything from severe weather to contact with vegetation, as Ted alluded to, to some other common overhead distribution challenges.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can you guys talk a little bit about what those challenges might be and how it supports faster restoration when those outages do occur?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: One of the other things about the compact configuration of a spacer cable system is we don't take up a ton of room on the pole itself.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it allows you to put you know multiple circuits in a much more space, uh much smaller space on the pole.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's more efficient use of the same facilities.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, obviously heavily treed areas are a common application, but once you really look at the efficient use of the pole spacing, um that opens the door to a lot of other you know applications such as um you know multiple circuits, uh, you know, substation exits.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we can get by uh by installing a larger messenger and we can, you know, we can design longer spans, um, but basically fitting in you know much more equipment in a much tighter tighter space on the pole.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when it comes to the vegetation, you know, resistant stuff, and that's where a lot of the reliability comes from, because as we know, you know, vegetation contact is still the most common cause of outages.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's really what you know utilities like Littleton focused on, you know, using spacer cable systems uh to help them with that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Dave, can you talk a little bit more about that?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we we love uh we love being in central Massachusetts covered, you know, covered by by forestry and um all of the trees and especially being being a part of um you know two pretty historic communities that don't want us to you know just just flatten all the trees down um to make our system a hundred percent reliable.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's just not an option.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we've sort of figured out over the years that um before we installed this this Hendrix spacer cable solution, when we had this bare open wire in our system and you'd have a storm roll through, you'd have you know multiple trees come down, multiple tree limbs come down, and when they would make contact with with the wires, um they're they're not braced by anything.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: They typically they typically break whatever whatever they hit.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So whether it be the the wires, the poles.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when you're when you're responding to those calls during during that situation, um, it's a much different um different fix than what it is with this compact aerial spacer cable system, as as Ted was saying.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So rather than responding and and you know, splicing together wires, resetting poles everywhere, now with this uh Hendrix aerial cable system, the the spacer cable system with the with the high tension messenger.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so basically it's a diamond formation and and on top of is that high tension um wire that that protects all the all the cables that are that are carrying power.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so a tree will come down and make contact with that high tension wire and and you know in a lot of circumstances will bounce off or or completely lean on that wire while everything stays energized and and nothing breaks.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um you get the occasional pull break here or there that you have to fix from it, but um the the reliability aspect of of it is completely flipped on its head.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I live in a a place in New Jersey, Dave and Ted, that has a lot of trees very close to power lines.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I deal with it in my community.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have this summer with trees down on lines, and uh, you see firsthand just how damaging that vegetation can be when it's in close contact, let alone when it's in full contact.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: David, were you surprised by the performance of of the Hendrix ACS the first time you saw a tree come down on that high tension wire and you didn't have to go go and fix the whole thing?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: A hundred percent.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that I mean that the the you know the first couple storms that I I was in involved in here, um we had massive, massive tree damage, one massive trees fall on the lines, and we have some pretty um pretty crazy pictures of of trees leaning on the lines and literally sagging the wires all the way down to the ground, still energized.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, we get there and and then we have much more control over the situation and and customers haven't lost power um, you know, yet.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we have to kill power to make the fix and and do it safely.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: But like I said, it's a it's a controlled manner and it happens much more quickly that way.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: So um I'm always surprised to see just how strong and how large the trees are that actually fall on the Hendrix wire without the that you know the messenger breaking or or even damaging poles in some circumstances.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about the community you serve, Davis, having uh a lot of uh legacy tree growth.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's an area where your preservation of wildlife uh flora and fauna is is paramount to that community.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what specifically about the Hendrix ACS in your use of it have you found to be beneficial, particularly where you're based in doing all this work?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, you just brought up um your your sort of tree issues in New Jersey, and and that that's very similar to what we face up here.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, we do the best we can to have a uh we call it a line clearance trimming program, but but to to trim trim the trees away from from the wires um during the summer as as best as possible and and really prevent any tree contacts that isn't from isn't caused from a a falling tree or a branch that's just caused from vegetation growing into the lines.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know you can't always you can't always get everything.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: So in the past, before utilizing this this Hendrix system, and we'd have those bare cables on the poles, and and if you had uh a tree contact that would land between you know two phases on on the pole or a phase in the ground, um, that would automatically cause an outage.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas this this covered cable, um, and Ted could speak to more of the applications that that they have as well, but this covered cable really um prevents an outage from from happening in that circumstance.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: So now again, we're able to, you know, not experience the outage event and keep everyone's lights on, but at the same time go go and take care of the issues, you know, in a controlled manner.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk to clients, I mean what really what we're trying to do is is to get them to be more proactive uh when it comes to their system.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, uh it's a different application, but when we talk about wildfire mitigation, for example, it's really more of a proactive approach versus being you know reactive.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we talk a lot about you know newer technologies and sensing technologies that are out there, distribution automation, you know, smart grid, all that kind of stuff.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and really, you know, the idea being that you know you can have all of the technology and and all of the telemetry and data in the world, but you know, if your if your base system um is still you know unreliable, it's a lot of exposed conductor, um, and and you know, you get in contact with a lot of trees, you get a lot of momentary and and sustained outages.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: All that technology is really telling you is you have an unreliable system.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the idea behind you know cover conductor in general or spacer cable specifically is let's build the system stronger up front and then and then manage the outages um from there.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and to David's point, you know, if you can schedule an outage to remove a tree or to fix a bracket or or a damaged pole or something like that, it's way easier on your reliability indices, um, and it's a much safer way to do it in a much more controlled environment.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's way more ideal, even you know, responding to those outages that can still happen.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: But um, the idea really being let's prevent them in the in the first place.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think every utility and grid operator would like to have the most resilient possible system that they could engineer, but oftentimes that's just not the practical real-world situation that we live in.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's some complex arithmetic that folks are gonna have to do on the back of a piece of paper somewhere to figure out how they can make their dollars and cents work for their system.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: David, when Littleton is evaluating things like that and trying to figure out how to harden their system and limit outages and provide the most bang for the buck for the ratepayers, uh, what goes into that arithmetic and uh how do all roads lead to Rome in this instance?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you you're right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is a complex issue, but um you kind of stated in your question, um, uh how do we factor in the the ratepayers to all of this?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: So uh reliability is, you know, the second most important thing to us, and and I would say, you know, low rates is is the most important thing.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to, you know, improve our reliability in a in a strategic manner, manner that doesn't break the bank, um, but but you also see the benefits pretty quickly.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you really have to evaluate how your how your distribution system is is set up.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um like here in Littleton, we have we have just one substation for our two communities here.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's relatively easy for us to understand the priorities because um typically you build from you know your power source, your substation out into the system and and make improvements closer to the to the substation and and work your way out um to to the end of your distribution system.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's typically the the strategy that you want to implement.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then you have to look at you know getting the most bang for your buck.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you're like I said, you're not breaking the bank.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you wanna you wanna try and get your um you know main feeder circuit like spine areas, the most critical areas, um hardened first, and then sort of pick away at at the the you know the the other troublesome areas, but maybe maybe lar less critical areas um and and spread that out over a five to ten year period and and just continuously put money into improving your your system strength.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Ted, when when Littleton is evaluating where they want to bolster their system uh and make the most out of those investments, where do you see Hendrix ACS fitting nicely into those conversations?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just like Dave mentioned, I mean we we really try to get customers to kind of you know not get so focused on first cost, you know, if you if you compare cover conductor, you know, by the foot to you know bear ACSR or bear, you know, your typical bear overhead wire, you know, we're never gonna win, you know, those that that that contest.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what we really try to do is is if you're you know you're in a spot where it's gonna be required to uh to still be overhead, um, you know, look at the you know, not only the total installed cost, what equipment it's gonna take to install it, um, but over the next, you know, say 20, 30 years, you know, how much is it gonna cost you to maintain that system?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where you know spacer cable really shines is I don't want to say it eliminates a lot of your O and M cost, but it significantly reduces it.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you're still gonna need to trim the trees, um, but they don't need nearly as much, you know, clearance.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can still have conductors hanging, you know, wires or or trees, vegetation hanging over top of the of the circuits, um, even coming in, you know, momentary contact, and that's not gonna bother the system.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: You really just don't want it to be in contact with it 100% of the time.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's gonna, you know, significantly reduce that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're looking at, like I said, you know, 15, 20, you know, 25 years, you know, how much is are are your tree trimming costs can be reduced?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some utilities are on you know, three-year trimming cycle, some are on five or seven, you know, and if you can push those out by a significant margin, you know, that's gonna help you in the long run.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: If it's in a situation where you know maybe you're considering you know uh going with underground uh versus a spacer cable system, uh, you really want to look at the total installed cost.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, you know, with underground, you're you're really you know eliminating or or significantly reducing your OM costs over time.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but the installed cost can be a lot higher.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the conductor itself can be more expensive, and then the equipment to install that, if it has to be directional board because you can't trench it all in.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then there's the the situation where you know maybe you need to add capacity down the road, that becomes really, really difficult when it comes to underground.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, as things are growing so fast, especially in some of these commercial industrial areas, if that system needs to be upgraded, you know, in the next 20 years, you know, how much is that going to cost you versus how easy it would be to add an additional circuit on the overhead side?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, it'd be much easier to do it with spacer cable, you know, versus uh versus underground.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So looking at all of those different things and and like Dave mentioned, really looking at your return on investment.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, every utility, I don't care if it's an investor-owned or a small co-op or municipal, uh, you're gonna have to build a business case as to why spacer cable makes more sense.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I like to say if it's gonna cost you more money, you know, don't do it.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to be looking at the right cost, whether it's, like I said, total installed cost um or OM costs over the next 30 years.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there's current TED problems and then there's future TED problems.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what you want to do is limit the future TED problems as much as possible.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: David, when you were thinking about future TED's issues, um, what what led you to adopting Hendrix ACS where you did on your system?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um going going all the way back to before I was actually uh employed here was uh a pretty uh major ice storm in the New England area in 2008.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: There was an ice storm about two weeks before Christmas.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you're talking, you know, a lot of people obviously doing shopping, uh planning their holiday parties, uh everything you could imagine.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um this would be the worst time to have a storm and and have uh a long duration outage.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: But this storm brought, you know, um multiple inches of rain, and then there was sort of a flash freeze overnight, and what what was left was about of uh just about an inch coating of of ice on on tree limbs, um, and then somewhere around that uh uh ice coating on on the on the cables as well.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um now you're just Dealing with cables that are sagging and the the triulums that are breaking left and right, trees falling everywhere.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: And at that point, so Littleton is just north of Boxboro, and Littleton has our substation.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So our substation feeds through Littleton into Boxboro and stops, you know, at the south side of Boxboro.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, probably about 75% of Littleton at that point was um did have uh the Hendricks spacer cable installed.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe about 5% of Boxboro had it had it installed.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: So in Boxbro, we had that that bare, what we call open wire configuration.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just in the three-phase areas, there's just three, three wires attached to the top of the pole, bare wire, you know, running throughout the the forest.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so these trees came down in multiple locations and wreaked havoc on Littleton and Boxbro.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: They experienced the same the same storm.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but our utility was able to get, you know, the majority of power back up and running in Littleton in less than a day.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um Boxboro went uh almost a week.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we had a lot of uh angry Boxboro um customers, you know, lined up outside of our door around that time.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and just just doing the the you know post-storm briefing and and after everything that the utility experienced, it was clear that that we needed to make it uh uh improvement quickly.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and everyone agreed from from, like I said, our board of commissioners down through our management down to to our engineering and and operations teams.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we utilized that storm as a as a springboard to really plan uh implementation of this uh aerial cable system in our system.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: We um we spent about a million dollars a year over the course of five years to to really fully build out our system with this with this Hendricks cable.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um we even used contractors to help us do it, which which is very frowned upon from you know all of our linemen that that we employ here who take a lot of pride in in our system.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um but a lot of that that pride was put to the side when you know we we were kind of up against a a timetable and and completing this, you know, along with all of our other other system projects and everything like that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that storm really defined um our path forward.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then like I said, when I when I started in 2015, um this project had been completed.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I stepped in and on my second day, there was there was a little storm that came through here.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And just going out and talking to customers, they they were so appreciative of of how reliable our system is.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and um, you know, I just felt lucky to you know be in a situation like that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I just I want to make that note as well.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't still waiting outside the door this time to congratulate you?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Weird how that happens.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: They come with the pitchforks and the torches, but never with the birthday cakes and the sunshine and the smiles, you know?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, we get cookies every once in a while.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: We do have some good customers out there, definitely.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ted, are they sending you cookies too for keeping their lights on in an indirect way?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, and not, and I'll and I'll tell you in our industry, no news is typically good news.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if we don't hear anything back, um that's usually uh that's usually a good thing.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no kidding.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So now I imagine, Dave, the system, uh the pre-Dave system was the messy one.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now the system under your purview is is much uh is much more reliable.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Has it remained that way in the decade plus since that project was finished?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what have you done to further bolster that system?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been great.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so our our reliability statistics since I've been here have been you know extremely, extremely good compared to uh other municipal utilities in in Massachusetts and then nationally to you know the entire industry, private co-ops, municipalities.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's largely due to that to that build out in 2008.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: But we have been and we still are making additional upgrades utilizing the uh Hendricks aerial cable system.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so so we built out you know the that spine part of our system, the the really critical part after that 2008 storm.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: After that, we started uh you know improving the different laterals, different streets that still had open wire.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So um this this single phase, these single phase residential neighborhoods with open wire, we changed out for uh what Ted can explain as as tree wire, uh uh heavily jacketed cable, um, you know, meant for these applications.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: So the best way for me to differentiate the two is obviously, you know, Hendrix makes both of them, but uh a spacer cable system um is a covered conductor that is supported by the messenger in a very tight, close configuration supported by those diamond-shaped spacers that David was talking about before.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: What we call tree wire is really covered ACSR.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you build it in much more, you know, like your traditional open wire systems, but it is a covered system.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now the the material that we use, the thickness of that covering and everything is identical to uh to spacer cable, but um uh the the core conductor is gonna be steel reinforced ACSR or aluminum versus the all-aluminum conductor.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's mechanically strong enough to support its own weight.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you can string it from pole to pole without the needing the assistance of the the spacers themselves or or the messenger.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um it does have its you know kind of pros and cons that I w that I won't go into now, but you know, that's a pretty common kind of a transition point uh for utilities that are maybe struggling with uh kind of the change going from um a bare wire system to a covered system.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, tree wire is a good kind of stepping stone for that because again, you you install it, um, you design it much like you do a bare wire system.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: All the hardware, you know, tends to be you know very, very similar.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then as you get into a more reliable product, which is the the spacer cable, um, you know, then things change a little.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But um and I want to you know kind of touch on you know another thing that David mentioned was the you know kind of the um the feedback from their operations folks.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this is a you know we are another thing about our industry, you know, we don't like we don't like change.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, especially when it comes to operations um and line workers, you know, if you want to think too far out of the box, they get a little um uncomfortable with that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, our response to that is usually the right tools and the right training.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would encourage if anybody's considering cover conductor spacer cable specifically, you know, work with a manufacturer that has the ability to provide those tools in training because that is a can be a significant hurdle for engineering and and managers to get this a product like this approved, um, is being able to respond to those concerns uh from their linemen.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: What we tend to get into is just the example that David gave, you know, you it's a it's a project-based type product.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of times they're larger scale, so a lot of utilities will use you know contractors to install it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: But when there's a tree or a tree limb that falls on it or a car hits a pole, you know, in the middle of the night, they're gonna call the local, you know, linemen or troubleshooters to go out and fix it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we try to do as much training along parallel as those systems are getting designed and and developed for utility so that um the linemen are trained um and then they've got the right tools on the trucks um to be able to fix it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, just to alleviate some of those those concerns that they have, which are are very valid, quite frankly.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Dave, you said that your grid has become more reliable since adopting Hendrix ACS.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, from the customer perspective, outside of the glowing phone calls, uh how have how have things changed for them?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it more or less the same just with their lights on more frequently?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nothing's really changed from from their standpoint.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you'll you'll encounter from the customer standpoint, just a safety standpoint, you'll you'll encounter a different situation where you know if if we didn't have this Hendrix system and and we had that bare bare wire system, if a tree comes down and and breaks breaks the wire, that wire is gonna be broken on the ground um live in in some circumstances, and that's a safety issue.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then if uh tree comes down and and a pole breaks, but the the Hendrix cable doesn't break, well that that cable is still live as well.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um but doesn't it doesn't you know necessarily look like there's any anything wrong, there's no sparks coming from it.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that that's one thing I just want to throw out there, just uh, you know, if you see a wire down, don't touch it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: But great advice in general.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but aside from that, you know, during throughout this entire changeover and and system hard hardening process, our our customers have been great.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um we've done it all all in a fashion where we've we've scheduled outages um, you know, at least two weeks in advance with with neighborhoods to cut the system over.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we do as much as much work before taking the outage as possible, setting new poles if needed, um, and and really wrecking out the the new poles to um to take the new wire um installation.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: So things like that that we can do ahead of time um to really make this a seamless transition helps out.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, across the industry right now, I feel like there are two real drivers that, regardless of where you work and what you do in energy, you feel the pressures of.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's the affordability part of it, and then there's the related but separate uh demand growth, where electricity growth from onshoring and manufacturing and data centers, uh, et cetera, uh, mass electrification is creating this issue.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile, prices are going up, and it feels like the solution is a way to sort of keep both of those beasts at bay.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Ted mentioned earlier that one advantage of the Hendrix ACS system is it allows you to add circuits as that demand uh increases without having to dig up underground systems, for example.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, David, from your seat at the table, how how do you see the systems that you've integrated into your own as being uh you know important to sort of, as I mentioned, keep those two uh major drivers of the industry at at bay, you know, keeping prices in check and making sure that you're serving that future electricity demand as it comes to you.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the reliability portion, which we've touched on um, you know, to to a great great extent here is is crucial no matter what customer you're serving.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: But once you get these data centers, hospitals, any any critical um customer that you have to feed reliability, reliability is a major uh factor.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: The other factor is like Ted said, um feasibility and then space, space on the poll.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um from a financial standpoint, um underground you know systems are much more expensive than than anything overhead.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um they they typically take longer.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's you know more surprises, it's it's not all straightforward as we view the overhead system installation.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then and then from Ted's point, with the the you know, the the way the the design of the spacer cable is, how compact it is, you literally can put multiple circuits um on a pole uh and and make it much much more tight and compact than you would if you had bare open wire where you'd have to have these incredibly tall poles or you know do something crazy.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so once you get these these critical customers, say a data center wants to wants to come in town um and wants two different distribution circuits, the the cheapest, fastest, most reliable way to do it is to utilize the same pole line in you know some scenarios and just having that ability to to you know do it in a safe manner um really is beneficial.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're fielding a lot of calls, a lot of inquiries about data centers because of just what what David just said.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, a lot of conductors, uh large in size, uh and and it just it's it's just a good application for for spacer cable, you know.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we've been building these types of circuits uh for decades now on the renewable side, for example, you know, exit circuits or collector circuits for you know solar and wind farms.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, we've got a pretty good portfolio of projects that we've done, you know, where there's been you know 10, 12 circuits um mounted to a pole uh of of you know 954 or even up to you know 1431 conductor.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And our capability on that is even is even larger now from our your typical distribution voltages, 15 to 35 kV, all the way up to uh 138 kV.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so just getting more in a in a much tighter space on the pole uh makes it easier access to access um and upgrade.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those um those real estate, you know, accessibility you know constraints are are real, you know, especially when it comes to you know substations and data centers and things like that.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is some premium real estate that they're getting in, and they they're limited on how much they can acquire.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, that that doesn't lend itself to to underground.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really more you know more applicable for for an overhead system.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and then it's multiple pole lines versus one that that has multiple sets of cable on it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's that's uh that's a spacer, perfect application for spacer cable.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: You both touched on this a little bit, but I would love to have you expound a little on how you see utilities adapting their planning um to invest in their distribution systems in ways like this that make the most sense for them long term as they try to anticipate the direction that this load growth uh roller coaster that we're on leads us.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great question, um Paul.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah, that I mean that that unknown is is sort of what's driving the industry right now for um all utilities and and just uh the really you know everyone wants to get to this this you know destination of all of these data centers or um all these different different load profiles on their system and and uh one do we have the power generation to to you know to make that work?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then two, do we do we have the system capacity for these utilities to to make that that work?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and when you're you know you're talking about electric electrification and data centers, um, both are being discussed sort of you know as as hot topic issues today um and and being pushed forward.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And all I can say to either of those is uh from a utility standpoint, we like to be as prepared as possible.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um right now our system capacity is you know, it it's a it's a hard set set point.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's not to say we couldn't invest more into our system um at the request of of a large customer coming into our system.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we then would have to, you know, go forward to the transmission operators and and the the the generation sites um that are part of the grid to see if it's even feasible.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this weird conundrum that I think we find ourselves in where you know we're we're pushing for more and more electricity.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the at the at some point there's a there's a ceiling to all of this.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just to expand on that, I mean they you know, if you if you go to any conference in our industry, you know, here over the last couple of years, you know, they're talking about, you know, reliability, you know, wildfire mitigation, and what are we going to do about all these data centers and all of this this load growth.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, uh and I and I mentioned it before, but you know, just being more proactive, uh and I think a lot of utilities from you know investor owns all the way down to you know public power uh utilities like um like Littleton are being more proactive and they're also looking long term at you know, again, not just first cost, but you know, how much is the life, you know, how much is this system gonna cost us over the over the life cycle?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, being more making it more of a business decision over a longer you know period of time.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, some of the challenges are obviously capacity and and are we gonna get to the capacity like David mentioned.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the other thing is is accessibility um to the equipment.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we get uh we get a lot of questions and concerns about you know how the speed with which they want to install these products or projects and uh and how fast can we design and and and build it.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's uh you know, that's always of great concern.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've we've done a a a pretty good job of of keeping our lead times relatively low, but you know, some of the other, you know, switch gear manufacturers, pole manufacturers, for example, you know, that may be you know 12 to to 24 months out on their lead time, you know, that's to a certain extent.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: If if we have the capacity and then we gotta build it, and then it's like, okay, how fast, how quickly can we get this equipment?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's a that's a big concern um for uh for everybody.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've got one more question that I think both of you might have a good answer for, and that's the perspective of other utilities that are in similar situations to the one that Littleton found itself in uh earlier, and the situations uh that seem to be cropping up more and more frequently, uh driven by electricity demand, as as Ted and David just talked about.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: What advice do you have for those other utilities, considering covered conductor or various aerial cable systems and are trying to bolster their reliability?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think something that all utilities should know, and we didn't really touch upon it here, um, but Hendricks is also an incredible resource when when trying to engineer or or plan for um these upgrades as well.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they've they've helped us numerous times during um engineering planning, also during during uh actual installation, um trying to teach our line workers the the best way to to do things and install things.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's something to consider.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then just sort of piggybacking off of that, um, obviously the the electric utility world, it's a it's a large industry, but we're all facing the same similar problem.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: So don't feel you know afraid to to reach out to your neighbor um for advice or you know, reach out to you know me or any anyone like like me that um has already been through these issues and and kind of has real stories that you can kind of share and and discuss.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's it's a good question.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'll and there's a couple of points I'd I'd make, and and I've kind of already mentioned um both of them, I think, but you know, big thing is you know proac what I call proactive reliability, building a stronger system up front and and in the first place.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is, you know, I've had the opportunity to speak at a couple of smart grid or grid modernization conferences, and and in both cases, I've kind of, you know, I don't want to say kind of struggle, but I kind of questioned, you know, what am I going to get up in front of an audience and talk about a product that's really been around since the mid-1950s at a grid modernization conference, right, where they're talking about, you know, distribution automation and wireless sensors and communications and uh blockchain and all of these other high-level kind of sexy concepts.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is, you know, the vast majority of your system is still, you know, poles and wire.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a colleague of mine um that that that phrased it rather well, and he said, you know, don't build your system on a house of cards.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can have the smartest grit um in the world, um, but if you build it on that house of cards, you're really just it's gonna give you the information that it's an inherently unreliable system.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, this isn't a product that you're going to uh just go ahead and start building everything out of you know, spacer cable and cover conductor, but you know, be strategic about it, make a sound business decision.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and like David mentioned, I mean, we're here to help you uh make those decisions.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of utilities will tend to start with their you know, their worst performing circuits, and they all know you know where those locations are.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um if they don't know them, you know, go into your crew rooms and ask your linemen.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if we were going to make some improvements to our overhead system, you know, where should we start?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll know exactly where to start, where their problems are.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes it's the the first locations that go off in a storm and they're the last ones that come on, and and those are typically good specifications.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: To start.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we try to be of service.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't want to just be a wire and cable manufacturer.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be as much of a service company as a manufacturer.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So and it's not just upfront, you know, installation or or design.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, once it gets built, we want to inspect it and make sure it gets built correctly and then come back and help you out with inspections and and doing ongoing training with your linemen and your engineers and and stuff like that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, you know, life cycle support from from us, both on the engineering and the and the design side.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we really want to that service part to be you know part of the part of the system, right?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a a bunch of hardware and wire and cable, but it's also uh that sort of service component.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um like David said, you know, use us.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we're here to help.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and a lot of utilities are.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking for you know partners um with like for from manufacturing and and consulting firms and stuff like that.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and that's really the stuff that we we want to get involved in.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone listening takes that to heart.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: You are not on this reliability journey alone.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are others walking in your very same shoes right this moment that would love to collaborate with you and make everyone's system better off for the ratepayers and the folks like David and Ted who are responsible for making sure it runs correctly.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, before we bid goodnight on this edition of the Factor This podcast, I'd love to open it up to each of you for one more opportunity to share something with our audience that you either felt really bears hammering home that we discussed on the show, or maybe something that we didn't have a chance to get into as much that you were really interested in and are holding a grudge against me for not talking about more.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, top of mind for me right now, so I've I've I've you know been holding my breath a little bit doing this podcast because we have a a Nor'easter coming to uh Massachusetts this weekend that that hopefully is not gonna be as bad as they're they're predicting.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: But um I have to mention that before my last point, which is um just just hammering home the the for all utilities, you know, leadership boards, people that you know make make financial decisions, just be proactive in your in your um capital infrastructure improvement and don't don't wait for problems to happen.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know things pop up and and it's not always possible, but you know, if you know you have trouble spots, which Ted Ted said, you ask any linemen, um they'll know the trouble spots in your system, and and you don't do anything to improve those, then then you know, shame on you.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So just be proactive and and as best you can um plan for a more reliable future.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well said, David, I want to thank both of you for taking the time out of your day to have this conversation with our viewers and listeners.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly learned something about aerial cable management.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if I were to go and and try to harden my own neighborhood distribution circuit, I I can think of a couple places where I might want to start.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but since thankfully I don't have to climb up uh uh into a bucket truck and take care of that stuff myself, we'll leave that to the experts.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll just handle the podcasting stuff.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: And now my responsibility is to get us out of this show.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: So one last round of applause uh to David over at Littleton and Ted with Marmon Utility for sharing your expertise.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you took something out of this conversation, please leave a little feedback, a comment, a like, a share means an awful lot to us.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: And keep it right here on Factor This for more conversations just like this in the future.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we love shedding light into the little cracks and crevices of the energy ecosphere and learning about what it takes to make the system that we all take for uh take for granted every single day.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that said, uh once more I'm Paul Gurky with Factor This.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Factor This podcast.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, be good, everybody.