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Natasha, Tina and Madeleine are titillated by their ONE YEAR of The Book Deal · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Madeleine Cleary: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Tina Strachan: No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina
• 0:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Strachan.
• 0:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on.
• 0:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:42
  Tina Strachan: Welcome everybody to this very special episode of the Book Deal podcast.
• 0:47
  Tina Strachan: It is our one year anniversary.
• 0:52
  Tina Strachan: Woohoo.
• 0:53
  Tina Strachan: There's all three of us here.
• 0:54
  Tina Strachan: Uh, myself, Tina Strachan, and Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:59
  Tina Strachan: And Natasha, Rai?
• 1:00
  Tina Strachan: Yay.
• 1:01
  Tina Strachan: And we're all here to have a very special episode to celebrate one year off the pod.
• 1:08
  Madeleine Cleary: We're having a party on a Monday night and I've got my cup of tea.
• 1:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah,
• 1:11
  Tina Strachan: you've
• 1:12
  Natasha Rai: got tea.
• 1:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Hopefully someone has wine.
• 1:14
  Natasha Rai: At least one of us.
• 1:14
  Natasha Rai: Have you
• 1:14
  Madeleine Cleary: got Tash?
• 1:15
  Natasha Rai: I've got water.
• 1:16
  Natasha Rai: Sorry.
• 1:17
  Oh man.
• 1:18
  Natasha Rai: I know.
• 1:18
  Natasha Rai: Look,
• 1:19
  I tried.
• 1:19
  I even have a non-alcoholic margarita.
• 1:24
  Maybe put salt
• 1:25
  Tina Strachan: on the rim and everything just to make it feel a little bit more special.
• 1:28
  Tina Strachan: We were gonna do, do like
• 1:29
  Madeleine Cleary: a little, we were gonna do like a little champagne, weren't we?
• 1:32
  Madeleine Cleary: We were.
• 1:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Do that next.
• 1:34
  Tina Strachan: Alright.
• 1:34
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:35
  Tina Strachan: To do.
• 1:36
  Tina Strachan: We'll say it before in person when we do an in person one.
• 1:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, oh, so this is so special.
• 1:40
  Tina Strachan: I can't believe it's been a year already.
• 1:41
  Tina Strachan: So we're super excited and we thought.
• 1:46
  Tina Strachan: What we might do to celebrate is to have a little reminisce over the year that has been, um, we've had lots of amazing guests on the pod and lots of amazing discussions, and we wanted to pull out, each of us has chosen some of our favorite, um, I guess quotes or interviews and guests that's we've, that we've had.
• 2:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, but first I just wanna say thank you.
• 2:13
  Tina Strachan: To Madeleine and Natasha for being incredible co-hosts on the book deal podcast.
• 2:19
  Tina Strachan: Um, couldn't do it, couldn't have done it without you.
• 2:22
  Tina Strachan: Um, it's been so super fun and I've, I feel very privileged to have been able to spend the last year getting to know you girls and just chatting away.
• 2:30
  Tina Strachan: And it's still a bit, um, it still blows me away that people actually listen and I often just love just chatting to you ladies.
• 2:39
  Tina Strachan: Anyway, so it's just kind of cool that we record it and people get to listen to it as well.
• 2:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I agree meeting this has been so, so much fun.
• 2:46
  Madeleine Cleary: And um, I'll never forget, and I think Natasha was on the call as well, when you announced to our debut crew we're all on a zoom that you were going to start a podcast.
• 2:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I remember feeling so incredibly jealous.
• 2:59
  Madeleine Cleary: I was like, ah, I do a podcast as well.
• 3:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, so I think I messaged you that night and said, I think it was about three seconds later.
• 3:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Would you accept a tag along?
• 3:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And Natasha, you have
• 3:13
  Natasha Rai: a funny and interesting story about that too, don't you?
• 3:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:15
  Natasha Rai: It's so funny because, and I just wanna say before I tell you, I'm so grateful that I'm a, because I'm a recent addition to the team, so thank you.
• 3:22
  Natasha Rai: Having not that recent now.
• 3:23
  Natasha Rai: Not that recent now.
• 3:24
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, you're right.
• 3:25
  Natasha Rai: But it was so funny'cause when Madeleine Manu asked me if I would consider kind of hosting maybe one episode a month, I was like, yes.
• 3:32
  Natasha Rai: Because literally that night when Tina, you said you were gonna host a podcast, I was like, oh my God, I should get in touch with her.
• 3:38
  Natasha Rai: And then I did it'cause I was as per usual.
• 3:42
  Natasha Rai: Scared and shy, and then you two announced it and I'm like, dammit, I could have done it.
• 3:47
  Natasha Rai: I shoulda have done it.
• 3:48
  Natasha Rai: But anyway, here, I'm now here You're, and you took
• 3:50
  Madeleine Cleary: that a secret as well, like we're obviously good friends.
• 3:53
  Madeleine Cleary: You never told me that until I said, would you like to come?
• 3:56
  Madeleine Cleary: I know.
• 3:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, because it felt
• 3:57
  Natasha Rai: a bit shish to be like, I wanted to do that.
• 4:00
  So.
• 4:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, it all ended in the right thing.
• 4:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I think the three of us.
• 4:06
  Madeleine Cleary: It's been so, so much fun.
• 4:07
  Madeleine Cleary: I think that's been the joy and the highlight for me in the last couple of years in getting to know the industry is this podcast.
• 4:13
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and I think about it as well.
• 4:15
  Madeleine Cleary: In the last year, we've all, we've, between the three of us, we've published four books in that time as well.
• 4:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 4:21
  Madeleine Cleary: So we've also started a podcast during probably some of the busiest times of our lives too.
• 4:27
  That's right.
• 4:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I.
• 4:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Cringe now to think and look back on some of our early episodes.
• 4:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and wonder, well, I haven't listened back, but I, I'm just imagining if I think I'm gonna cringe now, what would it be like in sort of three to four years when we listen back on all our anxieties and concerns and thoughts?
• 4:45
  Natasha Rai: No, I think that those are all actually.
• 4:48
  Natasha Rai: Beautiful reminders of where we were or are in our journey.
• 4:52
  Natasha Rai: Because you know, like I was thinking about this the other day.
• 4:55
  Natasha Rai: I was having a chat to a friend and I was talking about, you know, worrying about my second manuscript, et cetera, and they were like, did you just hear what you just said?
• 5:03
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, I know, two years ago I was so worried about getting published full stop.
• 5:09
  Natasha Rai: And here I am going, oh, you know, what's gonna happen with my second one and when should I submit?
• 5:14
  Natasha Rai: And it's just.
• 5:15
  Natasha Rai: It's so interesting and exciting how things move on and how our, maybe not worries, but focus changes.
• 5:23
  Natasha Rai: So I think those early episodes, if you listen back to them, they're just gonna be beautiful reminders of where you were, right?
• 5:29
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 5:31
  Tina Strachan: And that's why it's so, so nice to be.
• 5:33
  Tina Strachan: Have the whole debut crew and we've still got six months left right.
• 5:36
  Tina Strachan: Or five months left of the year where we get to celebrate the releases of all the incredible debut crews books that are coming out.
• 5:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so that's been another real.
• 5:48
  Tina Strachan: Real benefit to be able to support the debut crew this year as well.
• 5:50
  Tina Strachan: And we hope to keep doing it, don't we?
• 5:52
  Tina Strachan: We just, with every debut crew that comes past, so hopefully debut crew 2026, we can, we can roll on with the debut spotlights, but
• 6:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Absolutely.
• 6:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 6:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 6:03
  Tina Strachan: Get in contact.
• 6:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, that's right.
• 6:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Sure.
• 6:05
  Madeleine Cleary: That's never too early.
• 6:07
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm sure there'll be lots of ERs.
• 6:08
  Madeleine Cleary: We, um, actually our Melbourne 2025 day boot crew is catching up with the 2026 day boot crew in Melbourne next.
• 6:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh.
• 6:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Wow.
• 6:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha's looking at me.
• 6:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, what?
• 6:20
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm so jealous.
• 6:22
  Tina Strachan: That's fomo.
• 6:23
  Tina Strachan: Big time.
• 6:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, me too.
• 6:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, we're ex It's exciting.
• 6:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, Leanna Shaw, I met Leanna at an event I did with Anne Freeman and Leanna's the debrief for next year.
• 6:32
  Madeleine Cleary: And we we're just chatting and we sort of thought, oh, it might be a nice idea now to actually talk now before things start getting really, really hectic.
• 6:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and, you know, if we, if there's any advice that we can impart, then of course.
• 6:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Take that.
• 6:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but I think the crew, from the sounds of it, everyone I've spoken to for next year, they're, they're really brilliant and I'm so excited for next year.
• 6:52
  Madeleine Cleary: But we still have five months left of this year.
• 6:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 6:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So we've got lots of new, lots more exciting titles to look forward to.
• 6:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 6:59
  Madeleine Cleary: It'll
• 7:00
  Tina Strachan: never get old, that feeling will of, of the debut.
• 7:03
  Madeleine Cleary: No, that's right.
• 7:05
  Madeleine Cleary: And then Tina, I think after your third book comes out this year, you can probably say you are no longer a debut author.
• 7:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 7:12
  Tina Strachan: Probably three books in.
• 7:14
  Tina Strachan: That's sad, isn't it?
• 7:16
  Tina Strachan: Alrighty.
• 7:17
  Tina Strachan: Well, we, um, I'm excited to go and revisit these interviews and quotes some of our favorite quotes, um, from the year that was, and who wants to go first?
• 7:30
  Hmm?
• 7:31
  Madeleine Cleary: What should be your first team?
• 7:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha.
• 7:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, Natasha.
• 7:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, Natasha.
• 7:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh gosh.
• 7:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Well you've got two Natasha, so maybe you should Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
• 7:37
  Natasha Rai: Okay, I'll go first.
• 7:38
  Natasha Rai: So, um, I've picked these two interviews or these two guests for different reasons.
• 7:44
  Natasha Rai: So the first person I was thinking about is, um, Zaheda Gaheni She is the author of Pomegranate and Fig and her date that came out, uh, in 2023.
• 7:56
  Natasha Rai: So the reason I really love that interview, uh, was because she so generously gave so many beautiful.
• 8:04
  Natasha Rai: Tips around writing practice and the one that blew my mind, even though everyone else seems to already do it, is um, her idea of setting intention for each time you sit down.
• 8:16
  Natasha Rai: So even if you decide that you're going to use your writing time to research, it doesn't feel like.
• 8:21
  Natasha Rai: You've wasted time or that you haven't written anything, because that was the intention and there was just some, it sounds so simple, but there was just something so good about that, that it actually just changed my writing practice.
• 8:33
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:34
  Natasha Rai: Um, because I now sit down and have an intention and if the intention is to yeah, research or to read, read some, to do some reading in relation to what I'm working on, it still feels like progress.
• 8:46
  Natasha Rai: So that's what I really liked.
• 8:47
  Natasha Rai: It's get Chuck,
• 8:48
  Madeleine Cleary: don't you, when you are not.
• 8:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Progressing word count where you think, yes, yes.
• 8:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I'm not progressing anything and I'm failing and I'm getting behind and stuck.
• 8:57
  Madeleine Cleary: But really it's even, even if you're not on your laptop, even if it's just deciding to take half an hour to go for a walk and just think about the book.
• 9:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 9:06
  Natasha Rai: It do writing.
• 9:08
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 9:08
  Natasha Rai: And word count is not the only measure.
• 9:10
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 9:11
  Natasha Rai: And, and from there, you know this idea that if you write your a writer, there's no.
• 9:16
  Natasha Rai: There's no test or something you have to pass to qualify as a writer.
• 9:21
  Zaheda Ghani: Well, should I play the quote?
• 9:23
  Natasha Rai: Yes, please.
• 9:24
  Zaheda Ghani: There isn't really a criteria for whether you are a writer or not, that kind of, um, wanting to pass a gate or earning it as a right is not a thing.
• 9:40
  Zaheda Ghani: If we are writing, because that's where we like to have our creative outlet, then we are a writer.
• 9:46
  Zaheda Ghani: It doesn't matter beyond that.
• 9:48
  Natasha Rai: I like that.
• 9:49
  Zaheda Ghani: Yeah, perfect.
• 9:50
  Natasha Rai: Exactly, because you know, even, um, meeting people who are writing or you know what we all did, writing in secret maybe, or writing and loving it, but not being able to talk about it, it just makes me sad.
• 10:04
  Natasha Rai: So that just, it's a beautiful message.
• 10:06
  Natasha Rai: If you're right, you're a writer.
• 10:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 10:08
  Madeleine Cleary: I think you had to get overcome the shyness then too.
• 10:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 10:12
  Madeleine Cleary: When you are before the gate, the so-called gate.
• 10:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, exactly.
• 10:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Tina Strachan: What is that about?
• 10:17
  Tina Strachan: I don't know what that's about, but that was definitely me too.
• 10:19
  Tina Strachan: So, and I, I do wish that I didn't do that.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I feel like just all those years that I missed out on making connections, like I don't think I would've got published any sooner.
• 10:27
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I still would've had to do the.
• 10:29
  Tina Strachan: Years of writing and everything, but I would've made connections, um, sooner, just missed out on that community a little bit sooner.
• 10:36
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, maybe I actually would've got published a bit sooner because I would've spent more time.
• 10:39
  Tina Strachan: And because I would've recognized that, Hey, you can actually do this.
• 10:43
  Tina Strachan: Why are you doing it in secret?
• 10:44
  Tina Strachan: Actually, take the time now.
• 10:46
  Tina Strachan: Put effort in now maybe.
• 10:48
  Tina Strachan: So anyone who's listening, who is writing in secret, get out there and get into the community.
• 10:52
  Tina Strachan: It's just.
• 10:53
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, a step, a step forward.
• 10:55
  Tina Strachan: Hey.
• 10:56
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 10:56
  Tina Strachan: So, Taj, but you had a second one, didn't you?
• 10:59
  Tina Strachan: You had two quotes'cause you found it
• 11:01
  Natasha Rai: hard to choose.
• 11:02
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I did find it hard to choose.
• 11:03
  Natasha Rai: Um, so my second interview guest is Shankari Chandran, the Miles Franklin winner.
• 11:09
  Natasha Rai: Um, and so the, her book that won the Miles Franklin Award's, chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens, so the reason I loved her words, um, in that interview is that.
• 11:19
  Natasha Rai: To have somebody of that, like, to have that kind of success.
• 11:23
  Natasha Rai: 'cause she's had five books out, I think here it's five.
• 11:27
  Natasha Rai: And to have won such a major literary prize.
• 11:30
  Natasha Rai: 'cause in the interview she talks about how at one point she had given up, she'd given up on the idea of publication, but what she never gave up on was writing.
• 11:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, and I love this idea that she says that she writes her everything, her feelings into it.
• 11:44
  Natasha Rai: She, she writes everything she's experiencing because.
• 11:49
  Natasha Rai: It resonated with me.
• 11:49
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I feel I do that in my characters.
• 11:51
  Natasha Rai: Like I write things that I'm experiencing in the world and I think a lot of writers do that.
• 11:56
  Natasha Rai: You know, I heard Harley Scribner say when she was asked about is she is one of the characters her, and she's like, you know, aren't we all in all of our characters?
• 12:04
  Natasha Rai: So
• 12:04
  that
• 12:05
  Natasha Rai: just spoke to me more about, you know, what we as writers put into our work regardless of publication.
• 12:11
  Natasha Rai: So I just really loved the way she talks about what she puts into her writing.
• 12:15
  Madeleine Cleary: It also astounded me that, um.
• 12:18
  Madeleine Cleary: She felt like back, sort of, it was like 10 years ago, she had to change a character that the, um, intern Oh yes.
• 12:25
  Madeleine Cleary: A white character and that, and then, and then after, you know, all those years of having those rejections and um, just c try time came out of that.
• 12:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I don't.
• 12:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 12:37
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't think this is gonna get published.
• 12:39
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't, I'm just gonna write what I wanna write for my family.
• 12:42
  Mm.
• 12:43
  Madeleine Cleary: And then that becomes, you know, this highly acclaimed piece of work.
• 12:47
  Madeleine Cleary: That's one miles Frank.
• 12:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 12:49
  Natasha Rai: And in so many ways, she's, you know, she's the trailblazer of her people like me.
• 12:52
  Natasha Rai: 'cause now I've written a book with a person of color as the main character and all, everyone mainly in it.
• 12:58
  Natasha Rai: And no one.
• 12:59
  Natasha Rai: Thought anything weird about it or no one said, oh, this is weird that there's, you know, a brown person in it.
• 13:05
  Natasha Rai: So she's a trailblazer.
• 13:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 13:08
  Madeleine Cleary: It's, um, well, hopefully in future Ultimo can, well, they've got the rights now.
• 13:12
  Madeleine Cleary: They can go and retract and, and have it the way it should have always been.
• 13:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 13:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Such an interesting episode.
• 13:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I love that.
• 13:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and it was a fantastic interview, Natasha.
• 13:23
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 13:23
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I read it.
• 13:24
  Natasha Rai: I was having her on.
• 13:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Everyone just take notes, like just, I think the whole episode.
• 13:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Just take notes.
• 13:29
  Madeleine Cleary: But this is a great, great quote here.
• 13:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 13:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you're interested, go back to episode 36 with Shankari.
• 13:36
  Madeleine Cleary: This is just a little taster.
• 13:38
  Shankari Chandran: But writing for me is incredibly therapeutic, and it's really part of that process of maintaining hope.
• 13:44
  Shankari Chandran: I write a lot of my anger, frustration, my fears, my existential anxieties, my concerns about injustices.
• 13:51
  Shankari Chandran: I work through a lot of that in my writing.
• 13:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 13:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 13:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Love that.
• 13:59
  Madeleine Cleary: It's very therapeutic.
• 14:01
  Mm.
• 14:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Would you, do you find it therapeutic, Tina writing?
• 14:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think I write about, um, what Karri writes about with, you know, she's obviously coming and that's very good, sort of deep and, um, meaningful sort of, you know, fodder for her, for her writing.
• 14:22
  Tina Strachan: So I feel for her that's like she just said it's therapy, right.
• 14:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, it's probably more, not, not so much therapy in the same sense, but.
• 14:34
  Tina Strachan: It's a kind of more therapy as in almost for me, like a mindfulness or a, you know, just like exercises.
• 14:45
  Tina Strachan: I think it's just as important, right?
• 14:46
  Tina Strachan: Like it's exercising my mind and my brain and I mean, it's something in there that needs to come out and it's thoroughly enjoyable.
• 14:53
  Tina Strachan: So I literally have joy from it, so, or get joy from it.
• 14:56
  Tina Strachan: So, um, for me it's important.
• 14:59
  Tina Strachan: For my health.
• 15:01
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 15:02
  Tina Strachan: Writing to keep myself sane, I think.
• 15:03
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:05
  Tina Strachan: What
• 15:05
  Natasha Rai: about you guys?
• 15:06
  Tina Strachan: It's cheaper
• 15:06
  Natasha Rai: than therapy, isn't it?
• 15:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 15:09
  Tina Strachan: sure is.
• 15:10
  Tina Strachan: But
• 15:10
  Natasha Rai: with the right therapist, it's totally worth the
• 15:12
  Tina Strachan: cost.
• 15:13
  Tina Strachan: This is true.
• 15:14
  Tina Strachan: This is true.
• 15:15
  Tina Strachan: Writing won't fix everything.
• 15:16
  Tina Strachan: Unfortunately, if only.
• 15:18
  Natasha Rai: I think, sorry,
• 15:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I had to, had to insert that.
• 15:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh no.
• 15:22
  Madeleine Cleary: And for those who don't know, Natasha is counselor therapist.
• 15:25
  Madeleine Cleary: So are we allowed to say that on air?
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:30
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not a
• 15:31
  Tina Strachan: secret.
• 15:31
  Tina Strachan: Not a secret.
• 15:32
  Tina Strachan: Not a secret.
• 15:32
  Tina Strachan: That's why when you listen to her episodes, you just feel so, you know, relaxed and, and, and we should say like, you've just had your own session even.
• 15:43
  Tina Strachan: That's great.
• 15:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, that's the great thing, like we've got this and for the listeners we should, we're very sorry that you're not part of this, but we have our own WhatsApp.
• 15:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, chat where we send each other voice memos throughout the day, pretty much every day.
• 16:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And it is kind of like your own personal therapy session, like, because you just voice all your, and I'm just gonna quote Shankar here.
• 16:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Anger, frustration, fears, existential anxieties, concerns about injustices.
• 16:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and yeah.
• 16:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Really helpful and I have to say, yeah, Natasha, when you respond, it is very calming.
• 16:24
  Madeleine Cleary: You, you have a very beautiful voice, I think.
• 16:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 16:26
  Natasha Rai: It's very relaxing.
• 16:28
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 16:29
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 16:31
  Tina Strachan: See, I know, I get excited when I see a little voicemail, like, you know, I see, oh, there's a message and I open it up.
• 16:36
  Tina Strachan: But if it's a voicemail, um, I get, yeah.
• 16:39
  Tina Strachan: I'm very excited.
• 16:40
  Madeleine Cleary: We know, Tina, you've, um, you.
• 16:42
  I've left a few in my time,
• 16:45
  Madeleine Cleary: and Tina always, um, does her voice memos when she's in the car driving.
• 16:49
  Madeleine Cleary: So we always hear the Exactly,
• 16:51
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 16:52
  Tina Strachan: I love that actually, because I'm, I'm constantly driving.
• 16:54
  Tina Strachan: Does I feel like I'm constantly driving.
• 16:56
  Tina Strachan: Uh, well they were great Natasha.
• 16:59
  Tina Strachan: I agree.
• 16:59
  Tina Strachan: They were some of the best quotes of the year.
• 17:02
  Tina Strachan: I think.
• 17:03
  Tina Strachan: So.
• 17:04
  Tina Strachan: Tina,
• 17:05
  Madeleine Cleary: what about you?
• 17:06
  Madeleine Cleary: What's your.
• 17:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Your favorite moment in this, um, year's podcast.
• 17:12
  Tina Strachan: Now I do have to say I found it really hard and you girls maybe choose just one, and it was very hard.
• 17:18
  Tina Strachan: So, but I, I decided to go with one.
• 17:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, I have a couple of honorable mentions that'll go, it'll touch on just, um, after we chat about this one.
• 17:26
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 17:26
  Madeleine Cleary: give us, give us your honorable mentions.
• 17:27
  Madeleine Cleary: No, I'm gonna do them afterwards.
• 17:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I think
• 17:28
  Tina Strachan: they flow really well into, into yours, Madeleine, but, um.
• 17:33
  Tina Strachan: So this one is from episode 12 of the Book Deal Podcast, where I interviewed Catherine Collette, and lots of people will know.
• 17:40
  Tina Strachan: Catherine Collette, um, podcast host for the first time podcast, and the next step.
• 17:47
  Tina Strachan: Podcast and, um, multi published author as well.
• 17:53
  Tina Strachan: Now she does coaching, um, like, uh, author coaching and offers a whole heap of a whole heap of sort of helpful, um, workshops and programs for authors.
• 18:03
  Tina Strachan: So, um, and I love her posts that she does on Instagram.
• 18:08
  Tina Strachan: Sometimes they're just so perfectly timed and you, you read her words and you go, that's exactly what I was feeling today.
• 18:14
  Tina Strachan: And it's, she's just really raw and honest about, um.
• 18:17
  Tina Strachan: Publishing and authoring and writing, and sometimes it's practical, sometimes it's, you know, how to think, um, getting your mind in the right spot, things like that.
• 18:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, so this one we, I thought was actually probably quite relevant to.
• 18:33
  Tina Strachan: Recently discussions that we've had recently, it's sort of almost back to our last discussion, Madeleine, where we were chatting about author disappointment and sometimes that relates to sales
• 18:43
  of your
• 18:43
  Tina Strachan: book when you get your sales through, because you look at that as a measure of whether you've been successful or not, right?
• 18:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 18:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Should I play the quote?
• 18:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, please.
• 18:53
  Katherine Collette: To write better books and, and, you know, focus on the things that you can control.
• 18:58
  Katherine Collette: Sales is not a thing that you have any control over.
• 19:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:01
  Katherine Collette: Um.
• 19:03
  Katherine Collette: But the measure of success that sales is, sales is a single measure of success and it's one that you have no control over.
• 19:12
  Katherine Collette: I think it's a really crude measure of success and there needs to be much, um, a much more nuanced, I suppose, way of thinking about, um, how a book fairs in the world.
• 19:25
  Katherine Collette: I think the emphasis on sales I see most in the debut author moment.
• 19:30
  Katherine Collette: It feels very parcel fail for debut authors.
• 19:34
  Katherine Collette: I, I, I think that really fades and I think as you get an author further down the line, of course everyone wants every single book they write to be a bestseller and universally AOR and all of those things.
• 19:47
  Katherine Collette: But down the line people don't talk about sales so much.
• 19:51
  Katherine Collette: Whereas the debut experience, people think if this does not sell well, my career is over.
• 19:56
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 19:57
  Tina Strachan: Good one just summed it up perfectly, didn't it?
• 19:59
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 20:00
  Tina Strachan: It's very much, you know, a vibe that we're feeling at the moment.
• 20:02
  Tina Strachan: I mean, we, it's, you know, Catherine's talking about, um, debut authors and we were chatting about, I guess just how to navigate that debut time.
• 20:09
  Tina Strachan: And I asked her for advice on, you know.
• 20:12
  Tina Strachan: For us as debuts and all everybody else in the debut crew, what's to be expected?
• 20:16
  Tina Strachan: And this is such a big thing, right?
• 20:18
  Tina Strachan: Once the glow of the debut experience is over, you know, you've seen your book on the shelf and you've had your launch and then, you know, I guess reality, uh, sets in when it comes to getting sales figures and, um, yeah, can, can sometimes be a little bit, um, unexpected for authors.
• 20:41
  Tina Strachan: I think, uh, very much.
• 20:42
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I totally agree with Catherine.
• 20:44
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, don't, a lot of people do think, you know, if it doesn't sell well then my career's over or, or take it to heart.
• 20:52
  Tina Strachan: But it isn't just sales that determines, um, if you're going to be successful or not, or even if that book is going to be successful or not, and especially not in your debut year.
• 21:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I have so many thoughts about this, and I think, um, yeah, of course sales is just one measure.
• 21:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, everybody wants to be a bestseller, of course.
• 21:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and your publisher wants you to sell as well as you can.
• 21:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I think though, if you've developed a really strong and good relationship with your publisher, sales becomes less of a thing because the publisher sees all the investment they've put into you, and it has been a huge time investment on their part.
• 21:33
  Madeleine Cleary: An effort and energy to get your first book out if it doesn't do so well.
• 21:36
  Madeleine Cleary: But if you've got that solid backing from your publisher, you know, they see you as a career author.
• 21:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think that's the difference, isn't it?
• 21:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Because we've seen examples in the past of where authors have struck out on their second or their third book.
• 21:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but I do think there is a little, a little bit of, um, um, perhaps.
• 21:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Energy around the debuts, like you only debut once.
• 22:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And so publishers see, you see this as a great opportunity to see what happens.
• 22:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And sometimes you get, and we've been talking about this, sometimes you get the backing, the financial backing, including in marketing and publicity, um, that publisher might give.
• 22:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And some books just don't have that.
• 22:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Much of that.
• 22:19
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's a decision that's made by the publisher.
• 22:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Again, it's completely out of your control.
• 22:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so that can have a massive influence in sales too, and that's completely outside of your control.
• 22:30
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 22:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:31
  Natasha Rai: But you know on that as well, and I know we've been talking about this, the three of us, I.
• 22:36
  Natasha Rai: There's also a difference I think, between a bigger publisher, like say the Big Five to a mid or to a small publisher, and maybe, I don't know this is true, it's just an impression.
• 22:47
  Natasha Rai: Maybe a smaller publisher with fewer titles every year is more likely to take a risk as in or take a chance on you.
• 22:55
  Natasha Rai: And help you build that career because they aren't looking, as you said on that one book, doing a certain set, you know, cer certain way in the market.
• 23:05
  Natasha Rai: So there's that.
• 23:05
  Natasha Rai: And the other thing as well, just from my own experience, even if you don't get the full.
• 23:11
  Natasha Rai: You know, fireworks and everything thrown at your book.
• 23:15
  Natasha Rai: The nothing's stopping you from going out there and pitching yourself to places.
• 23:19
  Natasha Rai: And I think as long as you are having those conversations with your publicist and they know what you want to do, like, it's not like if, if they don't put everything they have behind your book, it's gonna sink.
• 23:31
  Natasha Rai: Like you have no right.
• 23:32
  Natasha Rai: You definitely have agency over that part.
• 23:35
  Natasha Rai: You can definitely go out there and, and do what you can and what you feel comfortable with.
• 23:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I think what that big, I suppose it's not, it's less, um, publicity and more marketing, at least this is what I've observed over the last sort of seven months watching all of our debuts launch.
• 23:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, what marketing does, you know, things like getting you better reading campaigns and good reading campaigns and putting you on net galley.
• 24:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And so, because that's all a cost to the publisher, um, having, you know, like gift with purchase.
• 24:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Things like that.
• 24:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Like these are all costly things, um, that gives you that immediate push out.
• 24:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and obviously having stock in stores, but in the end, if you haven't written a good book, you'll get that immediate sales.
• 24:23
  Madeleine Cleary: But the word of mouth is not going to happen.
• 24:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And in the end it is word of mouth that sells books.
• 24:28
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 24:29
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 24:30
  Tina Strachan: I feel like that was.
• 24:31
  Tina Strachan: Uh, because I've had this conversation, we've been having this conversation for a little while, and I've definitely had conversations around this with other authors, like, how, but how did that debut just do so well say like some, some, you know, internationally bestselling, and it just, I just think, how is, how is that done?
• 24:51
  Tina Strachan: And, and.
• 24:53
  Tina Strachan: You know, we go around, we seem to just go around in circles and keep coming up with theories as to why.
• 24:58
  Tina Strachan: But what I think what we always come back to is, well, the book has to be solid and has to be a good book and with longevity, and that's like even if it is, you know, a bestseller straight outta the gates, it's that longevity that you're actually after.
• 25:18
  Tina Strachan: You know, what good is it, you know, having all these sales straight out the gates because Publish publicity's pushed it, but it's only short-lived and it doesn't get reprinted and you know, I don't know, it just sort of fades away.
• 25:30
  Tina Strachan: You want something that's gonna be around for a while and people are gonna talk about for a while and, um, want more from you.
• 25:36
  Tina Strachan: You know, I think most people wanna write more than one book, don't they?
• 25:39
  Tina Strachan: Once they get published.
• 25:41
  Tina Strachan: For sure.
• 25:41
  Tina Strachan: So, sure.
• 25:41
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:42
  Tina Strachan: It's that coming back to having a strong book and longevity.
• 25:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 25:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, great.
• 25:52
  Billie Rooney: Hi, I'm Billie Rooney and my picture book Creature Corridors was published this year by C-S-I-R-O publishing with warm and vibrant illustrations by Anke Noack.
• 26:02
  Billie Rooney: This book is for all children, especially those who love animals and who wanna find out more about how we can protect Australia's amazing wildlife in a world where human development is taking over the spaces where wild creatures live.
• 26:15
  Billie Rooney: How can we make sure these animals still have spaces to move about safely, and what can we do to help?
• 26:20
  Billie Rooney: This is a book about wildlife corridors, those safe pathways that animals need when they go out searching for food or shelter.
• 26:28
  Billie Rooney: These can look like a simple row of trees or a bridge over a highway.
• 26:32
  Billie Rooney: What they have in common is that they connect habitats rather than divide them from the kangaroo to the platypus, from small birds to the giant, Cassie.
• 26:41
  Billie Rooney: And from Christmas Island crabs to the lizards who live in our own backyards.
• 26:46
  Billie Rooney: This book provides a hopeful message about how we can all play a part in looking after our environment.
• 26:52
  Billie Rooney: Creature Corridors is inspired by my love for nature and the outdoors.
• 26:56
  Billie Rooney: It is a wish for a world where animals and humans can thrive together on this beautiful and precious planet.
• 27:02
  Billie Rooney: Thank you to Tina and Madeleine for a chance to share this book with you on the book Deal podcast.
• 27:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I think every type of book is different.
• 27:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, um, obviously the kid Lit space, Tina is very different from adult.
• 27:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 27:17
  Madeleine Cleary: In terms of what the publisher's gonna do, literary fiction's gonna be.
• 27:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Different to your commercial rural crime, you know, Outback noir book.
• 27:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so every book is treated differently and that's, I suppose, what publishers have to weigh up when they're looking at budgets and all sorts of things, because.
• 27:38
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, we all know this.
• 27:39
  Madeleine Cleary: There is, so, there are so many books that are published each year.
• 27:43
  Madeleine Cleary: There's a huge breadth.
• 27:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and sometimes a book that doesn't have that much marketing behind it will do really spectacularly well.
• 27:52
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's fantastic for everybody.
• 27:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and sometimes the ones that do get all the marketing behind it.
• 27:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Don't do well, so it is can kind of, a bit of a gamble as well.
• 28:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Sometimes.
• 28:04
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not necessarily one equals therefore success.
• 28:07
  Madeleine Cleary: So
• 28:07
  Tina Strachan: exactly.
• 28:08
  Natasha Rai: Mm mm
• 28:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 28:09
  Tina Strachan: Just write a good strong book that you love and like go along for the ride, I think.
• 28:15
  Tina Strachan: And I dunno, I think that's the best way to tackle it.
• 28:19
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 28:19
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think the, the, um, having bookseller support too, I think is really crucial for getting to that bestseller level that starts with, you know, getting your book in stores and out the front, which is really hard.
• 28:33
  Madeleine Cleary: So that's where the sales come sales team comes into it.
• 28:36
  Madeleine Cleary: But, um, you know.
• 28:39
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I'm, my heart is filled with joy.
• 28:41
  Madeleine Cleary: When I have booksellers say to me, oh, I've been, um, hand selling this just to, to, um, customers and there is nothing better than, um, hand selling for an author.
• 28:52
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, because, um, once your book.
• 28:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Hits after two months release, it goes to the shelf.
• 29:00
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not upfront anymore, so your book's gonna sit on the shelf, probably spy out, not face out.
• 29:06
  Madeleine Cleary: So have a books seller reach for your book and put that into the hands of a customer.
• 29:10
  Madeleine Cleary: That's the most important thing.
• 29:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:11
  Madeleine Cleary: How you craft those relationships with books sellers.
• 29:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, that's also in your control, I think.
• 29:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 29:17
  Tina Strachan: And join a debut crew.
• 29:18
  Tina Strachan: 'cause they are very good at going into bookshops and turning your book face cover out whenever they're in there, regardless of how long it's been out for.
• 29:25
  Tina Strachan: So it's just like your
• 29:27
  Madeleine Cleary: little street team hand selling.
• 29:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I literally hand, hand handheld.
• 29:29
  Madeleine Cleary: I've hand sold both your books, actually.
• 29:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:31
  Madeleine Cleary: There you go.
• 29:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Not even books seller.
• 29:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, it's a, it's a tough one.
• 29:39
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a tough conversation to have, but I think it's important particularly for, I suppose, Deb writers for next year to consider as well.
• 29:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and it's probably something I didn't really think about coming into this year that you will start to see some people having different treatment across the book.
• 29:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think being aware of that early on is good because it reduces the amount of, huh, why is this person getting this?
• 30:03
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and the difference, I suppose, in it.
• 30:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, and maybe it's that we're talking about it and revealing the secrets of the publishing industry, but I think it's pretty obvious though.
• 30:13
  Natasha Rai: But also I think it comes back to managing expectations.
• 30:15
  Natasha Rai: You know, if, if you see somebody else getting a lot of marketing budget and you get excited'cause you think that's how, what the norm is.
• 30:23
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 30:24
  Natasha Rai: That goes straight back to that idea of disappointment.
• 30:26
  Natasha Rai: So.
• 30:27
  Natasha Rai: The only, the best way to do it is to talk to your publisher and find out what the plan is for your book, and then find the gaps that you can fill.
• 30:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 30:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 30:36
  Madeleine Cleary: And often the amount of money that is spent on those books, it might also come down to the advance that they've put aside for that book.
• 30:43
  Madeleine Cleary: And, you know, if, if it's a high advance, then they wanna, the publisher wants to try and make sure that they're getting their money.
• 30:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Back as much as they can as well.
• 30:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 30:51
  Madeleine Cleary: So there is a very practical business side that is less about the quality of the book and you as an author, and perhaps more from a business perspective too.
• 31:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 31:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 31:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Important to know.
• 31:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 31:03
  Tina Strachan: It is important to make those relationships, like you said, with Booksellers Madeleine, I was always one who was like, I don't know how to do that.
• 31:09
  Tina Strachan: Like, how do I, I don't just, you know, go into bookstores and I'll buy books.
• 31:13
  Tina Strachan: No one's really.
• 31:14
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, I mean, I live somewhere where we don't have lots of small independence either, so, um.
• 31:21
  Tina Strachan: I've always found it quite difficult going to the big ones and everyone's flat out and you just don't have a second to even chat to them.
• 31:26
  Tina Strachan: So I always found that interesting.
• 31:27
  Tina Strachan: And, um, I think we're going to try and get a bookseller on in a few weeks who might be able to help and give us some advice on, for debuts on how to best go in there, how to approach, don't go in on a Monday morning, I've heard no.
• 31:41
  Tina Strachan: Or lunchtime.
• 31:43
  Tina Strachan: Or a Saturday or a Sunday, but yeah,
• 31:45
  Madeleine Cleary: but even if you do,'cause I have done that before and I'm just like, I'm sorry, it's Saturday.
• 31:50
  Madeleine Cleary: And they're like, no, no, no, we're so happy you're here.
• 31:52
  Madeleine Cleary: So booksellers are generally lovely people, but yes, we will Oh yeah, ask the official bookseller the appropriate protocols.
• 32:00
  Tina Strachan: That was great.
• 32:01
  Tina Strachan: That was a great, uh, quote, great chat and great quote from Catherine.
• 32:04
  Tina Strachan: So I did, like I said, I had lots that I couldn't choose.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: Between though.
• 32:08
  Tina Strachan: But I did and I chose Catherine.
• 32:09
  Tina Strachan: I thought that was a good one.
• 32:10
  Tina Strachan: But I have two honorable mentions and I'm actually gonna read them out and I want you ladies to have a guess who the author is.
• 32:19
  Tina Strachan: Okay?
• 32:19
  Tina Strachan: I said this quote, okay.
• 32:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Testing our knowledge.
• 32:22
  Madeleine Cleary: It's like trivia book your, okay.
• 32:24
  Tina Strachan: I love trivia.
• 32:25
  Tina Strachan: I do trivia.
• 32:25
  Tina Strachan: All my book launches for anybody who is coming 20 any in the next.
• 32:31
  Tina Strachan: Quick brown fox on the 2nd of August.
• 32:32
  Tina Strachan: August, if you'd like to come.
• 32:34
  Tina Strachan: There will be wildlife themed trivia.
• 32:36
  Okay.
• 32:37
  But for now, all right.
• 32:40
  Tina Strachan: It was just this surreal fairytale night and I was on a high for the rest of the day, so I got home, took my laxative and logged on for work at 8:00 AM the next day.
• 32:51
  Next day.
• 32:52
  Anyone wanna have a guess?
• 32:53
  Natasha Rai: Um, was it Madeleine Cleary?
• 32:56
  Well done Natasha.
• 32:59
  Yeah, I know.
• 33:01
  Look, it's hard to choose which one of the poo quotes I should have pulled out for Madeleine.
• 33:06
  'cause we do.
• 33:06
  You know, we talk about tummy troubles sometimes on the pod.
• 33:10
  Madeleine Cleary: When you said that, what Madeleine does anyway, you know when I spoke about cringe, like looking back on episodes and cringing all the episodes where I talked about taking laxatives and oh my gosh, I love that.
• 33:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Now, which episode was that from?
• 33:24
  Uh, episode 22.
• 33:26
  Everybody.
• 33:26
  Yeah.
• 33:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 33:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 33:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I have another one.
• 33:28
  Madeleine Cleary: That's when I had the author and AOL fairytale night.
• 33:32
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 33:32
  Tina Strachan: Oh, didn't have to take like Steve.
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: A great story.
• 33:34
  Tina Strachan: A great story.
• 33:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, now this is one from a very recent episode, actually, which just, I just laughed when I, when I heard it.
• 33:43
  Tina Strachan: And I'm, I, sorry.
• 33:44
  Tina Strachan: I'm gonna use this for, for today.
• 33:46
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 33:47
  Tina Strachan: Ladies, who is this author?
• 33:50
  Tina Strachan: It's a short one.
• 33:50
  Tina Strachan: Ready?
• 33:51
  Tina Strachan: I was titillated.
• 33:54
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 33:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha.
• 33:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my God.
• 33:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my God.
• 33:58
  Madeleine Cleary: I laughed.
• 33:59
  Madeleine Cleary: I laughed at that episode with Holly.
• 34:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Ow so much.
• 34:03
  Madeleine Cleary: You were just like, I really loved the sex, Holly.
• 34:07
  Madeleine Cleary: I just,
• 34:07
  Natasha Rai: I think I was a bit overenthusiastic about how much I loved the sex.
• 34:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, you were titillated.
• 34:14
  Madeleine Cleary: I think,'cause I think the quote was, was like, Holly was like, oh, you know, I, it wasn't, my intent wasn't to just tate, you know, readers.
• 34:21
  Madeleine Cleary: It was meant to be.
• 34:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And you're like, I was TATed.
• 34:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, that was TATed.
• 34:24
  Madeleine Cleary: So it worked.
• 34:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Holly, good work.
• 34:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I was, I actually was on my walk up the thous, like up the mountains and um, I was like, panting.
• 34:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And then that came in my ears and I just like burst out laughing.
• 34:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, Natasha's like crying with laughter, by the way, everybody, she can't.
• 34:43
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God, I never knew that's why I was gonna come back to haunt me.
• 34:47
  Well, you should know by now, as does, uh, some of our other guests that we've had on the pod that we do like to pull quotes out.
• 34:55
  Um,
• 34:56
  Tina Strachan (2): um, which leads me to Madeleine's that shouldn't just be in the quote of this week actually, just titillated.
• 35:03
  Tina Strachan (2): I thought about actually doing a post.
• 35:05
  I was titillated doing like little posts.
• 35:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, Tina, I think next episode we're gonna have to pull out one of your quotes, I reckon, because you, you've gotten both us back, so.
• 35:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:16
  Madeleine Cleary: They're my favorite.
• 35:18
  Madeleine Cleary: You told me to choose.
• 35:19
  Madeleine Cleary: It was hard.
• 35:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that's good.
• 35:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay, well I'm just gonna play this quote'cause, um.
• 35:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, you both know which one it's gonna be, and I, I think we kind of have to choose this one.
• 35:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 35:33
  Tina Strachan (2): It just
• 35:33
  Madeleine Cleary: set our socials a fire, a light.
• 35:36
  Madeleine Cleary: It just, um, completely changed our serious podcast into something a little bit wild.
• 35:44
  Madeleine Cleary: All right.
• 35:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm just gonna play it.
• 35:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Love.
• 35:46
  Samuel Bernard: So horror could, could well be on its way back.
• 35:50
  Samuel Bernard: Um, and actually this year's Brisbane Writers Festival, I was on a panel called, uh, what Publishers Want, and I was asked this question.
• 35:57
  Samuel Bernard: Um, and I kind of started talking about how the pendulum, the pendulum swings away and, and then comes back and that kind of stuff.
• 36:05
  Samuel Bernard: With publishing and post COVID, you know, we really swung away from.
• 36:11
  Samuel Bernard: The dark themes and the really, you know, dark, dark novels in our society.
• 36:16
  Samuel Bernard: And so horror was not going well.
• 36:18
  Samuel Bernard: Um, you know, cozy crime came into its own, had a little, um, really good purple patch, um, lighthearted fiction humor, all doing really well.
• 36:27
  Samuel Bernard: Um.
• 36:27
  Samuel Bernard: But it, yeah, I don't know.
• 36:29
  Samuel Bernard: I had this problem with the pendulum just going, like being really rudimentary, backward and forward.
• 36:33
  Samuel Bernard: So I kind of compared it to granddad's balls where they just kinda swing around.
• 36:38
  Samuel Bernard: Um, I don't think I'll be invited back to the pen writers first after that.
• 36:44
  Samuel Bernard: True.
• 36:44
  Samuel Bernard: Because like, you know, it, it is not just one side to a net to the other.
• 36:48
  Samuel Bernard: It's all over the shop.
• 36:50
  Samuel Bernard: Um, so grandad bowl stuff to, to flo around a little bit.
• 36:55
  We'd always invite you back to the pod though, Samuel.
• 36:57
  It's okay.
• 36:58
  Madeleine Cleary: So for those who don't know, that is, um, dunno the episode, uh, Samuel Bernard.
• 37:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, we have two parts and this is actually part two.
• 37:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, our episode with literary agent zeitgeist agency and also my agent after that as well.
• 37:13
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I did warn Sam, I messaged him today and said, um, we're resurrecting granddad's balls.
• 37:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Just tell him back.
• 37:22
  Madeleine Cleary: He's coming back.
• 37:23
  Madeleine Cleary: I said, do you give me permission?
• 37:25
  Madeleine Cleary: He's like, of course.
• 37:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So it's such
• 37:30
  Natasha Rai: a good quote.
• 37:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 37:32
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a great quote and.
• 37:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Tina and I actually watched the visual.
• 37:36
  Madeleine Cleary: I think, well actually I think I remember the visual, but I did see the video of us and because Pat, my husband, said to me when I played this earlier today, he's like, why weren't you and Tina like laughing?
• 37:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, no, no, no.
• 37:48
  Madeleine Cleary: We were laughing, but we had our hands covering our face, trying not to just burst out laughing.
• 37:53
  Madeleine Cleary: As soon as he said granddad's bulls.
• 37:58
  Oh, I've had that quoted back to me so many times from people.
• 38:01
  It really has been a highlight.
• 38:04
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a highlight.
• 38:05
  Madeleine Cleary: But I guess, you know, in all seriousness it does make sense because I think if you are, we were talking about trying to write to trends and it is hard to predict a trend and write to a trend, particularly'cause you know, we all know publishing takes a few years once you get signed the contract.
• 38:20
  Madeleine Cleary: You could be all in the cozy crime and writing cozy crime because you think that's gonna be a bestseller, but then it's diverted to horror, you know, a few years later and you've missed that trend.
• 38:29
  Madeleine Cleary: So you've gotta write what you and what, so what I think the message is, you've, you've gotta write the things that you love.
• 38:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Like that's what you should be and what you're passionate about.
• 38:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so there was, there was, um, some good solid, um, advice behind that as well, which I loved.
• 38:41
  Madeleine Cleary: But, um.
• 38:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I did wanna actually talk too about, um, um, getting an agent.
• 38:47
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I don't think I ever revealed that on the podcast as well.
• 38:50
  Tina Strachan: No, I don't think you did.
• 38:51
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, that would be really good if you could chat everybody through'cause that's what a lot of people are, you know, wanting advice on.
• 38:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, yes.
• 38:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And actually at the, when we interviewed Sam, so this was last year, I think Samuel, um, Samuel wasn't my agent back then.
• 39:06
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um.
• 39:07
  Madeleine Cleary: We had been chatting for a while, and so I'd asked him onto the podcast and, you know, he, we'd sort of talked about what I've been writing and he had read a little bit about it.
• 39:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and yeah, after the podcast, um, I was asking him for some advice about approaching agents, like looking for an agent.
• 39:27
  Madeleine Cleary: And I, I actually didn't think he was interested in, in sort of, you know.
• 39:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Signing me, but I just sort of said, oh, I'm doing some pitching sessions with a couple of agents.
• 39:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, what do you think?
• 39:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, do you have any advice?
• 39:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, he actually came back to me like, I think it was like a few hours later and he's like, oh, um, I'll sign you.
• 39:52
  Madeleine Cleary: And I was like, oh my gosh.
• 39:54
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, really?
• 39:54
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I was like, are you serious?
• 39:56
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I think you sort of just messaged me and I said, yeah, yeah.
• 39:58
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm really keen, I really, really love your writing and your book.
• 40:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um,'cause I sort of hadn't decided whether I was gonna get an agent or not.
• 40:05
  Madeleine Cleary: And then, you know, I was like, no, no, I really wanna do it.
• 40:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And he's like, yeah, absolutely.
• 40:08
  Madeleine Cleary: I'll sign you up.
• 40:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but at the time we couldn't announce it because, well, and also he had said, um, you know, after we did the podcast, he's like, you, you know, I really thought that, you know, you've got a lot behind you and you've got, you know, you're building a good profile in the community and the writing industry.
• 40:25
  Madeleine Cleary: So he'd sort of watched me do that over that year.
• 40:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and that was quite interesting because it's not just about the writing, it's also about.
• 40:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Like what you are doing around that too.
• 40:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so yeah, I really actually have the podcast, I think to, to thank for, for getting an agent.
• 40:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I recognize,
• 40:43
  Tina Strachan: I'm sure it's your writing, Madeleine, but yes, the po that's probably, I suppose probably, but yeah, that, that's it.
• 40:51
  Tina Strachan: Connection is such a big thing.
• 40:52
  Tina Strachan: Hey, we've had these discussions before about connection and I think that's how I definitely helped me sign as well with my publisher was making connections with her.
• 41:02
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 41:04
  Tina Strachan: But you don't like, just in case anybody has listened to episodes before, you don't need an agent in Australia and you don't need a podcast.
• 41:14
  Tina Strachan: So, you know, you hear people talk about having a platform and you know, definitely having a podcast gives you a platform.
• 41:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, but prior to that, you know, it's hard like to have.
• 41:27
  Tina Strachan: To gain a platform.
• 41:28
  Tina Strachan: Really.
• 41:29
  Tina Strachan: And I guess unless you can organically do it, I don't know.
• 41:31
  Tina Strachan: I, I know, I mean, I spent years wondering how you could ever do that, but you still don't, you don't need a platform to either.
• 41:38
  Tina Strachan: It does all come back to the writing, but did you wanna talk a little bit about how.
• 41:43
  Tina Strachan: What it's done for you though, having an agent and how it's helped you?
• 41:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, for sure.
• 41:47
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, yeah, absolutely you do not need an agent.
• 41:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I spent a few months thinking about whether I should or not, um, because I've already got such an awesome relationship.
• 41:58
  Madeleine Cleary: With my publisher and, um, I didn't need that.
• 42:02
  Madeleine Cleary: But what I decided was that I'm looking for a long-term career in writing and I really wanted clear strategic advice.
• 42:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and also that editorial support and zeitgeist agency actually do, they're one of the few agencies that offer, um, editorial as well.
• 42:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, just because I've never done any writing courses or.
• 42:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Gone to uni to do writing.
• 42:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I, you know, it's a very organic thing and I think anything you can to improve your writing and get some good advice about.
• 42:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Next steps I'd written as well, a contemporary fiction novel.
• 42:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and, and so it was quite different to my historical fiction and so I wasn't sure what to do with that as well.
• 42:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, whether that should be my next, so that's where an agent can come in and sort of.
• 42:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Give you advice about your, your career, um, and what to do.
• 42:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And so it's funny though, because the timing last year when Sam signed me with Zeitgeist, um, we couldn't announce it for months because I, as soon as he signed me, he said, oh, I said, by the way, I've applied for the Australian Fiction Prize.
• 43:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I've submitted my manuscript.
• 43:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I hadn't heard anything at that stage.
• 43:13
  Madeleine Cleary: And he, I, but I knew he was a judge.
• 43:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, he didn't know I'd applied.
• 43:18
  Madeleine Cleary: He hadn't reviewed or seen any of the manuscripts, and they don't, they don't receive that.
• 43:24
  Madeleine Cleary: They only get the shortlisted ones.
• 43:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And so Harper Collins do the shortlisting for that.
• 43:28
  Madeleine Cleary: So I just wanted to let him know.
• 43:29
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, Hey, you know, and so he let them know.
• 43:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Immediately.
• 43:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And when he got the shortlist, um, sent to him, so this was after he'd signed me, my name was on the shortlist.
• 43:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And so he was like, oh, this is gonna, people are gonna think I've, um, you know, if we announce it, like there's gonna be conflict of interest.
• 43:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And he was, you know, very professional and removed himself from all of that.
• 43:51
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, the judging of my work and everything.
• 43:53
  Madeleine Cleary: So, yeah.
• 43:54
  Madeleine Cleary: By the time we could announce it, five months had gone by and I'm like, well, I just didn't want to felt like it.
• 44:00
  Madeleine Cleary: It's, it's gone.
• 44:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Felt like it was
• 44:02
  Tina Strachan: over.
• 44:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 44:03
  Tina Strachan: And that's, that's not unusual, is it?
• 44:04
  Tina Strachan: And for, for various reasons.
• 44:06
  Tina Strachan: You're told to sort of just hold Yeah.
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: For a bit.
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: And you know, people are sitting there with this awesome information and you know that they just wanna get out.
• 44:13
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 44:13
  Madeleine Cleary: So, but yes, and Sam, like zeitgeist are amazing and Sam's been fantastic for, I don't know.
• 44:18
  Madeleine Cleary: That it was absolutely the right decision.
• 44:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Decision.
• 44:21
  Tina Strachan (2): Mm-hmm.
• 44:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And I, I think, you know, that's helped me decide the direction as well.
• 44:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm really keen on historic writing and historical fiction and staying with a firm and, and sort of, you know, becoming a, um, as much as I can, a long-term career as, as much as I, you know, will continue to be, um, in that sort of space.
• 44:39
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, and it's just, I guess it is also nice to have someone in your corner who you know is in your corner.
• 44:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, that's been the other benefit.
• 44:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Having said all that, you do not need an agent.
• 44:50
  Madeleine Cleary: You can also get a coach, Catherine Collette's coaches.
• 44:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 44:54
  Madeleine Cleary: I've actually just started a little coaching thing as well.
• 44:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, uh, yeah, I'm, I haven't advertised it.
• 45:00
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm just taking, like, I've got a few clients now, um, who are just doing very select stuff, but, um, you know, because I think coaching, it is helpful to have someone in your corner.
• 45:09
  Madeleine Cleary: So, and I think there will be a few debut rider who, um, might be looking at doing some coaching as well for next year's crew.
• 45:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 45:19
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I think that's really important.
• 45:20
  Tina Strachan: 'cause you do feel a little bit on your own, don't you?
• 45:22
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 45:23
  Tina Strachan: I don't have an agent, Tash.
• 45:24
  Tina Strachan: And Tash doesn't have an agent either?
• 45:25
  Tina Strachan: No, I don't have an agent.
• 45:26
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 45:26
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 45:26
  Tina Strachan: And you, um.
• 45:29
  Tina Strachan: Do sometimes it's nice, it's nice to, you know, be able to just chat straight to your publishers, which you can do anyway when you still have an agent.
• 45:36
  Tina Strachan: But you know, there are, they deal with other things with your publisher, but, um, it's, yeah, sometimes, like you just said with your career.
• 45:45
  Tina Strachan: You know, the sort of that bigger picture stuff, not just your next deal.
• 45:48
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 45:48
  Tina Strachan: Like your bigger picture stuff.
• 45:50
  Tina Strachan: It's nice to have someone who knows the industry, knows what's happening and can guide on that.
• 45:56
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so I see definite benefits in that as well.
• 45:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 46:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 46:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's a good, it's a decision that everyone should think about because of course, you know, there is a cost element too.
• 46:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Like your agent doesn't work for free, they take 15%.
• 46:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, which is also really useful to know when you're thinking about it.
• 46:13
  Madeleine Cleary: But, um, I think if you are an emerging writer and looking to submit, it is worthwhile testing waters with a few agents to see their level of interest, because it's better, I think to approach agents first.
• 46:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And if you're getting all nos, then perhaps it gives you a bit of.
• 46:28
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, a suggestion, that's when you get a
• 46:30
  Tina Strachan: coach to help you with your practical writing.
• 46:33
  Madeleine Cleary: That's
• 46:33
  Tina Strachan: right.
• 46:33
  Tina Strachan: Happy to coach anyone on how to story grid their work.
• 46:38
  Tina Strachan: Actually, I can story, I'll sign up to that.
• 46:39
  Tina Strachan: Tina, into, into an Excel spreadsheet.
• 46:42
  Tina Strachan: Oh, Madeleine, guys.
• 46:44
  Tina Strachan: Madeleine's coming around to the spreadsheet.
• 46:47
  Oh, Madeleine, you can't, there's an episode in this.
• 46:51
  Please just let me do it.
• 46:53
  Uh, um, and do it for free.
• 46:57
  Tina Strachan: Um, yes.
• 46:58
  Tina Strachan: So that's where a coach does come in as well.
• 47:00
  Tina Strachan: You know, and I just wanted to say, uh, before we wrap it up as well, that, um, ways of getting in front of agents can be just as hard as it can be, just as hard to get in front of an agent as can to a publisher, but take advantage of, um, pitch sessions and, um, you know, conferences and events that offer assessments.
• 47:21
  Tina Strachan: A great way of getting your work in front of, um, agents and publishers, and you may have to pay, but, um, some really good things can come out of that.
• 47:30
  Tina Strachan: It's getting in front of them and they're reading it, and that's, that's, that's the first step everyone.
• 47:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 47:36
  Madeleine Cleary: And that feedback is so valuable.
• 47:38
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, yeah.
• 47:40
  Madeleine Cleary: As particularly like the CYA or you'll have to wait another year for CYAI think after this comes up.
• 47:44
  Madeleine Cleary: We'll, yeah, next week, uh, this weekend is the actual conference, so Right.
• 47:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Perfect.
• 47:49
  Madeleine Cleary: But the a SA do their quarterly pitch session sessions as well, so, um, do, do sign up to that.
• 47:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 47:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 47:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh well, grand's balls, pendulum spins, pen's, balls.
• 48:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Yep.
• 48:01
  Tina Strachan: Awesome.
• 48:01
  Tina Strachan: Very titillating.
• 48:02
  Tina Strachan: Madeleine,
• 48:05
  Tina Strachan (2): is it Grand's balls?
• 48:06
  Tina Strachan (2): Titillating.
• 48:09
  Natasha Rai: I'm not getting involved in this bit,
• 48:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha, by this conversation.
• 48:18
  Natasha Rai: Actually, no, not with granddad's balls.
• 48:20
  Natasha Rai: No, not
• 48:20
  now.
• 48:21
  Not anymore.
• 48:23
  Oh.
• 48:23
  Anyway, it was so lovely to chat to you ladies altogether
• 48:27
  Tina Strachan: and um, congratulations on one year of the book Deal podcast.
• 48:31
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 48:31
  Natasha Rai: Congratulations.
• 48:32
  Natasha Rai: You two set up an amazing podcast that're very proud.
• 48:35
  Madeleine Cleary: It's all Tina.
• 48:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Tina is, that's not.
• 48:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Has been at the, the helm of this ship, um, guiding us through the, the crazy waters.
• 48:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So thank you, Tina.
• 48:45
  Madeleine Cleary: All your podcast research information, voice memos, ideas, suggestions, it's amazing.
• 48:50
  Tina Strachan: Team effort, ladies, um, and look forward to another wonderful year of podcasting and interviewing.
• 48:57
  Tina Strachan: It's so fun, isn't it Fun.
• 48:58
  Tina Strachan: So fun.
• 48:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And if you want story grid coaching, go to Tina.
• 49:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh yep.
• 49:03
  Madeleine Cleary: DM me Are up.
• 49:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 49:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Bye bye.
• 49:12
  Tina Strachan (3): Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 49:15
  Tina Strachan (3): If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 49:24
  Tina Strachan (3): You can also find us on Instagram.