Latest / Identity at the Center / #290 - Digital Trust with Joni Brennan of DIACC

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#290 - Digital Trust with Joni Brennan of DIACC · Identity at the Center

0:00
That's my concern. That's what I don't want to have
0:02
happen is that wallets become another password and I have to
0:04
have like a key ring of a whole bunch of wallets hanging from
0:07
it. And that's kind of where we're
0:09
at right now. If you think about a wallet, I
0:10
don't know if that's a great analogy because the wallet just
0:13
contains a bunch of other stuff in it.
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But I have credit cards, I have identities, I have, you know,
0:18
coupons of things I've never used, right.
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There's all kinds of stuff in there and I don't know.
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Now think about if, if wallet is the analogy that we really want
0:26
here. And that's just that's, that's
0:28
my, you know, as of what's today, June 13th, staring at the
0:32
mountains in a pontificating way opinion.
0:34
What do you think, Johnny? Yeah, you know, Ding, Ding,
0:38
Ding, right. Like if you, if you, if wallets,
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if you have as many wallets as password, user IDs and
0:45
passwords, it's totally failure, right.
0:48
So yeah, that's definitely one of the one of the concerns and
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one of the things to not do. This is identity at the center
1:03
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:06
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
1:13
Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
1:20
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
1:22
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
1:25
Not so bad yourself. Would it be OK if I started the
1:28
podcast with a list of complaints?
1:30
Would that be like would that be normal for the the first few
1:34
minutes of an Identity to Center podcast?
1:37
It, it, it would be normal for you, yes, but I'm going to allow
1:40
it because I know that you and I have been struggling with a
1:43
myriad of technical issues for like the last month.
1:46
Go for it. I'm guessing that's what you
1:47
want to talk about. Well, no, I do have a list, but
1:51
I'm going to surprise you. I'm not going to complain.
1:54
You know, I had a whole thought about different things that you
1:56
complained about, but I'm feeling super fortunate at the
2:00
moment. The story I was going to bring
2:02
out, Hopefully folks have realized that we're publishing
2:05
now to YouTube as well as to, you know, all the audio podcast
2:09
platforms. And I sat with Denise and we
2:12
were watching one of the recent episodes and she's like, wow,
2:16
Jeff's background. Like is that a green screen
2:19
background? I'm like, no, no, that's the
2:21
background. His background looks so much
2:24
better than oh boy, here we go. Because you say.
2:29
I spent money on it. Well, the bragging part on your
2:31
own and it's like she's like, we got to upgrade your background
2:35
game. So I I don't have a timeline for
2:38
y'all, but I could say this all this behind us, as cool as it as
2:44
it is for me, it's going to be upgraded.
2:46
And I think what it is is like there's a whole room over there.
2:50
The whole thing's going to be turned around.
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Yeah. The only thing I can say is that
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like, I'm not big, big on change.
2:56
I I like things to stay the same.
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So that's going to be a little bit hard for me.
3:01
But overall, I think improvements are coming all.
3:04
Right. Well, if you want to jump on a
3:05
video call, we can. I'll help you design it.
3:08
I mean, most of streaming these days or recording is, you know,
3:12
visual quality, audio quality. Visual quality is camera and
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lighting. It doesn't matter really the
3:17
camera almost as long as you have really good lighting and
3:20
the audio is we've got, I think we've got that locked down.
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Maybe not today. We've had so many technical
3:24
issues, your stuff, but generally speaking, we have the
3:28
audio kind of taken care of. But yeah, let's let's do it,
3:31
man. I mean, I put a lot of time and
3:33
money into my office. I was like, look, I spend all my
3:35
time. I'm either there or I'm at an
3:37
airport somewhere. So let me just get this set up
3:40
and do it the way I do it. So I've got like smart lighting
3:42
in the background. Obviously not today.
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I'm in Las Vegas in a hotel room.
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But you know, my my home studio has has the set up and you know
3:51
I'm happy with the way it works. Yeah, well, Denise has decorated
3:54
my whole house except for my office.
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And when people come over, they're like, oh, your house is
3:59
so beautiful. Then they get to the office and
4:01
they're like, OK, probably wondering like, why isn't your
4:04
office beautiful? Jim did this, that's why.
4:09
Denise, you did such a horrible job in the office.
4:12
Now it was me. Well, yeah, let's work on it.
4:15
I mean, this is a work in progress, but yeah, we're doing
4:17
the video more, trying to get better at that same thing.
4:21
Like for my skill and video editing, it's still just you and
4:24
I, you know, when it comes to the podcast.
4:25
So yeah, a lot of a lot of work goes into it.
4:28
But you know, if I ever get out of identity, I feel like, well,
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I could do audio podcast editing or maybe some video podcast
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editing as a side gig or maybe want to retire or something.
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I don't know. You definitely could.
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It's you and I for every episode.
4:42
But I think what makes the identities to our podcast
4:47
awesome is our guest today. We have an awesome guest from
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the wonderful country of Canada. And I always thought like, if I
4:55
had to pick a country to move to, again, not big on change,
5:00
it'll probably be Canada. But like, here's the thing.
5:03
When I think of like, oh, I, I, I watch something like alone,
5:06
right. And that's like up in like Great
5:09
Slave Lake and like the top of Canada, I'm like, yeah, I would
5:13
live there. Yeah.
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That would be like a 5 hour trip to Walmart.
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So. You, you wouldn't have like, you
5:21
know, wired Internet or anything.
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I don't know. So I I I love the wilderness
5:26
that Canada has, but I'm also so addicted to convenience.
5:32
Well, I think once you fall into that lifestyle, I'm the same
5:34
way. So I am not interested in moving
5:36
to the wilderness. I want air conditioning, I want
5:39
electricity, running water, good food.
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I have said it before, I'm an indoor cat and I'm happy with
5:46
that. But yes, we do have a great
5:48
guest. We've got Joni Brennan, she's
5:51
the president at the Digital ID and Authentication Council of
5:54
Canada, also known as the DIAC. Welcome to the show, Joni.
5:58
Awesome. It's so wonderful to be here.
6:00
This is really one of the highlights of my career.
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Thanks so much for inviting me today.
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So I of course, prompted you to say that before we hit the
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record button. So, but I'll take it.
6:09
I'm going to isolate that and just get a collection of people
6:11
saying that when they come on the show.
6:13
But why don't we get into it and really kind of learn more about
6:16
your background? You know, it's the thing we do
6:17
whenever we have someone on for the first time is let's find out
6:20
about Joni, right? What's her identity, origin
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story? How did you get into this space?
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Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
6:27
Yeah. Well, thanks.
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Actually probably a little bit of both.
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I'm, I'm also a member of the ID Pro board.
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And, you know, I raised that because I think a lot of us who
6:37
are in the identity industry did kind of fall into it or somehow,
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you know, it wasn't necessarily a formal training for it.
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So I got my start. I went to Rutgers University in
6:51
New Jersey. It was located physically right
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next to the IEEE Standards Association.
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So I had a, you know, exposure to standards and what they were.
7:02
I kind of went straight out of communications and informatics
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degree at records into into IEEE to work on as a Webmaster.
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And that's Holt. And then, you know, we there was
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a number of kind of non traditional standards that were
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developing within that ecosystem.
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One of them, and I worked across many of them in my kind of web
7:28
and tech role. One of them was focused on this
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topic of digital identity and you know, of all of the projects
7:37
that I was working on, that digital identity, one really
7:41
spoke to me in terms of like the human technology intersection
7:46
and kind of how impactful this would be for society versus
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like, no offence to how do you hook up an interface with a
7:52
printer that's important, but you know, how are you, how are
7:55
people going to interact with technology and the identity
7:58
layer? So I, I really kind of was drawn
8:01
to that particular initiative and you know, from there went
8:06
from kind of being Webmaster to being a program manager for the
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software engineers in that initiative, which was the
8:13
Liberty Alliance and, and kind of, you know, stayed there and
8:18
never left. So I got my whole identity
8:21
management ecosystem, education really just by being a part of
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the nonprofit standards best practices ecosystem.
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And so I've, yeah, I've been a nonprofit for my whole career
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and basically an identity for my whole career, 20 plus years now.
8:37
A lifer. My, my, the wall.
8:39
Go Scarlet Knights. Woo.
8:41
Hoo, I need one of those? It's it's somewhere.
8:46
I need it digitally though. Well, it won't be in my
8:49
background for long, but for now it's there.
8:52
Love it. Tell us about the Liberty
8:54
Alliance. I think that's something that
8:55
you mentioned before and I guess I wasn't familiar with it.
8:58
I've I've only been an identity for 20 years, so maybe I'm the
9:01
rookie on the block, but tell me about Liberty Alliance.
9:05
Like what is that? Yeah.
9:06
So Liberty Alliance was an association, a membership
9:12
association, industry standards association.
9:16
And it was, if the audience is not familiar with Liberty
9:20
Alliance, they may be familiar with, with a protocol called
9:25
SAML, little thing called SAML which is rumoured to be dead but
9:29
is not dead, is is still very much alive.
9:33
So, you know, standard SAML was developed in the Oasis Standards
9:40
Association. And as it reached, as SAML
9:44
reached a point of maturity, another association called the
9:47
Liberty Alliance formed. And that association formed to
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extend SAML and to really codify it for federation use cases and
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to advance its adoption in federation use cases and build
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more assurance criteria and risk management criteria around it.
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So, yeah, so that organization was focused on that side of
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things. And I think I was there from, oh
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gosh, I want to say like 2003 until it until it reached its
10:20
end of its life until about like 2008, 2009.
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And yeah, it was quite the community.
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And you know, through that, through that effort and working
10:28
on federation and single sign on and you know what that ecosystem
10:32
of technologies, you know, had to offer also saw the rise of
10:38
things like another Canadian, Kim Cameron's seven laws of
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identity and open ID and open ID Connect.
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And so it's, it's been really interesting to see the
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progression from the SAML and Liberty Alliance days through to
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the, you know, technologies that were emerging now established
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and, and then, you know, the new protocol and models that are
10:58
coming into the space. So yeah, it was a, it was a,
11:01
it's an old school reference for sure.
11:04
And it's always awesome to get to talk about it a little bit
11:07
now. So Joni, with regards to Liberty
11:10
Alliance, I'm going to throw you one from out of left field here.
11:13
So in my early identity days, I was familiar with Liberty and
11:17
Alliance. Were there a, was there a lot of
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involvement from folks from General Motors?
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Because I kind of always had like in my mind that there was a
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big GM support or component of Liberty Alliance.
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So I'm asking you to like put on your time machine and go back I
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guess. Yeah, You know, I'm trying to
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recall, you know, something like General Motors.
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It's I, I can't say that I recall specifically them.
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Lots of organizations, I, I don't remember the number right
11:53
now, but definitely a substantial number of members.
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And in particular, you know, some jump out like, you know,
12:00
the old Sun Microsystems gang and, and folks who were really
12:04
putting forward, you know, at the forefront of open standards
12:08
development and open technology. So lots of amazing members and,
12:14
and telcos and, you know, global, global footprint.
12:17
So. But I don't remember if it was
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GM. So let's go ahead and say, yeah,
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GM was there and they were awesome.
12:23
Yeah. So I mean, I don't want to take
12:26
this for granted though. I mean, you know, putting the
12:30
going back 20 years identity was not standards based.
12:35
It was, you know, put agents on web servers and that's how you
12:41
would do authentication. And I think even when Samuel
12:44
came along, right, there were a lot of proprietary solutions
12:49
kind of running after, you know, solving the authentication
12:53
problem. And then there's a standard,
12:54
Samuel, one point O and then two point O started up someone and
13:01
not just someone, but a lot of folks had to kind of get behind.
13:05
There's some kind of rally around it.
13:07
And nowadays authentication, 95% of authentication is following
13:13
one of the major standards, right?
13:15
It's not, you know, proprietary solutions with web server
13:20
agents. And you know, it gives me the
13:23
thought that authorization today is still like authentication was
13:28
20 years ago. Everybody kind of rolls their
13:31
own when it comes to authorization and it seems like
13:34
it's an area, right for standardization and and kind of
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the the same kind of path that you were involved in as kind of
13:43
this old school identity person and kind of the liberty Alliance
13:48
driving forward the standards for authentication.
13:52
I think it's important to acknowledge it, right?
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I'm going to you know, like give you a high five year because it
13:59
laid the groundwork for where we are today.
14:03
If we're still we're 20 years ago and it was all proprietary.
14:06
I mean, this would be it would be almost impossible to scale.
14:11
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I think that you
14:15
know what you're touching on about authorization and and you
14:20
know how the ecosystem has evolved.
14:23
I think, you know, one of the kind of both interesting and
14:26
challenging things about the digital identity as a, as a
14:30
subject matter is there's so many lenses to look at it
14:34
through. You know, you can look at it
14:36
through the authentication side, through authorization.
14:40
I had a lot of, you know, wonderful opportunity to work
14:43
with folks like Eve Mailer and her work on UMA and, you know,
14:46
lots of different approaches there.
14:49
And, and you know, for identity, you could also be talking about
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consumer identity or enterprise identity or citizen identity.
14:58
And from a patternistic perspective, the capabilities
15:03
and what we're trying to achieve are, you know, there's, there's
15:05
common patterns there. However, from a kind of an
15:10
audience and A use case perspective, the, you know,
15:13
adoption, it certainly looks different when you're in the
15:16
enterprise ecosystem and it's like this is what you're going
15:18
to do versus OK, we want citizens to get on board with us
15:21
or we want to create delightful experiences for our customers
15:25
and our clients. So yeah, I think that's one of
15:27
the interesting things about identity is you can take so many
15:30
different angles on it. And then about authorization,
15:33
particularly, I'm also really kind of interested, I'm always
15:38
like thinking about people just like, how are people going to do
15:40
this? And, and thinking about, you
15:43
know, having things like consent and controls there And like,
15:47
what's the line? Like one person loves the
15:50
Android phone that you can tweak out all the things and do all
15:53
the stuff and you know, and other people love the iPhone.
15:56
It's like just set it up for me and go to me and I just wanted
15:59
to go. And so that's around
16:02
authorization and around identity in general,
16:04
particularly when you're dealing with the public, kind of,
16:07
there's going to be different lines or, or different,
16:10
different perspectives on, you know, what the person, what does
16:13
the person want, and also then kind of what's best for them and
16:17
what's best for the security and risk management of the
16:19
situation. So I I find those different
16:21
lenses fascinating and challenging, but but really
16:26
fascinating about the different ways that we can look at this
16:28
space. Yeah, really.
16:29
I feel like we could have an entire episode just kind of
16:33
talking about that. We have had episodes talking
16:35
about standards and how you drive from.
16:40
And I was thinking to in my, my initial thought was
16:44
authorization and authentication, like
16:46
authorization is such a harder problem to solve than
16:48
authentication. But that's today.
16:52
I think at the time you're looking at authentication, there
16:55
was no common standard. It wasn't so easy to solve
16:58
because there's probably a gravitation toward, well, we
17:01
need to come up with the standard that solves every
17:03
scenario, every use case. And I don't think that's the way
17:07
you attack something like that. You have to say, what are the
17:10
common use cases? Not it's not going to be 100%,
17:14
maybe it's 80%. And let's come up with a really
17:17
good solution for that. And then what you find is that
17:21
organizations kind of abandoned those edge cases and because
17:25
getting on the standard has so much benefit that you don't want
17:29
to be different. So anyway.
17:33
Sorry, go ahead. No, you'll go.
17:37
No, I was going to move on to our next topic, which was around
17:40
where you're at today, right? DIAC.
17:43
DIAC. A lot of our listeners might not
17:46
be familiar with DIAC. What is it that you all do?
17:50
Why was the organization founded?
17:52
And you know what is your mission today?
17:55
Yeah. So, so DIAC is a nonprofit
17:59
association. It was founded in 2012.
18:04
It was founded through a group of public and private sector, so
18:10
governments and private sector organizations who saw a common
18:14
need to advance digital identity and authentication for the
18:20
Canadian ecosystem. Now, the way that they came,
18:23
that came about is there was during the global financial
18:28
crash 2008, 2009, the Canadian financial ecosystem weathered
18:35
that storm arguably better than other jurisdictions.
18:40
And so the federal government, the finance department at the
18:44
time did a study of the electronic payments, you know,
18:48
the of the, you know, electronic payments ecosystem.
18:51
And they brought together public and private sector
18:53
representatives to recommend kind of what worked well within
18:56
our financial ecosystem and what didn't work well and where you
18:59
know where, where it needed to, you know, where improvement
19:01
would be good. Out of that report of that
19:05
electronic payments task force, there was a recommendation that
19:08
Canada's economy would benefit from a digital identity and
19:13
authentication framework, That that framework should be
19:17
developed through a collaborative of the public and
19:19
the private sector and that it should be developed in a self
19:23
governing body. So that it was, you know, not
19:27
going too far toward only public sector priorities or too far
19:31
toward only private sector priorities.
19:34
So This is why actually the Dai AC what I, you know, you know,
19:39
after this career in, in global standardization with Liberty
19:43
Alliance and, and frameworks with Liberty Alliance and the
19:45
Kantara initiative, you know, I got the opportunity to come do
19:50
this work in Canada. And one of the things that was
19:52
so interesting to me was that the mission was actually to
19:55
unlock Canada's full and beneficial participation in the
19:58
global digital economy. And I was like, I haven't been
20:02
in an identity organization that economic benefits for all was
20:06
the mission that was like really different.
20:09
So I think it's unique in the sense that we use.
20:13
Inclusive accessible economic benefits for everyone in the
20:16
global digital economy as that North star to bring public and
20:21
private to the same table. And then, you know, we're
20:25
developing, you know, what we have developed, you know, as a
20:28
Co Co collaborative initiative is the pan Canadian trust
20:31
framework, which is really sits on top of standards.
20:35
And so if you've got your, your samls, your open IDs, your
20:38
verifiable credentials or open source as the protocol that
20:42
you're deploying, the framework sits on top and codifies the
20:47
risk management profile requirements to, you know,
20:50
around how you've deployed that standard.
20:52
So that's like everything from how you've deployed the
20:55
technology to do you have insurance?
20:57
Do you have confidentiality policies and all of those pieces
21:01
that help to ultimately de risk the adoption of the solutions by
21:07
different, you know, whether that's by governments, private
21:09
sector or the public? There was some research that you
21:12
guys had put out too. And, and by the way, we'll have
21:13
links in our show notes to a lot of this information.
21:16
So you don't have to like remember URLs, things like that.
21:19
We'll just put in our in our links.
21:21
But there was one around the potential problem of identity
21:26
and branding. Do you want to it was that is
21:28
that ring a bell? First of all, it sounds like it
21:30
does. And what would you share with
21:33
the folks who are listening here?
21:34
Like what is the synopsis of that so we can point them
21:36
towards and kind of read the full, full research on it?
21:40
Yeah, thanks for that question. We've done 4 waves of research,
21:46
Canadian perspectives on digital identity.
21:48
We use a third party qualified research firm about 3000
21:51
Canadians coast to coast to coast.
21:55
So we've got, you know through these four waves and we're about
21:58
to do the 5th this calendar quarter this fall.
22:03
So we have both overtime data of consistently asking the same
22:07
questions as well as point in time data and asking questions
22:11
that you know mapped to what was happening during that
22:14
particular, you know, time. You know, we have seen slight
22:19
growth in, you know, when we ask people what does digital
22:22
identity mean, we've seen slight growth and understanding of
22:26
that. But over the course of four
22:28
years, we've only seen kind of general ability to conjure a
22:33
definition of digital identity only just crack over 50% and you
22:39
know, that's with assistance as well.
22:40
So you know, what we find is that most people don't
22:44
understand the words digital identity.
22:47
Sometimes they think it means something totally different than
22:51
than what we're putting forward. Sometimes it's just very
22:54
confusing. So we find about, you know, but
22:57
when we do explain what you know, what we mean by digital
23:01
identity, we find that 55% of people are very supportive, 23%
23:07
are unsure and 22% are completely just against the
23:11
idea. So, you know, that research just
23:13
helps us to know where we need to target our education.
23:17
Like what is that size and shape that that 23% who are unsure?
23:22
It also helps us to know that when we go out and we talk about
23:25
digital identity to people, we just need to assume that they
23:29
don't really know what we're talking about.
23:31
And so often what we, you know, what we've been shifting to is
23:35
words that are more naturally meaningful, like, you know,
23:40
maybe most people do seem to know authentication or
23:43
credential or digital wallet. So we're moving more to words
23:48
that kind of describe the action more than this, this word of
23:52
identity that seems to be very confusing to to to the audience
23:56
that we're speaking to. So this definition of digital
24:00
identity, this is something that we've asked in the past and
24:03
we've asked a lot of people, a lot of you know, Identarati,
24:06
we'll call it. And what is the difference
24:09
between IAM identity and access management and digital identity?
24:13
Because I'm curious here what your perspective is on this,
24:16
because we've heard every I, I so far, everything that I
24:20
thought would be a possible permutation of that answer.
24:22
But every time someone answers it if they hear a new one.
24:24
So for from your perspective, what is the difference between
24:29
identity and access management and digital identity?
24:32
Yeah. I think when I think about
24:37
identity and access management as a definition, I think about
24:40
it more as the collection of technologies, practices and
24:45
processes for what I would call traditional identity management
24:52
more in the ecosystem of federation single sign on
24:58
enterprise identity. When I think about IAMI, think
25:02
more of that space in maybe the more traditional sense of that
25:09
collection of, of tools. When I think about digital
25:14
identity, I think more in a more inclusive ecosystem of, you
25:23
know, even including, so you know, including that traditional
25:27
suite of, of technologies, practices and, and processes and
25:32
policies to also including, you know, identity identity
25:38
verification, identity proofing the, you know, the more kind of
25:44
Web 3 distributed identity, verifiable credentials.
25:49
So when I think about digital identity, I I I think that the
25:52
circle of different, you know, flavors of that it, it widens,
25:58
you know, for me and my thought. So I guess when I to make that
26:02
really short, when I think of I am, I think a little bit more
26:05
kind of traditional the foundations of everything that
26:07
we've built on. And when I think digital
26:10
identity, I I think more yeah, just inclusive of of the the
26:16
broad suite of models and technologies.
26:18
Now the other piece of that is what we have been shifting to as
26:23
well is we've actually been, and I don't know if we've just moved
26:26
the problem further to another side of the coin, but we've been
26:31
shifting more to digital trust. And digital trust is defined as
26:36
the technologies, policies and tools that help users to build
26:42
confidence in their use of digital services.
26:46
And I think that definition is more of kind of the output, it's
26:52
more of what we're looking to achieve because what what we
26:55
ultimately want is we want our our customers, our citizens, our
26:58
clients and you know, employees. We want them to have confidence
27:01
in the services that they're using and that they're
27:03
interacting with. So we've been shifting actually
27:06
to, you know, just to throw another complication into it.
27:09
We've been shifting to digital trust over digital identity
27:13
because, yeah, again, back to that first point, we find the
27:16
digital identity hook to be really confusing on the other
27:20
side for the listener. Well, congratulations, another
27:23
new permutation in the never ending saga of answers to this
27:28
question. I think it's a fascinating
27:29
question only because I don't think that there is a right
27:31
answer. I think context is really the
27:34
only driving force between how you would answer that question
27:38
because it's like, OK, well, what does digital identity mean
27:41
to you? Joni is going to be different
27:44
than what it means to Jim's dad, who we've talked about versus,
27:48
you know, my wife, my dog, right?
27:50
Other people who aren't in the business or have a different
27:53
viewpoint. So I always find it fascinating
27:55
when we get into this mix of, you know, what is I am, you
27:59
know, what is digital identity? How are they different?
28:02
Are they different? Why are they different?
28:04
And to me, it's just, it's, it's the context, it's who are you
28:06
talking to? And this idea of digital trust I
28:10
find interesting because I'm not sure if it sits at a higher
28:15
level than digital identity or is it the same level as digital
28:19
identity? Or is it like an outcome of
28:22
digital identity, meaning like it's kind of like not
28:25
subordinate to it, but you know, kind of the next level down from
28:28
that. And I could, I could, I'm
28:29
already playing in my head. It's like, well, I can argue all
28:32
three. So I don't know if that's the
28:33
right answer. Does that ever come into your
28:36
mind when you're thinking about that kind of thing?
28:38
Yeah, I think foundational to our profession in our ecosystem
28:43
is noodling away endlessly at definitions and what they mean
28:48
and what we think they mean. And, and, and I'm I'm here for
28:52
it, I'm all for it. I love these conversations.
28:57
So, so I think, I think it's good that we kind of keep going
29:00
through it and refining it. And I also think it's good that
29:02
we, you know, shouldn't try to, it doesn't need to be one
29:06
specific thing. I, I don't think we need to get
29:08
it down to a power of 1. Sometimes I think that's been a
29:10
challenge in our industry too. Like I like, you know, one thing
29:13
that really bothers me too, when I hear like even auto correct
29:18
on, you know, some tool that you're using to, to, to write a
29:21
paper or one, if, you know, I would get a journalist that
29:24
would kind of ask me questions, they would say a digital
29:27
identity. Are you going to have a digital
29:29
identity? And I'm always like, don't say a
29:32
digital identity that's going to scare people, that's going to
29:35
make them think like there's this targeted thing just moving
29:38
through the space and time. So I think even there, it's
29:42
like, I think it's a lot of fun and interesting and useful for
29:47
us to go through those definitions together.
29:51
I'm also just as equally and often more concerned about do
29:56
the adopters, whether those are whether that's lawyers or, you
30:00
know, law societies or governments or, you know,
30:05
private, private sector companies.
30:07
What I care about is do they see, you know, what problem are
30:11
they trying to solve and do they see the value and what, you
30:14
know, the work that we're doing to help them solve that problem.
30:16
And so I'm just as happy not to use the words digital identity
30:21
when I'm talking to somebody on the other side that, hey, we've
30:23
got something that can help you. Let's speak the language that
30:26
you speak and, you know, help it make sense for you.
30:30
I'm, I'm in support of that. You mentioned digital trust and
30:34
I know there's a few things that the DAC is working on now.
30:37
I think there's a trust framework.
30:38
I think we'll have a link in our show notes to that.
30:40
Can you talk to us a little about what that trust framework
30:42
is? You know, what is it, who is it
30:44
intended for? Is it something that is freely
30:47
available? Can anyone kind of use it?
30:48
Is it, you know, tell us more like, why is this valuable for
30:52
the community? Yeah.
30:53
So in true identity fashion, what is a trust framework?
30:59
You know, we could we could get into what that is.
31:01
And I've even heard people, I've heard people use the words trust
31:04
framework to mean federation. And then I'm like, I'm old
31:07
because that's a federation to me.
31:09
What you're talking about. It might be even federation
31:11
operator rules I think is more specific to what it is.
31:16
But I think even even that term trust framework can be
31:18
confusing. So what the trust framework is
31:22
and the way I describe it is that it's a risk management, an
31:25
assurance framework. And I find that those words seem
31:28
to be more naturally understandable for people on the
31:31
other side. Why?
31:32
Because what the framework is, it's a set of documents, digital
31:36
documents that have auditable criteria that step up in terms
31:42
of their rigour that help to help ensure that an organization
31:47
has identified the risks of potential harms within its
31:50
service and that they've mitigated the risks within
31:54
within that service. And so if you think like, you
31:57
know, risk on one side of the coin, and when you're managing
32:00
risk, you're building assurance because you're building more
32:02
confidence. So kind of think about those two
32:03
things on, you know, two sides of a coin.
32:06
So really it's it's this auditable set of criteria to
32:09
help send a signal that you've managed risk.
32:12
This is good because, you know, we all need to measure.
32:15
We have a responsibility to know that we've, you know, identified
32:18
potential harms and that we've managed them.
32:20
So this is something we should always do for our customers,
32:22
clients and partners. It also helps by providing a
32:26
tool, you know, that organizations can use while
32:29
they're building their services. So it can be guidance, you know,
32:32
prior to an audit and you know, if you've, if you've taken this,
32:36
if you've used this framework to build your tool and then to get
32:40
certified it, it gives you a layer of liability mitigation as
32:45
well. Because you can say, hey, we've,
32:47
you know, we've, we've adopted this framework.
32:50
The criteria is open, publicly available.
32:53
You don't have to buy it and we've gotten certified using
32:56
third party conformity assessment through information
32:59
security auditors so you can show that you've invested in
33:03
identifying those harm, potential harms and mitigating
33:06
them and how to 3rd party verify that.
33:08
So I think it's actually a really powerful tool that gets
33:11
under that's, you know, not always really understood in how
33:16
it interplays with technology, protocol and open source as part
33:22
of that, you know, those last miles to adoption to de risking
33:26
and building confidence for for that adoption.
33:29
So it's all publicly available. You can you can find it on our
33:33
site. It's also broken down into
33:34
different capabilities. So like there's one for digital
33:37
wallets, again, not prescribing the technology, but prescribing
33:40
the outcomes that those wallets should be needing.
33:44
It's available in English and French if you speak both
33:47
languages or one of those languages.
33:49
And it's really been again back to our mission around, you know,
33:53
global digital economy, inclusive accessible benefits.
33:57
It's really intended for application by any organization
34:00
that's operating in the digital economy, although there are some
34:03
pieces that are of course more fine-tuned to to Canadian
34:07
principles in the Canadian ecosystem, you know, of course.
34:10
Well, we'll have that link in our show notes.
34:12
That one's relatively easy. Diac, DIAC, c.ca/trust Dash
34:18
framework. But again, we'll have that in
34:19
our show notes for people to check out.
34:22
You sent over a bunch of links before and I want to kind of
34:24
pivot slightly because you're getting something a little near
34:26
and dear to my heart, which is a podcast as well.
34:28
So you've got a, a podcast, or at least the DAC has a podcast.
34:32
Is it called Pod Trust Talks and Digital dives?
34:35
Is that the name of it? No, it's that's close though.
34:38
It's called trust talks, Trust talks and digital dives.
34:42
That's our DIAC pod. So yeah, trust talks and digital
34:46
dives. We've just rebooted the podcast.
34:50
Prior to that it was digital ID and me back to eating our own
34:54
dog food. We're finding digital ID isn't
34:57
resonating. So we're, you know, we're, we're
35:00
moving in more to that language around digital trust.
35:03
And, you know, I think that gives a part of why we did that
35:07
as well as to give a wider range of topics that can be covered
35:11
under that header. So yeah, trust talks and digital
35:14
dives. And we've had some amazing
35:16
guests like the, you know, the, the lead of our financial
35:20
regulatory scheme. We've had some amazing leaders
35:23
and, you know, doers and thinkers and it's just such a
35:26
privilege and an honor to be you know, you, you guys know you,
35:30
you get to you get to have many amazing conversations and raise
35:33
those up for everybody to hear. So yeah, if we'd invite people
35:36
to give a listen and if you have ideas on topics, let us know and
35:39
maybe you'll show up in our podcast one day in the future.
35:42
We'd love to have you. I'd.
35:44
Be happy to I think this is the great thing about the community
35:46
is people are generally willing to share.
35:48
There's very little secret sauce when it comes to identity.
35:50
We're generally all fighting a common enemy in this case.
35:54
Yeah, I get it. There's vendors out there,
35:56
right? And there's some competition.
35:57
But for the most part, I think the identity community is
36:00
extremely welcoming of new content and things like that.
36:02
So we're happy to promote it on our show and and drive people.
36:06
Hopefully we'll go check it out. So I'll have a link in our show
36:07
notes for that as well. I know we've been talking for a
36:10
little bit here, but you were at EIC.
36:12
Was it last week or was it this week?
36:14
I we time, does it mean anything?
36:16
I'm in, I'm in Las Vegas again a week after I was in Identiverse
36:21
for an entire week. So I don't know what day it is
36:23
anymore, but tell me about EIC, cause I've never been Jim's
36:26
never been. We've, we're, we're angling
36:29
maybe to try and get out there next year.
36:30
But tell me about EIC. What was it like?
36:32
Yeah. So EIC was last week, you know,
36:36
and let me just preface that with there's so many amazing
36:38
conferences in our ecosystem and I think, you know, we know we
36:41
could, we could be at a conference almost every other
36:43
week if we wanted to or more. And some of us have done that.
36:48
So, you know, there's loads and loads of great places to
36:50
connect. EIC in particular is, you know,
36:55
I, I'm, I love that conference because it's a place that I can
37:00
make sure that we're forging and supporting those European
37:06
relationships. And when I say European
37:08
remembering too, that there's not just one flavor to what that
37:11
means, you know, there's perspectives in Germany,
37:13
perspectives in Sweden. It can be very different.
37:16
So it's a great place to kind of connect with that ecosystem.
37:20
And it's one of the ones that I I try to attend as much as I
37:24
can. Identiverse is amazing.
37:26
I'll be at excite next week in in or two weeks in Toronto.
37:30
So anyway, lots and lots of great conferences.
37:32
EICI think that this year there was some interesting takeaways.
37:39
I did actually do a list of takeaways on LinkedIn and I
37:43
mapped each one to a popular song, changing the title
37:46
slightly so you if you follow me, you can find it there too.
37:51
But in terms of takeaways, yeah, the, you know, there may be, I
37:55
think that there are a lot we see there are a lot of pieces of
37:58
the puzzle on the table to put together for digital identity.
38:01
Like there's a lot of capabilities there.
38:03
Let's take another little piece of my capabilities, Janis
38:06
Joplin. So there's lots there to work
38:09
with and you know, it we're in a new level of maturity.
38:14
I've got Protocol wars, dead or alive, Bon Jovi, that's we might
38:18
be moving past the protocol wars and into, you know, as someone
38:22
who lived through, you know, Sam will open ID and all these
38:25
iterations, it's nice to be talking about how do we work
38:27
across technology stacks. So I think that's a real sign of
38:31
maturity for our ecosystem as well.
38:34
Then we had send in the wallets Barbra Streisand and that's
38:37
definitely driven by the European, the European Digital
38:43
Wallet initiative regulation that's come forward, which has
38:47
codified particular technologies in as well a lot of pilots in
38:52
the USDHSSVIP, some particular German government funded pilots.
38:57
So wallets, wallets, wallets, and then we had AI been
39:02
everywhere, Johnny Cash. So, you know, this is AI was
39:08
kind of laced through all of the comments, all of the
39:11
discussions, both in terms of what are the benefits going to
39:14
be, you know, what are the risks going to be going forward?
39:18
And I think, you know, as well as somebody who's been, you
39:21
know, seeing technologies come and go, I, I personally think
39:25
that there's AI is going to have more substantial impacts and
39:28
less vaporware than some of the other things we've seen come and
39:31
go. So it's good to see people
39:32
talking about the, the, you know, the benefits and, and the
39:35
harms in that space as well. So lots of great takeaways.
39:40
Oh, last one, and that I almost forgot was people are centered
39:45
the doors. And so this one was a comment
39:50
that kind of slipped by me, but there was a presenter on the
39:53
stage that said, ah, the, the model for SSI is intended to be
39:58
issuer holder verifier, not issuer wallet verifier because
40:02
it can be very easy to just kind of shift in we're issuing the
40:05
credential into the wallet, we're issuing the credential
40:08
into the wallet. Which then deletes the person,
40:11
the holder, which is supposed to be in control of this data,
40:14
which I'm guilty of too. So I was like, ah, I have to
40:17
remember that. That's a very good point.
40:20
So yeah, lots of good takeaways. And I think it's going to be
40:23
about. I just particularly love.
40:25
Yeah. Can we start working on trust
40:27
and insurance across different tech stacks?
40:30
And I think wallets or some other PKI trusted containers are
40:34
going to be interesting to see how they evolve over time.
40:37
So yeah, great opportunity to connect over there.
40:39
I hope you guys make it. It's a lot of fun.
40:42
They're a really fun group to work with.
40:44
Yeah, I have to find that LinkedIn post.
40:46
That's something. When you mentioned it, I
40:49
thought, oh, that's a cool idea. When you went through the actual
40:52
songs and ties to the topics, that's where I was pretty
40:56
impressed. But the digital wallets would be
41:00
remiss if I didn't kind of dig into that a little bit more.
41:04
I would assume that was like kind of one of the biggest
41:07
topics people wanted to talk about.
41:09
Digital wallets are really the verifiable credentials, right?
41:13
In my mind, the wallet carries the credentials, so there has to
41:18
be the tie in. What are kind of some of the the
41:22
key thoughts that you kind of like came away from the
41:25
conference with relative to wallets and credentials?
41:30
Yeah, I think again, yeah. So I think they're the wallet
41:36
staying on brand wallet can be an overloaded word, you know, So
41:41
I think we kind of love to lean into particular words and wallet
41:45
is it, but that might be some other trusted container, you
41:52
know, even with a browser or in a network.
41:54
So I think that's one thing to kind of keep in mind.
41:57
I think it's also what I really am keen to see is how both from
42:05
a technical perspective and also from a trust like assurance,
42:09
because you could have the best perfectly formed verifiable
42:12
credential, but if you haven't done the work to verify the
42:14
information in it, then what good is that beautifully formed
42:19
technical credential? So yeah, how how does the
42:22
technicals work and how does the trust, you know, validated on
42:26
both sides across different technologies.
42:30
And so for example, I see, you know, one ecosystem around
42:35
Hyperledger, Andy Aries and that, you know, that side of
42:39
wallets and SSI and then ecosystem around open ID for VCI
42:45
and open ID for VP. Then you've got the, you know,
42:49
the MDL ecosystem. So I think that ultimately
42:54
what's going to be really fascinating is seeing how these
42:57
different data models and different tech stacks, how will
43:01
that play in wallets? You know, how will that play in
43:04
the in the wallet ecosystem? By the way, wallets aren't
43:07
standardized. So I know there are groups who
43:09
are kind of working on parts of that as well.
43:11
We're in the early days. So yeah, I think that's going to
43:14
be a driver. Like how do you get these
43:16
credentials, present them or verify them across these
43:19
different tech stacks? And then I also think that if
43:23
we, I'm, I, my personal belief is that when people have
43:27
choices, that's an important part of building trust.
43:30
Like, oh, I can choose to use one thing or choose to use
43:32
another thing. You know, like building choice
43:34
into the ecosystem is important for adoption.
43:37
So I think as well, you know, having certification schemes on
43:41
the security and privacy features of wallets eventually
43:46
will be important signals as well.
43:49
You know, for kind of how that you know, how will issuers of
43:52
credentials kind of how will that inform how will
43:56
certification and potentially inform their governance or maybe
43:59
it'll be, you know, the Wild West, here's your credential,
44:01
put it anywhere. You know, I don't, I don't have
44:03
the answer to all these questions, but I do think that
44:06
having a certification scheme or schemes that can signal that
44:10
verification is another important piece of that
44:14
ecosystem too. So, so yeah, wallets are gonna
44:16
be, it's gonna be fascinating and umm, yeah, I'm curious to
44:21
see kind of how it all evolves and how that evolves between
44:25
independent wallets and large platforms and, and maybe back to
44:28
the beginning too, right. You're gonna have some people
44:30
that want that Android phone. I want to like control every
44:34
little thing in every little piece.
44:35
And then you're gonna have other people that are just like, oh, I
44:39
don't know about all these buttons and I don't know how
44:40
this works. And so we're also gonna have to
44:43
find ways through these new develop and implement ways
44:46
through these approaches like digital wallets to also help
44:50
people who need that easy button to have that easy button and
44:53
then the people who want to customize to do so.
44:55
But the fact is, is that that's set by the risk tolerance of the
44:58
ecosystem that's using it. So it's going to be cool space
45:02
to see it evolve and and you know, hopefully play a role in
45:05
that. Yeah, I, I feel like you just
45:08
covered the question I wanted to ask you because I don't have
45:11
skin in the game on this. I probably fall into more of
45:14
that secondary camp work. Like I just wanted to work, you
45:19
know? So I kind of feel like most
45:21
people are going to be in that camp of like what I really care
45:24
about is the credentials, the mobile driver's license, you
45:29
know, maybe it's like a whatever the credentials are like a
45:32
university degree or something issued by my employer or
45:38
organization that I'm part of. But I really don't care until
45:41
that I look at the wallet like a container.
45:43
Now there's functionality tied to it, which is especially
45:48
around the privacy, like I want to share this information.
45:51
I don't want to share that information and number of
45:54
configuration settings. I don't really want to have to
45:57
think about all those things, but I do kind of feel like even
46:01
if like specialized solutions become kind of like the winner
46:07
in the short term, I think the winner in the long term is going
46:10
to be the platform. I guess I'd kicked it to you.
46:14
And Jeff, do you kind of see that as well?
46:16
Or do you think that, hey, we're going to be walking around with
46:19
like, you know, corporation XY, ZS wallet technology because
46:25
it's the best, that everybody agrees that it's the best and
46:28
Apple runs it, Microsoft runs it, Android or Google runs it.
46:33
And like we've all just like said, it's just like Facebook.
46:38
You can't live without it. Everybody has to have, you know,
46:41
this wonderful wallet. Which do you think is going to
46:43
happen? I kind of want to hear Jeff 1st
46:46
and then and then she can take the last answer.
46:50
All right, well, here's what I don't want to have happen.
46:52
I don't want wallets to turn into another password.
46:55
If I have to have a wallet to have all my other wallets in it.
46:59
What did we solve for? That's, that's my concern.
47:03
And I, I, I, I think we've talked about this and maybe I've
47:05
mentioned the past and my viewpoint constantly changes as
47:07
it, and it evolves. But who's gonna, you know, who's
47:11
gonna be the responsible party for the wallet?
47:14
And in today's climate, right? If it's, if it's political, if
47:18
it's the government, 50% of the population is not gonna like it.
47:21
If it's financial, there may be accessibility issues with areas
47:26
that don't have the financial means to be on that wallet,
47:28
right? Or whatever that network might
47:29
look like if it's educational, again, there's disparities there
47:34
as well. So and and then it's like, OK,
47:37
well, do I run my own wallet? Like how does that even like, is
47:40
that a thing? Right?
47:42
Can, can Jim's grandpa, can I run my own wallet?
47:44
I don't know how that would even work.
47:46
That's my concern. That's what I don't want to have
47:48
happen is that wallets become another password and I have to
47:51
have like a key ring of a whole bunch of wallets hanging from
47:54
it. And that's kind of where we're
47:56
at right now. If you think about a wallet, I
47:57
don't know if that's a great analogy because the wallet just
47:59
contains a bunch of other stuff in it.
48:01
But I have credit cards, I have identities, I have, you know,
48:05
coupons of things I've never used, right?
48:07
There's all kinds of stuff in there and I don't know.
48:10
Now think about it, if wallet is the analogy that we really want
48:13
here. And that's just that's that's
48:14
my, you know, as of what's today, June 13th, staring at the
48:18
mountains in a pontificating way opinion.
48:21
What do you think, Johnny? Yeah, you know, Ding, Ding,
48:25
Ding, right. Like if you if you if wallets,
48:29
if you have as many wallets as password, user IDs and
48:31
passwords, it's totally failure, right.
48:35
So yeah, that's definitely one of the one of the concerns and
48:39
one of the things to not do. You know as well.
48:44
Like back to that point about choices, you might have your you
48:49
will personal view, you'll definitely have some people who
48:52
will not trust anything that says government issued wallet on
48:56
it. You'll have people who might
48:58
only trust something that says government issued wallet on it.
49:02
So this kind of comes back to that piece about it's a
49:05
strategically sound decision to purposefully build in choices
49:10
into your model so that the people who want to use, you
49:15
know, what an independent wallet can do so that people who want
49:19
to use a government one can do. So also, you know, the that
49:22
government wallet side of things like, you know, there is a
49:24
responsibility to making sure that those capabilities can be
49:28
there provided by government. If you need to use them, you
49:31
might not use them, but you know, there, there are different
49:33
layers there that are important too, you know, and then and then
49:38
kind of back to like, This is why I think certification is
49:42
important. And also, you know, it's one
49:44
thing to stand up a service, but to run that service over time,
49:49
continue to evolve, continue to invest in security practices.
49:53
You know, that's a big commitment, right?
49:56
And so there's going to be and then there's going to be another
49:58
group that's like, I just want to use the platform wallet that
50:02
comes with my phone, you know, that that I've been maybe I've
50:05
been using already for payments and things of that nature.
50:08
And So what I try not to do is say, Ah, it should only be this
50:13
one kind of wallet. I do think don't have, you know,
50:16
thirty of them. That's not going to be good.
50:19
But you know, somewhere between, you know, one and N, maybe one
50:23
and five, one and three is the right number.
50:26
But definitely build, build choice into that ecosystem
50:29
because you know, you'll need to meet people's, you know, you'll
50:32
have to meet people's needs and, and my own, you know, we also
50:35
sometimes have to separate here the the big tech governance
50:39
challenges that we're that we're all part of.
50:42
You know, we live in a data ecosystem and it's data
50:45
surveillance kind of based Internet and ecosystem.
50:48
So that's what we live in. So there are the very big tech
50:52
governance challenges that are really hard to unwind and
50:56
require, you know, policy regulation, all of that by the
51:00
same side of it. You know, if somebody said to
51:02
me, you know, like, do you want Apple between you and all of
51:06
your things? And then I'm like, ah, well, I
51:08
don't know, like maybe I've made some choices already about what
51:12
I want between, you know, me and my things.
51:15
And so, you know, but that said, Apple is a pretty high price tag
51:20
too, you know, if like paying for some of that.
51:22
I make that choice in that ecosystem for privacy and and
51:26
personal data protection. But maybe not everybody, you
51:28
know, can make that and certainly not everyone can make
51:30
that investment. So, yeah, I just come back to
51:34
it. It is a bit of the, the
51:36
innovative, maybe even messy front end of change.
51:39
There's, there's still, you know, this is like everything in
51:43
our industry, there will be evolution, there will be a
51:46
proliferation of these things and then there will be
51:48
consolidation around these things.
51:50
And so having a common set of core principles and getting this
51:53
more and, and getting wallets into a standardized ecosystem.
51:57
And, and I I think ideally having some certification
52:01
signals around it. These are all going to be
52:04
important parts of the puzzle, but definitely not 30 or 40
52:07
wallets. I hope not to wake up with that.
52:10
I will cry. If it ends up like that, Joni,
52:12
I've got your next song title for it and you don't even have
52:15
to change the name. Beautiful Disaster by 311 so.
52:20
There you go. Let's wrap up this conversation
52:23
because you've been really generous with your time and I
52:26
want to keep it on the on the music side of things.
52:28
Joni, you and I were kind of talking before we hit the record
52:30
button and kind of sharing some EDM appreciations that we both
52:34
have. I know Jim's not so much into
52:36
the EDM, he's more of a country guy, but I'm going to open this
52:38
up to everybody. And Johnny, we'll start with
52:40
you. What is a underrated or maybe
52:44
undiscovered band musical act? Something that like, like, wow,
52:50
these guys are really good. I wish more people knew about
52:53
them. Do you have anybody that's like
52:54
you think is kind of flying under the radar from your
52:57
perspective? Yeah, flying under the radar,
53:03
Yeah, I think there's, I think that there's tons out there.
53:08
I think. And also like there's such a
53:12
range of music, right? Like it's a little sad, but I
53:15
find that, you know, now with like all this accessibility to
53:18
music, sometimes I know the songs and I don't even know the
53:20
artist anymore. And I'm just like, no, I know I
53:22
dropped that on that playlist. So that's I hit that playlist
53:25
and I go, so that's that's depressing.
53:26
I have to work on that. But I think from if it was like
53:32
in the EDM ecosystem, there's so many producers.
53:37
One is G Jones, who may be a little less known.
53:45
There is. Well, maybe he's not less known,
53:49
but I am such a fan of Marc Rubier.
53:51
I love. He's a online
53:55
improvisationalist, you know, So if you don't know him, you got
53:59
to get to know him. He's a tough.
54:02
One, because it's like you can't, you have to recommend the
54:04
performance, not like a specific song, because if you know Marc
54:09
Rubier, everything is improved and he's like, you know, in the
54:12
middle of a street doing something or in his studio and
54:14
streaming something. And yeah, I'm a I'm a fan of
54:17
Mark Rebiier as well. But it's very it's it's
54:19
difficult. It's like you can't just say,
54:21
well, I want to go listen to this song or even this album.
54:23
It's just go watch a YouTube video and just watch what he
54:28
does, which is amazing. Definitely, definitely.
54:31
That's a good one. I, I, that's, I haven't thought
54:33
about him in a little while, but yeah, that's a good one.
54:35
Do you know about yourself? What's like a under the radar
54:38
band or music? And I guess it doesn't actually
54:40
have to be like new, right? I mean, I think people are
54:43
always discovering new music. Maybe it's just been around for
54:46
a while and like, what are you thinking about?
54:48
So what I was thinking about was I just saw Morgan Walland for
54:51
the first time this weekend. I don't think anybody could
54:54
claim he's flying under the radar, right?
54:58
He's not flying under the radar. Also didn't get to see it, but
55:03
Carrie Underwood performed in the same festival.
55:06
Again, not flying under the radar.
55:08
I think about people like Chris Stapleton, Luke Combs, all not
55:12
flying under the radar, but there's another.
55:15
People who are flying way above the radar.
55:18
Way above the radar. OK, so now I'm going to go down
55:20
level in terms of radar. Riley Green, he's not under the
55:26
radar if you follow country music, but just unbelievable.
55:31
His lyrics are unbelievable. He's really good, but really not
55:36
under the radar either. I would, you know, 01 other that
55:41
I didn't mention above the radar Jelly roll, you know, again,
55:46
like everybody knows who these people are now I'm going to
55:48
mention one that is under the radar.
55:50
I think Dave Fenley, you know, probably there's going to be
55:54
some people out there like everybody knows Dave Fenley.
55:56
So look up Dave Fenley and he does a cover of Stuck On You,
56:01
which is the old Lionel Richie song.
56:04
That is crazy. You know, when you hear somebody
56:06
do a cover and you're like, oh, that's so much better than the
56:08
original. There you go.
56:11
There's a cover so much better than the original of a really
56:14
great song and just his boys. I mean, this is a guy who you're
56:19
going to hear about. He'll be a headliner at some
56:22
point. So I don't, I know half of those
56:24
names you mentioned. I'm just not into the country
56:26
side of things. But OK.
56:28
So that's a good one. Let me think.
56:30
I've got a couple Rez REZZ on the EDM side of things.
56:34
I think she's a brilliant producer, creator, whatever.
56:37
Whatever we're calling EDM people at this days.
56:41
I think that one's fantastic. And this is old school, but the
56:46
Orb, so this is like from the 90s.
56:50
I want to say kind of an electronic music, but Orb's
56:54
Adventures in the Underworld is it's like a, it's, it's a
56:58
classic EDM album, but it is like just super chill and so
57:04
many different layers and beats and samples and all kinds of
57:06
stuff going on. It's it's a classic.
57:09
It's definitely worth checking out.
57:10
It's it's an experience like you sit there, you put your
57:13
headphones on and just kind of get into the music and just kind
57:16
of vibe to that. So I'll say Rez and the Orb.
57:20
I don't think I I think the orbit's a little maybe too old
57:22
people and they kind of really discover it.
57:24
But I don't know if any people, many people know about Rez
57:27
unless you're sort of into the electronic scene.
57:29
I don't know Joni, you know Rez. She wears, she wears cool
57:32
glasses. Yeah, she's.
57:33
Got she does. Yeah, she's got little like
57:35
Spiral. Things yeah, so and she's she's
57:38
a great painter so. Yeah, well, did you?
57:40
Are you Were you guys Sesame Street fans?
57:43
Well, I mean I watched it define fan like do you?
57:46
Do you? Remember the pin?
57:48
Do you remember the pinball song 123456789101112?
57:54
Do you know who does that song? Do you know who does it?
57:58
The Pointer Sisters? There you go, Pointer Sisters.
58:01
There they go. Yeah, yeah, I just recently
58:04
learned that. Sorry.
58:04
It blew my mind, I think. No, that's fantastic.
58:07
I forget all the any stuff. You know, if you listened in all
58:10
the way to 59 minutes, that was that.
58:13
We learned all day today, no offense to any.
58:14
Of us. All right, let's do.
58:17
Congratulations. Yeah, we had a great time and it
58:19
was such a fun conversation. We'll wrap it up here.
58:23
We'll have links in our show notes and you can connect with
58:26
Joni on LinkedIn, learn more about the DIAC.
58:29
I'll put links in there to a bunch of different sort of like
58:31
good old pieces of info research and the podcast that you guys
58:34
do, all that good stuff. And Jim and I, we're happy to to
58:37
be guests whenever you'd like us.
58:38
Just let us know. We're happy to share opinions
58:41
either on this show or anyone else.
58:43
So we're happy to do that. Let's see what else, Jim.
58:47
I know the YouTube channel. I will get it out there,
58:49
youtube.com slash at IDAC podcast.
58:52
We're continuing to incorporate video into the podcast.
58:57
So appreciate a like and subscribe, share with a friend,
59:00
share with an enemy, doesn't matter as long as they hit that
59:02
like button or subscribe button or both.
59:05
Let's see webidacpodcast.com, Twitter or X at IDC podcast,
59:10
Macedon IDAC podcast at infosec dot exchange.
59:15
And yeah, I think that's it. Anything else, Jim?
59:18
Did I forget anything? They get it.
59:19
They get it right. You got it right man, especially
59:22
the YouTube channel. But we love our audio only
59:24
listeners. Heck, I'm an audio only listener
59:27
so I don't wanna watch us on video.
59:30
But even if you don't watch us on video, just go out and
59:34
subscribe anyway because it helps us.
59:37
Yeah, let it play and just in the background and, you know,
59:39
entertain your children. They've got to learn about the
59:41
world. And what better way than to
59:43
start with identity? Maybe we'll start marking
59:44
ourselves as like kids content. We'll put like, I don't know.
59:47
Oh, maybe we can. Joni, so you mentioned Sesame
59:50
Street. Does that qualify?
59:51
This is now kids content. Can we mark this one?
59:53
I don't know. We'll find out.
59:55
OK, that's it. We'll leave it for this week.
59:58
Thanks everyone for watching and or listening and we'll talk with
1:00:01
you all in the next one. You've been listening to
1:00:05
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
1:00:10
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
1:00:14
But in the meantime, hit the website at
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1:00:23
the Center.