Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Navigating the Customer Service Landscape | The Christian Reeve Podcast #341

Transcript

Navigating the Customer Service Landscape | The Christian Reeve Podcast #341 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome back to the Christian Reeve podcast.
0:06
Today we are continuing the series on customer service.
0:12
I, I don't know if we're going to do any more.
0:16
I actually forgot about this part, to be honest.
0:20
I've been pretty busy doing, you know, unfun customer service
0:25
stuff, funnily enough, and also just trying to figure out life.
0:32
This this year was was a creative.
0:37
What's the word I'm looking for? I didn't get as much creative
0:40
stuff done as I as I wanted to. Sometimes it's like that when
0:45
you're chasing your dreams, chasing creative stuff.
0:48
And yeah, you know, when that happens, you end up falling into
0:53
customer service jobs. And sometimes it can be brutal.
0:56
I was on set the other day and thank God I was on set.
1:00
I just, it was so happy. I was so happy to be back on set
1:06
acting with people and, and there were bonkers moments, but
1:09
I loved every second of it. I love acting, I love film
1:12
making. I love the creative industries,
1:15
be it acting, music, content creation.
1:18
I don't care what it is, I want to be a part of that.
1:21
That's what I was born to do. And just being around those
1:25
people, I just, it's my people, man.
1:27
I feel at home. And there was, there was a girl
1:31
there, a quite young actress. And we were just talking about
1:35
jobs outside of acting. And she said that she had to get
1:39
up at 4:00 AM for her work. And I was like, and I just, I, I
1:45
immediately knew how she felt because I've done it like a
1:47
million times. And you know, I'll be going to
1:50
work after this podcast is complete today, complete my, my
1:56
words. I'm still waking up.
1:57
But I, I wanted to just jump into this customer service takes
2:02
a lot from you. It really does.
2:04
And we're going to get into that today because this is kind of
2:07
like the closing chapter, I suppose.
2:09
So we'll really kind of get into the nitty gritty and my, my
2:13
thoughts on customer service, because I've tried to give quite
2:17
a balanced opinion. I've been quite forthcoming with
2:21
negative opinions, but I've tried to sprinkle some positive
2:24
stuff there as well because obviously the there is the big
2:27
question, well, why would you do something you hate?
2:31
And we'll get to that. But in anything in life, I
2:35
always try to see and find the positives as much as I possibly,
2:40
possibly can. And even in something I hate,
2:45
there's always potential opportunities.
2:47
There's always things you can draw upon, you know, but you
2:54
know, if you're doing too much of something you don't like and
2:56
not enough of what you love, it's just it's not where you
3:01
want to be, you know that. And you feel, you feel stuck.
3:08
But as I'm glancing at these questions, this is touching on a
3:11
lot of the stuff I'm going to cover.
3:12
So I'm just going to get into the questions and we'll kind of
3:14
go from there. Thank you so much for watching
3:17
this series. Thank you so much for watching
3:19
and listening to the Christian Reeve podcast.
3:21
I am aware there are people that just listen to the show, which
3:25
is perfectly valid. It's a podcast.
3:28
It should be about the listening experience and not just about
3:32
seeing what you see on screen. I don't know, I just, I can't
3:37
fathom the idea that people would want to sit and listen to
3:40
my voice, to be honest. But there's a few of you, So
3:43
thank you and I hope that you're enjoying the show.
3:48
I wasn't planning on getting sentimental, but you know what,
3:51
five years, 341 episodes. And you know, I went from
3:59
entering the new year with like no shows lined up and just
4:02
feeling really deflated to having a completely full January
4:07
now of guests coming up and just being excited about the show
4:12
again. And that's what I always want to
4:15
feel like with this podcast. I'm going to, I'm going to throw
4:19
more energy into it and try to get more guests off my own back
4:22
rather than just relying on hopefully people might see the
4:26
form or reach out. You know, it's lazy.
4:29
I, I've, I've become lazy, even though I'm not a lazy guy.
4:32
And I think ironically, part of that is feeling deflated from
4:36
not getting enough creative work and not having enough
4:40
opportunities. But sometimes you really just
4:42
have to take the bull by the horns and, and take more control
4:45
and, and kind of force it. So I'm going to try and force
4:48
life to give me more opportunities.
4:50
And hopefully with any luck, my life might change for the
4:55
better. Who knows, Maybe 2026 is my
4:57
year, as cringe as that sounds. Question number one, why do you
5:02
keep working in customer service even though you dislike it now?
5:06
It's a great question because over the years I've had a lot of
5:11
people say things like, well, why don't you just quit if you
5:14
hate it that much, why don't you just get a new job?
5:18
I don't understand. Now the key in that response is
5:22
I don't understand. Yeah, you don't understand.
5:24
If you're not living my life, if you're not in my position, then
5:28
you'll never understand. The only people that ever tend
5:30
to understand where I'm coming from are people that sit and
5:34
actually listen to my story and then go, oh, or creatives.
5:39
Ironically, I don't even have to explain it to creatives.
5:43
They just get me within 5 seconds because they're dealing
5:45
with the same battles. Now, I'm not saying that you
5:49
have to be a creative to understand.
5:51
It's just that a key thing to to keep in mind is that when you're
5:56
a creative, when you're an artist, whatever, you approach
5:59
life in a completely different way.
6:02
So if you're working full time in customer service or you're
6:05
working like a nine to five office job or whatever, the way
6:09
you live your life is completely different.
6:11
So of course you're going to look at someone like me and
6:13
think I'm insane for the way that I approach life.
6:16
But you have to remember that I'm not some airhead who's who
6:20
just doesn't understand life and doesn't know what they're doing.
6:24
There are people like that out in the world that just kind of
6:27
bounce from thing to thing and are kind of clueless.
6:30
But I'm a 32 year old man. I've been doing this a long
6:33
time. I know what I'm doing.
6:35
Do I know everything all the time?
6:38
Absolutely not. Do I have it all figured out?
6:41
Absolutely not. But I can tell you from having
6:43
worked in a lot of different jobs over the years, seeing
6:46
what's out there, I've kind of cultivated a life that enables
6:51
me to make money and survive, albeit just about while also
6:58
being able to pursue creative jobs.
7:01
So that's kind of like maybe number one reason why I keep
7:05
working in customer service Cos. And like I said, I try to sing
7:08
its praises. Customer service is one of the
7:11
only types of industries out there that enables creatives to
7:17
be able to pursue what they need to pursue.
7:21
You know, like be it acting gigs or music or whatever.
7:24
Like if you're in a nine to five, try turning around to your
7:27
boss and saying, oh, can I just get Wednesday off?
7:30
Can someone cover me? That's going to be an instant
7:32
no. If you're lucky and you have a
7:35
good relationship with them, maybe you might get a last
7:38
minute holiday or they might make allow you to take unpaid
7:42
leave. Very unlikely in that kind of a
7:44
job in customer service, much more likely someone can cover my
7:49
shift. I can take unpaid leave, you
7:52
know, as a casual worker, for example, I can just not work the
7:56
shift. You know, obviously there are
7:58
consequences to that and I have to work with managers to be
8:01
like, OK, let's try and arrange some cover.
8:03
Is it going to affect the team? So on and so forth.
8:06
You got to think about things like that because everything
8:08
that you do has a consequence on the team and on the business and
8:12
so on. But I managed to maintain good
8:15
relationships with the managers that I work with because I try
8:19
to be fair with how I do things. So, you know, I'll sacrifice my
8:25
time. You know, I, I don't care about
8:26
working Saturdays, for example, You know, I'll work them if I
8:29
have to. It's not a big deal for me.
8:34
But like it's kind of like I scratch your back, you scratch
8:38
mine kind of mentality and customer service is fantastic
8:41
for that. And there's a lot of different
8:44
types of contracts out there. Like I mentioned the the zero
8:48
hours contract, which basically is a situation where you're not
8:55
guaranteed any hours, but you also don't have to guarantee
9:00
your availability either, which for someone like me, it's
9:03
perfect. I can say, oh, OK, I'm available
9:05
for these days, but not these days.
9:07
And they can work around that. The danger of it is, for
9:11
example, I'm entering next year and one of my jobs has no hours.
9:16
They just won't have any work because there's no events on.
9:19
And they let us know ahead of time, which is fantastic.
9:23
But it, it makes things trickier in terms of like finding work
9:29
and like obviously entering a new year.
9:31
What am I going to do? Like it's, it's, it's just part
9:34
of how it is, unfortunately. But this is where like when
9:38
you're getting say a few acting gigs, a few, you know, music
9:41
gigs, whatever, and you're getting paid for those, it kind
9:45
of balances out because I've, I've seen a lot of people online
9:48
say things like, oh, if you're not earning from, say acting or
9:53
music, then you can't call yourself a professional.
9:55
Well, I can because I have earned from those fields and
10:00
I've earned consistently. Sometimes it's been my main
10:03
source of income. But I don't think that that is a
10:07
valid opinion to be honest. You know, I think a lot of the
10:12
time when people dismiss it and call it a hobby or whatever,
10:16
just it just kind of sounds like they're a bit butt hurt.
10:19
Like, you know, I mean, it's not, it's not your field anyway,
10:22
so why are you? So why are people so aggressive
10:25
with their opinions on these things?
10:27
That's the thing. Like I've had people attack me
10:29
for talking about like, why I don't like the nine to five.
10:32
Like they think that like I'm having a go at people and being
10:36
like, you know, screw you and your job.
10:38
Like, no, I'm just saying that I've tried it.
10:41
It's not for me, but it is for you and that's fine.
10:45
So why do people get so pressed, vexed, as the kids say, like
10:48
just so annoyed. I don't understand, you know, I
10:53
think it's because like they take it personally, even though
10:55
it's a job and like for some people a job is, is everything
10:59
to them. It's their career, it's their
11:00
passion in life. I completely understand.
11:02
That's why I try to do creative jobs because that's how I feel
11:06
about them. But I don't get upset when
11:09
people criticize what I do for a living, you know, like they, if
11:13
they criticize me for being an actor or a musician or a content
11:16
creator or, or even just doing customer service stuff, like
11:20
even though I don't identify it as my career or whatever, like I
11:23
don't, I don't care what people think, you know, I do it because
11:27
I have to do it. I do it because it enables me to
11:31
pursue the things that I need to pursue.
11:35
But people, just random people or anyone actually, I've, I've
11:38
had this since I was a kid, just people criticizing and being
11:41
like, well, you should live life like this.
11:43
You should do it the way that I did it.
11:45
You should do things this way because what you're doing
11:47
doesn't make sense. And it's like, how would you
11:49
know? Are you living my life?
11:51
No, you're not. You know, I'm not saying that
11:54
people's opinions are not valid. I'll turn that down.
11:58
But at the same time, like PP, people allow themselves a lot of
12:02
freedom when it comes to their opinions and kind of demanding
12:09
that you A, take them on board and B, do what they say.
12:13
And if you don't do what they say, then somehow you're an
12:17
idiot. And it's like, that's just not
12:20
true. I mean, with acting and music
12:23
and things like that, these things can take years to take
12:26
off. I mean, as it stands, and I've
12:29
said this many times, my goal is to earn from creative jobs for a
12:35
living. Now, I'm open to what that could
12:36
be, whether it be a career in TV, radio, as a musician, as an
12:41
actor, as a voice actor, content creator.
12:46
I'm open to all of it. You know, like I'm, I just want
12:49
to earn from doing these jobs and not have to rely on customer
12:54
service anymore or indeed any other type of job.
12:57
I feel that that's quite clear. I feel I'm very clear with my
13:02
goal. And you know, I managed to live
13:05
like this very successfully. You know, it's, it's hard, it's
13:09
a struggle. And I'm like many creatives, I
13:12
basically never have any money, but I'm able to, for example, be
13:16
off whenever I need to be. I'm able to spend time with my
13:22
loved ones whenever I need to be like whenever I like.
13:24
If it's like, oh, hey, we've got this coming up, I can be free.
13:27
Can you say the same? If you're locked into a job, a
13:30
contract job, they basically own you.
13:34
And that terrifies me. This is another reason why I
13:38
don't, you know, I work in customs service and I don't work
13:42
in say a nine to five job because a big one, which a big
13:46
point, which I think is a is a valid point is oh, but there's
13:50
more certainty in say having a nine to five or indeed having a
13:54
full time career in customer service because you get like,
13:57
you know, a set a set amount of pay every month.
13:59
Isn't that more reliable? Isn't that more?
14:03
Isn't that safe? And it's like, there's first of
14:06
all, there's nothing. There's no such thing as job
14:08
security anymore. There hasn't been for a very
14:11
long time. Loyalty doesn't mean anything.
14:13
I've seen people get fired after like dedicating their whole life
14:17
to something or dedicating like several years to a project or,
14:22
you know, like completely coming in and changing a place for the
14:24
better and getting fired because someone didn't like them.
14:27
Like loyalty doesn't count for shit.
14:30
You have to watch your back at all times and have a contingency
14:34
plan, have, you know, a second plan, a third plan, which I
14:38
always do. I always have something I can
14:40
walk into a way that I can protect myself.
14:43
And I've learned to do that over the years.
14:45
So for all the people that think I'm a airhead or I don't know
14:48
what I'm doing more for you, you know, I've, I've looked at each
14:52
and every part of this and gone. This is what works for me.
14:55
This is what allows me to survive.
15:01
Another aspect to this is that at the end of the day, I can
15:05
quit whenever I want like that. I don't have like really long
15:09
winded, what's the word notice periods, You know, there's no
15:13
commitments. I'm not stuck locked into a big
15:15
contract. I can walk away at any point.
15:18
It's it's perfect for me. You know, I can go jump on a
15:24
plane tomorrow and film something abroad like that.
15:29
And and like that freedom, Freedom is, is a big part of why
15:34
I keep using this type of industry, because not many
15:38
industries would enable you to have this flexibility.
15:42
And the good thing about these industries is that they
15:44
understand that they're getting people from all walks of life.
15:49
Yes, you've got some career lifers, but you you're getting a
15:52
lot of students, Like a lot of these jobs rely heavily on
15:55
students. And if you're lucky, you're
15:58
getting them for three years, you know, during the key
16:02
periods. And obviously you lose them at
16:04
holidays and stuff, but you're getting that flexibility.
16:06
And often students will be more flexible than most.
16:09
And then, you know, you might get a few people like my age who
16:14
maybe they're using it as a stepping stone or maybe they're
16:17
just trying to transition into something else.
16:19
And then you get the career, the lifers, and you make up a team
16:24
from that. And if you're lucky, it'll be a
16:26
good team. If not, you're going to
16:27
struggle. But managers are well aware of
16:32
this and I've been able to over the years form some pretty good
16:36
connections with managers by working with them and just kind
16:40
of making sure that we're covering all the bases.
16:44
So they make sure that I have the hours I need and the
16:47
flexibility I need. And then I make sure that I'm
16:49
there as much as I can be, say as a reserve option, like, hey,
16:53
I'll come work these shifts last minute.
16:56
I'll be flexible with my time. I'll work more shifts than I'm
16:59
supposed to. You know, it's, it's business.
17:02
I think people forget a lot of the time that you can negotiate
17:06
even in a standard job, like a part time job, you can
17:09
negotiate. You can always negotiate.
17:13
I think people just seem to think like, if you've got
17:15
something on the paper and it says option A or option B,
17:19
that's all you've got in life and it's not true.
17:21
There's option Z, there's option H, You know, like make your own
17:27
options. People might not always go for
17:29
them, but outline what you want, ask for what you want.
17:34
You'd be surprised. Sometimes you'll get it.
17:38
We'll move on. What kind of freedom does it
17:40
give you that other jobs might not?
17:42
So I, I, I think I've kind of answered this quite well, but
17:46
I'll expand on this a little bit more.
17:47
So with customer service, you're dealing with hours as opposed to
17:54
periods, you know, so in a standard 9:00 to 5:00, you know,
17:59
it's Monday to Friday, 9:00 to 5:00 or 8:00 to 6:00, eight to
18:02
four, something like that, right?
18:03
It's very set. There's no real room for
18:06
flexibility. Some jobs, if you've got a
18:08
really decent manager, might let you, you know, drop off work a
18:12
little bit earlier and maybe you come in a little bit earlier the
18:15
next day or something. But a lot of the time it's very
18:18
rigid and there's not really much room for flexibility.
18:22
Whereas with customer service, it's a, it's very common, you
18:26
know, often you don't even have to make up the hours.
18:30
You know, they just either won't pay you for the hours or you,
18:34
you know, you just make them up somewhere else.
18:36
And I think that that freedom is invaluable.
18:40
And so many jobs just aren't able to grant that, to be
18:46
honest. How do you balance survival with
18:48
chasing your creative goals? See, this is this is the tough
18:51
part. This year was very tough for me.
18:56
I didn't survive very well. I ended up like, I, I still to
19:01
this day, I barely eat it's, you know, one meal a day if I'm
19:06
lucky. And sometimes that meal is just
19:08
like a meal deal from Tesco or something.
19:13
So at its worst, it can be, it can be tricky, it can be
19:16
difficult and you've just going to kind of got to hang in there
19:21
and push through it. But it does mean again, that at
19:27
some point you will be available for other things and things can
19:31
change quickly. You know, things, things can
19:34
change in an instant, but once you're locked in, you're locked
19:38
in, there's nothing you can do about it.
19:41
I tend to balance it out by planning ahead.
19:45
You know, I use like spreadsheet documents and stuff.
19:48
I sit down, I plan it out, map it out, see how much money I've
19:52
got and then make sure that just like the bills are paid first
19:55
and foremost. And then, you know, how much do
20:00
I realistically have to to live on?
20:02
And you know, a lot of the time it's nothing.
20:04
And you know, I make use of things like one place might have
20:08
free meals, one place might have cheaper staff meals.
20:11
I try to make use of that. Reducing spending as much as
20:17
humanly possible. I mean, the only thing I'm ever
20:19
really buying is food, to be honest.
20:22
I, you know, I can't remember the last time I bought myself
20:25
like clothes or a thing that I wanted.
20:27
Like that's, that's, that's a big thing about my position.
20:31
People say like, oh, are you going to go on holiday this
20:34
year? You know, are you going to spend
20:37
money on this, on that? And it's like I don't have
20:39
money. Like, you know, sometimes I
20:42
allow myself a few drinks here and there at like an open mic
20:44
night or, you know, I might see some friends after a film event
20:49
and have a few drinks. But when I say a few, I mean a
20:52
few like, because I just don't have money.
20:56
And that, and that's the the sucky part about this.
20:58
But until you're getting like a kind of a sustainable income
21:02
from something, that's the reality, you know?
21:06
And next year, I really want to try to shift things for myself
21:12
so that I'm actually earning through creative jobs
21:15
consistently. I need to make some big changes.
21:19
And I, I don't know what to do. I don't know how I'm going to
21:22
change it, but I, I need to, I need it for my own happiness and
21:29
satisfaction. I guess it's just, it's really
21:32
important. But yeah, how do I balance it?
21:36
Barely Do I ever feel trapped or do you see it as a necessary
21:41
stepping stone Now this is an interesting question that I
21:46
definitely have felt trapped over the years.
21:49
Although wisdom and experience wisdom, you moron.
21:56
Experience has taught me that it's important to keep in mind
22:03
the fact that I can walk away at any moment.
22:06
The fact that to remember who you are and what the journey is
22:11
and what the goals are and to kind of reinforce that.
22:14
Sometimes I definitely feel trapped a lot of the time, but I
22:18
know I can walk away. I know I'm not locked in.
22:22
I know I'll always find something, you know, even if
22:28
it's something I hate, I'll they'll always be money, But
22:33
it's frustrating when you know you're there more than you
22:36
should be. You know, I was talking to a
22:37
friend the other day about sometimes you end up working
22:41
essentially full time hours and you're like like this, I'm just
22:45
working here now, like this sucks.
22:47
I don't want to be here, but that's the reality.
22:52
If there's nothing coming in creatively, then you might as
22:56
well use the time to earn some money.
22:58
You know, it's, it's kind of otherwise you're just sitting
23:00
around at home and nothing's happening and now you get
23:04
depressed. So yeah, I don't really see it
23:09
as like a stepping stone per SE. I've done like everything there
23:13
is to do in customer service and there's not really, there's no
23:18
links between the creative industry and, and customer
23:20
service really there's not much crossover.
23:23
Sometimes you'll, you'll service events in the creative industry,
23:27
but like you're not really going to get a chance to network much
23:30
because you have to work, you know, and they're not seeing you
23:35
in all your glory. They're seeing you as a service
23:37
worker. So, and I'm not saying that
23:39
there's anything wrong with that, but you have to understand
23:42
that context is key. And also, you know, people look
23:49
down on the service industry and, and they really shouldn't,
23:51
but they do. That's what society is like.
23:53
That's that's been a big part of my experience and I've never
23:59
thought it's OK. I think it's disgraceful that
24:01
people act that way, but that's the reality.
24:05
How do you stay motivated when you know this isn't your forever
24:08
job? A big thing that I've been
24:11
doing, especially in the last year, is anytime I get anything
24:15
creative at all, I throw myself into it 100%.
24:20
I treat it like it's the biggest opportunity I've ever had.
24:24
Like right now doing this podcast, right?
24:26
I know that this podcast is unlikely to reach a lot of
24:30
people. If I'm lucky, the people that
24:34
have been listening to the show for a while will continue to
24:37
listen to the show and they'll get something out of it.
24:40
And that gives me motivation. There's always the thing in the
24:45
back of my mind of things could change, things could evolve.
24:49
You know, there's always room for change.
24:52
There's always room for life changing moments to happen.
24:59
But a big way that I stay motivated is is, you know, as I
25:02
say, I throw myself into it. I try to stay positive and I
25:07
also try to remember some to have some gratitude for the fact
25:16
that I at least get to pursue it, you know, in some shape or
25:20
form. Like some people don't even get
25:22
this opportunity. And that's something that's
25:24
really resonated with me in more recent times is, is to remember
25:28
that, you know, not everyone gets a chance to chase their
25:31
dreams. So I really have to make the
25:34
very best of this and try and get as much as out of it as I
25:39
possibly can. This year wasn't really my
25:41
fault. You know, I really, it was the
25:44
year of music. I, I really tried to push music
25:46
this year and I always transition to the thing that's
25:52
busiest and, and focus my attention on that as much as
25:56
possible. I don't ignore other things.
25:58
I just kind of divide my time accordingly.
26:01
But you know it, it didn't really lead to much.
26:04
Unfortunately. I've struggled to get any
26:08
attention towards my music. I'm proud of it still like, you
26:13
know, I, I released an album, 3 music videos.
26:16
I did, you know, professional photo shoots for it.
26:20
I promoted it for a year, you know, I did everything I could
26:24
do. If people don't like it or it's
26:28
not good enough, then it's just whatever, you know, like that, I
26:31
guess that's it. But for me, it's I did that.
26:34
You know, I can always say I have an album and that's pretty
26:38
cool to be able to say that. Same way I can turn around and
26:42
be like, I've done a podcast for five years, I've acted for six
26:45
years, done voice acting for six years.
26:49
I've been on television. I've I've done films that have
26:52
reached all around the world and have won awards.
26:56
I've done audio dramas that have won awards.
27:02
I'm proud of what I've done. Even if it's not good enough for
27:04
other people, it's good enough for me.
27:06
And I'm going to keep pushing until I make some progress that
27:12
I would consider major progress. I, I suppose, but you know,
27:19
really addressing this question, how, how do I stay motivated?
27:22
I mean, I just try to throw myself into the work.
27:26
You know, if I get demotivated, I'll take a minute, reflect, try
27:32
to find some motivation elsewhere and throw myself back
27:35
into it. You know, like I lately I've
27:38
been a lot more productive, for example.
27:41
And I, I, I think I found I caught myself feeling a little
27:45
bit lazy. And I think that's more because
27:47
I was just beaten up from this year, deflated from this year.
27:51
But that's no excuse, you know, yes, you're going to feel like
27:54
that sometimes and you're going to have those moments, but I
27:57
can't allow that deflation to, to lead to inaction.
28:07
That's the key. That's the big, big lesson I've
28:09
learned. Has customer service taught you
28:12
anything that helps in your creative work?
28:15
You know, that's a great question.
28:18
I think it's pushed me to be a lot more open, you know, and
28:23
I've, I've, I've never really struggled with, with talking to
28:26
people. I'm not an extrovert per SE.
28:30
Like I'm kind of like an, what they call like an ambiver or an
28:34
omniver. Like I'm somewhere in the
28:35
middle. I'm perfectly happy just
28:40
chilling on my own, doing my own thing and, and you know, like I
28:43
get shy sometimes I get socially anxious and, and, and stuff, but
28:48
I can push myself through that comfortably and make it work.
28:53
And customer service is so daunting sometimes.
28:56
You're in a room full of like 200 odd people or more,
29:00
thousands of people sometimes and or like you're the sole
29:04
bartender and all eyes are on you or you know, you're always
29:09
performing. It's a very performative role.
29:13
But you, you, you're the information point.
29:17
You got to be confident. You got to know your stuff.
29:19
People are going to challenge you.
29:22
You got to approach people and it's nerve wracking just
29:26
approaching strangers. It's always nerve wracking.
29:29
I don't feel shy anymore. I just do it.
29:32
And customer service has really pushed me to do that and I'm
29:38
very grateful actually, to be honest.
29:41
Do you ever draw inspiration from customers or Co workers for
29:44
your writing, acting or music? Yeah, I've written songs about
29:48
shitty managers I've had in the past.
29:51
I've spoken. I think I've written about
29:55
customers as a concept before. I've certainly drawn upon the
30:00
feelings that customer service has brought out of me, but yes
30:05
would be the short answer to that question.
30:08
How does working with people influence your ability to tell
30:12
stories? It doesn't.
30:19
I don't really know how to answer that question really.
30:24
Like I learned to tell stories, I suppose through like watching
30:30
other people tell stories, like people I look up to, people like
30:34
CM Punk, Jim Cornett, Dave Chappelle, you know,
30:39
storytellers. And I would look at the way they
30:46
would break down a story and the things they would include, the
30:51
things they would omit. And then I would look at my own
30:54
way of communication. And I, I lean into that.
30:59
Obviously when you're telling stories, you've got to look at
31:02
how much time you have, how much attention you've got and work
31:06
within those constraints. But I don't know, I don't really
31:11
feel like working with other people influences my ability to
31:14
tell stories. Doesn't make a difference
31:18
really. I don't know, maybe I'm missing
31:20
something there. Let me know in the comments or
31:22
the, the feedback for, for the show.
31:26
I, I'm lost on that one. Stumped.
31:29
Do you ever feel like you're living a double life?
31:32
The worker versus the artist? Yes, all the time.
31:37
When I, when I step into customer service, I'm, I'm
31:43
basically on autopilot. Well, like when I'm working bar,
31:45
I'm on autopilot. If I'm serving in a room, I'm,
31:49
I'm on autopilot. I'm just paying attention to the
31:52
variables that I need to pay attention to and just getting on
31:58
with it really. Me Christian just kind of ceases
32:03
to be really. But my personality comes out.
32:07
For example, when I'm chatting with Co workers, I crack jokes,
32:11
I have a laugh because it keeps us sane, you know, because it's
32:16
very easy to get depressed in this line of work, to be honest.
32:19
You deal with a lot of crap from and you sometimes you have to
32:24
make the impossible possible. And it's very difficult to do
32:27
that sometimes. And by that I mean like you've
32:32
got loads to do and maybe not enough people to to to do it or
32:36
not enough time to make it happen.
32:38
And you just have to figure it out, make it work.
32:41
Or you've got impossible demands from customers.
32:44
And yeah, it just seems like they can never be pleased.
32:48
And you just just still have to find a way to make it work.
32:54
And you just learn to kind of build up a resilience to that, I
32:58
suppose, and just get on with it really.
33:05
But me as a, you know, Christian is a totally different person.
33:11
You know, I, I often don't even really talk about my life
33:14
outside of work at work because it's, I'm just there to make the
33:18
money and leave. You know, I, it, it feels a very
33:21
like an empty experience to me. Like I love the conversations I
33:25
have with people. Sometimes I talk to customers
33:28
and I, I'll just forget that I'm even serving and I'll just chat
33:32
to them as humans and you know, I might talk about my life and
33:35
then they get interested obviously.
33:37
And you know, and then I feel human again for 5 minutes.
33:41
Customer service really dehumanizes you.
33:45
I know I'm really heavy on customer service here, but like,
33:48
it really does. You have to perform.
33:50
You have to play this character like the customer service guy,
33:54
you know, like there's so many things I don't subscribe to,
33:58
like I don't I'm not going to sit and and smile all day.
34:02
Fuck you. I'm a human.
34:04
You know, I don't want to be here.
34:06
I will be positive and helpful, but don't expect me to walk
34:11
around with a big fucking grin on my face all the time.
34:14
You know, I sometimes they're lucky I'm even there, like with
34:20
some of the hell that people have to go through in their
34:22
personal lives. And then consider this, right,
34:26
You're having the worst day of your life now.
34:29
You got to walk into a room that requires your constant attention
34:35
and people who require you constantly to be on in an office
34:41
job, you can kind of escape it a little bit, factory work,
34:44
something like that, where you can escape it and just focus on
34:47
your job and be alone with your thoughts.
34:49
That's invaluable. Customer service.
34:51
You don't get that. You're right in the thick of it,
34:53
and you just have to put aside your problems.
34:56
And so I feel like on those days as well, like the universe
35:00
really tests me and tests us and gives you, like, the worst
35:05
customers. And it's like, there's been so
35:07
many times I've been tempted to just walk out because I'm like,
35:12
this is too much for a human being to have to deal with.
35:16
But yeah, you know, you just have to make it work and realise
35:22
that it's just a job. You know, for people whose
35:25
career this is, I, I salute you. I I don't know how you do it.
35:30
I couldn't do it as a career. I just couldn't.
35:38
I understand the passion element of it, but like I, I find it
35:41
difficult sometimes when when people belittle you.
35:44
I've always struggled with that and I'm very confident in who I
35:46
am. But when another human being
35:49
belittles me because they deem me to be lesser than based on
35:53
status, like I can't rationalize that in my head.
35:57
I can't discard that and be like, whatever then.
36:00
Like to me that's so unbelievably disrespectful and I
36:04
want to challenge it, but I'm like, well, I just have to just
36:07
forget about it. Get on with this fucking job.
36:11
It's brutal sometimes. It really is.
36:14
If you could make a piece of art that expresses what this feels
36:18
like, wow. What would it look or sound
36:20
like? I guess it would be just a a
36:24
song. It's a good idea actually.
36:28
I might try and do that on on my next record, see if I can guess.
36:33
Make a song. That would explain the customer
36:36
service job as a concept. Now there's a challenge.
36:43
I might try and do that on my next album, but that's what I
36:46
would do. I would do a song.
36:47
I don't know what it would sound like, Probably quite aggressive
36:51
in nature. I imagine there's going to be a
36:53
lot of angst in there, I feel. What does working in customer
37:01
service teach you about humanity?
37:03
You know, when I was going through these questions and I
37:05
saw that question, one thing came to mind.
37:12
And I don't want to sit here and be capped in negativity, but I
37:18
think it teaches you the worst about humanity.
37:21
I think it teaches you that so many people feel like they don't
37:30
have any control in life or, you know, they feel lesser than in
37:36
life. And so they choose to pick
37:41
customer service reps or, or workers as their target as like
37:48
their pinboard. Imagine it's like I put your
37:50
face on a dart board and I start throwing darts at it.
37:53
Like that's how customers treat us a lot of the time.
37:57
It's very dehumanising as an experience and I've dealt with
38:06
everything. I've dealt with like really,
38:07
really posh people who were like, oh, excuse me, worker boy.
38:11
Like I've had that. I've had people click fingers at
38:14
me. I've had people, you know, spit
38:16
in my general direction, throw food.
38:20
I mean, I've seen it all, man. And it teaches me that people
38:24
lack respect. It teaches me that a lot of
38:29
people are scum of the earth, to be honest.
38:33
And if that sounds like you, then you should be ashamed of
38:36
yourself. I, I, it's, it's taught me that
38:40
there's not a lot of patience in, in humanity, especially when
38:44
it comes to anything to do with food, anything.
38:47
Like I, I worked in a, I've worked in a lot of different
38:50
customer service jobs over the years, but in particular when I
38:53
worked in a supermarket and when I work in hospitality, I noticed
38:59
that if it's to do with food and drink, people are especially
39:03
disrespectful. It's like even before I got into
39:09
customer service, I never would have dreamed of speaking to
39:11
people the way I've been spoken to.
39:13
You know, I understand being disappointed with like the
39:16
service you've received sometimes, like if you feel
39:19
ignored or or like people you know aren't making any effort,
39:23
like I get that, but like I've got like I can.
39:28
I always go out of my way for people.
39:29
Always. I do the job to the best of my
39:31
ability, but if it look, if you're rude, I'm going to match
39:36
your energy. I'm not going to you know, they
39:38
say killer my kindness. I don't do that.
39:39
I'd fuck that. Like no, don't disrespect me.
39:42
You show respect. I always think about the very
39:48
first person who trained me in hospitality.
39:50
And they said the best way to think about it is imagine you're
39:55
inviting someone into your home. How would you treat them?
39:58
How far would you go? And I always look at hospitality
40:02
like that, make people feel as comfortable and as welcome as
40:05
possible. Now, the flip of that is I've
40:08
invited you into my home. If you're going to disrespect
40:10
me, get the fuck out of my home. But this is the thing.
40:16
In customer service, there's this pressure, like, oh, no,
40:19
we've got to please everyone. Oh, no, no, no.
40:21
The customer's always right. And it's like, bullshit.
40:23
No, no, they're not. What?
40:26
Like, why? Why can't we just get rid of
40:29
these disrespectful people? I don't want them here.
40:31
Do you want them here? No.
40:32
Then let's get rid of them. Like, I don't want their money.
40:35
I don't want anything to do with them.
40:36
Get them the hell away from me. And that's the way I look at it,
40:40
you know? And you can't change my mind on
40:42
that. But yeah, it's taught me that
40:48
people just lack basic humility. I guess it's, it's very
40:52
disappointing. Every once in a while there'll
40:57
be a lovely person who might tip you or, or just be really lovely
41:01
and genuine. But I don't know, Every time I'm
41:03
dealing with a customer, I, I guess I just brace myself and
41:06
then whatever happens, happens. That's what it's like.
41:09
You're dealing with constant anxiety.
41:12
Why do you think society undervalue service workers so
41:15
much? I've I think I've answered
41:17
variations of this question before, but basically they deem
41:23
it to be the low skilled job that anyone can do.
41:27
And let me set the record straight for all time customer
41:32
service workers unite here. You're all agree with me here.
41:35
There is nothing easy about working in customer service.
41:40
And the reason is not to do with the tasks themselves.
41:44
It's to do with the plate spinning that you have to do all
41:49
of the different jobs you have to manage at one time.
41:53
You have to have impeccable timing.
41:55
You have to figure out how things are going to, for
42:00
example, delay you and how to counteract that.
42:03
So for example, let's say I'm at the bar and I've just been asked
42:06
to do cocktails, right? That's going to slow me down by
42:10
at least 10, maybe 15 minutes, depending on the cocktails that
42:15
have been asked to be made, depending on how many there are.
42:18
You know, now everything gets pushed back and I have to figure
42:21
out how to address that. If it's just me, I've got to
42:26
speed up. I've got to try and counteract
42:29
that as best I can. If there's people around, maybe
42:31
I can grab someone, be like, hey, can you just do these few
42:34
jobs for me so I can play catch up?
42:38
There's so much that you don't see.
42:40
You think it's just, oh, delivering a few plates to a
42:43
table? I mean, if that's your
42:46
estimation of what customer service is, then you're ignorant
42:50
and you have no idea. I think everyone should have to
42:53
work six months in customer service and then maybe you can
42:59
turn around and tell me that it's not a hard job.
43:02
I mean, look, there's, it's a thankless job.
43:05
You get paid minimum wage. You get treated like this
43:08
disrespectfully all the time. You come home exhausted.
43:11
You often have to wear clothes and shoes that quite frankly do
43:17
not match the job you're doing, like like dress shoes when
43:21
you're running around all the time and it's destroying your
43:24
feet and, you know, it's hard, like moving around in a space
43:29
when you're wearing those kind of clothes.
43:32
It's exhausting. The whole thing is exhausting.
43:36
And you know, on top of that, now you got to deal with these
43:40
disrespectful people as well that look down on you because
43:43
what, because they studied like, I don't know, a law degree or
43:46
they're a doctor or whatever. And they just think like, oh,
43:48
you're, you're here to serve me. You're, you know, you're my
43:52
slave or something. Like I, I don't, I don't know, I
43:56
don't know why society undervalues service workers, but
43:59
I think, you know, at the end of the day, you're undervaluing
44:03
something that is highly valuable.
44:12
You're you're undervaluing and under appreciating something
44:15
that takes a lot of hard work to achieve to pull off.
44:19
You think about the very best restaurants that are out there.
44:22
The reason that they're the best restaurants is because of that
44:25
team that is working tirelessly to make sure that you're the
44:32
service you receive is impeccable and not delayed in
44:35
any shape or form. A lot of hard work goes into
44:37
that that you don't see, and that maybe is is the reason why.
44:43
How does it feel to work in an industry built around pleasing
44:46
others while often being mistreated yourself?
44:51
You know, it's funny. Like, one thing that's always
44:55
kind of irritated me is, is sometimes you end up like being
45:00
told to treat VIPs or celebrities differently.
45:03
I treat everyone the same way. I don't care who it is.
45:06
The job is to serve people. I will serve them to the best of
45:09
my ability. But yeah, it it when it happens,
45:14
when you get mistreated, there's this moment where you stop and
45:19
you think I could just walk off right now.
45:22
I could, I could just drop everything, just walk out.
45:25
And I've been tempted many times and I've seen Co workers do it
45:29
and I respect them for it. I think you got to weigh it up
45:33
in your head. How much is it worth?
45:35
How much is yourself respect worth?
45:38
And the answer to that question is yourself.
45:41
Respect is worth a hell of a lot more than this low paid job
45:46
where you're being disrespected. That's the reality.
45:51
People feel trapped. People feel like they can't do
45:53
anything. And the reality is you can, but
45:56
you've got to be courageous. You've got to fight a little
45:58
bit. And it's scary.
45:59
It's scary to dip your foot in those waters and and stand up
46:03
for yourself against customers, against a a dodgy manager,
46:07
whatever the case may be. It's hard.
46:12
It really is and sometimes it can.
46:15
It can feel brutal when you know you're really struggling and you
46:18
see, you know all these customers are really happy but
46:21
you know you're miserable. It's a bit of a mind fuck to be
46:25
honest. So I think you have to like try
46:29
to disassociate yourself from it as much as possible.
46:32
And I think this is really where the team dynamic comes into
46:35
play. You, you really rely on your
46:38
team in those moments and like banter and having fun.
46:41
If you've got a good relationship with your team, it
46:43
makes it more bearable I think. And I, I try to lean into that
46:47
as much as I can. Do you think customer service
46:50
work changes your empathy for better or worse?
46:53
I don't let it affect my empathy.
46:57
If anything, I use it to reaffirm my thoughts and
47:00
feelings about how I approach things.
47:03
I'm not going to allow ignorance and a lack of empathy from other
47:09
people. I'm not going to allow that to
47:13
affect me. I keep it in mind, you know, as
47:18
a kind of a what not to do kind of scenario.
47:22
But I don't, I don't let it affect me.
47:29
You know, I the last thing I would want to become is one of
47:32
them ignorant customer. What would a fair human centred
47:39
version of hospitality look like?
47:42
I mean, isn't hospitality already kind of human centred?
47:46
I I don't really know what that means.
47:52
Fair, human centred version of hospitality.
47:58
I don't know how it could really be fair.
48:03
I don't know. I don't know how to answer that
48:04
question. I'm going to move on.
48:06
Final questions, What keeps you going when it gets hard?
48:08
The team jokes, cracking jokes. Any chance to go on my phone and
48:15
talk to normal people or try and get some cheeky creative work
48:20
done counting down the hours until I get to leave that, you
48:25
know, only 5 hours to go, 3 hours, 2 hours.
48:29
I, I literally do that and it's bad, but that's how it is.
48:33
How do you protect your creativity from being drained by
48:35
this work? Trying to have decent amounts of
48:39
rest periods and as I mentioned earlier, trying to find
48:43
motivation again, either from others or from taking a break
48:50
and then coming back to things. You have to find a new lease on
48:54
life and, and, or sometimes having a day off really helps,
49:00
helps me. Certainly having a day off I
49:02
think is a big aspect to this. What do you dream about when
49:06
you're behind the bar or found in napkins or clocking out?
49:11
I normally do Daydream about like really basic stuff like,
49:15
oh, I got to send these emails or Oh, I've got a work on this
49:21
thing. I'm normally thinking about
49:22
stuff I need to work on, like I need to learn these lines.
49:26
But yeah, I I guess I've daydreamed about future
49:33
scenarios. You know, my favorite Daydream
49:36
is I'm sitting being interviewed on a show, something like
49:41
Parkinson or, or, you know, like a serious interview show.
49:45
And it's like someone interviewing me about my life
49:49
and I'm a successful actor or musician or something.
49:55
Yes, I know it's sad, but who cares?
49:57
I it's a dream. How do you define success for
50:00
yourself beyond the paycheck? I can tell you now, there's no
50:03
success in the paycheck. There's nothing there, just
50:13
progress. Progress.
50:17
You know, like look, if I, as I said many times, if I was
50:21
earning regularly from creative jobs, I would consider that a
50:26
success for myself. If someone is listening in A and
50:32
they are stuck in a similar job, what would you say to them?
50:36
Now that's the big question, isn't it?
50:44
OK, this isn't forever. Stay strong, hang in there, have
50:50
a plan, and if you don't know what your goals are right now,
50:58
try to ascertain what that goal is, what that aim is for you,
51:03
and then build a plan. Get short term goals that are
51:07
going to build you towards that. Never stop working on things,
51:11
ever. Even if you've only got a little
51:13
bit of time, never stop working because you will just fall into
51:17
the spiral and get stuck in this job and then that's it.
51:21
So don't get stuck, make progress.
51:26
Instead work on on making some progress.
51:29
That's the key. Thank you so much for watching
51:32
and listening. I hope you got something out of
51:36
this. Hopefully, I hope.
51:37
I hope it wasn't too serious. I know the others 2 episodes are
51:41
a bit more happy go lucky, but I don't know, a lot of these
51:46
questions were pretty serious and I, you know, that this is
51:50
not something I take lightly, you know, I mean, it's something
51:53
I've, I've had to do on and off for like 11 years.
51:56
So I think I've learned a lot about it and I've got some
52:00
pretty strong opinions and I know a lot of people agree with
52:03
me on this that have worked in the industry, but I hope it, I
52:07
hope it was useful in some way. I hope it was beneficial and
52:13
hope you enjoyed it. Until next time, I'll see you in
52:17
the next one.