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74. Caterina Sforza - Renaissance Woman · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to an air Wave media podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Hi everybody, and welcome to Hood and What Now the
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  Speaker 2: history podcast that's not your history class with me your
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  Speaker 2: host Kitty Charlwood, History Harlot and reader of books. Welcome
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: back friends, Romans, countrymen. But if you are new here,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: this is your disclaimer. Here on this show, I like
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  Speaker 2: to use language which some have referred to as is
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: colorful as Belfast Street art, So you might want to
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• 0:45
  Speaker 2: for delicate ears. If you do happen to be easily
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  Speaker 2: offended by the occasional expletive, then this may not be
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: the podcast for you. If, however, you're not worried by
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: the words ship, his or bollocks, then salutations and welcome
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: to the Gill the historical Dissent. Now, before I get
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  Speaker 2: into anything else, I want to thank you so much
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  Speaker 2: for your five star reviews. I've been getting them on Spotify,
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  Speaker 2: on on Apple podcast. It's it helps so much. You
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: have no idea. I was number eighteen in Croatia. Croatia,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I was in the thirties in Pakistan. Who is listening
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to me in Pakistan? How do you understand my accent.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Now nobody's get an excuse. I'm sorry, Croatia and Pakistan,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: you are, you can understand me. Nobody has an excuse. Now,
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  Speaker 2: nobody has an excuse. I don't care if you get
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  Speaker 2: it granted. I am still impressed that people are listening
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: to me in Ukraine because I like to go through
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  Speaker 2: the analytics and see where you know, the majority of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: my audience is from, and I like to see where
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I'm ranking in different countries, and it does take me
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of time, and sometimes I'm not even ranked,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: but I spend a lot of time just going through
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: and it's amazing to have all this reach and have
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: people like listening to me across the globe. Like I
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: don't know how else to to explain how how weird
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it is. I mean, it's fantastic, but it's it's really
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: really humbling actually because like little ode me, you know,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: in a bedroom in rural Ireland, and there are people
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: in like massive cities in war zones and you know,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the back end of nowhere as well in other spaces,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and they're listening to me. You're listening to me, like
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: there's probably somebody in like rural Arkansas, does Arkansas have
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: a rural part. I don't know, but I just wanted
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: to say Arkansas. I could have just said Kansas. I've
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: been to Kansas. I know people in Kansas listen to me.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Although I don't think. I don't think it's quite rural.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's fine. But yeah I am. Oh,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I finally I put my ore in the ring. No,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that that's wrong, put my ore in, put my hat
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: in the ring. One of those things. I applied for
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: the Irish Podcast Awards again, so this year there's a
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: history and actual history section, so I've gone in for that,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: so that's going to be fun. So I'm in there.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: And I was planning to get into the Early Bird
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  Speaker 2: so it would be like one hundred year roles to pay.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And I got called twice on the day about having
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: it because ied like half the information filled in, but
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I just didn't have the audio ready to go, and
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I was planning to fix it once I got home,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: but unfortunately my phone was going crazy that day because
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: of the whole Titanic episode situation. And yeah, I missed
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: the deadline. So now I'm in with everybody else in
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: the later deadline, which cast more money, which is not
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  Speaker 2: the smartest option I've ever done in my life. But
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  Speaker 2: here we are, and hopefully, hopefully, you know, I'll at
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  Speaker 2: least rank because it'd be nice because I have an
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  Speaker 2: outfit planned. It's I have an outfit planned for an
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  Speaker 2: event in November that I may not even be invited to.
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  Speaker 2: So this is this is fun, this is good for me.
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  Speaker 2: But I know what you're thinking, You're thinking, what your
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  Speaker 2: gibber drabber in fact me, in fact you, I will,
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  Speaker 2: But first we've got to get our source on. Our
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  Speaker 2: sources are Caterina Sforza by Pierre Desdueriro Pasolini, Caterinus Forza
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  Speaker 2: and the Art of Appearances, Gender, Art and Culture in
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  Speaker 2: Early modern Italy by Joyce Devrees. A History of Milan
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  Speaker 2: under This Sporza by Mary Cecily Adde, The Art of
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  Speaker 2: War by Nicolo Machiavelli, Caterina Sforza, The Lioness of by
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  Speaker 2: Marco Veroli, Barons and Castellans, The Military and Nobility of
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Renaissance Italy by Christine Shaw, Katerina Sforza by Cecilia Brogi
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  Speaker 2: progy Progi, The tigriss of Forley Reneeso on Italy's most
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  Speaker 2: courageous and notorious Countess Katerina Riaro Sforza, Dimodici by Elizabeth
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  Speaker 2: liv and of course her old favorites Biography dot com,
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  Speaker 2: Smithsonian dot com, and History dot Com. I U sitting
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  Speaker 2: comfortably good, then let's begin. Okay, So now I know
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I'm the one that writes this and puts it all
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  Speaker 2: together and creates this. Clearly you can tell this is
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: on me by my terrible editing skills. But I have
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: noticed a sort of prevailing theme occurring across across the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: podcast as a general rule, and that unlikable women.
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  Speaker 3: I I love.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Talking about unlikable women because the fact they are unlikable
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  Speaker 2: it usually means that their story's been twisted in some
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: way and it's been messed about, and I want the truth,
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  Speaker 2: even if this person isn't, you know, a bloody angel,
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  Speaker 2: because humans are flawed and I think they're more interesting
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  Speaker 2: with it. And so that leads me to today discussing
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  Speaker 2: the life of an absolute bitch, bloody lover Katerinas Forza,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: who was probably one of the better represented characters in
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: the Assassin's Creed games, or female characters, I should say,
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  Speaker 2: like that that game series just just buggered up stuff
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  Speaker 2: all the time, especially when it came to women in history.
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  Speaker 2: But I mean it was fairly close when it came
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  Speaker 2: to her. But anyway, Caterina's Porza, the Renaissance swimen. She was.
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  Speaker 2: She was just a powerhouse of her time. And the
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: thing about her being unlikable is the fact that there
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  Speaker 2: were so many men at the time who had the
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  Speaker 2: same power, who were doing what she was doing for
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  Speaker 2: the most part, or at least some of it, and
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  Speaker 2: they would not be treated the same way. Like, if
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  Speaker 2: a man is cruel, it's like, eye's cruel, it's whatever.
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  Speaker 2: But if a woman is cruel, it's like, oh my god,
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  Speaker 2: how does she?
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  Speaker 3: Eh?
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  Speaker 2: But yet it's such a whole, a whole thing. And
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I mentioned her at all in
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: the Luquetio Borgia episode, which is still the funniest to me,
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  Speaker 2: because I spent like half of the time calling Cesare, Borgia, Cesare,
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  Speaker 2: and I.
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  Speaker 3: Was like, now, I'm not going back to record it.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not doing it. It's been two hours. It's cat
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  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, let's get into Katerina before I ramble for
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  Speaker 2: another like twenty minutes. Okay, So Katerinaza she was born
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  Speaker 2: in fourteen sixty three. Dow, we do we know anything else?
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  Speaker 3: Dew we?
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  Speaker 2: I mean she was born in Milan, which is good.
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  Speaker 2: We have a location and we have a year. See now,
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  Speaker 2: women in Estra usually don't get a birthdate, especially illegitimate ones.
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  Speaker 2: So Katerina was the illegitimate daughter of Galiazzo Marius Foza
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  Speaker 2: and his mistress Lucretzia Landriani. So this Lucrezia as opposed
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  Speaker 2: to knew Lucrezia. She was married to Count gian Piero Landriani,
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  Speaker 2: and so he was actually friends with Galiazzo, like like
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  Speaker 2: they were pals, and he was stooping the wife. It
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  Speaker 2: was a man Renaissance. Italy is a wild place. So
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: for the first few years of her life she is
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  Speaker 2: raised by her maternal side, her mom's side to the family,
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  Speaker 2: and she ends up being really close to her mum
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  Speaker 2: and they stay close throughout like all of her life.
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  Speaker 2: But when she's three, you know, galliad so he becomes
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  Speaker 2: the Duke of Milan, and so all of his children
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  Speaker 2: are brought to court. They're brought in and he acknowledges
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  Speaker 2: their existence. And this is handy because children are very
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  Speaker 2: good bargaining chips. They're really handy for alliances things like that,
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  Speaker 2: especially daughters, because they are easy to sell. Did I
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  Speaker 2: say sell, I meant trade? Did I say trade?
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  Speaker 1: I meant find them a good decent husband so that
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  Speaker 1: they can have a good marriage for God and stuff
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  Speaker 1: and political alliances.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, so she grows up being from an Italian
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  Speaker 2: noble family, she gets educated. It's a humanistic education, so
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  Speaker 2: she's learning science and math and Latin and other languages
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  Speaker 2: that I'm not entirely sure of Italian obviously because she's
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  Speaker 2: from Italy, but I assume that she learned like other
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  Speaker 2: sort of notable languages in the area. But like, this
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  Speaker 2: is the same sort of thing we saw with Katherine
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  Speaker 2: of Argon. Like noble women, high ranking women, a lot
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  Speaker 2: of them received the same type of education as their brothers.
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  Speaker 2: Because you didn't want to fuck them about. You didn't
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  Speaker 2: want to raise stupid kids, right, that was their goal,
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  Speaker 2: Like you wanted them to be astute.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're doing that.
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  Speaker 2: But also this is like the burgeoning sort of renaissance.
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  Speaker 2: It's coming, it's coming over the hill, and so you know,
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  Speaker 2: they're being exposed to like poetry and art and music,
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  Speaker 2: like it's very enriched. Oh that's so Bourgie. I'm so
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  Speaker 2: bouge enriched. It's an enriched education, is that not? But anyway,
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  Speaker 2: so when Katerina and her siblings, when they're all brought
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  Speaker 2: to court with you know, the Duke of Milan, their father,
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  Speaker 2: who by the way, also an arsehole, and they basically
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  Speaker 2: get entrusted into the care of his mother, who is
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  Speaker 2: going to sort of raise them right effectively, Now, when
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  Speaker 2: she is five or six, after the Duke's first wife
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  Speaker 2: dies and he remarries his second wife, adopts all of
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  Speaker 2: the children, which then further legitimizes them.
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  Speaker 3: You know, but Renaissance.
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  Speaker 2: Italy is just brimming with illegitimate children at this point.
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  Speaker 2: There's just so many of them. Like it was very
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  Speaker 2: like common and I'm not saying it was accepted per se,
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  Speaker 2: but it was accepted in certain circles, in certain noble circles.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, she's adopted by Bona of Savoy. So between
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  Speaker 2: her and her grandmother, she has this very political education.
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  Speaker 2: She's very astute, and she also sort of ventures into
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  Speaker 2: botany and apothecary, so this understanding of these sort of
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  Speaker 2: scientific elements, right, and she also learns to hunt, because
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  Speaker 2: like the Jagamalan loved hunting, and so she was often
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  Speaker 2: going here and there with them and as such learn
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  Speaker 2: to hunt. So, according to sources, Katerina Sforza was tall, slim,
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  Speaker 2: beautiful and just very well appreciated in the Milanese court.
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  Speaker 2: And by the time she's fourteen, they're like, she is ready,
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  Speaker 2: let's get her wed. Remember what I said earlier about
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  Speaker 2: you know, using your children's tools for political alliances. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: So she's fourteen, and who do they think is the
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  Speaker 2: best match for her? Well that nope, that's not how
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you say that. I'm keeping that in because that's funny.
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  Speaker 2: That's what I sound like when I mess up names.
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  Speaker 2: Girolamo Riario, I can't roll the R today, it's not happening.
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  Speaker 2: Girolamo Riario, so Riario as I shall call him, he
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  Speaker 2: was twenty nine and she was fourteen. Now I'm sorry,
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  Speaker 2: I don't care what fucking era you're in.
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  Speaker 3: That is shitty as fuck. That is disgusting.
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  Speaker 2: And Riaro he is the nephew of Pope Us the fifth,
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  Speaker 2: and he's the Pope's nephew, so clearly this is an
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  Speaker 2: advantageous match. Unfortunately, Riarro was an absolute dick, so he's
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  Speaker 2: known as being like cruel and cowardly and lusty is
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  Speaker 2: the term. So basically he was slipping his sword into
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  Speaker 2: everybody sheath right, he was out there doing it clearly.
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  Speaker 2: So they were married, and they end up having eight children.
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  Speaker 2: Not only six survive, but all together they have eight.
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  Speaker 2: And now, before somebody goes all I wish you couldn't
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  Speaker 2: have hated him that much, Listen, listen. She was expected
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  Speaker 2: to do this. She was supposed to bear his children.
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  Speaker 2: That's just how it worked back then. And it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: make it right, it doesn't make it good. It makes
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  Speaker 2: it absolutely shitty, and it's fucking awful that even today
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  Speaker 2: men think this is the way things should be. Sorry, no,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: get a grip, get a life. Just go into the
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: outside world and speak to actual humans. You might learn
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  Speaker 2: a thing or two. I'm just saying sorry.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: I've had a lot of trolls.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Recently, and clearly clearly I'm getting irritated by the consistent misogeny.
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  Speaker 3: In our society. But I think when they were.
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  Speaker 2: Like originally betrothed, when this was agreed upon, she was
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  Speaker 2: like ten or something. But by the time she's fourteen,
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  Speaker 2: she does need this marriage. She actually does need it
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  Speaker 2: because in fourteen seventy six, the Duke of Milan, her father,
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  Speaker 2: is assassinated. So she's a fourteen year old girl. She
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: needs safety and security and protection. How much you'll get
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  Speaker 2: from this, dude, I'm not sure, but she ends up having.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: To go there. So, in like a lot of weddings
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  Speaker 3: at the time.
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  Speaker 2: Especially between noble it has to happen by proxy because
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  Speaker 2: he just can't get to Milan, or he doesn't want
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to get to Milan, it's unclear, but they have to
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  Speaker 2: have the wedding by proxy, and then she has to
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  Speaker 2: hoof it over to Rome.
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  Speaker 3: Off she trots, and when.
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  Speaker 2: She gets there Riario he is not keen on her,
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  Speaker 2: you know, having an opinion or any sort of clout
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  Speaker 2: or anything like that, and so he straightway bans her
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  Speaker 2: from being involved in politics, which kind of sucks because
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: the people there they don't really like him, but.
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  Speaker 3: They actually do quite like her.
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  Speaker 2: And because he is so much of a dick and
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: she is less of a dick, her popularity continues to grow.
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  Speaker 2: And she's also connected to the two richest families in
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  Speaker 2: all of Italy, so the Pope's favorite nephew dies, and
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  Speaker 2: then Riario he ends up getting a job working for
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  Speaker 2: his uncle because nepotism in it, and he's like, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: he's the second favorite, but he ends up being gifted
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: for Ley, right, So Katerina becomes the Countess of Foley,
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  Speaker 2: and the whole plan of it is they're supposed to
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  Speaker 2: improve it because it's been vacant, and so Riario is
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: trying to like win the people over in this area
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  Speaker 2: by like rebuilding it, renovating, just trying to like abolish taxes,
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  Speaker 2: just to make him seem like, you know, I'm not
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: a regular mom. I'm a cool mom, you know what
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I mean. He's just like, hey, adore me. It doesn't
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: go that well for him, but sort of society really
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: starts to acknowledge and appreciate Katerina. So when Karina is
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: nineteen years old, she suffers from court and fever, which
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: is like this type of malaria, and this illness basically
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: affects her for the rest of her living time, what her.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: Life, the rest of her life.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And she fucking hated it. She hated the fact that
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: she was an invalid. And when she was going through it,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: she went through it alone because are we fucking surprised
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  Speaker 2: that Riario wasn't there? No, plus you know in first
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: about better that he wasn't there, because again he was
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: an arsehoul. And it gets to the point where things
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: are going pretty well up until the death of Pope
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Sextus and eighty four and Karina she is twenty one
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: years old and seven months pregnant. There is fucking chaos, right.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: There are mobs, places are being looted, like all of
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the homes or like most of the homes of the
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: pope's relatives are being fucking plundered, right, And it gets
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: to the point where she's just like, fuck this for
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: a game of soldiers. And she goes down to the
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: castle Sanangelo, right, and I cannot try that this enough,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: seven months pregnant, This is not an easy thing to
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: do at any point in your life. But she gets
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: on a fucking horse and heads all the way down.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: She crosses the Tiber, and she gets to the castle
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Saint Angelo. And she gets there and being someone who
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: was brought up by some very strong women who manage
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: to teach her not only you know, diplomacy and alchemy
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: and all that other fun stuff, they also taught her
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: you know, basic military knowledge. And again, remember she was
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: out hunting, she was out learning. So she convinces the
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: soldiers to fucking listen to her, a woman who is pregnant, okay,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and she manages to take control of them and.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Sort of keeps an eye on on the Vatican.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, yeah, they're they're home there. It had been
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: stripped and nearly destroyed, the whole shebang. And so the
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: cardinals they go to Riario and they you know, they
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: try and broke a rid deal and they you know,
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  Speaker 2: they're like, hey, we'll let you keep your you know,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: your lordship for Imola and Forley, and we'll give you
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a military post for the church and eight thousand buckets.
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  Speaker 3: And he's like, oh yeah, thanks, that's great. And Karina she's.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Like, hmm, not too keen on.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: This feels a bit, feels a bit dodgy.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: And so she she gathers more soldiers and she gets
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: ready to build up a bigger resistance until they agree
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: to have her keep an eye on them. However, because
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: we are you know, got paid off, it fucks up
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: her power, her bargaining chip here, and so she has
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: to give up, and she ends up surrendering the castle
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: back to the Cardinals, and that's like thirteen days she's
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: holding it, which still twenty one years old and pregnant like,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: and yeah, they end up moving back to Romagnia. They
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: just kind of vacate and he tries to increase his popularity.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: He's trying to do well.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately he's too busy raising taxes and being an absolute pumpkin.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: He ends up fucking things up so much that there
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: are several uprisings against him. Uh. It gets to the
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: point where Katerina decides to you know, take things into
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: her own hands and.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: Orders that six of the rebels should be be headed.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Now, I know you're trying to make a point near Karina,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: but it does feel a wee bit extreme to just
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: go decapitating people. I mean, I understand it's the Renaissance,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: but like, just you know, have some herbal tea, you know,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: have some lemon.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Cello, just you know, cokania.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Wee bit. But things really come to a head in
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: fourteen eighty eight, and that is when the Orsi brothers Kilriario.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: They are conspiring against the whole team here, and so
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: they come in, they kill him, and they take Karina's
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: they take Karina hostage, but not just her. They take her,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: her mother, two of her sisters are like half sisters,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: all of.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Her children, and.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: One of Riario's illegitimate children and takes them all hostage.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: But Karina being Karina, and this this may be apocryphal,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: but this is my favorite thing I've ever heard, ever see.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Before she managed to get captured, she got word out that.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: You know, shit was going down.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: It got to her uncle Milan, and basically to not
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: allow anyone to take the castle under any circumstances. Don't
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: fucking surrender. And so basically when the Orsie brothers try
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: and take control and try and get them to surrender,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, we're not going to do that, because
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: do you really want to have to face Karina's brother.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: The current Duke of Milan. Do you really want to
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: fuck with that? I don't think you want to fuck
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: with that?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: And so they're like, Okay, not this time, and so
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: they are demanding that she surrenders to them, and she
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: is basically telling them absolutely fucking not right. She's telling
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: them no, it's not going to happen. And they still
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: have her kids and they threaten to kill them, and
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: so the story goes that she lifted up her skirts,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: flashes her velvet at them, and tells them that she
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: has the instrument to create more Go ahead, Like what
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: fucking game of Russian Roulette is this woman playing? But
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: she's like, yep, go ahead, I can make more kids, motherfuckers?
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Was this bravery? Was this saving face?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Was this just you know, just foolhardy, just knuckleheadedness?
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Was it? Whom's to say? Who's to say?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So? The Orsie brothers, they are so fucking shocked at
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: this that they just decide, no, this isn't worth it,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: and they don't harm her children, they don't do anything.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: They just they just get the heck at a dodge.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: But she's not one to forgive and forget like at all,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: not even like a little bit.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: She arrests and executes the Orsies and their families, with
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: the help of her uncle, of course.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: But not just that.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: She ends up becoming the ruling regent for her son,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: who is like the heir of four leady in Isoma, right.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: And so she gets there.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: She lowered taxes, she takes control of military training, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: she just starts building alliances and she is really taken
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: to this, she's sorting out marriage negotiations, she's given gifts
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: and building alliances. And throughout this as well, she does
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: have her little pastime, because everybody's got to have a hobby,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: and hers happens.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: To be.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: You know, alchemy and other such fun medicinal stuff. So
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: she has this manuscript that she writes throughout her life
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: called Experimenting, and in it there are like four hundred
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and fifty four recipes, so some of it is for
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: medicine and cosmetics, and then there's also the creation of
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: false gold like that is apparently in the book. But yeah,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: it's got just like she's making it like face masks
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: and stuff, and she's doing all this like medicinal shit too,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: like to the point where the plague erupts, she is
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: out there actually caring for the sick and the ill,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: which is really it's really weird because she's such like
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: an aggressive, like stern woman, but she's also out here
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: physically tending.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: To the ill.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: And so because she was out here and she was
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: entering like areas of infection and she was out doing
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: stuff that it really built her reputation as a leader
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: because you know, the common folk just saw her as
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: amazing because she was entering places most people wouldn't enter,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Like maybe she was you know, understanding.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Of how.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Had a concept I suppose of how disease spread and
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: things like that. Again, this is the time where people
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: didn't realize that washing your hands was good. I mean
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: in like Western Europe, you know what I mean, like Africa.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: People in Africa and India and in the Middle East
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: were washing their hands.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: Like all the time. But anyway, it's neither here nor there.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: So but yes, Katerina is ruling in the stead of
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: her son, and you know, things are going okay, but
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: she's allowed to have a personal life too, so she
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: ends up marrying.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Giacamo. Giacamo is.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: The younger brother of the castle, of her castle, and
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: he's twenty years old, so Giucamo. He is well a
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: bit of an urse too. So things are going okay,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: and things are going well, and she apparently really cares
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: about him. But he becomes tyrannical as his power grows,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: like she was besotted, and it got to the point
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: where she is doing everything he says. She is agreeing
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: with all of his demands and whims and he is
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: getting so power hungry and so tyrannical that like he
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: ends up slapping Ottaviano, who is, you know, the ruler,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: like he's he's she is really ruling in his stead.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: She's the regent, right, he is the heir to all
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: of this. He is the big dog and he smacks him.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: And so because it's generally believed that he was trying
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to like usurp you know, Otiovano's like power and his titles,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: and they were gen only worried that Karina was so
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: besotted with this man that she was going to strip
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: like her children of their titles, of everything that was
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: owed to them, and she would just give it all
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: to him. And it gets to the point where you know,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: enough is enough, and he is such a shit bag
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: that he ends up just like her first husband, assassinated
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: by conspirators who may or may not have included members
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: of Katerina's own family. So she is mad, she is
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: pissed off, and like she did before, because Italian custom
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: of the time, if someone you know kills your family,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: you get to do bad things to them and their family.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Like that's just a weird tip for tap thing they
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: had going on.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Which doesn't make sense.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: So what she does is she finds out who some
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of the conspirators were. Obviously she finds them, she finds
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: their families, and she has them tortured and executed. See
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: these assassins, right, they were hired by her children. But
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: as far as she is concerned, it's these assassins which
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: are the ones that need to be punished. So she
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: punishes them and their wives and their mistresses and their children.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Like about twenty children, including infants, were tortured and murdered.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: So by fourteen ninety six, which is a year after
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: husband number two has been dealt with, she meets Giovanni
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: di pier Francesco de Medici, which is a long name,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: and so her children and her uncle approve this marriage
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: and they get married the following year, and then a
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: year after that, husband.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Number three dies.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: This one of natural causes.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Or so, or so we have been informed.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: So in the fourteen nineties, Venice and Florence they.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Are not getting on.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And because four Ley is in between the two, she
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: was worried that he was going to be used as
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: like a passage, so like from one enemy territory to
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the next. And yeah, unsurprisingly that was the case, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: so she ends up building up the militia. She's training them,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: and during this this is when Giovanni he contracts pneumonia
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: and he ends up bedridden. There's like he's not going
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: to make it, and she ends up staying with him
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: until he passes away, like she's buying his bedside. But
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: even though you know she's dealing with that clearly not
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: feeling the best, she ends up like having to protect
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Foley from Venetians, and after several attempts of them trying
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: to like just trundle through her, she forces them to
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: retreat and so she ends up being known as Latigra
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: the Tigger. And at this point, you know, the people
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: are still relatively supportive of her. See every now and
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: again people would show up just to try and keep
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: an eye on Karina because they didn't trust women rulers
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: because see Forley and Imola, they are both I mean
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: they're small, but they're both strategically placed, so geographically it's
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: a very good space to have power over. Unfortunately, even
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: though Karina was hoping to keep it neutral for while,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: that wasn't going to happen.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: And like I think I mentioned this in the Lucrezia
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Borgia episode, actually is that the.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Duchy of Milan and the Kingdom of Naples. They start
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: getting at it, and of course you have Rodrigo Borgia
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: who's now the pope, so he's Paul Alexander, and he
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: happens to be the godfather to one of her children.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: So you'd think things were good, gentle listener, things are
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: not good because this whole thing, it's basically France and
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Spain at war inside Italy.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: And yeah, well here's the thing.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Was she trying to be neutral or was she playing
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: both sides? Because you know, double agents tend to get
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: caught and I don't know if you know this, but.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Tends to happen.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: All the while she is, you know, strengthening her foothold,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: she's building up her military, she is, she's trying to
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: be prepared. Because see the pope he ends up allying
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: with the French king in order to claim Sforza's region
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: like so Amola and Forley, because he wants it and
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: he wants to give it to Chesiree. We know Chesiret,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: not says are it's Chesiret, And so he is proclaiming
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: that Katerina's rule of the land or even her son
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: told the land is illegal because that land belongs to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the church. It doesn't belong to you because remember it
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: was gifted by her first husband's uncle who was the
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: pope at the time. And you know, she's she's thinking, okay,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: well that's.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: That's one way to put it. Another way to put
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: it is here is my army. Shut the fuck up.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: So they are stockpiling food, they are gaining ammunition. They
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: are like, she's training militia. She's getting ready, right, and
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: she is getting ready for you know, the onslot that's
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: going to happen. And she asks for help from Florence,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: and Florence gets threatened by the pope and they're like, yeah,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: we can't help you. So when Cesare shows up with
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: his army, the citizens let him in. They're like, yeah, coo, man,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: do what you gotta do because they don't want to
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: fight this because there's been a papal bull like they
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: don't want to go against it. So he ends up
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: having to like physically attack the fortress, like they have
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to bombard it because the citizens have given up, but
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: her fortress is still there, so they still have to
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: get in there.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: So it gets to the.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Point where they are just attacking it day and night.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So she manages to get her kids out. She sends
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: her kids to Florence. Actually she gets them away, and
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: so she supposedly in this impenetrable fortress, and so they're
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: trying to get her to like agree to a piece,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: and she's just fly out refusing, and they are just
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: just military bombardments one after the other. Just it gets
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: to the point where Chesarey offers ten thousand ducats like
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: dead or alive like m and over the course of
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: the siege, like he tries, he's trying to like get her,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: but it's just not happening, and then she even tries
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: to capture him when he comes to the fortress to
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: talk to her, but that doesn't work out. And this
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: spreads like wildfire like all through Italy, to the point
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: that machia Velli ends up writing about it, the machia Velly,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: and I think she ends up being like the only
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: like or one of the only women that he ends
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: up writing about ever. But yeah, it gets to the
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: point where Chesirey realizes he ain't getting in and so
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: he's there.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: You know, they're attack on the.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Walls days nights, and on the twelfth of January fifteen hundred.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: They break through, they storm the fortress and it is
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: a very quick battle, but it is a very bloody battle,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and it gets to the point where Katerina is physically
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: fighting these soldiers herself sword in hand like and once
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: she gets taken prisoner, she automatically just surrenders herself to
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: the Ballet of Dijon because she knows that if she's
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: a prisoner of the French, like she's safer because the
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: French don't allow female prisoners of war. However, Chesurey manages
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: to get custody of Katerina from from the French, saying
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: that he isn't going to treat her like a prisoner,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and he's obviously going to treat her like a guest
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: because she's a lady and he is a gentleman.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: Ah yes, so hmm.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: They end up taking her back to Rome and she's
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: held in the Belvedere Palace and she tries to escape,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: but she gets like caught very quickly, probably because she's
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: very noticeable and people know who she is, and as
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: she's imprisoned, like they have to explain why, like why
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: is this woman imprisoned by the pope and the Pope
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Son's forces right, and so like, oh, she she tried
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: to poison the pope with poison letters. First of all,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: that feels like a metaphor, although there was like word
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: sort of swirling around that Karina did try and poison
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: the Pope, especially considering she had like quite a good
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: knowledge of sort of care mystery. Really, but I do
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: love like the week inspiracy. He's like, one is it
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: was poison letters, it was a powder he inhaled, or
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: my favorite one is a cloth dept and bubonic plague,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: because that's just something somebody carries around with them, isn't it.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: After a year, Karina is finally released, but only after
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: she renounces her fifdom right and she's to sign over
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: everything to Chesie Borgia, and so she is finally allowed
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: to be free, and so she ends up retiring to
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Florence in one of the houses owned by her third husband,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Giovanna de Medici, and she does she does try to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: get control of her lands again after Poup Alexander dies
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: and Chesiree Borgia, who loses all the shit because once
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Daddy Borgia is out the window, Cheswi is
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: just fucked. And so she comes back into four lean
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and she's trying to win back.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: The people, and they're like, yeah, no, you had us
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: bombarded for so.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Long that we just we're just not feeling it right
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: now as a group. And so because she'd mess things
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: up so badly for them by being so stubborn, like,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: the people just weren't willing to accept it.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: So she ends up finally giving up, and she.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Decides to focus on you know, her children, her grandchildren,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: you know, her alchemic pursuits, and just focus on her
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: and you know, just living her best life, like she
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: was besotted. And it got to the point where she
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: is doing everything he says. She is agreeing with all
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: of his demands and whims, and he is getting so
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: power hungry and so tyrannical that like he ends up
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: slapping Ottaviano, who is, you know, the ruler, like he's
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: he's she is really ruling in his stead.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: She's the regent, right, he is the heir to all
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: of this. He is the big dog, and he smacks him.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: And so because it's generally believed that he was trying
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: to like usurp you know, Otiovano's like power and his titles,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: and they were genuinely worried that Karina was so besotted
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: with this man that she was going to strip like
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: her children, of their titles, of everything that was owed
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: to them, and she would just give it all to him.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: And it gets to the point where you know, enough
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: is enough, because while she was in prison or imprisoned,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I should say, she had sent Giovanni away, you know,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: for his safety. So Giovanni di Medici, he was taken
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: in by her brother in law Lorenzo, and she wanted
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: him back. She wanted custody of him, and there was
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: like an ongoing battle for it. And you know, normally
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: if someone was in prison, if there were a criminal,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: then they would lose custody. That was just it. But
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the judge, you know, realized, like you were a prisoner
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: of war, which is not the same thing. And so
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: she gets Giovanni returned to her, and she also gets
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: his inherented so that is all safe, that's secure. She
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: does have to pay back loans to the Medici family
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: because they had to sort out a bunch of stuff
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: with her well she was in prison. But she gets
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: him back and so she dedicates a lot of her
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: time to him, like he's her favorite. He's the most
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: like her nature, and yeah, she gets she gets him back.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: So she's Florence. She's working on the glee experimente, she's
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: working on her recipes, and then she starts getting unwell.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: So she has pneumonia in fifteen oh nine, and it's
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: like really affecting her, and it looks like she's recovering,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: but then and then it relapses. Like it's probably because
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: she had like liver issues and peratonitis and pleurisy, like
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: so many things were going on in her, and she
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: gets pneumonia again. She contracts it, and then the twenty
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: eighth of May fifteen oh nine, the Tiger of Forley
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Caturinus Forza passes away at forty six years old. She's
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: entombed in the chapel of Limarrat and Florence by a
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: convent of nuns, and like she had like a cell there,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: a cell with a room so that when she needed
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: like spiritual guidance or a retreat, I suppose, And there
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: she stays for the next three hundred years. But in
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties, you know, the nuns have to leave
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and the chapel gets converted into a prison. And then
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: at some point during this renovation, Katerina's bones disappear, so
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: we have no idea where she is now. Like she's gone.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Whether they were destroyed, whether somebody just took them, we
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: don't know, but they're just gone. But yes, so ends
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: the story of Katerinas, Forza, Renaissance Women and the Tiger
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: of Forley.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: If you liked my.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Retelling of the story, I feel free to rate and
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: review five stars, Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: Everything you like anywhere where you can review me, review me.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: If you go on Apple Podcasts and you get the
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: option to fill in the bit, it actually helps pushed
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: me up the charts.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: It be like, totally amazing. If you could do that,
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: thank you so much, I love you. That'd be great.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: I'm starting to lose my voice, can you tell? Don't forget.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: You can follow me on all of the social media's.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I'm on Twitter, I'm on TikTok, I'm on the the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: other ones Instagram, Facebook, and yeah, I can't get on threads.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: They don't have threads in Ireland, so that's not a
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: thing just yet. But I've also started uploading shorts to YouTube,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: so that's happening. All the links are in the description
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: down blue and yeah, recommendation time. So for watching, I'm
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: gonna recommend an all TV show. I'm going to tell
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: you to go watching A Warrior Princess because I'm not
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: promoting anything new. If it doesn't already exist, we're not
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: talking about it. So I want you to go watch
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: that because that is just fabulous. Lucy Lawless is just amazing,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: and also I thought it could work with this Warrior
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Women vite we've got going on today. For reading, I'm
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: going to suggest that we have done it the Christie Affair.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Am I going to tell you anything about it?
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Nope? Go read the book. I got a really nice
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: version with like a hardback cover in Art's Curtis.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I do lovely book though. And for listening, I am
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: going to recommend for the Love of History podcast, And
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: with that I shall bid you farewell, adios or where
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: is there my friends?
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: A bye bye