Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the wonderful Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (3/6)

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Talks to the wonderful Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (3/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None hamster with a blunt pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker quicker. Quicker.
• 0:41
  Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife for the Doctor
• 0:44
  Who Commentary Podcast. I'm Rob Valentine and he's Joe
• 0:48
  Ford. I did it, Joe.
• 0:50
  That was. I did it.
• 0:51
  Did you hear me? I did it perfect.
• 0:54
  No rehearsal necessary. You're there.
• 0:57
  You've made it happen again. Made it.
• 0:59
  Good, right? What are we here to watch?
• 1:03
  Let. Me recover.
• 1:05
  In your in your sort of relief. Right we are you've.
• 1:08
  Forgotten what we're here to do? We are here to watch part three,
• 1:12
  episode three, episode episode 3 of Doctor Who and the Abominable
• 1:18
  Snowmen, plural. This it seems like a an
• 1:22
  opportune moment to ask you about the length of this story,
• 1:28
  and you didn't know where that sentence is going to end.
• 1:31
  This day with you, one can never tell Joe.
• 1:34
  Just for now, just the story. I can't.
• 1:38
  Is there an occasion where six episodes is the appropriate
• 1:43
  length for a Doctor Who story? And is this that occasion?
• 1:49
  Yes, there is an occasion. I think this one's could be a
• 1:52
  four parter. It's like, look, Travers, Chris,
• 1:55
  I'll just shut up. Listen, look at the evidence,
• 1:58
  stop being obtuse. And look, if you just if you
• 2:04
  guys could just stop arguing, this could be a four parter, not
• 2:07
  a six parter, and we could all go home.
• 2:09
  But. I sometimes think.
• 2:11
  Then again, but then again, then again, if you watch the, if
• 2:15
  you're in the 60s watching this, I want to have five weeks in a
• 2:18
  row where I can watch this. I can return six times to this
• 2:23
  wonderful location. You know, we're caning this
• 2:25
  essentially in a way that it's not designed to be consumed.
• 2:30
  So there there is also an argument for well, you know,
• 2:35
  when you watch one episode a week, doesn't matter.
• 2:38
  You imagine anyone has ever done that though?
• 2:40
  Literally you know with the Doctor Who collection.
• 2:43
  Watched 125 minute episode a week.
• 2:46
  They'd be doing that marathon for a long time.
• 2:49
  Well, if you're going. To do it, you're going to be
• 2:50
  very, very strict about it. It would take you 60 years.
• 2:54
  You'd have to have you know that that's that's.
• 2:59
  There is an argument for bingeing, you know, Rob.
• 3:01
  That's seven. You'd have to have a seven-year
• 3:02
  break between survival and the TV movie and then.
• 3:07
  You. Know.
• 3:09
  And then another was it another seven years between that and no
• 3:13
  longer nine years between that? Yeah, then another 1005.
• 3:18
  Yeah. So, dear listener, if you're, if
• 3:20
  you're young, if you're a young fan and you want to do that,
• 3:24
  start now. What we're essentially saying is
• 3:28
  the only person that has genuinely done the Doctor Who
• 3:30
  experience is Ian Levine, who was watching in the 60s and is
• 3:34
  still watching now, but in real time.
• 3:38
  Yeah. We'll leave that there.
• 3:42
  That way madness lies. I also think as well though if
• 3:47
  you if they got Warfy Morris to speed up his delivery a little
• 3:51
  bit they could cut out an episode there.
• 3:54
  I think it is a little bit patient straining how long those
• 3:59
  speeches go on for. When Mark did this for to watch
• 4:03
  Who, obviously he's watching Doctor Who with a non Doctor Who
• 4:07
  fan brought up entirely on modern television and she found
• 4:11
  this story interminably slow because mostly because of those
• 4:16
  scenes where he's just talking very slowly.
• 4:22
  She she almost couldn't make it through.
• 4:25
  So I do. I do wonder if if some edits
• 4:27
  could have been made there. Yeah, I didn't.
• 4:29
  Yeah, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to say I quite like the
• 4:32
  fact it's this long because it's nice spending it in this
• 4:35
  environment, which isn't really kind of, you know, that's more
• 4:37
  to do with vibe and not to do with story stuff.
• 4:42
  So I just, I do think if you were going to tweak this story
• 4:46
  at all at all, if you wanted to kind of give it more incident or
• 4:50
  an extra twist is ripping off Nigel Neal a bit more and.
• 4:54
  Even more. Even more than actually having
• 4:58
  the real yetis sort stuff out. But you know.
• 5:03
  Oh, at the end you would, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:06
  Oh, we do see one at the end, don't we?
• 5:08
  Yes, you do. You get little kind of David
• 5:14
  Attenborough and and there's one over there, yeah.
• 5:17
  That would be neat, wouldn't it? Yeah, that would be neat if real
• 5:20
  life Yetis came in and saved the day.
• 5:23
  Well, there is actually, Attenborough has said publicly,
• 5:26
  you know, he kind of, you know, he's happy to conjecture that
• 5:30
  they might be out there. There's a, there's a actually,
• 5:32
  there is a podcast on BBC sounds called Yeti that came out last
• 5:36
  year before. I really don't like it very much
• 5:40
  because partly because it's, you know, it's stuff that for
• 5:42
  someone like me knows it already, but also it, for me,
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  it's about two rich, privately educated English people going
• 5:52
  out and seeking the Yeti when actually if you just stayed
• 5:55
  home, read the book, you'd kind of know it was a fool's errand.
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  But also it's I kind of feel it's like, oh God, it is it's
• 6:02
  white people, you know, kind of playing great, great white
• 6:06
  hunter. And that's kind of, you know,
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  whilst I love the kind of the Indiana Jones kind of, you know,
• 6:12
  world explorer, cryptozoological mystery type story.
• 6:16
  You also know the ending of that podcast.
• 6:19
  Yeah, but it's all. But it's also, but you know, I
• 6:21
  know where it comes from and it does come from there is a kind
• 6:24
  of a kind of a a colonial. I mean, really, because you
• 6:27
  know, once the whole once the whole world was explored, you
• 6:31
  know, there was there was no, you know, the idea of there
• 6:34
  being this kind of lost, lost land, lost cities and, you know,
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  lost creatures out there. Still bits of the bits of the
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  globe to for for people to go out and find this.
• 6:48
  There is a kind of an ugly side to it.
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  And the BBC sounds up to date bang up to modern podcast.
• 6:55
  Yeti does kind of have a an unwitting undercurrent as far as
• 7:00
  far as this listener is concerned of, you know, white
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  people kind of in the modern age still wanting to play Explorer,
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  you know, which I find. Suggesting that those Yeti is
• 7:10
  going to end up mounted on a wall.
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  Are you? No, no, I think the whole the.
• 7:18
  Argument We've conquered the Yeti you.
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  Know, I think if you want, if you want to find the actual
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  things like Yeti mingu and all that stuff, they're all umbrella
• 7:27
  terms for a whole load of different animals.
• 7:30
  But if you know, in zoological terms, if you want a real
• 7:32
  culprit, I think pointed personally, I think points at
• 7:36
  the the Tibetan blue bear, you know, Ditto Bigfoot, you know,
• 7:40
  bears walking, you know, bears, you know, their footprints, you
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  know, are big and that when when they're up on their hind legs,
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  they look darn impressive. But also, if you the whole idea
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  of looking for an actual biological Yeti is kind of
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  missing the point of folklore, which is the other big point is
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  that you know, it's yetis do exist, but they exist in the
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  imagination and they exist in kind of the tradition, not in
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  real life. It's an enticing idea.
• 8:09
  Oh, it is. It is.
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  I mean, you know, it's that you're wanting to find, you
• 8:13
  know, again, it's, it's the desire to, to find unexplored
• 8:17
  parts of the world for people who are a bit more fanciful than
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  actual proper, serious biologists, zoologists and
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  scientists. I do wonder if it's like the
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  Christmas present effect though, You know, like, oh great, what's
• 8:29
  under the tree? How exciting.
• 8:31
  And then you open it. Oh, how disappointing.
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  But looking the the speculation is the excitement and the
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  discovery would actually be very mundane.
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  And that's kind of my problem with this podcast series on BBC
• 8:44
  Sounds Yeti, is that you realise this, this guy, this guy's never
• 8:50
  going to be satisfied unless he's found the, the, the 9 foot
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  tall shaggy thing from pop culture.
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  He's, you know, until then, he's forever going to be, you know,
• 9:01
  he'll be disappointed. In That could be a long podcast,
• 9:03
  you know. Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's
• 9:06
  a, it's a, it's a quixotic. Why does it, why does it say
• 9:09
  quixotic? Not Kotick Anyway, it's a, it's
• 9:13
  a, it's a quixotic thing to want to do, you know, And I, I, I'm a
• 9:16
  bit uncomfortable by it because there are kinds of imperial
• 9:20
  undertones to, in, in, you know, to wanting to, for people, you
• 9:24
  know, from good old Blighty to want to do it.
• 9:29
  It's a bit, it's a, it's a romantic need that's kind of,
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  you know, comes from the Am I fiction?
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  Too cynical to suggest that we have spread like a virus across
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  this planet to a point where if these things were going to be
• 9:45
  discovered, they would have been by now.
• 9:47
  Well. You know, there are, there are
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  always, you know, you know, unless we've killed, we've
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  killed. The more species still discover,
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  I'm sure a lot of the times, you know, when you know, when we
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  talk about discovering stuff, really it's, you know, like
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  match, repeat. It's new.
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  It's new to white people. Doesn't mean we've discovered
• 10:03
  something. You know, yeah, yeah.
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  But. But to be honest.
• 10:06
  We are ignorant. Yes, when, when, when, when a
• 10:09
  lot of us do talk about going out, discovering things.
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  You know what we what we really mean is it's new to white people
• 10:15
  and yeah, so. Yeah.
• 10:17
  So Even so, even up to the present day, you know, the whole
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  kind of the desire to find the Abominable snowman is there when
• 10:27
  actually, you know, if as soon as you kind of glom onto the
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  fact that Yeti is an umbrella term for a whole bunch of
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  different things, you know, from, you know, bears, wolves,
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  whatever. And it also, it's more of a
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  folklore. It's got a spiritual dimension
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  to it rather than an actual zoological 1.
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  Yeah. Then, then, then you kind of you
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  realize that. Oh, yeah.
• 10:51
  They're never going to find it because the thing they want to,
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  the thing they want to find is the thing that Tintin meets.
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  It's the thing that Peter Cushing and the Ebola Stoneman
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  meets. It's, you know, it's, yeah, it's
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  it's a post imperial fantasy for white guys who no longer have an
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  empire. That's kind of, you know, that's
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  my sense. And I've watched too many
• 11:15
  doctors who's now for to not be a disappointment if they're
• 11:18
  found. And they're not robotic poems of
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  some great intelligence out in the ether.
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  That's. The thing I think I I love this
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  genre, but I also know where it comes from.
• 11:29
  And, you know, Indiana Jones, Yeah.
• 11:32
  James Bond They're not, they're not good guys, you know?
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  But you know, they have these wonderful, colourful, romantic
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  adventures that exoticize the rest of the world, you know?
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  Do you know, as a complete side note, because you mentioned
• 11:47
  Indiana Jones a couple of Times Now.
• 11:48
  Yeah. Love those movies.
• 11:50
  That is something that Doctor Who hasn't wholeheartedly LED
• 11:53
  into. Yeah, I think they could.
• 11:56
  No, no, but like really get that vibe of a Spielberg Indiana
• 12:01
  Jones movie. Oh yeah, but we have, Moffett
• 12:04
  did it a few times. I kind of think now.
• 12:05
  Like, you know, the Underhenge and the Pandorica opens and also
• 12:09
  when Professor Jericho, Yaz and Graham travel the world.
• 12:14
  Yeah, it's like, it's like bits and pieces, isn't it?
• 12:17
  Yeah, but. But that's because all these
• 12:19
  things, you know, this, this story we're watching now,
• 12:22
  Indiana Jones, they all come from, you know, from earlier
• 12:25
  stuff, the pulps, Robert E Howard's HP Lovecraft, does it
• 12:30
  even hit, you know, Arthur Conan Doyle.
• 12:33
  It all gets pretty Victorian and pretty imperial pretty quickly,
• 12:37
  you know, when you dig back at it, you know?
• 12:41
  That's why I love. I promise you we'll get onto a
• 12:44
  bit of Abominable Snowman episode 3 in a minute.
• 12:46
  That's why I pretty much love every single Bernice Summerfield
• 12:50
  story in whatever form it's taking audio print.
• 12:54
  It's because every single one is essentially an Indiana Jones
• 12:58
  story, yes. Yes, yeah.
• 13:02
  Anyway, let's circle us back around to the Abominable
• 13:05
  Snowman. I like to think this was all
• 13:07
  kind of, you know, this is all the, this is all the stuff on
• 13:10
  which Doctor Who, the Ball Stone Man is set.
• 13:14
  Of course. Yes.
• 13:17
  Well, we're heading back into animation now, so prepare
• 13:20
  yourself. Who's counting as in you intro
• 13:23
  this? I'm counting as in yes.
• 13:26
  Yes, yes, you remember. Your stunning intro.
• 13:30
  I'm sorry, I really sound like I'm being sarky, don't I?
• 13:32
  I probably it. Was it was it was adequate?
• 13:35
  It works. It was the first one I've ever
• 13:37
  done that was actually OK. Ever since you and me and Mark
• 13:40
  got engaged, I'll become a right sarky git.
• 13:42
  I don't know. Well, look, if this is, if this
• 13:45
  is a glimpse into what our marriage is going to look like,
• 13:48
  then you know, I'm going to have to, yeah.
• 13:53
  I'll promise you you'll be a very satisfied man, right?
• 13:56
  I'll count as in. 50 you can cook.
• 14:03
  Oh boy, can I cook 321? Off we go.
• 14:11
  Oh yeah, right. Was that our first argument?
• 14:16
  Well, you know what? I'll give the sleeves, you know,
• 14:18
  right? Let's see.
• 14:21
  Doctor Who? Actually, in this hold, usually
• 14:25
  yes, row and then should we watch Doctor Who?
• 14:29
  Yes, Yeah, right. Makeup.
• 14:32
  Stick on Planet of the Daleks or something like that.
• 14:34
  Yeah, Yeah, it's the great Unifier.
• 14:35
  Doctor Who. You know, I'm convinced.
• 14:39
  Also, the Abominable Stone Man is a very if you're going to rip
• 14:43
  off or homage the Abominable Snowman, calling your thing the
• 14:49
  Ebola snowman is the way to go. You know, it's, it's a good,
• 14:52
  it's a, it's a perfect title. What but having an army of them
• 14:57
  rather than just a singular 1? Yeah, yeah.
• 15:00
  It, it tells you where the story came from.
• 15:02
  It tells you what you're getting, but also tells you
• 15:04
  getting lots of them. So obviously the, the, the, the
• 15:09
  icy howl of the wind throughout. This is so good.
• 15:14
  Yeah, I think you're right. I think the the the sound design
• 15:16
  throughout is is superb. I do I I do miss music though.
• 15:22
  Is it none at all in this I, I, I meant to listen out and I
• 15:25
  forgot, so I was clearly engaged.
• 15:27
  But I think one thing, yeah, one thing I think just to to kind of
• 15:30
  heighten it in places would be just a little bit of, you know,
• 15:34
  a few more bells and gongs on the soundtrack and stuff like
• 15:37
  that. I suppose they're trying the,
• 15:39
  the chanting and all that. They're trying to, to sort of
• 15:41
  create the atmosphere that way. When you think of the score in
• 15:44
  two with the sidemen and in the Ice Warriors on either side of
• 15:48
  this and they're out as well. I mean they they alone transport
• 15:52
  you somewhere else. Yeah.
• 15:54
  And right here we've got, we've got a base under siege with a
• 15:56
  difficult commander in Grisson. That's so we are.
• 16:02
  This is pure base under siege territory we're in now.
• 16:11
  Trying to put the subtitles on that and failed miserably.
• 16:13
  Sorry. That's all right.
• 16:15
  We're OK. We've seen it.
• 16:17
  Yeah. But here we have learned here
• 16:20
  that, yeah, so the real Yeti or harmless and they've got, which
• 16:23
  ties them in with Nigel Neil's Yeti, who are kind of higher
• 16:27
  beings than us. There's a completely irrelevant
• 16:33
  trivia point that I'm going to drop here, and that is if you
• 16:36
  notice any difference between the robes that the monks are
• 16:40
  wearing in this compared to the live action episode, it is
• 16:43
  because they were entirely based on Choji's costume in Planet of
• 16:47
  the Spiders, which is apparently more factually accurate to what
• 16:51
  they would be wearing. OK, Yeah, cool.
• 16:56
  Although that is also a white actor, yes, so.
• 17:02
  We've just had a buy regeneration on TVI say just you
• 17:06
  know, what is we're into February now of 2024, but we
• 17:11
  thought we've just sort of buy regeneration.
• 17:12
  But you just reminded me we've had some back in classic
• 17:16
  regenerations were weird a lot of the time.
• 17:19
  So you know. Anyway, all I can remember about
• 17:22
  that buy regeneration is shoot to get while we're in his pants.
• 17:26
  This is this is true, Yes, Yeah. It was memorable.
• 17:31
  So what's occurring here? We've got Chris on and Travers.
• 17:34
  Are they still? There no there are Todds now.
• 17:36
  Chris On and Travis now are Todds with each other.
• 17:42
  I'll see. That was nice.
• 17:43
  So you can you can do that on in animation.
• 17:46
  Did you notice outside the door of the set there you could see
• 17:50
  the Himalayas? Yes, exactly.
• 17:52
  Yeah, yeah. And I'm all for that kind of
• 17:55
  stuff because it's just, you know, bit of extra magic.
• 18:02
  Another reason I think, you know, we've talked before about
• 18:03
  me and Doctor direction and I realized that I was thinking
• 18:06
  about this as well. A lot of my Doctor Who
• 18:09
  consumption as a kid was the target.
• 18:11
  Books. OK, you were the director.
• 18:14
  Yeah, yeah or yeah, yeah. Or rather, you know, rest in
• 18:17
  your brain differently. So yeah.
• 18:20
  So actually I did, I did a lot of not watching Doctor Who and
• 18:23
  I, I, and I'm I'm trying to remember now what my primary
• 18:28
  form of Doctor Who consumption was.
• 18:31
  And I think as a kid, the target books far outweighed.
• 18:36
  My friend Stephen, that was exactly his way in as well and
• 18:40
  he's just says so much of classic Doctor Who failed to
• 18:44
  live up to the pictures that he painted in his head with those
• 18:48
  Target books. Although I have to say this
• 18:51
  because I have read this this month in sort of preparation for
• 18:54
  this. It is a script page Terrance
• 18:58
  Dick's book but with such brevity of prose.
• 19:03
  Like he conjures up atmosphere like 3 lines in a paragraph just
• 19:08
  effortlessly do. They change.
• 19:10
  Does he change any of the names? Yes, yeah, that was in the
• 19:14
  documentary as well. Barry Letts took a pass of it
• 19:17
  over it, and basically quite a few of the names have changed to
• 19:22
  be a bit more factually accurate.
• 19:24
  Right. Gotcha.
• 19:25
  Yeah. I'm just like, it's Tom Lee's
• 19:33
  bald in the animation. Oh, has he got a scar?
• 19:40
  That he looks. Yeah, he's not, not in a good
• 19:42
  way. And one that appears here, the
• 19:45
  doctor's disappointment that Crystal isn't asking for help
• 19:48
  and just doesn't trust him is fun.
• 19:51
  Oh, yeah, they. Yeah, the balls do remind me of
• 19:54
  cyber mats in a way, because they're kind of, you know,
• 19:59
  they're the little. The little silver critter type
• 20:02
  thing with a that has some kind of agency that's tied to the
• 20:06
  humanoid monster who is the main menace.
• 20:10
  I actually think they're more effective as well because the
• 20:13
  cybermats have fuzzy felt teeth and big googly eyes.
• 20:17
  I've. Never really understood the
• 20:18
  cybermats. No, I've.
• 20:20
  Never really got them as a concept.
• 20:21
  The other ones I really like are the ones that everyone moans
• 20:25
  about, and that's those sort of silver fish ones in Revenge of
• 20:29
  the Cybermen. OK, I'll twilight the design of
• 20:31
  those ones, and especially because they've taken away the
• 20:35
  boogly eyes and the fuzzy, fuzzy felt teeth, you know?
• 20:38
  I just don't understand why they exist conceptually, you know,
• 20:41
  it's just, I don't get why the cyber members have cyber maps.
• 20:47
  And yeah, anyway. Lots of chatter here as the
• 20:49
  monks try to decide what on earth they think of this robotic
• 20:53
  Abominable snowman. Probably not in their world
• 20:58
  view. You know, yesterday.
• 21:00
  Yes, yeah, no, well, no, they oh, yeah.
• 21:02
  And that's true. That's true, yes, Yeah.
• 21:06
  And that's that's part of the fun of Doctor Who.
• 21:08
  And when it kind of you know it, the characters end up, you know,
• 21:13
  you know, in a in a genre mash story, you know, you've got so
• 21:17
  you've got people from one culture experiencing something
• 21:20
  completely other. I I'm going to take a punt
• 21:24
  though, and suggest that when that's done for comedy, it's
• 21:29
  more entertaining to watch than when it's done seriously.
• 21:32
  I'm thinking of the time warrior when you have Lynx and iron
• 21:35
  grown come together and it's just hilarious the culture clash
• 21:39
  there. And he's trying to give them
• 21:41
  preach loading guns and stuff to fight their wars back in the
• 21:44
  medieval time. Whereas this is it's a a bit
• 21:47
  worthy, isn't it? Yeah, Well, I, I think the, the
• 21:51
  way that the Tibetan characters are treated isn't a very, you
• 21:55
  know, you know, isn't a very kind of worthy way because that,
• 22:02
  you know, that's, that's not unique to this.
• 22:04
  If you watch the Nigel Neal film, if you watch, you know,
• 22:08
  even when Tintin goes to Tibet, you know, the llamas are kind of
• 22:13
  these kind of dignified, wise, spiritually heightened figures,
• 22:22
  you know, So there's kind of a definite stereotype that they
• 22:27
  are kind of living up to, you know?
• 22:29
  A stereotype, but a respectful one I think.
• 22:32
  And I think that's why I I don't see any of this as being
• 22:35
  problematic despite the production things is because
• 22:38
  they are trying to be respectful.
• 22:39
  Yeah, but there are different kinds of you can't.
• 22:42
  There are certain stereotypes which are like with American
• 22:44
  Indians, you've got the the whole kind of the benign one in
• 22:49
  the. It's not in, in that it's not
• 22:50
  like a, you know, Indians, you know who, you know, murderous
• 22:54
  scalpers, but you know, the magic Indian, you know the kind
• 22:57
  of the, the, you know, the, the American Indian who's got
• 22:59
  mystical knowledge. It's not the kind of stereotype.
• 23:02
  It's a, it's a, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a nicer
• 23:05
  one, but it's, you know, these are stereotypes nonetheless.
• 23:08
  Well then I'm going to ask you, because we did the two stories
• 23:11
  in succession. What's more of an issue, the
• 23:14
  stereotyped llamas in The Abominable Snowman or the
• 23:17
  stereotyped Westerners? See, I was thinking about this
• 23:25
  only today and not I didn't think didn't know you would ask.
• 23:30
  But since you have, it's a funny thing if I was, you know, for me
• 23:36
  personally, just I find it impossible getting past the the
• 23:41
  American accents and the gunfighters.
• 23:45
  But interestingly, I have far less of a problem with these
• 23:48
  equally unconvincing Tibetans. Except, yeah, the unconvincing
• 23:56
  Americans. Great.
• 23:57
  More because. Those accents were terrible.
• 24:01
  Those accents are those accents are terrible and that.
• 24:05
  Well, I think it's because that takes that takes you out of the
• 24:08
  story. You're very aware then that this
• 24:10
  is a production, and that's a massive failing, whereas here it
• 24:15
  is more visually sort of problematic.
• 24:17
  Yeah, but. Also, but is is the fact that
• 24:19
  this is less of a problem, is the fact that this is less of a
• 24:22
  problem to me to do with my ignorance?
• 24:25
  And should I, should I find it more of a problem?
• 24:28
  Mine, I think I probably should find it more of a problem.
• 24:30
  But I, I find the Pirates of Penzance with, you know,
• 24:34
  carrying, carrying with their six shooters in the, in the
• 24:38
  gunfighters that's, I find I find that hard, really just
• 24:41
  tough to get by. Something, something switches
• 24:44
  off in my brain to allow me to enjoy things.
• 24:47
  I saw one of my dinosaurs is missing recently and I laughed.
• 24:52
  I laughed all the way through it.
• 24:53
  I was. Going to mention one of our
• 24:55
  dinosaurs is missing on this talk because that was one of my
• 24:59
  first introductions to the Yeti. Because if you recall, at the
• 25:03
  beginning of the film, when Derek Nimmo was escaping from
• 25:06
  China on a on a, on a, on a kite with a seat, vultures eat the
• 25:14
  kite and he falls. He lands in Tibet and who
• 25:18
  carries him and drops him off at the border?
• 25:20
  It's true. Yeah, I don't think you're a
• 25:24
  vulnerable at all. Yeah.
• 25:26
  So, yeah, that and that was my first introduction to the Etsy
• 25:29
  in a that's from 1970. And it is the, you know, I
• 25:34
  bought it on DVD not too long ago because I just, I want to
• 25:38
  see this film again. I have seen this was a kid on
• 25:40
  Betamax and my God, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's got serious
• 25:46
  issues, Buster. Laughed.
• 25:48
  You know Jon Pertwee when that bloody thing comes past his
• 25:51
  window and he's it was hilarious.
• 25:53
  Oh, yeah. I mean, there are, there are
• 25:54
  lots of great things in it, but my God, no, no, no, no, no.
• 25:59
  I mean, you compare that to. This Disney Plus.
• 26:01
  And this suddenly is doing less things wrong.
• 26:04
  Yeah, yes, yes, yeah. That like, like I say, there
• 26:08
  are, you know, there are ways of getting things wrong, other ways
• 26:12
  of getting things wrong. And I think, you know, if you're
• 26:14
  going to, if this is actually, I do Love Actually the the
• 26:18
  controlling the Yeti with these little figures.
• 26:21
  Well, I was going to say, you mentioned the 7th doctor
• 26:23
  earlier, and that's so fenric, isn't it?
• 26:26
  The pawns, the chess. Match there is a so I The funny
• 26:31
  thing is, I mean I love the 7th doctor era, but a bit so when re
• 26:35
  watching those when I should be watching Doctor Who I haven't
• 26:37
  seen before. But but the 7th doctor is so
• 26:42
  he's so a conscious call back to the second doctor.
• 26:45
  You know where except you know, you know, one one has a recorder
• 26:48
  1 plays the spoons, but you know it's it's he's such a call back.
• 26:52
  He's such a call back to this. It's also it, it's the fact that
• 26:57
  actually both of those doctors do quite troubling things, but
• 27:02
  they're really likeable and fun to watch, so you almost give
• 27:06
  them a pass. I would I'd lump in Matt Smith's
• 27:08
  11th Doctor as well with the other two.
• 27:13
  Oh yeah, Well, Matt Smith, he was a, he was a Trouton fan and
• 27:17
  he, I think he's, he watched a couple of Troutons and thought,
• 27:20
  yeah, that's how I'm doing it. In fact, a couple of times in
• 27:23
  series five I can see him absolutely channelling Trout and
• 27:29
  it it is weird sort of movements, it's body language.
• 27:34
  I do like, I do love that line. They came to get their ball
• 27:37
  back. That's so good.
• 27:41
  There are also a couple of really playful lines.
• 27:43
  There's one later where he goes bugger, rocket it to Jamie.
• 27:46
  Oh yeah, I've got. That one down, yes, yeah, it's
• 27:48
  so. Good.
• 27:51
  Here's a question I've got though.
• 27:53
  Is the idea of robot Yeti less exciting than if they were real?
• 27:59
  It's more fun to believe that Yeti are a reality and could be
• 28:01
  out there. Suppose.
• 28:03
  What do you think? I I love that moment when it's
• 28:09
  revealed so much because it turns the story on a dime.
• 28:15
  I think it's great that they're. Robots.
• 28:16
  I think that's what makes this Doctor Who.
• 28:18
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:19
  Not fair. Enough.
• 28:19
  Fair enough. And also they have the cake and
• 28:21
  eat it because it turns out Yeti also are there.
• 28:24
  Yeah. Yeah, what's interesting is what
• 28:27
  they do with them later is that they're not really got.
• 28:31
  There's a conscious scene where they transform from being very
• 28:36
  cute to suddenly having terrifying glowing eyes and
• 28:40
  great big hideous claws. And you know, they turn them
• 28:43
  into into horror movie figures in their first scene in the Web
• 28:49
  of Fear. And really?
• 28:53
  Push away from a lot of what this is doing and it's just out
• 28:56
  and out action and horror. Yeah, I mean I.
• 28:59
  Think the Yeti, are they? They're far more frightening in
• 29:04
  the web of fear, but in this one, yeah.
• 29:10
  And and if people. If people have a problem with
• 29:12
  the Yeti in this one, I get it, I really do.
• 29:14
  But I just, I just don't. I just think it's a romp.
• 29:17
  I think it's, yeah, it's I'm here for it.
• 29:20
  I could point out lots. Of Doctor Who monsters where you
• 29:23
  know, they look absurd and they still scare the life out.
• 29:26
  I mean their mummies in periods of Mars look a bit weird.
• 29:31
  God, what else? Which is another Hammer film of.
• 29:33
  Course, yeah, but there's I. Think there's lots of to beat
• 29:36
  that one? The troll doll.
• 29:38
  In Terror the Autumns is absurd but absolutely chilling.
• 29:43
  Yes. Yeah.
• 29:45
  This is such a this. Is the only thing you could say
• 29:47
  on a Doctor Who podcast about an animation?
• 29:49
  Do you see the rendering on that ball?
• 29:51
  It looks like it looked 3D. It looked great.
• 29:56
  A1. Note I do have I.
• 29:57
  Don't think I'm not sure it comes I this is a nurse I made
• 30:00
  watching the loose cannon version.
• 30:01
  But the doctor's delight that Crystal finally trusts him is
• 30:05
  lovely because he just has his little moment because because he
• 30:08
  spent this is episode 3. We're getting for halfway
• 30:11
  through this thing now and Crystal finally.
• 30:15
  You say that I. Still think that's it's earlier
• 30:17
  than we normally get in season 5.
• 30:20
  Glenn only relents right at the end.
• 30:25
  Hobson was it Robson. They've all got similar names.
• 30:28
  No Robson inferior from the deep or he he doesn't relent.
• 30:32
  It becomes the the absolute villain of the piece, and then
• 30:34
  he's good at the end. I think it's more interesting.
• 30:38
  That somebody will. Change their mind.
• 30:42
  Like that, you know, and then become an ally.
• 30:44
  Yeah, but in this? One you've because you've got
• 30:46
  hierarchical levels is that topology.
• 30:49
  Anyway, you got, you got, you got a hierarchy in the.
• 30:52
  In the. In the monastery, so the doctor
• 30:56
  succeeded in getting, you know, the the chief warrior on side,
• 31:00
  but he's still, you know, it's the higher ups who are being
• 31:04
  controlled. So he's still he's got further
• 31:06
  up the the power structure, the pyramid, if you will, still to
• 31:10
  go. So that's kind of that makes
• 31:13
  this an interesting base is there isn't just like an overall
• 31:16
  leader barking orders. You know, Croissant is like the
• 31:19
  chief attack doc, but he's not actually in charge.
• 31:22
  But I do also think. That is the central issue, or my
• 31:25
  central issue is it? I think they think the politics
• 31:28
  of the monastery are a lot more interesting than they actually
• 31:32
  are. That's cool.
• 31:33
  Yeah. Yeah, I.
• 31:33
  Think it might be true. I think I in a weird way, I kind
• 31:36
  of think. One dynamic that this.
• 31:42
  Lacks is it would it might affect the cast too much, But
• 31:46
  Travers having Travers having an expedition because he's just one
• 31:50
  guy on his own. Travis gets backgrounded a lot
• 31:53
  at this point. He's quite important early on.
• 31:57
  But yeah, there might have been something to do else to do with
• 32:02
  to give, not to give Travis more to do, but to create more of a
• 32:06
  kind of an inside, inside, outside push pull in terms of
• 32:10
  power between some of the characters.
• 32:12
  I just wonder how. Many times you can have scenes
• 32:15
  of softly spoken people going, should we trust them?
• 32:18
  I don't know, should we trust them?
• 32:20
  How interesting is that? When I compare it to the other
• 32:23
  base on the sea stories of Season 5, like Fear from the
• 32:27
  Deep, you have the Harrises, which is an interesting dynamic.
• 32:31
  You know, sort of away from the base in Tomb of the Cybermen,
• 32:36
  you've got all those brilliant characters being picked off,
• 32:39
  basically cartoon characters, but very fun to watch.
• 32:42
  Whereas I've used the word again.
• 32:45
  This is all very worthy. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:50
  And I think that's. Part of the stereotype of, you
• 32:53
  know, the type, the type of monks who live in mystical monks
• 32:57
  with psychic powers who live in, you know, lamasteries in lost
• 33:04
  valleys in Tibet. This is how they all behave.
• 33:07
  It's, you know, in, in the Western imagination.
• 33:11
  But do they? Make them, you know, the most
• 33:13
  exciting characters in a Doctor Who story.
• 33:17
  No. Oddly, that you know, they're
• 33:19
  the they're the guys who they give you a bit of wisdom in
• 33:21
  these types of stories. Then you leave them behind in
• 33:23
  golf on your adventure. But because this is a base under
• 33:26
  siege story at the monastery, maybe maybe what it needed was
• 33:30
  you had to have Travers and give travellers like a site, a
• 33:34
  sidekick who's kind of like breeding avaricious and a crook.
• 33:38
  Because in the in in the bumble snowman, there's the the
• 33:44
  American leader of the expedition who's kind of at
• 33:46
  loggerheads a lot of the time with with Peter Cushing.
• 33:51
  He's based on a figure called Tom Slick, an American who were
• 33:55
  was looking for the Yeti in the 1950s.
• 33:58
  Let me just check the date. But the one story I haven't
• 34:02
  actually recounted is when they stole a finger from a water Yeti
• 34:08
  hand in the pool. They took one finger of it and
• 34:11
  replaced it with the bone of a human finger and they snuggled
• 34:14
  it out Nepal, but they smuggled it out.
• 34:16
  Jimmy Stewart, James Stewart, the American Film star was at
• 34:19
  the airport in India, I think. And so they, because the because
• 34:24
  I think, yeah, I think Tom Slick knew him or just managed to get
• 34:29
  him to smuggle out this Yeti finger in his wife's luggage
• 34:34
  with a lingerie. Yeah, Yeah.
• 34:36
  And then when they, yeah, they took it back and analyzed it and
• 34:40
  it was just, it's a, it's a human finger.
• 34:42
  But so it wasn't, it's not Yeti at all.
• 34:46
  But. But they couldn't.
• 34:48
  They couldn't tell anyone their results because they'd stolen
• 34:50
  it. The possibility that.
• 34:53
  It could have been, though. Well, exactly.
• 34:55
  And that's what. That's what the mystique of all
• 34:56
  this is kind of we're doing is the.
• 34:58
  Christmas present under the tree again, isn't it?
• 35:00
  Yeah, yeah. This could be oh.
• 35:02
  Look at this, I wonder how this looked on location.
• 35:06
  Something heading out now surrounded by yetis.
• 35:09
  I love all. This and this is what you want I
• 35:11
  mean. You want, You want the.
• 35:14
  Himalayas. You know you want big mountains
• 35:17
  well. That was another.
• 35:19
  Question I threw at somebody else the other day as well is
• 35:21
  like with a base under siege generally later on when they do
• 35:25
  this sort of thing, robots, death terror, the verboys,
• 35:27
  things like that, you just stay in the base.
• 35:29
  You know it is a base under siege.
• 35:32
  Whereas in season five, it's a base in a vast landscape,
• 35:36
  usually like this, like the Ice Warriors, you know, period from
• 35:40
  the deep. You've got the sea all around
• 35:41
  you, and you can get away from the base, you know?
• 35:46
  But the fact that they're isolated tends to be what makes
• 35:50
  it scary, yes. Yeah, but establish, establish
• 35:54
  the terrain, establish the world you're in in this.
• 35:57
  The locations really are it's the monastery.
• 36:00
  It's it's the mountains where the TARDIS is parked and it's
• 36:03
  The Cave, isn't it? So you've got outdoor mountains,
• 36:06
  indoor cave, indoor monastery. So those are your three places
• 36:10
  to go. So it's still, it's still very.
• 36:14
  Contained, but it's but part part of it's the opposite of
• 36:18
  hookah, you know, you know, being cozy, you know, you need
• 36:21
  it to be, you know, to be nice and cozy indoors.
• 36:24
  Do you need it to be inclement outdoors?
• 36:27
  So yeah. So part of the base under siege
• 36:30
  is you need, you need to establish the outside is
• 36:34
  inhospitable and threatening and inside is preferable, you know,
• 36:38
  but it's not what I love about this.
• 36:40
  It's the same thing I love about pyramids and Mars as well, is
• 36:43
  that you've got a threat that they just don't stop coming.
• 36:47
  No matter how vast that landscape is, they're going to
• 36:50
  keep coming. You're going to get tired, and
• 36:51
  they're going to catch up with you.
• 36:52
  You know, I like that a lot. Yeah.
• 36:55
  And the the. Control Sphere has gone back
• 36:58
  into the Yeti now. He's coming a lot.
• 37:00
  Oh. Victoria is obviously in the
• 37:02
  room. Screaming.
• 37:04
  Ahead of. I'm not sure of those, whoever
• 37:07
  did those ropes or that sort of so much of A trap there for him,
• 37:11
  was it? He just pushed it aside.
• 37:16
  I'll do like as well that they animated the Yeti sort of
• 37:19
  contemplating what he was going to do there, sort of looking
• 37:22
  around him. Yeah.
• 37:23
  Who shall I kill first? What am I going to fuck up
• 37:30
  first? OK, well I'm going to out three
• 37:32
  then by. Asking you one last.
• 37:36
  Question, and that is based on the scenes in general, is, is
• 37:40
  that a favorite sort of Doctor Who genre of yours?
• 37:45
  Do you think it's always done pretty well?
• 37:47
  Is it a favorite one of? Mine, it's a very, it's a very
• 37:50
  specific type of Doctor Who story.
• 37:54
  I'm not sure I've ever written one.
• 37:55
  And maybe I should, maybe I should, maybe I should pitch or
• 37:59
  maybe next time I'm asked to do something, make it based on the
• 38:01
  siege. Why haven't I?
• 38:03
  May I, I quite, I suppose I quite like going from place to
• 38:06
  place rather than, you know, going, going through the motion,
• 38:11
  going through what are now very familiar tropes.
• 38:16
  But you know, Aliens is a based on the siege story.
• 38:18
  I love aliens. So you know, you're right.
• 38:21
  Sorry to. Stroke your ego again.
• 38:22
  But you're terribly good at conjuring up a world, like you
• 38:25
  say, by visiting a lot of locations, you know, and
• 38:27
  creating a very sort of vivid setting.
• 38:30
  But it is a particular skill to create a world within a single
• 38:35
  location, isn't it? I actually paint the picture of
• 38:37
  the world. Yeah, I think.
• 38:39
  Yeah, I to to watch them. Yeah, if the base.
• 38:43
  Is if the base has got enough atmosphere to it.
• 38:46
  And I think atmosphere is key. It's really easy to forget
• 38:49
  atmosphere. But yeah, if the base is
• 38:51
  somewhere actually just like hanging out, like like this
• 38:55
  monastery, then yeah, all good. But yeah, put pick, pick, pick
• 38:59
  the right base and I think you're halfway there.
• 39:02
  And then OK, I'll. Out this with what do you
• 39:05
  think's the best example of that?
• 39:06
  Because there are so many bass under sieges.
• 39:09
  I, I, I, I would probably say from the classic series, my
• 39:12
  favorite is Robots of Death because I just think within that
• 39:18
  contained setting, he just paints a picture of an entire
• 39:22
  world there and it's just scary as hell.
• 39:25
  And in a new series, I think it's Waters of Mars, just
• 39:28
  because the characters are so vivid and as they're picked off,
• 39:31
  I'll feel every death. Yeah, I.
• 39:36
  Quite like. I'm supposed to the horror.
• 39:38
  Of Fang Rock characters are based on the Yeah.
• 39:41
  Yeah, yeah. Again, with a huge sort of
• 39:44
  isolated location. Yeah, yeah.
• 39:47
  Inhospitable and it's again with with a literary inspiration to
• 39:51
  it. Fan and Isle Brilliant
• 39:53
  characters as well. Yes, the impossible Satan.
• 40:00
  Planet. That's another goodie, yeah.
• 40:03
  I love the. I love the.
• 40:04
  Yes, I love the way you said that, the impossible St.
• 40:07
  Pip on it. Oh, that's directly.
• 40:08
  Sold him from Cyhart, who's a much funnier man than me.
• 40:13
  Well, well, well, well, Nicked. Yeah, Yeah, I suppose I do.
• 40:16
  I suppose I do. You know, based on the siege,
• 40:18
  it's a, it's a classic for a reason.
• 40:21
  I I suppose the only downside to a base on the siege story is the
• 40:24
  moment the audience goes, ah, it's a base on the siege story.
• 40:28
  If you, if you can, maybe this is it.
• 40:31
  Maybe if you can, yeah, with the best ones, maybe.
• 40:36
  Are those the ones you don't necessarily twig that that's
• 40:39
  what it is, as you just said to me?
• 40:41
  There, I suppose the horror fan rock is a base under siege
• 40:44
  story. As if you hadn't really thought
• 40:46
  about that before. You just watched a great story.
• 40:48
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
• 40:49
  So maybe if you can, if you aren't going to attempt a base
• 40:53
  under siege story, don't do all the, you know, avoid the
• 40:57
  difficult base commander type thing, a board, avoid something
• 41:02
  that's obviously a base. And I've got a good I've got.
• 41:07
  Two good examples, classic and a new series where I think
• 41:11
  straight away I went, oh OK, we're doing bass under siege.
• 41:14
  So they're obviously not doing something quite right.
• 41:17
  And I love terror the verve voice don't get me wrong, but I
• 41:21
  I believe the brief was do a bass under siege story.
• 41:25
  And immediately it's like. The the voice over goes 10
• 41:29
  people trapped in a spaceship. One of them is a murderer.
• 41:32
  You know, like it's very much setting up install straight
• 41:35
  away. And the new series.
• 41:38
  The new series, one that I admit, it's a time where I think
• 41:42
  the new series was a bit tired as well, is before the floods.
• 41:47
  And what's it called? Yeah, that two parts were in
• 41:51
  series 9 under the lake and before the flood.
• 41:54
  Yeah. Which is a very competent Doctor
• 41:56
  Who story. But immediately I was like, oh,
• 41:58
  OK, it's a base, it's isolated, there's water all around and
• 42:02
  there's 8 characters. Let's go.
• 42:04
  Yeah, competent. Is next is lives next door with
• 42:07
  a solid in my head I yeah, we've had this.
• 42:10
  Discussion. It was both competent.
• 42:13
  And solid. It's like, oh God, was it?
• 42:16
  I don't think you've. Produced anything either
• 42:18
  competent or solid, and I mean that.
• 42:20
  And I mean that as a compliment, all right.
• 42:25
  Oh yeah, yeah. Well, look, thank you very much
• 42:28
  for your time today. Now to everybody, did we?
• 42:30
  Did we kind? Of do do give that a fair crack,
• 42:34
  I think. Well, we're only halfway.
• 42:35
  There, Rob, I know. Well, yeah.
• 42:37
  Good. Well, we've got we've got three
• 42:38
  more episodes to kind of, yeah. Well, I'm going to.
• 42:42
  Watch the movie in between. Oh yeah, do let me.
• 42:45
  Let me know what you think. Yes, I will.
• 42:47
  Well, I'm. I'm.
• 42:48
  Hoping once I end this episode, I will then I will then make
• 42:53
  arrangements to record the other half next week so we can bring
• 42:55
  this thing out and any other preparations I should do or any
• 43:00
  other things that you've mentioned today that I can
• 43:02
  watch? Really.
• 43:05
  That's. The Big 10, by all means, do do
• 43:07
  this just to give yourself some love.
• 43:11
  Yeah, the The Goon Show episode Yeti, it's on, it's on, it's on
• 43:16
  iPlayer so you can iPlayer. OK, so you can listen to it.
• 43:19
  Anytime you like, but yeah, it's definitely listen to that after
• 43:22
  you've watched the Nigel new just to sort.
• 43:25
  Of Polish it off. I may listen to one episode of
• 43:27
  the Yeti podcast as well. Just see what's going on there.
• 43:30
  Oh yeah, do do that. Do that.
• 43:33
  It's just, for me, it was kind of quite interesting, but also
• 43:38
  just uncomfortable because it's a rich, private, educated white
• 43:42
  guy living out his great white hunter fantasies, you know?
• 43:46
  I'll certainly keep that in. Mind while I'm listening.
• 43:49
  Yeah, I was. I was quite, Yeah, uncomfortable
• 43:52
  with that. But anyway, Rob.
• 43:54
  Thank you very much for your. Time.
• 43:55
  I'm saying this like we're ending this now.
• 43:58
  For everyone else, they'll be listening to you again in two
• 44:00
  days time. Wonderful.
• 44:02
  Yeah, Joe. Yeah, well, good.
• 44:04
  Yes should we end this because I words sentence stringing
• 44:09
  together good not furry at the moment.
• 44:12
  So yes, I've got it there. I've.
• 44:15
  Got it there.