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Convene Series: Executive Presence, Career Pivots, and Leading with Intention: Insights from Bill Reed · PCMA Convene Podcast

• Convene Series: Convene Series: Executive Presence, Career Pivots, and Leading with Intention: Insights from Bill Reed *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Bill Reed: For me, executive presence is entirely about a mindset and a discipline. Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene Podcast. Welcome to Season 7 of the Convene Podcast. Welcome to Season 7. In this episode, we’re joined by Bill Reed, Chief Event Strategy Officer at the American Society of Hematology, where he leads global meetings strategy for one of the largest and fastest-growing healthcare events in the world. With more than 30,000 attendees from over 110 countries, Bill knows a thing or two about high-stakes leadership, strategic vision, and delivering innovation at scale. A Past Chair of PCMA and an ASAE Fellow, Bill brings over two decades of board and executive experience to this conversation. Together, we explore how to cultivate executive presence, how to know when you’re truly ready for the next step, and why self-awareness and mindset matter more than ever in today’s evolving professional landscape. Whether you’re feeling stuck, seeking your next leadership role, or simply aiming to grow with intention—this episode is for you. We start now. Many professionals feel ready for growth, but aren't sure what their next phase and next phase, I'm putting quotation marks, should be how can someone determine if they should aim for a leadership role, a board position at another organization, or a new career pivot? What do you think? Bill Reed: You know, it's a great question and I would advise them to do it absolutely. You want to be mindful of it and give it contemplative thought. But you know, I I'm a firm believer in the concept that you always want to keep rising, and I utilize that even inside of my own head. Keep rising, pushing yourself to new perspectives or positions or responsibilities. But I think one of the things that I would share from experience is that people who are questioning that really need to be clear on what their objectives are and why someone wants a leadership role or a board position or to consider a career pivot, as you say. And I believe it's really important for that person to be honest with themselves about, you know, asking that yourself. The question is that promotion really about the money? Perhaps. Is it about the recognition that someone thinks you're ready or worthy, or they see you in that vein? So is it about that recognition that you're seeking? And I think that's important because when you attain that new direction, that new position, that new responsibility, the euphoria of acquiring it lasts for only a short time. So I think you really have to enjoy the actual work associated with this new responsibility. And I've seen people acquire some positions when after they're in the position for 30 days, they don't actually enjoy it and it's not different than what they should have anticipated it was. But now they've got themselves trapped in a position they don't really want to do, when in fact what they really wanted was more money or temporary recognition. So, you know, just as an example, oftentimes elevated roles involve more financial or business strategy analysis. Do you actually like that? Next level positions tend to be less about doing a specific task over and over again and more about getting work done through other people. So do you like that? Right. So being clear from the beginning, will you be happy in that leadership role once you get it? I'm confident you will get it. But will that be satisfying to you after you get your first paycheck or after you're on the website as a member of the board, so to speak. And for me, one of the things that I would recommend is a book. I think it's written by David Novak, if I'm remembering correctly, and it's called Taking People with you. So regardless of the next step in your career, applying those principles that he outlines in the book, that it's about people when you're in leadership roles is something I would suggest to your listeners. Magdalina Atanassova: And you mentioned that sometimes the actual need of the person might have been just recognition or more money. So how do you communicate that? If you're clear that this is what you want to get the recognition and the extra money, how do you communicate that to your manager? Bill Reed: I'm not sure that's the reason to seek that new position. Quite frankly, I think it may be more fruitful that if you're looking for new challenges, you want to learn new things, you want to have greater impact on the organization's mission or objectives. Those are the right reasons to be wanting new responsibility. It's about your evolution more than it is a tangible reward. Now, the reward can be, I'm getting smarter. I'm, you know, rounding out my experience. But to me, I think when people make really smart moves, almost as if you're playing chess, if you think about playing chess, if you're not thinking about the downstream impact of moving this piece to this position on the board, and then what are your options going to be from there? You may, as they say, paint yourself into a corner, right? So you've got to be thinking about it beyond the reward, whether that's recognition or a larger paycheck. Those things are important, don't get me wrong. But it's not an either or. It is make it about the work and let the rewards follow that. Because if you're in a position that you really love, you're going to do your best work and that will get rewarded, if that makes sense. Magdalina Atanassova: Absolutely. It actually reminded me of something that Simon Sinek says, and I'll paraphrase it, but it was along the lines of don't go to places to get, but to give. So that was kind of, you know, be the giving person. Don't go to places just to expect a reward or something back. So I really like this mentality and this concept. Bill Reed: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: So you've been on both sides of hiring and board selection, so it's completely different way of how you look at people. And you've also served on the PCMA board. So what are the key elements of executive presence, and how can candidates demonstrate them effectively in interviews? Bill Reed: That's a really interesting question. And I think out in the business world there are lots of viewpoints on executive presence, and we could talk about that topic alone for hours. Right. But you know what I would share, for me, executive presence is entirely about a mindset and a discipline. Sometimes people think of it as a look. Right. So they'll point to someone who looks a certain way and say, that person looks like an executive. Right. But the reality is, in my lived experience, there are executives who look a certain way and might fit into a commonly held view on what an executive looks like physically, demeanor, that. But occasionally you learn that those people who look the part would be better served not being in a leadership role. Right. And it sort of reminds me of Lee Iacocca going back several decades, who was an influential business leader of his time running a major automobile organization, who coined the phrase lead, follow, or get out of the way. And that has always resonated with me. And I remember it and think of it. And sometimes in the course of my day, I will think about, okay, am I leading? Should I be a follower now, letting someone else lead, or bill, you might just get the hell out of the way, and that might be the best thing. So for me, the executive presence is about my mindset. And my mindset is that I'm the CEO of me. And I take that responsibility very seriously, that I'm responsible for all of my actions, what I say, what I do, the impact that I have on someone else, that emotional intelligence. And I think it all goes back at its roots to a teacher I had in junior high school. I won't get into the details, but I had not been my best self that day, let's just say that. And. And she was admonishing me in a graceful way. And she ended our conversation by saying, I just want to leave you with one thing. And she did this dramatic pause that I still remember distinctly. And she said clearly, I expect great things from you, Bill Reed. And it was the way that she said it, as if she was saying, you know what? Get your you know what together, because you've got the potential for greatness. And it really took me aback at that moment in time in my journey as a young kid. And I reflected upon it, I remember it later that day, I just kept thinking about it. And I came to the conclusion that was revolutionary for the way I thought about myself at the time. And I asked myself the question, why do I not have the same expectation for myself? Why does it take an external person to challenge you in this way? And can't you do that for yourself? So I adopted the mantra and I say it to myself all the time. And you know, when you say it frequently over years and decades, you recognize how powerful it can be for yourself. I expect great things from you, Bill Reed. Talking to myself so that mindset causes me to ask a lot of questions. And I would suggest that someone who wants to elevate their executive presence might want to think about, you know, whether they're prepared to lead at every possible moment. So you're at the ready when the situation calls for it. For a leader to step into a situation, are you that person? Are you prepared at every moment to step in if it's needed? And that preparation is contingent upon doing your homework in advance. We think of the stereotypical CEO when she or he is in a meeting or working with a group of people, they have always been prepared, whether it's someone on their staff prepared them for what they were walking into. But earlier on in your career, you have to do that preparation work yourself. But it takes the discipline to make sure your preparing in advance for what might be happening, that you need to bring your A game. And when I worked for The Walt Disney Company, it was after 9 11. This was during the Michael Eisner era at Disney. And he held a call together all the the leaders in the company. And I remember him distinctly sitting on a bar stool on a stage. And I kind of went into it cynically thinking, okay, this is going to be a message how you have to do more with less in these challenging times. If you think back to it, you know who was traveling back then? No one. So it was imperative for Disney to respond. And he, much to my surprise, and I think the surprise of those in the audience challenged us to think about right now in these very difficult times, you have to, as a leader, fill your own cup first, take care of your needs first. So you can imagine that's very divergent in what many might believe. And he went on further to explain that, as a leader, we need you to be fueled with energy and have your cup filled so that you've got something left over to offer to someone else. Because he went on to say, our cast members need you and your leadership and your help now more than ever. So if your gas tank, so to speak, is running on empty, you're not going to have anything to offer anyone else. And he declared, as a leader, we need you to help others to, you know, help us rebuild the business. And that stuck with me years later. I'm cognizant of it. I've put it into practice for myself. So it sounds selfish, but the notion is you can give more if you first take care of your needs. So I think that executive presence starts there from the inside out, and asking yourself, are you actively deploying all of your senses, especially the silent ones, the ones like sight and observation? Are you paying attention to what you can see right before you? And especially as it relates to seeing people reading their body language, but mostly listening, right? I think some of the strongest leaders are not the ones that are out there dominating the conversation, controlling the narrative in a meeting, but the ones who are staying silent on the sidelines, listening to what others have to say, and then at the right moment, they're able to synthesize everything they heard from others and pivot it into something actionable, or discovering what the commonality is in everyone's contributions, because it is that commonality is what you can get people to take consensus action upon. Because if you've heard that commonality, everyone's going to buy into it, right? So that important part of executive presence, as well as the notion asking yourself, do you willingly, willingly accept it as your role to bring everyone along in a path towards something? Whether that something is for an individual? It may be a mission, a subjective. Do you willingly accept it is your responsibility, if you are the leader, to do that and to be mindful of, you can't leave anyone behind. This analogy is used in a military sense frequently, but in a workplace or a boardroom or in a convention center, is the leader being mindful of who's being left behind and what can they do to circle back and bring them into the fold? That's part of the role of the leader. Someone's got to do that. If you want to lead a group of people to accomplish anything. And one thing I know for sure, in this industry, nothing gets accomplished in isolation or by one person. Everything requires the cooperation, collaboration, the contributions of at least another person. But usually it's many people. And that's what I really love about it. So I go back to that day in junior high school again, and I'm cognizant that as a leader, someone is watching me and they may need the model to follow. Like I had the model in that junior high school teacher who said to me, I expect great things from you, Bill Reed. And that still, decades later, still lives in my heart. It still conjures up an emotion, and I can use that for fuel, to push myself. Magdalina Atanassova: I really like that. Especially when you said that at Disney you had this message to fill your tank first. And we've often heard, you know, leaders eat last. Quoting Simon, Scene X book, even. But I agree that when the leader comes without the energy in the room, then the whole team sinks. If the leader comes, even in difficult times, with a clear idea, with calm demeanor and just pointing at the direction, even if it's not the right direction, doesn't matter, but there is a direction to follow, then the whole team is much easier to follow that suit and to be energized as well. So, you know, the. Bill Reed: Where you initially start from, as you say, may not matter to me. I think the imperative thing is the group is moving together. You may start going in a certain direction. And I would hope that if you started in a direction and you're seeing evidence a course correction is needed, that can always be an option. Right. So you don't have to have it perfect from the very beginning, but build some momentum, get started. Doing something is better than being frozen in place or the team going in disparate paths and you've got chaos. Right. But I think also leaders don't always get it right. I know I don't, of course, and that's okay because I think people respect. If you made a mistake, own it, for God's sakes, and move on. And people have an amazing potential for forgiveness. Magdalina Atanassova: And I wanted to ask you, when we're speaking about the situations with teams, so what would be your advice to people that feel stuck in their current role, but they're eager for a next step? What should be their next move? Bill Reed: I would first start with if you are feeling stuck. I just hate that word. Can I tell you that it's not a good place to be and we all have an obligation. You must Must initiate change if you are feeling stuck. And I would go on further to say, never allow yourself to feel stuck, period. But if you find yourself in that position, I get it right. I wish you didn't land there. I would say you've got to stop it. And if you're complaining about it, you've got to stop complaining about it. In life, but especially in business, in our relationships, in our personal life, we all need to take ownership or responsibility for wherever we are. One of my great inspirations, I don't know how well known she is, but one of the people I look to for guidance in different situations is a woman named Janla Van Sant. She has a television show and podcasts and all that jazz. I think she's written several books, but she talks about. And I can hear her voice when she says it. And she says, you gotta do the work, beloveds. And she says it sometimes in a forceful way. When she needs to get someone she's working with unstuck. She says it in a loving way. When you know someone is trying to do the work, but they're just not giving it their all, you've got to do the work. So however you got to the position of being stuck or feeling stuck, you gotta take ownership of that and figure out, how in the world did I allow myself to get here, but more importantly, pivot, how do I get myself out of here? Who wants to feel stuck? Right. So taking that accountability for your situation and connecting the dots between your action, or in some cases, I would suppose, lack of action with your current state, if you really figure out why or how you got there, you're better equipped to prevent it from happening again. And the more you do that, the more you realize your situation is probably a result of something you took action on or didn't take action. That builds confidence. And there's nothing more empowering to move in a direction than you having the confidence. Because so many things that require extensive effort are going to be tiring. So you need that confidence that you can do it, you can keep going. But ultimately, taking dominion over your future is what this is all about. And I think if you make it a priority every day to start moving in a new direction, hopefully you can do that within the same organization. You don't have to change employers. Sometimes you do. There are some toxic organizations or toxic for certain individuals to be in that. So I don't want to be Pollyanna about that. But sometimes it may be necessary to go somewhere else. And that can also be a good thing, because a Variety of experience makes you stronger. You're prepared for different scenarios. I think back at my time at Experian, we served such a variety of customers and different types of events, from large technology corporate meetings to major association meetings, that I felt like my time with that company. The variety in the types of events, I feel pretty darn sure I've seen it all. So I have more experience in my toolkit to draw from when something unexpected comes about. And for me, that's powerful. That gives me confidence that when something. Something could come up that we don't plan on, it usually does. Right. Chances are I might have seen it before. And that's one of the things that I value about my experience. And I'm so thankful that I worked for different organizations and that variety has been helpful. Magdalina Atanassova: I like when you said being stuck or feeling stuck. Bill Reed: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Because there is a difference. Yeah. And I think people should really zoom in on that and decide which of the two it is. Bill Reed: Do you think if people are stuck, do you think they can discern the difference between being stuck and feeling stuck? Magdalina Atanassova: I think so, yeah. I would be confident. People can feel a difference. Because if you are stuck because of the circumstances, your hands are tight, you can't do anything about it. It's a different feeling than just, I just feel blocked in my head. I don't know how to act. So for me, that would be the difference of which of the two it is. And once you identify, then you have more clear direction where you should go. Bill Reed: Right. Magdalina Atanassova: So beyond job performance, what are the best ways to increase your visibility and credibility in the industry, to become a top candidate for leadership roles? And can data even play a role in that? Bill Reed: Wow, that's interesting. The. I think beyond job performance, you know, if you want to keep growing in your career, job performance is an imperative. Right. So I love this question from the perspective of let's assume everyone is a rock star in the doing all the things that your job description says that you're supposed to do. Right. That's an imperative. But increasing your visibility and credibility in the industry, I think comes from within. And I would suggest that credibility is earned along the way so it doesn't magically happen overnight. You build upon it step by step by step. So if I'm interacting with you for the first time, if you can create a good first impression and then it's followed up by the next time you interact with that same person, they have a consistent experience, and maybe you offer them something additional that they were not expecting, and then the third time you Interact with them. They see this was not, you know, so and so having a good day or, you know, really shining in a very specific moment. This is a pattern of excellence, a pattern of leadership, a pattern that starts to form your reputation and your brand attributes. Right. So, you know, one thing that I think establishes that credibility is sometimes there are an awful lot of leaders who are cheerleaders and will always be enthusiastic. And that is great. But I think where the rubber meets the road between good leaders and great leaders is I believe great leaders are comfortable in being a devil's advocate voice or challenging commonly held wisdom on any particular topic in a professional, appropriate way. Of course, I don't want to be the, you know, oh, I won't use the word in the room, but can you pose a question to help a group of people just think about a situation if it's 10% differently, you've just made a huge contribution. And I think if the more you do that, the more you can help a group of people achieve more, regardless of what they're striving to do. But if there's gotta be a catalyst in the room that turns the conversation just a little bit better, makes an idea a little bit better, that becomes your visibility, adds to your credibility. And, you know, for me, visually, I think of the aspect of lemmings. Are you familiar with lemmings? You know, and they often will just follow each other, you know, so they're an animal that often will follow each other, even if that means going over the side of a cliff. And they'll all go over the side of the cliff. I think you want to think about that. If you want to be a great leader, don't be comfortable being a lemming and don't allow a team of people trying to accomplish something to get into that lemming mentality. So, you know, apply the. I think the critical thinking skill may be more important than you asked about data. Data can help you validate some things or discover some things that you need to investigate and validate intuitively or through other observation. Sometimes I think too much emphasis. There are leaders who rely upon data, and that's a great thing. I do it. I'm curious about data, but it's not in a silo because data can tell you a story that may not be true, but it's the story you want to hear. Magdalina Atanassova: Yes. Bill Reed: So you got to be careful with data. And I think we're seeing that in the era of AI, Right. So AI is really important. It can accelerate the assembly of data and the beginnings of Insights. But let's not lose focus on it takes a human to actually validate what it is purporting will resonate with other human beings. Does that make sense? Magdalina Atanassova: Absolutely. Bill Reed: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Because you alluded to it. So I was thinking if we should discuss that beyond job performance. Right. Because in my opinion and what I've seen, there are people that their job performance not great, but that's so just because they're not in the right place, occupying the right position, and sometimes even if it's in within the same company, changing their role just to adapt to their strengths, their job performance can skyrocket, can completely turn. But that takes great either to observe that, to see that and to give the chance. Right. So that was. You kind of alluded to it. You know, job performance is this also huge topic that people have to think about. It's not something that it's all equal for everyone working in a job. So. Bill Reed: Yeah. And I would say to you, in those situations, you know, the right person in the right position at the right time in their evolution. Right. So I think there are times when people's performance is not living up to expectations and there may be a leader who's not comfortable offering that feedback. So they kind of give them performance evaluations that neither offend them nor help them. Right. Feedback is the absolute minimum standard that anyone should expect from their supervisor or the person they report to. If you're not getting any helpful feedback, you need to find a new boss. Right. And if you're that boss who doesn't have the courage to say to that person, I think we're headed down a path that's not going to end joyfully. Right. So I want to tell you now, here's what I think you're missing in this position. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, but you've got to own can you either deliver this to the expectation or we got to find you another job. And that's not an easy conversation to have with someone. But the more you have the conversation with it, you are earning more leadership credibility in my mind. Because if you get to the path where a person is being fired, either you're being fired or you are firing someone. You both have failed. Right. So why would you want to do that to any human being? It would be braver to have the difficult conversation to share the input that the person needs to share and say, okay, are there positions where you would thrive? How can I help you navigate towards that position within our organization? Or it may just be, look, we can figure out a way. If you need to find a job in another organization, I'll work with you to give you the time you need. We'll figure out how to do it in this ecosystem. Right. But at the end of the day, I have failed as a leader. If we get to the point where I have to invite you to find your happiness elsewhere and that's my responsibility. But gosh darn it, you've got to do your part too. Either step up and deliver performance or get busy finding your next opportunity. We don't want to end up at a dead end road where someone goes home devastated or I just can't imagine what that conversation is like for that person when they go home to their family, their spouse, their whomever and has to say, I lost my job today. Magdalina Atanassova: Absolutely. It's a very. It's not acceptable for sure. And I agree that it really comes to the leader because if they're not having the difficult conversation with the person that's clearly not performing, it reflects on the rest of the team. They see it, they start speaking about it. You know, it all becomes this great gossip which takes away everyone away from the job and their responsibilities just because they're so fixated on this one problem that is not being fixed. Bill Reed: Why do you think people are reticent to have those difficult conversations just because it's difficult? Magdalina Atanassova: You don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but you end up hurting a lot more people in the process of allegedly not hurting one person's feelings. It is incredibly hard conversation in my career. Had to have those. Yeah, it's not fun, it's not joyful for anyone, neither of the parties. But it's necessary. Bill Reed: You know what I was going to say. It's funny you should say that because I think about the leaders I worked for who had those difficult conversations with me, who either brought forth something that I needed to improve upon or held my feet to the fire to step up. They're the ones I value the most over the arc of my career. I can see myself having that conversation with them and remember it in vivid detail. Now, the leaders that didn't tell me anything good or bad, I kind of forget about. Right. So it's ironic that people view it that, you know, they're being mean to someone if they're suggesting, hey, I think you can do better. I think that's a positive message, right? Magdalina Atanassova: It's a gift. It's a huge gift to receive or to give, depending on which side you're standing on. Bill Reed: But that's gotta Be a cultivated environment between the players. Not in the moment when you really have a problem. But it's. Have you created an environment where feedback is expected, is welcomed, is do people know how to professionally absorb the feedback and value it? And setting the expectations? Not in the heat of the moment. But here's how it works here. And that's a cultural thing that should be part of everyone's evaluation on where they bring their talent. Magdalina Atanassova: And we started off with a book suggestion, and then this reminds me of another book, the One Minute Manager, which I feel was. It's great. It's a very short read for those that haven't read it, but it really gives you those little tips on how to cultivate that culture. Bill Reed: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: For those listeners that are sticking with us today, if they could take just one key action to prepare for their next career move, what should it be? Bill Reed: I think thinking about what makes you unique. So in interview processes, or I've seen, you know, being part of board selection committees and such and participating in both of those environments. One of the things that I've been shocked to observe actually, is how similar candidates can present themselves. Rather than taking a step back at the very beginning to identify what makes you unique, not what you have in common with 100 other candidates, what makes you unique. And amplifying that. From the very beginning of completing the application or submitting materials or an initial interview, in a final interview, have you been intentional about helping the person or the group of people making the decision really identify why you are the ideal candidate? They will talk to many qualified candidates, but what is going to make you stand out above the rest? And I found that when you looked at people's materials and you're reading the 12th resume or the 20th cover letter, they all kind of sound the same and vanilla. And so how do you step away from the pact and articulate what is it that this person making a decision needs to know about me, about my experience, what I can bring to the table that's different than everyone else? And just keep reiterating that at every step along the journey. And I was surprised because there are some people who've got great experience and interview really poorly, meaning they are their worst advocates. Right. And you don't want to be that person. And then there are others who don't have the right experience, but they have figured out how to present themselves in a way that even if they don't have the picture perfect experience they convey to the person making the decision, I'm willing to take a chance on this individual because they are so thoughtful or dynamic or visionary, or they're bringing new ideas to the table that none of these other candidates came up with. We need that on our team. So it's starting the process with the end in mind. And I kind of think of it in the way of being a trial attorney. Right. If you think about in a courtroom setting, they're making an argument for something and they are clear on what their strategy is, on how they are going to get the judge or the jury to believe their position compared to the other sides. Right. So if you think about that, there's an opening argument, there's a presentation of the evidence, you know, you're talking about your experience or qualifications. And then the closing arguments. I think a mistake that many people are making in their career, they don't think about the closing argument from the very beginning. So the opening argument should be teeing up what you're about to tell them and what makes you different, why you are the best candidate then assembly of the evidence. Let me tell you about my accomplishments. Let me tell you about my background, my skill set. And then in the closing argument, going right back to the opening. In the opening, I told you that I was the most. Whatever superlative candidate you're likely to talk to. Let me refresh your memory on why that is. So that they're leaving it with a story arc, beginning, middle, and an end. Disney does that in everything it does. Right. So if you think about that arc, did you take the time at the beginning to think about your closing argument? I would also. I'm going to poke at everyone. By God, when you're going after a position or a responsibility, do the basics. You would be shocked how many resumes have typos or nonsensical text. You know, a sentence that's written, and clearly the phone rang in the middle of that sentence being typed because it never got finished. Right. But it says something about you. I mean, it's so basic, but it says something about you that I didn't even care enough to read this one last time before he sent it to you. I don't want that person on my team. Right. Magdalina Atanassova: Certainly not Bill. Was there anything we didn't mention we should before we wrap up? Bill Reed: You know, I guess I would just share that regardless of where you are in your career, to bring forth everything that you've got and to be pushing yourself. I think, you know, for me, at this stage in my career, one of the things that I have absolutely loved in the last five years as an example is these uncertain Times of the global health crisis and the pandemic and the uncertainty we're now going through financially, culturally, society wide issues is what's exciting for me is instead of coasting to a finish line, I am utilizing the tools and the skills and the mindset of my earlier stages of my career in that in some situations, take the pandemic, no one knew what the right answer was, so you kind of had to figure it out, right? So that reminded me of when I finished college and I had my first job in a hotel. I didn't necessarily have any of the answers, but what was exciting is figuring out and discovering what could happen through trial and error and just being bold and adapting new ways of doing anything was exciting. So I think that what I've learned in the last five years is how can you put that into play in your career all the time? So not settling in, so challenging yourself to learning and being curious and asking questions and understanding why something is whatever it is, not staying at the surface, but really being willing to dig in and understand more. And to me, that's the exciting part of my journey. And I think if we could all do that for ourselves all the time, this is a great industry to work in. It has potential to be even greater because I'm convinced once you've worked in this industry, you can absolutely do anything in the business world or in life because it teaches you about people and adaptability and cultivating your strengths. Magdalina Atanassova: What a great end to a great conversation. Bill, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Bill Reed: Oh, this has been great. Thank you. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.