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Feminist Movie Friday: Jennifer's Body · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to Stephane. Never
0:08
Speaker 1: told your production of I Heart Radio. It's time for
0:19
Speaker 1: another feminist movie Friday. This is a listener suggestion and
0:24
Speaker 1: I want to do it because as this comes out,
0:27
Speaker 1: unless something has shifted on our schedule, which is always possible,
0:30
Speaker 1: it is Friday. I was going to stay here in
0:34
Speaker 1: the US, but I guess most places other places also,
0:41
Speaker 1: maybe it's the significance is more US. I don't know. Traditionally,
0:47
Speaker 1: if like that's a bad number anywhere else, it's pretty sure,
0:50
Speaker 1: isn't it. China, they don't have a lot of the
0:53
Speaker 1: elevators don't have thirteen. Yeah, possibly, and it's kind of like,
0:56
Speaker 1: but if it's floor, even if it isn't called the team,
1:01
Speaker 1: is it still bad luck? And that's a question for
1:06
Speaker 1: a different podcast, because yes, we need to ask truth Hounds.
1:12
Speaker 1: Let's get him on the phone. But no, we are
1:17
Speaker 1: talking about Jennifer's Body, which is a movie I actually
1:21
Speaker 1: only recently saw, I think in the past two years.
1:24
Speaker 1: Based on your suggestion, Samantha and I really really enjoyed it.
1:28
Speaker 1: I think it was for Female Revenge. I can't remember
1:31
Speaker 1: what episode it was specifically, but I watched like, oh,
1:35
Speaker 1: Female Monsters, that a Female Monsters episode. So I was
1:39
Speaker 1: really shocked, and we're gonna talk more about this in
1:42
Speaker 1: a minute, that it bombs so badly because I really
1:44
Speaker 1: liked it, and yeah, I found movie. Oh that was
1:47
Speaker 1: a dumb movie. I was like, what did you watch it?
1:49
Speaker 1: Because it was supposed to be tongue in cheek, like
1:51
Speaker 1: it's absolutely of course some of the things don't translate.
1:54
Speaker 1: Well today you're like, oh, that did not age. Please
1:56
Speaker 1: don't use that word, please don't use that phrase whatever,
1:59
Speaker 1: But the actual intent to me made sense. So I
2:04
Speaker 1: was very apparently I was one up on everybody else
2:08
Speaker 1: and understanding of this movie. But yeah, so I was
2:14
Speaker 1: really shocked that it wasn't as good as well. Many
2:17
Speaker 1: people said they didn't like it, and I'm like, but why,
2:19
Speaker 1: it's hilarious. It's fantastic. Do you remember when you saw it?
2:23
Speaker 1: Did you see in theaters? Or I didn't see it
2:25
Speaker 1: in theaters? It was much later, not much later, but
2:27
Speaker 1: it was later. No, I was probably two thousand nine,
2:30
Speaker 1: but I didn't watch it in theaters. It must have
2:31
Speaker 1: been like I watched it on some type of special
2:34
Speaker 1: movie channel because I keep wanting to say movie streaming
2:37
Speaker 1: or whatever exists today which did not exist at that
2:39
Speaker 1: point in time, because streaming did not exist. It was
2:42
Speaker 1: Netflix out in two thousand nine, I think it was.
2:45
Speaker 1: It was, It wasn't It was at least in that
2:47
Speaker 1: like DBD for I think, so, yeah, I'm not rented.
2:50
Speaker 1: I'm rented this movie somehow. There you go, there we go.
2:54
Speaker 1: That's a long time I made to get because I
2:56
Speaker 1: just my mind went to the streaming. This is how
2:59
Speaker 1: old in my mind was like, oh yeah, I was
3:01
Speaker 1: that old when I went to Blockbuster. I still have
3:03
Speaker 1: a membership card because that was one in my college town.
3:07
Speaker 1: I actually didn't see it, and, like I said, until
3:10
Speaker 1: you suggested it recently. But and we're going to talk
3:12
Speaker 1: about this later, one of the reasons I didn't see
3:15
Speaker 1: it was because the marketing campaign was so bad that
3:20
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't think I thought what a lot
3:22
Speaker 1: of people thought, which was that it was just going
3:23
Speaker 1: to be like Megan Fox getting naked. But I did
3:27
Speaker 1: think it was gonna have a lot more like sex
3:31
Speaker 1: and nudity and just kind of be more body horror
3:35
Speaker 1: than it is. And there's still some body horror there,
3:37
Speaker 1: but not like what I was thinking, and so I
3:40
Speaker 1: amvloided it out of that and we did at the time,
3:44
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about this too, But at the
3:45
Speaker 1: time there was a real backlash against Megan Fox and
3:49
Speaker 1: so I don't I don't remember. I wasn't like, oh,
3:52
Speaker 1: it's going to be so stupid. I just thought, well,
3:53
Speaker 1: it really isn't for me, And it turns out it
3:56
Speaker 1: was for me. Of the whole marketing campaign we're gonna
4:00
Speaker 1: get into, and also there is talk of a TV
4:03
Speaker 1: show and we're another movie depending on what source you read.
4:06
Speaker 1: Megan Fox j spoke out support of it, which is
4:08
Speaker 1: kind of a big deal because she's pretty quiet about
4:10
Speaker 1: this movie for a while. And this was writer Diablo
4:13
Speaker 1: Cody's original intent. She thought it would be better as
4:15
Speaker 1: like a ten part mini series type thing. Apparently this
4:20
Speaker 1: movie served as a visual inspiration for Olivia Rodrigues Good
4:24
Speaker 1: for You music video, which I will admit I haven't seen,
4:28
Speaker 1: so I cannot say me either. Yeah, either where everybody's
4:32
Speaker 1: clicked off of us were irrelevant, Now yes, we're absolutely irrelevant.
4:36
Speaker 1: But yeah, let's go ahead and start with the plot.
4:39
Speaker 1: Jenna first Body as a two that was a nine
4:41
Speaker 1: horror movie directed by Karen Kusama, written by Diabolo Cody,
4:45
Speaker 1: and starring Megan Fox as a popular high school student
4:48
Speaker 1: Jennifer who gets possessed by a demon and goes on
4:52
Speaker 1: a killing spree of her male classmates and Amanda Ciphered
4:56
Speaker 1: as Anita or Needy, which is really on the nose,
4:59
Speaker 1: her shy friend who tries to stop her, of course,
5:03
Speaker 1: and we have to pretend like she's not a hot
5:04
Speaker 1: girl just because she's got glasses. She's not hot, Okay cool.
5:09
Speaker 1: And the title comes from a song of the same
5:12
Speaker 1: name Mahole, who was also featured in this soundtrack, and
5:15
Speaker 1: a graphic novel was released alongside the film. By the way,
5:19
Speaker 1: the soundtrack is pretty good, especially if we have nostalgic
5:22
Speaker 1: moments of early two thousand. Yeah, and the soundtrack was
5:25
Speaker 1: very specifically chosen based on kind of this indie band thing.
5:31
Speaker 1: So so let's break down the phont a little bit
5:33
Speaker 1: more and talk about that. The story is told from
5:35
Speaker 1: Anita's point of view, who narrates the movie from solitary
5:38
Speaker 1: confinement where she is a violent mental patient, and through
5:42
Speaker 1: flashbacks we learned that even though Nita Anita, I always
5:45
Speaker 1: want to say Anita, but she's pretty much called needy
5:47
Speaker 1: and everything I read. But anyway, friends with Jennifer. They've
5:51
Speaker 1: been friends growing up from a young age in Devil's Kettle, Minnesota,
5:55
Speaker 1: which is a great name. Anita calls them sandbox friends,
5:58
Speaker 1: but they go on to nickname me Oather Vadgis Hill,
6:00
Speaker 1: I'm monest At a high school, Anita is insecure, something
6:05
Speaker 1: that Jennifer's selfish behavior only worse than. They're very codependent
6:08
Speaker 1: on each other. When they're in high school, Jennifer convinces
6:11
Speaker 1: Anita to come with her to a local spot to
6:13
Speaker 1: see a band named Low Shoulder, and they are very
6:16
Speaker 1: like emo kind of trying for this like panic at
6:20
Speaker 1: the disco type thing. So as they're watching this show,
6:25
Speaker 1: a fire breaks out in the bar, and then he
6:26
Speaker 1: did tries and fails to keep Jennifer from going with
6:28
Speaker 1: the band, and actually I forgot about Anita over hears
6:32
Speaker 1: the conversation with the band members trying to be like
6:33
Speaker 1: is she a virgin? Yes, she absolutely leave her alone? Yeah, yarts. Yeah.
6:42
Speaker 1: I also love that Chris Pratt pops in as someone
6:46
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, he pops up and you're like what And
6:50
Speaker 1: then also j K Simmons playing his roles hilarious, and
6:53
Speaker 1: Amy Sadera's playing the mom like this is an obvious
6:57
Speaker 1: tongue in cheat movie. If you have those specific characters,
7:00
Speaker 1: you should be aware. I guess maybe that to me
7:03
Speaker 1: was like, maybe that's the hindsight thing because we know
7:06
Speaker 1: them better now. But whatever. So later that night, Jennifer
7:10
Speaker 1: shows up a Needy's home covered in blood trying to
7:14
Speaker 1: scarf down chicken was she can't hold the food down
7:19
Speaker 1: and puce of this black liquid dark black liquid apparently
7:22
Speaker 1: has needles in it or something. Jennifer flees into the
7:25
Speaker 1: night after she asks her are you scared? And with
7:28
Speaker 1: Needy once again try and stop her, but failing to
7:31
Speaker 1: do so and scurrying away because she's also scared. Jennifer
7:35
Speaker 1: dismisses Needy's concerns the next day at school and seems
7:39
Speaker 1: to be okay, as in fact glowing enough. However, yes,
7:45
Speaker 1: Jennifer lore's the captain of the football team out into
7:48
Speaker 1: the woods and this embowels him. It was not pretty.
7:51
Speaker 1: His corpses later discovered, and of course all of the
7:54
Speaker 1: animals I guess come around for the sacrifice. They're ready,
7:57
Speaker 1: so they come preparing to eat the rest of the
7:59
Speaker 1: leftover you. Meanwhile, the band Low Shoulder is suddenly basking
8:04
Speaker 1: and praise for their heroism at the fire and preparing
8:06
Speaker 1: to play a charity show at the school's spring formal
8:10
Speaker 1: because you know, they rescued so many people and from
8:13
Speaker 1: that fire, which if you watch, they did not, Yeah,
8:17
Speaker 1: started in mysterious circumstances, shall we say so? Time passes
8:22
Speaker 1: and Jennifer starts looking unwell. The glow fades. She goes
8:26
Speaker 1: on a date with a golf boy and kills him
8:29
Speaker 1: a nita while having sex with her Boyfriendship senses that
8:32
Speaker 1: something is wrong and rushes out, almost hitting a blood
8:35
Speaker 1: covered at Jennifer. With their car disturbed, Needy drives home
8:39
Speaker 1: only to find Jennifer in her bedroom. Jennifer kisses her
8:41
Speaker 1: and the pair briefly makes out before Jennifer tells Anya
8:44
Speaker 1: that on the night of fire, Low Shoulder took her
8:47
Speaker 1: into the woods and performed a Satanic ritual using her
8:50
Speaker 1: as a virgin sacrifice to secure fame and fortune for themselves.
8:54
Speaker 1: The thing is, she was not a virgin, and when
8:57
Speaker 1: the bandleader was played by Adam Brody, murdered her. A
9:01
Speaker 1: demon possessed her body, so it went wrong. She also
9:04
Speaker 1: reveals that she had eaten a student presumed dead in
9:06
Speaker 1: the fire that night. On top of that, she claims
9:10
Speaker 1: she doesn't really feel pain and is now nearly impossible
9:13
Speaker 1: to kill right. I also liked that they decided to
9:16
Speaker 1: sing eight three or nine I know when they kill
9:20
Speaker 1: her and they sat press It's awful. That scene is
9:23
Speaker 1: actually really disturbing to me, it really, especially Megan Fox
9:27
Speaker 1: does a great job and playing petrified victim there. So
9:30
Speaker 1: the town is a reeling from the fire in recent depths,
9:33
Speaker 1: and Needy decides to do some research, deciding that Jennifer
9:37
Speaker 1: is a succubus, meaning she needs to feed on flesh
9:39
Speaker 1: and is that her weakest when she's hungry. Anita shares
9:43
Speaker 1: her findings with Boyfriendship and begs him not to go
9:46
Speaker 1: to the spring formal, but he doesn't believe her. Surprise, surprise,
9:50
Speaker 1: desperate Needy breaks up with him, trying to keep him
9:52
Speaker 1: from going, but of course it doesn't work and he
9:55
Speaker 1: goes to the dance and hopes of seeing her, but instead,
9:58
Speaker 1: Oh here comes Jen of her, who suduces him into
10:02
Speaker 1: an abandoned poolhouse. Of course, after lying about Colin the
10:07
Speaker 1: emo got that she killed, and Needy finds Jennifer feeding
10:13
Speaker 1: on him because she has a feeling of kissing her
10:17
Speaker 1: boyfriends lives when Jennifer's kissing him, So there's a little link,
10:20
Speaker 1: and I don't understand that it's okay, and maybe it's
10:25
Speaker 1: just like how close they were growing up or something.
10:28
Speaker 1: There's also an implication that she's in love with Jennifer,
10:31
Speaker 1: so all of those may come into play for and
10:34
Speaker 1: then she goes and tries to drown Jennifer, but Jennifer
10:38
Speaker 1: attacks her only stopped and when Chip manages to stab her,
10:42
Speaker 1: Jennifer flees after asking for a tampon because she's bleeding.
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Speaker 1: Did you get that, of course, leaving Needy alone to
10:49
Speaker 1: witness her boyfriend's final breath. Yes, So Needy comes to
10:54
Speaker 1: the conclusion that she has to kill Jennifer. She goes
10:57
Speaker 1: to Jennifer's house and tacks her with a box cutter.
11:00
Speaker 1: After a fight, Nita established Jnifer in the heart, killing her,
11:03
Speaker 1: and she's discovered over Jennifer's body with the box cutter
11:06
Speaker 1: by Jennifer's mom and is institutionalized. However, thanks to a
11:10
Speaker 1: bite from Jennifer before Jennifer died, Needy has access to
11:14
Speaker 1: some of her supernatural abilities. She uses them to escape
11:17
Speaker 1: and hunts down the band. Determined to get revenge for
11:20
Speaker 1: what happened to both her and Jennifer. She finds the
11:23
Speaker 1: band and kills them. All right, yeah, there you go. Yeah.
11:30
Speaker 1: And as we said before, when this movie first came out,
11:34
Speaker 1: it bombed at the box office, like the rating was
11:37
Speaker 1: below for the way below percent and was not well received,
11:42
Speaker 1: but it did go on to become a cult classic,
11:45
Speaker 1: and I knows being revisited by so many articles about
11:47
Speaker 1: how it was wronged and you know, how it was
11:49
Speaker 1: dismissed and how Megan Flox was wrong which has been
11:52
Speaker 1: a conversation in the last year. And the reason it's
11:55
Speaker 1: bombed is worth talking about because a lot of again
11:58
Speaker 1: of sexism is involved in sexualisation of Megan Fox and
12:01
Speaker 1: just all dismissing of her in general. And again one
12:04
Speaker 1: of the main reasons it bombed is because of how
12:06
Speaker 1: it was marketed. Yes, yes, so while both Yabo Cody,
12:11
Speaker 1: who was also part of this is she had just
12:13
Speaker 1: made Juno, so like all these expectations around that, so
12:17
Speaker 1: that was going on. Um while she and Karen Kusama
12:21
Speaker 1: set out to make a movie about teenage girls four
12:23
Speaker 1: teenage girls. They realized that the movie was being marketed
12:26
Speaker 1: towards a straight male audience, and like, yeah, really sexualized
12:30
Speaker 1: marketing that was fixated on Foxes sex appeal that made
12:34
Speaker 1: it seem more like she was gonna be having sex
12:36
Speaker 1: with dudes instead of you know, killing them. The irony
12:40
Speaker 1: of the title and the whole point of the movie
12:43
Speaker 1: was missed. Meeting audiences when and expecting something totally different
12:48
Speaker 1: and we're disappointed. The marketing team even suggested that Megan
12:51
Speaker 1: Fox host an amateur porn site to promote the movie.
12:55
Speaker 1: When Coding Kusama complained, they received responses like, well, she's
12:58
Speaker 1: sexy and she's still your friend. When asked about this
13:01
Speaker 1: whole thing, Kausama said, and those conversations, I was like, Okay,
13:04
Speaker 1: we are seeing either we made a movie that they
13:06
Speaker 1: see completely differently or what's in front of them is
13:09
Speaker 1: something they don't want to see. And at the time
13:11
Speaker 1: it was painful, but now I'm realizing this is evident
13:13
Speaker 1: of the world at large. The Marching team was going
13:16
Speaker 1: for a male audience that the creators had not made
13:19
Speaker 1: the movie for, and that they they outright dismissed the
13:23
Speaker 1: wants are even intelligence of the intended young female audience,
13:27
Speaker 1: an audience which the sexist marketing of course turned away
13:31
Speaker 1: because like me, they solved this marketing like, oh, this
13:34
Speaker 1: isn't for me, even though it was right. Reviews dismissed
13:39
Speaker 1: the movie as something to disappoint board horny boys or
13:42
Speaker 1: quote cheap, trashy exportative vehicle for the hot girl from Transformers.
13:46
Speaker 1: That's how Cody described it. Roger Ebert, who gave it
13:50
Speaker 1: an overall favorable review, described it as essentially quote Twilight
13:53
Speaker 1: for boys, which is still part of the problem because Twilight,
13:57
Speaker 1: I mean, you're meant to ogle, right, Empire. There's also
14:03
Speaker 1: this level weirdness too. The two are not to say,
14:06
Speaker 1: like that she hates men and this vampire loves this
14:11
Speaker 1: girl like as my hates man, but she's dismissive of men,
14:16
Speaker 1: okay whatever. So again, on top of some really misguided marketing,
14:22
Speaker 1: As we've discussed before, the horror genre has a long
14:25
Speaker 1: history of putting women, and especially young women and specific boxes.
14:29
Speaker 1: So like the Madonna Whore essentially rolls Jennifer a needy
14:34
Speaker 1: play up in the very mocking way. But of course
14:37
Speaker 1: this is not fit those boxes specifically, they were going
14:40
Speaker 1: outside of that, and horror movies have been and are
14:43
Speaker 1: typically generally aimed towards male audiences, though there's some amazing
14:48
Speaker 1: women in the mix. Making Fox herself was seen as
14:50
Speaker 1: a sexual object, which is one of the reasons she
14:53
Speaker 1: was cast. But again people missed the point. Yes, they
14:56
Speaker 1: were overly stating, look how sexy she is, but also
14:59
Speaker 1: like understating, like she's only says because she's gonna eat you, essentially,
15:04
Speaker 1: so people were very ready to dismiss her in the
15:07
Speaker 1: whole movie altogether. Both Fox and Cody inspired a lot
15:11
Speaker 1: of vitriol online, and they've spoken about how eager people
15:14
Speaker 1: seemed to be to tear down women who had experienced
15:17
Speaker 1: a quick rise on fame um and trashing engine of
15:20
Speaker 1: her body was a part of that, which is actually
15:22
Speaker 1: not true because Megan Fox have been around. She was
15:24
Speaker 1: twenty three when she filmed this. She started acting at sixteen,
15:28
Speaker 1: but she was immediately put in as the hot main girl,
15:31
Speaker 1: which has been her stereotype character throughout her life, which
15:34
Speaker 1: is part of the problem. Whatever, and then again with
15:39
Speaker 1: Diablo Cody, she had success, doesn't mean she's not been
15:41
Speaker 1: working out a people. Yeah, it was quick in that
15:44
Speaker 1: is a very heavy quotes. They just suddenly realized them,
15:49
Speaker 1: essentially exactly. And it goes back to our fears around
15:52
Speaker 1: ambitious women, women who don't fit into gingered boxes and
15:56
Speaker 1: the limited amount of space success and chances are allowed
15:59
Speaker 1: them as a society. And yeah, I think it's really
16:02
Speaker 1: interesting because yeah, again, I mean, the cipher is not ugly. Yes,
16:07
Speaker 1: she is played down, she doesn't have as much makeup,
16:09
Speaker 1: she doesn't wear the clothes. But I'm like, in what
16:12
Speaker 1: world is she not hot? I was? I mean, I
16:15
Speaker 1: just guess I shouldn't have been shocked, but a lot
16:17
Speaker 1: of reviews would be like, basically they made her look
16:22
Speaker 1: ugly and now I don't even get to see her boobs.
16:25
Speaker 1: This was an actual review, not like somebody online but
16:28
Speaker 1: like a publication wrote this, like I just wanted to
16:31
Speaker 1: see boobs. Yeah, there was really no nudity in the
16:34
Speaker 1: entire thing. Sorry. Yeah. And as part of this, I
16:39
Speaker 1: reread the letters some of Michael Bays of Transformers and Games.
16:43
Speaker 1: You didn't know some of his regular crew members write
16:46
Speaker 1: about Megan Fox that he published on his website, and
16:49
Speaker 1: I don't know her, but that letter was sexist. That
16:52
Speaker 1: was like, wow, he was so angry about anything she said,
17:01
Speaker 1: dismissive and the fact that she couldn't go beyond certain roles.
17:05
Speaker 1: It's so interesting, and this is a whole commentary about
17:08
Speaker 1: that era and sexualization of the young famous girls and starlets. Essentially,
17:13
Speaker 1: it's that she talks about it today and says, yeah,
17:15
Speaker 1: I've been through a lot of the hashtags to stuff
17:17
Speaker 1: and and I've been through some things and and taken
17:20
Speaker 1: back like she's like I was. I was young and
17:22
Speaker 1: immature and I shouldn't have said things, and like, why
17:26
Speaker 1: are you taking the blame? Because she's still in that
17:28
Speaker 1: mindset that she is the reason. She is taking on
17:31
Speaker 1: the blame to herself, and she is like, but mine
17:34
Speaker 1: wasn't as bad as so, and so that whole narrative.
17:37
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to see someone who you think and
17:40
Speaker 1: have been told it is such a snob and it's
17:42
Speaker 1: such a standoffish woman and and it's so all these things.
17:45
Speaker 1: And then you realized, man, that insecurity is raging. And
17:49
Speaker 1: we know because we saw the sexist commentary. We saw
17:53
Speaker 1: it was in print, and her going what essentially like, okay, fine,
17:58
Speaker 1: I guess that's me type of thing and playing those
18:00
Speaker 1: parts or being told that she's that's the only part
18:02
Speaker 1: that she can play, and then still to this day
18:06
Speaker 1: kind of like, well, I did this wrong too, And
18:08
Speaker 1: not that that's not a bad thing to take responsibility,
18:10
Speaker 1: but it goes beyond just taking responsibility and excusing the accusers.
18:14
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, Megan Fox, who had been an icon
18:17
Speaker 1: for a moment, you know, relegating to that, it's kind
18:21
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, that was bad. It still is obviously, yeah,
18:25
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that more later. But um,
18:27
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, she hasn't been She hasn't talked
18:31
Speaker 1: about this movie a lot until recently, and people have
18:34
Speaker 1: asked because a lot of the reasons that, as you said, Samantha,
18:39
Speaker 1: all these articles and it wasn't even the ten year anniversary.
18:41
Speaker 1: It was before that people were like, wow, you know,
18:43
Speaker 1: Jennifer's body was so ahead of his time, he would
18:45
Speaker 1: kill it now, and all this stuff that has sparked
18:48
Speaker 1: all these conversations around me too. And to hear Megan
18:52
Speaker 1: Fox talk about it, and when you hear her talk
18:56
Speaker 1: about it, you are like, this is really upsetting because
19:01
Speaker 1: I recognize these things too. But it's like we are
19:08
Speaker 1: dismissing kind of the bigger problem, or not blaming the
19:11
Speaker 1: people who should be blamed perhaps or get more of
19:14
Speaker 1: the blame. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. We
19:16
Speaker 1: are going to talk about that. So when asked about
19:18
Speaker 1: the movie's cult status, especially the feminist cult movie status
19:22
Speaker 1: of it during the time of Me Too and when
19:25
Speaker 1: I was reading through this, it seemed to particularly resonate
19:27
Speaker 1: during the cabinet hearings, especially when Dr Ford said, like
19:31
Speaker 1: I can all I can't forget the laughter, and when
19:34
Speaker 1: in the sacrifice scene in this movie they're laughing at
19:37
Speaker 1: her as they kill her. A lot of people drew
19:39
Speaker 1: that parallel. Cody said that for those of us who
19:42
Speaker 1: have been alive, it's like maybe on a Zitegey Sea level,
19:44
Speaker 1: it's timely, but it's a tale as old as time,
19:47
Speaker 1: and going on to say I could have made more
19:49
Speaker 1: movies like Jennifer's Body people had actually gone for a
19:53
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. This isn't a real shame, Cody said
19:56
Speaker 1: of the project to write a kind of feminist horror
19:58
Speaker 1: movie with a vintage vibe was fantasy for me, and
20:02
Speaker 1: because Ima said from the outside, I always felt like
20:04
Speaker 1: this is a horror movie about toxic friendships between girls,
20:07
Speaker 1: and on a larger scale, it's about how these alliances
20:09
Speaker 1: between girls gets distorted and corrupted by the patriarchy, and
20:12
Speaker 1: that part of the problem with an imbounced power structure
20:14
Speaker 1: like a patriarchy is that women participate in it, and
20:17
Speaker 1: so it's important to have that conversation. There's so many
20:20
Speaker 1: quotes from the both of them, I could keep reading.
20:22
Speaker 1: But here's another one. I knew I was making a
20:23
Speaker 1: movie about girls. I knew, and I wasn't making them
20:26
Speaker 1: for anyone's sort of royalistic pleasure. I was actually wanting
20:29
Speaker 1: people to kind of confront the beauty and the ugliness
20:31
Speaker 1: of girls at this age, right, Yeah, yeah. It was
20:36
Speaker 1: the whole thing, like I don't know why, but I think, yeah,
20:39
Speaker 1: I know, I knew someone liked Jennifer in my life,
20:42
Speaker 1: not to that extent, but the whole gas lighting of
20:44
Speaker 1: you know, oh, you're not as pretty as this, but
20:47
Speaker 1: you're doing great, or you're so cute, but you know
20:49
Speaker 1: if you did this type of being, uh definitely had
20:53
Speaker 1: that level. Quickly got rid of them before I think
20:55
Speaker 1: high school. It was like, I'm not about that life,
20:58
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know those people so like, Wow. But
21:01
Speaker 1: then the build up of this is not about her,
21:03
Speaker 1: It's about her trying to make it in a world
21:06
Speaker 1: that is really, really misogynistic. Again part of the movie.
21:10
Speaker 1: I loved it. A lot of the New York takes
21:13
Speaker 1: have said, essentially, this movie was ahead of its time.
21:16
Speaker 1: I guess me too, I'm ahead of my time, knew.
21:20
Speaker 1: In the words of Kusama, the movie hasn't changed. They
21:23
Speaker 1: made the movie they wanted to, which means audiences and
21:26
Speaker 1: perceptions have changed as well. About time. About time, Well,
21:47
Speaker 1: there's so many themes to go over when it comes
21:50
Speaker 1: to this movie. People y'all have written so so so
21:54
Speaker 1: much about it, but perhaps the most obvious one comes
21:57
Speaker 1: from the title alone, Jennifer's body, objectification of women, sexualization
22:02
Speaker 1: of women. So when you think about Jennifer and Megan Fox, like,
22:08
Speaker 1: to me, it does really work on like because we
22:10
Speaker 1: know what happened to her and kind of how she
22:13
Speaker 1: was cast, and then you have her playing this role
22:15
Speaker 1: as just by this band in particular, but by a
22:20
Speaker 1: lot of like dudes in the movie, just an object
22:23
Speaker 1: to be thrown away, to be used, and that when
22:29
Speaker 1: she this possession happens, when the sacrifice goes wrong, she
22:34
Speaker 1: does become just this like body that a demon is using,
22:39
Speaker 1: like how people mainly see her. And I thought that
22:42
Speaker 1: was a really interesting way to turn that kind of conversation, because,
22:48
Speaker 1: as we've said, horror movies are a great reflection for
22:51
Speaker 1: what we are afraid of. And I mean, on this
22:53
Speaker 1: show you've heard of time and time again afraid of
22:57
Speaker 1: women's sexuality, especially young women's sexuality. But ultimately, who's the
23:01
Speaker 1: one who's doing the damage. It's usually the men who
23:05
Speaker 1: are attacking or raping or using this person. And so
23:09
Speaker 1: when you flip it, when you actually make her the
23:12
Speaker 1: like dangerous body and not like the object and she's
23:16
Speaker 1: disemboweling men, it's just an interesting way to kind of
23:21
Speaker 1: flip that and think about the way we talk about
23:24
Speaker 1: how young women are so dangerous and how men can't
23:27
Speaker 1: resist them and how it's their fault or what if
23:29
Speaker 1: she actually was something dangerous that I can kill you
23:34
Speaker 1: for objectifying her. Yeah, And so I like thinking about
23:39
Speaker 1: it too, of like her body getting revenge. It's never specific.
23:42
Speaker 1: I know, we talked about it in the Succubus episode
23:46
Speaker 1: Succubis Succupied. Do you usually attack men? But it's never
23:49
Speaker 1: really specifies that she's one of those, but she clearly
23:53
Speaker 1: because there are times when she's like fighting, back, biting, needy,
23:58
Speaker 1: but she clearly goes after men and and particularly men
24:01
Speaker 1: who are either interested in her or needy, which is yes,
24:05
Speaker 1: we will talk about that a bit later, right, and
24:08
Speaker 1: kind of this, you know, if you want to read
24:10
Speaker 1: it that way, like the patriarchy whole, the people who
24:12
Speaker 1: just saw her as an object and we were just
24:14
Speaker 1: going to throw her away, those are the people she's
24:16
Speaker 1: gonna eat or on the he was just in the
24:20
Speaker 1: wrong place, wrong time. Yeah, yeah, he was the person
24:25
Speaker 1: that died first, as she killed first everybody. But by
24:29
Speaker 1: the way, see this go wash it. It's on New
24:33
Speaker 1: Billy fun but it's fun. Yes, yeah. And I think
24:39
Speaker 1: the scene that we were talking about, the virgin sacrifice scene,
24:43
Speaker 1: that scene is really upsetting and it kind of comes
24:46
Speaker 1: later on in the movie like you know something happened,
24:48
Speaker 1: and you know something that wrong, and it is painted
24:51
Speaker 1: in a way where you're supposed to think perhaps it
24:54
Speaker 1: was a sexual assault, but you don't know until later.
24:57
Speaker 1: But I mean, even like the violent parts until them
24:59
Speaker 1: is pretty camp, but that part is to me very
25:01
Speaker 1: upsetting and it does have this whole vibe of like
25:05
Speaker 1: this band is the band members all dudes are content
25:10
Speaker 1: for using this young woman's pain and body for their success.
25:15
Speaker 1: And throughout the movie it's kind of a trigger. Uh
25:18
Speaker 1: this song that keeps playing and the song is like
25:20
Speaker 1: about stalking a woman. It's like kinda oh, yeah, we've
25:24
Speaker 1: all heard songs like this, and then you find out
25:26
Speaker 1: all the guys behind that are actually creeps. Wait what right? Yeah,
25:30
Speaker 1: so that just how callously they killed her and they
25:35
Speaker 1: laughed and they sang during it, just so they could
25:37
Speaker 1: become like an indie, a big indie band. And Megan
25:41
Speaker 1: Fox said of this sacrifice scene. For me, that scene
25:44
Speaker 1: represented my relationship with the movie studios at the time,
25:46
Speaker 1: the studio executives and directors, and just Hollywood in general,
25:49
Speaker 1: because on an almost daily basis, I felt like I
25:51
Speaker 1: was being sacrificed for their gain and almost no concern
25:53
Speaker 1: for my physical well being, instrumental or emotional well being.
25:57
Speaker 1: That never is a question when you're a woman in Hollywood.
26:00
Speaker 1: Whatever they need to do to me or put me through,
26:02
Speaker 1: they were going to do it as long as I
26:03
Speaker 1: gotham what they needed. So in that moment, I think
26:05
Speaker 1: it was a very visceral, very powerful, almost cathartic experience
26:09
Speaker 1: because I was able to let out everything that I
26:10
Speaker 1: was trying to keep in and not be vulnerable and
26:13
Speaker 1: play tough and fight it. I could just surrender to
26:15
Speaker 1: it and cry and wilt and it was okay. Yeah,
26:17
Speaker 1: And she again, we talked about this just a minute ago.
26:19
Speaker 1: She also said she hasn't shared some me two experiences
26:22
Speaker 1: because she feels like she isn't a quote sympathetic victim.
26:25
Speaker 1: And it's okay because we're feminists, But am I accepted
26:28
Speaker 1: by feminist because I never felt like I was. I
26:31
Speaker 1: was the one woman where it was okay to be
26:32
Speaker 1: feminist and be like, yeah, but not her. She's stupid
26:36
Speaker 1: and she's selfish and she's a dump and we don't
26:38
Speaker 1: like her. She deserves that because she said this or
26:41
Speaker 1: did this, and yeah, I think that's She's not wrong.
26:44
Speaker 1: I think for the longest time people had made her
26:46
Speaker 1: such a villain in that network, in that whole industry,
26:50
Speaker 1: and we've seen that time and time again between Britney Spears,
26:53
Speaker 1: how we sexualized women and penalized women for being sexual
26:56
Speaker 1: and especially if they're loud about it, and especially if
26:58
Speaker 1: they're very attractive on top of that, and then you think, oh,
27:03
Speaker 1: and because they're sexualized, they are more successful than some
27:06
Speaker 1: and because they're more successful, they're like, this is not
27:09
Speaker 1: they didn't earn that. It's such a whole level, and
27:12
Speaker 1: then going through any type of mistreatment like that they
27:15
Speaker 1: think it's earned is such a gross, gross narrative. Yeah,
27:19
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's one of the things that she
27:23
Speaker 1: touches on. And just like that quote that I feel
27:25
Speaker 1: like is in this movie where you have this patriarchal
27:31
Speaker 1: system that we're all participating in on some level, and
27:34
Speaker 1: it's turning women against women instead of against men. So
27:39
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have experienced that jealousy
27:41
Speaker 1: at the very least of someone we see is very
27:44
Speaker 1: beautiful and they're getting all of their well, we feel
27:46
Speaker 1: like they're getting more opportunities because they're very beautiful, and
27:49
Speaker 1: that's what our society values in women, and we get
27:52
Speaker 1: angry at that because we don't feel like we can
27:57
Speaker 1: compete or that they're like playing along. But it's not
27:59
Speaker 1: ultimately their fault. That is the truth that right now.
28:05
Speaker 1: That is a lot of the way it's been easiest
28:08
Speaker 1: for women to get ahead is if you played on
28:10
Speaker 1: your beauty. And I think what we're really mad at
28:13
Speaker 1: is the lack of control around that and the system
28:15
Speaker 1: that we feel like it's punishing us and that we
28:17
Speaker 1: can't control. But that's in this movie too. And then
28:20
Speaker 1: also the whole sympathetic victim thing um, which we've talked
28:24
Speaker 1: about that that is also at play where you as
28:30
Speaker 1: they're killing her, um, they are all these other questions
28:35
Speaker 1: of like, well, she was wearing this and then she
28:37
Speaker 1: was drinking this and doing all this, and you're like,
28:39
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter, like this person, But we hear
28:44
Speaker 1: those things in our real world all the time constantly.
28:48
Speaker 1: But yes, yes, sexualization is a big part of this movie.
28:52
Speaker 1: I do feel like unfortunately a lot of people misinterpreted
28:54
Speaker 1: it when it first came out. But yeah, the kind
28:58
Speaker 1: of punishment for what she was wearing, how she looks,
29:01
Speaker 1: and going back to that idea of like, if if
29:05
Speaker 1: we are so scared of of women's sexuality, why not
29:09
Speaker 1: weaponize it as a woman to use it for revenge
29:12
Speaker 1: if you get possessed by a demon like you know, yeah,
29:16
Speaker 1: we are not to My only thing is she never
29:19
Speaker 1: goes after the band. I know. I think they saved it.
29:22
Speaker 1: I think they saved it for her, for for Needy,
29:25
Speaker 1: but I still was like, but I want her to
29:28
Speaker 1: me too. And I think that was actually one of
29:30
Speaker 1: the points though, is that I could be totally wrong
29:34
Speaker 1: about this, but I felt like they were saying, you know,
29:36
Speaker 1: she's just attacking everybody, every man. She's mad at this,
29:39
Speaker 1: like it doesn't matter anybody who's objectified her um or
29:44
Speaker 1: I think getting in a way of her. Needy. However,
29:46
Speaker 1: you read their relationship, whereas Needy was like, no, I'm
29:49
Speaker 1: going after this band, So people kind of compared it
29:52
Speaker 1: to like it feels wrong to say hero perhaps, but
29:58
Speaker 1: she she kind of was being more focused on who
30:01
Speaker 1: did wrong and punishing wrong the actual people at the
30:05
Speaker 1: bottom of this as opposed to Jennifer, because I mean,
30:08
Speaker 1: you know that's I mean, we're getting into big conversations
30:11
Speaker 1: for this movie, but these dudes she killed may not
30:17
Speaker 1: as specifically participated, like misogyny and patriarchy hurts everybody. I
30:22
Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to say, Well, I mean it
30:25
Speaker 1: could be I guess where they if we're talking about
30:27
Speaker 1: the fact that women want to blame each other. So
30:30
Speaker 1: she's going after Needy and then things around Needy, and
30:32
Speaker 1: so she's kind of purposely punishing Needy, blaming her for
30:36
Speaker 1: her not liking who she is. Essentially in her mind
30:39
Speaker 1: like you're not accepting me because I told you the truth,
30:41
Speaker 1: and now you're doing this, I'm gonna gaslight you and
30:43
Speaker 1: then turn everyone against you instead of focusing on who
30:47
Speaker 1: really again, as desided that, Yeah, but still I wanted
30:52
Speaker 1: her to go eat one of them. I know, and
30:54
Speaker 1: I've only seen it twice and I had been a
30:57
Speaker 1: minute since I've seen it when I was researching for this,
31:01
Speaker 1: and I kept it. I couldn't remember. I was like,
31:03
Speaker 1: I thought, why is she not going for the band?
31:06
Speaker 1: Took bad? Right? I mean, yeah, I really wanted her too.
31:10
Speaker 1: He was right, they were right there. They were right there. Yeah. Yeah,
31:15
Speaker 1: And a lot of the themes in here too are like, yeah,
31:19
Speaker 1: the trauma and violence that a lot of people, but
31:23
Speaker 1: especially women or other marginalized groups are familiar with. So
31:26
Speaker 1: like when you do learn what happens to Jennifer, she
31:29
Speaker 1: had the memory where she like asked the band members
31:31
Speaker 1: if they're rapist and she's a really big fan, Like
31:34
Speaker 1: she's a really big fan of them, and she's trying
31:36
Speaker 1: to like get get a touch from them or like
31:39
Speaker 1: attention from them, and then they just brutalize her, specifically
31:43
Speaker 1: because she is a woman, and specifically because she's a
31:46
Speaker 1: woman they think is a virgin. And yeah, for most
31:50
Speaker 1: of the movie we Are Meant To, I think that
31:53
Speaker 1: a sexual assault happened. And as I said, a lot
31:59
Speaker 1: of boll have written about like how the band is
32:01
Speaker 1: laughing as they as Jennifer like pleads with them for
32:05
Speaker 1: mercy before they kill her from Constants Gradies article about
32:09
Speaker 1: over at Box about the movie Jennifer's pain is funny
32:11
Speaker 1: to these men. For them, it's all lark, but for
32:13
Speaker 1: her it's a moment of trauma that it's going to
32:15
Speaker 1: change her forever. And I think a lot of trauma
32:18
Speaker 1: people who have gone through trauma can relate to that.
32:20
Speaker 1: And that was something I remember struggling with for a
32:22
Speaker 1: long time where I couldn't decide if it would hurt more,
32:25
Speaker 1: if somebody would traumatized me like didn't remember or it
32:28
Speaker 1: wasn't a big deal to them, or if it was
32:31
Speaker 1: And like just that question can really hang on you.
32:36
Speaker 1: And yeah, the band profits from her pain and until
32:40
Speaker 1: they end, they get off without any consequences. In fact,
32:42
Speaker 1: they're loved and praised as heroes in the community and
32:46
Speaker 1: for something pretty ridiculous as well. I mean to sacrifice
32:50
Speaker 1: somebody for indie band fame. I don't want to dismiss
32:53
Speaker 1: anybody who's made it as an indie band, but it
32:56
Speaker 1: does seem like, really, man, you couldn't see seen any
33:00
Speaker 1: other way you had to kill this person. They said
33:03
Speaker 1: they couldn't. They literally were like, there's only two ways,
33:06
Speaker 1: and neither one of them was going to be like
33:08
Speaker 1: the way because it's past that prime. Because everybody was
33:12
Speaker 1: in the band, the idea that you can easily find
33:14
Speaker 1: one just like smack someone just by going down the street.
33:17
Speaker 1: You about an indie van, like how many women? How
33:19
Speaker 1: many young girls were like, I'm dating a dude from
33:21
Speaker 1: the band, like it's inevitable. Definitely dated a due from
33:25
Speaker 1: an email band right there. Oh did you? Yeah? I did.
33:29
Speaker 1: He wrote a song about me good ish No, but
33:34
Speaker 1: it wasn't mean about you. Another email band wrote a
33:37
Speaker 1: song about the fact of how he broke up with me.
33:41
Speaker 1: Oh whoa you gotta you got? I gotta hear these songs.
33:44
Speaker 1: That was bad. So one of the songs it wasn't
33:47
Speaker 1: necessarily about me, but he took a line I said
33:49
Speaker 1: to him and put it in there, and I was like,
33:51
Speaker 1: what the hell, no, just saying just saying so you know, yeah, well,
34:00
Speaker 1: I mean that's another idea, that's a commentary, but that's
34:02
Speaker 1: supposed to be like the like was a parody of
34:07
Speaker 1: this level of what the girls or what teenage girls
34:10
Speaker 1: wanted at that point in time. That's true, ye, well,
34:13
Speaker 1: and that that's interesting too, of what you said about
34:15
Speaker 1: like being past the prime, because that's something we've talked
34:18
Speaker 1: about with women in this industry as well. It's like,
34:21
Speaker 1: what's your thirties, Then it's too late, like you're you
34:24
Speaker 1: aged out. Whereas they were like, well, maybe we just
34:29
Speaker 1: have to kill a young woman or user pain and
34:31
Speaker 1: then we can be successful because she's completely disposable from
34:50
Speaker 1: Frederick Bill Kurt advice, He writes, Jennifer's body is similarly
34:54
Speaker 1: saying something quite a bit more profound than high school
34:57
Speaker 1: as hell or hell is a teenage girl in the
34:59
Speaker 1: words of Needy, which is there's no perfect victims, and
35:03
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter a popular main girl in a blackwater town,
35:06
Speaker 1: virginal or not drunk or not dressed, suggestively or not
35:10
Speaker 1: shouldn't be abducted and assaulted true story, yep, yep. And
35:16
Speaker 1: then yeah, how many people talked about just something we
35:18
Speaker 1: kind of talked about with the patriarchal distress stress disorder recently,
35:23
Speaker 1: and also collective trauma. People have said, like, maybe we
35:26
Speaker 1: can even look at the trauma of the patriarchy training
35:28
Speaker 1: women against each other and feeling all of that as
35:31
Speaker 1: a part of this movie. A lot of people have
35:33
Speaker 1: said it's like a revenge fantasy or a rape revenge
35:35
Speaker 1: movie in disguise, like it's got a very similar kind
35:39
Speaker 1: of setup, but it's made by women, so it's much
35:41
Speaker 1: less sexualized, um than those movies are in terms of
35:46
Speaker 1: those like very traumatic scenes, which I thought was interesting.
35:50
Speaker 1: And then we've also talked about virginity lately, you know,
35:54
Speaker 1: and the whole mess of history of prizing that and women. Yeah, so,
35:58
Speaker 1: so the band members are openly speculating whether Jennifer's a virgin,
36:02
Speaker 1: and it turns out her sexual experience kind of safe
36:04
Speaker 1: or as opposed to being the source of her punishment
36:06
Speaker 1: and death like in most horror movies where it's the
36:09
Speaker 1: virginity or being the virginal, and that means you'll survive,
36:12
Speaker 1: and this one she survived even though she did becoming
36:17
Speaker 1: because she became a demon. So Phili that has a
36:20
Speaker 1: commentary of like, oh, you're a slut. That means you're
36:22
Speaker 1: pretty much a demon, but you're still alive, Yes, sort
36:28
Speaker 1: of sort of. I just thought that was interesting because
36:32
Speaker 1: I haven't really thought about it. It is kind of
36:33
Speaker 1: a flip again this whole movie. Like you said, it's
36:36
Speaker 1: supposed to be tongue and Chee's very aware of the
36:39
Speaker 1: horror movie tropes and it's playing on them. But that
36:41
Speaker 1: is a twist from what we normally see in horror movies,
36:44
Speaker 1: where the final girl is usually the one that has
36:48
Speaker 1: not had any right And then, yeah, friendships are they're
36:53
Speaker 1: a big part of this movie. Um and toxic and
36:56
Speaker 1: self destructive friendships especially, I mean that's in reading the
37:00
Speaker 1: interviews with the creators, that was what the heart of
37:03
Speaker 1: this movie was, was their their friendship between Needy and Jennifer.
37:06
Speaker 1: I did like catch on two how especially Needy, which
37:12
Speaker 1: you know, the name, the nickname is pretty telling of
37:14
Speaker 1: a character. It's kind of like constantly trying to stop Jennifer,
37:19
Speaker 1: like kind of constantly trying to protect her or go
37:23
Speaker 1: after her, and Jennifer's kind of always like just beyond
37:26
Speaker 1: reach or whatever, which we felt very much to me,
37:29
Speaker 1: like trying to hold on in the face of change
37:33
Speaker 1: to this friendship and especially like Needy calls some sandbox friends.
37:37
Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, they've been friends from a young
37:38
Speaker 1: age and trying to hold on to that friendship even
37:41
Speaker 1: though it's evolving and maybe you have changed and maybe
37:44
Speaker 1: you weren't really suited or healthy friends in the first place,
37:48
Speaker 1: and especially not now. And I feel like we've talked
37:51
Speaker 1: about that recently too, of kind of that moment of
37:53
Speaker 1: being like, oh, you know, I've really tried to hold
37:55
Speaker 1: on this friendship, but maybe yeah, this is that talks
38:00
Speaker 1: friendship that we talked about, the abusive friendship that people
38:02
Speaker 1: need to get away from for sure, because there's nothing serving.
38:06
Speaker 1: And she gas lights her constantly to an abusive level
38:09
Speaker 1: um and guilds her into this abusive level. That's like,
38:11
Speaker 1: that's not cool. Yeah, yeah, And I mean their friendship
38:17
Speaker 1: is very very codependent, like I said, because I feel
38:20
Speaker 1: like in a lot of ways, Jennifer keeps Needy around
38:24
Speaker 1: because she's very insecure and wants that friend to make
38:29
Speaker 1: you feel better that you can put down and you
38:31
Speaker 1: can gas light and just sort of use in that
38:33
Speaker 1: way like you could say, oh, please come to me
38:35
Speaker 1: to do this. See this band you probably don't want
38:37
Speaker 1: anything to do. I want you to come and do it,
38:39
Speaker 1: and you're gonna come and do it because I'm cooler
38:41
Speaker 1: than you or like having that sort of dynamic. And
38:44
Speaker 1: then I mean, Needy is insecure as well. They're both
38:47
Speaker 1: very they're very core, depend on each other. They need
38:49
Speaker 1: each other for different reasons, and despite their increasingly unhealthy relationship,
38:53
Speaker 1: it is, at least from what we can see, the
38:56
Speaker 1: most important relationship in their lives, and at the heart
38:58
Speaker 1: of this movie. And I was thinking, and this might
39:04
Speaker 1: be I get really deep, as you know, so it
39:07
Speaker 1: might be not what was really intended, but the whole
39:09
Speaker 1: idea of the succubus, of like needing to feed on
39:12
Speaker 1: others to survive, needing to feed on people and weakest
39:16
Speaker 1: when you haven't like that whole idea kinds of kinds
39:19
Speaker 1: of sound like an insecure bullying person, like needing to
39:23
Speaker 1: feed on others to build yourself up and putting others
39:28
Speaker 1: down to make yourself feel better. And in that way,
39:31
Speaker 1: like who really is the Needy one? Mm hm m
39:35
Speaker 1: m yes that yeah, yeah, and then we couldn't not
39:42
Speaker 1: discuss this as as we've been alluding to, several people
39:45
Speaker 1: have done right ups on queer readings of this film. Um,
39:49
Speaker 1: and apparently the original screenplay included a sex seeing between
39:52
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Needy. I didn't get this, and I don't
39:55
Speaker 1: I never verified if this is what was actually intended.
39:58
Speaker 1: But Needy's last name is less Becky, some people less nicky,
40:02
Speaker 1: and some people were like, it's Needy Les like lesbian. Never, well,
40:10
Speaker 1: did you actually say it the Asian character who is
40:13
Speaker 1: always that Chope main character or a fan girl in
40:17
Speaker 1: the background. She says, uh, Needy Les kind of implies it,
40:23
Speaker 1: and yeah, uh huh. So this is the kind of
40:32
Speaker 1: thing I could go into in so much depth because
40:35
Speaker 1: people have gone into so much depth, but we will not.
40:39
Speaker 1: But I mean, there are a lot of I can
40:40
Speaker 1: definitely see the queer subjects for sure. There's a lot
40:44
Speaker 1: of like Jennifer Bareley keeping herself from eating Needy, of
40:47
Speaker 1: killing Needy's potential romantic interests, of Needy being really protective
40:50
Speaker 1: of Jennifer, which could be read in bultiple ways. Because
40:53
Speaker 1: I think the first time I saw it, I just
40:55
Speaker 1: assumed it was like jealousy wanted to keep Needy all
40:58
Speaker 1: to herself, So maybe I think I just kind of
41:01
Speaker 1: bypassed it. Obviously, the kiss was very obvious, and she's
41:04
Speaker 1: really like into it, Needy is more so than Megan is.
41:08
Speaker 1: Like you can see that Jennifer is using as a
41:10
Speaker 1: controlling mechanism as where Needy is falling into it because
41:14
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, oh my god, it's happening and
41:16
Speaker 1: she couldn't resist. But then like the scene where she
41:20
Speaker 1: holds her hand and the disappointment when she realizes that
41:24
Speaker 1: she's all infatuated this guy, and that was very I
41:27
Speaker 1: don't know, it didn't feel like sometimes this felt like text,
41:30
Speaker 1: like the actual being of this is where I started
41:33
Speaker 1: losing her, and this is where she starts seeing herself
41:35
Speaker 1: for the first time, because this is where she's disconnecting
41:38
Speaker 1: herself from her because she sees this infatuation, which is
41:42
Speaker 1: different from her having sex with other guys around town,
41:45
Speaker 1: right right. Yeah, And I'd forgotten about that as well,
41:48
Speaker 1: but a lot of people did point out the hand
41:50
Speaker 1: holding scene. Yeah, yeah, And and there are definitely like
41:55
Speaker 1: quotes throughout, like, as Jennifer says, I can go both ways.
41:59
Speaker 1: We can play boyfriend girlfriend like we used to the
42:01
Speaker 1: less a gay for called it needy butch and kind
42:04
Speaker 1: of going off what you said, Samantha. According to Cody,
42:06
Speaker 1: it kept the kiss in the script because she wanted
42:08
Speaker 1: to make clear that on some level, Needy was in
42:10
Speaker 1: love with Jennifer. So now she says she probably wouldn't
42:13
Speaker 1: have to include it because audience can pick up on
42:15
Speaker 1: queer subtext without her quote dropping an amble on them.
42:18
Speaker 1: So she did intend for this reading. And I will
42:21
Speaker 1: say what it feels like the queer bating is I
42:24
Speaker 1: feel the awkwardness of it all. You're like, oh god, yeah,
42:26
Speaker 1: this is just they just threw it in there because
42:28
Speaker 1: they want to be like, look, two girls kissing, but
42:30
Speaker 1: as where this one felt like, okay, that was actually
42:32
Speaker 1: really sexy and passionate. What just you know, like it
42:35
Speaker 1: felt honest in that. So good on the actresses for
42:40
Speaker 1: doing that, because it felt like I was like, oh damn,
42:41
Speaker 1: oh damn. Okay, yeah, yeah it was because I didn't
42:47
Speaker 1: know that was in there, which I say because apparently
42:50
Speaker 1: that was a huge deal when it first came out
42:52
Speaker 1: and I remember when I was watching it being surprised,
42:54
Speaker 1: but then like, okay, yeah, speaks sense. I mean, I
42:59
Speaker 1: think I don't want to be like everyone. But what
43:02
Speaker 1: I that's greg if I would have those moments of
43:05
Speaker 1: like sexual tension between friends where were just kind of
43:08
Speaker 1: like what is this moment and what are these feelings?
43:12
Speaker 1: And I'm not really sure what they are? And I think,
43:16
Speaker 1: um many have written about how this is um by representation.
43:24
Speaker 1: This is a case of by representation and Jennifer kind
43:28
Speaker 1: of being by and I guess, I guess I never
43:33
Speaker 1: really picked up on, like, you know, when the goth
43:37
Speaker 1: Emo kids, she kills him because well it seems like
43:40
Speaker 1: she kills him because Needy was like he's cool, don't
43:43
Speaker 1: you mean, like okay? And then Chip of course has
43:47
Speaker 1: got to go. It's gotta go. I know. As we've
43:53
Speaker 1: discussed about many times worse queer baiting, some people had
43:57
Speaker 1: problems with the saying this was exactly what this is
44:00
Speaker 1: is like atuitous again for the male gaze essentially, But
44:04
Speaker 1: if we're looking at this movie as what we're saying,
44:06
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek parody, they may have done that in
44:08
Speaker 1: that aspect of good over yourself because the acting was
44:12
Speaker 1: so good that it didn't feel that way. So it's
44:15
Speaker 1: another again slap in the face of like, no, this
44:17
Speaker 1: is it for you. This is for the women who
44:19
Speaker 1: felt this tension. This is for the women that's like, wait,
44:22
Speaker 1: am I have an awakening moment of realizing I too
44:25
Speaker 1: am attracted to this woman? Like that's what it was
44:27
Speaker 1: for more so than that. So but I can absolutely
44:30
Speaker 1: see if it's the context of the way it was marketed.
44:32
Speaker 1: If that's what you know, then yes, it's definitely good
44:35
Speaker 1: to it is and just over the top like, oh,
44:37
Speaker 1: come on, this is just cheap entertainment for men to
44:40
Speaker 1: you know, do bad things too. Well. Yeah, and I
44:45
Speaker 1: think that was so key and a lot of what
44:47
Speaker 1: like Cody has written about was like it was women
44:51
Speaker 1: making it and it was for women. And I also
44:55
Speaker 1: thought the scene was really well acted and I thought
44:56
Speaker 1: it was really powerful because I did buy it. I
44:59
Speaker 1: was like, even if they have very unhealthy relationship, I
45:02
Speaker 1: buy that they care about each other and on some
45:04
Speaker 1: level of each other, and it does feel like real
45:07
Speaker 1: um the emotion there. But Cody said like, if a
45:10
Speaker 1: van had been doing this, it wouldn't have worked like
45:15
Speaker 1: it would have been different. And yeah, when it first
45:17
Speaker 1: came out, because of those the terrible marketing behind it,
45:21
Speaker 1: people did say that it was exportative. It was a
45:24
Speaker 1: huge deal. It was like in write ups or people
45:27
Speaker 1: were like, oh, it's a gratuitous lesbian makeout session. That's
45:29
Speaker 1: from Salon. I believe it was a woman who wrote
45:31
Speaker 1: that a cheap attempt to titillate the audience, particularly when
45:34
Speaker 1: as no real context or reason for being It doesn't
45:37
Speaker 1: matter if there's a man or woman behind the camera.
45:39
Speaker 1: That's from that same review. So it does feel like,
45:44
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe people were just primed to misunderstand
45:47
Speaker 1: it for a lot of reasons or are I don't
45:51
Speaker 1: know if that's the correct way to say it, but
45:53
Speaker 1: going in expecting something completely different and being so used
45:57
Speaker 1: to horror movies do week that kind of thing, right,
46:02
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, that marketing that, yeah, it is bad.
46:10
Speaker 1: And so I know, like one of the posters, I
46:12
Speaker 1: will in those articles that they showed as an example
46:14
Speaker 1: of what the marketing team was doing. If I hadn't
46:16
Speaker 1: seen that, I've never seen it until this week when
46:19
Speaker 1: we were researching stuff, I would not have watched it either.
46:24
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, because it felt like it's going to
46:26
Speaker 1: be some Jennifer having a bunch of sex and being
46:31
Speaker 1: ogled a lot. Right, it's a direct commentary on that,
46:36
Speaker 1: like right, but yeah, if you haven't seen the poster listeners,
46:40
Speaker 1: it's like, I think you're talking about where she's sitting
46:42
Speaker 1: in the desk and her legs are like spread and
46:45
Speaker 1: cleavage is perfectly and she's like partially open mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
46:50
Speaker 1: it's it's really bad news. And that is a part
46:55
Speaker 1: of this whole conversation as well. It's kind of like
46:57
Speaker 1: what they were commenting on ended up hurting them, hurting
47:01
Speaker 1: them and hurting the movie too. I am glad it
47:04
Speaker 1: is getting some of the attention I feel like it
47:08
Speaker 1: deserves and people are really in love with it and
47:10
Speaker 1: writing about it and all this stuff. But it is,
47:12
Speaker 1: like Cody said, like upsetting because if it had caught on,
47:16
Speaker 1: then other movies could have been made, and right, that
47:21
Speaker 1: is frustrating, so frustrating. Clearly, we're we're fans, highly recommend
47:26
Speaker 1: you have and as we like to say, fall is coming,
47:30
Speaker 1: meaning it is Halloween season coming soon, so more movies
47:33
Speaker 1: like please please, yes, if you have any suggestions for
47:37
Speaker 1: those movies that we should focus on these emails. You
47:41
Speaker 1: can reach u at Stephanie and mom Stuff that I
47:43
Speaker 1: Hurt mea dot com. You can find us on Twitter
47:45
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram. And Stuff I've
47:47
Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks, It's always to our super producer Christina,
47:50
Speaker 1: one of the best. Yes, and thanks to you for
47:53
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