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Drew Crowson and the Parish Model Approach to Church Planting · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
0:50
with the Reverend Nandra Kraussen.
0:53
Father Drew is just getting started as a
0:55
church planter here in the Episcopal Diocese of
0:58
Dallas. His experience before this
1:01
was in young adult and youth ministry
1:04
in locations from Dallas to
1:06
Dusseldorf, Germany, an oil compound
1:09
in the Middle east, and Auburn, Alabama.
1:12
He was deeply formed by the early Aughts
1:14
emergent church movement, but pushed
1:17
deeper into Jesus through the journey and was
1:20
led into the Anglican tradition. He is
1:22
married to an incredible woman, and together they have three
1:25
little kids who daily remind them of their
1:28
incomplete sanctification. A
1:31
reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:34
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
1:37
leave a review and share Future Christian with
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1:43
and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
1:46
us an email@, uh,
1:47
laurensonatemediapro.com
1:51
with comments, questions, or ideas for
1:54
future episodes. We appreciate your
1:56
voice in how we faithfully discern the
1:59
future of the church.
2:09
>> Loren: All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name is Loren
2:12
Richmond, Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined today by Drew
2:15
Croson. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
2:19
>> Speaker D: Of course. Thank you for pronouncing my name correctly.
2:22
>> Loren: Yeah, I just realized, like, I did not ask you about that, and that was a
2:25
total guess, so I'm glad.
2:25
>> Speaker D: I got it right.
2:27
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, anything else you want
2:29
listeners to know about you?
2:31
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I'm. I'm an Episcopal priest in the
2:34
Diocese of Dallas planting a church, which is
2:37
kind of a crazy. A crazy endeavor. I'm learning
2:40
more and more how crazy it is every week. But, yeah,
2:43
I am, uh, if you know anybody in Salina,
2:46
Texas, I am happy to get coffee with whoever and
2:49
whomever you know.
2:51
>> Loren: Yeah, love the hustle there. Uh, share, if you would,
2:54
kind of about your faith background and journey, what that looks like.
2:57
Ah, past and what it looks like today.
2:58
>> Speaker D: Yeah, so I grew up in the piney
3:01
woods of East Texas. I
3:04
grew up Baptist. As many people in that area of the world
3:07
do and felt
3:10
called um, to seminary
3:13
through working at a camp that I was working at. And then like
3:16
kind of the grief and trauma of losing my dad at
3:19
21 kind of led me through that. I went to college to be
3:21
a sports talk radio host initially. So then
3:25
the call to be go into ministry
3:28
was kind of drastic for me. I went
3:31
to seminary initially at Denver Seminary. It's my
3:33
first, okay, first master's degree, uh, from
3:36
Denver Seminary. I uh, graduated
3:39
from there with a degree in Christian Spiritual formation.
3:43
That degree, the teachings of Dallas
3:45
Willard, um, a lot of the readings
3:48
that I did there began opening my
3:52
mind and my
3:55
ideas of the faith to other
3:57
streams of the Christian faith, including
3:59
Anglicanism. Um, I remember getting a copy of
4:02
a Book of Common Prayer from a professor and being
4:05
kind of astounded at the depth of it
4:08
and the fact and kind of the disappointment that I didn't know that this
4:11
existed. And I'd been a Christian Right. My whole life.
4:13
>> Loren: Right.
4:14
>> Speaker D: And morning and evening prayer became
4:17
an important thing for me still are.
4:20
I was a missionary overseas. I worked for young
4:23
life for a tiny bit. I worked for
4:26
youth for Christ, which is a lot like young life.
4:30
I worked with English speaking kids
4:33
and their parents, like what they call third culture kids.
4:36
I think yesterday was International third culture Kid Day.
4:39
So I worked with uh, those kinds of kids. Kids whose
4:42
moms and dads live outside of their own passport
4:45
country and have taken them in. So these
4:48
are kids who have a very unique experience and a
4:51
unique outlook on life. Um, I got
4:53
married, I have three kids. We live now
4:56
in North Texas in
4:59
what is the fastest growing city in the country
5:02
or one of them, Salina. And that's where
5:05
we're trying to put a church. I became
5:07
Episcopalian along the way.
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>> Loren: That was, yeah, along the way somewhere.
5:10
>> Speaker D: Yada yada yada.
5:12
>> Loren: Well, so much interesting stuff to dive into,
5:15
share if you would. Just anything you want. I mean, you
5:18
mentioned the Book of Common Prayers. Maybe
5:21
let's talk through that. Like how again, I grew up
5:24
Baptist and I think even to me, like the Book of Common Prayers is still kind
5:27
of a mystery to me. But it seems like
5:30
in these non liturgical settings,
5:33
contexts, traditions folks are
5:36
finding.
5:36
>> Speaker D: More.
5:38
>> Loren: Appetite for these liturgical practices. What
5:41
do you think it is about like the Book of Common Prayers that really resonates with,
5:44
with you and with others, you think?
5:46
>> Speaker D: Uh, for me it was growing up
5:49
Baptist and then living overseas,
5:52
um, and interacting with churches kind of all over
5:55
the world.
5:56
>> Loren: Mhm.
5:57
>> Speaker D: Um, there was this disparity in
5:59
quality of liturgy. In the churches.
6:02
Just like, I mean, every church has a liturgy, so the
6:05
goings on of the church service, there was a
6:08
disparity in the quality and how they were doing it. And it was all hit or
6:11
miss. And you walk into a service and then it always kind of came down
6:14
to the pastor, like, how good is this sermon going
6:17
to be? Because that's really all we're going to judge this on.
6:20
And even when I was in seminary, I knew
6:23
the people that I was in seminary with, and I liked those people. But
6:26
I also thought, like, I really don't know if
6:29
this is who we should be trusting the future of evangelicalism to.
6:33
Um, and
6:36
the, what they call the anonymity of
6:39
the caller initially is what
6:42
was what drew me in further, the fact that when I was
6:45
overseas and would walk into a Church of England parish or
6:48
a Anglican parish, wherever in the world,
6:51
um, Middle East, North Africa,
6:53
um, England, Germany,
6:56
it was kind of. There was this similarity.
7:00
There was a rhythm. Uh, you could, you could find
7:02
yourself in the part of the service, you knew where
7:05
you were, and I
7:08
really loved that. And the idea that, like, okay, the pastor, the
7:11
priest could leave because they died or got old
7:14
or whatever, and the church is not
7:17
gonna go away. And no one even asked that
7:20
question. Yeah, it's just, who's the next priest gonna
7:23
be? Um, to me, that was such a.
7:27
A change and a refreshing change. It wasn't this,
7:30
like, a new priest coming into this church
7:33
or leaving the church wasn't this
7:35
foundational problem, um, with the parish.
7:38
But instead, it was just another thing that happened, breathing, uh,
7:41
in and breathing out. I, I really.
7:44
That struck me. And
7:47
then, like, we. I think, you know, I've written about this
7:50
extensively, but, like, my experience through the emerging
7:52
church movement led me deeper into
7:57
exploring how Christianity has been done
8:01
for a longer period of time and trying to be, like, true to the
8:04
historic faith. But also, you know, back then, early
8:07
2000s, it was all about being authentic,
8:10
being authentic and finding some real expression.
8:13
Um, and Anglicanism
8:16
fit that well for me,
8:19
without completely dismantling
8:22
faith and losing sight of Jesus.
8:25
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is good stuff.
8:28
You know, it's funny, you mentioned, like, the leadership transition.
8:31
Like, you know, I imagine similar.
8:34
You similar. Like, I listen to a lot of, like,
8:36
evangelical kind of church revitalization,
8:39
you know. Carrie Newhoff Ranger
8:42
like, leadership transition is such an
8:44
obsession, and for good reason. Like, you've got to get
8:47
the next good leader in there, or else, like,
8:50
the next pastor can really tank your church. Like, I've seen it
8:53
happen. Even in my own, even in
8:56
where I live, in churches around here. But like you said, like, when it's
8:59
not about like just the pastor, like,
9:02
wow, does that make a difference?
9:04
>> Speaker D: No, it's true. And uh, like, you know, it's a
9:07
bit of a generalization. Like it does.
9:08
>> Loren: Right. Obviously it matters.
9:10
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
9:11
>> Loren: Like, obviously it matters. Like you get the wrong leader and they're, and they're just
9:14
like terrible. Like that makes a difference. But I think the
9:16
broader point you're trying to make is like, it's not just
9:19
dependent solely upon like the quality or
9:22
personality or charisma of the leader.
9:24
>> Speaker D: Right. And it's something that we lost
9:27
as Christianity has evolved into a
9:30
less denominational alignment.
9:32
>> Loren: Right, right.
9:33
>> Speaker D: We, we are kind of losing that.
9:35
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:35
>> Speaker D: Um, people, when they move to town
9:38
are just going to whatever church.
9:40
>> Loren: Yep.
9:41
>> Speaker D: Is the best quality or they're not going church at all.
9:45
As opposed to being like, I'm an Episcopalian, so I'm going to find the closest
9:47
Episcopal church, which I think nobody is doing that
9:50
anymore.
9:51
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm a great example.
9:54
Like, I, uh, don't know if I
9:57
guess I've admitted this in public. I am ordained Disciples
10:00
of Christ and I attend a United Methodist church because I feel like
10:03
it's the best for my family.
10:04
>> Speaker D: Right.
10:05
>> Loren: And it is what it is,
10:08
so.
10:09
Well, we're already getting into some interesting conversation and
10:12
I don't want to take time away from what I want to talk about here.
10:15
And that's, I think the biggest, most exciting thing to me is
10:18
I'm, um, someone who's started a church in the
10:21
mainline world and I'm very much interested in the future of
10:24
the mainline Protestant context.
10:27
So you're starting a church and I think the biggest question
10:30
is why start a church?
10:33
What kind of compelled you? I think conversely,
10:36
the question could be asked, and I'm sure you've been asked this,
10:39
why did you think about a new church rather than
10:41
revitalization of an existing
10:44
church? Uh, what about the community that you're in that you
10:47
want to start in? So it's a lot there, but feel free to run.
10:50
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So there's I, there's two answers to why
10:53
it's important to plant the church in Salina,
10:55
Texas. And one is kind of the, the
10:58
more nuts and bolts
11:01
reasoning and the other is the more like grace filled
11:03
gospel, uh, reasoning.
11:06
Um, the first is that
11:09
800 people a month move to this town. It's the
11:12
fastest, like I said, it's the fastest growing city in the United States.
11:15
It is, it is rapidly
11:18
expanding. And it started out very small. So
11:22
just a few years ago, uh,
11:24
2018 or so, there were less than
11:27
50,000, less than 20,000 people in town.
11:31
And now we're well into the
11:34
70,000 people in town range,
11:37
um, last I read. But
11:40
that number is going to continue to grow at the Internet. The
11:43
independent. The school district is
11:46
going to triple in size in the next 10 years. So
11:48
people are moving to town with families. There has
11:51
never been an Episcopal church in this town.
11:54
There's never been a Roman Catholic church in this town. This
11:57
is Baptist country, um, through and
12:00
through. And so there is no church for me to
12:03
revitalize in Salina. There's never been
12:06
one. And so the, ah, there is a,
12:09
the nuts and bolts reasoning would be because there needs to be
12:12
an Episcopal church in a town this size. It,
12:15
it behooves us as a denomination to
12:18
be here, um, as people move in
12:20
and as young families come and
12:24
potential members move, um, to town.
12:27
The other reason is, you know, God is
12:30
bringing people into this area and I'm already
12:33
here and it's much cheaper to send me here than it would be to send me anywhere
12:36
else. I already live here. So putting a church
12:38
up to share the gospel with folks, to
12:41
tell people their sins are forgiven as they move to town
12:44
is what we are called to do as
12:47
ordained ministers. So planting a church
12:50
in Salina is an outgrowth of the
12:52
gospel. And as God is moving in our
12:55
diocese were continuing to go up. The two
12:58
most recent successful church plants, or the three
13:01
most recent successful church plants in
13:04
our diocese have come since the year
13:06
2000.
13:08
>> Loren: Mhm.
13:08
>> Speaker D: And all three are kind of moving up
13:11
north, you know, From Dallas
13:14
to McKinney and Frisco to prosper and
13:17
now us in Salina. So we're,
13:19
we just keep on going north.
13:21
>> Loren: Interesting.
13:23
So how we got connected is I wrote a
13:26
substack about kind of this idea.
13:29
What I was, uh, thinking was the future of the church, of
13:31
this parish model or community hub model.
13:34
And I think you found it and were like, hey, this is what I'm trying to do
13:37
in Texas. And I was like, dude, that's awesome.
13:40
So I guess talk more about how
13:43
your kind of model for church planning is going to look like
13:46
and what your vision behind that is.
13:48
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So I am
13:51
firm believer that the parish model is
13:54
the thing that's going to outlast everything else. It's going to, I think it's
13:57
going to outlast the attractional church. It's going to
14:00
outlast A lot of these other things. Yeah, because
14:03
it takes really seriously the idea of
14:05
loving our neighbors as ourselves, including our next door
14:08
neighbors. So loving the people who share a fence with me.
14:11
Um, like I love myself. And I think a parish
14:14
model that, like the old
14:17
parish in England or the
14:20
UK where the priest of the
14:22
village saw the entire parish as his parish
14:25
whether they attend their church or not.
14:29
>> Loren: Mhm.
14:29
>> Speaker D: I think is the model. So for me that involves
14:32
me finding ways to be intimately involved with this
14:35
community. Whether it's going to city council meetings,
14:38
attending arts council dialogues,
14:40
hanging out at the downtown local coffee shop in a collar
14:44
to just talk to regular people who don't go to my church.
14:47
Because I view every single citizen of Salina
14:50
as my parishioner, whether I ever
14:52
administer communion to them or not.
14:56
Yeah, that's what the city needs
14:59
is a uh, is a church that's for the city as opposed to a
15:02
church that's trying to get things or benefit from being
15:05
in Salina. We need a church where Salina
15:08
benefits because I'm there and the parish
15:11
model provides that. It also
15:13
provides in a city like Salina, that's suburb.
15:16
It's growing quickly. It's never had a
15:19
robust or vibrant cultural uh,
15:22
hub, uh, because it's never had that many people.
15:26
Providing a place where artists, visual artists,
15:28
musicians and all that can meet and gather and
15:31
share ideas, um, in a safe and
15:34
welcoming environment I think is important and, and
15:37
benefits the city as well. Like being a cultural hub that
15:40
hosts concerts and, and is
15:42
able to give something back to the
15:45
town. We also part of the parish model
15:48
for me involves a school.
15:51
Um, forever Anglican
15:54
churches have had schools and been part of education. So
15:58
up here the public schools are amazing.
16:00
We're not trying to compete with public schools.
16:03
We're going to provide childcare
16:06
preschools from from 2 years
16:09
old up to 4. Uh, that's where we're going
16:11
to find parents and families that need somebody
16:14
to watch their kids, provide
16:17
Christian education and get their kids prepared to go to
16:20
the great public schools. And again
16:23
a value add. Seeing those people whose kids go to my
16:26
preschool as my parishioner, whether they attend
16:29
a Sunday service or not is part of my role as a
16:31
parish priest.
16:33
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's so great. And this
16:36
is something like a bigger project I'm um, working on. I really think
16:39
childcare, like it's not a silver bullet obviously
16:43
and obviously context and space and all
16:46
that matters. But like I've
16:48
seen it done very well. Like shout out
16:51
to Sandy Dillon,
16:54
former colleague and pastor of Mine at Wash Park,
16:57
UMC was so good
17:00
at connecting with these families. Families
17:03
at the church preschool. And what would
17:06
inevitably happen was these families would
17:09
get connected with the church and be like, or excuse me, with the
17:12
preschool and then be like, oh, I guess we want to go to
17:15
church. And well, we know this pastor, we know this
17:18
church. And boom, bang, boom. And again,
17:21
I'm sure like Drew, you're not doing this just because like, hey, we want
17:24
this to be a pure like on ramp. But it
17:27
inevitably becomes that like, I don't.
17:30
>> Speaker D: No, there's a great way. There's an, there's absolutely.
17:33
I mean it's an on ramp to getting people into the door,
17:36
to realizing that Episcopalianism is weird. I mean in a place
17:39
where there's no Episcopal church.
17:41
>> Loren: Right.
17:42
>> Speaker D: It, it is a benefit to have something where
17:45
you are, you know.
17:46
>> Loren: Yes.
17:46
>> Speaker D: Potential new member facing side door. Right.
17:49
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
17:50
>> Speaker D: And, and then the, you know, uh, the church I work at in
17:52
Prosper has a preschool
17:55
and it is, it has been a massive outreach tool for
17:58
us. So many people who don't have a church
18:01
home, whose kids love our school.
18:04
>> Loren: Mhm.
18:05
>> Speaker D: End up coming to our services. And that's a lot of Easter
18:08
service people. I don't know if we're anywhere going
18:10
Easter. My kid loves this school. I'm going to go to his school
18:13
on Easter. And you know, it's, it's
18:16
a no brainer for us. We can show people that we love your kids,
18:19
we love your family, we're not a weirdo.
18:22
Um, come on, come and hear the good news.
18:26
>> Loren: Okay, let's talk this then, like, and
18:31
let's try to tread lightly, I suppose.
18:32
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
18:34
>> Loren: Navigating the mainline culture as a
18:37
new church starter, especially someone from,
18:40
not a, uh, lifelong
18:42
mainliner, not lifelong Episcopalian.
18:45
This was a challenge that I feel like I had to
18:48
navigate sometimes more
18:50
successfully than other times. But you know,
18:53
in a judicatory that
18:57
like the Episcopalians, like other
19:00
mainline Protestant denominations, like they've done things
19:02
one way or another for a long time and church
19:05
planting in many mainline Protestant groups has not
19:08
been, uh, a priority the last 20, 30 years. Like
19:12
talk through that. What does that look like for you?
19:15
>> Speaker D: No, it's interesting. And like, and like you mentioned, like.
19:17
Yeah, just coming from outside of this denomination,
19:20
coming from a place where like church planting was very much normal
19:24
and you kind of people just kind of had a
19:27
language and a vocabulary for is,
19:30
is very interesting how much
19:32
I'm learning that people don't know,
19:36
um, within the, within this tribe
19:39
and why Would they? Like, we planted a ton of
19:42
churches a hundred years ago and they're, and they're doing really
19:44
well, but no one remembers when they were
19:47
planted.
19:48
>> Loren: Right.
19:49
>> Speaker D: They got beautiful buildings, they've got an endowment, they're doing
19:52
great. And we don't remember who started
19:55
it or when that happened.
19:56
>> Loren: Mhm.
19:57
>> Speaker D: And so for a lot of people,
20:01
the idea of just like putting out a sign that says the Episcopal
20:04
Church welcomes you in front of a brand new building,
20:07
that's how you plant a church.
20:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:09
>> Speaker D: But like, no one's gonna come.
20:12
Like, I, I think that's
20:14
the, that's the bit that is difficult to describe. Like if I
20:17
just.
20:18
>> Loren: Oh, uh, we just go. It's so hard for some people to
20:21
grasp.
20:22
>> Speaker D: Like if I just go buy some building
20:24
and put a sign out front and say, hey, we're having an Episcopal Church service
20:27
on Sunday. It's gonna be me and my wife and kids,
20:30
like, yeah.
20:31
>> Loren: Ah.
20:32
>> Speaker D: But the hard work of
20:35
meeting people or of taking or of or
20:38
of or of asking people at other churches
20:41
who live in my town, hey, would you be willing,
20:44
are you feeling called to help me come and start this in. In
20:47
our town?
20:48
>> Loren: Mhm.
20:48
>> Speaker D: That's been a difficult kind of sell for some
20:51
people. And you're kind of, um. I'm watching people as they're
20:54
bristling because they're, their conceptions of what this looks like
20:57
are being challenged.
20:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:59
>> Speaker D: But I'm having to kind of say, look, um, I'm not stealing
21:02
from people. This is, this is
21:05
our ecclesial model. Like.
21:07
>> Loren: Right.
21:08
>> Speaker D: We try to put churches close to where people live so you don't
21:10
have to drive past six Episcopal churches to go to the
21:13
one you like. So that's
21:16
what we're trying to do. So I'm, I am hoping
21:19
to educate, but also at the same time be educated
21:22
because I don't know a lot. And I, and I
21:25
have been running, running into the bumpers on the, on the
21:28
bowling lane, on how to, how to get
21:31
down there, how to figure out how to
21:33
navigate this culture that I've, I'm still somewhat
21:36
new to.
21:37
>> Loren: Yeah. How, how long have you been in the Episcopal world again?
21:40
>> Speaker D: Yeah, so I've been working in the episcopal world
21:44
since 2020. I've been
21:47
a, uh, confirmed Episcopalian since 21,
21:50
and I've been ordained
21:54
since 23, but I have a degree in
21:57
Anglican studies that I got somewhere there too,
22:00
and from Wycliffe in Toronto. And so
22:02
I now know a lot more than I did. But I'm still learning a
22:05
Ton more.
22:06
>> Loren: Does this. Is this, like, a thing in Episcopal world where people will
22:09
be like, oh, I'm first generation, or I'm third generation
22:12
or fifth generation or fourth generation. Yeah,
22:15
Episcopal. And, uh, let me say this.
22:19
I won't say this for you, Drew. You can just,
22:22
you know, you can, uh, you can, uh, agree or not disagree.
22:25
That's up to you. Like, I'm going to say this to mainliners. I've said this
22:27
before. Like, don't ever say in
22:30
your church what generation mainliner you
22:33
are. It's just, like, the giant, biggest turnoff.
22:36
Anybody who's not a part of your tradition
22:39
ever, and I'm sorry to be harsh, but, like, just
22:41
don't do it ever.
22:44
>> Speaker D: It's an interesting thing people do, and
22:46
it's. It kind of mirrors, like, up here,
22:50
since we're growing so quickly, we're
22:52
changing, the city is changing so rapidly. And
22:55
so you see a lot of people do the same thing about you. Uh, know, I've
22:58
been in Salina since 91. My granddad's
23:01
from here, and I have, like, the local bumper stickers and stuff. And so
23:04
you're just trying to, like, gatekeep or
23:07
other. Anybody you possibly can in order to make yourself
23:10
feel better.
23:11
>> Loren: Colorado does it. Because Colorado has been a big thing with,
23:14
like, native. And it's like, hoof. I. I
23:17
don't want to spend.
23:18
>> Speaker D: There's specialized license plates. If you're, like, a descendant of
23:21
the pioneer something.
23:22
>> Loren: It's. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it is
23:25
ridiculous. Um, it's like, hey,
23:28
obviously, we could end. We could leave this point in this. Like, we
23:30
know many, uh, people who have those
23:33
pioneer license plates were not the first people in
23:36
this part of the world. Right. We know there's
23:39
indigenous people who were there before
23:42
us. Uh, so at least we could say that.
23:44
>> Speaker D: But no, it's interesting you bring this up because, like, I am,
23:47
um. I'm running into two different cultures.
23:50
So I am. I am fighting a culture. Not fighting.
23:53
I'm learning and butting up against a culture that doesn't have much,
23:57
uh, exposure to church planting. And then I'm doing the
23:59
same thing with a culture that's zero exposure to the
24:02
main line. So.
24:06
So I am, in one hand explaining what a church plant is to a group of
24:08
people, and on the other hand, explaining what it is to be
24:11
Anglican or Episcopalian to the other group of
24:14
people. Um, and both are difficult,
24:16
but both have, you know, a little bit of nuance and
24:19
fun, because the people that I'm explaining church plant to
24:23
up here, they know. They understand that there's other
24:26
church plants going in. And Salina. Right. You know.
24:29
>> Loren: Right.
24:29
>> Speaker D: They. The church they go to used to be a church plant,
24:32
but, like, they don't know what I'm doing or what an
24:35
Episcopal priest is. Um, and our church in
24:37
Prosper has so few what we call
24:40
cradle Episcopalians. It's.
24:43
We don't have really the. I've been Episcopalian for three
24:46
generations at our church. Just because nobody
24:48
up here, like, everybody comes to our church comes from some
24:51
other stream. That's just
24:55
the nature of it up here.
24:57
>> Loren: Let me ask this. When I was doing, like, you know,
25:00
uh, farmers markets and, you know, any kind of tabling,
25:03
I could get to meet people, they always want to know, like, are you Christian or
25:05
Catholic? And it was easy for me. I could just be
25:08
like, oh, I'm Christian. Like, literally,
25:11
that's in. In my denomination's name.
25:13
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
25:14
>> Loren: I didn't necessarily go and spill the whole, like,
25:16
denominational full name and. And stuff. But
25:19
I also don't want to overwhelm people. Like, how do you. How do you handle that?
25:22
Because what's. Like, what are the. What do people, like, want to know when
25:25
you're like, oh, you're leading a new church? Tell me about that.
25:28
>> Speaker D: Yeah, there's a couple of. Of interesting questions I get,
25:30
and I kind of expect them and can kind of
25:33
understand what they really mean by how they ask
25:36
them.
25:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:37
>> Speaker D: Um, but, you know, I get asked a lot
25:40
about the new pope, which is great.
25:43
Okay. Like, I've gotten. I'll be out and about
25:45
in my collar, and somebody will say, what do you think about the new Pope?
25:48
And I'll. And I'll be like, well, he's not mine.
25:51
Yeah, but I think he's probably great. And. And then that
25:54
leads into another conversation of, like, what do you mean he's not your
25:57
Pope? We don't have a Pope. There was a
26:00
whole thing about it, um, in the
26:02
1500s, and
26:05
we. I can kind of explain it, but that. Then people will say,
26:08
what is Episcopalianism? Um, is it just Catholic light?
26:10
Is it just, um. What does it mean?
26:14
Are you Protestant and. Yes, I'm Protestant. I'm as Protestant as
26:17
you guys are at your Baptist church, if not more
26:19
so. And, you know,
26:23
people will ask a lot of those kinds of questions.
26:26
What kind of church are, uh, you. What does your church believe?
26:29
Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe in Jesus?
26:32
Those are the questions people will ask. And all those I'm happy to.
26:35
Happy to answer. And happy to have good conversations
26:38
with, um, somebody. I had a
26:41
girl at a coffee shop last week, two weeks ago, ask
26:44
me, is your church all about
26:46
trying to get people to be better people and do good stuff?
26:50
And I was like, oh, absolutely not.
26:52
Mhm. I was like, our church is a hundred percent not about that.
26:55
And she like kind of took a step back. She's like, we need more people to be
26:58
good people. We absolutely do. But we are under no
27:01
illusion that trying to be good people is
27:04
in any way beneficiary to people.
27:06
In fact, we. I want to tell you about Jesus and
27:09
it was wonderful. Um, she was like, oh,
27:12
okay, this sounds really cool. So I like wrote her name down. It's
27:15
really great. And
27:18
people just. When you have a collar on at the
27:21
coffee shop.
27:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
27:23
>> Speaker D: And then you have a regular. Yeah. You have get some stairs. And
27:26
then you get people who just approach you and talk.
27:28
And then when you want to have a small talk conversation with
27:31
them, it really takes them aback because they're like, wait a minute.
27:34
Uh, I thought we were going to talk about Jesus. Yeah, you want
27:37
to talk about the cowboys. So,
27:40
uh, yeah, it's really great. It's
27:43
a really great evangelistic tool that I, I mean, I. But doing Young
27:46
life, I. This doesn't feel unnatural to
27:49
me. Is going out and chatting.
27:51
>> Loren: Sure. Um, gosh, what was I going to ask
27:54
you something about that?
27:55
Anyway, let's, let's move on to
27:58
funding because don't, uh, feel like you need to
28:01
give direct specifics on money
28:04
and whatever. But like, I know. Oh, I
28:07
was going to give a shout to my Anglican co host, Martha Tatarnic, who's working
28:10
on a book on Anne Boleyn, who had something,
28:13
something to do with all this. Why you're not casting,
28:16
why we don't have a book.
28:17
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
28:17
>> Loren: Right. Um, so shout out to Martha.
28:21
Let's talk funding and the challenges just of kind
28:24
of paying for it. So you don't need to give. Feel
28:27
free to share what you're comfortable feeling. Sharing. But
28:30
like, what is, how is this going to work?
28:33
>> Speaker D: I'm. I am overwhelmed
28:36
with how blessed I am with the
28:39
support the Diocese of Dallas is giving me.
28:42
Um, overwhelmed and also kind of like challenged by it. Like
28:45
it really is kind of a. Hey, look, you got a lot of people behind
28:48
you on this deal. Don't mess it up.
28:51
Um, but the Diocese of Dallas is helping
28:54
by acquiring land,
28:57
um, so that a piece of property will eventually
29:00
be purchased that hopefully
29:03
the church will be put on, which is a huge.
29:06
I mean, that's a huge piece up here. The land is
29:09
kind of growing. I see. I keep saying up here
29:11
everything in Salina is considered up because of the
29:14
geographic gravity of Dallas. So we're all just okay.
29:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:18
>> Speaker D: Uh, we
29:22
are having property purchased for us which I
29:25
know as a church planter is like
29:27
incredible.
29:28
>> Loren: Yeah, it's a big deal.
29:29
>> Speaker D: It's a big deal. The funding for the building
29:32
eventually will hopefully come from the school.
29:35
So that's part of the reason for starting a preschool is that it's a, it is
29:38
a profit maker.
29:40
>> Loren: Right.
29:41
>> Speaker D: To help fund a church plant that is
29:46
not uh, going to be able to afford a building on its own for most
29:49
likely a very long time.
29:50
>> Loren: Mhm.
29:51
>> Speaker D: And so funding for that will come from the school, will
29:54
hopefully come from um, a capital campaign
29:58
from the core team that I'm assembling. Some of
30:01
that will go in there as well, maybe some from the diocese as well.
30:04
We're still working on grants and things like that to hopefully
30:06
get money to help build the school that then the school
30:09
can help pay for
30:12
the building that the church can meet in. That's kind of
30:15
the financial structure I've got worked out right now.
30:18
It allows for me to still keep a very,
30:21
very bare bones church budget
30:25
while meeting in a building that I can't afford.
30:28
Before that takes place though, we're meet, we're going to meet, you know, like
30:31
everybody else does school or in a, you know,
30:34
cafe, whatever, whoever, wherever I can rent space.
30:37
>> Loren: Right, right. Uh, was
30:40
who, who came up with this idea of like the preschool because uh,
30:42
like several years ago, or I guess it wasn't several, but a few
30:45
years ago like there was actually in my neck of the woods like an
30:48
Episcopal church that was being sold and I looked
30:51
at it with a real estate agent, was like oh my goodness, like this would be a great
30:54
property to do like a, do childcare in. It had
30:57
a big chunk of undeveloped land. We could build some affordable
31:00
housing. But like when I talked to a few people they looked at me like
31:02
outsideways like
31:05
uh, how have you, what's been the reception of saying like hey, we want
31:08
to do this preschool to help fund our, our ministry
31:11
going forward?
31:12
>> Speaker D: Well I think for us it's been,
31:15
we have a, we have a case study
31:18
that's St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper.
31:21
So St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper was planted.
31:25
Uh, they had their first service in a school,
31:27
I want to say in 2008, but they didn't build
31:30
a building until 2016. But the building
31:33
was built and a preschool was
31:36
opened like simultaneously. So,
31:40
and then looking at the numbers, the preschool is,
31:43
is carrying all of the capital costs.
31:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:46
>> Speaker D: Of the building. And so I can point
31:49
at that and go, hey, look, that works. Right?
31:52
And it works enough that banks are okay with
31:55
loaning towards it.
31:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:57
>> Speaker D: Um, because there is a guarantee and there's so many. The
32:00
average person moving to my town is in their 30s
32:03
and has at least one kid. So it's, it
32:06
is, uh, it's a necessary thing
32:09
up here. We don't have enough preschools. So it makes a
32:12
lot of sense that we can move into the market in that way.
32:15
>> Loren: Yeah, absolutely.
32:16
Let's talk, let's uh, switch gears a little bit to talking about
32:18
metrics. This is obviously like an important thing
32:21
when it comes to new church. You know,
32:24
depending on who you're working with and
32:27
depending on what context you're working in, people are going to want to know, like, how many
32:30
people, what are your offerings. That being
32:33
said, like those kind of questions of like how much money you're bringing
32:36
in is again, like the challenge of a new church
32:39
because especially if we're getting folks who are unchurched or
32:42
new to the faith, like they're not necessarily discipled into giving
32:45
a huge amount every week. And
32:49
you know, becoming self sustaining after
32:52
two, three years is going to be really challenging.
32:54
So do you have like a,
32:57
like I used to have in my context, like some, like
33:00
I'd want to have one or two new
33:03
visitors like every week. Um, so, you know,
33:06
having regular volunteers, like what are some,
33:09
I used to always, always say, like, I'm going to try to have,
33:12
talk to 10 people outside the church about my
33:15
new church. Do you have some metrics that you've thought about that
33:18
uh, you want to try to aim for and also
33:21
thought about maybe what you're going to try to
33:24
not emphasize. Does that make sense?
33:26
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I'm hoping, I mean, we're still so
33:29
new on this thing that I, I, we
33:32
haven't met as a core team much.
33:35
Sure. And uh, part of that's by design, part of that.
33:38
I'm trying to take it a slow, a slow growth
33:41
model.
33:41
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:42
>> Speaker D: Um, so I'm trying to, I
33:45
think your metrics are pretty dead on what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to talk to three
33:48
people a week about the church.
33:50
Trying to add three people a month
33:54
to the core team.
33:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:56
>> Speaker D: I'm hoping to get 40 adults
33:59
before I start meeting as a, on a Sunday.
34:03
Um, 40 adults that are not
34:06
involved in the service. So not me, not
34:09
a children's person, not a volunteer. So
34:12
those are kind of my metrics. And it is
34:15
slow going, but it also keeps me from being discouraged.
34:18
Okay, three people is not undoable. I can get right.
34:21
I can go find three people and tell them about what
34:24
we're doing. I can hopefully add three
34:27
people this month. I could
34:29
find somebody to host an interest meeting and schedule
34:32
it out for a couple of months from now.
34:35
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, this is good.
34:37
Related to this, this
34:40
challenge is, like. I didn't know how else to say it other than, like,
34:43
formation versus hustle. Like, one of the things that
34:46
probably was good and bad for me, like, I
34:49
loved the hustle of new church. Like, I just loved
34:52
the hustle of it. But also,
34:55
like, you know, I love the
34:57
entrepreneurialism of it. I love the, uh, you
35:00
know, make mistakes, fail quick, move on. Like, you
35:03
know, you just didn't have time to, like, you tried something, it didn't work.
35:06
You moved on. You didn't have. You had to keep going.
35:09
How do you balance, like, the entrepreneurial
35:12
spirit with also, like, the slow,
35:15
patient work of spiritual formation? Because they
35:18
are, in many ways, like, they're. They don't
35:21
fit together in some ways because, like, you know,
35:23
spiritual formation, again, like, especially with having a, uh, I
35:26
don't know, again, what your Runway is, but, like, especially in some contexts, like, if
35:29
your Runway is two to three years, like,
35:32
that's gonna be hard to. To make disciples in two
35:35
or three years. Uh, talk more about how that works for
35:38
you.
35:39
>> Speaker D: No, you're right that they are almost at
35:42
odds with one another in some ways. Um, because you're
35:44
constantly having to try to find new people and. And
35:48
go deeper with them at the same time. Not losing the
35:50
folks that you've had for a couple of weeks or a couple of months.
35:54
Um, I mean, in my
35:56
doing starting chapters of parachurch
35:59
ministries and then starting a church,
36:03
that fun stuff for me is the
36:05
entrepreneurial, like, let's just. Let's dream it up.
36:08
No one has any idea what this plane's gonna look like. Let's build it,
36:11
even if we're flying it. And, like, I was one of the
36:14
weirdos who loved Covid
36:17
ministry because it was like, no one has any idea
36:20
what this is supposed to look like. We get to just make
36:23
it all up as we go, and that's the most fun thing.
36:26
Um, that was the creative portion of it that I thought
36:29
was great. I love
36:32
that stuff. I love trying to figure out where we can meet people,
36:35
how we can do things. I Love. One
36:38
of the things that I had a mentor early on
36:40
in young life and youth for Christ that would tell
36:43
me, you know, you cannot be afraid of
36:46
a no show.
36:48
>> Loren: Yes.
36:48
>> Speaker D: You cannot be afraid of a no show club. That's what you would say. And so,
36:51
uh, for me, that, I mean, uh, I had several where I
36:54
would work on a talk, get kids excited, and
36:57
then I'd show up, and not one person would turn up.
37:01
But the. The. The discipline was, I don't
37:03
cancel. I'm, um, back the very next week at the same
37:06
time, and somebody else is going to show up.
37:09
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm going to cut you off here, Drew,
37:12
because I think this is so important. Like, so
37:15
important. I remember one Sunday,
37:18
it was 10:35, and we would always start at
37:20
10:35, and there was literally, it was me and
37:23
the worship leader. And, I mean, there were some
37:26
kids there and the kid staff, but, like, there was
37:29
nobody in our worship space.
37:32
Right. There's literally empty chairs.
37:35
And everybody was like, the worship leader was looking at me like,
37:38
what are we gonna. I'm like, we're gonna roll as
37:41
if there's a full crowd. So I just got up
37:43
and I said, welcome to church. Thanks for
37:46
being here. And it's funny, like, as it turned out, like, that turned
37:49
out to be like a pretty, like, good
37:52
attendance Sunday. Like, everybody was just late.
37:55
But it seems like to me, once you've
37:58
kind of gone on this, even subtly, like, oh,
38:01
uh, we can start 10 minutes
38:04
later. We can just cancel. Like,
38:07
it kind of has this way of worming its way into, like, this
38:09
doesn't really matter.
38:11
>> Speaker D: Right? No, you're right. You don't ever
38:14
cancel. That was like, you don't
38:17
cancel.
38:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:19
>> Speaker D: No matter what. Because then all of a sudden, it gives
38:21
people excuses to miss. They begin wondering, I wonder
38:24
if he's going to cancel.
38:26
>> Loren: Yes.
38:27
>> Speaker D: So, yeah, you don't cancel club. That was. That's like, the rule
38:30
we used to say all the time. And, like, for me,
38:33
as a church planter, it's the discipline of,
38:36
I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna post on Facebook,
38:39
and I'm gonna be at the downtown coffee shop at.
38:42
At noon. If nobody comes and says hello to me,
38:45
I'm going back the very next week because the. The
38:48
work that I'm doing is still the good work, whether
38:50
anyone turns up for it or not.
38:53
>> Loren: Um, yeah.
38:54
>> Speaker D: And then.
38:54
>> Loren: And that's.
38:55
>> Speaker D: It will either be blessed by the Holy Spirit or it won't. But it's not
38:58
up to me to decide that.
39:00
>> Loren: Right. And I think that's the other side. I was going to say, like,
39:03
to me, I would say. I used to say, like, the. The most
39:06
important characteristic of a church planner is being able to get out of bed Sunday
39:09
morning.
39:10
>> Speaker D: Yes.
39:11
>> Loren: Like, if you had.
39:12
>> Speaker D: If.
39:12
>> Loren: If Sunday morning was rough, if there wasn't great
39:15
attendance, if things went a mess, like, you've got to be
39:18
able to get out of bed Monday morning, be like,
39:21
all right, we're doing this again.
39:24
>> Speaker D: Yeah. You have to be at a very short memory.
39:27
>> Loren: Yes.
39:27
>> Speaker D: And I. And, like, an unwavering optimism.
39:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
39:31
>> Speaker D: And like, I don't know. A bit of a
39:34
overconfidence in the mission. Like, this
39:37
is what I'm. This. The mission is good.
39:40
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
39:42
>> Speaker D: It reminds me not to be like.
39:43
>> Loren: I'm getting those vibes again. Like, I want to go start a church today.
39:46
>> Speaker D: I know a good one in Salina.
39:47
>> Loren: I know you want me to move to Salina.
39:49
>> Speaker D: I, uh. There's a. It reminds me of a story, a sports story. And,
39:52
I mean, this is what I used to live for. But, like.
39:55
>> Loren: Right. Right.
39:55
>> Speaker D: Steve Spurrier, we was coaching at Florida, used to draw
39:59
all of the football plays that he would draw. He would draw them
40:02
ending in the end zone. So, um, he would draw an
40:05
end zone on every play. So, you know, we don't
40:08
have any plays to get six yards. Every single thing we
40:11
do is to get into the end zone. And so when we don't, we go up
40:14
and run another touchdown play. Every single play is
40:16
a touchdown play. And that's kind of the short
40:19
memory. Like, if it didn't work out, guess what? I'm running the same
40:22
thing tomorrow. Because I'm, um. I.
40:25
It's designed to score, it's designed to work,
40:28
and so eventually, I believe that it will.
40:33
>> Loren: You'd probably appreciate this. Jerry Rice sort of did the same thing,
40:35
right. In practice. He'd always take every catch to
40:38
the house.
40:39
>> Speaker D: Take to the house. Yeah. That's where you're trying to go.
40:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:43
All right, important question here. Before we take a break, let's talk
40:46
about soul care. How do
40:49
you. I think I don't know how to impress upon you
40:52
the importance of this. Just as a former church
40:54
planter, when think about yourself, think about your
40:57
family. Uh, I recommended to you
41:00
this book by Tim Mori, who I had on the
41:03
podcast a few years ago, how to plant a
41:06
church without losing your soul. Again,
41:09
maintain appropriate boundaries here. But, like,
41:12
how do you hope to take care of yourself? Take care of your family?
41:16
>> Speaker D: Yeah. I have a. I have an amazing coach.
41:18
Um, his name's Bob Logan. He's
41:21
awesome. We meet monthly. And uh, the first
41:24
question he asks me every time is, how's your soul?
41:28
And I think this is. It's an important
41:30
thing. You're absolutely right. Like,
41:33
I have to be a person who is full
41:36
of love, joy, peace, patience,
41:39
kindness in order to, like, actually do any good work. In
41:42
order to allow the Holy Spirit to change me and
41:45
transform me in order to transform my community.
41:48
And as I lose sight of that, it's when I begin
41:50
thinking that it's my effort or what I'm trying to do or my work,
41:54
um, that's going to do things, then it's not.
41:57
I'm going to burn out. I'm going to become
41:59
ash. I meet
42:02
with him monthly. I have a ton of people that are praying
42:05
for me. He recommended I start
42:08
a core team, but then simultaneously have a prayer team.
42:11
>> Loren: That is, yes, that's good.
42:12
>> Speaker D: Mostly made up of folks who aren't coming to my church who don't live in
42:15
Salina. And I email them, uh, at least
42:18
monthly, sometimes twice a month. Please
42:21
pray for these specific things. Please m.
42:24
Pray for me and my family. Please pray for this thing,
42:27
these kids that I've met, these young adults that I
42:29
interacted with. This mom of three.
42:33
Um, please pray for us. And
42:36
that's been awesome. Just the discipline of writing those emails has
42:39
been great. I do
42:42
morning prayer as well. And I
42:45
think, you know, I mentioned this actually in a sermon yesterday.
42:48
I think it's incredibly telling that in the
42:51
prayer book that Cranmer, when they put morning and
42:54
evening prayer together, there's a confession and
42:57
absolution at both services, as if to
43:00
say you're going to forget between
43:03
breakfast and dinner that your sins are forgiven.
43:06
Like you're going to forget in the one day in a 20
43:09
hour period, um, that my sins
43:13
are absolved. And I think doing that for
43:15
me, just doing the practice of confession and
43:18
receiving absolution or, uh, remembering my
43:21
absolution is, has been very helpful for
43:24
me. Just remembering that I'm forgiven.
43:27
>> Loren: Well, let's talk about this
43:30
because I need you to keep talking because my kid is screaming in the
43:33
background. Family, like, this is
43:36
a challenge. Like, you grew up Baptist. I was just reading Beth Alison
43:39
Barr's book. Um, can't, um,
43:42
remember the title. Recommend it.
43:43
>> Speaker D: Oh, is it the female pastor book that just came out? I haven't read it.
43:46
Yep.
43:47
>> Loren: How do you, how do you like balance?
43:50
Like, how do you balance that with your
43:52
wife, with your kids? Like I was of the opinion.
43:55
Like, obviously, I wanted my wife and kids to be highly involved,
43:58
but also I didn't want my wife becoming a unpaid, uh, co
44:01
pastor.
44:02
>> Speaker D: Right. No. And that's huge. I,
44:06
I think my wife knows that she's going to be involved.
44:09
She's gotten that memo at the same time, like,
44:12
trying to set up a boundary there where it's like,
44:15
I'm planting this church on the behalf of
44:18
the Diocese of Dallas. But I do not expect you
44:21
to be an unpaid co pastor of this thing. And luckily,
44:24
the Episcopal Church doesn't really expect her to be
44:27
either, which is really nice. Um, there's
44:30
no, there isn't that
44:32
unwritten expectation of the pastor's
44:35
wife in my denomination as much as there as
44:37
there have been in some. Um, we don't get to put both of our names on our, on
44:40
the website as pastor. I think we're,
44:44
we're trying to maintain balance. I'm also like, I've. I've asked
44:47
a number of people when I meet them, how can I
44:50
pray for you? Or priests that I know that are older
44:53
and that I ask for advice? I remember
44:56
I was with a couple of them, and people were
44:59
asking them different advice. All the young priests were asking advice. And my question
45:02
was like, how do you not screw up your kids?
45:05
Like, my number one question, I was like, look, you guys have great kids
45:08
and they're well adjusted and they're older and
45:11
how. My kids are 7, 4, and 2. How
45:14
do I get my kids to the finish line
45:17
without me and my role and what God's doing in my
45:20
life, messing them up?
45:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:22
>> Speaker D: And he said, they said, you pray for them
45:26
and you pray with them and you're around them
45:29
and you, you, you set the expectations of, hey,
45:31
look, I might not be at everything because
45:34
of my job, but when I'm at
45:37
the thing, I am 100%
45:40
at the thing. I'm there.
45:42
Um, part of that for me has come down to, like,
45:45
I don't wear my collar when I'm
45:48
at a school function for my daughter. She's m. The only
45:51
one that's old enough to have school stuff. So, like, yeah, I'm not
45:54
in the collar when I go to her school for pickup. I'm not my caller when I go to
45:57
her school to do, uh, to watch her
46:00
performances or whatever, just because I need her to know
46:03
this. His dad is being dad in this moment. And
46:06
like, ontologically, when I get into that, maybe, yeah, I'm still a priest
46:09
at that moment, but, like, no, I'm,
46:12
I'M Dad.
46:12
>> Loren: It's a good practical boundary. It's a good practical boundary.
46:15
Uh, well, let's take a quick break here and let's come back with
46:18
some closing questions.
46:22
Let's roll into some closing questions here because, hey, my
46:25
kid is losing its mind upstairs and, well, my kid
46:28
apparently.
46:29
>> Speaker D: My kid apparently just put himself to sleep, which has never
46:32
happened before, so a 4 year old did. So maybe
46:35
we're all sick. Who knows?
46:37
>> Loren: Maybe, uh, you. You don't
46:40
have a pope. We don't. We kind of talked about this,
46:43
but, uh, if you were a poper or had a
46:46
significant influence in Christianity, what would you want
46:48
to do for that day?
46:52
>> Speaker D: It's a great question. If I was, if I were to be
46:55
made Pope,
46:58
I think I would. I would like to get people together
47:01
and ask, are we really about
47:03
reconciliation? Especially people who have split off
47:07
from various denominations for whatever reason.
47:10
Do you genuinely have a roadmap towards
47:13
reconciliation or do you really care about it?
47:16
Or are you in. I mean, what do you, what are you actually
47:19
about? Because if you're really about reconciliation with
47:21
one another and ecumenism,
47:25
then let's have a conversation. But if you don't actually care
47:28
about those things, if not actually about that, then you're. I think you're
47:31
grieving the body of Christ. Um, so that's what I
47:34
would do. I would start with, with start in and go
47:37
out. Let's talk about ourselves first. Can we
47:40
see any roadmap towards unity
47:43
as Christians, or are we really just about building
47:46
our own, our own tribe, our own brand?
47:49
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, theologian or historical
47:52
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
47:59
>> Speaker D: That's a great question. Theologian. I'd like to meet Robert
48:02
Jensen.
48:03
>> Loren: Who? I don't know that name.
48:04
>> Speaker D: Robert Jensen was a Lutheran theologian from 20th century. He
48:07
just, he only passed away a few years ago. Okay.
48:10
Um, but his
48:13
American theologian, he might be one of the most
48:15
important American theologians of the 20th century.
48:18
He has meant a ton to me in
48:21
my formation here recently.
48:24
Yeah, I would love to meet him. I'd also love to meet Thomas
48:26
Cranmer.
48:27
>> Loren: Sure.
48:28
>> Speaker D: And just chat.
48:29
>> Loren: What do you think?
48:30
>> Speaker D: What's going on?
48:31
>> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time and
48:33
place?
48:35
>> Speaker D: Uh, this is not really Christian, but I think
48:38
I'm hopeful that my
48:41
child, my oldest child, my seven year old, especially
48:44
by the time she is in high school, she will
48:47
look back at social media the way that we look at
48:50
cigarettes. Oh, that is my hope.
48:53
Uh, that, that by then we have already moved
48:56
Into. I cannot believe everyone was doing
48:59
this all the time. I cannot believe kids were doing this at
49:02
school because it is, it was killing people.
49:07
Yeah.
49:08
>> Loren: You're not wrong. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
49:13
>> Speaker D: That we might work towards being
49:16
a, ah, better reflection of Christ's unified body
49:19
in the world. That we can get over
49:22
minor things and get back onto the
49:25
creeds, the main things,
49:28
um, that we can work to re.
49:30
Enchant the world to a world that's desperate for it being re.
49:33
Enchanted. Like to say there's more to this than what
49:36
you can see, than what you can describe in therapy.
49:39
Like, there's more to what's going on and we can be a voice for
49:42
that and to tell people their sins are forgiven.
49:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:46
Okay. I feel like I need to ask you like a good sports
49:49
question.
49:49
>> Speaker D: Yeah, go for it.
49:51
>> Loren: So I don't know, you're in Dallas. Like,
49:54
uh, like, how about the Cowboys coming up? Like,
49:57
yeah, yeah, they're gonna be a usual mess. Like, what do
50:00
you think?
50:00
>> Speaker D: The Cowboys are a mess. The Cowboys will be continuing to be
50:03
a mess. I. Every
50:06
year at some point, I either like my text my brother,
50:10
I have decided once again to emotionally
50:12
invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys football team,
50:15
or the opposite will be true. Like about
50:18
eight weeks in I go, I am really glad I have not decided
50:21
to invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys.
50:24
But like, it's awful because they, they are
50:28
consistently. Lucy, uh,
50:31
getting. Pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.
50:33
>> Loren: Right. Okay, you can be quick on this. Cause I know we're
50:36
running out of time, but the Cowboys are an organization
50:39
that continually astounds me when you think about like,
50:42
unlimited resources, a great
50:45
history, an owner who theoretically seems
50:47
to at least profess to care about winning. Like, sure.
50:51
What is it about that organization that can't win? I mean, I know
50:54
winning is not like guaranteed in the
50:56
NFL, but like.
50:59
>> Speaker D: It'S, it's, it is, uh, it is proof that for some
51:01
teams,
51:04
getting everything right can still go wrong
51:07
because they have found a new way to lose
51:11
big games. It's not even one thing. You can't point to one
51:14
thing. Go, oh, if we can get the quarterback right, I think they have a decent
51:16
quarterback. If we get better defense, I think they
51:19
got decent defenders. You don't know which part of
51:22
the car is going to fall off, but
51:25
you do know that one part will eventually fall
51:28
off. Uh, yeah, that's the Cowboys. The Cowboys are
51:32
this, this institution that
51:35
has no reason to be unsuccessful, yet finds new
51:37
ways to be unsuccessful over and over and over again.
51:41
>> Loren: I mean, I, again, I don't want to belabor the point,
51:44
but I feel like it is almost a metaphor of this idea like that
51:47
culture losing or something always
51:50
coming up short really does matter. And oh yeah,
51:53
working in that culture again. I mean we, we
51:56
talked about this somewhat from the beginning about mainline
51:59
culture. Like those cultures are hard to break and they're hard to.
52:02
To shift those, the unhealthy patterns. So,
52:05
uh, share if you would, how people can connect with you if they want to
52:08
get involved. Like on your prayer list. I gotta deal with my kid
52:11
screaming upstairs.
52:12
>> Speaker D: No worries. Advent Salina. Um,
52:14
I'm at Advent Salina on Instagram. That's
52:18
a D, V, E, N T C E, L, I
52:21
N A. So line is with the C Advent sign on
52:24
Instagram. You can find my substack@father
52:27
drew.substack.com Both places are
52:30
kind of the best places to reach
52:33
me. Send me a message on there and I can add you to the email
52:35
list. I try not to do much
52:38
personal social media if I can for that same
52:41
reason. And I. And you know, trying to
52:44
build a church. So if you do know people in
52:47
Salina or you know, the surrounding area, it's
52:50
a big geographic reason region, let them
52:52
know we got a good one coming.
52:55
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, awesome.
52:56
Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. We always leave folks
52:59
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you
53:03
and also with.
53:11
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
53:14
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
53:17
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
53:20
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53:23
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53:25
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53:40
peace.