Latest / Alive & Kicking: Stories of Waking Up with Kay Eck / Michael Shapiro -- Sensitivity, Service & Skateboarding

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Michael Shapiro -- Sensitivity, Service & Skateboarding · Alive & Kicking: Stories of Waking Up with Kay Eck

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: As a teenager, I was already starting to mentor kids.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the beginning was I was a good skateboarder.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they all looked up to me.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was able to influence their lives in a way that probably wouldn't have if I didn't skateboard.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then they would start to ask me things like, I'm thinking about trying, you know, crystal meth.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's a good idea?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say, it's a terrible idea.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like your teeth will fall, your skin will peel off, you'll, your life will be destroyed.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they would listen.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized even as a teenager, like they're listening to me and they're asking me things they're not asking any adult figure in their life.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everybody, to the Alive and Kicking Podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have as my guest today Michael Shapiro.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And Michael and I met um unusual, well, I guess it wasn't that unusual, but we both attended a workshop in Ohio about, I don't know, six months ago, five months.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long it was, but some time ago.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was actually observing, but you were a participant.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so moved and inspired by your story.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew that I had to have you on the podcast.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so grateful for you to you for agreeing to sit with me and talk about this crazy path that we're all on.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thrilled to be here, excited for the conversation and really looking forward to it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yay, that's great.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I usually like to start with some kind of um insight into your childhood and what that, you know, where you grew up, what kind of family you had, what was your role in your family?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I grew up in a small town called Prescott, Arizona.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's in northern Arizona.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh parents got divorced at a really early age, and mom got remarried to a um my stepdad, who I grew up in this family.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um definitely middle child.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have an older stepbrother, um, a younger sister, and I'm right in the middle.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, probably a lot of my childhood really has shaped who I am, where I'm going in life, and why I have such a heart for the mission that I'm involved in.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say that you um that it shaped you, like in what way?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: What were the what were were the catalysts for that that shaping?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I was uh I've always been a very highly sensitive person.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a highly sensitive child, um, also very inquisitive and also really drawn to the things of God.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um my biological father is of the Jewish background, Jewish faith.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember the first time him mentioning God.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, this is fascinating.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea what it was.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: He just introduced the whole concept to me.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I must have been three.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, you know, God is everywhere.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's in this house, he's in the world, he's in this bowl on this table.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I sort of just started asking all these questions.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: A couple, probably two or three days later, there was this massive lightning storm, thunder.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: We were out on the um porch and I was scared.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I um I asked my dad, are we safe?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Well, the lightning could definitely strike us, it could set our house on fire.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were definitely not safe from the lightning.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember early on thinking, well, maybe that God you were talking about could keep me safe, you know?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was an initially just an early experience that stayed with me.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, not long after that, my parents got divorced.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And there were a lot of things that forced me to sort of uh recognize that there is a creator that's holding all things together, versus the um parents and other people in her life who are doing their best, were sort of like mile markers along the way.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I had an amazing kindergarten teacher, her name was Mrs.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Shields, uh, is Mrs.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Shields.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think she's still alive.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: She was um very old even when I had her, and it was a public school, and she was the first person to teach me about prayer.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: All of us, we would sit and just pray over our meal.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one time I had a really bad headache, and I was supposed to march in the Christmas parade with my class, and I was just struggling.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she came up from behind and she put her hand on my shoulder and she prayed for me.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: First time I ever heard anybody pray for me.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And she also said that I was special and there was a plan for my life, and I believed her.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was also an amazing reference point for me of faith, of the peace that comes with people who do follow God and um bring his peace with them.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I recognized the same qualities in my stepgrandmother that I did in Mrs.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Shields.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I met my grandparents, stepgrandparents uh probably uh that same year, kindergarten age.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, I bet my grandma, this new lady, knows the same person that my kindergarten teacher knew.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: There was just a joy, a peace, but also like uh genuine interest in me as a kid.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, adults often kind of brush off um kids, and it was interesting, it seemed like the people of faith took sincere interest in kids and uh in me in a really positive way.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so those were really important reference points for me.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, interesting enough, I eventually became a kindergarten teacher.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I taught for two years, and uh when I started the nonprofit that we'll obviously probably talk about, um I had a kid, uh a young man reach out to me and he goes, Mr.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Shro, you may not remember me.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: My name's Jonas, and I've had some real difficult things happen in my life, but you were my kindergarten teacher, and a lot of people have passed away, and I was moving some boxes, and our class photo fell out, and it reminded me of being safe.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Well, Jonas, what are you doing right now?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Let's have lunch.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we did, we had lunch, and so this was 15 years after I had him in my class.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we reconnected, and he's since been a part of our program.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I just remember early on the impact Mrs.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Shields had in my life and how she made me feel safe.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, I was able to, you know, transfer some of that for others, little kids who are now grown-ups who um remember being safe, remember feeling safe.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's just amazing how impactful some of these little moments are in the life of a child.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if we really knew what our words and what sharing something of ourself could possibly mean to young people, like, wow, that's incredible.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think you and I sort of have a similar, I'm gonna call it a similar early spark in that I I wasn't really taught very much about God.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a Catholic school, but even you know, you know, life starts before school.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't recall there being a, you know, a strong faith in my family, but I as soon as I um but I was a a devout little girl.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was a faithful girl, and I started out that way and had this feeling like, oh, you know, the humans here, they're not in charge.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna need to be in charge of myself.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I had some of that um, you know, that that that trust and faith in in something that it was assisting me that I was that I was definitely not on my own.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering how this, you know, sometimes this feeling of being alone in the world except with the um, you know, with with God can can be kind of trying at times.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if you run across times like that in your life where either your faith faltered or you felt alone.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think my generation um and older knew a lot of a lot more solitude.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: At least we had more solitude without electronics or devices.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, a big part of my life was marked with times of solitude, loneliness, you know, um quiet, silence.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Growing up in a small town, playing in the backyard by myself a lot.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, being alone, I think such an important part of the spiritual journey.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think um, you know, it's it's kind of a tried analogy, but it's like the tree that constantly has surface water will never really grow deep roots.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're in a desert where I live in Arizona, and so the trees that survive are the ones that have deep tap roots.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so when the surface water sort of dries up and you have to go really deep into the table water, those are the kind of trees that provide shade and refuge for animals and people.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the same way, the people who provide refuge and uh sense of comfort and shade for those around them have had long extended times of solitude and loneliness.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they use that time not perfectly, but take to take refuge in God and actually find that deep table water.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've done that.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I've had those experiences with it being imposed upon me, like it wasn't voluntary.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I a year after graduating from college that it was it felt like I couldn't, I couldn't buy a friend, even if I could afford one.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was like my whole social community dried up and I resisted it.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh now I really now can identify with people who are lonely and I can sense like what they need and what they maybe need to hear.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I was really kind of grateful for that experience of loneliness, true loneliness.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when I was a little bit after that season, I um hiked the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was a six-month backpacking trip.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I did have a hiking partner, but for big stretches of the day and even sometimes weeks, I was alone.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's such an important quality to feel comfortable and at ease in your own skin by yourself, um, and to just be okay with your own presence.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that offers then a lot of comfort for those once you enter into community.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know if you read Henry Nowen, but I love Henry Nowen.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, he's such a great writer.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, without solitude, you don't have really much content or substance to add to community.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: But without community, solitude feels like loneliness and it's a feeling of desperation.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think a person needs to experience both solitude and community.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So they have something to add to the community, and then they also don't feel desperate and alone when they're by themselves.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that combination I think is really important and harder to find in the modern world.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So did you have a sense from uh the beginning that there was some relationship between this faith and service or this belief and service, or you know what yeah, yeah, I didn't, I couldn't have put words to it then when I started, but I definitely more so now.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'll give you an example.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: When I was when I finished hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, it was in 2002, and I got back and really relatively mostly for six months, half a year of my life was in nature mostly.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you would go into towns to resupply and and um, but then you'd be back in nature, and it's a lot slower and quieter, and so coming back to a big city like Phoenix was overwhelming and really um disruptive.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I started to notice these men at grocery stores and stuff, very dark skin, um, kind of ill-fitted clothes because they were really tall, so their pants were high water.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just started noticing a lot of them.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked, I uh I'd get to know them, and they were from Sudan, uh called the Lost Boys of Sudan.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So they're refugees from southern Sudan um during a civil war.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I heard that they had hiked a thousand miles, they'd hiked from Sudan, a lot of their small villages, all the way to Kenya or Ethiopia and back.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So they they've experienced this, you know.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it wasn't a voluntary thing like I did, but they'd walked a long distance.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they seemed a little bit like I felt when I would came back from this long hike.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I identified with them.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's such an important aspect of service, is not just coming in and try to rescue people, but to yeah, I identify with them.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I ended up working with the Lost Boys of Sudan for about five years and became really close with that community.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the same way, I work directly with youth in foster care or youth that have been impacted by foster care.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I identify with them.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I sense their, you know, some of the things they've been through.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I think that's so important to not think you're gonna go on a rescue, but you can actually learn from them and you're like, I also know how you feel, you know.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, some coming coming to it with a sense of humbleness and um almost like partnership instead of you know, some kind of hierarchy where you know, definitely those those dark periods in one's life can can bring that that equilibrium to a situation like that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and they like the kids I work with oftentimes will mentor me and they'll teach me or remind me of what's true as much as I've done that for them.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so yeah, it's it's a two-way street for sure.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we learn as much from them as they learn from us, maybe more.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: When you were younger, did was service a um a factor in your life?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Was it a component of your life?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um it wasn't like something we did as a family.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my home that I grew up in was not necessarily a religious home at all.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there wasn't really any built-in sort of community service opportunities, but I always liked teaching and coaching.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I always liked, again, being a sensitive person.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I used to, even growing up, that was sort of a negative quality from the perspective of like, you know, rough and tough kind of cowboy type people.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always thought that was something you kind of had to get out from under.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: But looking back, I was just sensitive to people and my heart went out to people, even peers.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think I've always felt for people and wanted to try to ease their burden or make their lives better.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I I was also was always kind of just caught off guard and didn't understand why people were mean.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why are why are you being mean to me or why are you being mean to them?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so not always did I stand up or wasn't necessarily a vigilante, but I remember early on in junior high, there was a girl with Down syndrome, and this kid was just really picking on her, and I stood up for her, and um, I didn't think it was a big deal because in junior high, you just forget about things, but she ended up working for a friend who was a part of a sheltered workshop for those with disabilities, and she was very high functioning.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I hadn't talked to her since junior high.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And my friend goes, Um, you went to school with one of my coworkers, and she just thinks the world of you from that one experience, you know.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so as you mentioned early in the interview, these small gestures or words that we speak almost off-handed at times, um, can really leave an impact, you know, and make a difference in people's lives, for better or for good or for worse, you know.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: This this topic of sensitivity, I think, is so important because back when you were growing up, I'm guessing that, you know, for a boy, for a little boy, it probably was not um, you know, valued the way that we might value it a little bit more today.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering how you came to recognize that perhaps you were different or that you had um, it's a little bit of a burden um to to grow up that way.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And can you just describe a little bit about what that was like?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's like that idea like you need to toughen up.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be so sensitive, don't be such a wimp, you know, those kind of things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I've um I think I did toughen up in some really good ways.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just like three days ago, somebody tried to steal my friend's bicycle, and I like literally leapt on him and took him down to the ground and got his bike back, you know, and I wasn't mean, but I also got his attention, you know, and so I think in some ways it's good to be assertive, it's good to be strong, um, to be vigilant, those kind of things.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but uh yeah, uh for the most part it was sort of a negative thing, you know, if from the perspective of my grandparents, my grandfather, my stepdad, um, you know, kids in school.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, obviously early on from my generation or our generation, I was like Mr.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Rogers, Fred Rogers.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I resonated with him.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And as an adult, I go, that guy was amazing, you know, and um I cried when I saw his documentary.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um Henry Nowin's sort of the same.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I started to recognize there is some beauty in being sensitive.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when things that are really hard come, like death or um real adversity, being tough and strong, sort of insensitive, sometimes makes it even harder to grieve.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I've watched some of the heroes in my life or the strong, tough cowboy types, when faced with emotional adversity, sort of become opaque and transparent, like they can't even handle it.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm starting to learn real strength, true strength.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes is somebody in touch with their feelings, their senses, and deeper, deeply anchored and rooted in the things of God.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot more um substantial when you deal with very difficult things that life throws at you.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I remember as a school teacher, probably the first time it was ever brought to my attention, I uh had the substitute teacher next door.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she would poke her head in every once in a while and ask questions one day.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then at lunch, she comes in and she goes, You're a highly sensitive person.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What do you mean?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, No, I mean it's like a type of person.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a book written about it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: She goes, the way you have plants on each desk, the way you have songs and music, the way the sunlight comes through the classroom, the way you speak, you never raise your voice, the way you take genuine interest in each individual, like one size fits one type of perspective.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, That's all those were all indicators of highly sensitive people.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never heard of that term, you know, HSP, as uh in a positive way.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was always like, don't be so sensitive.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I went and bought this book, and it was like, oh, like, yeah, this is wonderful, beautiful.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it resonated with so many pages of the book.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you seem like the same type of person.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can drive down the road, see a person at a bus stop, just look at their face and want to cry for them, you know, and sense what they're going through without even ever interacting with them.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what I've learned in my adult life is that one of the more useful ways of being sensitive is to not be so sensitive to yourself, but to actually kind of turn that sensitivity toward others too.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So in life, it's not always about us, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had a friend say, you know, there are arrows flying all over, and I think occasionally you like to grab one out of the air and stick it in your chest, you know, and um, and I think that's the truth that sometimes happens with sensitive people is they take things really personally and they feel so much, and not everything's meant for them.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what I've learned is to take some of my sensitivity and make it it put it in service to those around me rather than it just being this sort of intern eyeballs, like, uh um, always just about me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think though that's um as we mature and grow, we use those strengths, which are also our weaknesses, to help our community.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I heard one time somebody say that to to quote unquote.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Feel sorry for someone.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't I think they were talking about something other than empathy.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but to feel sorry for someone is disrespectful of the path that their soul has chosen for them.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that really struck me.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I but I also feel like it's a hard thing to balance because you don't obviously want to move to callousness where it's like, well, you, you know, your soul chose this path because obviously some things are unjust.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um so I'm I'm just wondering if you how you feel about that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: What what's your reaction to that?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I work in I I don't know if we'll get to it in the interview, but I work with youth in foster care, and the stories you hear are terrify, terrible, terrible, horrifying, difficult.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then the um challenge of those who get out of foster care and try to find their way in the world um on their own without the resources of parents and family and infrastructure and finances and all those things, it's tough.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to sort of balance that.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I entered into the pain and suffering of each young person that I work with, I would no longer be stable enough to even help them, you know.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I try to find that balance between um compassion and um and yet not feeling everything they're feeling because um sometimes it's based on choices they've made, sometimes it's life circumstance, but um each person has their own journey.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we can come alongside them and not be like taken down with their sorrow, I think we can help them a lot more.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, as a sensitive person, I try to be really careful to not feel everybody's feelings, you know, and and I do that with uh other people's marriages.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I sometimes I feel like I'm more concerned about their marriage than they are, you know, and um that's not gonna work.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we control the inputs and not the outcomes, and um we just do the best with the input.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately the people take or things happen.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes it's truly divinely inspired, other times it's um people's will.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I really try to work on controlling the inputs and letting the outcomes kind of with open hands.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: This um the subject of foster care is something that um is really deeply um deeply affects me.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I uh yeah, it it I mean it's um it's it's sad.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like makes me uh like I can't I can't bear it, but I do want to talk about it.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So as a way of entering into this um conversation about your service, let's talk a little bit about your um your history with uh skateboarding.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, long history.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um I guess I'll start when I first discovered it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So skateboarding, I I as a kid, I was not very good at conventional sports.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I played team sports, I played basketball and those things, but I just never was very good at it or even passionate about it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd be the kid in the baseball field, like looking at the cloud patterns or the dandelions growing in the grass, like I just didn't care.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I found skateboarding and I, for whatever reason, identified with it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: It resonated with me.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was the 80s, so it was the colors, it was the designs of the skateboards, it was the skateboard culture, it was the music.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I only had access to skateboarding really through skateboard magazines.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was really, I would just captivated by the skateboard magazines.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um my brothers, my stepbrother skateboarded with me, and it was just fun.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it, but it was a fad.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So skateboarding was sort of like um every decade would go in and out of fashion.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the 80s, it was kind of big and popular and bright colors, and then toward the end of the 80s, it it waned and it became very unpopular.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it was probably at one of the low all-time lows, but I still loved it, it was still my favorite thing in the world, and everybody would quit skateboarding, everybody quit skateboarding, and it was kind of like one of the only ones.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I remember in junior high just like kind of carrying this torch alone.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a small subculture, it was a small cowboy town.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Prescott's the home of the world's oldest rodeo, and so it was um just I just didn't want to let it go.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I continued to skateboard and got pretty good at it, uh, definitely above average and just loved it.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, became competitive in high school with skateboarding and would fly to California.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Skateboarding was so small that even like Tony Hawk, who's one of the most famous skateboarders, would come to these amateur contests, you know, just to be around skateboard culture.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I guess as I got older, I needed a place to skateboard.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: We needed a place to train.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: There was a small handful of kids that skateboarded too.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got arrested for skateboarding.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wasn't vandalizing, I wasn't doing anything bad, I was just skateboarding.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's there's some slight sort of wear and tear from skateboarding on properties, but um the police handcuffed me and my buddy Jason Fann.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and it was pretty aggressive, yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I so I um I uh Jason's dad owned the largest construction company in northern Arizona and said, you guys are good kids, give us a give me a place to pave a surface, put a fence around it and some lights, and and I'll I'll pay for it.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went to the local YMCA.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I remember putting on a nice outfit, going to the board meeting and saying, you know, here's pictures of all the no skateboarding signs in our town.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I took pictures of literally hundreds of no skateboarding signs.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I took pictures of basketball courts and tennis courts, and I said, you know, the city provides outlets for people who are passionate about their sports, except for skateboarding.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a single place to do it legally.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I made a compelling sort of argument.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And this guy named John Moore raised his hand in the board meeting.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I'll take that on.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take that on as a program at the YMCA.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so he was a really nice man, really big man, super heavy.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, kind of uh looped it in under his recreation sort of title or directorship.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we had an indoor skate park at the YMCA for a little bit, and then during the winter, all the ramps and everything got moved to where the outdoor pool was.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the pool was this 10-foot deep square pool, and we were building a half pipe in the middle of it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was myself, a lot of people doing community service from the local jail, and we built this half pipe, and um I was the only one to write it.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrote it, it was exciting.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was really excited to do it and introduce it to the kids.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then um John wanted to look at it, and there was a gap, probably like a four-foot, three-foot gap between the deck of the pool and the deck of the ramp.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we were gonna put you know, fencing around it, but this was sort of temporary.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: He stepped across the scaffolding board two by twelve, fell through, broke through, and he died.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: So he literally fell through between the ramp and the edge of the pool.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so, literally, I mean, it was kind of traumatizing, but literally, um, the YMCA goes, we don't want anything to do with this.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the next day took all of it out, um, threw it all away.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as a 16-year-old, I thought, I think I, and the reason this guy died, you know, I mean, if I didn't come and introduce this idea, uh, he would still be alive.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, process some of that, you know, uh no one ever said, hey, you should probably go to counseling or therapy.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just sort of processed it as a teenager, but then came back to the YMCA and said, um, this is still a service we need to provide.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And no one died skateboarding.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: They died, you know, this was a tragic accident, but it wasn't related to the act of skateboarding.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so through a kind of a long process, um we we we built a skate park.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: We we paved the the surface at the YMCA, we put a fence around it, put lights up.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember working like a dog.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I got hired actually ultimately as the skate park director when I was 17.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember day and night working.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: The kids were always surrounding the park.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: When's it gonna be open?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: When's it gonna be open?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and we're we're working on it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I remember one time I used to park my truck with the doors open.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'd play music.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, one time the music started to fade, and I looked over, I thought someone turned the radio off.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I and my truck's rolling backwards, and it's rolling backwards in neutral toward the gymnastics building, which is all glass windows, and kids doing gymnastics.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I drop my tool belt, I ran as fast as I could.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: The truck's rolling backwards, the doors are open.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to get around the door, I fall, the door hits me in the head, I almost get run over by the front driver's side wheel.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had to get up again, run as fast as I can, jump into the truck, pull the emergency brake two feet before it hits the windows, and just would have killed people.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked up the hill, and there's probably 40 kids, like, yeah, like Indiana Jones, like, oh my gosh.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I drive up, my head's bleeding.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: I drive up to the same spot, pull the emergency brake, turn the radio off, close the doors.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was probably the best thing that could have happened because I all of a sudden had this like allegiance of these kids that saw like Indiana Jones, you know, like they were just like, oh my gosh, that's the most amazing thing.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so later on when I said, Hey, you need to wear your helmet, you know, they'd be like, Okay, you know, like put on their helmet and stuff.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I became the skate park director, and that was sort of the beginning of mentoring kids in the context of skateboarding.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And skateboarding has a way of attracting kids who are sort of on the fringe that don't really align to conventional sports, um, feel like outsiders, they listen to punk rock, they dress a little bit different.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh again, I identified with them.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I also felt the same way.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a teenager, I was already starting to mentor kids.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the beginning was I was a good skateboarder.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they all looked up to me and I was able to influence their lives in a way that probably wouldn't have if I didn't skateboard.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then they would start to ask me things like, I'm thinking about trying, you know, crystal meth.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's a good idea?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say, it's a terrible idea.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like your teeth will fall, your skin will peel off, you'll your life will be destroyed.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they would listen.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized, even as a teenager, like they're listening to me and they're asking me things they're not asking any adult figure in their life.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was really the beginning of mentoring kids in the context of skateboarding.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a natural way to come shoulder to shoulder, not from a hierarchy, but just we're learning the same tricks, we're falling on the ground, we're getting back up, we're talking.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I was just doing it last night.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just kids start to ask questions.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: They start to say, like, how do you do where do you put your foot for a kickflip?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a little bit, oh wow, that works.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: They get really excited.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then next thing you know, you're talking about graduating high school and what they're going to do next and how they're not really motivated.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you you are motivated.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Look, you were been trying to kick flip for an hour.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I'm motivated, but not motivated.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we start talking about intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation and passive and active efforts, and it's just the segue into a lot of influence for kids who aren't necessarily um asking any anybody else those questions.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, it's just been a natural way for me to make friends, um, to influence kids who often don't have anybody else influencing them.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, a lot of kids who don't have fathers in their life.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, not that I'm a father figure, but to be a um uh caring, uh a reference of a caring adult in their life.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, just this kid, this guy cares about me and he doesn't want to do anything bad to me.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: He just wants me to thrive.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that goes a long way for a lot of kids who don't have dads, you know.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: What I love about your story is um, you know, this notion of your service is in what you love.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people searching for their mission, their purpose, um, think it m maybe it has to be uh, you know, something separate from your from your joy and your but it actually the joy is the doorway.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: But but what your story is kind of showing is that it's not always easy.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: That just because you love skateboarding doesn't mean you have these terrible things that you've had to overcome.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I can't even imagine the courage that it must have taken to show back up at the YMCA after the accident and um you know say like we still need this, we still it's still a valuable, valuable outlet.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so like this leads us into, I guess, um, a conversation about what you're doing now.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um so tell it because I've forgotten the name of the organization.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us what you're doing now and how it got started and what you're doing.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess real fast, though, to uh kind of segue from what you were saying earlier.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: That is um skateboarders know that it's you're not gonna get it at first.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: They also know that you're gonna fall like a hundred times before you get it, 300 times, a thousand times.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of baked into skateboarding.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Even the most famous skateboarders, they know they they still fall.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so um it's sort of a secret advantage, you know, like you just keep coming back.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: We became the newest partner of this group called social venture partners.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're an amazing group that comes alongside for five years and provides both financial support but also strategic support.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they go, we've never had an organization apply five times, and it's a really big application process.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, well, yeah, we're skateboarders, we know it's gonna take multiple times, you know.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that's really helpful.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: The resilience that comes from skateboarding to say, yeah, it is gonna be hard.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if we if there's perseverance and persistence, if you truly believe in it, um, you'll accomplish it, you know, and so that's baked in.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I love what you're saying.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's interesting when we look back on our lives and we see the weaving path, but how much of it sort of um comes together in such beautiful ways.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Swapau Plus is the name of the organization, um, the SWAPOW Plus Foundation.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we're a nonprofit organization with the mission to give Arizona foster youth the opportunity and ability to thrive through skateboarding.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just this unique vehicle to help our participants thrive personally and professionally.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been, when I look back on my life, I go, I couldn't have I couldn't have had a better upbringing to experience um and to be prepare me for what I'm doing now.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, working with the YMCA and the executive director, working with the Lost Boys Center, um, the Resource Center for Refugees from Sudan, being a school teacher, um, skateboarding, woodworking, all of it sort of kind of comes together.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: I even knew in college I was terrified of public speaking.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this would have freaked me out for like a week.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I purposely kind of leaned into speaking because I knew I was going to need it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so all of it has prepared me for what I'm doing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a true vocation, a vocational calling or path, there's the passion, there's the skill, there's the desire, um, there's a need.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the community around you also identifies it with you, within you, and also affirms it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so anytime I see like a pastor who's just like, gonna be a pastor, but no one really wants to listen to them, you know, and they want to start it for whatever reason, um it doesn't really work.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually the pastors that the community goes, you have something to say, you have a voice, you have insight, we would love to hear from you.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's sort of what it's been for me.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was a school teacher, I taught for 12 years.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, Joe Dunegan, who's the founder of SWAPOW, and I love that he's the founder because I don't get to take credit for it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's wonderful to be like, this wasn't my own idea.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Joe has been a dear mentor.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: He's not only the founder, but he's sort of a reference point for a lot of the core values we have.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, being uh welcoming and extending hospitality, being um uh a mentor, um, giving opportunities, um, those type of things.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um I was getting a little bit tired of teaching and burning out.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: The analogy was I felt like I was in an eddy.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you when you're a river rafter, after big rapids, there's often eddies at the after them.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of an eddy is a welcome sight when you're rafting a river for a while, but then you start spinning around the same circle over and over again, and you're like, this, I'm not in the river anymore.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm stuck in this eddy.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like that a little bit in teaching.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like it was comfortable, it was safe, familiar, I was well respected, but I wasn't really growing.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so Joe really kind of like uh pulled me out of the eddy and said, you know, it's time to time to go into the main water again.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we started to dream about a nonprofit organization that um used skateboarding as a vehicle to help them grow.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really just uh formal uh formalizing what we've been doing all of our life and applying it to the most vulnerable population that we know, and that's foster youth.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so he came alongside and taught me so much.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: We had all sorts of advocates come alongside.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I remember calling a group called White Wave Longboards on my lunch break when I was a teacher, um, saying that, you know, here's our vision, here's our idea of what we want to do.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he goes, Your timing's amazing.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing on Friday?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, nothing.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, I'd like to donate some skateboards.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, sure, um, I'll be there.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, You'll need two moving trucks as big as you can find.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he made like a$300,000 donation of skateboards before we even got started.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I can tell you stories like we could do three hours of miraculous stories um that I feel like really align to um the fact that the creator of heaven and earth, God, um has a heart for the widow and the orphan.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: And these kids um are modern day or orphans, you know, the foster kids, and God has a heart for them.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when we do work that aligns with integrity to God's heart, the laws of physics are defied.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: You experience things that you would never ever experience otherwise.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, an interesting story is uh the kid I got arrested with, um, Jason Fan, um, just starting getting the articles of incorporation, getting Swaphouse started.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Yeah, Jason, I haven't seen him in 20 years.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what he's up to.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I see a sign um on one of our main highways um here in Arizona for fan contracting.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, hey, is Jason with the company?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and he goes, You mean the president and CEO of the construction company?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: I go, Yeah, do you have his number?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy was like, No, I don't have his number.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I got in touch with Jason.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: I met him up in my small town in Prescott.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super nervous, I hadn't seen him in 20 years.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's very successful, has a lot of influence, has a lot of money.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Try to get him to join our board.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've got this little poster.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even really know what I'm doing yet, but I'm trying to explain our mission and the kids we're working with and why specifically foster youth and the barriers and challenges they're overcoming.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: And Jason goes, Well, hold on, there's the kid.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Well, yeah, the the kid in the poster is actually was at an event up in Prescott.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: We could use his picture because he was adopted.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're allowed to use pictures of kids who have been adopted.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, No, no, lower the poster.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I lower the poster, and the kid in the poster is sitting at the chair at the Starbucks, right behind us, holding the skateboard we gave him a year before.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Jason goes, Did you prearrange this?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't appreciate this.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, no.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, Hold on.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes to the kid and goes, Did he tell you to sit here at 10 a.m.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: and hold your skateboard?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Kids, like, I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's two kids, and the kid leaves.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Jason comes back and goes, I don't join boards, but this is different.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Count me in.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just been stories and stories and stories like that.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: That literally, I could have hired the kid, I could have paid him, he wouldn't have been on time.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was just this like, and whenever I go home and tell my wife about these miraculous things, she goes, Yeah, of course.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so SWAPOW now is eight years in.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're a nonprofit organization that works with youth in three different program tiers.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: We have um one-time skateboard events where the kids just have a positive memory and experience and positive reference point for um, you know, interacting with caring adults.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Skateboarding itself is amazing because you can't be thinking about what has happened or what might happen when you're trying not to fall.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so skateboarding forces you to be in the moment and be present.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the kids who um are in the professional development program make one skateboard that we invite to give away and actually give to the kids coming into our program learning how to skate, because there's something really empowering about giving versus just always receiving.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just amazing.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I just I love that you know, you're you're facilitating this shift from, as you said, from receiver to giver, but also from consumer to creator.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the, you know, the the consumerism part of it doesn't hold a lot of, you know, it's a necessity maybe, but it doesn't hold a lot of value for for the for the psyche, for the heart, you know, for the soul, but the creator showing them that they can actually create something.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's amazing.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to ask you one question um about this process for you.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And because I we hear about people who you know start into a field because of their love for helping people or you know, the one-on-one communication and the re the reward that comes from that, and then becoming a manager and um an entrepreneur, and maybe having to move away from that one-on-one a little bit.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if that has been a part of your path and if it has been challenging for you, and if so, you know, kind of how you've dealt with that.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a reluctant journey of leadership.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've always identified myself as a leader.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times I was like, you know, early on, it was like, I'm not, I'm not an administrative, I'm not a leader, I'm not a business owner, I'm not an entrepreneur.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that just got old.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I started to just realize like, just keep doing the work, you know, and it is extremely demanding.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Starting a nonprofit, um, having a sustainable nonprofit, one that has consistent revenue and is able to um do good work, report on the work, raise money for the work, thank everybody for the support.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's this like cycle that's exhausting.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I think one thing, if it wasn't for all the divine, truly, like on a weekly basis, miracles, miracles, miracles.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I couldn't have done it.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, second, the community that's surrounded around me.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have a really solid board of directors.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have just individuals who they care about me as a person.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would I think of myself often as like participant number one in a lot of ways.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: We use a lot of phrases like affirmation isn't just for parking.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we need affirmation.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we need to be told out loud that we have value and worth.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's partly I've built it that way because I've all of my life wanted to be told I had value and worth.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: I came from a family that was very reluctant to affirm or to validate.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in so many ways, like I said, I identify with the kids.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting in my journey because with once I stopped teaching and sort of transitioned into this role, my mom got really sick and she died.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my stepdad, who I knew for 40 years, essentially walked away, had no interest really in, or didn't have the ability to support me or to care, um, to have interest in my life too much and a slow push away.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're still in touch, but it's very distant.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: He moved out of state.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, I got to experience sort of firsthand, like as an adult, what these kids experience as children.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not to say that it's the same because I have a very strong infrastructure and I have a very strong, I have a good, solid marriage, and we have a son.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was really fragile and touch and go.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: So dealing with grief while trying to run an organization and meet with donors and all of that.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then that voice in the back of my head that said, like, who are you to think you can do this?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do this.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know what that voice that says, um, you can't do this.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I recognize that voice so much that that's I built it into our program.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Creativity takes courage, even just creating a graphic.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who are you to think you're an artist?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And have to ignore that voice and press into the voice that calls us the beloved, you know, that calls us um, you know, children.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, from a personal uh perspective of faith, it's like I need to know that I'm a child of God.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: I need to know that I'm his child, he is my father.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it needs to be like a real tangible, intimate experience.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just like when I was single, I remember telling God in prayer, I need you to be that source of intimacy and that source of companionship that I long for in a wife, but I don't have now.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Could you please be that for me?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of goes back to loneliness at the beginning of this podcast is like, um, where do we take refuge in our sorrow?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think God is always saying, take refuge in me.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: But to answer your question, I um last year I reached a point of burnout.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it was my performance mindset.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want everybody to like me.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: I perform for everybody, and that's part of just wanting the approval of your parents and grandparents growing up, and um, that sort of cosmic proving ground that our work can become is exhausting.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: The work itself is exhausting, um, all of it.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just kind of crashed last year.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: I got a leave of absence, the board uh granted me a couple months off, and I started to recognize that the birds that fly the highest use the least amount of energy, and the birds that fly the lowest um use the most energy, like hummingbirds, and they they burn fast and they also die quick.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: They they get heart attacks.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: The hummingbirds um don't live long, you know.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: And my I do a skateboard graphic every year myself.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just part of the process.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like in the midst of running a nonprofit, I have to sit and actually draft my own design.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Last year it was a roadrunner, and the graphics or the logo was keep going.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I immediately burned out.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so this year it's an eagle, and it says, uh, rise up.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the full theme.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I could tell you all sorts of miraculous stories, uh, rooted in the verse in Isaiah that says, Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength, they will soar on wings like eagles, they will walk and not grow weary, they will run and not be faint.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that verse, like literally um came in front of my eyes multiple times in miraculous ways, and it resonated.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so to answer your question in a long roundabout way, I want to be more like an eagle.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Eagles use thermodynamics, they they glide more than they flap, um, they fly high.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I still, like a hummingbird, want to see the flowers.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to see that, you know, I want to be there too with the kids.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so during my sabbatical last year, at this time, uh, an amazing young man um came into our office to drop off a letter for his dad and goes, What's this?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: All the uh skateboards on the wall at our office in Timpee and um was intrigued.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um he was the perfect fit.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, God really provided the perfect fit for an event coordinator.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So he's our second full-time employee.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: We have a really wonderful team of part-time employees, but Alex Fleskovich has truly risen to the occasion.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he's he's doing a lot of the flapping now, you know, and he's very qualified and capable of it.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: Young.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm more strategic, and I still get to uh go to the events and be there, but I'm just not running it.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not hauling the skateboards from our warehouse, and I'm not um, you know, coordinating volunteers.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I'm trying to balance between strategy, between um, you know, just more of an executive director approach, and also where the life is and the joy is with the kids.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: I helped just last night this kid who's been adopted, who is disabled.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: He's a few fingers on one hand and an arm that's kind of twisted.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's in fourth grade, and um, he's amazing and he catches on so fast, and he's so bright and so smart, had such a good time.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was there just holding his hands as he's learning how to skateboard, and that's so fun.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to try to do both, uh, but I I couldn't sustain what I was doing in the same way I was doing it, which is a big part of middle age.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: What gets us here is not gonna get us there, and so there has to be some changes made, and so yeah.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow, that's so beautiful.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so so much for sharing all that.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's so inspiring to me.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um, if we could switch gears to our lightning round, um, this just helps us get to know you a little better, and yeah, so are you ready?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: I am okay.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: My first question for you is what do you believe in that that others may not?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have a very Orthodox faith, even though I didn't grow up in a Christian family, but I have a very strong relationship with God through Jesus.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's not really popular right now because politics are crazy and Christianity, I think, is like this circus mere reflection in a lot of ways.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't choose it, it chose me, and it's very much a part of who I am and my daily life.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe intimate, I believe in an intimate relationship with a loving creator who wants to be a part of the smallest details and also the big things.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds like you you came uh you came in that way and were aware of it, it you know, like that spark was lit right away, you know.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what was the first?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say album, but I don't maybe like DVD cassette that you bought for yourself.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: That I bought for myself.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the the first album that really like um got my attention, my biological dad was super into record albums.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: He had a full floor-to-ceiling walls of records.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember um having made my own record player as a small child before they were divorced, and Jesus Christ Superstar album, the soundtrack to that movie, um, I played over and over.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why, but I loved it as a small child.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was always influencing, it was mostly 60s, um, you know, rock and roll and stuff, psychedelic rock and roll.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you feel or see energy?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, how would you describe that experience?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was on a plane to go to Santa Barbara to go to the event with you.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my wife was with me at the first start of the event because it was our anniversary.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we get on the plane, and this couple that I'd met a week and a half before was in first class, and they go, Mike, we sat down, turned to each other, and said, We need to get back to Mike Shapiro with Swapau, and you walk on the plane.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Yeah, that's how it works.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I like, yeah, that's how it works.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that same couple, I told the the um Mike, Mike, the guy, uh, I said, There's a I have a best friend who you need to know, his name's David.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how we're gonna get you guys together, but we need to.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: I go to the mall for the first time in 10 years, and they walk by again, and I'm with my friend David and my son, and they go, Mike, like, and so um Mike, I introduced him to David, and we had lunch.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Mike goes, There's this strange energy around you, like there's something about you that sort of like it's just interesting, magnetic in a way, and so I do experience that all the time, like all the time.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those type of experiences have been just especially more in this work, but even before that.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember walking out of a coffee shop in Central Phoenix.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh married, so it's it was less than 20 years ago, and um I go, something's gonna happen.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: I looked up into the air and like something's something's happening.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: I get in my car and I'm driving, and I look up, and these two helicopters are flying, they crash into each other, they fall to the ground and explode hundreds of feet of flames in this field.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kind of sensed that it was going to happen before it happened.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was um in my neighborhood, and my neighbor was walking down the sidewalk.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: This was a day or two after she was crying.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: I go, Are you okay?
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she just holds me.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: She won't even talk for a long time, just crying.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, I don't know if you heard about the helicopter crash, but my husband was in the helicopter.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um I go, Well, I actually witnessed the uh the helicopter crash, and we just like connected on that for a minute, and um, so yeah, I do sense that, and I think like it's you know, the New Testament says the spirit of God is like the wind, and we don't really get to predict or know how the wind moves, but we see evidence of the wind all the time, and I see evidence of the wind all the time, and um, I love like the uh the Jewish commentary uh from the Talmud on the story of Exodus, and they say it says, Um, the bush was always burning, Moses just happened to notice it that day.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I have right out in front of this window a pencil cactus, which in the spring blooms and it looks like a burning bush.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it just reminds me that the bush is always burning.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: We miss it all the time, but occasionally we see it.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know if you ever read like Frederick Biekner, um, amazing writer, author.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just listening, paying attention to our lives um is so important.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, I think probably in like I was talking about my sensitivity to things, I think peripheral vision is also something that maybe I have a gift, but I just see things and notice things that maybe don't most people don't notice.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it literally feels like the laws of physics kind of bend a little bit.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can't predict it, you can't manipulate it.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's mostly just happens and you try to make sense of it.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you don't make sense of it even.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: You just go, I don't know, that's just how it happened.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I do experience that quite often, yeah, weekly.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good case for putting down your phone because miracles want to happen for you too, but you have to notice them, you have to see them, you know.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of the quotes, Frederick Biekner says, um, listen to your life, see it for the fathomless mystery that it is.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: Touch, taste, and smell your way into the holy and hidden heart of it, in the pain of it as much as in the beauty.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: For in the last analysis, all moments are key moments, and life itself is grace.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so all your senses, every moment is a key moment.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna put that in the in the notes because that's beautiful.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, my next question is what do you think of the statement ignorance is bliss?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know people who just walk through life and like they don't realize the wake of wounded people they're leaving in their path.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they're almost just yeah, just oblivious and happy good lucky, and um ignorance is bliss.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't know, I guess some people are just bent toward that.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're a little less, they're more muted, less aware.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think everybody needs to be accountable for how they're living their life and how it affects others, and so um try try to be less ignorant, you know.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I wish I could be that way more, where just like, yeah, whatever.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because as a sensitive person, you sense like when people are mean, harsh toward you or others, and oftentimes I get mad.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have certain people in my mind right now where I'm like, I don't think how you treated that person was good or ethical or fair, and I'm mad.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a lot of people are like, it's mind your own business, just go through life, you know.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've struggled with that a lot.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Ignorance is bliss.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I could be more blissfully ignorant, but I think it's much better to be in tune to our own lives and how our lives are impacting the lives of others, and so I guess I would say, smell the smelling salts, like wake up, you know, don't be ignorant.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um that said, I'm sure that I'm very ignorant about things in my own life and unaware, and I don't recognize the impact negatively that I'm having on people's lives.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good that's a good point to remember.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I feel like if if the bliss is ignorance, it's fake.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not real bliss.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: Probably, yeah.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: It does seem like there's certain people that can go through life, they just seem more they're so unaware and they just like roll with it.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think there's a level of accountability, and um yeah, it'll probably be brought to my attention today areas that I'm sorry about that.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, not sorry.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, last question.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want more of in your life?
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think the thing, the rarest of all commodities on the planet is peace.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if you experience peace, true peace, it's rarer than finding like a really big carrot diamond ring on a sidewalk.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like and when you meet people who are truly at peace, you recognize it almost immediately.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think one of the challenges of being a sensitive person, aware person, not blissfully ignorant, is anxiety.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you are aware of things and you know things don't go well, and you worry for things and worry about people, you worry about your pets, whatever it is, and worrying, anxiety.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that verse in the Bible that says, um, do not be anxious, but every in everything with prayer and petition, present your request to God, and the peace of God that transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and minds.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea of rather than praying to myself, which creates anxiety, pray to God, who actually has some sort of control true control of things in the week.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, if I were to say, like, bring it like more peace, more peace.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the that reminds me of um the advice that my friend Michelle has, who I just interviewed for the podcast last week.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: She said, like uh regarding anxiety and worry about you know things out there.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: She says, they have a God and you're not it.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh which I love so good.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, did did you bring a question for me today?
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I do.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can tell I'm someone that likes to talk.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: We could have spent six hours on this.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, my question for you is how have you grown to become a good listener?
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: What are some what's some advice you have for me to becoming a better listener?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, the I'm not gonna agree with the assessment, the assumption that you're making that you're not a good listener.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I I disagree with that.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um I in my own life uh didn't feel like I was a good listener until I decided to be a good listener.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so for me it was a decision.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much tied up in that being a good listener, because it requires you to let go of you, everything that you want and you desire and you have to say and your beliefs.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just let it go.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: And because it for the time being, it doesn't have to be permanent, but for the time being, while you're in the while you're the witness to this person's story unfolding, set it aside and be fully present and um just be a witness.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I think of listening now is just as a witness, and that the story that's unfolding before you is sacred.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: All the stories are sacred.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how I feel about it.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've been a great listener for me and just in my interactions with you.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uncommon.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: People are just often waiting for their turn to talk, you know.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um thanks for being so thoughtful in the questions you've asked me today.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you you listen well to people.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you so much.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for joining us uh today.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have loved listening and to you and your story because I think it's amazing.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna put all of your information in the show notes so people can get a hold of you if they desire to, and we'll reference some of the books and authors that you've talked about.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so yeah, I just want to thank you so much for the work that you're doing, for the person that you are, and for joining me today.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Michael.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had a great time.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the opportunity.