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228: How Consulting Transforms Your CX · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:58
  Welcome back to the Customer Service Revolution podcast where we help leaders build companies their customers and employees can't live without.
• 1:06
  I'm your co-host, Denise Thompson, and today we're going behind the scenes at The DiJulius Group our consulting work that's transforming organizations across industries.
• 1:17
  So whether it's helping Sandals Resorts elevate luxury hospitality, Tommy Gate re-imagined customer touch points in manufacturing.
• 1:26
  or KeyBank helping them to strengthen their culture of service.
• 1:29
  Our consulting team has one mission, to make world-class service the standard.
• 1:35
  And joining me is the pro at that are VP of consulting, Dave Murray, who spent years helping organizations operationalize empathy, build scalable systems, and create
• 1:46
  experiences that customers and employees rave about.
• 1:50
  How you doing, Dave?
• 1:52
  I am doing great.
• 1:53
  Denise, how are you today?
• 1:54
  I am fantastic.
• 1:55
  Thank you so much for joining us here today.
• 1:58
  It's nice to have you back on the podcast.
• 2:01
  Great to be back.
• 2:01
  Thank you very much.
• 2:04
  Dave, let's start here.
• 2:05
  When people hear customer experience, they often think of retail or hospitality.
• 2:10
  But you, you're working with manufacturers, banks, healthcare systems, even law firms.
• 2:17
  Why is customer experience consulting critical for every industry now?
• 2:23
  What's the biggest misconception companies have about improving their customer experience?
• 2:28
  Well, you're right, Denise.
• 2:29
  And it's interesting.
• 2:30
  I just had this conversation with someone yesterday.
• 2:32
  I was down with a client of ours in Fort Lauderdale.
• 2:35
  They're a newer client and I was just kind of having a conversation during a break with one of their VPs and he was asking about us and who we're working with.
• 2:43
  And you're right.
• 2:44
  A lot of times people make that assumption that is traditional hospitality, hotels, retail, which it is, right?
• 2:50
  We work with them quite a bit.
• 2:52
  mentioned sandals and we're doing a great project with them right now.
• 2:55
  Sandals and beaches.
• 2:57
  But really, our customer base when it comes to the consulting side of our business is anyone who has customers.
• 3:03
  It doesn't matter if they are B to C, business to consumer, if they are business to business.
• 3:09
  Anyone who has customers could and should use our services to make sure that they're delivering a consistent experience to those customers.
• 3:17
  Because any one of those customers has the ability to fire them as a provider, right?
• 3:22
  It doesn't matter.
• 3:23
  They can always go somewhere else.
• 3:25
  And so I think that's really interesting and it gets lost on a lot of people.
• 3:28
  People are surprised when I say that I'm working with manufacturing organizations that I'm walking around factory with a hard hat on, meeting with people.
• 3:35
  It doesn't always click with them at first, but then once we talk about it, then it makes perfect sense that anyone who has customers should be focused on their customer
• 3:45
  experience.
• 3:45
  It's not just going to happen.
• 3:47
  It needs work, it needs focus to get where they want it to be.
• 3:51
  especially if they are struggling with things like customer retention or not getting customer referrals.
• 3:56
  And it really needs to be a focus of theirs to help spur those things along.
• 4:01
  But to answer your question of what do companies find?
• 4:05
  Why do they need to look at this?
• 4:06
  What do they need it for?
• 4:07
  Well, the reality is companies very often, unfortunately, make an assumption that someone in a customer facing role has all the skills, all the tools to do that job very well.
• 4:18
  And that is not always the case.
• 4:20
  And depending on where they worked last, it may be the opposite, right?
• 4:24
  They may not be very good at it at all because they picked up some bad habits at another organization where they didn't like their customers.
• 4:30
  They thought the customers were a pain.
• 4:32
  There's all sorts of bad habits out there that we run into.
• 4:35
  So if you haven't taken the time to really define what you want your customer experience to look like, then you truly have no control over it.
• 4:44
  You're at the mercy of your team members and very often they're kind of making it up as they go and trying to do a good job.
• 4:49
  They're not bad people or bad employees.
• 4:51
  They're just trying to figure out as they go, kind of build the plane as it flies, as they say.
• 4:56
  And that's not always a good thing when it comes to customer experience.
• 4:59
  So if an organization does not have a set structure of what their experience should be, it's probably a great place to start.
• 5:08
  I love that you talk about structure there and I know how critical systems are in what you do.
• 5:15
  You've often said that world class isn't a tagline, it's a system.
• 5:19
  Can you explain what that means and why systems matter more than slogans?
• 5:25
  Well, systems are so important because another thing that we say too is you don't have to turn over your entire staff, right?
• 5:31
  You don't have to find all these customer experience experts.
• 5:33
  If you have the right system in place, you can deliver an outstanding customer experience with your current team members, with average employees, as long as they're following the
• 5:43
  systems, as long as we create those habits, we put those guardrails in place and our people are accountable to those and they're following those.
• 5:49
  You can create a great customer experience and do that consistently.
• 5:54
  as long as you put those systems in place.
• 5:55
  And that's the key thing.
• 5:57
  Most organizations, unfortunately, don't take the time to get people in a room for a full day or a half a day and define what this should be and create those systems.
• 6:06
  And then have that as part of their onboarding or ongoing training for their current team, and then make sure that their managers are holding their teams accountable to those.
• 6:15
  And everything I just said to some people might sound like a little bit of work, and it is, right?
• 6:21
  You have to put some effort into it.
• 6:22
  but boy, does that work pay off, right?
• 6:24
  It really pays off.
• 6:25
  And not just having happy customers, that's nice.
• 6:28
  Of course we want to have happy customers, but it pays off in retention and referrals and real dollars and cents that go along with having happy customers.
• 6:38
  So it's really an investment.
• 6:39
  It's investment of time to make sure that you have those systems in place, that they're implemented, that your team members are following them, that you're consistent, and then
• 6:48
  it really fuels growth.
• 6:50
  Sometimes companies see where their experience, where they're slipping, but not always.
• 6:56
  How do you help organizations identify where they're unintentionally eroding the experience, internally or externally?
• 7:06
  Yeah, well, that's a great point too.
• 7:08
  A lot of times that is internally and that gets missed the most, right?
• 7:11
  A lot of times when we're having, maybe we're losing customers to turnover, having some other issues, complaints are on the rise and we're losing money because we're refunding or
• 7:23
  reordering, whatever those things may be in your world.
• 7:26
  A lot of times we think originally to that customer facing team and that's not always the case.
• 7:31
  What we find more and more and more is that
• 7:34
  A lot of organizations still have silos, right?
• 7:36
  Communication internally may not be that great.
• 7:39
  And maybe there's a struggle between a sales team and a service team, whatever it may be, it varies between organizations.
• 7:45
  But very often we uncover that there are some internal issues that are impacting our external customers.
• 7:52
  And so what we do to help organizations find that when we're working with a client for the first time, we like to start with what we call a discovery day where we're
• 8:04
  secret shopping, we're down talking to frontline employees.
• 8:07
  If they're a phone based organization, we're sitting next to them, listening to calls, interviewing team members to say, Hey, what's working well?
• 8:14
  What gets in your way?
• 8:15
  What's not working so well?
• 8:16
  What are some customer issues that kind of stop you in your tracks?
• 8:19
  You don't feel you have the power to do anything.
• 8:22
  So we really kind of take a holistic look at what's happening with the customer, both the external customer, but then we talk about some of the internal customers as well.
• 8:30
  Who do you support if you're behind the scenes?
• 8:32
  who is dependent on the work that you do and how does that work and what are those relationships like?
• 8:37
  So we really take a full look and start to identify where some of those gaps exist.
• 8:42
  And a lot of times it comes down to communication gaps.
• 8:45
  It comes down to teams maybe not working well together, maybe not fully understanding how they do play a role in the customer experience, right?
• 8:54
  It's not just Bob down the hall in accounting.
• 8:56
  Bob's waiting for that because he has to.
• 8:58
  get that back to a customer and I don't realize that in my role.
• 9:02
  So a lot of times it's organizations having to take a holistic look at the customer experience they're delivering and make sure that everyone on their team understands that
• 9:12
  they're all a part of that.
• 9:13
  They all have some ownership stake in the customer experience.
• 9:16
  Whether they're on the front lines talking to customers 20, 30, 40 times a day on the phone or they're more back of house and they're supporting someone that does, they really
• 9:27
  have to understand that
• 9:28
  We all own the customer experience for our organizations.
• 9:31
  And that's an important message to get out.
• 9:34
  I like at the start of your reply there, you talked about the discovery phase.
• 9:39
  And I know that's something a lot of organizations, you become so close to it, you don't see it.
• 9:45
  Or it's just become the norm.
• 9:48
  It's the way it's always been.
• 9:49
  And so you don't see it because you're so close to it.
• 9:53
  But you are so honed in on that with what you do in the different organizations that you work with that.
• 9:59
  you're able to point things out very quickly.
• 10:02
  think you, when you go through and do a discovery day, in a day, you can find low-hanging fruit even that could have taken them years to discover.
• 10:12
  So what I think is interesting is you do this with not just one brand, one type of industry, but all different ones.
• 10:21
  So we talked about, we had mentioned Sandals, uh Woodward, Tommy Gate, Credit Unions.
• 10:27
  I know you just spoke
• 10:28
  Recently, you did a podcast with Katie from Alphen House.
• 10:32
  You did one with Kevin from Key Bank.
• 10:34
  So all these different organizations, how do you tailor consulting to such different environments?
• 10:43
  Well, that's an interesting question.
• 10:44
  And I find that a lot of times organizations feel that they're in this little bubble and they say, okay, well you worked with Starbucks and you work with Chick-fil-A, that's
• 10:54
  great.
• 10:54
  But here in our world, it's different.
• 10:56
  And one of things that I find is it's really not all that different, right?
• 11:00
  Customers are customers, relationships are relationships.
• 11:03
  Just because you work in the blood donation industry or you work in manufacturing and aerospace,
• 11:10
  Your customers are obviously a little different.
• 11:11
  They might have different needs, but it's still a customer relationship at the end of the day.
• 11:17
  So I think sometimes organizations can be guilty of overthinking that a little bit and maybe over complicating things a little bit as well.
• 11:24
  So that's part of it because a lot of what we do works across industries.
• 11:29
  That's why we work in so many industries, because it's proven and it works.
• 11:33
  But
• 11:34
  There are some idiosyncrasies.
• 11:35
  There are some things that are very specific to some industry.
• 11:38
  So when we go through our discovery, we really have to learn what their issues are, what their customer needs are, what the big complaints are, what they're hearing when it comes
• 11:49
  to complaints so that we can help them be better equipped to do that.
• 11:52
  So there are some idiosyncrasies or some specifics that come to industries.
• 11:58
  But for the most part, what I find is a customer is a customer.
• 12:02
  Doesn't matter if they're a B2C or a B2B, they're looking to get what the value they paid for, they're looking to get it when it's promised.
• 12:08
  And a lot of times it's a breakdown in those basics that's causing issues.
• 12:12
  Can you walk us through one or two client transformations that you've been a part of?
• 12:18
  Yeah, I'd love to.
• 12:20
  So let's see, a couple that I've been working with most, we talked about Katie at Alpen House and they're in the retail space.
• 12:28
  They do everything outdoors.
• 12:29
  They're located in upstate New York based in the Albany, New York area.
• 12:33
  They have multiple locations and they've been around since the 1960s and they do a fabulous, fabulous work.
• 12:41
  And one of the things that when I was on that podcast with Katie that you mentioned that really struck me, it was such a great quote from Katie.
• 12:47
  Katie said something along the lines of, we first started this, it was an initiative.
• 12:52
  Customer service, customer experience was an initiative to us.
• 12:55
  Now it's who we are.
• 12:57
  So they took it, their transformation was to first create the customer experience that they wanted to have as an organization.
• 13:06
  So they created those standards, they created the systems that they wanted to have in place, they rolled those out.
• 13:13
  They focused on it and focused on it to the point now where it is literally a part of their culture.
• 13:18
  It's as much a part of their culture as, as what already existed, their core values, et cetera.
• 13:23
  It's raised to that level within their organization because they systematize it.
• 13:27
  They're doing it every time they're talking about it, constantly reinforcing it.
• 13:31
  And it's really become who they are.
• 13:33
  So that that's really, really important.
• 13:35
  So kudos to them at Alpenhaus.
• 13:38
  another one, that I've been working on with recently is Woodward.
• 13:42
  They are a Fortune 500 manufacturer in aerospace.
• 13:47
  So the airlines are their customer, Boeing, Airbus are their customers.
• 13:52
  And one of the things that we uncovered working with them is one of their biggest issues fell on internal communication, right?
• 13:58
  was the engineering team and the manufacturing team not properly communicating with their folks that were actually out there communicating, their account managers, their sales
• 14:09
  teams.
• 14:10
  And so we made some great progress there and really cleaned up some of the things that were all back of house, so to speak, but we're really having a negative impact on that
• 14:20
  customer engagement.
• 14:21
  And at end of the day, one of the things that we uncovered was if I was an engineer or in the manufacturing, I was kind of back in the labs.
• 14:29
  I didn't really understand or realize that if I get delayed three days, the impact is going to have on you and your customer relationship.
• 14:37
  when you're the account manager.
• 14:39
  And so a lot of times it's literally just making sure that our teams are aware of that.
• 14:43
  They're aware of the downstream impacts of their work.
• 14:46
  Cause a lot of times they don't know that and it's really, really important.
• 14:50
  And so really just making sure that everyone understands the impact that they have and they're focused on that.
• 14:58
  And so, and here's the other thing, when we're out there working with organizations, for example, Denise, as you know, we do,
• 15:04
  a couple of workshops that are specifically focused on internal culture and leadership, right?
• 15:09
  It's really focused on our internal customers.
• 15:12
  And very often when I'm out there doing the workshops that are focused on creating an internal culture that you're proud of, what I hear the most from frontline people, and at
• 15:21
  first it kind of surprised me, there is a real desire for cross-training organizations.
• 15:28
  Team members want to know what's happening downstream and how that impacts me.
• 15:32
  And then what happens when I send it upstream?
• 15:34
  They want to know what's happening around them and how they're a part of it.
• 15:38
  And so the interesting thing is there's a desire for that information that I find in most organizations, but organizations don't take the time to have that a part of their training
• 15:48
  and explaining that.
• 15:50
  And then it creates silos and it creates a poor customer experience very often.
• 15:54
  when I heard you talk about Woodward and how they serve airlines.
• 16:00
  I think there are so many organizations that you work with and their work affects another organization that you could be working with.
• 16:09
  And I don't mean a department, but a whole other type of business.
• 16:14
  So you're working with Woodward and now you're working with an airport as well.
• 16:20
  You have such great experience that I think helps the other organizations that you work with.
• 16:26
  So you mentioned that you were surprised, or a lot of companies find it surprising, how the effect of silos impacts the culture.
• 16:38
  What are other things that surprise clients when they see the power of applying
• 16:43
  customer experience principles to operations.
• 16:48
  I think one of the things that surprises leaders the most is what should be happening on paper isn't always happening in practice.
• 16:58
  So when we dive into kind of systematizing the customer experience, we take a look at what should be happening operationally.
• 17:06
  So what are the hard skills of the job?
• 17:08
  What are the things that I need to get done to get the job done?
• 17:11
  Right.
• 17:11
  Let's just give an example.
• 17:13
  If you call in for support.
• 17:15
  from an organization, they might ask for your account number, your phone number, those are the things that I have to do to get the job done.
• 17:22
  And then we help them create what we call the experiential side of that as well.
• 17:26
  So while I'm doing this, I'm gathering your name, I'm using your name, building rapport, et cetera.
• 17:31
  So that's one of the processes we do in some of our workshops.
• 17:35
  But what I think surprises organizations quite a bit is a lot of those operational might have fallen off the radar.
• 17:42
  Maybe they're not happening.
• 17:44
  And whether we're taking shortcuts, whether we made a, you one boss made a change at one point and, you know, it just kind of fell off.
• 17:53
  There's a multitude of reasons, but what we find is a lot of times what is in an SOP somewhere, a standing operating procedures manual, doesn't always line up with what's
• 18:04
  currently the practice in the field.
• 18:07
  And so it's, it's a great time when we're going through this process to really create the systems.
• 18:14
  for the customer experience, it's also a great time to make sure that we're shoring ourselves up operationally, because they go hand in hand, right?
• 18:22
  We have to be operationally excellent to be a great customer service provider, right?
• 18:26
  You can't be great at customer experience if you have a lousy product or lousy systems, and conversely, you can't have a wonderful product and have lousy service, right?
• 18:35
  Those two have to be married together.
• 18:37
  And so I think that's one of the big things that surprises people, that operationally, they're just not where they need to be.
• 18:43
  or where they think they are very often, which also can be one of the reasons that their customer experience is suffering because operationally they may be lacking.
• 18:51
  So for leaders listening, what are additional early signs that their organization is ready for this type of consulting engagement?
• 19:01
  Well, I would say one of the types of organizations, or I should say client types of ours, that hires us over and over and over are companies that are growing.
• 19:12
  If you are growing, then it's a prime time to put these systems in place.
• 19:17
  Because what happens in growth mode is, and a lot of times CEOs realize this, and that's why they pick up the phone and call us, they realize they can't replicate what got them to
• 19:26
  that point.
• 19:27
  Right, when you're small, when you're starting out a startup, mom and pop, whatever it is, and you have that control and the experience, you have all your people in one room and you
• 19:37
  can tell stories and talk about training and talk about our standards.
• 19:42
  It's kind of easy to get some momentum there.
• 19:46
  But as you grow and all of a sudden you have 250 people and maybe you have three locations.
• 19:52
  that really becomes hard to replicate.
• 19:55
  And that's where you really need those systems that are focused on the service.
• 19:59
  So you can replicate that consistently.
• 20:01
  So people have something to follow and know what to do to deliver the service that you want them to deliver.
• 20:09
  So I think that's a big one.
• 20:11
  If we're growing as an organization and you don't have systems in place, it might be time to do that.
• 20:16
  And I think another one is to really take a look at customer complaints.
• 20:21
  One of the things that we have found is a lot of organizations have a system in place to handle complaints, right?
• 20:29
  So a complaint comes in, we enter it into a spreadsheet, we send it off to whatever department, they hopefully fix it, let the customer know, and then it kind of goes away.
• 20:38
  What we find is a lot of organizations don't do really good job of tracking complaints and looking for trends, right?
• 20:44
  Looking for, this happening more often?
• 20:48
  Are we getting more complaints about this particular department or that particular department?
• 20:52
  So I think a lot of organizations, think a good place to start is to kind of get a finger on the pulse of what your customers' pain points are, the ones that they're verbalizing to
• 21:01
  you, and look for trends and look for ways that maybe you can minimize those from taking place.
• 21:06
  And obviously, we can help with that process because that's what we do.
• 21:09
  But that's a good time to pick up the phone and call us as well when you identify
• 21:15
  what complaints are, and when you start to see some trends.
• 21:18
  And for anyone out there listening who's considering something like this, give us a call and we can have you speak with one of our advisors.
• 21:27
  We're happy to do a complimentary strategy call and, listen to what you have going on.
• 21:32
  Dave gets on calls oftentimes with potential clients or people who just wonder, is this right for me or what other solutions does the DeJulius group offer that might be better?
• 21:45
  And one of the quickest ways to get something like that scheduled is go to tdg.click forward slash Claudia, and you can schedule a call that works with your schedule.
• 21:59
  fast growth companies are so much fun to work with, aren't they?
• 22:03
  Yeah, and because you're not just helping them fix something that's broken, you're helping them build what's next.
• 22:11
  And I always think that's such a great place to be.
• 22:13
  That's good space to be in.
• 22:15
  Yeah.
• 22:15
  And I was just with a client of ours yesterday, Omnio down in Fort Lauderdale.
• 22:19
  They are a high-end home warranty organization.
• 22:22
  So they are an organization that kind of takes all that worry off your plate.
• 22:27
  handle everything when it comes to fixes in your home, whatever that may be.
• 22:31
  So they're a great organization, but they're really in startup mode.
• 22:35
  So I was down there doing a workshop with them yesterday.
• 22:38
  And so we had to talk about, what's current state as we grow, but
• 22:42
  Let's focus on future state, right?
• 22:43
  It's fun to work with a new organization where we're kind of creating the experience of the future, because there's a lot of, here's what we want to do, and there's a lot of
• 22:52
  hope, and there's so many great ideas bouncing around.
• 22:55
  Now we have to go through the process and turn those into the systems and make sure that all those great ideas are doable.
• 23:00
  Some might not be.
• 23:01
  Some might have to go into a parking lot until next year or whatever that may be.
• 23:05
  But it's really great to...
• 23:07
  Create that that future state and and really kind of tailor it to what you want it to be
• 23:12
  You wrote a book not long ago, you co-authored a book with John, The Employee Experience Revolution.
• 23:21
  One of the things you talk about is you can't have a world-class customer experience without a world-class employee experience.
• 23:28
  What do you mean by that?
• 23:30
  Well, I think one of the things that we've learned over the years and one of the reasons that that book needed to be written and we have such a big focus on world-class leadership
• 23:40
  and world-class internal culture these days is I think we learned along the years that
• 23:46
  companies were making a pretty big mistake where they wanted to focus on their customer experience.
• 23:52
  Let's say customer experience was the 2025 initiative, right?
• 23:55
  Year of the customer, everyone's excited, they have a pep rally, and they're putting some training in place, and that's great.
• 24:00
  But what we found is a lot of organizations were doing that without giving any sort of thought to what their current internal experience was, right?
• 24:09
  And if the internal experience is not there, if the internal experience does not match what you want the external experience to be, it's not going to last.
• 24:19
  You can't treat people poorly or have a lousy internal culture and expect people to be smiley and happy and delivering this awesome external customer experience if they're not
• 24:31
  experiencing it internally or they're feeling pressured or they're just not feeling happy.
• 24:34
  And so...
• 24:36
  I think a lot of organizations that that was a big oversight for them.
• 24:39
  And I think for some organizations that were trying to focus on customer experience and it failed, I think that's one of the reasons why, right?
• 24:46
  They just didn't have an internal experience or an internal culture to back it up.
• 24:52
  And so sometimes when we're working with the client and we go do our discovery day, we'll assess, do we want to start externally or do we need to start internally and focus there
• 25:03
  and
• 25:03
  build that internal culture up first that can sustain the external customer experience that we want.
• 25:12
  And very often we'll start externally first.
• 25:14
  We don't work with a lot of clients that can't sustain it.
• 25:18
  They usually have a pretty good internal culture and we're going to shore it up a little bit in some of our workshops, but it's not too often that we have to start there first.
• 25:26
  But every once in a while we do because we realize that to be successful, we need to focus there.
• 25:32
  So,
• 25:32
  I can't talk enough about how much importance your internal culture needs to have, how much importance your leadership needs to have.
• 25:41
  Another thing that I'll share too is that we've learned that initiatives, whether it's customer service, any initiative that you're rolling out, they really live or die with
• 25:50
  those middle managers.
• 25:51
  If the middle manager is bought in and...
• 25:54
  and leading to this and holding teams accountable and coaching in the moment to make sure that they're hitting the mark and following what they should be following, then that's a
• 26:03
  recipe for success.
• 26:04
  But if a leader is, and when I say leader, I mean manager, supervisor, it could be any level, anyone who oversees others.
• 26:12
  If they are not understanding it, they don't see the value, they maybe think it's kind of a pain, it's extra work, so I'm not really gonna talk about it.
• 26:21
  That's how initiatives fail.
• 26:23
  Right, it's that middle level manager that has all that power and a lot of organizations don't realize that.
• 26:29
  They just kind of roll things out and think everyone's gonna be locked up and following it.
• 26:33
  And they don't make sure that their managers have the knowledge, the education, the training to really oversee their teams and hold their teams accountable.
• 26:41
  Maybe coach them up when needed and all those things that are so important to be a manager.
• 26:46
  And so.
• 26:47
  Again, a lot of organizations make assumptions that those things are gonna happen.
• 26:51
  You're a manager, so you should be able to do that.
• 26:53
  And that's not always the case.
• 26:55
  And so one of the things that we do, I think I went a little off topic here, Denise, but sorry, one of the things that we do is...
• 27:02
  going to ask you, how do you fill that gap?
• 27:06
  Great, so one of the things that we try and do whenever possible is whenever we're rolling out any new content.
• 27:11
  So if we've created a new system, a new focus, anytime we're rolling anything out, especially if it's out to the entire organization and to our front lines, we try and get
• 27:21
  in front of the leaders first and do what we call a train the leader.
• 27:24
  So they're not hearing it for the first time with their team members, they're not surprised by it, but they also feel confident in the information, they understand their
• 27:33
  responsibility that
• 27:34
  we're gonna roll this out and we wanna follow these systems and there might be maybe a little pushback or maybe a little misunderstanding at first and we need you to manage
• 27:43
  that.
• 27:43
  We want you to be looking for these things and coaching these and probably the most important thing, reinforcing the positive behaviors that we want repeated, right?
• 27:53
  A lot of managers don't understand that a big part of their job is reinforcing positive behaviors, how important that is.
• 28:00
  But you know, a lot of times it's not in their job description so they don't necessarily focus on it.
• 28:04
  So it's having all those conversations with managers and having them kind of part of the process before we then roll it out to their teams and expect them to manage to it.
• 28:15
  That's great.
• 28:15
  What are some small changes companies can make right now, someone who's listening, to start improving both the customer and employee experiences?
• 28:24
  Well, the first one I would suggest, and we talked about this a little bit already, the first small change I would suggest is just making sure that everyone understands that they
• 28:32
  all have an ownership piece of that customer experience.
• 28:35
  When I'm working with a client for the first time, I love, and sometimes there's people in that first session that are enthusiastic, they're thrilled to be there, they're excited
• 28:46
  about this initiative.
• 28:47
  Sometimes there's people that are like, what am I doing here?
• 28:50
  Why am I in this room?
• 28:51
  And so one of the questions I ask very often, especially in a first time workshop is by a show of hands, who in this room owns the customer experience, right?
• 29:00
  And I put my hand up and I just wait and you sometimes hands shoot right up.
• 29:05
  Sometimes people like, no, that's not me.
• 29:06
  I work in shipping.
• 29:07
  And so in a lot of organizations, people don't get it that yes, you might not talk to a customer directly, but your actions impact our customers.
• 29:17
  Your lack of action could impact.
• 29:19
  a fellow team member who then has to have a conversation with the customer.
• 29:22
  So that's a great place to start, just making sure everyone understands that kind of we're all in this together when it comes to the customer experience, whether I'm talking to them
• 29:30
  20 times a day or once a month, we all have to focus on the customer experience.
• 29:35
  We all have to own it to really make it work.
• 29:38
  So I think that's a really good place to start and start to get that message across your organization if they currently don't understand that.
• 29:45
  I think that's a good place.
• 29:46
  And then I also would just do a quick assessment of, know, I feel that a lot of assumptions are made.
• 29:54
  I brought that up already.
• 29:55
  And I feel like a lot of basics, common courtesy, just get missed, right?
• 30:01
  We become very transactional.
• 30:03
  Phone keeps ringing, same question.
• 30:05
  I have a call queue.
• 30:06
  I have to get to the next call.
• 30:08
  I have an average talk time that I have to keep up with.
• 30:11
  So I'm just trying to get through the calls, get through my day, get to the next one.
• 30:15
  And so I think because of that, whether it's on the phones or in person, I think a lot of the niceties get missed.
• 30:23
  And I think that organizations don't realize that until they take a look and maybe even do a little secret shop, maybe have one of your buddies call in or walk into one of your
• 30:32
  locations, whatever that looks like.
• 30:34
  Have someone do it that's not recognized, do a secret shop and get an understanding of what's really happening out there.
• 30:39
  And that can help you assess what tools you might have to put in place.
• 30:43
  I'm sure we've all experienced that places where the person waiting on you is in a hurry, And some of the niceties disappear.
• 30:53
  Unfortunately, I think we're guilty of that between colleagues as well.
• 30:59
  You you get busy through the day and the niceties disappear.
• 31:03
  you've always been great, Dave.
• 31:05
  I don't care if it's email, Slack, phone call, whatever it is,
• 31:09
  you're always great about using my name.
• 31:11
  You always read, hi Denise, know, everything you start off with, you're, always are impeccable with that.
• 31:19
  Well, thank you.
• 31:20
  And I can tell you it's that that's a habit that has to be developed, right?
• 31:24
  You can't, you can't just hire someone brand new into your organization and expect them to bring that.
• 31:30
  You have to train them that this is how we operate, that we see email as a formal communication tool.
• 31:35
  So we're going to use a salutation.
• 31:37
  We're going to ask how their day is.
• 31:39
  We're going to have a little conversation and then get into the meat of what we're talking about.
• 31:43
  And, and you have to train your team member.
• 31:45
  If that's your expectation, you have to let team members know.
• 31:48
  And again,
• 31:48
  A lot of companies, unfortunately, make assumptions, you worked in customer service somewhere else, so you're going to bring all this to the table.
• 31:55
  And the reality is that they're probably not.
• 31:57
  And if you want it to happen, you have to be very clear and provide that direction.
• 32:01
  And in our case, we helped create some systems so that we're doing it consistently over and over.
• 32:08
  Yeah, and I think there's so much that comes from the top as well that affects an organization.
• 32:14
  I know you've said your frontline will never exceed the experience that your leadership delivers internally.
• 32:20
  That makes a big impact.
• 32:22
  Right, and we also say your customers will never be any happier than your employees, right?
• 32:27
  And that a lot of times comes from the top down too, right?
• 32:30
  And so, I think one of the things that organizations have to focus on, I'm sorry, I'm going a little off topic, I'm going back to employee experience.
• 32:39
  I think that somewhere along the lines, management and managers lost the fact sometimes that
• 32:47
  they need to support their teams.
• 32:49
  Their number one role is to support their teams to be successful, not drive results out of them.
• 32:55
  I mean, yes, they have to hit numbers and hit results, but you really do that by supporting your team and giving them the support and tools they need to do the job well.
• 33:03
  And I think in some cases, and organizations can differ, but I think that's a message that got lost somewhere along the way, especially with productivity and driving results.
• 33:13
  And so I think that's sometimes a message that needs to be reinforced within an organization as well.
• 33:19
  If you're not supporting your team member, if you're not concerned about them, if you're not helping them grow and get better in their role or where they want to go in the
• 33:26
  organization, that's really an important part of the job.
• 33:29
  But I think it gets overlooked a lot.
• 33:30
  Absolutely.
• 33:31
  I want to go back to your role with consulting here.
• 33:35
  And I think you talked about this with Katie when you did the Alpen House podcast, which for our listeners, that was episode 221.
• 33:43
  And I'll have that in the show notes if you want to go back and listen to that.
• 33:48
  But once consulting wraps up, because we don't stay with companies forever.
• 33:53
  Unlike some consulting organizations, you do a project and then you teach them what to do to carry on with it.
• 34:03
  So people don't have Dave living with them forever.
• 34:06
  Dave goes in and helps correct things and then they carry on.
• 34:11
  So once consulting wraps up, how do companies ensure that it sticks?
• 34:15
  So it's not program of the year, flavor of the month.
• 34:19
  So yeah, if we're doing our jobs well, you shouldn't need us forever.
• 34:23
  It's nice that companies like to keep us around.
• 34:25
  So we have a lot of companies that I would refer to as alumni of the DeJulius group.
• 34:30
  They've gone through our consulting and they still call us up and maybe have us come in a couple times a year for a refresher or an all hands meeting and just kind of put a little
• 34:41
  refresher on it, which is great.
• 34:43
  But in theory, you're right.
• 34:45
  When they go through our workshops, we create the content, we help them create the systems.
• 34:49
  They shouldn't need us holding their hand forever.
• 34:52
  And so part of what we do during our implementation, wherever we're rolling anything out that we've created, we really have to focus on building those positive habits.
• 35:01
  And so a lot of times it's making sure that departments are having a huddle, whether it's daily or weekly, and they're communicating.
• 35:09
  about the customer experience and their effect on it and maybe what's happening in the landscape today, whatever that may be.
• 35:15
  And also in the early goings, we kind of spoon feed what we want that content to be.
• 35:20
  across the entire organization, they're focused on the same thing.
• 35:23
  But while we're implementing what we've created, we're really behind the scenes working on creating those positive habits so that they're in place.
• 35:32
  So when, when our agreement is over a year, two years down the road, whatever it is, those habits are in place.
• 35:39
  and they're talking about those things.
• 35:41
  And also, we're helping to train the project leaders, whether they're a project leader, some of them have also gone through CXEA, our academy, like Katie did, she's a project
• 35:51
  lead and went through the academy.
• 35:52
  We're also trying to train them so they can make any needed changes.
• 35:57
  A lot of what we create is not meant to be written in stone.
• 36:03
  Businesses will change.
• 36:04
  You'll get new software, so they'll be...
• 36:06
  There'll be changes in systems and how you operate.
• 36:09
  So sometimes that needs to be reflected in some of the content we created, especially if it includes some SOPs and we're marrying in some experiential along with it.
• 36:18
  So it's important to have someone in place that can keep an eye on that.
• 36:22
  And you could always call us back.
• 36:23
  We'd be happy to come back and help you with that.
• 36:26
  But a lot of organizations we work with have someone in place who owns it, oversees it.
• 36:31
  Maybe they've gone through our academy and
• 36:33
  they know when it's time to, hey, let's get some people in a room and talk through this and maybe make a couple of tweaks.
• 36:39
  We're so good at this right now, let's look at what else we could be doing, right?
• 36:43
  What else can we add in here is a conversation that sometimes take place.
• 36:47
  So our goal is to build those positive habits and really make sure that they have a couple of people, at least one person, if not a couple, that really own it or are monitoring it
• 36:58
  and they're making sure that it's staying alive.
• 37:00
  Okay, so let's get to the skinny here because we know it's not just the head of people who, you know, feels good about all this.
• 37:11
  There's gotta be an ROI tied to it.
• 37:14
  So what kind of results have you seen?
• 37:18
  What can you share with our listeners about what to expect when they create a transformation like this?
• 37:25
  if they have someone like you come in and work with them to improve the customer and employee experience.
• 37:32
  Well, the first thing that we do, and you brought this up a little earlier, Denise, in that discovery process, when we're first working with you, we want to find out what's
• 37:39
  important to you.
• 37:40
  What are your important KPIs?
• 37:42
  What's that return on investment you're looking for?
• 37:45
  And we want to help you create a dashboard.
• 37:47
  And when we create an ROI dashboard, as we call it, we're looking at the return on this investment, right?
• 37:54
  So the return on the investment of us coming in, what are some of those?
• 37:58
  key performing indicators that are going to let us know that we're being successful.
• 38:03
  And what typically happens is sometimes organizations may already have those in place, right?
• 38:08
  They may be using something like net promoter score or doing some sort of other surveying of their customers and having some sort of overall score on, on, on client happiness,
• 38:21
  client satisfaction.
• 38:23
  They may have that they may be tracking
• 38:26
  customer referral rates.
• 38:27
  So a lot of times there might be some things already in place that could guide us through this and help us make sure that we're being successful.
• 38:36
  Sometimes organizations are really starting from scratch and they're not currently monitoring customer satisfaction.
• 38:43
  They're not looking at specific numbers.
• 38:44
  So we help them identify what they could be looking at.
• 38:48
  what they might have in place, maybe from a sales report that could also transfer over into the customer experience.
• 38:54
  So we take a look at that.
• 38:55
  What reports are you running that could correlate to this, but also create a wish list of what don't you have that you'd like to have?
• 39:02
  And can you generate that report yourself?
• 39:04
  Do you need to get a third party vendor to help you if it's something like net promoter score?
• 39:09
  So what are your long-term goals?
• 39:11
  What do you want to measure?
• 39:12
  And what do you really want to have as a return on investment?
• 39:15
  So we help identify
• 39:17
  what reporting exists, whether they have it in place already or not, that can really help quantify that we're reaching those goals.
• 39:24
  But to answer your question, what can they expect?
• 39:27
  You know, it's pretty standard that everyone we work with has an increase in either their net promoter score or whatever customer satisfaction they're working on or using.
• 39:39
  Now, can you take those numbers and extrapolate that to dollars?
• 39:44
  Probably you could probably do some work and run some other reports and have a corollary there.
• 39:48
  we know that we're increasing customer satisfaction.
• 39:52
  A lot of our clients have some hard numbers behind that too, like client referral rates or client retention rates or how we're growing our clients, our existing client base, how
• 40:03
  they're growing within our offerings.
• 40:05
  Are they buying more from us?
• 40:07
  Are we increasing their business?
• 40:09
  from our existing client base.
• 40:11
  those are
• 40:12
  mean, I'm sorry, does that mean referrals?
• 40:15
  Not always, loyalty and increasing their business with us, right?
• 40:19
  So you're buying more from us, you're buying more products from us as opposed to somebody else because you're happy with us, right?
• 40:26
  So you've grown your business with us as opposed to maybe using two or three vendors in the past and we were just one of them, right?
• 40:34
  So that's a pretty common one that we see in manufacturing, we see in banking.
• 40:38
  we see in a lot of our clients that that's a pretty important one for them, that we have your business, now we wanna grow your business.
• 40:45
  We want you to grow with us.
• 40:47
  And that's one that can correlate to this project, right?
• 40:50
  Because we're building a better relationship with you, we're advocating for you, hopefully you're referring for us, you become a client advocate, you've built that trust, you're
• 41:00
  willing to give us.
• 41:01
  a little more leeway if we do drop the ball, you have that loyalty in place, which is hugely important these days because we've talked a lot about in past sessions on podcasts,
• 41:11
  how brand loyalty has been eroding, right?
• 41:14
  Customers, consumers, especially report that they're more willing to go to another provider after one bad instance more than ever, right?
• 41:22
  And a lot of that had to do with COVID and the, you know, some of the issues with the pandemic as far as supply chain and staffing and all those things.
• 41:29
  But the reality is, as we sit here in 2025, brand loyalty is not what it used to be in many cases.
• 41:35
  So building that brand loyalty back is huge that they have that loyalty.
• 41:39
  They're willing to give you that second chance.
• 41:42
  So.
• 41:42
  sure.
• 41:43
  go ahead.
• 41:44
  I was gonna say, we help identify what your most important return on this investment would be and then help you work on
• 41:52
  And I'm sure employee turnover gets factored in there somewhere as well.
• 41:58
  That's another one I think since pandemic has not necessarily stabilized in a lot of organizations.
• 42:04
  It has not stabilized.
• 42:06
  have, we have a new generation in the workplace now.
• 42:09
  I'm, the dad of a couple of them that in the gen Z's work, they just naturally don't stay as long.
• 42:16
  I had a conversation not too long ago with a client of ours.
• 42:20
  And the reality is, you know, the, days of someone joining right out of college and 35 years later, retiring with a gold watch might not be around anymore, but there is some
• 42:30
  real value.
• 42:32
  If you can hire someone.
• 42:33
  and have them stay for two years instead of 16 months, right?
• 42:38
  That could be valuable.
• 42:39
  And so that's a cost savings, right?
• 42:41
  So it's not so much maybe having someone stay here forever, but when it comes to employee turnover, how can we keep them as long as we can because we know that's valuable.
• 42:52
  Yeah, the expense of training individuals has grown over the years too.
• 42:57
  So that's a big one.
• 42:59
  Hey, for leaders listening that want to scale, I know we talked about fast growth before, they want to scale without losing their service soul, right?
• 43:08
  That's such a big thing for companies, especially startups and fast growth.
• 43:14
  They have that soul to them.
• 43:15
  They don't want to lose that.
• 43:17
  What's your best piece of advice?
• 43:19
  So I think you have to identify what that is, right?
• 43:22
  So what are some of those things that make you you, right?
• 43:27
  So obviously you're doing something right, because it got you to where you are and you're ready to scale.
• 43:33
  So what are some of those things?
• 43:35
  And then make sure that you have the systems in place to replicate them.
• 43:39
  Make sure you can't lose them.
• 43:40
  We talked about it already that, you know, we find this very often that on the C-suite side,
• 43:46
  They think certain things are happening.
• 43:48
  They think that SOPs are taking place and the reality is they're not.
• 43:52
  So my advice is to identify what are those things that make you you, whether they're operational, whether they're experiential, and make sure that you have systems in place,
• 44:02
  that they are part of your training, that new hires as you grow are hearing those early and often, right?
• 44:09
  How important they are to you.
• 44:10
  They're part of your growth, part of who you are.
• 44:14
  because that's so important and that's how you can keep it.
• 44:17
  Dave, this has been so great.
• 44:18
  Thank you again for spending the time with us today.
• 44:21
  You have such amazing advice for organizations.
• 44:26
  I always enjoy when we have you on the podcast here.
• 44:29
  No matter what the industry, people, whether you're manufacturing, healthcare, banking, hospitality, legal, as Dave said, the principles of a world-class experience.
• 44:39
  So if you're a leader listening and you're thinking, hey, our company could benefit from working with Dave and The DiJulius Group, schedule a call with us.
• 44:50
  tdg.click forward slash Claudia will get you on the calendar and let's have a conversation about how we might be able to help you or where we can steer you if we're not the perfect
• 45:04
  fit or consulting is not the perfect fit at this time.
• 45:08
  If this conversation sparked any ideas for your organization, share this episode with somebody, share it with a colleague, someone else on your executive team, because every
• 45:18
  revolution starts with one bold conversation.
• 45:22
  Thank you, Dave Murray for spending time with us.
• 45:25
  And do you have any last tidbits?
• 45:28
  I just want to say thank you, Denise.
• 45:30
  I always love joining you for a chat.
• 45:32
  I've been on the road a lot, so I haven't seen you recently.
• 45:34
  So it's just great to connect.
• 45:36
  Yeah, yeah, you have been on the road a lot.
• 45:38
  So your valuable time is very much appreciated.
• 45:43
  Thank you, listeners.
• 45:44
  We'll see you next time.