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The Loophole That Could Keep the Epstein Files Hidden · Question Everything

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Growing up, I loved Advent calendars, counting down to Christmas Day.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Behind each door, a delicate piece of chocolate. But the
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: date I'm counting down to this season isn't December 25th.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: It's December 19th, next Friday. And behind that door is
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a treasure trove of public records.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: The Epstein Files.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: The Justice Department is now mandated to put the files
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: out by next Friday because of the Epstein Files Transparency Act.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Congress passed this law nearly unanimously and President Trump signed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: it just a couple weeks ago. I'll speak for myself here,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: but I'm guessing I'm not alone. I have a bad
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: feeling that we will not get the full transparency this
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: act promises. I'm worried that the Justice Department may come
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: up with justifications to ignore the deadline or they may
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: release material that's already been out there through court cases
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Or they'll release stuff that's heavily redacted. Lots of key
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: information blacked out. After all, Donald Trump has had the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: power since he took office to release the Epstein files.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: He didn't need Congress to pass a law to do that.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: We know he's in the files, as are many other
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: powerful people. I became especially worried about the administration pulling
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: some hanky-panky here after I learned about a, quote, special
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: redaction project. That's what it was called internally. That the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: FBI ran all the way back in the spring. with
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: hundreds of agents working round the clock to go through
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: and do God knows what to the Epstein files. Today
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: on our show, we hear the reporter who discovered that
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: redaction operation by shrewdly fashioning public records requests, along with
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: his trusty First Amendment attorney. So this is like a
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: meta request, right?
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. You're trying to get, it's a FOIA about a FOIA. Yes.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: From KCRW and Placement Theory, I'm Brian Reed.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Stick around.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: A friend recently asked me how important the fight to
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: release the Epstein files felt to me. He said he
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: felt very cynical about it. And I told him I
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: do too, sometimes, because it's often hard to believe any information,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: no matter how damning, can have an impact these days.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: But then I remind myself that lots of Epstein survivors,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: they desperately want the files released. Some voted for Trump
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: based on that promise. And when I think about that,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: this transparency feels very important. As the Epstein deadline approaches,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: I've had a bunch of questions about public records law, basically,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: circling in my head. What information can the government legally
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: withhold from the Epstein files? What can they redact? For instance,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I understand that identifying information about survivors can be withheld
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: or redacted, and the same for information about an ongoing investigation,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: which makes sense. But how can reporters and the public
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: make sure those exemptions aren't abused to keep other important
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: info locked down? Plus, What do we even know is
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: in the Epstein files? As I chewed on these questions,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: preparing myself for what might happen or fail to happen
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: when the deadline hits next week, the person I immediately
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: wanted to call was Jason Leopold. Jason's an investigative reporter
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News. I know him as the FOIA guy,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act. He's an expert on using FOIA
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: to get sensitive files from the government, from CIA torture
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: memos to evidence of abuses at Guantanamo to Hillary Clinton's emails.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: to documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. He often ends up
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: suing the government to get this information. One official once
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: called Jason a FOIA terrorist. When we reached out to
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Jason to see if he would come on the show
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: to talk about the Epstein file release, his team mentioned
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: that actually they had just put together an episode of
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: his podcast Disclosure that answered basically all my questions. They
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: sent me an early copy and they were right. The
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: show is hosted by Jason and.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spend most of my
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: days getting documents from the government.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And Jason's First Amendment attorney.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Matt Topic. I'm attorney Matt Topic, and I fight them
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: in court to open their files when they don't want to.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: This episode just came out, and I want to share
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: it with you here, thanks to Bloomberg and No Smiling,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: who produced the show, for letting us do that. Because
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: not only does it help you brace yourself for the
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: different scenarios that could happen next week, it also gets
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: into the nitty-gritty process stuff I love of how FOIA works.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: and the procedural jujitsu you can use to pry open
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: FBI records. Here are Matt and Jason.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: So, Matt, when we say Epstein files, what are we
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: actually talking about?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: This is a guy who was investigated by federal authorities
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: starting around the mid-2000s. He signed a controversial plea deal
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: and did some light prison time, and then he was
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: arrested again in 2019 and accused of sex trafficking minors.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: And the idea is that those investigations threw up a
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: lot of paperwork, presumably about interviews with victims, evidence, names
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: of associates, and co-conspirators. So now, with the Epstein Files
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: Transparency Act, there's going to be a lot of discussion.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: Of what gets released and what may get withheld.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: So the point of this, Matt, is that over the
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: past year, I've been doing some document requests and following
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: some other FOIA actions related to Epstein. And it all
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: helps us get a handle on what's in the Epstein Files,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: and how the government has been handling them.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: And as you know, Matt, this.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Has been building since Trump took office again in January.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: A lot of Trump supporters want this information out in
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: the public, and Trump seemed to say during the campaign
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: that he'd do that. But by the summer, that was
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: looking less likely. So in July, the Justice Department and
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: FBI released a joint statement that said, it is the
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: determination of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: of Investigation to That no further disclosure would be appropriate
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: or warranted.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Cue the outrage. Yeah.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot of people for whom
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: this is the most important issue in American politics right now.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And you're just telling them, yeah, we changed our mind.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: There's nothing to see here. Move on. Yeah, and this
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: is the biggest political story of the year.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: So, earlier this year, I filed a wide-ranging FOIA request
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: for everything related to the processing of the Epstein files.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: I was really interested in how the records were processed,
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: and I was even more interested within the context of
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: how everything went down with the rollout of the Epstein
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: files earlier this year. What I was hoping was to
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: get a look at what was going on behind closed
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: doors with the Epstein records, going back to the beginning
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: of the new administration. And remember, Matt, just a few
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: weeks after Trump was inaugurated, back in February, his brand
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: new attorney general, Pam.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Bondi, calls a group of right-wing influencers to the White
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: House for an event because she has something to give them.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: They walked out of the White House holding binders.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: And hands them binders.
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: Look at what we got today.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Let's say Epstein Files, phase one.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: See that right there? That's the Epstein Files.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: Bondi has this kind of grand rollout. And so shortly thereafter,
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, I want to say more, like almost immediately thereafter,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: the MAGA crowd rose.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Goes nuts. We frankly assumed this had at least some
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: smoking guns. And now it's a backlash.
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: That's not what's in this binder at all.
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: It's a backlash against Bondi.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: It's a backlash against the FBI. It is the biggest
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: disappointment I think that you'll find.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: Because it turns out that these documents that were in
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: the binder had been previously released in court cases and previously.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Released by the FBI. So it ignited a firestorm.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: This is kind of their own folks, right? They invite
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: all these people that are kind of from the MAGA
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: world and do they think they're so stupid that they're
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: not going to realize that these documents have already been
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: out there? I mean, of course, folks are going to
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: pick over every document. And like, I, it was this
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: just incompetence or was it, did they, were they trying
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: to pull a fast one or.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't think they actually pulled a fast one. I,
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: I don't, I just don't think they actually even looked
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: at any of the files they were going to release.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: And so what happened after that is Bondi, who had
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: been really embarrassed by this, fires off a letter. In
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: a letter to FBI Director Kash Patel, the AG demanding
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: the release of the Bureau's full and complete Epstein files.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: So she's throwing Kash Patel kind of under the bus here. Like, hey,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: what are you guys doing? This stuff has already been released. Exactly.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: And she kind of blamed him for this.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: She says, I repeatedly questioned whether this was the full
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: set of documents responsive to my request. And as she
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: later explains on Fox News.
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: You're looking at these documents going, these aren't all the
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: Epstein files.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: Bondi's letter to Patel goes on to say that she
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: knows there are more Epstein documents. She writes she has
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: a source in the FBI field office in New York
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: who told her so.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: And so a source said, whoa, all this evidence is
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: sitting in the Southern District of New York.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Shock.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: So she then tells Kash Patel that he has until
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: February 28th to have the FBI deliver the full and
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: complete Epstein files to her office.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: And we got hopefully.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: All of them Friday at 8 a.m., thousands of pages
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: of documents.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: And she goes on to say that she wants a
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: full investigation as to why her order to the FBI
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: originally wasn't followed.
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: Cash is going to get me and himself, really, a
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: detailed report as to why all these documents and evidence
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: had been withheld. And, you know, we're going to go
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: through it, go through it as fast.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: As we can.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: So, Matt, as you know, I actually asked for that
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: detailed report, but they withheld it under a FOIA exemption.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: But as I reported earlier this year for Bloomberg, after.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: All this happens, Kash Patel directs FBI agents from the
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: New York field office, the Washington, D.C. field office, and
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: personnel from the Records Information Dissemination Section, or RIDS. Those
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: are the folks that process FOIA requests. And they were
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: all holed up in a facility in Virginia, which is
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: called the Central Wreckers Complex. So what do I mean
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: by processing? Well, when reviewing documents for eventual release, FOIA
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: officers have to determine what can be released and what
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: needs to be withheld using nine exemptions under the FOIA.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: For example, they would withhold information based on someone's personal
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: privacy or an ongoing investigation. And they begin processing these
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Epstein files, right? They're pulling all-nighters. They're working 20-hour shifts
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: just to process the Epstein files. So I was really
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: interested in what was taking place behind the scenes, how
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: these requests were processed, how much money they spent on
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: FBI personnel.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: So this is like a meta request, right? Yes. You're
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: trying to get– it's a FOIA about a FOIA. Yes.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So most agencies, as they're processing requests, they have some
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: kind of a database that they keep track of all
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the steps. Received request forwarded to analyst. Analyst ran search.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: 42,000 search results narrowed with search terms, sent extension letter
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: to requester, like all those little details from a lot
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: of agencies get tracked in some kind of a centralized database.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: And we usually refer to those as processing notes.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: And that's informative because you sort of learn how these
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: requests are processed and maybe even you know, learn about
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: a record-keeping system. So I find that to be good
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: information to get insight into how the agency is handling
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: a FOIA request.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of, like, the updates or
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: texts I get from United Airlines about what's going on
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: with my checked bag. Like, it'll say, like, it's, like,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: all through screening. It's been loaded onto the plane. It's, like,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: it's on the cart, you know? But way more detailed
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: than that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: So I filed multiple FOIA requests over the summer, and
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: then Bloomberg sued to compel the release of these records.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: And recently, the FBI released about 60 pages of emails
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: and other documents I asked for related to the processing
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: of the Epstein files.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: So what do you got?
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: We have a bunch of emails, and they're kind of
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: heavily redacted, but there is still a lot of info
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: in here. And there's some real interesting takeaways here.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: So let's go through the timeline here. So where does
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: the story of the emails begin?
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: It begins in March, early March 2025, this year. There's
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: an email here from the Assistant Director of the Information
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: Management Division. It's dated March 10th. And it says that
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: we are prepared to receive boxes tomorrow as New York
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: agents are traveling to the Washington field office in the
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: morning and will arrive to Winchester, that's the location of
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: the Central Records Complex, where they will start photographing And
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: we will start scanning and processing the physical files. Why
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: do you think that they were photographing the files?
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting because like regular paper documents, you would
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: think they would just scan them. You wouldn't need to
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: photograph them. It suggests that potentially there's some things that
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: aren't like documents. Like there could be physical evidence, right?
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: There could be a, Right. It could be anything. It
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: could be a beer bottle. It could be a hairbrush,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever. Yeah. They might be taking photos of
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: those physical items that you can't scan, but we're just
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: kind of guessing at that, at least for now. Yeah.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: The email goes on to say, once I see the volume,
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: I'll have a better estimate of processing times. Although I
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: suggest we do a rolling delivery to further demonstrate the
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: FBI's commitment to delivery and transparency.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's just funny because the FBI
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: wants to demonstrate to the DOJ its commitment to transparency.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: It also says, by the way, in this email, and again,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: this is very early, it's March 10th. So it says that,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: you know, in a meeting- with the criminal division in
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: New York and Washington field offices, there were questions on
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: the types of redactions the FBI should apply to these files.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: And then there's like just a really long redaction box.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: So do we know anything from these emails about like
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: what kinds of records the FBI was reviewing? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, we do.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: And it's kind of fascinating.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: So On one page, they're discussing FBI search warrant execution photos,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: FBI interview videos, Jelaine Maxwell's prison security footage, time-lapsed video
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: footage from an office. And in parentheses, it says no
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: persons identified and no crimes observed. Street surveillance footage, aerial
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: footage from FBI search warrant execution, police interview videos.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And you're just salivating seeing it. You're like, oh, man. Oh, yeah.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I got to get this stuff.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: And marketing videos.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Marketing videos? Marketing videos.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, this is what's identifying here.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Do we know? I know. I don't know. Marketing videos. Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: It's odd. Is that Mr. Epstein's like– come visit my
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: island kind of marketing videos? I don't know. I mean,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: Out what marketing videos.
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, actually, the other thing that's here is they're discussing
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: the prison video of Epstein before he was found dead
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: and after he was found dead. And they discussed this
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: video and eight terabytes of data related to Epstein. So
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: that is something that they were looking at as well.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: So do these documents tell us anything about sort of
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: the interactions between FBI and DOJ? Because this is a
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: little bit of a tense... This is after the binders
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that really weren't anything new, right? So you got a
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: little bit of an awkward relationship between the FBI and
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: the DOJ. Are they communicating with each other at all here?
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Great question. I mean, on these records, it does not appear...
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: that they're communicating.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: And in fact, there's one email that asked the question of,
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: did you happen to send the results of the below
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: review to DOJ at any point? And the response is,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: we definitely did not provide anything to DOJ, just to
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: HQ headquarters. So it doesn't appear, and this just may
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: be the fact that it's early, at least in these
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: documents that the FBI.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Released, that there's no communication with DOJ.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: But I also want to note that the FBI did
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: withhold 160 pages in its entirety.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Okay. So, not a ton about the DOJ-FBI relationship. So,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: do we learn anything about, like, did they do this
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: in phases? Like, how did they structure the processing? Yeah,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: I see reference to like phase one and phase two. Yeah.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: And so another document here, you know, again, this is
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: all in March. And I think what's noteworthy is the
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: bulk of the work was taking place in March. You know,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: almost a thousand FBI agents and personnel working during the
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: month of March, just plowing through these records. You know,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: there's an email from On Sunday, March 23rd, 2025, 6.43 p.m.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: So you can already see that they're working on the weekends, right?
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: Stand by.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: We have identified more files requiring phase one review. Please
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: continue to refresh as files will be populated momentarily.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: So do we know anything about what those phases mean? No.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the documents don't describe what those phases mean. refer
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: to what what it actually.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Means and it looks like so then upon completion of
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: phase two the fbi is going to provide what they
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: call see-through redaction files for doj review which to me
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: reads like fbi is doing the work of identifying what
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: to redact but they're giving it to doj so doj
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: can see what the plan is is that how you
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: read that.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: That's how exactly how i read that.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So Jason, in March, they're doing all this processing. So
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: what's the next kind of big thing that happens?
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Well, the next big thing, at least according to these emails,
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: is April 15th, tax day. An email goes out to
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: FBI personnel that says Kash Patel, quote, asked for status.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Of all remaining Epstein-related reviews.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Makes sense.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes sense, but there's no response to that email.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: But Patel is weighing in, right? The director of the
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: FBI wants an update. Where are we at with the
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Epstein files?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: So when do they finish the review?
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: So it appears around May 2nd is when they kind
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: of wrap things up. An FBI employee from the New
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: York field office sends an email and attached a document
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: titled Epstein Overview Final that.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Summarized their work.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Well, do we, what does it say?
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, you know, the FBI withheld the attachment.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: No way.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: So they withheld those attachments, citing a number of different
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: FOIA exemptions, such as attorney-client privilege, the deliberative process, and others.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: So they're taunting you. They're taunting you by telling you
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: what's there, but that you can't have it.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: Can I tell you that as I'm reading these files
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: and the subject lines refer to a PowerPoint or a document,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I'm clicking to see if there's any chance that it
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: will magically open up.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Any luck? It did not. It did not. Bummer.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: But importantly to me, this is the biggest standout on
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: these records. So I asked how much money they spent
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: on overtime, for example, for agents who are tasked with
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: processing these records.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: So go to page 14 of the release. Okay. So
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at it. It's a chart. And then the
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: division name column says business strategy and analytics section, counterintelligence division,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: counterterrorism division, criminal investigative division, cyber division, directorate of intelligence,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: EAD information and technology branch, finance and facilities division, human
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: resources division. And then everything else is withheld for secret
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: investigative techniques. that if released would harm some future investigation.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: So these are all the divisions that were involved in
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: the review of the Epstein files.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: And how do we know that?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Because the government released an index of what I requested.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: And the FBI document types is how they refer to it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: And this is a resource planning office. That's an office
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: within the FBI report That documents the premium pay hours.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: And premium pay is overtime, nighttime differential hours, but more
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: or less you could think of it as overtime. And
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: it's the number of hours they recorded on this project, right?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: That's how they refer to it, the Epstein files. They
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: refer to it as a special redaction project.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: And it's during the period of March 17th through March 22nd.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: So five or six days, right?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: So they're withholding from you the total amount of pay
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: across each of those. Right. But they are giving you
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the grand total of employees worked, premium pay hours total,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: and premium expenses. So they just don't want to give
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: you the breakdown, I guess, on the theory that somehow
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you could interfere with an investigation if they knew the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: specifics of how they staffed this up. But you at
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: least know the totals. Yeah, and those totals are kind
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: of stunning.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: There were 934 employees that were involved in the processing
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: and review of the Epstein files. 14,278 premium pay hours
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: worked for a total of $ 851, 344. that the FBI spent
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: on premium pay during the March 17th and March 22nd
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: review of these files. I mean, that's a lot of money.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: That seems like a ton of money to me for
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: the FBI to spend on this. I mean, it wasn't
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: a national emergency.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends who you ask. Yeah, true. I mean,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: I think there's a sizable number of people and I
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: think they probably are skewing towards Trump supporters for whom
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: like this is like, right. So I'm looking at these
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: numbers I'm seeing are 850,000 and that's just the overtime. So,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: you know, it's possible that the overtime might only be
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: like maybe half of the total cost.
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: So you could easily be looking at like a couple
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: million dollars total that people are just working, which means
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: they're not in the field investigating crimes. They're not in
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: the office processing Jason's.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Other FOIA requests. Like it's sort of, They drop everything.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: This is what they're doing. And all this work gets done.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: And then Pam Bondi says there's nothing to see here. Exactly.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: So nothing more is going to get released. Right. So
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: it sounds like by May 2nd, they've pretty much wrapped up.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And then in May, DOJ tells Trump that his name
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: appears in the documents. Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: That's the timing of it.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: And shortly thereafter, we have this unsigned memo saying that
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: they collected– 300 gigabytes of data, which is video, photographs,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: actual documents, and none of that, not a single document
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: from that trove can be released.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: All right. Well, the clock is ticking on the 30-day
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Epstein Transparency Act deadline. So I guess that work wasn't
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: a waste because it's going to probably come in pretty
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: handy pretty quickly. It's a good thing that they already
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: did all this back in the summer. Hopefully, we're going
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: to start seeing some more stuff. Brian here. I hope
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: you're enjoying this.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: After a quick break, Jason discovers a nearly decade-old lawsuit
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: from a defunct magazine that may prove to be a
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: silver bullet for forcing out the Epstein files. All right,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: so I've been promising you that I was going to
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: share More about this device called Plod, which we have
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: partnered with here at Question Everything. Here is one way
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I used it just in the last couple weeks. I
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: had a background conversation with some Senate aides. If you want,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I can give a little overview of kind of what
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: we're interested in, too, just to kind of kick it off.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: I wanted to record it, make sure I had an
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: accurate transcript. They said I could. Plod made an immediate transcript.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: But then I can go right into my app and
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: it just summarizes it really quickly. There are all these
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: different templates you can use to make sense of it.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: And you can ask it questions. And honestly, I just
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: find the AI really good. One question I definitely had
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: as a journalist who is, you know, meeting with sources
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: was about Plod's privacy practices. So I asked the company
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: about this. Plod complies with a bunch of privacy and
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: security frameworks from around the world for data protection. It
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: includes GDPR and HIPAA. I ask if you can control
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: your data as a user of Plaud.
• 26:25
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• 26:26
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• 26:28
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• 26:32
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• 26:36
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• 26:40
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• 26:40
  Speaker 2: It's a question.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I want to segue into what may be in the
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Epstein files.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: So earlier this year, I wrote.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: About the under-the-radar Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that was
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: filed back in, I think it was 2017.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: It's a nearly nine-year-old lawsuit.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: That an attorney named Dan Novak filed on behalf of
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: a reporter for what was Radar magazine at the time.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: this FOIA lawsuit that he filed, they were trying to get,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: at that time, all of the FBI's Epstein files. And
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: in this lawsuit that had been going on now for
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: nearly nine years, the FBI released about 1,200.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Pages of documents.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: And these are the 1,200 pages, more or less, that
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: have been screenshotted and shared on social media.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Is this the same stuff that Was in the famous binders,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the Pam Bondi binders. Exactly. Where people who have been
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: following this are like, what is this trash? We've already
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: seen this. Right. That's exactly right.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: So here's what happened.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I dig into this case.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: And the FBI and the Justice Department essentially withheld the
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: vast majority of records, at least 10,000 plus pages because
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: of an ongoing investigation. First, I should go back and
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: say they denied the request before they moved to a lawsuit.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: They said to the reporter that you need to have
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: a privacy waiver. You need to get Epstein to sign
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: a privacy waiver before we turn anything over.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah. Then he's still alive then in 2017.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's still alive.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: So they're going down the road of privacy waiver and
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: a privacy exemption. They sue, right? And so you know
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: how it is. I mean, we both know how it is.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: This is dragging out for a while. But this is
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: really long.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: This is really long. It's really long.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: The next thing you know what happens is, fast forwarding here,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: but Epstein gets arrested. And so now everything is being
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: withheld under B7A, an ongoing law enforcement proceeding. So they're
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: not getting anything. They're still arguing, going back and forth.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: So these folks just continuously.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Hit roadblocks and roadblocks and roadblocks, and they're just unable
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: to pry anything loose.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: But they're fighting.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: They're continuing to fight, right?
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: I respect that. It's nice to hear you not be
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: mad at other people making FOIA requests and filing lawsuits.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I like when other people file FOIA
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: requests and lawsuits, as long as they're.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Not for the same records I want. Fair.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: So I go into the docket of this FOIA lawsuit
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: that Radar filed trying to make these Epstein documents public.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: And on the docket is what's called a Vaughn Index.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: This specific document is very important as far as the
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Epstein files are concerned. But before we get into that, Matt,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: can you explain what a Vaughn Index is and the
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: old FOIA lawsuit that gave rise to it?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, Jason. It comes from a case called Vaughn versus
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Rosen in, I think, kind of like the 1970s. And
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: what used to happen is agencies would withhold a bunch
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: of stuff And then they would just dump all the
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: documents on the court in the lawsuit and be like,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: here you go, court, you tell us. It's called in-camera review,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: like where the court in chambers, not in public, reviews
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: these documents. So agencies were just kind of like dumping
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: all this stuff. And eventually the courts are like, yeah,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: we're not cool with that. You've got to make an
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: index of what all these documents are, describe them, at
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: least in some level of generality, and identify the specific
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: exemptions that you're claiming for each one of those. So
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: that has become known as a vaunted So it's what
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: it sounds like. It's a listing of all the documents.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: And sometimes the Vaughn Index can have a whole lot
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: of interesting information even if you can't get the documents. Right.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: And we've received many Vaughn Indices in our FOIA lawsuits.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, routinely.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're extremely– to me, extremely valuable just to
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: even have a general overview of what the documents are
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: that they're worth holding.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, who's talking to who and when they're talking. Like
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: even if you don't know what they're saying, it can
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: be really interesting. Like, oh, this person was involved or– huh,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: that timing is really interesting as to when things were happening.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: And you can usually get those kinds of details.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I feel like they're newsworthy and you could
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: write a story out of it.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: You have written stories out of it. Oh, yeah.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: I thought this one was really important. And it doesn't
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: seem like anyone even knew it was out there. It
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: had some pretty damn good detail of what the documents
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: are that the FBI had as it relates to Jeffrey Epstein.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: And obviously it's a sliver, but what would be in
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: the Epstein files that are now supposed to be released?
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: And the index says that the FBI processed but withheld
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: information it obtained from confidential sources, documents, Letters addressed to
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: then U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, Alex Acosta.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: He was the one that ultimately authorized that non-prosecution agreement
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: with Jeffrey Epstein.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Subpoenas to MySpace. Remember MySpace?
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: That's specifically in this Vaughn Index.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: The handwritten notes of FBI agents, photographs, grand jury subpoenas.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: This is all listed out in the Vaughn Index. Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: And bank records. communications with foreign government agencies. I thought
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: that was really, really interesting. Of course, there are 302s.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Tell everyone what an FBI 302 is. FBI 302 is
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: a summary of an FBI interview with someone.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: So in this Vaughn index, so I counted, right?
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Because it describes the 302s here.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: And mind you, this index relates to the investigation that
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: the Justice Department and FBI took on between 2006 and,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: you know, when Epstein pleaded guilty in 2008.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: So I counted and it reveals that the FBI.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: Conducted, at least according to this bond index, 55 interviews
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: with witnesses, victims, potential investigative targets, and importantly, bank records. So,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm hoping we get a chance to see those.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: But here's what I like really zeroed in on is
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: that It shows that some of the documents that were
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: processed and withheld from Radar magazine are from 2011 and
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: include dozens of photographs and agents' interview summaries of third
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: parties and documents provided to the FBI by confidential sources.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: That's 2011. 2011. He gets charged in 2019? No.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: So we're only talking about the first investigation, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: 2006 through 2008.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: But it looks like the FBI never really closed it,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: is that it remained active because there's documents from 2011.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: So I just wanted to get your take on this
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: because we've dealt with the FBI a lot. Do you
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: think that people may have just been coming in and
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: just collecting evidence and submitting it to the investigative file?
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: Or could this be kind of evidence that the FBI
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: still had an active investigation in 2011, three years after
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Epstein had pled guilty and at that point was already
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: out of jail?
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's pretty hard to tell. I mean, it
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: wouldn't surprise me if victims and others continued to come
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: to the FBI for good reason, dissatisfied with the minimal
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: punishment that he had gotten to that point. And whether
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the FBI did anything with that, we really don't know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: unless the Vaughn Index shows more activity at the time.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: But if all you have is a listing of a
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: bunch of 302s of witness interviews, it's hard to really
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: say if they were actively investigating or just sort of
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: passively receiving information. Right. Yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: And based on my reporting, the FBI doesn't typically close investigations.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: They're sort of keeping it open. That's just my experience.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Right. For these circumstances, that would make perfect sense. Yeah.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: And I didn't see anything in the Vaughn index that
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: indicated there was like a case closing memorandum, an actual
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: document there.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: So I dug into this over the summer.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: This was during that time where everyone was just kind
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: of clamoring these Epstein files because this was immediately after
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: the Justice Department, FBI said, we're not going to release anything.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: So now Radar Magazine is eight years into its.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: Lawsuit to get the Epstein records.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: At this point, they know the FBI has reviewed the
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: records and the FBI and the DOJ say they're not
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: going to release more records. So the radar lawsuit has
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: some new urgency. It looks like they have a pretty
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: clear path to say, you have to release the records.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: But then, Jelaine Maxwell... appeals her case. Delaine Maxwell, we
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: now see that her attorney renewing his request for the
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court to overturn her conviction. So there's Radar Magazine
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: again with like, oh man, this is still an ongoing
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: law enforcement proceeding.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: So they still can't get anything.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: And now that the Supreme Court has rejected Maxwell's petition,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Dan Novak and Radar Magazine has now appealed to the
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Second Circuit. And so there's an oral argument set for
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: January 28th.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: So I still think, Matt, I just want to see
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: what you think.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: This FOIA case is the best, actually the best chance
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: of getting anything from the Epstein Files versus Congress's Epstein
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Files Transparency Act.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for a couple of reasons. I mean, first,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I think that the Vaughn Index is going to be
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: a check on whatever gets released. Like if you see
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: that there's things on the Vaughn Index that don't get released,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: then there's some explaining to do, right? But the lawsuit
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: also has teeth. The Epstein Act has no teeth. If
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: DOJ decides to violate it, there's no private cause of action.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: You and I can't file a lawsuit over that. You
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: need to have a FOIA case. And so So that
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: case could end up being the legal vehicle by which
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: the Epstein Act release actually gets challenged. I mean, there's
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: so many twists and turns to this and like people
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: get charged and people die and it impacts what can
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: be withheld or not. And it's up and down on
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: appeal and all this stuff going on. And so that's
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: got to be frustrating to go on for that long.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: But now it's it's it's. it almost turns out it
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: does turn out. It's great that there is a live
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: active FOIA case right now that can be the vehicle
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: by which if the DOJ is trying to get away
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: with withholding things, that's how they can be held accountable
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: for that and how courts can guarantee and the public
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: can guarantee that they're actually releasing everything that they're supposed
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: to release because the track record ain't.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: That great so far. That's kind of how I felt
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: It's like this is really the best– course of action
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: for the public to kind of see what's going on.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: It will be interesting if the government argues that, well,
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump is now called for an investigation into Democrats,
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: so we're going to keep withholding this because of an
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: ongoing investigation.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's, you know, I mean, it depends on
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: how bold they are on trying to make those withholdings.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: And I think they're Given the memo from July, if
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I was representing you right now in a case on
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: this and they said, oh, well, there's these investigations, I
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: think you can make the argument that's a sham. They
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: already said that there isn't any predicate to investigate anybody else.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: And DOJ and FBI said in their joint statement from July, quote,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: there was also no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: prominent individuals as part of his actions. We did not
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third party.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: So the fact that they're now claiming they're going to
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: do an investigation, it's not a real investigation. So it
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't count for FOIA purposes. That's how I would argue it.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think there's a fair chance of
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: succeeding on that, but no guarantees.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, the timing couldn't be better for Radar Magazine, right?
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: They filed this back in 2017.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: So they're coming up on nine years.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: That's a really long time.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: But man, the fact that they're still fighting at this
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: very moment where the FCN files have become the biggest
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: political story of the year, that's wild. So as I mentioned,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: there's a hearing in the Second Circuit, an oral argument
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: that's scheduled for January 28th.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Let me just explain. That's the Court of Appeals that
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: covers the trial courts that are in New York and
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: some other adjacent states. The country is divided into a
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: series of different regional courts of appeal. So it's above
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the trial court and it's before the Supreme Court. An
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: oral argument? Explain it, Matt. Oral argument is the parties
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: have filed their briefs and then they come in and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: they answer the judge's questions and they make their arguments.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: And those are open to the public. I got a
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: feeling that's going to be a packed courtroom with overflow rooms. Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting because it's coming, you know, it's happening
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: right after kind of the deadline for when the Justice
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Department is supposed to turn over everything in the Epstein files.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: So I just want to ask you this question, Matt.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: So let's say the Justice Department does turn over everything
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: in the Epstein files to Congress as they are required
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: to do under the law. Would those same records be
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: responsive to this FOIA lawsuit?
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Well, the scope of that request was like all records
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: from the FBI's investigation, right? All documents relating to the
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: FBI's investigation and prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein. Now, they made
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the request in 2017. Yeah. There could be a dispute
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: about whether documents after that date get included or not.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, it certainly would be cut off at whatever
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: point the FBI searched. Then that would typically be the cutoff.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's the date of the request. Sometimes it's whenever
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: they do the search. So there could be some later
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: stuff like, you know, because when did he die? 2019? 2019. Yeah.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: So there's a couple of years. 2019. There may be
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a delta. Well, I guess we'll
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: see what happens later.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Whether or not the Justice Department releases the Epstein files
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: to Congress.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And I guess we'll see what happens in late.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: January in the radar FOIA lawsuit for the FBI's.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Files on Epstein.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: That was Jason Leopold and Matt Topic, the hosts of
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the podcast Disclosure from Bloomberg and No Smiling. You should
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: definitely check out Disclosure at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or you
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: know the drill, wherever you get your podcasts. There's more
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: there about Jason's Epstein reporting next. And also the story
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: of the so-called Doge Kids, a group of like four
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: or five 20-somethings with no experience working in government who
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: went into USAID and started firing and dismantling the entire
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: agency that's been around for decades. Fascinating stuff. Disclosure is
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: produced by Heather Schroing and Sean Cannon for No Smiling.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: The Bloomberg editor is Jeff Grocott. The executive producers for
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg are Sage Bowman and Jason Leopold. The executive producers
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: for No Smiling are Sean Cannon, Heather Schroing, and Matt Toppik.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: The Disclosure theme song is by Nick, with additional music
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: by Nick and Epidemic Sound. Sound design and mixing by
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Sean Cannon. Question Everything's managing editor is Kevin Sullivan. Our
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: executive producers are me and Robin Simeon. Associate production this
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: week by Emma Grillo. Our fact checker is Annika Robbins,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: and mixer and sound designer is Brendan Baker. Join us
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Question Everything, where we
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: go deep into my favorite topic on Back on My Bullshit,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Section 230. We're going to tell you the story of
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: how this law got created in the early days of
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: the internet and talk to someone who disagrees pretty strongly
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: with my view that it needs to be revamped.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: See you then.