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Widow Erika Kirk Breaks Silence @ Charlie Kirk Death Penalty Hearing · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Tonight, wife now widow Erica Kirk breaks her silence at
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  Speaker 1: the Charlie Kirk death penalty hearing. This as conspiracy theories
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  Speaker 1: ignite online and this is after evidence was previewed at
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  Speaker 1: the hearing. What is wrong with these people? Good evening.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Charlie Kirk, he was
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  Speaker 1: shot dead. He was assassinated in plain view.
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  Speaker 2: And it appeared that that's where a sniper had laid
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  Speaker 2: down with a direct shot of where Charlie Kirk was standing.
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  Speaker 1: There is a second gun defense.
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  Speaker 2: So it was pretty easy access. Really, anybody could have
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  Speaker 2: gotten up on that roof.
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  Speaker 3: If convicted, do you think your husband's killer should get
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  Speaker 3: the death penalty?
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  Speaker 4: I do not want this.
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  Speaker 4: Man's blood on my ledger when I stand before the Lord.
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  Speaker 4: I want the government to decide. There were cameras all
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  Speaker 4: over my husband when he was murdered. There have been
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  Speaker 4: cameras all over my friends and family mourning. There have
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  Speaker 4: been cameras all over me analyzing my every move. We
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  Speaker 4: deserve to have cameras in there. Why not be transparent?
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  Speaker 4: There's nothing to hide. I know there's not because I've
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  Speaker 4: seen what the case is built on. Let everyone see
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  Speaker 4: what true evil is. I never saw the video. I
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  Speaker 4: never will see it. I never want to see it.
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  Speaker 4: There's certain things you see in your life that you
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  Speaker 4: can never unsee. There's certain things you see in your
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  Speaker 4: life that mark your soul forever. I don't want my
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  Speaker 4: husband's public assassination to be something I ever see. I
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  Speaker 4: don't want my kids to ever see that.
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  Speaker 1: Erica Kirk, wife, now widow, speaking to Jesse Waters at Fox. Tonight,
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  Speaker 1: as we go to air, we learn that a bombshell
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  Speaker 1: lawsuit has been filed by the Kirk family against UVU,
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  Speaker 1: claiming that the university knew of the rooftop security risk
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  Speaker 1: before the assassination. Look at that. It is SOP, standard
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  Speaker 1: operating procedure, before a major speaker at an event that
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  Speaker 1: safety precautions are taken. The Kirk family is now alleging
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  Speaker 1: in written documents the university knew of the rooftop security
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  Speaker 1: risk before the assassination and did nothing. They also allege
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  Speaker 1: campus police had no written security plan, and only had
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  Speaker 1: six officers for 3,000 spectators? Six officers for 3,000 spectators.
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  Speaker 1: How can you even attempt to guarantee the speaker's safety
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  Speaker 1: with 3,000 people? Now, granted, granted, Nate Eaton joining me
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  Speaker 1: news director at East Idaho News, Emmy-nominated journalist, star of
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  Speaker 1: Courtroom Insider on YouTube. Nate, they're largely college students who
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  Speaker 1: have a low, statistically low, crime rate amongst them. But
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  Speaker 1: someone like Kirk attracts all sorts of people, not just
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  Speaker 1: the students that attend that college. And in these bombshell
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  Speaker 1: legal filings that have just gone down, The Kirk family
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  Speaker 1: is claiming, and I haven't even gotten to what happened
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  Speaker 1: in the hearing. I'm going to get to that. But
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  Speaker 1: this filing has just happened. Six officers for 3,000 people
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  Speaker 1: and that they knew about that rooftop security risk and
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  Speaker 1: did nothing?
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  Speaker 2: Tyler Robinson wasn't a college student at the university. He
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  Speaker 2: was able to go onto the campus. I've been on
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  Speaker 2: that campus, Nancy. You can walk without having to do anything.
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  Speaker 2: climbing without having to jump over really anything and get
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  Speaker 2: on that rooftop. They're saying that there was no drone
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  Speaker 2: flown over the crowd, that there was no security checkpoints
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  Speaker 2: like bag checks where they check your bags as you
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  Speaker 2: walk in. There were no metal detectors, that there was
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  Speaker 2: no security parameter, that it was basically kind of a free-for-all.
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  Speaker 2: Whoever wanted to come onto the campus, walk onto the
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  Speaker 2: campus and attend that event, they were welcome to do so.
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  Speaker 1: Kirk's family has filed a notice. That's a precursor to
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  Speaker 1: a lawsuit against Utah Valley University claiming that there was
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  Speaker 1: a huge deficit in campus leadership and security decisions. And
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  Speaker 1: those failures led to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And
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  Speaker 1: they go on to state, and I quote, the risk
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  Speaker 1: of a rooftop shooter should have been top of mind
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  Speaker 1: given the attempted assassination of the president. by a rooftop
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  Speaker 1: shooter just one year before. They also state that the
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  Speaker 1: students informed them of the rooftop access to the Sorenson
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  Speaker 1: Center pretty close to where Kirk was speaking. They had
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  Speaker 1: to learn that from the students for Pete's sake. Tonight,
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  Speaker 1: conspiracy theories blowing up. even after the preliminary hearing in
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  Speaker 1: which the evidence is laid out. Now, I want to
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  Speaker 1: go specifically to Tyler Robinson's roommate, his alleged lover and furry,
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  Speaker 1: don't care about that, Lance Twiggs, there's Twiggs, his testimony,
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  Speaker 1: a video, the family had to fight fight to make
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  Speaker 1: it public. I want you to see a tiny bit
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  Speaker 1: of that.
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  Speaker 5: My name is Lance Twiggs.
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  Speaker 6: And do you know Tyler Robinson?
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  Speaker 7: Yes, I do. Yeah, I do.
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  Speaker 5: And this is the same.
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  Speaker 6: Tyler Robinson that's been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk?
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: All right, so you said when you first met, you
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  Speaker 6: were roommates?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
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  Speaker 6: And then at some point, your relationship progressed to something
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  Speaker 6: more than just roommates, is that right?
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 6: When was that?
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  Speaker 5: I think we started dating two or three months after
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  Speaker 5: he moved in.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 6: And where did you live at that time?
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  Speaker 5: St. George in an apartment complex. And is that.
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  Speaker 6: Apartment the same place you lived on September 10th?
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  Speaker 8: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: Do you recognize that on the screen there?
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  Speaker 9: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: What do you.
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  Speaker 3: Recognize it as?
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  Speaker 5: That was the note.
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  Speaker 10: Under his keyboard that he was referring to in the
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  Speaker 10: first text of that chain.
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  Speaker 5: So where did you find this?
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  Speaker 10: On his desk underneath his computer keyboard.
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  Speaker 6: And I assume you read it?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 6: And then what did you.
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  Speaker 5: Do with it after you read it?
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  Speaker 10: I believe I just put it back down on the
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  Speaker 10: desk after I took a picture of it.
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  Speaker 1: Straight out to Nate Eaton, that from East Idaho News.
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  Speaker 1: What did the lover, the roommate, find under the keyboard?
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  Speaker 2: It was a note that Robinson had left him and
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  Speaker 2: it said, if you're reading this per my text, I'm
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  Speaker 2: so sorry. And then he goes on to say, I
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  Speaker 2: had the opportunity to take Charlie Kirk out and I
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  Speaker 2: took it. I wish we could have lived in a
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  Speaker 2: world where this was not necessary. He told Twigs allegedly
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  Speaker 2: to burn the note. You saw some remnants of it there.
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  Speaker 2: And then Lance Twiggs, before he burned it, actually took
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  Speaker 2: a photo of it. That's why we know what's on
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  Speaker 2: the note. And it was basically his final note to
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  Speaker 2: his lover, should he end up dead or in prison,
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  Speaker 2: which he said might be a possibility, and that this
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  Speaker 2: was part of his mission, that he needed to take
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  Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk out.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious. To veteran defense attorney Sky Lazaro
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  Speaker 1: joining us out of this jurisdiction, Sky, So the lover,
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  Speaker 1: the loyal lover, burns a note but takes a picture
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  Speaker 1: of it on his phone.
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  Speaker 11: Why?
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  Speaker 12: Not so loyal.
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  Speaker 13: I don't know that we can answer the question of
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  Speaker 13: why as to that. There's a lot of weird intricacies
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  Speaker 13: between these two that weaves throughout all of the evidence.
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  Speaker 13: Lance Twigg's DNA was found on a lot of, things
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  Speaker 13: that were recovered from the scene as well.
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  Speaker 1: Put her up. So are you trying to insinuate that
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  Speaker 1: Lance Twiggs did this or he was part of it?
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  Speaker 13: Lance Twiggs has not been charged. I'm not insinuating anything,
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  Speaker 13: but there's some discrepancies.
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  Speaker 1: Well, his DNA was all over the evidence. I believe
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  Speaker 1: I heard that. Did I hear that, Jackie? Yes, I
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  Speaker 1: did hear that. You said it.
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  Speaker 4: I did.
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  Speaker 13: And his DNA was found on the evidence that was
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  Speaker 13: testified to at the preliminary hearing. So, Wherever that evidence
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  Speaker 13: came from or wherever that DNA came from, Lance Twiggs
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  Speaker 13: was able to give a recorded statement under the preliminary
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  Speaker 13: hearing rules in Utah. He wasn't subject to cross-examination. So
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  Speaker 13: I think things could change in this case.
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  Speaker 5: Because of that. Okay.
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  Speaker 14: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're saying. Have you ever
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  Speaker 1: heard the phrase word salad? Because I think that's what
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  Speaker 1: that just was. I'm going to put some ranch on it.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to chew it up and spit it out. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So I ask you, why did Lance Twiggs burn the
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  Speaker 1: note yet take a picture of it that anybody can
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  Speaker 1: get from the cloud? So he, in effect, saved the note.
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  Speaker 1: I guess that's for a shrink. But then you go
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  Speaker 1: on to say, well, his DNA was all over everything.
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  Speaker 1: In our world, every piece of evidence is or is
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  Speaker 1: not probative. So you bring up that the roommate, the
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  Speaker 1: lover's DNA, is on some of the murder artifacts, the
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  Speaker 1: towel that was wrapping the murder weapon. What is your
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  Speaker 1: point to saying that? Are you suggesting twigs would or
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  Speaker 1: could have been named as a co-defendant?
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  Speaker 13: I think there's a possibility. And why else would you
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  Speaker 13: keep a picture of a note other than if you
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  Speaker 13: needed it for something in the future?
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  Speaker 1: Exactly. Okay, you just hit the nail on the head.
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  Speaker 15: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: John Delatore joining us in addition to Sky Lazaro and
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  Speaker 1: Nate Eaton, psychologist, mediator, specialty forensic psychology. You can find
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  Speaker 1: them at resolutionfcs.com. Dr. Delatore, why do people keep murder artifacts?
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  Speaker 1: Why ostensibly destroy the evidence? Let's see that again, please,
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  Speaker 1: control room. Destroy the evidence by burning it. Drama, drama.
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  Speaker 1: But then take a picture of it so it is
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  Speaker 1: preserved forever. Is it like the serial killers that keep
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  Speaker 1: mementos like their victims' driver's licenses or jewelry or underwear?
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  Speaker 1: Why keep something so damning?
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  Speaker 11: Yeah, I think when you're talking about someone keeping an
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  Speaker 11: item to remember, I think that's one element. Unfortunately, most
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  Speaker 11: people aren't real criminogenic in their thinking. They're not really criminals.
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  Speaker 11: I think he may have thought he was doing the
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  Speaker 11: right thing by burning it, but he wanted to keep
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  Speaker 11: something to help him remember what exactly it was that
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  Speaker 11: was on that note. That Yes, it's some kind of memorial,
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  Speaker 11: but it's more about whatever their lived experience was together.
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  Speaker 11: When you read that, you think you're never going to
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  Speaker 11: see that person who wrote that letter again.
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  Speaker 1: This ain't a love letter, Deletory.
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  Speaker 11: It doesn't matter if it's not a love letter.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like a World War II widow that kept
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  Speaker 1: her husband's letters from Europe.
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  Speaker 11: Decided to keep these kinds of things, not knowing because
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  Speaker 11: they didn't watch The Wire, right? They didn't see, you
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  Speaker 11: don't keep notes on a criminal conspiracy. So this is
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  Speaker 11: just something that he decided to keep because he wanted
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  Speaker 11: to remember his loved one.
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  Speaker 10: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: I don't agree with you. I don't know why he
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  Speaker 1: kept it. I tend to agree more with Skyla Zorro
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  Speaker 1: that maybe he would need it in the future. But
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  Speaker 1: Chris McDonough joining us, veteran homicide detective. He is the
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  Speaker 1: star of The Interview Room on YouTube. He's director of
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  Speaker 1: the Cold Case Foundation. with over 300 homicide investigations under
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  Speaker 1: his belt. I don't know why he did it, and
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  Speaker 1: the state never has to prove the motive, although a
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  Speaker 1: jury likes to hear it. I don't have to go
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  Speaker 1: bungling around in his head to figure out what this lover, roommate,
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  Speaker 1: whatever was thinking. All I know is he preserved it,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm going to use it. But aren't we happy
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  Speaker 1: he did? Because if he didn't, can you imagine that?
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  Speaker 1: The problems, we would have a trial trying to get
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  Speaker 1: those burned up, tattered bits into evidence, much less trying
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  Speaker 1: to decipher what they said. And the defense would argue
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  Speaker 1: like H-E-double-L. No, that's not what it said. But here
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  Speaker 1: we see what it says. If you are reading this,
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  Speaker 1: he talks about his mission, that he had a chance
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  Speaker 1: to take out Charlie Kirk. I wish we lived in
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  Speaker 1: a world where this wasn't necessary. If we did not
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  Speaker 1: have this photographic evidence, technical Latin term, the state would
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  Speaker 1: be screwed.
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  Speaker 4: Hey.
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, no, 100%. This is critical evidence that the state
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  Speaker 8: needs to get into, you know, into the chain of
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  Speaker 8: custody here for the jury. Because there's a couple of
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  Speaker 8: things going on here. Obviously, there's a thought process of,
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  Speaker 8: is this guy involved, i.e.
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  Speaker 1: Twigs?
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  Speaker 8: And then the state needs to also say, okay, well,
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  Speaker 8: if Tyler wrote this, who's going to testify about that?
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  Speaker 8: So you have potentially an accessory after the fact lining
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  Speaker 8: up under the law. And that's why immunity came into
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  Speaker 8: the conversation here with twigs. They had to put that
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  Speaker 8: on the table to get that into evidence as a whole.
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  Speaker 1: I wonder if they're going to end up putting twigs
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  Speaker 1: on the stand to identify Tyler Robinson as being that
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  Speaker 1: person that we just saw coming down off the roof.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about the preliminary hearing that has just gone down,
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  Speaker 1: yet conspiracy theorists are still going mad, igniting social media
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  Speaker 1: with all their zany ideas about, quote, the real, there's
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  Speaker 1: the real killer right there, and it's Tyler Robinson. According
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  Speaker 1: to what he wrote and said to Lance Twiggs. We've
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  Speaker 1: got a lot more about what went down in that courtroom,
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  Speaker 1: but I want you to hear more of what Lance
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  Speaker 1: Twiggs says under oath. And remember, the Kirk family had
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: to fight tooth and nail to get this video broadcast live.
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  Speaker 1: to have it admitted in court, played in court.
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  Speaker 12: Why?
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  Speaker 1: Why was that so difficult? You'd think that this video
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  Speaker 1: would settle all the conspiracy theories once and for all,
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  Speaker 1: but sadly it hasn't. You decide. Watch Lance Twiggs.
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  Speaker 6: Did you see Pio Weber on September 11th?
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: When did you first see him on September 11th? So
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  Speaker 6: this is the day after the shooting?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I saw him when I woke up. Like I said,
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  Speaker 5: he was... up and around doing a lot of stuff
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  Speaker 5: around the house.
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  Speaker 6: Did he talk about what he had done?
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  Speaker 5: Didn't go into detail.
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  Speaker 10: I just asked him in person if what he said
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  Speaker 10: was true the night before, and he said it was.
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  Speaker 10: I started crying a little bit and said he wishes
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  Speaker 10: he hadn't done it. And then kept going around and
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  Speaker 10: just doing stuff, I think, to keep himself busy or
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  Speaker 10: distracted or something.
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  Speaker 3: Did he talk about what he was going to do next?
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  Speaker 10: Eventually said that he would talk to his parents or
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  Speaker 10: turn himself over.
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  Speaker 1: There again, you have the lover, the roommate, Lance Twiggs,
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  Speaker 1: describing what Tyler Robinson said to him. Did you hear that,
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  Speaker 1: Dave Mack? He, Tyler Robinson, quote, cried a little and
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  Speaker 1: wished he hadn't done it. I mean, what more does
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  Speaker 1: a jury need? And yet people online are, and not
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  Speaker 1: just online, everywhere, are claiming that the wrong person was
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  Speaker 1: arrested and is being prosecuted. What is wrong with them?
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  Speaker 12: Nancy, it boggles my mind how people have too much
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  Speaker 12: time on their hands and access to information that they
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  Speaker 12: just twist and turn. Because you pointed it out. You
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  Speaker 12: have the person admitting why he did it and how
• 17:51
  Speaker 12: he did it. and that he is sharing regret. Also,
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  Speaker 12: he shares regret with involving his significant other partner in
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  Speaker 12: this by doing it. So I don't know where people
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  Speaker 12: get the idea that, well, he didn't do it.
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  Speaker 1: He's a stooge.
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  Speaker 12: Is that what we're going with? That he's a Lee
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  Speaker 12: Harvey Oswald patsy?
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  Speaker 15: I don't know.
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  Speaker 12: But we have evidence from, you know, Robinson, two twigs
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  Speaker 12: that puts him in the moment With the shot, I
• 18:23
  Speaker 12: don't know how much more direct evidence you need.
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  Speaker 1: In addition to what we have learned in this preliminary hearing,
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  Speaker 1: it was full of probative evidence. And what's interesting is
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: you see not only a peek at what the state's
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: going to bring on in their case in chief when
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: this assassination goes to trial, but you also see where
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the defense is headed. And you can tell that by
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: how they cross-examine the witnesses. You get their theory, their
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: thinking as to how they're going to proceed. That said,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: from Lance Twiggs, we move to ballistics, hard evidence. Because
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Lance Twiggs is going to be attacked at trial on
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  Speaker 1: credibility issues. You just heard a veteran defense attorney and
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  Speaker 1: lawyer a homicide detective, state that Twiggs could easily be
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  Speaker 1: pegged as a co-defendant or a conspirator after the fact,
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  Speaker 1: maybe even more. Now, we all know he has not
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  Speaker 1: been charged in connection in any way to Charlie Kirk's murder,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: but it's a line of cross-examination. In other words, you're
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: saying all this because you thought you'd be charged, and
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  Speaker 1: you're saying whatever the state wants you to say, isn't
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  Speaker 1: that true? That's how I would start it off. There's
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  Speaker 1: nothing to suggest Twiggs was part of the murder, but
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  Speaker 1: it is a line of questioning on cross-examination that is
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  Speaker 1: low-hanging fruit. It's there for the grabbing. You don't even
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: have to reach for it. So what does that mean?
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  Speaker 1: That means the state needs more than just Lance Twiggs.
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  Speaker 7: The lover.
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  Speaker 9: What?
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  Speaker 1: Ballistics.
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  Speaker 9: And Tyler says, I'm still okay, my love, but I'm
• 20:16
  Speaker 9: stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't
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  Speaker 9: be long until I can come home, but gotta grab
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  Speaker 9: my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to
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  Speaker 9: keep this secret till I died of old age. I
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  Speaker 9: am sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, you
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  Speaker 9: weren't the one who did it, right? And Tyler says,
• 20:36
  Speaker 9: I am, I'm sorry. Lance says, I thought they caught
• 20:40
  Speaker 9: the person. And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some
• 20:44
  Speaker 9: crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I
• 20:48
  Speaker 9: had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point
• 20:50
  Speaker 9: shortly after, but most of that side of town got
• 20:54
  Speaker 9: locked down. It's quiet almost enough to get out, but
• 20:57
  Speaker 9: there's one vehicle lingering.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: His grandpa's double ought. The murder weapon. So am I
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: supposed to believe that somebody else stole Tyler Robinson's grandpa's weapon,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: his long gun, and effected a murder. And then coincidentally,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Robinson is sending his lover texts about that. Another interesting thing,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: and what you just heard, and this all came out
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in the preliminary hearing, is that, quote, Lance Twiggs says,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I thought they caught the person. And Tyler responds, No,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: similar clothing. Okay, there you go, Skyla Zorro. That will
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: be an avenue of cross for the defense. That's going
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: to be one of their defenses. It's a defense attorney's
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: dream come true. Police actually arrested somebody else at one juncture.
• 21:59
  Speaker 13: That's correct. And they arrested him right on the scene.
• 22:03
  Speaker 13: It wasn't days later where they found Tyler Robinson and
• 22:06
  Speaker 13: he finally came forward. This was someone that they arrested
• 22:09
  Speaker 13: on the scene who actually admitted to doing it at
• 22:12
  Speaker 13: the time. So when you're talking about a bungled investigation
• 22:17
  Speaker 13: or not having enough police there or them being able
• 22:21
  Speaker 13: to do their job correctly, you know, they also arrested
• 22:25
  Speaker 13: somebody else. Now he was never charged and later released.
• 22:29
  Speaker 13: But certainly something you want to explore when you're talking
• 22:32
  Speaker 13: about whether or not this investigation conducted correctly.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And there goes Tyler Robinson. Why is he limping? Oh,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: because he's got a gun down his pants. Guys, this
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: is a defense attorney's dream come true. Another person was
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: arrested and actually confessed. Of course, they're a nut. But
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: that said, if you can just get one juror to
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: buy your argument, hey, They want us to convict Tyler Robinson?
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Why should we believe he did it and not the
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: other guy they arrested? So that's where the defense will
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: head with that. All that said, that is all witness cross-examination.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to cross-examine hard scientific evidence like ballistics.
• 23:21
  Speaker 9: Lance says, why? And Tyler says, why did I do it?
• 23:25
  Speaker 9: And Lance says, yeah. Tyler says, I had enough of
• 23:29
  Speaker 9: his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm
• 23:33
  Speaker 9: able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left
• 23:37
  Speaker 9: no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully
• 23:40
  Speaker 9: they have moved on. I haven't seen anything in the
• 23:43
  Speaker 9: news about them finding it. We'll update you shortly, or
• 23:46
  Speaker 9: surely we'll update you by midnight. And then Lance says,
• 23:49
  Speaker 9: all right, stay safe. How long have you been planning this?
• 23:54
  Speaker 9: And Tyler replies, a bit over a week, I believe.
• 23:57
  Speaker 9: So Lance says, do you need it for hunting? And
• 24:01
  Speaker 9: Tyler says, no, my dad wanted to use a high
• 24:04
  Speaker 9: caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say
• 24:08
  Speaker 9: Graham's gun does just fine.
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: IDK.
• 24:11
  Speaker 9: I think that was a 2K scope. Lance says, geez.
• 24:18
  Speaker 9: And then Tyler says, well, I'm W home 3.5 hours.
• 24:23
  Speaker 9: Lance says, drive safe. And then Tyler says, delete this exchange.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: We got them from our friends at East Idaho News. Translation,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Nate Eaton. Straight out to forensics expert, professor of forensics,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, now
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: star of a YouTube hit program, Body Bags, with Joe
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Okay, Joe Scott, ballistics. It's hard to argue ballistics.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: What do we know? Other than there were no spent
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: shell casings at the scene of the sniper's lair, the nest.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: That hurts, but all is not lost.
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: No, it's not. And keep in mind, Nancy, this Mauser
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: rifle that he allegedly used is a bolt-action rifle. So
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: that means that this weapon has to be cycled. That
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: means the little handle on the top has to be
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: moved up, pulled back, and it ejects around. This is
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: not a semi-automatic weapon. So what apparently happened is that
• 25:28
  Speaker 7: when they actually got this weapon and retrieved it, you
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: still had that round that is spent. You can see
• 25:36
  Speaker 7: there's not a projectile any longer seated in there. It's
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: an open hole there. You have a live round. That's
• 25:42
  Speaker 7: a spent round. I actually have one right here, Nancy,
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: if you want to see it in real time. That's
• 25:49
  Speaker 7: the size of it. And just so people at home
• 25:51
  Speaker 7: understand the size of this ammunition, This is a 5.56,
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: which our warriors have used for years and years. Think
• 25:59
  Speaker 7: back to M4, M16. This is a 30-06. It's been
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: around since 06, 1906. It was used in World War I,
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: World War II, and in Korea. Very powerful round. It
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: was not cycled out, Nancy. So that round was still
• 26:14
  Speaker 7: in the chamber at that point in time when they
• 26:17
  Speaker 7: recovered this weapon. And so if you look, I love
• 26:19
  Speaker 7: this image. If you guys could please keep it up.
• 26:21
  Speaker 7: The one on the bottom right, okay? you can actually
• 26:25
  Speaker 7: pick up on the diameter of the round itself there.
• 26:28
  Speaker 7: That's how they measure this as 30 caliber.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 26:32
  Speaker 7: So they do the diameter based upon that. Now, if,
• 26:37
  Speaker 7: as you can see, this thing is mushroomed out, it
• 26:39
  Speaker 7: is blown out. There are the fragments up there in
• 26:41
  Speaker 7: the top image. This thing is fragmented. We call this
• 26:44
  Speaker 7: a lead storm at autopsy. You cannot read the markings
• 26:50
  Speaker 7: on the side of the projectile because it's so deformed.
• 26:54
  Speaker 7: That's why there's been this big question about, well, you
• 26:57
  Speaker 7: can't tie this round back to that weapon. Okay, yeah,
• 27:00
  Speaker 7: I'll go there with you. And they actually said at
• 27:02
  Speaker 7: one point in time they were trying other avenues. So
• 27:05
  Speaker 7: I don't know if that's going to occur. But this
• 27:09
  Speaker 7: round was in fact mangled. There's been a bit of
• 27:12
  Speaker 7: conspiracy floating around relative to this where so many people,
• 27:17
  Speaker 7: have said, there's no way that a. 30- 06 would stay
• 27:21
  Speaker 7: in the body. Really? You think after millions and millions
• 27:25
  Speaker 7: of rounds have been fired of this particular caliber over
• 27:28
  Speaker 7: all of these years, not a single projectile has never
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: exited a body? Wrong answer, okay? Because they do fragment.
• 27:38
  Speaker 7: Every shot is different. In this particular case, this round
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: actually did fragment, and it creates a hugely devastating wound.
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: When truth be told about the injury that Kirk sustained
• 27:54
  Speaker 7: is brought forward and we hear about this gaping injury
• 27:57
  Speaker 7: that is going to be involving multiple, and I mean multiple,
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: vertebral bodies in his neck, all of the surrounding vessels,
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: the spinal cord, all of this, people will see how
• 28:08
  Speaker 7: vicious this round is. But no, there's no indication at
• 28:12
  Speaker 7: this point in time that this round exited. It fragmented
• 28:15
  Speaker 7: upon impact. One other thing, Nancy, that needs to be
• 28:19
  Speaker 7: brought up here is this idea of the engraving on
• 28:23
  Speaker 7: the side of this round and the other rounds that
• 28:25
  Speaker 7: were recovered from what's referred to as an indwelling magazine.
• 28:30
  Speaker 7: That means that this is not an external magazine. You
• 28:33
  Speaker 7: have to thumb load these things in, press them down,
• 28:35
  Speaker 7: put them in. Now, we turn to our friends. If
• 28:38
  Speaker 7: you think about handwriting analysis, question documents, they recovered a
• 28:43
  Speaker 7: Dremel tool, allegedly. that was used, they think, they're saying
• 28:47
  Speaker 7: at least, as an engraving tool. That could very well.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Be matched up to his handwriting style.
• 28:52
  Speaker 7: Okay, hold on, let me see Joe Scott.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott.
• 28:55
  Speaker 7: Yes, ma'am.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I was just going to that. I was waiting for
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: you to finish about the ballistics. You have to hear what... No, no,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I'm coming right back to it when you're talking about
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: a Dremel tool. And listen to this, Joe Scott.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And then most clearly we have the etchings on the
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: rounds found in the gun. Right, Exhibit 19... Twigs explained
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: what this means. Notices bulge, O-W-O, surprise face.
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: What's this, right?
• 29:24
  Speaker 8: This is a furry meme.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: The surprise someone has in discovering that another individual unexpectedly
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: has male genitalia. Exhibit 20 is probably the most clear
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: political statement here. Hey, fascist, catch. And then exhibit 2022,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: if you read this, you are gay, LMAO. So these
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: etchings show a clear political and sexual motivation connected with
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: a political stance that Charlie Kirk took.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I want to make sure we all understand what prosecutor
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: ryan mcbride just said to that's from east idaho news
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: they were in the courtroom from the get-go look at
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: that l m a o laughing my ass off nate
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: eaton explain the etchings on the bullets.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: There was multiple etchings on multiple bullets nancy Police went
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: to the apartment where Lance and Tyler lived, and they
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: found a Dremel tool. This is a tool that you
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: can use. It's pretty small, very simple to use. You
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: can etch.
• 30:35
  Speaker 9: There you go.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: You can etch on metal or other types of wood,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: whatever substance you want, messages. And that's allegedly what Tyler
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Robinson did. He took that tool that they found in
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: the apartment. Lance Twiggs testified that he had the tool
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: and that Tyler wrote these messages on these bullets. that
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: were found in the gun after the fact. They also
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: found packages of unused ammunition in the apartment that matched
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the ammunition that was used in the gun.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Nate, specifically, somebody, and I would submit it's Tyler Robinson,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: takes time to dremel, engrave on a bullet. This guy writes,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: notices bulge. O-W-O, surprise face. What's this? Let me understand.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Where is Nate Eaton? Where is Nate? There he is. Nate,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: you may think it's funny. I don't because here I
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: am seeing motive. I am seeing motive. Now again, as
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: we said earlier, State doesn't have to prove motive, but
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: here you go. You know how Kirk felt, right? About
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: same-sex marriage and more. Irrelevant about how he felt. This
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: is motive for murder. He literally engraves it on a
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: bullet talking about male genitalia. And it's a furry meme,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of course. And then he writes on the bullet. He
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: engraves it. Hey, fascist.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Catch. Catch.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: That was a bullet intended for Charlie Kirk. So I
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: guess Kirk catching it would be catching it with his head.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: And the defense, Nancy, has argued that Tyler Robinson didn't
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: have anything personal against Charlie Kirk as far as his
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: views on same-sex marriage or his views on sexuality or politics.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: They've argued to have that part thrown out of this case.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Whereas the prosecutors are saying, what more clear evidence do
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: you need than what's written on this ammunition? It's written
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: right there.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Let me be clear, Nate. I really do not care
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: who sleeps with who or who wears a furry outfit.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I do not care. I care about violent crime like this.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And the fact, I mean, who dremels with an ingrate?
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Let me say that dremel again. Who hunches over a
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: workbench into the night, dremeling onto bullets? And it all
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: tracks right back to Tyler Robinson. Joe Scott Morgan, explain.
• 33:30
  Speaker 7: Yeah, let me break this down for you even further
• 33:33
  Speaker 7: because when we begin to talk about this casing itself
• 33:37
  Speaker 7: and the casings similar to it that are found in
• 33:40
  Speaker 7: this weapon, those etchings, Keep in mind, LeCarde stated many,
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: many years ago, Nancy, that every contact leaves a trace.
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: Let me tell you what this trace is going to be.
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: When they went in and they went to this particular
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: workbench where this was facilitated, guess what was left behind
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: by this Dremel? Well, it's going to be any flex
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: of metal that came off of the long axis of
• 34:06
  Speaker 7: this casing and the other casings. You'll find those spread about.
• 34:10
  Speaker 7: In addition to that, you're going to find it perhaps
• 34:13
  Speaker 7: on the tool itself. Now, why is this important? Well,
• 34:16
  Speaker 7: it's connectivity, right? It's just like a ballistic fingerprint or
• 34:20
  Speaker 7: anything else that we do, DNA. So you're trying to
• 34:23
  Speaker 7: put this Dremel tool into his hand. Was it his?
• 34:27
  Speaker 7: Did he have possession of it? Where was this facilitated,
• 34:30
  Speaker 7: these engravings? So this is strong evidence, I think. When
• 34:34
  Speaker 7: they go in, they're going to be looking for trace
• 34:36
  Speaker 7: evidence on that bench. And metallically, from a chemical standpoint, does,
• 34:41
  Speaker 7: or molecular standpoint, does Do the flecks that have been
• 34:45
  Speaker 7: left behind by this Dremel, do they marry up with
• 34:48
  Speaker 7: these casings? And that is a specific identifier. Again, I
• 34:51
  Speaker 7: think that this goes to strengthening the evidence as far
• 34:55
  Speaker 7: as physical evidence goes. It's one more piece to this.
• 35:01
  Speaker 7: To Dr.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: John De La Torre joining us, psychologist, mediator, expert in
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: forensic psychology, one thing of the many, many conspiracy theories
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that have emerged has to do with the fact that
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the battery on the body cam goes dead at one point. That,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: it sounds innocent, right? But it's going to be a
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: huge gaping hole because if one person on that jury
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: believes that was intentional, that the body cam video was
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: went dead because the cop wanted to hide or destroy evidence,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: that is a hook. It's a hook. Is it real? No,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: but it's a hook. It's not even a reasonable doubt,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: but it's something that could be argued to a jury.
• 35:51
  Speaker 14: Your body cam footage that I reviewed appears to end
• 35:56
  Speaker 14: while you're still on the roof. Do you know why
• 35:59
  Speaker 14: that is?
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: I think the battery went dead.
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: It was just right at that moment. Okay. And.
• 36:05
  Speaker 14: Do you know, did you ever turn it back on
• 36:08
  Speaker 14: that day or go get it, I don't know, what
• 36:10
  Speaker 14: do you have to do, charge it or stick a
• 36:11
  Speaker 14: new battery in it? I don't even know.
• 36:12
  Speaker 11: Usually dock it, but no, I didn't go back. I
• 36:14
  Speaker 11: was too, it was too chaotic running around.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: From our friend Nate Eaton at East Idaho News.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: So Dr.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: De La Torre, the questioner was Catherine Nestor, the defense attorney.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: So we see through her cross-examination, one of the defense
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: theories is going to be that the body cam went
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: dead so evidence could be destroyed.
• 36:37
  Speaker 11: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the end result for people
• 36:39
  Speaker 11: who want to believe these conspiracy theories is the confirmation bias, right?
• 36:43
  Speaker 11: When there's an opening, when there's some kind of gap,
• 36:46
  Speaker 11: whether it's a gap in technology or a gap in knowledge,
• 36:49
  Speaker 11: people need to fill that in. And they fill it
• 36:53
  Speaker 11: in with a thing that they believe is the most appropriate. Now,
• 36:57
  Speaker 11: therein lies the problem because a lot of people think
• 37:00
  Speaker 11: that they are more intelligent than what they are. People
• 37:04
  Speaker 11: think that they're more skilled than what they actually are.
• 37:07
  Speaker 11: People have a tendency of thinking that there are no
• 37:10
  Speaker 11: such things as coincidences in murder investigations. When all of
• 37:15
  Speaker 11: that couples together, nefarious thinking, people believing in their own
• 37:19
  Speaker 11: skills more than other people's, that it can coalesce into
• 37:26
  Speaker 11: this confirmation bias that is then exacerbated by whatever they
• 37:31
  Speaker 11: see on social media, right? Social media has an algorithm
• 37:35
  Speaker 11: that is feeding you content based on what you believe.
• 37:39
  Speaker 11: And so the more that you're seeing, hey, wait a minute,
• 37:42
  Speaker 11: there's a conspiracy theory here, the more you're going to
• 37:44
  Speaker 11: start believing that there's a conspiracy theory here, the more
• 37:47
  Speaker 11: likely you are to fall victim to conspiracy theories. In
• 37:52
  Speaker 11: these situations, it is very likely that someone just did
• 37:56
  Speaker 11: not power up their body cam and that there's no
• 38:00
  Speaker 11: nefarious purpose associated with it. But it's so hard to break, right?
• 38:05
  Speaker 11: Logic is so hard to break when emotions and anger
• 38:09
  Speaker 11: and mistrust and distrust all coalesce into someone believing that
• 38:14
  Speaker 11: they're actually smarter or better or more talented than what
• 38:16
  Speaker 11: they actually are.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Speaking of conspiracy theories, here's another.
• 38:21
  Speaker 14: Wasn't there also a bullet found on another building?
• 38:25
  Speaker 16: I believe an unfired bullet had been found on another
• 38:28
  Speaker 16: building at some point during my time there on September 10th, yes.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: Which building was that, sir?
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: I don't recall.
• 38:35
  Speaker 14: Was that considered a scene that was worth preserving?
• 38:38
  Speaker 16: It was not. My recollection is that that was accounted
• 38:43
  Speaker 16: for as an ejected cartridge from an officer who had
• 38:47
  Speaker 16: cycled his rifle.
• 38:49
  Speaker 14: Okay, I thought you said it was an unfired bullet,
• 38:52
  Speaker 14: so now you're saying it was a cartridge?
• 38:53
  Speaker 10: That's correct.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, that is a whole heap of trouble
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: right there. It sure is. Another bullet not matching up
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to the murder weapon on the top of another building.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: And again, that's the defense attorney, Catherine Nestor, who is
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: trying to understand what it means to cycle a bullet
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: through and not actually fire the bullet.
• 39:17
  Speaker 9: Irrelevant.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: The point is there's another bullet that nobody can explain
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: that And that's going to be fodder for conspiracy theorists.
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: Of course it is. And I didn't like his response.
• 39:29
  Speaker 7: on the stand when he's testifying to this. This is
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: something I hope that they documented, they identified, documented, photographed, collected.
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: Because listen, Nancy, forensics is not merely about finding positive findings.
• 39:44
  Speaker 7: It's also negative findings. You have to include that You
• 39:47
  Speaker 7: don't know what's going on at this particular time. Everything
• 39:51
  Speaker 7: out there has value. And I mean everything, okay? Because
• 39:56
  Speaker 7: at this point in time, when you're working the scene,
• 39:59
  Speaker 7: you have to completely lock it down. I still have
• 40:02
  Speaker 7: questions about how the scene was handled and secured afterwards.
• 40:08
  Speaker 7: And again, all of this is gonna go to fodder.
• 40:11
  Speaker 7: Anytime an authority like the police or any investigative agencies
• 40:16
  Speaker 7: deviate from standard operating procedure. And I'm not just talking
• 40:20
  Speaker 7: about what their SOP is, what is broadly recognized as
• 40:24
  Speaker 7: good practice in the industry. Anytime you deviate from this,
• 40:28
  Speaker 7: this is the price you're gonna pay, just so that
• 40:31
  Speaker 7: everybody understands this when you go to court eventually.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: These lines of cross-examination are of course valid, but it's
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: giving us a view into the window of where the
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: defense is headed and people are latching on to not
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: the obvious evidence, but these conspiracy theories. Here's one.
• 40:56
  Speaker 15: I think she works for the oppressing class and that
• 40:59
  Speaker 15: she was hired to be Charlie Kirk's handler because Charlie
• 41:02
  Speaker 15: Kirk was such an influential part of the Christian movement
• 41:06
  Speaker 15: through Turning Point USA. I think that the oppressors that
• 41:10
  Speaker 15: Erica was working for really wanted to use Turning Point
• 41:12
  Speaker 15: USA to try to sway the younger generation and manipulate
• 41:16
  Speaker 15: them and control a narrative around Christianity because that's what
• 41:21
  Speaker 15: they do.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: The oppressors, that's what they do. Okay, so you get
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: one nut on the jury, it's over. Now, that is
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: from not an official news source on TikTok. Truer words
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: were never spoken. We wait as justice unfolds. The judge
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: has ruled. The state presented overwhelming evidence that there is
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: a conflict of fact for a jury to determine. If
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything regarding this case,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: as the state and the defense build their cases, dial 800-225-5324.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: We remember American hero, Officer Nicholas Armstrong, Rapid City PD,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: South Dakota, just 20 seven, shot in the line of
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: duty after four years, leaving behind grieving parents, Kim and
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Bill Armstrong, and brothers, Chris and Mackenzie. I noticed on
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: his online guest book at the funeral home, he quotes
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: John Muir and states, the mountains are calling and I
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: must go. American hero, police officer, Nicholas Armstrong. Thank you
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: to our guests, but especially to you for being with
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off, but I'll see you
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.