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Leading Nonprofits with Care featuring Kishshana Palmer | Nonprofit 411 Podcast · Nonprofit411 Podcast

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Hello and welcome to Nonprofit411, where we dive into resources and strategies that help nonprofits not just survive, but truly thrive.
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I'm Sarah Barton, your host and fundraising advocate.
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org today, and let's build a stronger future together.
Hello and welcome to the Nonprofit 411 Podcast.
Today we're going to explore resources and strategies to help your nonprofit organization thrive.
I'm Sarah Barton, your host, and today I'm excited to welcome Kashauna Palmer with Management.
She is the The CEO, and she's going to give us all advice about how to make our nonprofits thrive.
How are you today? Hey there.
I'm great.
I am great.
The sun is shining.
My office is clean.
Wow.
That's that's big.
Listen, that is big.
Trust me.
I know that listeners are going to be like, your office is clean because isn't that a feat for most of us? Think about it.
Like Sarah, we grew up and I know this will resonate with you.
Like, would our parents be like, clean your room.
You know, and we were like, I don't want to clean my room.
And it was like an act of protest to like leave the one random thing on the floor, cause you didn't want to do it.
And now as an adult, our brains literally do not function well if our spaces are not organized and clean.
Isn't that crazy? Yes, I know they knew what they were talking about, but I think I could convince my 20 year old, I have an 18 year old going on 19.
So hello going on a 35.
Okay.
So, and this is Sarah.
Okay.
So before we jump into this, I think this is very relevant to talk about today.
Isn't it ironic that the things that we teach our young people when they're in our house and they are protesting rolling their eyes, then these babies go to college and university.
And now all of a sudden you're a knee freak, what? I know, I agree.
Or that thing that you've been telling them for the last 20 years of their life, someone else tells them once and they're like, Oh my gosh, you won't believe what I learned.
You won't believe what this thing that I found out and you're like, excuse me.
And that happens in our organizations too, isn't it? Like there are things that our team members have said to us time and time and time again.
And as leaders, we are busy.
We are trying to do all the things.
And so we're like, uh huh.
Uh huh.
Uh huh.
And then we go to a conference or we listen to a webinar or we listen to a podcast and all of a sudden we have this Eureka moment and we take this back to our staff meeting and our team members are like, I hate you.
I really do.
It's true.
It's true.
But, you know, we just weren't ready.
So my undergrad is an under, is an developmental theory.
And so like, I'm just like, Oh, the brain wasn't developed enough to be able to handle that yet.
Exactly.
I love that.
And that's what we dig into at management.
You know, we are a change management consultant practice and all of us at management come from business.
We come from the social sector.
We come from tech.
Right.
And all the different sort of like feeders into the work we do that is missing driven and impact driven.
I have had the good fortune.
Of being able to grow up in the social sector.
And so I started investment banking and then I moved into social sector work and I knew I didn't want to be in program.
That was not my desire and my day job, but I did love me some money.
And so I, so I raised money and raised capital and helped organizations to grow and scale.
But what I got really good at was being able to help others do that even more than I can do it for myself and being able to really guide and make space for leaders and for leaders to be healthy.
I didn't have the words then is there.
Okay.
I'm just doing it.
But what ended up happening is that I kept burning out, but my team members kept thriving.
And I realized that I was sort of like the force field and the buffer For every like toxic behavior that was happening for all of the stuff that was going on.
And I wanted to make sure that that experience that I had did not continue to happen for others so that they could persist and could thrive no matter what work we were doing.
So we just have a fresh take on management and leadership.
We do things differently.
We really believe in, if you do not live well, then you cannot lead well.
And so we lead out.
With wellness and wellbeing as the foundation for how you lead with vulnerability, with openness, with care we are human centered.
That does not mean that we don't want to hit goals and that our goals are not ambitious and that we don't work hard and that we don't burn out sometimes.
But it does mean that we do not believe in burning out the people, our people to get to an outcome.
So that is compassionate coaching.
That is real retreats.
This makes you laugh.
I saw a client.
Uh, do you want to retreat or do you want a long meeting with food? Cause you know, they're not the same and I'm okay with either, but I was like the staff to be written team has to be the realistic expectations must be set.
You know, and love that long meeting with food.
That's what we call.
Okay.
A long meeting with food.
And if it's good food, you know, then people are more enthused.
So that's some of the work that we do at management.
We'd leadership trainings, retreats, advisory.
We do everything from director level, uh, Advising and coaching all the way up to executive team and board work, but really in thinking about organizational behavior, culture, and shifting and change and how to help folks be able to navigate that when so much is happening in our lives.
So, yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I need to do our fun question.
We didn't get to that.
We got, we got the free cleaning tip.
Okay.
Fun question.
What's your favorite hobby? Shopping.
Shopping.
Oh, that's a good one.
I don't usually think about that as a hobby, but I'm a huge hobby.
I am passionate about Everyone needs a hobby.
Like, I don't know what your hobby is.
You need to have a hobby, right? Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
So, but shopping, you know, I haven't really thought about that as a hobby.
I mean, so hilariously, it's also so soothing, but you know, it's a different podcast.
I love it so much that like I was teasing that I was like, I'm going to put myself on TaskRabbit for the holidays, since I'm off the road in December, which I normally am not.
So I can shop for others.
Uh, because I know some of us hate to go into the store and I love it.
I like the people.
I like the way things smell.
I like the music.
I talk to folks.
Like I just enjoy the delight that folks get when you, even if they don't care about gifts and they don't love gifts, but the delight that they get when they open something that goes, Oh my God, you were listening.
Uh, yeah.
And I'm really good at it.
And so I love that to other people, that's, that's a good idea.
So I was wondering if you've ever done like, you know, shopping for others.
I have.
I style people's, my girlfriend, they're like can you redo my wardrobe for me? Thank you.
And right now I am in what I would call a decision diet.
And that is really.
Making one or two clear decisions so that I don't have to make tons of others.
So for me right now, it's with my wardrobe.
I love clothes.
I always have since I was a little girl.
And so I'm always dressed, dressed, dressed.
But when I am in a very high stressed time of year, and so that's between travel, and speaking, and design, and prep for the new year, Let me tell you what I don't want to think about what I have on.
So every year I will decide on like a capsule that I'm going to wear for this time period.
That is where I will make no decisions about what I wear.
And so this year my entire team is doing it.
So I have decided that on Amazon, you know, they have a little jet set.
Uh, jogging suits like the one I have on currently is very stylish.
I have it in five colors cause there's five days of the week and all I do is wash and repeat and I feel good about my life.
I look good every day.
I feel good every day.
I don't have to think about what I'm wearing.
I get to go work out cause I don't think about my clothes.
And then when I'm on the road, these are my travel outfits and if I'm training, these are my training outfits.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like I literally.
Simplify that part of my brain that on a regular day I love, but when I'm going into high stress, cannot, cannot, cannot do it.
And some of us do that with meal prep.
Yes.
I'm a meal prepper.
I love meal prepping.
Okay.
How long can you go doing meal prep before you have to take a pause? What do you mean? Like in a day or? No, like, can you go like a three month stretch that you like meal prepped every single week? And then you just like, stop.
You're like, Oh my God, I'm over it.
No, cause it's really my relaxation.
So like every week, well, I would say holidays get tricky.
So I will pre prep, so I'll do my prepping for it in advance.
Kind of like what you do with your wardrobe.
Yeah.
Like I have, we, so I entertain.
Generally a minimum of 20 people.
And I do it multiple times throughout the holidays.
It's different than 20 people, but I have a lot of people.
And so, I will kind of like what you said, I'll set the menu.
There'll be some things we can swap in and out like the type of cookie, but you know, we're going to have this type, we're going to have dips.
this vegetable, this type of thing.
And I, I know the setup, I know the setup.
And then I set up my our office area at the house.
I set it up for entertainment.
So like it has the extra tables and all the stuff for serving food.
So it's kind of pre done and I just leave it up throughout that whole period of time.
Yeah.
So, so it's not necessarily, but it kind of like you, when the decisions get to be too much I do enjoy the process of it.
So kind of like you, you, you enjoy looking good, right? So I don't ever mind actually prepping the food, but thinking about what's going to be on the menu will be done ahead of time.
So that's right.
Take that decision out.
That's right.
And enjoy it.
Right.
It goes from being a chore to more of a ritual.
You know, you take out your special Dutchie pots, you take out to, you know, the fancy cookie things that you do, you know, you have your specialty.
Like, I think one of the things that I want us to bring from that.
I love the idea of hobbies and bring that into the, our workspaces are that many times we are hardcore in the community.
Routine rope.
Like we're just auto, auto, auto, auto, auto.
And when you get into that auto mode, you think you're doing yourself a service by not thinking about it.
But what if you slowed up just a little bit? And made it more of a ritual.
So here's a quick example.
I love coffee, love coffee.
I have a girlfriend who takes this to the next level.
I will go to Starbucks.
That is my ritual every day.
Cause I get to talk to people.
I work from home.
I like people I work alone at home.
So that's my time to go have my little 15 minutes of people interaction every single morning.
I have my Starbucks cups.
I collect them.
These are the things that I love a girlfriend of mine.
Her ritual actually a little different.
She actually gets up in the morning before her, like a couple hours before her kids.
So she can have a slow start.
And she does a coffee pour over, which you know, you have to really set up the coffee in the glass container and you do the slow pour, you gotta watch it.
And then she does her frothing.
She takes what would be just like, uh, put this instant coffee, half asleep, put it in a thing.
And she goes, Nope, this is my time.
And so what are we doing as leaders in our organizations that you can say, Oh, no, no, this is my time.
Maybe it's the time you take to fill out stuff in your planner.
And you use your stickies and your highlighters and you don't let them make, you know, make people, let people make fun of you that you are still in grade school because I still love my house.
I don't care.
Or maybe you're the person who likes to get to work a little bit early so you can kind of get your day started because you're still going into the office and you're a really social person or your team is social.
And so you already know there's going to be 90 minutes of your morning that are going to be shot.
Once people come into the office, so you come in and you get your music set, you get your rock salt light going so that you have seasonal affective disorders not affecting you.
You know what I mean? Like the stage for your day, as opposed to just racing into the parking lot, your bag half hanging off, you're dragging behind you, your lunchbox dragging or worse, you having a plastic bag, whatever.
What if we gave the same care and attention that we give to our little people going into kindergarten and first grade where we cut up the sandwiches and we put the shapes and we got the bento box.
What if we gave that to ourselves as leaders? What would that do for us? Oh, I love that.
So, I am coming off a period of burnout.
I worked in community health during the pandemic and had, A career transfer.
Obviously, I started my own business at the same time.
I always talk about like the, I had the perfect storm for burnout.
I was, uh, a leader at the organization that I worked with and then I had, I have twins.
I have twin 20 year olds.
They were graduating from high school.
We were selling our house, remodeling my parents house.
And in the same weekend, we hosted my parents 50th anniversary, their graduation party and moved.
You sound like me.
Good night.
Okay.
Like, yo, look, my neck just started to hurt off time.
I know, right? And I didn't realize, like, I didn't realize what happens when our rituals and the things that are familiar to us How impactful that can be.
That's right.
I mean, it, I wouldn't have said like I was a candidate for such extreme burnout, but then when it hit, I, I was like, it was, it was all over.
Right.
I was just able to function.
And as I started speaking about that, so I'm about a year and a half out.
From that full transition.
Yeah.
And you know, I've started speaking to people about it, started talking about all the things I've had to do.
I've created a lot of rituals.
I actually do have a coffee ritual with an espresso machine.
I went to digital.
So, I mean, I went to analog notebooks, which, you know, I can't say with my.
background, but I started doing bullet journaling and that whole process of journaling has been really impactful for me.
And as I look at our nonprofits, I see so many professionals.
Barely hanging on by hanging on.
Yeah.
And they're the people that do the good, amazing work in our community.
They're serving the highest need populations in our community and they're not taking care of themselves and we're not taking good care of them either.
That's right.
That's right.
And so everything you're saying here just resonates with, we need to start with.
Taking care of people in that that is a worthy investment.
It is a worthy investment to let all of our employees have that first hour of the day to be human you know, human not to be producers.
Interesting that when you say that out loud, we get like the nodding, right? Like, yes, yes, no, you know, like, and but, but please answer the emails.
Like for example, I had a team member.
That I checked in with this morning, you know, I was getting ready in the morning and I have my own morning ritual and she just popped up in my brain heavy and we didn't have our meeting schedules.
So normally on Thursdays.
So she popped up so heavy that I texted her and said, Hey, I put 30 minutes on your calendar this morning just for a quick check in.
Nothing's wrong.
Cause I have to make sure, you know, a lot of times, no matter what, people like that do something, you know, when, when your manager sends you a text message and a meeting request at seven in the morning, you know, but it wasn't that she was just on my mind heavy.
And when we got on screen, I was like, nothing's wrong, but are you okay? I was like, because it was like a glaring, blinking, pick up the phone and call her, stop everything.
And I believe in those moments.
Yes, I do do it, do it, do it.
And her eyes watered.
And she said.
No, nothing's wrong at all.
Also.
Thank you.
Like, wow.
You know, and it's just that humanist.
And I was like, I was like, all right, just want to make sure we're good.
I said, we can just, we can move our check into now if you want from Thursday or we can just jump off.
I just wanted to make sure.
That you cannot support you in something.
And she was like, I'm good.
And then she was like, actually, we had done all this stuff that she actually needed help with.
So just that humanness, like being able to say like, you are not a robot.
Please stop acting like one.
And the reason that I had to text her is because we don't check email before nine o'clock.
Oh yeah.
And we're in a different time zone.
We just don't.
Yeah.
Our slaps turn off.
And we just, if we really need something, they know, text Kashana or call her.
Or text Blythe or call her.
Text Alicia or call her.
Like, we just know.
And so if you don't get one of those communication outreaches, it's away.
And I want to tell you.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that because I think that there's so much.
I think that one of the disservices that COVID did for us is that we got into a habit of back to back meetings.
I know an organization that never sets a meeting longer than 50, 50 minutes, so that you have 10 minutes to transition.
Transition.
Yep.
Yeah.
I love that.
And then You know, how often do I, I keep saying I'm broken on face to face meetings because I don't know how to plan for travel time anymore.
Like I'm always, I'm always screwed up on the next meeting.
Cause I didn't plan enough time for like, when you're in person, people going to talk longer, you know, you got to travel, there might be traffic.
It's so true.
All of those things.
And so rebuilding that, I love that you focus on, you talk about rebuilding it and restoring it because, uh, they are things that we have known in the past.
What happens when we're not rebuilding it? And it's a whole new thing.
It's a whole new thing.
I think we're scared.
That if we actually really do a new thing that we won't be useful anymore.
And I just will say out loud the thing that others may not want to say.
So I could just say it for you.
Like, it's okay to be afraid of that.
It's okay to be nervous that you are going to be replaced by a tech tool, even though time has shown to date that that is actually not quite right.
It is okay to be worried that you have not upskilled enough because you don't have time because you are inundated with all of the things.
It's actually just okay to name it, and then you get to decide what you want to do about it.
And I think about, go ahead.
What about it's okay.
If we can't serve everybody, it's okay.
I think that's a really scary one for nonprofits.
Do you think that's true? I think it's a hundred percent true.
And what I find when, when I have clients tell me that, or if I'm out speaking and somebody tells me something like that, what I will offer is the reality is.
Every day there's another organization who has been founded because they think your organization doesn't exist.
That's true.
That's true.
No one is clearly doing the research.
Okay.
That they're like nine other organizations in your zip code that are doing the exact same thing.
So if you feel like niching so that you can be laser focused and do that with excellence and not burn out your people means that folks won't get served.
Get your ego out the way your organizational ego, and let's get to the Googles.
Let's pick up the phone because I guarantee you there is another organization that is fumble bumbling in an area that you are awesome at and that if they could feel like another organization could do that work, they'd be freed up to do something that they're excellent at.
So getting out of that scarcity mindset is not just about money.
It's about the way that we work.
So I push back and I push back because I'm someone who had to raise money for the second runner up.
So I like to call it.
So let's say there's an organization and the mission is around eradicating child hunger, right? Huge, huge global.
You can do that in your little community.
You can do it in your region, your state, the part of the country, the whole country, But the organization I work for was always the number two, not quite the most well known on brand, but the second one.
So every time I walk into a room, a potential funder or donor would say, are you a part of the number one organization? And I was like, no, that's not us.
Well, how we're different is, so I spent.
All this time explaining why we were different as opposed to explaining what we do.
And then finally, it occurred to me just to pick up the phone and call the chief development officer from that organization and say, Hey, what are you selling? Cause I need to understand so that we can position ourselves differently.
And then what work is your program team do? Should we get our program teams together? And the number of times I got to do that over my career, every time that I got to do that, we all started raising more capital.
We rise together.
It's so true.
We rise together.
And so one of the things I say all the time is it's coral reef, not a shark tank.
Oh, yeah.
You'll have to give me your address.
I'll send you a sticker.
I love that.
I say that very frequently because I think that nonprofit organizations get into.
A competition mindset that we're competing with these other organizations, right? Dude, we are not competing with another organization that feeds people.
We are all feeding people who need to be fed, you know, and there are plenty it's you're right.
When you niche down and do something with excellence, I'm learning that in my business.
You know, my business is not a nonprofit.
I serve nonprofits.
I need, I have been niching down to, I train fundraising and grant writing.
And I can, there are a lot of components to those things that I will support with.
But the other day somebody called me and they're like, I got your name and I need board development.
I called my friend, I said, are you still doing board development? 'cause I'm not, that's really outside of my scope and I'm still meeting that person's needs.
That person is still going to remember that I helped them if they, even if they go with my friend's organization.
That's right.
'cause I did something for them that they need it and then they'll know if they need to be trained in fundraising and grant writing.
They'll come back to me, you know, absolutely.
I can't tell you the relief Sarah that I felt the day that I said, Oh, I don't do that.
And the relief that I felt was because in my first couple of years of building my business, when I was purely a solo practitioner, I felt like I had to get every dollar because I have a kid to feed.
I have a mortgage to pay.
I have credit card bills to pay down.
I got to put, spend money on marketing.
Oh, there's something I can do social media.
Oh, my website has looked this way.
Oh, but the graphics.
Oh, but the, I mean, and I came into this work in 2013.
And so this was sort of at the like top end of when you started to really kind of think about socials as an opportunity to do one to many.
And I felt like it was icky because you know, all of our corporate counterparts were doing this stuff.
So I started to experiment and started to learn.
And so I felt like I had to get every, every set, every set because I had to keep doing it until the day I was like, this is not working for me.
So I'm just going to say no, but before I say no, let me go figure out who actually does what.
And I cannot tell you how suspicious initially folks were.
You want to help me? Why? Why do you want to help me? What do you mean? Why don't I help you? Do you not want to feed your family, take vacations, have savings, live a good life, help others? What? Yeah.
I got my, my fingers snipped so many times because folks are like, I don't trust that.
It's too helpful.
But what I learned is that the more I was able to say.
That's not an area that I specialize in, or my team does not do that anymore.
Or that's not one of the services we offer, but Kashana, we still want you to do that.
Okay.
But you're going to pay a premium for that.
Fine.
We'll pay it.
Great.
Or, oh, Kashana, that's a little bit more than we wanted to play.
I always ask how much do you plan to invest? Oh, we don't have a budget.
Can you just send us.
Nope.
Everybody has a do not exceed in their budget.
Let's be very clear.
Even if, even if the budget is only in your brain, you have a number of floor and a ceiling of which things should live, whether you know the information enough to know that is right or not.
And I'd be able to say, well, I might be out of your investment point, but here are three other practitioners that I know that are, and feeling fine in being able to do that.
Right.
And so what if as organizational leaders, we did that within our own missions.
As a part of our work, that actual business development or organizational development as the organizational leader was also about figuring out what your peers do and helping one another as a way to grow your own organization.
Yeah, I'm going to, I will be a testimony that it feels so good, you know, it feels so freeing because I, you know, board development, I could do that.
I could definitely figure it out if I, you know, I still live in yours.
Right.
We figure it out.
Right.
And I could figure out how to do it well, even.
Or I can just say no, and I can do what I really love and keep building that thing.
Because, you know, I'm a grant writer.
I, I have written over 17 million in grants.
I didn't want to start a business writing grants.
It's not a place I wish to be for the rest of my life.
I want to teach others how to do it because if I teach others how to do it, I know Now these nonprofits are going to be more stable.
They're going to be able to go further.
That's And do more.
Good.
That's that's right.
And my goal is for the world to grow and be better.
That's right.
And I just have one skill, but my skill can be really meaningful to a whole bunch of people.
Right.
And and so it feels so great.
It feels so great to be able to live in that space.
And I think you're so right that our organizations need to do that for their, for their own health.
And for the health of the sector as a whole, because when we have multiple organizations focused on similar missions, we do each have something, we still each have something super valuable that is unique and needs to be out in the world.
Just like our, just like those kindergartners, you know, you're right.
We do preach it to the babies and we need to preach it to ourselves, preach it to ourselves.
And I think, you know, one of the things that I would say, uh, I wrote a book recently that's coming out at the end of this year, about being busy.
And One of the things that I recognized in writing this book, so busy is a four letter word.
And this is about a guy who achieving more by doing less.
And this is from somebody who is a classic overachiever and a classic high achievers, what I like to say, and a Gen X er.
And you know, who came in under like boomers who got caught in that management vortex where we were sandwiched between boomers and millennials and identity crises.
And we're like, I'm the oldest girl and oldest child, but all of a sudden I'm a workplace middle child, you know, like, Yes.
These identity things are off the hook, right? So what do we do? We perform.
Yes.
And what I realize is that at what expense? And for me, it was my health.
For you, it was yours.
Right? Like, for many of us, it is our health, whether it's our physical health, our psychological health, our mental health, our financial health, our community health.
How many of us, particularly those of us who are starting organizations or scaling organizations, starting our companies, scaling our companies, go, just go ahead, honey, I'll be right there.
And you tip tip tap tap tap tap on the keys.
How many of us are like bleary eyed up at 4am just trying to get in one more thing because we got to get this proposal in before we have to get up the kids, go take our mom to the doctor's appointment, go do the so and so.
How many of us are at the light putting on lip gloss or shaving in the car? Hello, let's not leave anybody out.
Yep.
And the reality is.
That I really deeply would believe that if we are able to see.
Our health and our wellbeing as our responsibility and not a luxury that we're able to model that for our organizations.
Cause if we look at the numbers right now, and I gotta make sure I get the right number.
Cause I, I, you know, you see something once and you're like, I saw it, but then what is this? Yeah.
And those over 60%.
But our young people, these, uh, babies who are coming out of college right now, they have no interest in being managers.
They don't want to be in charge.
They don't want to be at the top.
Let them get their paycheck and go on and play pickleball.
They are not interested when you and you and I came into the work.
I just want it to be, I need to do to get there, you know? And so they, they've got something figured out that we may not have.
And I don't want them to swing that far this way.
But I think they're going to need to be, yeah, they're going to need to be leaders at some point.
They're going to need to be.
How can we do it all? How can we be good leaders and good community members and good family members? And I believe it's possible.
I think that, yeah, other or other countries have demonstrated it's possible.
So we have evidences that we can do it.
So absolutely, absolutely.
I could probably talk to you for another hour or two.
How can people find you and how can people get ahold of you? Absolutely.
So, thankfully my name is Kashana Palmer everywhere.
And if you just type in K I S H S into Google, I appear it's so great.
Thank you, mom and dad.
But you can find me at Kashana Palmer.
com.
You can find me on Kashana Palmer across all socials.
And if you're interested in learning more about how to do management differently you can head right on over to management, M I N T dot C O.
That's our company's website.
And then grab our book, right? Like, because I want all of us to be able to live our lives with ease.
And it doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it can have ease.
And I want to see what you guys can do.
Ease and excellence.
I love that.
Thanks.
So thank you so much.
Thank you listeners for tuning in this week.
We look forward to more conversations with more experts in the future.
So subscribe and follow, and we'll see you next week.
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Nonprofit411.
I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.
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