Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / Creating Collisions | Third Spaces | The Volunteer App

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Creating Collisions | Third Spaces | The Volunteer App · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

0:00
Hi, Benny here and I'm here with George Velachos AKA Digital
0:03
Nachos. Welcome.
0:04
Welcome, George. Thank you, glad to be here.
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Good to be have you here, you. For the people who don't know
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George, he's been the legend who's built our volunteer
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management app. So 12 months ago or even 16
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months ago, we we didn't have volunteers.
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But then all this stuff needed to get done each week and we
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were sort of scratching our heads how to organise it.
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But George lucky as a friend of mine and sort of came in with
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this problem because we'd looked at some other volunteer
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management software and they were super confusing, super
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expensive. And George just said, oh, I'll
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just build you 1. And I said what?
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And he just whipped one up in about a week and it's been
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unbelievable. So I thought it's really
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important to get you on for a number of reasons.
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One is thanks. But two, also some people know
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who's who's built this app that we've been all the volleys have
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been using every week. But before I get into that,
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we'll talk about the the app you've been travelling the last
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12 months around the world, a little bit of digital nomad and
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you've written as you got back, you wrote an essay called titled
1:02
The Architecture of Connection, How social collisions build
1:07
thriving communities. Why'd you write it and what's it
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about? We'll put it in the show notes,
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link to the show notes when he wants to read it, but.
1:15
Yeah, Yeah, it's a very early version of actually.
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You're probably the only person that actually shared with this.
1:22
Yeah, Ben, but I'm mostly working on like putting it in
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more plain English onto like a sub stack article, so hopefully
1:29
that'll be a bit more digestible as well.
1:33
Also legend. Come a bit closer, come a.
1:35
Little bit closer. OK, this face from the face.
1:37
Oh OK, hopefully this is better. That's good, but legend is a big
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word. I don't use it sparingly mate.
1:44
Do not use it sparingly. But so, OK, going back all the
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way, why have I written this and what's kind of motivated me to
1:51
write this? So yeah, I left, left Canberra
1:57
around October last year, stayed at the coast with some friends
2:02
for a few months and then kind of went around Australia for a
2:05
bit. And then for most of the year I
2:08
was going around Europe and the US and the whole mission was, I
2:13
know Canberra is amazing and like Australia is amazing, I
2:16
love it. We're pretty close to Sydney and
2:20
Melbourne. Like whatever, life is great.
2:22
But I'm a very curious person. So I was like, let's just go
2:28
around the world, try and see if there's a better place to live,
2:31
whatever that is for me, what that means.
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And I've like, after a year of travelling, I've sort of nailed
2:38
it down to what it means for me. So for me, I want to be
2:41
somewhere where people are ambitious, but not ambitious to
2:46
the degree of backstabbing everyone else.
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Like I want it to be still be a very kind of purposeful social
2:52
community, helping each other out and helping support the
2:57
whole community, not to the degree of like detrimental to
3:01
each other. So I had been to the US for a
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bit. A little bit of backstabbing
3:07
there was there. No, no, no, I just like it.
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No, like for me, just travelling around, it's hard to get
3:13
backstabbed, you know, because I'm maximum two weeks out of
3:15
place and it's not. Long enough?
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It's not long enough to get stabbed, is it?
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Too. Wait, that's right, that's
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right. I was like maybe not, not long,
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not too long so I can get backstabbed.
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So I guess to not drag out the the background too long, I sort
3:32
of realised that yes, certain places attract certain kinds of
3:36
people, but at the end of the day, that's what the ideal place
3:40
is all about the people. So for me, I can try and maybe
3:44
pick a better place and deal with the trade offs that it has,
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or I can be a little bit crazy and try and bring all the best
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things from era, all the different places that I
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experienced in the world back to the place I know, which is
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Canberra. So like looking back in my life,
4:04
certain kind of decision frameworks and what's led me to
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where I am, I've always had the mindset of wanting to be the
4:12
change that I want to see in the world.
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So I was like, at least I can try for 12 months and see what
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happens. And so this is kind of like I
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stumbled across some very interesting books while I was
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also thinking about those kind of things.
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And it sort of just helped me put everything together and
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connect everything as to what I think Canberra is missing and
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what can be done to make it better.
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Obviously this is very personal based on my experience, but.
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And what makes you think it's the people like you just said
4:46
that you want to, yeah, bring people together, But like, why
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is that? What like you're a open source
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developer and your former Co founder told me that you're a
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big like that open source community really helped teach
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you how to learn how to code and that you always felt very
5:02
grateful back to back to that community.
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So what is that? Is that been a big part that
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experience been a big part of why you sort of want to bring
5:10
people together for the better of Canberra And then I guess how
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and then you really talk about this social collisions.
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I guess, sorry, answer that first question, then we'll get
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into this social collisions because it's something I found
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really interesting, which is super applicable to our for our.
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Yeah. So I mean, you start to, you
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know, if you look at life, you're going to use the onion
5:30
analogy. For me, it's like you peel back
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the layers of the onion. It's like, yes, work is
5:36
important. Yes, whatever is important.
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Like what are some people like cooking, art, music, all those
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things are important. But at the end of the day, what
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is behind all those things? It's people, relationships.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you break it down to the
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very foundational layout, it's always people.
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Like there's people behind everything.
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So for me, it's like pretty like simple.
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Now, in my head, I've probably gone through too many
6:04
existential crisis to get to this point, but yeah, that's
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sort of like having a good community, looking out for each
6:12
other. That's kind of like humans have
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evolved. Like, I hate to use the
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historian perspective, but if you want to go we.
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Haven't evolved past the need of our genetics, not needing
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community and other people. Yeah, that's what I personally
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think. Yeah, that's right.
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No I agree, but then what do you so like?
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But then why did you write this? Was it just, you've just
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travelling and you had lots of thoughts and you just want to do
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a bit of a brain dump at the end and try and link it all
6:39
together? And then let's expand on this
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social collisions bit. So, you know, like why, what,
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what is the purpose of writing it?
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Like obviously you want to bring people together to help make
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Canberra better and to maximise it's potential.
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All that's in a in a positive way.
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But then and then, yeah, what about the these cat of the
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collisions play into that? Yeah.
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So it's I've tried to think about it a few different angles
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to try and explain this, but essentially one, it was first
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hand evidence. So while I was travelling, I
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actually did a bunch of dinners with strangers.
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So there's a few apps out there at the moment where you just
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sign up and you just, there's like usually 6 or 7 strangers
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have dinner with them. Dinner with strangers?
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Never met them. You don't get to see a profile
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of them. Before nothing you didn't know
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anything about. The only thing I think they tell
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you is like the nationality which the user picks and there's
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a very brief you don't know about each person that just
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tells you what kind of industry everyone's in, like work wise.
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So I was like, I'm a curious person again, I might as well
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try and meet some other what? City was this in?
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I did it in all sorts of different cities yeah.
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So this is so time left is 1 app did that across Europe and the
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US and then the US has another really cool app called 222 and.
8:05
That's New York based, that one. Is that the one you showed me?
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Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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So it's New York, Chicago, LA, like pretty much the major U.S.
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cities. But doing that made me realise,
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like you, just the wildest things in a very wild, in a very
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good way happen when you least expect it.
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So yes, you can try and optimise like, oh, I want to meet this
8:30
person, I want to meet this person.
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Or like, I want to do this, but having some sort of capacity of
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leaving yourself open to chance encounters and serendipity is
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like, you never know what's going to come out of that.
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And a lot of the times, if not all the times, it's actually
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very positive and very meaningful.
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So that's kind of my thinking behind social collisions is we
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just, I would love to increase the amount of random social
9:00
collisions that happen in public.
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So there's the chance encounters that you just, it's not like a
9:06
networking thing where it's, you know, you're meeting this person
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because you think there's a way they can benefit you or vice
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versa. It's just this chance encounter
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that's just not architected or like designed or artificial is
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that that's what a collision is. So.
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I hate networking events. I absolutely despise them.
9:25
Like, but if I'm at a cafe, I will always talk to someone at
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that cafe. If I'm waiting in the line, I
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will always try and make a mistake.
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I'm not going to like jump in and be like, hey, you talking to
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your friend? Yeah, yeah, talk to you.
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No, I'm not going to do that. But you can get a, a general
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vibe of is this person open to being talked to?
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Are they not? And so a lot of the times this
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is the thing, I'm just going to go back to travel a little bit.
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But this is the thing I realised when I came back to Australia,
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there were a couple of things that I was really missing from
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my travel, but not in a way that made me want to travel again, in
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a way that made me want to bring them to my day to day life.
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And one of them was just, you know, we can just say whatever
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we want and. When you're travelling.
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Yeah, when you're travelling. But like in general, as it turns
10:16
out, not just when we're travelling, like we've got
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thoughts, we can say them and people react and we can have a
10:22
conversation. Like that's it.
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But we don't, I mean, I don't share everything, all my
10:27
thoughts, especially in my community because I might offend
10:29
people or I guess what you're saying when you're travelling
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there's a lot more freedom than what you say, might not come
10:36
back to bite you in the arse long term.
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But how many times has it come back to bite you like it hasn't?
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I don't know because I keep my mouth shut all.
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The time, maybe that's. Yeah, maybe.
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You share all my opinions. Yeah, you can tell who's the
10:49
wiser one in here, but. I'm good at apologising when I.
10:56
Yeah, yeah. But for me I guess like
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sometimes. It's I miss the freedom to just
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wish I could just always just say what's on my mind like and
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that's a sign of a good friend. It's some I have a few friends
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brainy just about top of the list who is just so I can tell
11:10
him whatever I'm thinking and I know I won't feel judged even if
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what I say is complete garbage and not not well thought out.
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Like it might offend him or upset him but he just knows it's
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just me just working things soon.
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If I do overstep the line I apologise but yeah, so brainy.
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Yeah, he knows what I'm talking about.
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We've had a few convos where I've not let RIP but just word
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vomited. But like.
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And that's a big part of our friendship and the trust that I
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have around him, that I trust him, that I can just be myself
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and word vomit around and that he's not going to judge me for
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it. But like, can I, can I role play
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for a little bit? So if a stranger came up to you
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and they started telling you their thoughts, would you tell
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them that's garbage, Don't talk to me.
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No, I'd listen. Exactly.
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If I wasn't in a rush, yeah. I didn't need to be that girl.
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That's OK. Have you thought about this or?
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Usually, or for me, I, like I said, I do it when I'm sitting
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down at a cafe. So if I see someone just holding
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a cup of coffee, I'm going to assume they're not in a rush.
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So it's like a lot of it is just.
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So the environment creates this context where you think you,
12:17
you, they're open for a conversation and.
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Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I see someone rushing
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to get a taxi, I'm not going to go and say oh hey.
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Hey can we have a chat? Yeah, where are you going real
12:26
quick? Can I interview you?
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Or like, you know, I'm not going to do that.
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But if someone's just sitting down, they're comfortable,
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they're not in a rush and like, yes, I'm not going to go just
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blur whatever is I'm thinking. But I'm just trying to show, I
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guess, in a way that if someone talks to you like is very pure
12:47
with their thoughts, with their thoughts and tell you what they
12:49
think, you're not going to maybe you'll judge them, sure.
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Maybe you're like, maybe I don't want to talk to this.
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Yeah, yeah, I don't want to talk to this person again.
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But chances are you're going to listen to them.
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You're not going to tell them straight to their face.
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It's like just being open minded and being like conscious that
13:07
everyone goes through, regardless of whether they're
13:09
your close friend or someone's strange, like a complete
13:11
stranger. We're all humans and doesn't
13:15
make much of a difference to me. So back to the, you say in the
13:18
cafe, and it's like the context. If someone's rushing to get
13:21
their taxi, you can't really talk to them.
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But if they're in the cafe, it's the environment that creates the
13:26
permission for a conversation, which is something we try and do
13:29
on a Wednesday night or whenever after you do a run, there's
13:32
permission and the environment to have a chat.
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I mean, for people who haven't read or whatever, assume no one
13:37
else has read, read this. How are some other ways based on
13:40
what you've seen around the world around creating more of
13:43
those environments for these social collisions 'cause you
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also state that, you know, there's two types of importance
13:49
that are you call them it's social capital, but really it's
13:53
like it's friendship. There's like obviously the long
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term, like family friendships. And then there's the these more
13:59
bridging capital, which are like just the day to day.
14:04
What's the word like? The weak there's like.
14:08
Weak ties. What's the weak ties?
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Yeah. And then how if you those weak
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ties can eventually then with enough collisions can grow into
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real friendships. But yeah, how do you reckon we
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can design, especially Canberra and Afra, to create more of
14:24
these environments which increase these collisions?
14:27
Yeah, I mean, I think that's one thing that Alpha is absolutely
14:30
nailing because we do not have enough third spaces in, I mean,
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definitely in Canberra, but in Australia in general.
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The one thing I absolutely loved about the US and Southeast Asia
14:44
is that I could just go like anywhere, at any Cafe, pull out
14:49
my laptop. I would find other people
14:51
working there's. But like there's something for
14:55
everyone. Whether you're into fitness,
14:56
you're whether you're into like Co working and meeting those
14:59
kind of people, whether you just want to go out for a drink.
15:01
There's so many third spaces in the open at various times
15:06
throughout the day. Explain the third space just for
15:08
anyone that hasn't had the term. The simplest way you can explain
15:12
it is there's kind of two main spaces in our lives.
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One's our workplace, the second is our home, and a third space
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is kind of just any space that is not those two.
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So it could be just out in the park, it could be a cafe,
15:29
literally. Place to make friends or hobbies
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or. Yeah, it doesn't.
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That's the, this is my naive interpretation.
15:37
Like it doesn't actually have to be that productive.
15:40
It doesn't have to have a focus to.
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It doesn't have to be I'm going to go there to make friends or
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I'm going to go there to do something.
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It's just maybe I'm sick of work and home and I just want to go
15:52
somewhere else to decompress out of those two things.
15:55
And again, this is me jumping ahead, but if you're open minded
15:59
and you just go somewhere else, like maybe you'll meet someone,
16:02
maybe there'll be some chance encounter.
16:04
Well, you get in, you get into like the social anxiety.
16:07
I don't know what page it's on that I think holds a lot of
16:10
people back when we've heard from our for our like feedback
16:13
we've had, especially with the big crowds.
16:15
I don't know where it is, but you, you, you describe it pretty
16:19
like spot on around. Oh, there's social anxiety.
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It effects a huge amount of adults, which manifests worrying
16:25
about upcoming social events, fear of judgement and and
16:28
creates avoidance behaviours. And that events with clear
16:32
structure, defined duration and shared focus reduces anxiety and
16:36
these barriers and increases attendance.
16:38
So which is something I think we're doing pretty well at our
16:42
for our. So my brain's just what were we
16:44
talking about? No, no.
16:45
No, Yeah, so. We want to create more of these
16:48
third spaces. Sorry, that's right.
16:49
Why do we need more of them? Apart from, I guess they're just
16:53
good stress relievers from the work and work at home, yeah.
16:58
Why is Australia, why is Canberra falling behind in the
17:02
third space department compared to the US and South East Asia?
17:05
Yeah, yeah. So for example, on my second day
17:09
back in Canberra from coming back to Australia, I just had a
17:14
random chat as I do in the cafe, like here, my favourite cafe in
17:20
Canberra with this lady long term in the APS, lovely lady.
17:24
And we both kind of bonded over how there's nothing, there's
17:29
nothing open after 5:00 PM. It's like, oh, you know, just
17:33
like a quick drink after work somewhere close by in the city
17:37
or some people, not even a drink, just like a coffee.
17:40
You're not going to especially coffee, you're not going to find
17:42
anything else. But yeah, everyone listeners,
17:44
not a good way to get sleep if you haven't have our coffees.
17:47
Sure, you can get decaf, some people have coffee and you know
17:52
they have 5 coffees a day and they're fine.
17:55
But choice is good, right? Like and that's coming back to
17:58
why having more third space isn't is important.
18:01
I'm not saying let's go open up 24/7 cafes everywhere.
18:05
I think having multiple choices. So some people would like a
18:08
cafe, some people like to get active.
18:11
Or pub. Pub.
18:12
Yeah, Pub is a great example. I remember you were telling me
18:16
about. I didn't know about this.
18:18
Well, yes, the pubs were originally called public houses.
18:20
You write and you write. Amazing thing in here about the
18:22
Penny University. Yeah, yeah, you.
18:24
Originally like the term, because I know there's the cafe
18:27
in Kingston. I don't know what page it was
18:29
on. Oh, here we go.
18:30
Yeah. And the King Charles over tried
18:33
to ban him because in 1675, yeah, there was Penny
18:36
University. It was like a cafe where you'd
18:38
pay a penny to get in 2 pence for your coffee, and then you
18:41
could have wide ranging discourse.
18:44
Yeah, which was like a place for free speech and conversation.
18:48
And yeah, King Charles tried to suppress it and ban it and tell
18:51
you there was a huge public uproar.
18:53
And yeah, this there was a space to come and chat and connect,
18:56
kind of like what this space is. Exactly.
18:58
But yeah, we're conversation we had this morning.
19:01
Exactly, exactly. And that's, that's the other
19:03
thing like Co Co working is another 3rd space.
19:06
Like it's not necessarily an office where you're bounded in a
19:09
way. I mean, it depends on the
19:11
environment. I'm getting a bit out of out.
19:12
Of well, this is how we met. Oh no, we met through Startup
19:15
Striders, which was like another chance.
19:17
That's right. Which?
19:18
Is very, which is just a group that goes to park runs on
19:20
Saturday. They're interested in startups.
19:22
Yeah, it's just a WhatsApp group.
19:24
Yeah. And that's how we said we were
19:26
running a couple of times through I guess that and that's
19:29
probably what I've. Well, I guess I wanted to talk
19:31
about it. This is, I think, running for
19:32
resilience and park run out of places for these chance
19:35
collisions. And then when you have a few of
19:36
these, you collide them. We collided at work club, yes,
19:42
Co working space and that's how sort of our friendship grew.
19:45
And then when I I came to you with the problem about how we
19:47
were trying to manage running for resilience Vault, running
19:48
for resilience volleys, and then you offered amazing.
19:53
Exactly like. It's just such a good example.
19:55
Exactly how? How do we get to you?
19:57
It's just chance like. We were just both open minded,
20:02
kind of going to different third spaces, kept meeting up and
20:06
that's that's like the more diversity you have in the third
20:09
spaces, the easier it is to actually philtre people, I think
20:12
because then you're like, Oh, this one person keeps coming to
20:16
all the other things that I'm going.
20:18
So you're like, oh, maybe we're probably.
20:20
Got something similar with that guy.
20:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, because a lot like, so
20:25
this is something, yeah, you wrote about, yeah, the
20:28
collisions and incidental bump insurance and how that sort of
20:32
really sparks, those incidental bump insurance is what sparks
20:35
sort of by people who become end up becoming friends.
20:40
And you argue that there's, you know, it is very important for
20:43
her to have lots of like weak ties, something that my wife
20:47
would strongly disagree with. And I've had a lot of debates
20:50
with her because I've moved heaps.
20:52
I know a lot of people, like I got a lot of Facebook friends,
20:55
the people that are actually like everywhere we go, we joke
20:57
that I sort of know someone just because, yeah, they've just
20:59
moved around and met every people through sport and the
21:01
pub. But she thinks she believes you
21:05
only actually need like a couple of really good friends and and
21:08
she's unbelievably super close to the family and she actually
21:12
doesn't believe in weak ties at all.
21:14
Can you for just anyone that's listening, my wife is listening.
21:17
Can you go into bat for the weak ties, like those weak
21:20
connections? And I certainly think you you've
21:24
got to have a few very, really strong relationships, like
21:27
especially with family and and there are like some really core
21:31
friendships. But what were those other
21:33
benefits of those weak ties and having a lot of, yeah, having a
21:37
lot of connections? I guess I would love, can I flip
21:41
back the question and it's OK to know, but I would actually love
21:44
to understand more about the rationale for thinking that
21:49
strong ties, like strong bonds are the only thing that's needed
21:54
if that makes. Sense well, and my argument to
21:55
her is what happens if something happens to those if you only got
21:57
a few really strong ties and something happens to those ties.
22:00
Yeah, that's another thing. Yeah, yes.
22:03
And whereas if you've got a lot of friendships, I guess they're
22:06
not as strong, Some will, some may grow kind of like a garden,
22:09
some will grow big, some might not.
22:11
And you don't really know, I guess that's why.
22:15
But I do agree especially, and that's something social media
22:18
plays a lot on. People get caught up in having
22:20
their follower count and I've got millions of it, like Avicii,
22:23
one of my favourite artists, you know, millions of followers,
22:27
brilliant DJ, unbelievably lonely and took his own life.
22:30
So I guess that's, that's, yeah, an example of probably too many
22:35
weak ties having millions of fans.
22:37
But they're no no really strong, strong relationships.
22:41
Yeah, yeah. So I guess my view on that is
22:44
like everything in life needed, everything is good in
22:47
moderation. So you definitely like having
22:51
your family and keeping those strong bonds is really
22:55
important. Like you look out after one
22:57
another, you're always there for one another.
23:00
But as flawed humans that we are and the kind of experience that
23:08
we accumulate across our lifespan is very limited based
23:13
on our like brain and eyes that we have, right?
23:18
So and the environment that we're in.
23:20
So one is by actually just opening yourself out there to
23:24
the world, you learn more about what what is.
23:28
More people you make, the more information you get.
23:30
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And there's, like, a lot.
23:35
And bad. Good and bad and you have to be
23:37
very careful of course, like anything.
23:39
And another thing is like I try whenever I think about
23:43
something, whether it's like a social, I love maths or computer
23:47
science from a computer science background, I try and like find
23:51
the parallels across all those concepts.
23:53
So then like you in investing, you look at the concept of like
23:58
don't put all your eggs in one basket or you get to diversify
24:01
your portfolio. And I can go into the reasons of
24:05
why they say you're going to diversify your portfolio, but
24:09
there's if you look at it from a very woo woo high level.
24:14
Diversify your friendships. Not yeah, yeah, just diversify
24:18
your interactions. Like I wouldn't even.
24:20
I think having friendship, solid friendships is good and you
24:23
can't always go and keep making new friends.
24:27
I think for me, weak ties is not necessarily go out there and
24:31
make as many friends as you can. It's just go out there, meet
24:35
someone you be genuinely interested about.
24:38
Even if it's just like an hour or 30 minutes or 15 minutes,
24:41
like you guys talk, you'll get an idea of who they are and who
24:45
knows what might happen out of that or who knows what might
24:48
happen down down the track. But what what are the barriers
24:52
to do? I mean, obviously there's the
24:54
fear of going to dinner with six strangers or 7 strangers.
24:58
Is that something you're going to keep doing now you're back in
25:00
Canberra or is it just a something that you do when
25:03
you're travelling and you've actually got time?
25:06
So I actually did. You've done.
25:08
You've done my first dinner with strangers in Canberra.
25:12
Was it 2 weeks ago? I think yeah, because I was
25:14
really excited. I was like, I'm curious to see
25:17
how this is going to go in Canberra.
25:21
I don't want to. Obviously I'm saying all these
25:24
exciting things I said about Canberra.
25:25
I don't want to bag Canberra but I went in with pretty low
25:29
expectations and that's just because I know the nature of.
25:33
You know what most Cam barons do?
25:35
And exactly, I was like the typical Cam Baron would not
25:38
attend something like this. I was curious to see what kind
25:40
of people would go. So funnily enough half the
25:45
people didn't show up. So out of 6/3 didn't show up.
25:50
The other person was from Melbourne and then the other
25:53
person had moved from Sydney to Canberra in the last three
25:57
years, I think. And I'm going to be honest, it
26:01
wasn't like the best experience, but I would still like, I still
26:05
want to actually do it again and see what next time it's going to
26:08
be like. And I still learned something
26:11
about those people. Well, what are the other
26:14
challenges of Campbell you just said with bringing people
26:17
together? You just said obviously that
26:18
experience wasn't maybe maybe it's just because you're from
26:21
Canberra and the New York. I mean, it's hard to argue
26:24
Canberra would ever be more exciting going to dinner in
26:26
Canberra than going to dinner in New York.
26:27
But what are you've said some really interesting stuff that we
26:30
spoke about earlier today, Like what are some of the other from
26:34
what everything that you've seen around third places, what are
26:36
the challenges to Canberra that like are unique to Canberra and
26:41
bringing people together? Like, what are some of the other
26:43
challenges I I've read? I mean, it's just that people
26:47
who haven't read what you wrote, what are some other challenges
26:50
that are for or anyone working to try and bring people
26:54
together, What are some of the challenges, yeah, that people in
26:56
Canberra face? It's going to be really
26:58
controversial. No, I think Canberra is like,
27:03
it's too comfortable. It's so easy like.
27:07
Shouldn't it be easy then to bring people together?
27:09
You would think so. You would think so.
27:13
I'm so I'm very fond of this saying like I'm going to butcher
27:19
it, but it goes something like, and I don't want to be like, say
27:23
I'm going to be trying to be politically correct, but tough
27:26
times create so good times create weak men or women.
27:32
You can substitute for either. So good times create weak men,
27:35
weak men create tough times, tough times create strong men or
27:38
women again. So there's kind of like this
27:41
cycle. It's a cycle, yeah.
27:42
So when things are too easy, we get, I get comfortable.
27:47
I'm like, oh, life is pretty good.
27:49
Like I don't have to do much. I.
27:51
Can if everyone's lonely like in Can't Roll and then it's a super
27:54
high in Canberra maybe it is tough times at the moment.
27:57
Yeah, that's right. Even though economically
27:59
Canberra's pretty good house prices are great, people get
28:01
paid well. Yeah.
28:03
So a lot of people are saying they're lonely.
28:05
So that's one thing that we're seeing and everyone's kind of
28:09
glued to their phone as well, which like exacerbates that.
28:13
But that's a universal thing of, of phones.
28:15
What what do you think it is specifically to camera?
28:17
Other than that it's really life's comfortable.
28:19
So you think because it's comfortable, people just
28:22
struggle to do the uncomfortable thing of going out and meeting
28:25
strangers that we're just, we're just so used to everything being
28:29
comfortable that we just, we really struggle doing something
28:31
uncomfortable. Is that the main thing you think
28:34
Canberra phones? That's what kind of a universal
28:37
thing that struggles with that. I mean, so yes, cultural thing
28:41
I'd say is definitely one of the main things, but I also don't
28:45
think there are many actual opportunities to like, let's
28:49
say, OK, I'm, I'm comfortable to go and meet strangers as someone
28:53
in Canberra, how do I do that? There's obviously there's art
28:56
for art. There's other sort of social
28:59
communities. Park run.
29:00
This is running. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot
29:02
of run clubs, which is awesome. And I love run clubs.
29:05
I go to them like I don't love them, but let's say someone
29:09
who's not interrounding, OK, there's some walking groups,
29:12
let's go past the fitness like world.
29:15
What's there next? Was there like websites like
29:19
made up and? Yeah, but what?
29:22
What? What is their meet up?
29:25
I don't know is there camera events on there?
29:27
I, I don't think so. I've I so I've been to some tech
29:30
events in the past. Some of them have stopped
29:32
happening. Some of them have like, sort of
29:36
happening, but they've changed and it's hard to keep them
29:39
going. And so a lot of it is maybe, and
29:43
this is kind of what it's like a shameless plug.
29:47
Now. It's a good segue.
29:51
Like for me it's like, yeah, how do we take the initiative and
29:56
actually do something that attracts other people instead of
30:00
always looking for what other people are doing and going to
30:03
that? So for me that means like the
30:06
exact, there's not enough things happening in Canberra.
30:09
Maybe some of it is a meet up or Eventbrite.
30:11
So one of my ideas was I bought the domain Canberra dot events
30:16
and I want to make that the single source of truth for all
30:19
the events happening in Canberra, make it completely
30:21
free to use. I want to make it better than
30:24
like meet up, Eventbrite, Humanities, all those platforms.
30:26
So it's actually people want to use it and so hopefully that
30:29
will make it a bit easier to host events.
30:32
Like it doesn't have to be paid events, it can be free events.
30:36
And lots of people can just Chuck their events on it.
30:38
Free to yeah, free to post. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:42
And then when's that going live? It's a very good question,
30:45
people. Want to know?
30:46
Yeah. Well, early, early next year.
30:50
OK. Yeah, I'll keep it as vague as
30:52
that. But I mean, obviously there's
30:54
demand for that. But one final thing I wanted to
30:59
and I probably this is my my turn.
31:00
Never rant. Yeah, yeah, it was was about why
31:02
I can. I think Canberra loneliness is
31:06
so bad. And you've said, and you say it
31:08
in the about we've got a car culture, especially in Australia
31:12
that we all like we live so spread out.
31:15
The average Australian's house is it's the average Australian
31:18
house is 10% bigger than the average Americans house.
31:20
We don't know. We this is, I think this strange
31:23
dream is playing a big part in the earliness that we're all
31:26
trying to move out and have our own Aussie dream quarter acre
31:28
block that we just yeah, we're sort of we're living physically
31:34
further from each other and further away from work.
31:37
So we have to like spend a lot of time driving into work and
31:40
driving back, which then just doesn't leave enough time in the
31:43
day to go and do stuff socially. And then I mean, not tinfoil
31:50
hat, but this is what I believe. There's also like the decline in
31:53
religion that people, I think some people are just putting all
31:57
their purpose and the meaning of life is in like work and paying
32:03
their mortgage. It's like their whole life is
32:05
revolving around. And then there's and how you
32:07
provide for your family is super important, Don't get me wrong,
32:09
but just hope the big reason why I want to have this discussion
32:12
and more and more these discussions help people realise
32:14
how important with community and spending time with friends and
32:19
family. That's I feel a big part of life
32:22
or any whatever you want to call it, like a big part of purpose.
32:25
And that which is what I mean religion gave everyone was a
32:28
weekly gathering of people that they knew and trusted and talked
32:33
about belief structures. Whether you believe it or not,
32:36
there's so much good stuff about religion.
32:38
And I think a big part of the mental health struggle is this
32:41
decline in purpose and that people are replacing it with,
32:45
with work. Yeah, with work and then paying
32:48
the mortgage. And that, I think's making
32:50
people miserable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:52
And like, obviously, again, just banging on about the phones, but
32:56
it's like so easy to get the dopamine hit.
32:59
Well to then then that's to like numb the pain that you're
33:02
miserable because you made this choice to work heaps, have a big
33:05
ass big mortgage, grind hard and job you don't like.
33:09
Yeah, and you're in pain because you're not getting out and
33:13
you're spending huge long work hours and you're not seeing
33:16
friends. You're not getting the oxytocin,
33:18
you're not exercising, you're not getting the endorphins.
33:20
And it's just. And that's.
33:22
Yeah, I feel like, I don't know, as we talked about before, just
33:26
I've kept my opinions very close to my chest and now letting them
33:29
out. And you, I mean, hopefully no
33:31
one listens to this episode. And then they come up.
33:33
To me and go, oh, how dare you bag the Australian dream.
33:36
And then mate, of course it's important to buy a house and
33:38
provide for your family, but just gone too far.
33:42
Yeah, gone too far. We've not allowed time for those
33:44
third spaces. It's just work from homework,
33:47
from homework, homework. Like even if there was third
33:50
spaces, people just don't have time because of how they're
33:53
prioritising their life. That's yeah, there's a really
33:57
good point. I'm you're.
33:59
Still gonna be friends with me even though no.
34:01
No, I think we're we're very much in a good.
34:03
If I was travelling I would say that to anyone that listened.
34:07
I kept it very quiet. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's
34:10
actually so the Co founder of Eucalyptus has some really good
34:14
videos about. Charlie Gearside.
34:17
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. So he's got some really good
34:21
content. Yeah, he says, the Aussie
34:22
dream's dead. Yeah, yeah, obviously in a very
34:26
extreme way. I think he's right in many ways.
34:30
And actually, I, I really remember this was like 5 years
34:33
ago, I was at an interview for a public service department and
34:37
they had they scenario they asked us to do is if you had 60
34:41
minutes, 60 seconds in an elevator with the Prime
34:44
Minister, what would be the most pressing issue that you would
34:48
bring up to them? And for me, it was, I just kind
34:50
of went ham about how people should not focus on housing as
34:55
an investment and the whole concept.
34:58
But then again, I'm going to flip it on his head and I'm
35:03
obviously just wired very different.
35:06
But going back to your point, I think the distance thing about
35:11
housing and how spread out we are.
35:13
Especially in Canberra. I woke up at 2:00 AM and I drove
35:19
3 hours from Merimbula to Canberra and I was here at 5:00
35:23
AM. Went for a coffee at Kita and
35:26
then went for a walk around the lake with a friend at 6:00 AM
35:29
so. You've had a big day.
35:31
Yeah, but I love it. It's like it's only you're
35:34
talking about 20 minutes and like, I don't know, it's, it's
35:37
only an issue if you make it kind of thing.
35:39
It's, I don't know, it's it's a hot take.
35:43
It's a hot take. No, no.
35:45
And doing that, if you were doing that every day, though,
35:48
driving up from Roomba every day like that would be pretty odd.
35:52
If that's what I had to do, I would do it.
35:54
You mean you do it every day when you drive back now?
35:56
Yeah, I'll drive back today. Drive back again.
35:58
OK, yeah, kudos to you. It's worth, for me, it's worth
36:01
it like even just the one chance encounter that I'll have or like
36:07
the things that I'm going to do it.
36:09
It makes you that the more difficult something is, the more
36:12
intentional and the more kind of value you want to get out of it.
36:17
So for me, I'm like, I'm so energised.
36:19
I'm, I'm like driving 3 hours. I'm really going to make it
36:21
worth my time and so. And then what if it isn't?
36:24
What if the one time you do it and it's not worth it, then what
36:26
do you? Are you back or are you going?
36:30
Oh well, that was it. But that how that's never going
36:32
to happen. Why?
36:34
Because for me the the the thing that makes it worse.
36:36
Said that Canberra dinner you went to was a bit of a flop.
36:40
Yeah, but I I learnt that I didn't.
36:42
I wouldn't have known it. Otherwise, but are you going to
36:43
go again? I'm going to go again.
36:45
Because that's life is a casino. And you sort of have to like
36:50
there's probably a terrible analogy.
36:52
Don't don't condone gambling, Yeah.
36:54
Don't don't gambling. No, but you know what I mean.
36:58
I'm being a bit crazy right now, but you just have to put
37:01
yourself out there and as long as you're doing, as long as
37:04
you're being yourself and you're having fun, then you'll attract
37:08
similar people. Well, I'm being being yourself
37:11
and having fun. The Volley app has done an
37:17
unbelievable job at helping bring people together.
37:20
I hope you enjoy working on it because it is just, I mean, it's
37:23
saving US hours, hours in the week.
37:26
Like how have you enjoyed? What have you learned from that
37:28
experience and what do you hope? I mean, we've spoken about
37:31
hopefully, you know, we called it run buddy initially, maybe
37:34
it's called Volley Buddy. We don't really know what to
37:36
call it, but it has just been so useful at bringing people
37:43
together around like, yeah, around an event, connect and
37:46
volunteer and give back. Like people, Yeah.
37:49
That people love volunteering. We're getting emails every week,
37:52
people wanting to volunteer, wanting to give back to Afrah
37:55
and that this app is kind of the structure to help people.
37:58
Give back what people. Yeah.
38:01
What are the plans going for? Like do you plan to do you want
38:05
to help more charities or and what do you give people a bit of
38:11
a rundown about what what you plan, what do you want it to do
38:15
long term? And maybe some sneak peek into
38:17
some of the features we're going to build or.
38:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a such a cool
38:22
journey just building that together and actually seeing it
38:25
get used. And that's kind of like the
38:30
reason I quit my job three years ago.
38:32
And I was like, let me try something on my own was I had
38:35
had so many horror stories about people in the software space,
38:41
like getting software services and just not getting anything or
38:45
being taken advantage of. So for me, it's like building
38:49
run buddy was something so simple and easy that I could
38:52
just chip away in my free time. And seeing the the kind of time
38:59
that I've dedicated versus the impact that it's had, it's a no
39:03
brainer for me. It's like I get joy and it's
39:05
like fun. I'm learning like generally a
39:08
curious person. I'm learning about how I had no
39:11
idea what it takes to run a community.
39:13
I had no idea what it takes to organise volunteers.
39:16
Like this is a world I would have never been exposed to and.
39:19
What have been the key learnings to that?
39:21
Like specific learnings that you've got?
39:22
Shit, I didn't realise that. Or is it just the sheer amount
39:26
of organising and what, what, Yeah.
39:28
What have been some interesting learnings you've had from the
39:31
year helping build Volley app? It takes a lot of effort to
39:36
organise people and get them together at a specific place a
39:40
specific time. And also for me, being super
39:45
technical, it's been super insightful to see from people
39:49
who have no tech background. Like what's simple for me is not
39:54
simple for someone else. It's actually working together
39:58
and you've got a very strong ethos of let's keep it as simple
40:02
as possible and. Because it's not their work.
40:05
When it's a work tool, you're kind of getting paid.
40:07
You've got to learn how to use it.
40:08
But people just want to volunteer.
40:10
They might only have a minute or two.
40:11
It's got it. Like it just has to be really
40:14
easy for them regardless of their tech level.
40:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And obviously we've talked a lot
40:19
about some potential risks and like is it?
40:23
But again, is it? Like is it worth introducing
40:26
more complexity to address those risks?
40:29
And in this case, it's probably no.
40:31
So it's just it's been like a full like a lot of learnings
40:37
both from like people perspective, but also like
40:41
actually we're building something for the people, not
40:44
something because oh, this is like cool tech.
40:47
We're on the people. I want to, firstly, if any of
40:50
you've got the volleys watching this, we want to.
40:52
I'm going to just bring something up on it.
40:55
Any of the volleys watching, please.
40:57
We'd love feedback. Georgia, tell them we want to
40:59
hear. I've seen some feedback in the
41:02
group chat already and I love seeing any like feedback.
41:07
Well, we've got a little leaderboard, we just want to
41:09
actually do a quick shout out for the people.
41:11
So we've been tracking and how many?
41:14
Oh, yeah, every time people enrol, it gets tracked and we
41:16
just need to do a few quick shout outs to the people, the
41:20
legends we had. It's no surprise.
41:22
Our top, actually. I'll work back.
41:23
I'll do. I'll read the top sort of seven
41:25
or eight, Jen, So an eighth. We had Jen Cunnington from 2
41:29
before 10, who's just amazing. She's volunteered 31 times this
41:33
year. D33 times Sunday 37, Trudy 39,
41:38
big Stewie Coats, 43 volunteers. Trisha, who'd only joined us
41:43
earlier this year, like mid this year, she volunteered 63 times,
41:48
but in first by a long way. And now the long time after our
41:53
people will know who this is at 106.
41:55
So it's second place. Someone volunteered 63 rolls and
42:00
we only ever let people do 2 in one night.
42:02
Yeah, that's right. Blocker on it.
42:03
So that's 50. Not well.
42:05
This person's 106 volunteers Ellie Tonkin It's a pretty round
42:10
of a pause, Ellie. We played the music.
42:12
Yeah, I know. Oh my gosh. 106, I mean there,
42:15
yeah, we've there. We've had total 55 people have
42:18
volunteered 729 different roles, we get 13.
42:25
The average person has done 13 roles a year and we've had 22
42:28
people volunteer in the last two weeks.
42:30
Jeez. All because of what you built
42:32
mate. So firstly, thank you to
42:35
everyone that's volunteered and last round of applause to
42:37
Georgie for for building that mate.
42:39
Yeah, super excited for what's next with it.
42:42
Yeah. What?
42:46
I'm out of question. No, you.
42:47
Talked about upcoming features and.
42:48
Where we want to go Plans for the run buddy?
42:51
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting even
42:53
just chatting with you, Ben. Like there seems to be like a
42:56
real need for something like a lot of organisations or like not
43:00
for profit communities, volunteer kind of focus.
43:03
Communities are struggling to manage volunteers just from
43:06
anecdotal evidence. But I mean, our, our plans, just
43:13
talking about how can we make it even more, even easier to
43:16
actually get some more data and understand how people use it,
43:20
automate some more stuff like the ongoing reminders, SMS
43:24
reminders, and really just making it super seamless for
43:28
people to use. Yeah.
43:32
I mean, there's a yeah, there's a cool, potentially very cool
43:36
opportunity that we've talked about in terms of like, is this
43:40
something that we've had a lot of learnings, a lot of iteration
43:44
building this platform, potentially package it as a full
43:50
on product and try and help more communities manage the
43:54
volunteers. So, yeah, it's, it's too early
43:59
to say. And obviously with all the
44:01
camera stuff that I want to do, like getting stretched for time
44:06
as well, but it's, it's, it's hard to ignore the fact that
44:10
there's something there. And it's 2 sided.
44:14
You're making it easier for the like, for the organisations to
44:17
go look. This is how we need help.
44:20
Yeah, we've got an event coming up.
44:21
We need help in these ways, but then you're also enabling people
44:26
who want to give back to causes they feel passionate about and
44:28
they've got a bit of spare time and they want to and energy and
44:31
they believe in this cause they want to help.
44:34
You're kind of it's enabling like that transaction, which in
44:39
a new report that volunteering's declining.
44:42
So that it's a sad trend nationally or internationally,
44:45
the volunteering is declining, but something we've kind of seen
44:49
is opposite, I mean for us. Yeah, yeah.
44:52
Park Run always, you know, they've got a tonne of volleys.
44:54
Like maybe the nature of volunteering is changing into
44:57
what people want to volunteer and how they want to volunteer
45:00
is changing. I think it's and I didn't know
45:04
how good volunteering is for my mental health.
45:06
When I like left rugby, I knew it was nutrition, sleep,
45:09
exercise. Didn't really know much about
45:12
importance of community, but learned that.
45:13
But I've also and then looking back, how much like being a part
45:17
of the Afro community, but then also giving back to the Afro
45:20
community, how good that's been for my mental health.
45:25
So I guess if we can enable that for more people, why not?
45:29
Yeah, yeah, I do. Like, yeah, you mentioned the
45:31
idea of like can also use it as a platform for upcoming
45:36
volunteers to actually find things to volunteer to.
45:40
Because yeah, if you want to volunteer, I guess you can reach
45:44
out to certain societies directly, but there's no other
45:47
way at the moment. No awesome man.
45:49
So Georgie, we'll wrap it up in a minute.
45:52
For anyone there that doesn't know your other work Digital
45:55
Nachos, do you want to give that a plug?
45:56
Sure. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
45:58
So I touched it a little bit. But the kind of force, the
46:05
driving force that made me start Digital Nachos one, it's a very
46:09
funky name and that's intentional.
46:11
Like I think work should be fun. And I don't think we should, you
46:15
know, focus on like enterprise corporate, you know, just be fun
46:18
and have fun and do a very good job while doing it as well.
46:22
Not just like, you know, half do things.
46:25
But yeah, I was really kind of frustrated with the fact that,
46:30
like, a lot of my close friends were, for lack of a better word,
46:34
like taken for a run of their money from different software
46:38
companies and different kind of suppliers in the software space.
46:42
So I was like, you know, what, if all these other businesses
46:47
can be sustainable with those practises, why can I be even
46:53
more sustainable with doing good work that's reasonably priced
46:57
and help businesses that actually need help?
47:01
And so that's kind of what I've been doing for the last three
47:05
years. It's just like all sorts of
47:07
different software development where I've worked with gyms have
47:13
worked with like HVAC companies that want to build their own
47:16
SAS, I've had the pleasure to work.
47:18
Like SAS software as a service for the non techies.
47:21
Yes, thank you. And I've also done some very
47:25
cool pro bono work for like different women's organisations
47:29
that's been super rewarding to actually see being used.
47:35
So yeah, I'm just super grateful to like work with good clients
47:41
and continue to do that. One way.
47:43
Super grateful. That's why I wanted to get you
47:44
under introduce you to everyone, but also like it.
47:49
Thank you for everything you've done and I wanted to get you on
47:53
also. And we're going to get Timbo
47:54
Fulton who built our website on as well.
47:56
The same but Timbo could make today as you 2 are two of the
48:00
two of there's many, but two of the best examples of just you
48:05
see a community trying to do something and you want to help
48:08
out using your unique skill set. What do you say to people or if
48:12
anyone's still listening, what do you say to them that they've
48:17
got this unique skill that they want to use, They want to help
48:22
benefit not just our fraud, but other charities.
48:24
What do you say to them? Like how?
48:27
I mean, I know I asked you, but Timbo, nicest guy in the world.
48:30
It took him a lot of courage to because he, our first website
48:34
was shit that Brandy built. Brandy knows it's terrible.
48:37
And Timbo finally irked. He liked what we're doing, love
48:39
what we're trying to do, but he's like, either guys, do you
48:42
mind if I build your new webs? And we're like, yeah, go for it.
48:44
Like Brandy put his best effort into it, but it was, it's not
48:48
Brandy's strength, but like how? Yeah.
48:50
Do you have any advice to people who've they've got this unique
48:53
skill set? Yeah.
48:58
Any to advise them to to get get involved with it and not just
49:01
our fraud but any charity and give back into trying to
49:03
leverage that skill set to make their community or other
49:06
communities better. Yeah, so this is going to be
49:09
super simple and super boring, and I'm not sponsored by Nike at
49:15
all, but just do it. That's literally, if I could
49:18
give any life advice would be just do it.
49:21
Like I think it's so important. Like when you have a set of
49:25
skills, the best thing you can do is find some way to help
49:32
people with those skills. You get like exchange for money,
49:36
kind of that's how business works.
49:38
So your two options are when you have the skills and you don't
49:41
have clients is you create some sort of portfolio so people can
49:46
see what you build and it's all like fake stuff or you have like
49:51
a tangible problem in your community that you can solve and
49:56
it's actually like the real results.
49:59
It's like that's a no brainer for me.
50:01
It's like from whatever perspective you look at it, it
50:05
is the best thing you can do is reach out to your community,
50:08
your friends, reach out to anyone.
50:10
And I think doing free work is completely underrated because
50:15
anything you do, I think anything.
50:17
It'll compound. It will compound and come back
50:19
to you. So that's my kind of only advice
50:23
that I have. Oh, and the flip side?
50:24
Charity's going to get better at saying where where they need
50:27
help. Yeah.
50:29
Yeah, so I said. I said we had this problem and I
50:31
knew you had the skills. Lucky I knew you knew some
50:34
skills. And I thought, what told you
50:36
that we were sort of struggling in this way.
50:38
Yeah. And then you stepped up to the
50:40
plate. So thank you.
50:41
No, it's good to to see both perspectives because yeah, for
50:44
me, I'm like, Oh yeah, it's like Ben just asked me, but no one
50:48
else has asked. I've actually posted on LinkedIn
50:51
a couple of years ago. I was like once a few.
50:54
No one asked. Free website or free software
50:56
services? No, no requests.
50:59
Yeah, Yeah. So you're right.
51:02
Ask, ask for help, I guess, and that's something that just not
51:05
just an organisational of individuals.
51:07
We're not very good at asking for help.
51:09
Finally, there's anyone else you'd love to see on there
51:11
Running Brazilians podcast? Who would it be?
51:13
Who should we get on next? You got a minute?
51:16
You have a thing. It's going to be a couple of
51:18
people. Does it have to be Canberra
51:20
local? Just we've had people said don't
51:22
want to hear Kim Kardashian. It could be anyone can be local
51:26
as well. And if you can make the intro,
51:29
that would be really helpful. Oh, this is going to be.
51:36
I'm going to need a minute for this, Yeah.
51:38
We can get the leaderboard up again, see how far Ellie's put
51:41
everyone to shame. Oh, the timing that how long
51:45
everyone takes to answer. Oh, the music.
51:49
Oh, right, right. Right.
51:50
No, I was just going to get the the.
51:52
Oh, the art to. Fill in time while you think of
51:55
an answer. What's the one minute later?
52:01
I wasn't prepared for this question.
52:21
I'm gonna go with the CEO of Anthropic.
52:30
OK, what's his name? Oh, Dario.
52:33
Almighty, yeah. Yeah, former Open AI employee.
52:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot. I mean a lot of maybe
52:39
controversial requests. I don't know.
52:41
Why? Why AI?
52:42
Why? So I think he does a really good
52:45
job of not just AI, but explaining.
52:50
He's actually written kind of like a short essay.
52:53
I'm going to butcher the name, but it's something like Thinking
52:56
Machines and something it's like a 4050 page short essay and it
53:04
talks about AI and how it can help different kind of aspects
53:11
of life and industries, but also damage them.
53:13
So he has ease seems to have a really this is just as an
53:18
outsider perspective. You never know interior motives,
53:22
but kind of the way his brain works seems pretty fascinating.
53:27
And he's got, he's got kind of medical background as well.
53:30
So yeah, it's sort of fascinating.
53:33
Can you hook a brother up if you ever meet him and he's in
53:36
Canberra? Actually we could zoom him in if
53:38
he was keen or his mate. Scam Altman.
53:41
That's someone I'd like. To not tiger, I would not like
53:44
to no not scam. But Georgie Velachos mate.
53:46
Bloody legend. Both.
53:47
Thank you. Thank you.