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Why the U.S. Men’s Team Has Never Won the World Cup · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: Look, I want to make something very clear. I am a big fan of water. I like taking hydration breaks myself. I think drinking water is really healthy. I think it's important for the body and soul. It feels weird in soccer. It feels very weird in this World Cup that we are now seeing hydration breaks, and that's where I want to start this conversation today, talking about water with Ryan O'Hanlon. He's a staff writer for ESPN, writes a soccer substack called No Grass in the Clouds, and he's working his butt off right now, covering this massive event in three countries, the World Cup. But Ryan, I wanna start with water. How do you feel about taking hydration breaks during a soccer match? RO: I was wondering where you were going with that. I wasn't sure if it was going to be like a blue Bruce Lee reference or something. DG: (Laughs) I mean it could be, could be. RO: I think it's awful. I think you know, the great thing about soccer, perhaps the reason we've yet to crack the nut in the United States, is that the clock starts, there's barely any rules, then the first half ends, and then you play the second half. The hydration break just feels, you know, I'm all for players, not. getting dehydrated and not getting sick on the field. But you're not supposed to be able to huddle with your team and give them advice halfway through a half in a game. There's not supposed to be a commercial break halfway through a game.  DG: Yeah. No, I and I I'm sort of a newbie when it comes to soccer. I've gotten into it probably the last like five, six years, but I thought one of the things that I had to tolerate as a fan was like as a fan who's used to commercials watching the NFL. I mean, it's 45 minutes of a half, and nothing interrupts it. Nothing. I mean, even an injury, like the clock keeps going and you put extra time on, and the only break there is is at the half between those 45-minute periods. I mean, this— it just feels so un-Soccer-like. But like you said, I don't want anyone to be unhealthy. Like, I don't want us to sit here, you and I, and say that we're against something that makes people healthy. But it's just weird. RO: It's not soccer-like, and also, funnily enough, perhaps not funnily enough, I think Fox is the only broadcaster I've seen that actually goes to commercial. Telemundo, you're still there with the players, you get to see them drinking water and all the sort of European broadcasters, they don't go to commercials. So, you know, it feels like a pretty extreme Americanization of soccer. DG: Yeah, well, and and and one that makes a lot of money for Fox, right? I mean, I don't wanna get into all sorts of conspiracy theories, but was this some sort of way to give Fox the ability to make hundreds of millions of dollars on running ads in the middle of a half when we should still be enjoying the game? RO: I think when you're thinking about FIFA, and you're wondering if this was a way to make people money, the answer is pretty much always yes. DG: There's the answer is probably yes. Yeah. Okay, so that's one thing I wanted to ask you about. The other thing that's weird, I think, is that there's suddenly talk of the United States, after at least their first kind of convincing win over Paraguay, maybe being a serious contender in this World Cup, after so many generations of not thinking of the United States as that serious a threat at all. And I was sort of shocked because you have a piece that argues statistically that the United States men are going to win this World Cup, and I've got to ask you about that because that would be completely wild. RO: I will say that the article is written with my tongue somewhat firmly in cheek. DG: Uh-huh. RO: Because every World Cup, we kind of there's always these kinds of like filters that we apply. One big one you'll hear, which I conveniently left out of this article, which should give you a sense of how sort of I cherry-picked everything. DG: How serious you are, yeah. RO: Like a foreign manager has never won a World Cup. So, a coach not from the country that he's coaching has never won a World Cup. So that's kind of tried it every year. It used to be if you lose the first game, you can't win the World Cup because that's never happened. But then Spain did it, and then Argentina did it in the last World Cup. A European team had never won outside of Europe. That was a big one. That ended when Spain won in South Africa. But there's always these kinds of historical little trivia bits that get applied to the World Cup as if they're sort of predictive. So I was sort of making fun of that in a way, but also like I think one of the amazing and horrible things about the World Cup is that it's incredibly random. Soccer is way more random than any of the American sports. Favorites win way less often simply because there's one you can tie and then two, the amount of scoring, there's barely any scoring. So my like analytical mind is like the World Cup should be random. It should produce randomness. And yet the winners are concentrated in a very small group of teams. And I kind of feel like that can't hold. And then I think if you apply this idea, that the rest of the world is getting better at soccer, at least since 1930. I think we can all agree that the rest of the world has improved at soccer. And then this World Cup is 48 teams. Almost everyone is going to get out of the group stages. All but 16 teams are gonna get out of the group stages. And then it's basically going to be the old World Cups, which were 32 teams, but straight knockout soccer. for 32 down to one. DG: So fun. RO: So I also, while I was kind of poking a little fun, trying to get people excited, I also do think like we are overdue for an outsider to win a World Cup. And then I think the structure of this World Cup makes it even more likely that there might be one. DG: I mean, I — your piece was really fun, and everyone should read it in ESPN, "13 stats that prove US men's national team will win the World Cup." It is kind of tongue in cheek, we should say. Like we could probably you could apply the way you did this to eliminate every other person in the United States and convince me that I'm gonna become president, which is kind of fun. RO: Yes. DG: But in all seriousness, like the US does have a good offensive attack. I mean, if their defense does hold up, this team does feel built to make things at least interesting. Is that fair? RO: Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's a way to look at the opening game and kind of view it as, it was just Paraguay, right? Like this is the U.S. beating up on a bad team. But two things. The U.S. hasn't won a World Cup game by three goals since the first World Cup, the inaugural World Cup in 1930. And then the other thing is Paraguay, while not like an international power, they play in South America, which is the most grueling World Cup qualifying stretch there is because in Europe you get to play, you know, no offense to Liechtenstein and San Marino, but those countries are, you know, not as good as the worst teams in South America. And Paraguay gave up 10 goals in 18 World Cup qualifying games. 10! And they just gave up four to the U.S. in one game. That's 40%. So, like I think— and if you look at the way the U.S. played, they sort of were very aggressive off the ball, which you don't necessarily see national teams doing because these teams only get to practice and play together so often. So they kind of usually are more conservative with how they position their players, also conservative with how they defend. But the U.S. defended really high up the field in a way that we don't see with national teams. And they also went up early. And for anyone who watched, say, the Netherlands-Japan game. Once the Netherlands was up 2-1 on Japan, they subbed off all their attackers, went into a shell, and then inevitably, as always happens, they gave up a second goal and tied the game. The U.S. went up early and then just kept pummeling Paraguay, which is also a pretty good signal of team strength, I would say. So yeah, like for all the reasons I just described about the randomness of the tournament and how good the U.S. looked in that game, like I feel like— are they gonna win the World Cup? I'm not gonna, you know, although I wrote that article, I don't know if I would go that far. But I think fans like you should dream about the U.S. making a run, but also they could draw a really hard opponent in the round of 32, and play great for the entire World Cup, and get eliminated in the round of 32. So that's just kind of how the World Cup goes. DG: That's part of the beauty of it. For for people who are just getting into this World Cup and looking at the U.S. men's national team, you know, we of course know that the the U.S. women's national team has found much better success in the World Cup, on the world stage. how would you describe what has held the men's national team back and why they've been, you know, so pressed over all these many generations to to be that serious a contender? RO: Yeah, I think there's a combination of factors. I would say the biggest one is right the cultural factor. Like soccer, just never got the foothold in the U.S. that it has in the rest of the world. It kind of did in the 30s. We had the American Soccer League, where, like all these big factories had soccer teams like Bethlehem Steel, and they would pay their players to work in the factory, and then they would also just as a way to basically pay them to be on the team. And like players from other European countries were like moving to the U.S. to play for these teams. And that sort of is what fueled the U.S. being fantastic in 1930 at the World Cup. And then immigration rules got stricter, the Great Depression happened, factories kind of went by the wayside, and soccer just kind of fell off the face of the earth in the U.S., essentially, because football had taken over in colleges, baseball was sort of the sport that was professionalizing everything. And then it was just in the wilderness, basically, until 1994, when FIFA awards the U.S. the World Cup. We are required by FIFA to form a national soccer league, like a real one that sort of abides by the various FIFA guidelines. You know, MLS didn't start until 1996, while the English Premier League, these teams were playing in the, you know, early 1900s. So I think that's the main factor, right? We just have all these other sports that people in the U.S. play instead of soccer. But at the same time, like even if a smaller portion of the U.S. population is playing soccer, that's still like a lot of people, right? And Belgium is doing well. Portugal is one of the favorites to win the World Cup. So you would think like we should be better with the amount of people that we have playing soccer. And I think the reasons why we're not, I think the main thing I think is that soccer is really expensive in the U.S. While it's like a sport of the people, it's not expensive in the rest of the world. Pretty much across the rest of the world, professional club teams run the sort of youth teams in the various cities or towns that players come from. And it's mostly free to play for those teams because it's kind of viewed as a civic duty, but also viewed as, well, if this player becomes really good, Liverpool could give us $80 million for this guy. So there is like a financial investment. But soccer in the U.S.— it's more expensive to play than football or baseball, and certainly more expensive than basketball. So that just kind of like siphons off a big part of the population and prevents them from deciding to ever play soccer. And then also the same things that like developed players in other sports in the U.S. don't necessarily apply in soccer. So I think all those things come together and you get where we currently are. DG: So interesting. No, I mean all of those factors at play. I want to ask you about one incredible moment of symbolism as this World Cup has gotten started. Iran had its match in Los Angeles against New Zealand. I mean, seeing the Iranian flag spread, you know, across the stadium at a moment when the host country is at war with Iran, what does that say about the World Cup and this whole event? \[MUSIC\] RO: It's a hard question to answer just because it's like I do think the World Cup, like for all of the— I think especially with this World Cup, with it being in the U.S., with everything going on in this country, outside of this country, there was a tendency to kind of be like very have a very sort of doomer mindset toward it. Being like, this is gonna be the World Cup where like everything kind of falls apart. But the World Cup ha has happened in a lot of other, let's call them authoritarian countries, in the past, and people love this sport so much. People care so much about watching their teams that it still manages to produce like plenty of these like beautiful and powerful moments of solidarity, joy, whatever you want to say. despite the backdrop of the country that's taking place within. That said, sure enough, like the Iranian players were like another beautiful moment. They were like standing on the dais after the game. FIFA was trying to force them off of the dais, and they just kept taking questions from reporters so they could sort of voice what their experiences, being like, I think Mehdi Taremi said everything is essentially a disaster for them. Which I think he more meant like the way they have to sort of try to perform in this tournament, where they flew in the day of the game, then they were whisked away like an hour after the game to go back to Mexico. So, you know, I think like that also is kind of like beautiful in a way too, that like the players are like competing in this tournament, but also like making sure that their voices get heard and making sure it's not just like we saw these flags, this is beautiful. There also is a lot of sort of collateral damage to what's happening with the players. DG: Yeah, I'm so glad you raised that. Well, before I let you go, we're gonna listen to an interview that I did with Jozy Altidore, one of the best players, best scorers in U.S. men's national team history, next on Sports in America. I wanna thank you, Ryan O'Hanlon. He's a staff writer for ESPN. You can find his Substack. It's called No Grass in the Clouds. He also is a author of "Net Gains, Inside the Beautiful Games, Analytics Revolution." Check it all out. Ryan, enjoy the tournament. And thank you so much for hanging with us. RO: Thanks for having me. \[MIDROLL\] DG: The last time the United States hosted the World Cup was more than 30 years ago, back in 1994. Now that the games are underway in the United States, we wanted to bring in one of the best our country has ever seen on the pitch, Jozy Altidore. \[MUSIC\] DG: He's a super-decorated American forward who's played in club teams in the US and in Europe. He has scored 195 goals in more than 550 professional appearances. Forty-two of those goals were with the U.S. men's national team, which makes him the third-highest scorer ever in team history.  ANNOUNCER: Towards the top of the box, little Altidore's wide open, and what a goal! Jozy Altidore pounding his fist in the air here!  DG: Jozy retired in 2023, but has stayed in the sports orbit. He's helping expand the United Soccer League to Oklahoma City. And he even became a part-owner of the Buffalo Bills in 2024. That's right, the Buffalo Bills in the NFL. So he's involved in both kinds of football. If you're following the World Cup this year, you should expect to hear his voice. He'll be broadcasting from the tournament with Telemundo. So, let's get to know Jozy a little better through one of his biggest moments on the field when he made history for the U.S. men's national team back in 2009. If you follow soccer with any regularity, I mean, honestly, even if you don't, you probably know that the U.S. men's national team, how do I put this? They're not exactly known for dominating on the pitch. They don't win a lot, okay? I wanna go back to, you know, it's not just one of the biggest moments in your career, I think, in U.S. men's soccer history, and that was the '09 Confederations Cup, and this tournament is held before the World Cup, and it's champions from each continent, and the U.S. is playing Spain, and no one gave you guys a chance. (Laughs) Spain had won 35 games in a row, and they were obviously going to win, but that was the view from the outside. I mean, what were you and the team thinking going into that match?  JOZY ALTIDORE: Well, that was not the view from the inside. I can tell you that much. \[MUSIC\] JA: I remember just the team being really excited and really quietly confident, you know, that generation of players was a really good one, really veteran-oriented, and just workman-like, you know? There were no days off, there were no excuses, you know, guys made sure that the environment around the team was a really professional and positive one. So, just in terms of that game, I remember the guys being really loose, really excited. In one of those moments where you kind of feel like we're playing with house money, you know, we're in the semifinal, we weren't supposed to be here. So why not? Why not go for it? I remember that being very much the mentality of the group.  DG: This is the Confederations Cup, which was this tournament that FIFA used to host the year before the World Cup. It was sort of like a dress rehearsal for the big event the following year. It helped host countries get ready and helped teams set expectations. So it's June of 2009, the U.S. men's national team just beat Egypt and got themselves out of the group stage. Now they're up against Spain, and Spain is huge at this point. They're the number one team in the world. Spain was winning so much in 2009 that people started calling this squad the Golden Generation. Meanwhile, for the U.S., there are the usual low expectations. Did you think something was on the line for the U.S. men's national team in that match? Like knowing like, okay, here's our chance. Here's a match against the best in the world at this moment.  JA: I mean, I think it's like anything in sports. I think, you know, as a player, there are certain moments, big moments, that you don't get a lot of them, right? So you can't let too many of them pass you by. But if you can take it and not let it pass you by, you kind of know what a big opportunity it is in the time, but also what it can do for you going forward, right? For each and every one of us, for our team, for elevating the sport in our country. And so, when those moments come around, I mean, it's easy to say you like to take them, right? Cause we all like to do that. But I think you recognize just how big the opportunity is individually and as a team, and you try your best to kind of make your imprint, whether that's winning the game or playing a very good game. And I think collectively, we understood that moment very well.  DG: And was that kind of the mentality in the moments, in the minute before your, that big first, that first goal of yours?  JA: Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at the tournament too, it's a quality tournament, right, where every game you're kind of tested. So I think when you play a tournament like that, by the time you arrive to the semifinal, I don't think you need to kind of like get warmed up or let the game come to you. You know, when you're playing Brazil, I think it was Italy, Egypt, you know, teams at the time, and still some very, really, really strong teams. And so I think when we got to the semi-final, we were just ready to play. Ready to play, sharp, and ready to make an impact. And I don't think you need, you know, there are certain games where you don't need to get up for, right? You're playing Spain. I think at the time they were unbeaten in like 34, 35 games, something crazy. So the concentration level was high. The motivation level was high. And we were just trying to play the best game we could play. And I think you saw that in the first minutes of the game. It was really aggressive. Everybody was really locked in. You look around at every guy, and then you just know, right? Everybody's on the tip of their toes, balls of their feet. Heads on a swivel, everybody from guy one to 22 was really locked in and ready to go.  DG: Jozy Altidore is setting the world's expectations off to the side. He's a forward for the U.S., and he has played for club teams in the U.S, England, and even in Spain before. He thinks he knows how to take this team down. Plus, low expectations mean that Jozy's kind of got nothing to lose. How does playing with house money translate onto the pitch? Like, what are you? Are you taking more risks? Are you like just trying to say, like, this doesn't matter, to just go in with an attitude of we don't care what happens, let's just have fun? How does that translate into the experience?  JA: When you play a level of tournament that high, and when you succeed, right, you get to a game like Spain. And when I say playing with house money, you're taking kind of the same approach you took in the other games, of when you're playing a team of high quality, of respect the opponent, when we're ready, we make sure we know our assignments, we're intensive, we're concentrated. And I think that just gets stepped up even tenfold when you get a semi-final like that. And then obviously, when you are in that position where nobody thought you'd be in, concentration level goes up even higher, right? That hunger to make an impression, to get a result, goes up even higher. So I think you're playing with the risk where you have nothing to lose. And from that standpoint, any team or any player, and when they play with nothing to loose is a difficult opponent because they're gonna keep coming at you, right? And they're not afraid of failure in that moment. So I think that helped us in a game like that.  \[MUSIC\] DG: The game gets off to a slow start. About a third of the way through, neither team has scored yet. The U.S. takes the ball back from Spain, and Landon Donovan launches it down the field.  ANNOUNCER: And he's switched with Donovan now.  DG: Where it ends up with U.S. forward and midfielder Clint Dempsey.  JA: We had some nice buildup play. We had a few passes we put together, a nice little passage of play. And I think Clint gets the ball, and I see some space, and I go to attack it. And I think he plays the ball, but it gets deflected. And so it kind of bounces up.  DG: Clint sends the ball to Jozy.  ANNOUNCER: Towards Altidore.  DG: And it's far from a perfect shot. It lands sort of behind him, forcing him to spin around to get it. Meanwhile, his defender is all over him.  JA: And so instead of running onto him to space, I kind of have to hold off the defender a bit. And I felt the defender being really aggressive to try to win the ball. And I just use my strength kind of, and not always, I'm not going to say I'm like this big, strong guy, but I think if you look at the play, it's to my advantage, right? He's trying to really get over my back and try to get a nick off the ball, and I'm so close to the area that if he fouls me, it's a free kick. And if I'm able to kind of get a yard, I know I can get a shot off. So I think it was just a perfect storm.  DG: What happens next is why I imagine they call soccer the beautiful game. Jozy spins, keeping his defender at his back, and uses him to launch the ball forward toward the net.  ANNOUNCER: He's turned his man there, and he's got a shot, and it's a goal! And it's in! How about this! How about this! JA: I play, roll it off of him, and I give the goalie the eyes a bit, look that way, and kind of kick it this way, and got him to bite just a little bit, and it was enough. You know, an amazing moment is created.  DG: Tell me the first thoughts that you remember when that ball's in the net. What we see on TV is you just running to the corner, ripping your shirt off, but what's the first thing that you remember after you knew you scored?  JA: I was just so happy because, you know, before these matchups, you know, in any sport, semi-final, whether it's basketball, hockey, there's a lot of pressure, a lot to talk before the match. So when you see the ball go in, especially early on, it's kind of like a pressure release, like, you know, like it's the first big moment of the game, and it goes in our favor. And so, I just remember feeling that, really happy, cause I knew my family and all my friends were watching back at home, and yeah, just really excited to score against my teammates. You know, a lot of those guys mentored me. A lot of those guys, you know, just looked after me. I was, as I was making my way through the ranks. So it was just a cool moment to share with a lot of people that they gave me a lot of tools at that point in my career. So It was, yeah, it was pressure-relieving. It was euphoric. And I was trying to make sure I did my dance because me and my buddy, Charlie Davies, we had this celebration dance that we talked about doing. He reminded me to do it. So at the end of the clip, you see me do like, it's called the "Stanky Legg." That was a thing back in the day. (Laughs) So yeah, that was the moment.  DG: Can you describe the dance to me, just so people listening will get a visual?  JA: It was the hottest dance in the '09s. Okay? "Stanky Legg." \[GS BOYZ SINGING "STANKY LEG"\]  JA: You gotta give it like a little spaghetti shake, spaghetti string shake on your leg. Yeah, and you gotta have a little motion with it though, but you know, I killed it at that time, I don't know if I could do it now, but at the time  DG: (Laughs) And he had to remind you to do it, like he was worried you were gonna forget because you were so caught up in... JA: Yeah, he reminded me as I was taking my shirt off. I think at that time they changed the rule where you take your shirt off and get a yellow card. So I got the yellow card, and I remember saying to the referee like, thank you, best yellow card ever.  \[CROWD CHEERING\] ANNOUNCER: Altidore showed great body strength. I think he's going to receive a yellow card here as well, Jonathan, for taking his shirt off.  JA: And then my buddy comes up to me, and he was like, "The dance," "the dance." And then we just do it real quick in that moment. That was funny. We still joke about it till today.  DG: The game only got better for the U.S. team from there. Later in the match, Jozy's teammate, Clint Dempsey, scored again, and it ended in a 2-0 victory for the United States. No one expected this team to knock Spain out and advance to the next round, but they did. \[MUSIC\] DG: How would you describe the meaning of that victory? What did winning that match against Spain mean for the program, for soccer in the U.S., for all of it?  JA: I think when you look at every generation that we've had of the U.S. team from '94, even before that, way before that. But I just started following right, '94 till now. You look at each four to eight years, and I think there's a moment where you say, okay, we're really growing. We're able to beat this type of team in this type of competition. It was like a flag-bearer moment for us. We stuck our flag kind of in the ground and said, here we are. You know, we're able to beat one of the best teams in history. And so I think it was a huge moment for our program to keep progressing and keep taking steps in the right direction. Just speaking to 2009, it was a huge moment, a huge indication kind of of where the sport in our country is going and what better statement than to beat, you know, arguably one of the best teams in history in a game where, you know, both teams are going forward in a semifinal. So in a major competition. So it was, it was a big moment for sure.  DG: A big moment that Jozy and his teammates probably hoped would shape the future of U.S. Soccer and launch the men's national team into an era of success. But that is not what happened. Say more about 2009. What were you thinking in your mind about how long it would take to get the program to a really solid place? We look at nine years later, and the team doesn't even make the World Cup, which was devastating. Like what, in the long sort of history and building up soccer in the United States, like what did 2009 mean in your mind in terms of what you were trying to accomplish and what marker you were trying to lay down?  JA: It meant a lot because for a long time, I don't know if I can speak for everybody, but when you play in and around that time, you're playing for the U.S. National Team, it's kind of where it kind of feels like nobody's watching unless you're in games like that, right? So there's a lot of games going on that may be important, but it was in a moment really before social media had a big boom, at least like Instagram and the rest of it. So, it was one of those where we just felt like, you know, you talked about these defining moments you have in your career. It was just one of those we knew we had to make happen. You know, because when you look at the guys before us, right, so 2001, 2002, at least for me, I always said, you know, I wanna have a moment like that. You know a big moment where, whether it be you know, Landon Donovan in the World Cup, or, you're scoring against Mexico and beating them 2-0. Like these are defining moments, right? Every generation, I felt like had that. And I think that's what it was for us, 2009, we had prime Landon Donovan, prime Clint Dempsey, and we were just trying to make our mark. And I thank everybody knew that this was it. This was the moment to do it. And like I said, I think it was really significant if you look at what we did and how it played, and continue to develop the game in our country, develop young kids, make young kids dream. Because I think when you watch those moments, and you're at home. You're like, I want to do that, you know? And I think that's part of leaving a legacy and helping build something long-term. You need these types of moments.  DG: Yeah, I've heard you talk about imagining young kids watching replays of that goal of yours in that 2009 match. Say more about that. What are you imagining in your mind, and what do you hope it's doing for kids?  JA: Well, I know for me, like I said, when I was watching, I watched the 2002 World Cup in Haiti. I was on a family vacation in Haiti, but I just remember watching that saying, I want that to be me, I wanna do that. I wanna score a big goal on a big stage representing my country, and that was it. It was pretty simple. When I think of the kids now today watching, I think they're thinking, I wanna win Champions League, like Christian did. I wanna play for Barcelona, like Sergio. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about. It's important.  DG: Jozy, can you talk about what it feels like to represent the U.S. on that stage? Like the pride, I don't know if there's patriotism, like what is that feeling when you're on a U.S. men's national team?  JA: I'll give you an example. So, when we talk about the growth of the game, my dream as a kid when I was growing up watching the U.S. Team was the World Cup. I wanted to play in the World Cup. That was my creme de la creme. We've seen how the game has developed now, right? Now, we talked about kids' dreams is to win the Champions League. It's to play for Barcelona and these type of things. So when I look at the World Cup, and I would still say it holds the same weight. I mean, it's a country where you and your brothers, you represent the very best, and you're going against some of the best in the world. And it's just the top of the game. So, you know, walking out there to play England, the first game I remember so much emotion because I was so proud. My family's in the stands watching me in a moment that I talked about trying to get to for my entire life. And it's surreal, you walking out, they're hearing the anthem full stadium, looking down the line of your guys, and just seeing everybody ready. Some guys in tears, some guys happy. It's a critical moment because you have to understand that this isn't it. Yeah, you got there and now, you know, what's next. So you don't see that at the time, but it's just such a surreal moment. Like I said, see your family, know there's billions watching around the world. It's, yeah, it's a feeling that's second to none.  DG: This is Sports in America, and we'll be right back with more from U.S. soccer star, Jozy Altidore. \[MIDROLL\] DG: Welcome back to Sports in America, and here is more from our conversation with Jozy Altidore, who played for the U.S. men's national soccer team. I want to spend a few minutes on your life and career. Both your parents immigrated to the US from Haiti. And I wonder just what role did soccer play in your life growing up and in your relationship with your parents, and sort of what the future they saw for you? JA: Yeah. So for me, soccer was gospel, man. Like for my parents, at least. My dad loved soccer, obviously, living in Haiti. And my mom, that was the number one sport. And my dad just, he wanted me to play so bad. We always played at home, took me to the park to play. And so he was kind of like my first coach. And so for me, I knew in the back of my mind, this is what my dad wanted me to do. And I actually played quite a bit of basketball as well. And I got to the point where I kind of had to choose. I got invited to some pretty good basketball programs. And then I got invited to the U.S. National Team Residency Program in Bradenton. So I kind of had to make the choice there. But soccer was incredibly important. It helped a lot for me in terms of, you know, being part of a team, what goes into that, looking at things from an aspect that were kind of bigger than yourself. And I definitely think it definitely helped mold me in the best ways as a person, as a father, as a husband. You know, understanding your role in the team. You know, a family's no different, a relationship's no different. And I think when you're in that at a young age and you're able to be a good team member, when you are able to approach a relationship or a family the same way, you know I approach my relationship with, you know how can I be the best husband or the best father or how can contribute to my son's day or my wife's busy schedule and have a good effect on it. So I definitely think soccer or just playing a role in the team from a young age definitely plays a role.  DG: Full disclosure here, when I talked to Jozy, it was four years ago, just before the 2022 World Cup got started in Qatar. But we were both already thinking ahead about what it might look like in 2026 when the tournament would come to the United States. Looking at 2026, and the U.S. is hosting most of the matches, they're hosting the final. I mean, how important would that be for the U.S. to, you know, to get really far, even win the cup that year? Like, what would that moment mean in sort of the long journey of U.S. Soccer?  JA: You see, that's different. You know, for me, when I think about that, I think you have to try to position the team, the program, to really have a strong performance, right? We're hosting, and when we talk about all the things that we've talked about so far on this call, I think it's really important that, if we want kids to dream, you want to inspire a generation, there's no better way to do it than on home soil with perhaps some of our most talented players on display. So I think that's gotta be some of where the focus is for the federation is looking at that tournament and saying, you know, we want to make sure that you know we put in a good tournament, so what finish that is? I don't know, you know I'm not so sure, but I mean I'm of the opinion that how we play matters in that tournament, you know. How we inspire people matters. Maybe we don't win the whole thing in 2026, but we play in a way where I think collectively people say you know, U.S. soccer for real. From now going forward, the game in this country is a serious thing. So that's what I hope we get out of 2026, and whether that's winning, going to the semi-final, you know, we'll see.  \[MUSIC\] DG: You know, the world is so different now compared to, you know, when you were in those matches and on that stage, I just, you know, our politics at home are incredibly divisive. I think the U.S. is seen in a different light on the world stage compared to years past. Like it's not necessarily the beacon of freedom and democracy that the U.S. was seen as for so long. I just— does that, do you think that changes the experience in some way for these guys today?  JA: I mean yes and no, I think politics are at the forefront in a way maybe that they haven't been in the past, but I think one good thing about U.S. national teams, and I was a part of this one for a brief time, 2019, is we have the collective understanding that, you know, as a soccer team, we have a lot to prove. And as a soccer team, we want to make sure that we're respected. And as a soccer team, we want to make sure that we continue to send the message that our country's progressing. So with all the politics and all those things going on, I think because of our youth in the world game, like on the world stage, compared to some of these countries, that's always the driving force. And so, not to say what's happening around the world isn't important, but just in terms of how people view us and our politics and what's happening in our government, I don't think that will take center stage for these guys. I think the U.S. National teams, the best of them and the worst of them, have always been about giving your best for the guy next to you. And understanding that we wanna change how people view us as a sovereign nation. So I think that'll be the same thought process with these guys and that will be the same motivations regardless kind of how better or for worse people view our politics. Cause I don't think we're well-liked politically throughout the world now or before. So I don't think that part changes.  DG: But what you say is really important is how are we seen? It's not how are seen as a nation, it's how are we seen as a soccer nation. I mean, that's what's on the minds of these guys as they go.  JA: Yeah, like I said, in most national teams I've played with, that was always the thought, you know, because you go into games, you read things, and people always say, "Ah, U.S. Team, this, that," but I think you have players that feel that, you know listen, this is our moment to kind of change that narrative, like we talked about, and this is a group of guys that had been in a place that no other team has had in the past, playing at some of the biggest clubs in the world, getting that experience. And so, like, I said, I think that'll be the mindset of these guys. And I think they'll be really, really up for it. And I'm just really excited to see how they get on and emotionally how they're able to handle everything.  DG: I've read something that you said some years ago. You said, "It's an honor to represent the U.S. playing soccer, a country that has given you so much." Tell me more about that. What has the United States given to you and your family? JA: Yeah, I mean, like, let's be honest, if my parents weren't in the U.S., if the U.S. didn't open their doors to my parents, that they were 23 and 24 respectively, you know, I probably would have been in Haiti, you know? And so I have a lot to be grateful for. And I'm not saying being in Haiti is a bad thing, but you know, having the opportunity to now, you know, my parents were able to come to the U.S. They were given an opportunity to make a life for themselves, have kids, and I think that's changed my trajectory. So I think I'm just grateful for that. I'm grateful for the process and role It's played in my parents success and then me being able to be born in New Jersey and just have the opportunity to learn the game here, and play represent the national team, travel the world, help my parents retire You know, buy my family members houses and stuff like that like I'm just forever grateful for this sport for the country for helping my parents because in turn it helped me and it's changed our kind of trajectory for generations to come, for sure.  DG: It's a beautiful immigrant story. JA: Yeah, it's the truth. DG: In terms of where the program is today, U.S. men's soccer, I had heard you recently asked about, like, are we at a point where it is diverse enough, where there are opportunities for young Black men in the U.S. to play, to grow, to get leadership roles, to coach. And you said that the Federation, the larger climate, is still an old boys' club. Can you expand on that a little bit? What do you think the problems are?  JA: You know, in good ways and bad ways, and when I say an old boys club, I mean, when you look at, for example, MLS and the original owners and the original teams, I think a lot of those guys were really important in the growth of soccer in this country, right? Starting the league, investing in the league, taking the losses that come with that. I think, you know, those individuals were fundamental. And when you look at the league today, I think the same individuals are still very influential in terms of the growth of our league still and in kind of the landscape of soccer in our country. That's what I meant. I think the founding fathers, so to speak, are still playing major roles in kind of, the direction we go now. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. I think, though, as you continue to develop and continue to kind of transcend, we have to be open to new ideas, right? To new, whether it be ownership. Whether it be coaching, players, I just think you have to be sensitive to the fact that as we change as a country, as a national team, you know, the background has to change with it. And it's a challenge, of course, but I think when you look at the steps the Federation has taken, MLS, the steps they have taken in the past, you know, I would say five to 10 years, especially more in the immediate, I think it points the finger at where they're trying to go with respect to the people that have helped get it to this point, but understanding that you have to be open in an ever-changing world to new ideas, to new outlooks, with at the same time keeping your identity, but obviously being able to adapt. And so that's the biggest thing for me is, can we adapt? Can we continue to push the envelope and adapt and invite new ideas, not taking away with who we are, but maybe helping us elevate and get to where we wanna go?  DG: You know, I've always been curious, soccer in the U.S. is unique because it's the only or one of the only sports where women have been more well-known for their success. The U.S. Women's National Team has four World Cup Championships. Does that dynamic affect the U S men's team's mindset in some way? Is there jealousy? Do they use that as sort of motivation and being like this is what's possible for you know, for success on the world stage in U.S. soccer, like how does, or do they not think about that at all?  JA: From my time, when I was with the national team, it wasn't something we thought about at all. Were we happy for the women's team? Absolutely. I remember watching the World Cup in Canada, the final. I think we were at a Gold Cup or something like that. And I remember watching and cheering them on. Like, I mean, I would say if anything, it fuels you to want to share those moments, and with your teammates, and want to be on a podium celebrating a World Cup final. I don't think it's any jealousy at all; everybody would tell you that they're happy for the women's team. their continued success, their dominance over the past, you know, 15, 20 years in the women's game. I think it's excellent to see, and I think it's quite the contrary. I think everybody's rooting for them constantly when they play. The interactions I've had, every time with the women's team, have been great. And so, yeah, I don't think there's any of that. I think there is no bad blood. I think we want them to do as good as possible. And I think the feeling is mutual when they watch us perform.  DG: So when Jozy and I spoke, he was just starting to explore how he could stay involved with soccer even after he retired from playing the sport. He was playing for a club team in Mexico and thinking about the idea of owning his own team at the time. It's pretty cool to hear him talk about this four years down the road now that we know he's a part owner of the Buffalo Bills and helping expand U.S. Soccer in Oklahoma City. You've been spending a lot of this year playing for a pro team in Mexico. What are you hoping to accomplish at this stage of your career? What are you looking for?  JA: Well, for me, I have big dreams and aspirations of getting into ownership. And so, you know, what I looked at was, you know, I've loved the national team. It's been a big part of me. So when I realized that that wasn't going to be obviously a play anymore for me in terms of just transitioning new guys in, old guys out, you have to find things to play for. And part of that for me was obviously the love of the game, but I wanted to try to see how I could position myself to learn, and kind of, you know, LIGA MX, I think, is a league where MLS and League MX have looked for different ways throughout the last few years of trying to collaborate, trying to help each other continue to grow.  DG: This is the league in Mexico, and MLS in the U.S. have been like trying to work together?  JA: Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought it'd be a really good opportunity to kind of get my foot in the door in a League MX team. You know, a league that MLS tries to take some good from, right? And LIGA MX tries to get some good for MLS. So, I just wanted to get to a place where I can learn, kind of understand what it's like to be in this league, what things they do well, what things they can improve on, and comparing it to MLS, and hopefully it can help me down my path of hopefully eventually one day being in ownership. And I think it definitely did that. I learned quite a bit there on and off the field, and I made a whole bunch of new friends and allies and teammates. And so I think that was a success for me, and I learned a lot being out there.  DG: So you're learning as much now or trying to about the business side as you are about the sport itself because you wanna be in ownership down the road?  \[MUSIC\] JA: Yes, yes, I think I love the game. Do I love it enough to coach? I'm not so sure, but do I love it enough to have a handle on the grassroots, on, you know, affecting hopefully one day kids representing our country in a World Cup, and, you know, help change and continue to fund the landscape of our identity as a soccer nation. That for me is incredible. It's something that I would love to be a part of.  DG: What's the adjustment been like in Mexico?  JA: Not as hard as you'd think, the food's amazing. I love the food, you know, tacos galore, which is great. The people are really nice. Puebla was a great city to live in. I had a great time, I was really pleasantly surprised, I didn't think it'd go that well in terms of how they cared for myself and my wife, how they took us in. So that part was great, we really loved it.  DG: As you look down the road and you're interested in, you know, owning a franchise, like in your post-soccer life, if you and I get back together again in five, 10 years, like what moment do you hope we'll be talking about then?  JA: I would call myself an entrepreneur quite a bit. I'm very focused on that as well. So not if but when we talk in five to 10 years, I think we'll be talking about definitely some ownership of mine in an MLS club or maybe a club abroad and hopefully additions to the family and I hope a couple of other businesses that you'll start to see in the next couple years pop up and some more good exits in those companies and and hopefully leaving a legacy. I hope everything that I'm doing in a different way is inspiring the generation to say hey you know not only did he do it on the field, but he can kind of do it off the field as well. So I hope to inspire that too and hope to see you guys taking in what I've done, taking it to a new level, right, because that's what you want to see, so hopefully there's a little bit of that  DG: Jozy, real honor talking to you, and thank you so much for being part of the show. We really appreciate it. JA: No problem, man. The honor is all mine. Thanks for having me. \[THEME MUSIC\] DG: Next time on Sports in America.  DOMINIQUE DAWES: I started receiving my first fan mail letters at 11 years old. I started recognizing that it wasn't just about me. It wasn't just about my individual goals, but I had the ability to impact someone else's life.  DG: In the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta, Dominique Dawes became the first Black woman ever to win an individual medal in gymnastics. But that title came at a cost.  DD: The coaches maybe were made to believe that to make a champion, you have to tear someone down, and you have to take into consideration these are young girls. These are six, seven, eight year old girls that get involved in the sport of gymnastics, and the grooming begins then.  DG: How Dominique Dawes survived the pressure and turned her pain into purpose.  DD: Now I know, like this is the legacy and the impact that we're going to make not just on hundreds or thousands but on generations, and that's what's so fulfilling, but again I remind myself it came from a place of pain.  DG: That's next time on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find sports in America on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, the iHeart radio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next time for Sports in America.