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IFH 695: Writing Screenplays that Actually Sell with Lucy V. Hay · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ih podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Film Houstle Podcast, Episode number six ninety five. The Road to Hell is
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paved with adverbs. Stephen King broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's
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the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive
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as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your
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host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film
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Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
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sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into a
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profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money
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with their films, from predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators
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who prey upon them. The odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker. The
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old distribution model of making money with your film is broken and there needs to
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be a change. The future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker, or
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The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If
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you want to order it, just head over to www dot film bizbook dot
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com. That's film bizbook dot com. Now today on the show, we
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have Lucy Vhy. She is a author, a script consultant and a screenwriter.
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She's written books on the screen in writing craft like writing and selling drama
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screenplays, writing and selling thriller screenplays, and writing diverse characters for fiction,
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TV or film. She's also one of the UK's best known script consultants and
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she does amazing work through her blog and website bang ToWrite dot com. And
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I want to invite her on the show to talk, talk shop and see
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what her perspective was on the craft and how she helps her clients get those
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stories TowIt. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with
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Lucy Vhy. I'd like to welcome to the show. Lucy, Hey,
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thank you so much for jumping on. Well, thanks for having me.
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It's nice to be here. I know it's taking us a minute to get
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to this point. Yes, yeah, I think it was six months.
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I think I think schedules. I know our schedules are big, hectic,
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but I'm so glad we've kindly be able to make it work. I've been
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wanting to get you on the show to pick your brain a little bit about
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about the business. But before we jump in, how did you even get
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started in the film business? Oh my god, it's a it's a really
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kind of long and involved story. A short version then, Okay. The
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short version is I did a degree in screenwriting for film and television back in
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the day. I was here in the UK doing that course in two thousands.
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I graduated two thousand and three. I was a single mother back in
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those days, and I didn't have any childcare, and I really really wanted
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to be involved in screenwriting in some way. I wasn't really sure how.
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I just knew that I wanted to be part of the industry, and I
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really loved the development of stories and just really kind of being involved in whichever
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way I could. Basically, and during the time that I was on the
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degree, I had to do some work experience to pass the course, and
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during that time I managed to get some work experience reading screenplays for a literary
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agent and various other places as well, schemes and a lottery funding initiative and
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various things like that. So as when I came out of university, I
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thought, well, you know, maybe there is room for someone who can
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actually read people's screenplays and actually consult on screenplays to actually help people get better
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and have better opportunities and better ways of kind of breaking in Because when I
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was reading in the spec pile for agents and for producers and for various schemes
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and competitions, one thing I noticed was that there were a lot of first
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drafts or really obvious mistakes, and people weren't really doing peer reviews so much.
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Then it was all before social media, it was all before blogs and
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things like that. So I thought, well, you know, maybe there's
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a room for somebody like me who could be some sort of advisor, and
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then I can be involved in in screenwriting and with screenwriters, and the it
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was just it took off really quickly, and I thought I would be dealing
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predominantly with new writers, writers who were wanting to break in, and whilst
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that was true, I very quickly started getting clients who are much higher up
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the ladder, and I was reading for people who were working in television,
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is working in movies, and before I knew I was even even had some
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clients who were, you know, pretty famous. I was like, wow,
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So I figured I must be doing something all right. And I think
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one of the key elements for that, for a kind of making the splash
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that I did, was probably the blog. I was one of the first
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people to kind of get into screenwriting as a blogger. Although there were lots
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of screenwriting blogs from screenwriter's point of view, there weren't so many about the
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actual craft of screenwriting in those days, especially in the UK. There was
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things like John August blog and around the same time go into the Story Started,
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and various other website a wordplayer ones like that, but they were all
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very very American and I saw that there was this kind of gap in the
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market, if you like, for a UK screenwriting advice specifically as like a
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teaching blog. So yeah, I dived in with both feet, and so
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like ten fifteen years later, here we go. Now, what are some
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of the biggest mistakes you see in first time filmmaker first time screenwriters? Oh?
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God, I think probably the first thing would be that they don't they
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have an idea, or they see a trailer in their head, or they
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see some like imagery their head, or maybe just a character or something like
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that, and they don't really know what the story is. They don't know
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what it's about. They don't know how plotting works. They're thinking probably really
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deeply thematically, but they're not necessarily thinking about the actual blow by blows of
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the plots, and so they get themselves all tied up in knots as to
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what the story is really about versus what's literally happening, and so they end
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up writing these crazy, crazy drafts where you know, you can read a
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whole like one hundred page twenty page screenplay and you still have no clue what's
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happened. It's just like an explosion. It's like a stream of consciousness all
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over and that's probably what everyone does, I think at some point. I
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know I did that. Literally everyone when they start out, whether they're writing
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a screenplay or a short story or a novel or whatever, they can't really
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get their thoughts in order. They know that there's bits and pieces that they
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want to want to say, and maybe they've got a really interesting voice or
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a really interesting idea or an interesting character, but they just can't make it
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all gel together. So I think that's probably the first kind of most obvious
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thing that happens. Another thing that happens is people's concepts and log lines just
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to really half bait. You know, they either don't make sense, or
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they're really derivative, or they're just boring, and you kind of go,
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what the hell is that? I don't know what that is? And that
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usually happens after they've come to the realization that oh, actually I can't just
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write the stream of consciousness. I've got to try and kind of organize it.
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But then they might overorganize it or organize it in such a way that
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it's still not recognizable or has come eurra the left field, or as to
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say, me to what's gone before. Other things that are really obvious is
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dialogue. There's far too much dialogue in the average spec screenplay. Even if
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it's good, they probably still don't need a third or even half of as
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much as what they've got, So they forget that it's a visual medium,
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you know, they fall in a lot of writers fall in love with dialogue,
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and some of them are really good at dialogue, but they forget the
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visuals. Alternatively, maybe they go too far the other way and it's really
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nice and visual, but again it's not coherent. You just you don't know
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what's really happening, and so you actually need more dialogue. But that doesn't
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happen very often. It's nearly always too much dialogue, I find, which
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I think is really interesting. Other things, structure is a big issue.
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People just don't know how structure works because they haven't done enough research into what
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structure means to them. Lots of people say, oh, wow, you
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only need a beginning, a middle, and end, and not necessarily in
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that order, which is what bang to Right believes as well. But you
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also do need to know how other people have structured things before you. We'll
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be right back, or a word from our sponsor and now back to the
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show. And that doesn't mean you have to use pictograms and worksheets and all
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that kind of stuff, but it does mean that if your movie is like
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Blade Runner, or is like Alien or is like whatever, you do need
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to know how those stories were structured and why they were so interesting to you
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and why you want to do something in that kind of vein, because if
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you don't know how they crafted their stuff, then how are you going to
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know how to craft your own stuff. So it doesn't really matter how you
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structure. You know, it doesn't matter if you use Save the Cat.
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It doesn't matter if you use three three acts or the mini movie method or
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the twenty two steps, use whatever you like. No one cares. But
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it needs some sort of structure. And very often things go wrong in structure,
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Like a very classic one would be starting too early, so you end
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up with a really lumpy kind of first act in particular, or it starts
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really well but then it has a basid dick in the middle and or you
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end up running on the spot or something like that, or resolutions, you
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know, the endings can be too rushed and it's like, oh, it's
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all over, What the hell just happened that kind of thing. So those
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are the kind of classic structural issues. And then finally, I would say
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the kind of the next obvious one will be characterization. People don't know what
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good characterization is and what is good characterization? Well, I mean, how
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long is a piece of string? But the two things that you need for
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good characterization is a role function what they're doing in the story, and then
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also their motivation, which is why they're doing things. You know, why
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what do they want in the story. Very often writers will understand motivation,
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but they won't necessarily understand role function. Role function of things like agonists and
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antagonists. They usually get those, okay, protagonists usually these days antagonists can
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be a little bit more up in the air, but usually most of them
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can get those two main ones. It's usually the secondary characters where things go
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wrong. The mentors, the jobs worths, the love interests, you know,
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all those kind of secondary supporting kind of characters will go wrong. They'll
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be boring, or they'll or they will have overthought them somehow. I mean,
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very often people get really angry about love interests always being female, for
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instance, but rather than actually changing the love interest to a male and making
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it a gay love story, for example, which might make it a bit
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more fresh. They will turn into like I read a lot of rom coms
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that have no romance in. It's like, why is there no romance in
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this rom com? Which sounds insane, And that's because it is because you
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need romance in a rom com. And if you don't like the fact that
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certain characters are love interests for instance, for instance, then don't write rom
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com. You know, write something else. But people try to reinvent the
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wheel a lot, and things get out of control very quickly. I mean,
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even an anti romcom has still got romance in. You know, it's
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just that the you know, an anti rom camp com is like a sad
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rom com. You know, it's funny, but it's tragic because they don't
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end up together. You know, something like five Hundred Days of Summer that
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was a great anti rom com. Something like Crazy Stupid Love was an anti
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rom com. You know. It's all about the relationships where things go wrong
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and maybe you won't recover from them, but you learn something and so it's
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still hopeful and it's still useful in it's not a tragedy tragedy where everything is
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ruined. So but they don't know the difference between a rom com with no
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romance and an anti rom com. And I think what I'm really talking to
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you about now is the fact that writers don't don't do enough research. They
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don't do enough research into the craft, and they don't do enough research into
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their arts. You know, if you want to write a rom com,
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you should be watching as many rom coms as possible. If you want to
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write a horror, you should be reading, reading, and watching as much
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horror as you can. You should be reading novels in that genre. You
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should be immersing yourself in your craft and also in the styles that you want
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to do. It's it's it sounds obvious, and that's because it is.
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But unfortunately a lot of writers don't really get that. They say, I
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haven't got enough time, I haven't got enough time, I haven't enough time
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to write, so I want to write every night. And it's like,
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well, you'd actually get your writing done a lot quicker if you immerse yourself
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in the situation. That's what pro writers do. They immerse themselves in a
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story and in that story world. So what you're telling me is that my
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idea to bring back dinosaurs and have them in a park is probably not going
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to fly nowadays. Well, I mean you could give it a try.
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I think someone might have got there before you. I mean certainly. I
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mean everybody everybody loves dinosaurs, you know, literally everyone I know. If
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you actually could find some sort of twist on that dinosaur storry, then by
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all means you know, I mean we're talking there about genre busting. You
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know, if you can bring us something that we've seen before that's pre sold,
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like dinosaurs, like vampires, like werewolves, like whatever, zombies.
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Yeah, if you can actually bring us something that we've never seen before and
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make somebody like me, a script reader or a script editor, go,
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god, why haven't I seen this before? Then they're going to pass it
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up the chain to their boss and say, you know, you'll never guess
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what I've seen, you know, a new take on the vampire myth.
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And then they're like, you're joking. It's like, no, I've really
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have here you go. And that's what gets everybody excited, is this notion
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of genre busting and bringing something that we've never seen before. I mean,
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we're talking about the same but different um and most writers do get that after
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a while, but they probably concentrate too much on the saminess and knocked up
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on the difference. Now, what, just as you've read so many scripts,
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what does scriptwriters look for in a screenplay? Specifically like these, the
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little the little giveaways. I'm like, oh, this is, this is
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I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass this and take it up,
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take it up the ladder. Uh huh. So a script reader, what
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does the scrict read? Yeah, um, we're looking we're looking for,
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um, something that looks like a script in the first instance. You know,
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you wouldn't believe some of the stuff. Stuff written a word, not
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so much. Oh no, thank you, text edit, text edit,
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no, no, no, no thanks. So so something that looks like
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a script in the first instance is always a plus. Um, we have
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this thing now, I mean, everybody knows about the first ten pages and
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how it's got to, you know, to do what it's you know,
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sets it, set up the story and introduce the characters and and make us
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under stands where it's going in the first ten pages, even if that's a
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lie. But in real terms, because there's so many submissions now, you
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need to really start on page one with a bang. You really really need
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to grab someone massively on page one. Now you need a great visual.
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You know, if you've got dialogue on page one, then it needs to
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be a really cool line, you know, it can't be something really boring.
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And the average first page of a screenplay is really dull. It's somebody
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literally walking into the frame and talking about something and doing, oh, this
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is a big introduction scene of some kind, and it's like, that's not
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interesting, you know, when we want to start with something really intriguing or
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shocking or devastating or interesting, something that makes me go. I mean,
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I read screenplays all day, for God's sakes, and yet I hardly ever
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sit up and go oh on page one because I'm used to things being you
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know, not necessarily grabbing me. But that very first image, that opening
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image got to really grab me. I mean, I read one yesterday that
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I was blown away by. It was awesome. It was the first thing,
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you know, the first thing I did after reading it was cool.
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Up. All my friends say or never guess what, I read a brilliant
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page one, and they'll be like, no, hey, because script readers
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don't read brilliant page once very often, So that's that's part of part of
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it. Another thing that we're looking for is confidence. You won't believe how
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kind of apologetic a lot of writers write. You know, you've got to
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really own the page. I suppose that's what people mean when they talk about
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voice, this notion of confidence and actually owning the page and actually saying,
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you know, this is my script. You know, we don't want all
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these vanilla screenplays that are really just really bland. We want something that's going
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to grab us. Again. We're talking about this notion of being really hooked,
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so not just imagery, but the way you write it as well,
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you know, a sense of confidence, a sense of voice. Another thing
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that we want as well is an intriguing character of some kind, something that
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we haven't seen before. Because although sometimes storylines can feel a bit like they're
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you know, like we've seen them before, I'm so bored of seeing the
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same characters over and over again. And there'll be the same characters in different
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genres and different styles. You know, people have got to think a bit
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more outside the box. And I'm pleased to say we're actually seeing a lot
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more diversity now. You know, there was a point where it was all
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male leads that were all white all the time. And of course there are
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some great films and TV shows with with white male leads. It would be
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absurd to say that there aren't. There are some really really good ones.
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But does it have to be that guy every time? Every time? You
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know, what more can you bring to this character, there's a situation,
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we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
20:07
the show. By making it a woman, by making it a person with
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a disability, by making it somebody who's gay or straight or transgender, and
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just you know, just just mixing it up a bit, and just a
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great sense of structure. It's so rare to find a well structured screenplay.
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It's so rare, and so every time that happens and it makes it makes
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it so easy to read. And when something's an easy read, you read
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it fast and you pass it on fast. If you have to read it
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and it takes a long time, your interest is going to wane. You're
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going to forget, you're going to put it to one side. You're going
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to forget to call your boss or or your collaborator or whatever. Whereas if
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you read it and go, wow, amazing, you're going to be picking
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up the phone, You're going to be writing an email, you're going to
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be writing a tweet going, oh my god, I just read something amazing,
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you know, and all that kind of stuff, and that creates buzz,
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and that makes you far more likely as a writer to get into someone,
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onto someone's radar. Very good. That's an excellent answer, by the
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way. Excellent answers. Now, what are some tips on selling dramas in
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today's marketplace? Which they are just so difficult, but I love to hear
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some ideas of yours. Well, of course I wrote a whole book on
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this called Writing and Selling Drama Screenplays, But basically the potted version of right
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of saying you know how to sell a drama, because you're absolutely right,
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dramas a dirty word in the current marketplace. You know, there's a lot
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of a lot of producers out there selling their dramas as thrillers, for example,
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when they're not really thrillers at all, although some of them do a
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very good job. I mean, I saw one of my case studies in
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the book is called ours and by the writer of a Arrival, Eric Kaisera,
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and it was his directorial debut and was a fantastic drama. It was
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about fatherhood, it was about responsibility, it was it was just beautiful.
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It was really really good. And it was the last job that the late
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Paul Walker from Fast and the Furious did. Yeah, yeah, it was
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a great It was a great film. I loved it. But they did
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sell it as a thriller. The distributor they had him on the on the
22:33
front cover looking all rugged and stressed. I was going, you know,
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like it was, And they had him on the back and he had and
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he's carrying a gun and all that kind of stuff. It does look like
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a thriller. So some some distributors and some producers as well, will sell
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dramas as thrillers, especially if it's got a very compelling kind of survival element
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in its like ours, because it was set in the New Orleans. So
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if you've got some sort of hook, like a survival situation, then maybe
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you could do that as a thriller. But that is a bit of a
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cheat, really, but it can work. Having said that, you can
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sell it as a really you can all sell it as a comedy as well.
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Because there was a movie about cancer called step Mom starring Susan Sarandon and
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Julia Roberts. Beautiful story about an ex wife who has to leave the care
23:30
of her children with her with the new wife's husband. She's dying of cancer,
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the ex wife, and she has to leave her young children with Julia
23:41
Roberts, the new wife and their father, and it's all about the two
23:45
women getting to know one another and actually getting over resentment and the unfairness of
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the situation because of course she doesn't want to die and all this kind of
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stuff. And it was it was heartbreaking and beautiful, really really well done.
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But they sold it as a comedy. And although there were bits that
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were funny, because it was very much from the tragic element of you know,
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if you don't laugh, you cry, it wasn't a comedy. It
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was a drama, but the distributor sold it as a comedy. I remember
24:14
the trailer and see yeah, and I don't think they even mentioned cancer in
24:18
the trailer. Who's going to watch that movie? Exactly exactly so. But
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it was a beautiful film. I saw it, Yeah, I saw it
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on television by accident, and I was weeping buckets. It was so good,
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brilliant performances, So yeah, so thriller or comedy, you know,
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trying to give it that kind of sense. That can work again with this
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notion of issues as well, things like cancer, things like teenage pregnancy with
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Juno, you know, you can you can give that as a hook.
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You know, using issues as a hook to sell them can work. Um.
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That said, when it comes to drama generally, UM, you're not
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going to sell it drama in the classic sense like you would sell a genre
25:03
piece, not in not in the in the current marketplace. So basically what
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happens is you're not selling stuff in terms of in terms of actually you know,
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getting a check and going in and you know, saying jaws in space
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and getting them to do a blank check to you and all that kind of
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stuff like you know, like everybody wants. But basically, what you're doing
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is you're writing the best drama that you can think of, the best devastating
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one, both best whimsical one, best survivalist one, whatever that is.
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And you're recruiting and it's it's kind of like a recruitment drive. You're kind
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of getting people on board with you. You kind of essentially call yourself the
25:44
writer producer if you like, or and you're recruiting everybody onto your journey and
25:48
making them kind of get on board with you and help you make this film.
25:52
I mean I was reading about or forgotten his name, the guy who
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did who was the producer of Dallas Buyers Club. You're talking about, yes,
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and it's it's just completely gone out of my head, which is which
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is really annoying. Um, that's a straight drama. That is a straight
26:15
drama exactly exactly. But of course it's about issues and it's it's a it
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was a very kind of present presient kind of issue because of course it it
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introduced to the mainstream the notion of transgender characters, and uh, it was
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it was something that was quite dark and also had some some moments of light
26:44
and shade um and made a massive cultural impact in the same way that probably
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something like Philadelphia did with Top Hanks. About twenty years before UM and interestingly,
26:56
around the same time that Philadelphia was made and was getting all its oscars
27:02
with Denzel Washington and Tom Hanks, Dallas Buyas Club was doing the rounds.
27:07
It was literally in development for about twenty two twenty three years. Originally,
27:12
apparently Woodey Harrison was going to play Matthew McConaughey's part, which you can see,
27:18
can't you, and it it just stayed in development hell for a long,
27:22
long, long, long long time because nobody wanted to make that film.
27:26
And anyway, the producer Kathy and Yules sat his name. Kathy and
27:32
Yules lost finance multiple times to make Dallas Buyers Club because basically it was his
27:40
pet project, it was his passion project. He really really wants to make
27:44
this movie because he thought it was important and he was absolutely right. And
27:49
eventually, when he lost it for the third time, he just got out
27:53
his roller deck or his FI effacts or however he does it, and just
27:56
called people up begging them for money. And he eventually found someone who said
28:03
who He said, look, mate, I gave you your start in filmmaking,
28:07
so now give me the money to make this film. And the guy
28:11
said, oh, no, no, no, no, I don't I
28:12
don't think. I don't want to make that film about about AIDS and stuff.
28:17
It's it's too much of a downer. I don't want to do it.
28:18
I don't want to do it, and he goes, look, it's
28:21
really important. We're going to win all the awards. It's going to make
28:23
a massive cultural impact to guarantee it. You know, Castie Jaws had that
28:27
much belief, and the guy said, you know what, I'm going to
28:30
give you the money, but when you go to the Oscar ceremony, you've
28:33
got to take me with you. And of course the rest is history.
28:37
They won all those Oscars and Castijas took his mate to the Oscars with him,
28:42
you know, and it's it's like wow. You know, you've got
28:45
to have that kind of belief when you're making a drama. You have to
28:48
understand that unless you're willing to get behind it one hundred percent like that,
28:55
then it's probably not worth writing a drama. You probably want to be doing
29:00
something else, you know, you probably want to write a horror or something
29:03
that you can sell a lot easier. Because if you think that writing a
29:07
drama and selling it just because it's lower budget than average is going to make
29:11
it easier, it's not. It's it's it's still like thirty million times harder
29:15
to make a drama than a genre piece. So that's always really worth thinking
29:18
about. Whenever my rioters come to me and say I really want to do
29:22
a drama, I'd say, well, how are you going to do this?
29:23
And if they look at me blankly, I go, oh, dear,
29:30
because you don't know the half of it, you know, But you
29:33
know, sometimes it'll come to me and say, right, I'm going to
29:34
make this amazing drama because this subject matter is really important to me. And
29:38
I've got this strategy. I'm going to go, I'm going to get the
29:41
money from from this scheme. I'm going to get the money from from these
29:45
kind of product placements and various investors and all that kind of stuff. We'll
29:52
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
29:59
show. I'm gonna take it to all the various film festivals. I'm going
30:04
to win loads of awards. I'm going to make sure it gets into the
30:07
Oscars. I'm going to go all out to go, you know, to
30:11
the ends to agree with that and I and every time somebody comes to me
30:14
with that, I go fantastic. I will help you because they know what
30:18
they're talking about. Yeah, then dramas are Dramas are such a unique genre
30:25
in film because they're the one that kind of like you can easily tweak it
30:30
to make it a comedy, or you could tweak it to make it a
30:32
thriller, or at least have those elements in it for selling points of view
30:36
where you know, sometimes there are those straight dramas like Dallas Buyers Club.
30:40
You know, I don't even remember if there was any humor. I think
30:42
there had to be in a joke or two in there, but you can't
30:45
sell that movie obviously as a comedy. And the other the other genre that
30:49
gets really abused is thriller. Now, what is the definition in your opinion
30:56
of a thriller? Well, for the thrills, so you know, that's
31:00
that's kind of you know, everybody knows that because it's in the name,
31:03
But you know, what does thrilling actually mean? And I think there's two
31:08
kind of key things that are in a thriller again something I mean, both
31:12
thriller and drama are two things that I feel really passionately about, which I
31:15
had to because I've written written a book on each of these things. Terms
31:21
in terms of thrillers, in terms of what I would call a definition of
31:25
thrillers, is a thriller usually has some kind of element of mystery to it.
31:32
There's usually they usually have to find out some sort of answer to a
31:36
question of some kind, who is behind it all if you like, And
31:41
then it could be a straight mystery as well, you know, the notion
31:44
of the who done it as well. But even if it doesn't have a
31:48
mystery element, because not every thriller has a mystery element, because at the
31:52
end of the day, a thriller just has to thrill. It can just
31:55
be exciting, that's the point. So I think what what is produced eminently
32:00
the point of thrillers is that it's about the chase of some kind, whether
32:05
they're looking for a like a mysterious answer to a question, or whether they're
32:08
literally chasing someone. It's about the chase, literally or metaphorically. Now is
32:15
there is there? Because there a horror films a lot of times can either
32:20
be tweaked to be thrillers as well, because arguably, you know, I
32:24
just watched it the other day and it is it thrilled? It definitely thrilled,
32:29
you know, but it also scared. So how do you play around
32:34
with that definition? Or are we really just getting into the weeds? Now?
32:38
I think there's a I think there's a considerable difference between thriller and horror.
32:42
A lot of people kind of mix them up and say that you know
32:46
that they're the same. And certainly there is some mixing within the genre.
32:51
You know, Thrillers can be horrifying and horrors can be filling, you know,
32:55
whereas But if you take it right down to the foundation levels, a
33:02
thriller is for the chase and a horror for the scares. You know,
33:07
horror is supposed to scare you, and so you know, sometimes you find
33:12
being scared thrilling, and that's great, But is there a sense of mystery?
33:15
There is there a sense of chaste there? Probably not necessarily. I
33:21
mean, something like It, for example, is a classic horror because yes,
33:24
there are thrilling elements in it. I loved it when he jumped out
33:27
of the fridge and out of the and all that kind of stuff. I
33:31
loved all of that because it is thrilling to me because I enjoy being scared.
33:36
But ultimately, it and arguably most of Stephen King's work in general,
33:43
is about vanquishing the beast. There is this bad thing and you have got
33:46
to stop it. That's the point of horror, and so it's about being
33:51
scared, and it's about vanquishing the beast. And who who could be more
33:54
both beastly than Pennywise. He's horror. Oh my god, what a beautiful
34:00
what a beautiful rendition of that novel he did. They did such a beautiful
34:05
job and all it was good. Yeah, I can't wait for the sequel.
34:07
I can't wait for chapter two. Yeah, no, I can't.
34:10
I mean I enjoyed the first UM TV series version of it. Tim Curry
34:17
awesome, but a lot of the plotting was quite whack, really, and
34:22
it was just it was it was just a bit lumpy and strange and and
34:27
it really kind of it was very NOINTI so a lot of really weird stuff
34:30
going on. It was. And it was also TV movie, so it
34:34
wasn't It wasn't an actual, you know, full blown feature film, so
34:37
might have not taken as much time that you know, caliber of the writers
34:42
might have been different, It could have been a whole whole sort of reasonings.
34:45
But yes, I did not see the Tim Curry version, or if
34:49
I did, I didn't remember it as well. I do remember him,
34:53
but this, yeah, right, but this version, but this version,
34:57
he was just eerie and scary. It was just it was beautifully done,
35:00
beautiful, and I love that that was in the eighties. That yes,
35:04
because now we tap into the wonderful The wonderful thing that's just running rampant right
35:08
now over Hollywood and over movies in generals, is nostalgia. Can you talk
35:15
a little bit about nostalgia and what is it right now? Because we've had
35:19
nostalgia for a while. I mean you can you can go back to examples
35:22
like American graffiti that was nostalgic for the fifties, and it's always a couple
35:27
of decades back. I noticed, it's like two or three decades away,
35:31
and then we can go back and be nostalgic about it. But the eighties
35:36
has something very special about it. There is something unique about that eighties and
35:43
now nineties to both which I think it's unique. I think it's just the
35:47
fact that we're old now. You know, people people who are thirty five
35:52
plus, so looking back on times of the eighties and the nineties with such
35:55
fondness because everything seems simpler then. You know, there was no social media,
36:00
there was no people in your face with you know, you could go
36:04
away for the weekend, nobody could hassle you. You know, now you've
36:07
got bloody mobiles all the time. We weren't at war. We weren't at
36:09
war. The economy was good for the most part, m not necessarily.
36:15
I mean, there was a lot of stuff going on, certainly in the
36:16
UK in the eighties. There's the minors strikes. There was a massive recession
36:21
that you know there for US and but for us in the US, I
36:23
mean, yeah, we had the Cold War, but the Cold War ended.
36:27
The nineties eighties and nineties were pretty much an economic boom for US.
36:32
Yeah, you know, there was there were you know, and we weren't
36:35
at a war until the nineties with the Desert Storm, but it wasn't like
36:38
an ongoing war constantly. And it's it's just a much more complex time now
36:45
with our question, Yeah, I'm not sure it is. Actually, I
36:47
think I think there's always been crazier, you know, crazy things going on
36:52
in the world. I think we just hear about them more now. Kinds
36:55
of stuff going on in the nineties that we never heard about at the time.
36:59
You know, the Taliban taking you know, the stronghold and stopping all
37:02
the women going to work, and you know, the Chechen rebels and the
37:08
destruction of the USSR and Yugoslavia was gone, and I guess I think we
37:15
were ignorant back then, and it's just we didn't get the information as much.
37:17
It's just now we're overloaded with it. Yeah, I think so.
37:22
I mean, you know, the genocides that were happening in places like Rwanda,
37:24
for example, just every bit as bad as those things that isis are
37:29
doing. And yet apparently this is this is these are the worst times that
37:31
we've ever lived in. And actually, I think we've always lived in terrible
37:35
times, and I think we've always lived in wonderful times. I think it
37:37
depends where you are um and and I think we're looking back with nostalgia for
37:42
the eighties and nineties because we're looking through rose tinted spectacles. Now. I
37:45
loved my you know, of being a child. I love being a teenager
37:49
and all those kind of things. But I'm not I'm not denying the fact
37:52
that I had problems and the world had problems at the time. And I
37:54
think I think that's something that a lot of people forget. And the Victorians
38:00
believe that nostalgia was actually a disease. You would actually become sick, you
38:04
would actually become sick for the past. And I think that's what a lot
38:08
of us do now, And of course it's easier than ever to be sick
38:12
for the past, because of course you can look on the internet and see
38:15
all these great things that you used to have or used to believe you had,
38:20
and now you think that now the present is rubbish. And I think
38:25
that's a real shame in lots of ways, because you know, you've you've
38:29
only got now. There is no own now now. You don't have tomorrow,
38:31
you don't have the past. It's now. You know, none of
38:36
us know how much time we have, and unfortunately a lot of us waste
38:39
it by worrying about things that have already gone, worrying about things that might
38:45
not happen, and saying that everything about now is terrible. And you know,
38:52
everybody worries. Everybody gets annoyed about stuff. You know, they've got
38:55
a crack boss, or their teams let them down or anything like that.
39:00
But at the end of the day, you have to kind of try and
39:04
keep gratitude in your heart for the fact that you're not dead. That's a
39:09
very that's a very good point at the end of the day, Like you
39:15
know what, you should be grateful that you're not dead. I mean,
39:16
you're here, might as well enjoy it while you're here and enjoy the present
39:21
moment, and that's the only thing you really have control over. And I
39:23
think that's a great way to write a character, you know, because also
39:30
characters a lot of times have the same neurosis that we have as human beings.
39:35
Um, which was going to ask your psychology I've had. I've started
39:39
from depression, of course, were so you know, it can be easier
39:44
said and done, without question, it can be easier. Yeah, it's
39:49
it's something you know a lot of people get really annoyed and say, oh,
39:52
you know when you say that, you you're you're We'll be right back
39:57
after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show, sticking
40:06
the boots into people who have mental health issues, and it's like, now
40:07
I've got every sympathy for people with mental health issues. You know, life
40:10
is hard and sometimes, you know, the chemicals in your brain really screw
40:15
with you. I know that just as much as anyone. But you know,
40:20
we have to reframe things, the bad things, and we have to
40:23
kind of hope for the best because what else is there? There is literally
40:27
nothing else pretty much pretty much. Now you also wrote another book about writing
40:34
diverse characters. Can you give any advice, any small tips on how to
40:37
write a diverse character? And what is your definition of a diverse character?
40:43
Well, I mean a diverse character. You know, the notion of the
40:45
word diversity, it just means variety. You know, for a lot of
40:51
people, as soon as you say diversity, they think that you mean race,
40:54
or they think that you mean LGBT, or female leads as well will
41:01
come under that, because of course female leads are so much less prevalent than
41:07
the male leads. So those are the three that people immediately think of.
41:10
And then I would also say, well, disabled characters are as well.
41:16
And it's it's actually shocking how little diversity there is in UM showing the disabled
41:23
experience on screen. It's really really surprising if you actually break it down,
41:29
how many disabled characters you see UM. You know, nearly always wheelchair users,
41:35
nearly always male, nearly always white, They nearly always want to kill
41:38
themselves. It's it's it's pretty sad. It's actually pretty sad. It is
41:43
really sad. I mean the my left foots of the world are rare.
41:46
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's it's unfortunate because you know, one
41:52
in five people in the UK and the US have a disability of some kind,
41:57
and there's many, many in what they call invisible disabilities as well,
42:00
that people can't necessarily understand because they don't they physically can't see them, but
42:07
they create, you know, massive challenges in people's lives. We also tend
42:12
to see disabled people only in drama because drama is about struggle and we are
42:16
nitially were able bodied people immediately think, oh, well, if you're disabled,
42:21
then your life is bad, which of course is nonsense, is absolute
42:24
bilch um, And so it's really great to see more and more disabled characters
42:30
in genre pieces. So, for example, Furrosa would be the obvious choice
42:35
that she was so good and she you know, she didn't just have a
42:39
disability, she had essentially an upgrade because because had she not had the robot
42:47
arm, then Max would have fallen from the rig and gone under the wheels
42:52
of the of the truck. And of course she saved him, and she
42:55
would never been able to grab him like that with her normal arm. She
43:00
could only grab him with her her robot arm. And we've seen robot arms
43:05
a lot in Hollywood, which I was find really intriguing. You know,
43:07
Bucky from Marvel has got a robot arm. Now got a vibranium arm over
43:13
you know Wakanda gave to him. Um, there's a detective Spooner played by
43:17
Will Smith in The I Robot in two thousand and five he had a robot
43:22
arm as well, and we've seen other robot arms in general. And of
43:25
course the Mad Max universe has always placed disability at its heart, right from
43:30
the very first movie across the franchise, and so I would like to see
43:32
more characters, you know, in disabled story worlds where people you know,
43:38
have issues to do with their disability, but maybe but not necessarily the whole
43:45
their whole story. I would love to see that. I would love to
43:49
see more working class characters, especially from UK writers. You know, we
43:52
have a lot, we have a bit of a hang up on lords and
43:54
ladies and all that kind of stuff. Over here is there? I heard
43:59
there's a wedding going on. What's that? I have no idea. Seriously,
44:05
I was on a train last week and one of the thing came over
44:08
the tannois saying, oh that that there's going to be major disruption on the
44:12
line next week next weekend, and I thought, what the hell is happening
44:15
next weekend? And I had to Google to find out it was the Royal
44:19
Wedding. I was like, that's how disinterested the average Brish person is in
44:22
the in the in the Royal Wedding. They're obsessed about it here. I
44:27
mean obsessed. Yeah, my sister lives in Australia and they're obsessed with it
44:31
over there as well. And you know, all my Australian friends and American
44:35
friends keep saying, oh, you're ready for the for the Royal Wedding.
44:37
It's like, how can I be ready for the Royal Wedding. I'm not
44:39
going everybody. You know, people assume that everybody in Britain is going to
44:43
this wedding. It is so funny. But I guess I guess it's the
44:49
because we don't have you know, kings and queens here, So I guess
44:52
I guess that's the thing. I guess. It's like, I don't know,
44:54
I don't know why why Americans are so enthralled with it for so much.
45:00
I'm not. I just every time I turn to television and I see
45:04
these guys, I'm like, I know way too much I know way too
45:07
much about the wedding already, and I'm not even following in Yeah, I've
45:10
managed. I've managed to mute and unfollow pretty much everyone who likes the wedding
45:15
now, so I've managed to be in blissful ignorance. So that's great now.
45:22
So in one last question, I wanted to ask you, how do
45:25
you construct a proper pitch? Because I know that's such a difficult thing for
45:30
writers and for filmmakers in general to pitch their ideas in your in your opinion,
45:35
how do you construct a proper pitch? Well, I would say the
45:38
first thing you need is to think about your log line and how you actually
45:44
communicate your story in the log line. I often talk on bank to write
45:46
about what I call with three c's of a good log line. So we're
45:51
talking about clarity, which is obvious. It's got to be clear. But
45:53
you wouldn't believe how many log lines just aren't clear, and so you don't
45:58
really know what's happening. And it's a really good thing to do is to
46:01
check for clarity always and post them in in places like well, the bang
46:07
to Write Facebook group will have a you know, you can write it on
46:13
the wall and all the bang to writers will chime in and give their feedback
46:16
on the log lines, and that really works, especially on clarity issues,
46:21
because then you've got like very often ten or even fifteen people chime in with
46:25
their feedback, and if they're not getting it, then you know that you've
46:28
got a problem. There's another great website called log line it, so it's
46:31
logline dot it and you can actually put your log lines up there and ask
46:37
for feedback. Another one that you can do is Reddit has a great group
46:43
called just called Screenwriting, and you can put your log line up there.
46:47
You do have to be fairly strong stomachs tea. Oh yes, anytime you've
46:55
go on to Reddit, you have to have a strong stomach. Yeah,
46:59
you do. So if if you get upset easily, don't go on Reddit.
47:02
Is my is my brutal advice, Just brutal, like they're the worst
47:09
God, absolutely brutal. I mean, there was this guy on Reddit the
47:14
other week. I mean he was going on and on and on at me.
47:16
I had to mute him in the end. He was going on about
47:19
how I didn't hadn't done the thing in my career and how I was really
47:22
sad blah blah blah. I was like, whoa, you're unleashing so much
47:27
vitriol on me. I mean, for God's sake. But you know,
47:29
whatever is a problem, problem, very sad place, no doubt. But
47:37
yeah, so Reddit can be brutal, but in the band to Writers Facebook
47:42
group we're always very you know, the whole point of it is moral support
47:45
and and peer reviews. So you know, by all means put your log
47:50
lines there, so clarity would be the first see of the three seas.
47:54
Character is another one, um, so you know who who is in this
48:00
what? What you know? What's? What is their motivation is? What
48:04
is the point of them being in in this thing? Um? And very
48:07
often we have the same kind of characters even in log lines. One thing
48:13
I've noticed over the years is what I call the negative adjective female. And
48:17
there's always, you know, the guilt stricken young woman or the bereaved mother
48:23
or the whatever, you know, something really negative and then she has to
48:28
overcome something, you know, even in a genre piece, and it's like,
48:30
oh my god, why can't we just have a kick ass females by
48:32
for ones? Why do they all have to be guilt ridden? Why do
48:36
they all have to be traumatized. Oh my god, you know, so
48:42
again they can flag up some really interesting things. Um. And then the
48:45
last one would be conflicts. You know, what is the situation this character
48:49
finds themselves in. So we're talking clarity, character, conflict. That's the
48:55
three c's and the keys of a good logline. From there, I would
49:00
say in terms of pitching, especially if you're pitching in real life like a
49:05
pitch fest or or on you know one of those um, you know skype
49:09
meetings that you can book with with various producers and stuff. Now, the
49:14
first thing I would say is introduce yourself. You know who you are,
49:17
whether you have any credits, and actually say what you're going to be pitching,
49:22
whether you're going to be pitching a feature or a short film or a
49:24
TV Just don't just don't just jump into it. No, no, don't
49:29
no, don't just read out your your log lines. I've had a lot
49:31
of very bad pitches over the years where they basically just kind of sit down
49:35
and go and just bark a log line at you, and you're like,
49:37
WHOA, what's going on? We're human beings, remember that exactly, you
49:43
know, And it's really really good if you can make some sort of connection.
49:45
All the best pitches I've ever heard someone sat down and said something like,
49:50
um, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
49:58
now back to the show. Oh hi, you know I've read your blog.
50:02
I really liked your article about blah. You know, I know you
50:07
like female leads. I know you like thrillers. So I'm going to be
50:10
pitching a thriller feature for you today. And I'm immediately thinking, Oh,
50:15
this person has done their homework, they know what they're talking about, they
50:20
know me, they know of me, and it just gives you a good
50:23
kind of connection at the beginning of the pitch. You don't have to say
50:27
you like things if you don't, but if you have happened to have watched
50:31
something that someone's made, or read their articles or or something you know,
50:37
and you had some sort of like prior knowledge, or you've met them before,
50:39
maybe you know. I've had had a good pitch only the other week
50:42
when a lady came in and said, oh, hi, we met at
50:45
Women in Film and TV, which is a union for women who work in
50:50
film and television here in the UK, and so we met there before and
50:54
we had a little chat quickly about that person. Then she told me a
50:58
log line, and you know, we had that kind of sense of connection
51:00
and rapper and of course I remembered her afterwards and that's always helped. So
51:07
yeah, introduce yourself, say what you're pitching. Say your logline, Try
51:10
and deliver it conversation if you can. Don't. Just read it out and
51:14
then be available for questions about it. And before you go to the pitch,
51:17
try and think of the questions that they might ask. I mean that
51:21
doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to cover all of them, but to actually
51:25
have an idea of what they might say will give you confidence, and confidences
51:29
will always powers a good pitch. Very cool. Now, can you tell
51:32
me a little bit about Bang to Write and the good work you're doing over
51:36
there. Bank to Write is well. It started off as a screenwriting blog
51:42
only, and then over the years it started to kind of change and I
51:45
started to talk about characterization generally. I started moving more into script editing as
51:52
well as script reading, so I started to I got commissioned to write those
51:55
two books on writing, which in turn got me more jobs on working on
52:00
dramas and thrillers. In particular, So I started to kind of really talk
52:05
about genre, really talk about drama, especially because I found myself talking about
52:08
thriller and horror a lot. So I talk a lot on the blog about
52:14
drama, a lot about thriller, a lot about horror, started talking more
52:19
and more about diverse characters as well, which that led into the into the
52:23
third book. But also one thing that I noticed over the years was that
52:30
people, you know, writers, really wanted to connect with me, and
52:32
so I created the Facebook group, which is really lively and really connected and
52:37
really engaged now, and so I'm kind of bringing that back and forth between
52:42
the main site and the social media kind of pages and also the main Bank
52:47
to Write group. So whatever they're talking about in the group, I will
52:52
make sure that I write about on the main site because I know that it
52:57
will power the site and power the chat in the thing, and increase the
53:00
sense of community and just make it more cohesive. And one thing that I
53:05
noticed that the Bank to Writers really liked was things like quotes and success quotes
53:08
and inspirational quotes. So I put a lot of quotes on the blog and
53:14
what we can learn from them as writers. I did one recently about Rocky
53:16
and how he's the Patriots say to writers, because I really think that I
53:20
think it's great because he's so motivational, and he's so spiritual, and he's
53:24
so you've got to go out there and do it, which is something that
53:28
I truly believe as well. Um and also in terms of other things they
53:35
like, they like productivity articles, so you know, how to get writing
53:37
done. You know, there's a lot of writers out there who have,
53:42
you know, very diminished windows in which to write. I know I do.
53:45
I mean, I'm a professional writer as well. I write novels and
53:49
blog copy and you know, I'm just writing stuff all the time constantly,
53:54
but I still have less time than I want to write my own speculative work
54:00
as well. You know, I've got I've just been planning a project recently
54:05
that you know, I haven't even shown to my agent yet. It's just
54:07
a story that I have I feel a burning desire to tell, but I
54:12
know that I've got a million other things to do first, so I'm going
54:15
to have to do it on you know, keep it on the back burner
54:17
and keep writing. You know, a thousand words here, a thousand words
54:20
there, just like the bang To writers who may still have day jobs in
54:23
completely unrelated things. So I write a lot about productivity. I write a
54:29
lot about self belief and motivation as well, especially when the bang to writers
54:34
have been through, you know, really bad rejections. Because one of the
54:39
great things about bang to writers on Facebook is that when somebody has rejected,
54:44
they might post in there and or be rejected. Everyone's like, oh,
54:45
chin up, it'll be all right, you know, keep going all that
54:49
kind of stuff, because only other writers really know what it's like to be
54:52
rejected, you know. I can say. I mean, I got rejected
54:54
yesterday and my husband came home and I said, I told him I've been
54:58
rejected, and he was like, oh no, and he went out and
55:00
got me a bart a ball of wine, which is very nice for him.
55:01
But I know that he doesn't he's not a writer. He doesn't know
55:05
what it's really like to be rejected. So the first thing I did was
55:07
get on the phone to some of my writer friends and so I'll be rejected
55:10
immediately, like ah nightmare, you know, and I'll do the same for
55:15
them as well. And we do the same in the Facebook group as well,
55:19
And so yeah, we talk about, you know, loads of different
55:22
things. We talk about novel writing more and more as well, because of
55:28
course I'm getting really into that. I love writing my novels, and it's
55:31
just because it's nice to have a change as well, because I spend so
55:34
long reading screenplays and so long, you know, writing stuff, it's sometimes
55:37
nice just to write the completely different medium. Although I actually think of screenplays
55:42
and novels as being the same, I certainly outline them in the same way,
55:45
you know, with the three acts and character motivations and role functions and
55:50
all that kind of stuff. I do them exactly the same way. It's
55:52
just novels are three times longer and a bit more psychological as well. Now
55:58
you're right, nonfiction looks as well. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
56:04
I will write. Yeah, I mean I even write those really with three
56:08
acts, to be honest. And one of those three books that you that
56:13
I know off the top of my head is the one the writing drama.
56:16
That's right, writing and selling drama screenplays, writing and selling thriller screenplays,
56:22
and then it's writing diverse characters for fiction TV and film. So that third
56:27
one actually incorporates novels as well. Because of course we're talking predominantly about characters,
56:31
and of course character right, whether you've got a character in a screenplay
56:35
or a character in a novel, you know they're the same thing. They're
56:37
just maybe presented differently, but other than that, they have the same kind
56:45
of genetic makeup. Very no, I'm going to ask you come with a
56:51
few questions. I ask all of my guests. It's going to be kind
56:53
of like speed round. What advice would you give a screenwriter wine into the
56:57
break into the business today? I would say, get a website and do
57:04
online networking as much as possible, learn about what it is to do good
57:08
online networking via social media and via your blog, and actually how to bring
57:14
people to you. So, in other words, create a platform. I
57:16
think that's really really important. Looking back, I did that kind of instinctively,
57:22
and it's really led me help me in good stead. Very cool.
57:27
Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life
57:31
or career? Oh blimey, there's been so many. I mean I read
57:35
it. I read about one hundred books a year, so it's it's difficult
57:38
to say. Really is it fiction or nonfiction? Either one? And just
57:45
something that comes to your head. I think for me, weirdly, the
57:49
one that kind of really sticks out for me and I probably and I probably
57:54
recommend the most to people would probably be Weave World by five Barker, because
58:00
it made such a massive impression on me as a like a thirteen year old
58:06
schoolgirl. I mean it was it was filthy in so many ways, and
58:09
but yeah, exactly, highly imaginative and so visual. It was so massively
58:16
visual. And I went on to read all these other ones like Image Occur
58:20
and and The Midnight Meat Train and all these comic books and all this freaky
58:23
weird stuff Kebab and all that kind of stuff, and it made a massive,
58:28
massive impression on me. Even though I don't write fantasy, just the
58:31
visuals of it. They never left me. And I can even when I
58:35
think of those words, I can see them in my head. Um,
58:37
so yeah, I wanted. I wanted to be like him, and and
58:42
really you know, and hopefully one day I will be as good as him.
58:45
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
58:49
whether in the film business or in life. Um, don't take things personally,
58:53
I think, especially when you're on Reddit. Yeah, especially when yeah,
58:59
I mean time as people kind of get under my skin. But nine
59:02
times out of ten now they just bounce off me. It just doesn't bother
59:06
me, especially online, and certainly because I've started to notice it. When
59:10
you have a massive online platform, you start to notice the trials on the
59:15
and the negative people say exactly the same things exactly the same way, and
59:19
so the more you're exposed to it, the more you become immune to it.
59:22
It's kind of like a mad online kind of vaccination, if you like.
59:27
So it's quite rare that things really bother me online. Unfortunately, in
59:31
real life, when things happen, they really still can get me down.
59:37
Even now, having said that, I recover a lot quicker than I used
59:40
to. It used to be that, you know, something happened with my
59:43
family, or something happened in my marriage or something like that would take me.
59:45
You know, I wasn't resilient. It took me ages to kind of
59:49
recover from it emotionally. But now because I've been doing lots of work on
59:53
myself about that, We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
1:00:01
and now back to the show. I think I think I'm much better than
1:00:08
I used to be. Definitely, So yeah, don't take things too personally,
1:00:12
especially not in the industry, because people say things when they just work
1:00:16
on the basis that they don't mean it, and if they do mean it,
1:00:21
just tell them to go, you know, f themselves. Okay,
1:00:25
And three of your favorite films of all time. First one has to be
1:00:30
Alien left a huge, huge gelible mark. I watched it when I was
1:00:35
about eleven. That will do it, That'll do it, Yeah, and
1:00:37
I was really shocked and it just totally overwhelmed me, and I just couldn't
1:00:45
stop thinking about it. And then I rewrote Alien in in my various notebooks
1:00:49
for about five years afterwards, just writing the same thing about a girl going
1:00:52
into space and getting attacked by monsters, and some of them were all right.
1:00:58
Actually, I've got a couple of my notebooks and maybe I should do
1:01:00
something with some of those some days. So yeah, if you ever see,
1:01:02
if you ever see a space story from me about a girl being attacked
1:01:06
by monsters, you know why. Another one that really kind of made a
1:01:12
massive impact on me would be Blue Valentine, the drama starring right so good.
1:01:17
Another Cassian Mules one actually that he produced um and it was so good.
1:01:22
It was so true, you know about you know the nature of divorce
1:01:27
and and love and that you know the relationship between men and women. How
1:01:31
it was, it was, it was. It was so brutal and so
1:01:37
true and so beautiful and tragic and just awful and oh god, it was
1:01:43
just it was so good. I really really loved it. So yeah,
1:01:45
Blue Valentine would be another one. And I think the other one would be
1:01:51
Toy Story, because I had I was about fourteen when that movie came out,
1:01:57
and I remember, you know, i'd never really seen three three D
1:02:00
animation before that. I mean, I know it was around, but I
1:02:02
don't remember ever seeing it, certainly never seen a movie with it. And
1:02:07
I remember going to the cinema and I remember being dragged to see it because
1:02:09
I was like, oh, I want to go and see a kids movie.
1:02:12
I'm a grown up. And I was like, wow, I could
1:02:17
not believe. I could not believe my eyes. I mean, actually,
1:02:20
when you look at the first Toy Story now it looks quite dated Story three,
1:02:27
but at that time that was the best they could do, and it
1:02:29
was. I was amazed by it, and I was also also amazed by
1:02:31
the fact that it was a family movie. Rather than just for kids.
1:02:36
And I just loved all the you know, like, hey, I'm Picasso
1:02:38
and his say basis on sideways, you know, the potato heads, and
1:02:43
I was just remember a gig. I remember getting it and laughing, and
1:02:46
I was the only one that laughed in the cinema. But it was because
1:02:52
it was because I live in Devon in the UK, which is tiny,
1:02:53
and there was only about twenty people in the cinema. But I remember thinking,
1:02:59
why don't the grown ups get it? And that's when I started to
1:03:01
think, oh, you know, there's such a thing as a literary illusion,
1:03:05
and there's such a thing as subtexts, and there's such a thing as
1:03:07
as these things that are put in you know, these in jokes for grown
1:03:10
ups and for cultured people in things that are comedy and stuff like that.
1:03:14
I started to notice different different things and how you could be fourteen and get
1:03:20
a cultural reference like that, but a grown up sitting next to me didn't
1:03:22
get it. I was like, oh, that's interesting, different responses to
1:03:25
different two different things. Not everybody's the same. And so, you know,
1:03:31
all of these movies really kind of you know, set off things in
1:03:36
my in my head as it were. I mean, because of Blue Valentine.
1:03:39
That's when I wanted to write the drama screenplays books. So when my
1:03:44
publisher said to me, you know, do you want to write another writing
1:03:46
book, the first thing I thought of was Blue Valentine. I thought,
1:03:49
I want to write something about that. Somehow I want to. I want
1:03:52
to kind of, do, you know, look into what drama is and
1:03:57
what the menu shy of of that thing is, because drama can be anything,
1:04:01
can literally be anything. So how do you put it down? You
1:04:04
know, at least with thriller. You know that thriller thrills, and it's
1:04:06
got to be thrilling in some way, and it's got to be about chase.
1:04:10
It's got to be about mystery or it's so that chase is figurative or
1:04:14
literal. But you know, what is drama? What is it? And
1:04:18
what is it that makes me interested in it? When something is so devastating,
1:04:23
as say Blue Valentine versus something like Little Miss Sunshine, which is not
1:04:27
their mistating at all, and it all has pathos in it, so what
1:04:30
is the difference? And so yeah, that that set that off and made
1:04:34
me think, yeah, what is what is this thing about emotional truth in
1:04:38
drama. Now, where can people find you in your work? Well,
1:04:44
you can find me all over the all over the Internet. I'm like gems,
1:04:46
I get everywhere. So if you google my name Lucy v Hey,
1:04:51
h A y, you'll find me. If you google Lucy Hay, you'll
1:04:55
find the Countess of Carlisle in Scotland. I can't. I'll win against her,
1:05:00
unfortunately, because she's a historical figure from the sixteenth century. If you
1:05:04
google Lucy v Hey, you'll find me. If you google bang to write,
1:05:08
you'll find me. BA and number two w R I T E.
1:05:13
That's one word, and I'm bang to write dot com. I'm Lucy vhy
1:05:16
Ortho dot com as well, and I'm basically on all of the platforms I've
1:05:21
already I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram. You know
1:05:29
you've tripping, you're tripping over me. I'm literally everywhere. Well, make
1:05:31
sure to put those links and also links to your books in the show notes.
1:05:35
Lucy, it's been wonderful talking to you for this last hour. Thank
1:05:40
you so much for dropping some nice knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank you
1:05:44
so much. Oh You're welcome. Thank you, Lucy for dropping some knowledge
1:05:49
bombs on the tribe today. If you want to get more information about Lucy
1:05:54
and her work at Bank to write, just head over to the show notes
1:05:57
at any filmuscle dot com forward slash six ninety five, and if you have
1:06:00
it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com, subscribe and leave
1:06:05
a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot,
1:06:10
guys. Thank you again so much for listening. Guys. As always,
1:06:12
keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive, stay safe out there,
1:06:15
and I'll talk too soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast
1:06:19
at Indie Film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E F I
1:06:24
L M h ustl dot com.