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Providing Novel Therapeutic Options For Acne By Leveraging The Gut-Skin Axis Ft. CODEX Labs · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is GameCare Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host Exxon and I'm very excited because this is another episode in the masterclass of Codex Labs and we have the amazing Dr.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Barbara Paldas with us again today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the show, Barb.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to continue this.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be here with you.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean last time we discussed, you know, DNA testing, and I know Codex came out with some amazing DNA tests.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So for everyone listening, if you haven't caught that episode yet, make sure you tune into that and check out the actual tests themselves.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's really phenomenal what Codex is doing.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: But Barb, we talked about that last time and I would love to learn about what's new at Codex.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been like almost six months, ECTA.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're focusing more and more on how the skin gut brain, yeah, I know you're probably going skin gut brain.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Axes influence our skin problems.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just about the surface of the skin, it's really the impact of inflammation, the skin gut microbiomes that we touched on last year.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we're finally close to having a complete solution for acne and some really exciting clinical results I'm going to share with you today.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what's even cooler is that this concept applies to many other skin conditions.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a ton of future work to do here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's really fascinating because yeah, this topic, I think it comes up in a very superficial way most of the time.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So like I'm really excited to talk to you about the data, really.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's just dive in.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I want to talk about the microbiome, if you don't mind.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you could remind us, you know, what is the microbiome and where should we be really starting our, you know, our knowledge for understanding what the microbiome is.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think more and more people are now talking about the microbiome.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's essentially characterized by vast populations of diverse microorganisms, things we can't see.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's present in many ecosystems, so not just our human body, but these complex communities are bacteria, fungi, viruses, yeast, molds, archaea, a bunch of things we probably don't even know yet.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And these microorganisms often play key roles in balancing or driving our biochemical processes.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what's always fascinating to me is that the microbiomes, for example, in our gut, on our skin, in our mouth, on our scalp, vaginal microbiomes in women are all completely different.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was kind of looking at numbers, this was this maybe might put it into context for your listeners, but our average microbiome contains about 10 to 100 trillion microorganisms, which is more than the 400 billion stars that we estimate make up the Milky Way.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So on one body in the gut, there's more microorganisms than all the stars in the Milky Way.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's insane.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's I mean, it's crazy to think about that we have an entire ecosystem, you know, living like on us and in us, like at all times.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And more than 99% of our genetics are the microbiome bacteria.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even our own genetics, right?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know with for me, the gut microbiome is the most interesting, you know, and I would love to take a closer look at that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you could tell us about maybe some of the bacteria that are found in the gut and some of the keystone organisms.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the gut microbiome is what I would say is probably the most studied scientifically at this point in time.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's again a very dynamic ecosystem in our intestinal tract.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And without it, we can't digest.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: It affects our immune system, our hormonal balance, absorption of nutrients.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so you mentioned some of the key organisms.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the kind of bigger groups.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the bacterioides.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: These are very widespread types of bacteria.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Their role is really the digestion of complex carbohydrates, keeping our energy equilibrium, and then basically balancing both our gut and immune systemic immune response through T cells.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And they actually regulate the size and the function of the T cell population.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So really they're the ones who help the integrity of that mucosal lining without which we get allergens and viruses in our blood and immune reactions.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the firmicutes, which also contain, so that's kind of the other major group other than this bacterioides.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they're the most common microbial strains.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so they include things like lactobacillus, for example, that we all know is in yogurt, but is also in our guts.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they're responsible for producing a short-chain fatty acid called butyrate.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really important for the health of the cells, again, on the inner surface of the intestinal wall.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they're also involved in fiber-rich food digestion.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And what's important for our health actually is the ratio of these fermicutes to the bacterioides.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And changes in this ratio have been associated now clinically with things like obesity or metabolic disorders.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So again, this biosis or not having dysbiosis, having a balance in the microbiome is really important.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then I'm sure people have heard of E.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: coli.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when there's like outbreaks of E.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: coli with those cause infection in the gut.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have too much E.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: coli, they're actually harmless and they're really important in synthesizing vitamins like B12 and K.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: They also help prevent colonization by other kinds of pathogens.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, bad bacteria can play a good bacterial role.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's so fascinating about, you know, it's all relative and the relative concentration of that bacteria.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Then there are things like bifidobacteria.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So these are the bacteria that help us ferment the indigestible carbohydrates like fiber, things like B vitamins and lactic acid, which are also really important.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they also help maintain, again, that balance in the immune function.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then lately we've been hearing a lot about aging and acromantia.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: That these bacteria live in the mucous layer and they help break down sugary proteins called mucins.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so generally, again, that's to strengthen that intestinal barrier and modulate insulin resistance.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you can imagine, are they implicated maybe in diabetes and also protect from metabolic inflammation?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: But again, if they come out of balance, they can also damage the gut barrier, they can cause inflammation, and they can actually disrupt recovery after antibiotics.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So all of these bacteria play different roles and they can, you know, too much is not good, just the right amount is what keeps us healthy.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they're most of them are commensal, so they're required for health.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: They also need to be present in certain population sizes where there are enough of them to balance each other out so that they can work harmoniously together.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what also always fascinates me is that say you lost your gut microbiome for about a month, you would starve to death or die of infection.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy to me.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So our gut microbiome is healthy and balanced.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something very interesting to me that you brought up the balance component because I know we hear about that a lot, you know, in like very, you know, general sense, but like the things that you were mentioning in terms of what what's actually being created by these bacteria, you know, and how that's playing this role in this like interconnected nature of what's actually going on in that environment to make sure that the integrity of your gut is intact, you know what I mean?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that all of these things are happening for a reason.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that consumers and even anybody, right?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what your background, it's hard to wrap your head around that.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that it is truly an environment, you know, every everything is feeding off of itself.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when I look at it from the clinical standpoint, I mean, the big thing that comes up is when you eradicate your gut, you get things like, you know, C.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: diff overgrowth, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we hear about the most in in terms of clinical, but then, you know, we don't know what that means in terms of the long term.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can then treat an infection of C diff, but then you don't know what that means for recolonizing colonizing and making sure that things are coming into balance again.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a very interesting point.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to actually discuss like this thing that you had brought up earlier, which was the gut skin brain axis.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you could tell us a little bit more about that, you know, and and dive into it more.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like what does it really mean for our overall skin health, you know, understanding this gut microbiome?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the skin gap brain axis is really what we're now using scientifically to start explaining correlations, for example, between the gut microbiome and also emotional states or systemic inflammation in the body, including skin inflammation.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's more and more belief now in research that a lot of the skin disorders, so for example, eczema or acne, are now thought to originate in the gut microbiome.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, as we were talking about, these disturbances in the mucosal lining or imbalance in the microbiome, or also overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, can all manifest as rashes or flares on the skin, or even some of these onsets of the skin diseases, such as psoriasis, can be triggered by, you know, the inflammatory cascade from this dysbiosis.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's interesting is that kind of the more recent studies, say in the last 10 years on the gut skin axis, show that most of these diseases are in fact associated with this altered gut microbiome, and that both the inner surface of the gut and the outer surface of the skin, so you can think of it as the surfaces of our body that are exposed to the outside, have the same types of epithelial cells.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what directly contacts these microbes in the microbiome.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, really, the gut epithelial barrier regulates the uptake of fluids, electrolytes, nutrients, prevents pathogens, right, coming in through our gut and through what we eat.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So then this gastrointestinal dysfunction and imbalance in this intestinal microbiome causes the success bacterial growth, pathopathogens coming in, and that means competition for nutrients and toxin metabolite production.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this basically causes inflammation.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then the inflammation affects the physiology of the skin.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So leaky gut means leaky skin.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, as early as 1930, so we can go back almost 100 years, and there were two very well-known American dermatologists, Stokes and Pillsbury, and they were actually the first to publish a connection between gut and skin and actually the nervous system through the pression because they were studying acne, and they were actually the first to propose a probiotic.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case, it was Lactobacillus acidophilus, the one that's used to make yogurt.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they used it for the treatment of acne, and they published for the first time that they saw improvements.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: They improved the gut microbiome and so they improved the skin.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: They also observed, interestingly, that anxiety makes acne worse.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And today there are more and more studies on the linkage between anxiety, depression, and acne breakouts, or psoriasis breakouts, et cetera.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a whole different topic, is the skin brain, and it goes through the gut.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we always say gut, brain, skin.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Also, now we're starting to see more and more research on gut microbes and oral probiotics being linked back to acne severity and their ability to influence mood.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Again, inflammation, oxidative stress that we've talked about so much in skin barrier, glycemic control, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or eating too much sugar or not being able to process all that sugar, as well as lipid content and high-fat diets.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So really this relationship between the gut and the skin, it's not just, you know, the microbiome, it's also diet, which is now also being studied for a lot of these skin disorders, also for eczema, psoriasis, not just acne.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this research, I think, will continue to indicate that those gut brains can access controls our overall health.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And pretty much we're all unique again.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: It goes back just like with our genetics.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has a unique microbiome.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't necessarily know what's healthy because some people may have completely different balance levels and they're perfectly healthy.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that same level might make another person sick.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it it's very interesting to start linking also the psychological aspects and the neurotransmitter aspects with flare-ups, for example.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, it it always like, you know, leads me to endocrine, you know, like personally speaking, like I always think about, you know, we always talk about these hormone fluctuations, especially when it comes to acne and teenagers, you know, we discuss hormones a lot, you know, and and how they play a role.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: But then what everything you're explaining now is just making me think of, well, is it really like a brain thing, or is it more of just like this endocrine disruption that happens, you know, at the end of the day?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, it's very interesting.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you brought up something interesting about the the you know, role of diet and all of this.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that a lot of times doctors will recommend adolescents to, you know, who are dealing with acne to reduce their consumption of things like sugars, high-fat foods, you know, processed snacks and fast food, all of that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's then a big correlation, right, between what we're eating and this skin-gut microbiome axis.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're absolutely right there.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're learning more and more about it, and we're learning more the details and the mechanisms of that.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, acne, as we all know, it's inflammatory skin lesions.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can call them pimples or more technically papilles or pustules, as well as commodones, which are non-inflammatory and combinations, like people get combinations of blackheads, whiteheads, pimples, et cetera.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there are now more and more studies showing gut dysbiosis and acne.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And for example, a recent study was looking at the commensal, like these actinobacteria that we talked about, the befidobacteria and lactobacillus species, and they were looking at basically people with acne, and they tended to have lower concentrations or populations of these types of beneficial bacteria and increased abundance of pathogenic types like proteobacteria.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's now being hypothesized that, for example, this gut dysbiosis leads to the overproduction of the oiliness, the sebum, which then plugs the pores and then allows the cutie bacterium, this non-oxygenated environment, to kind of exponentially grow and create pimples.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: But there are now studies showing that, you know, a high glycemic or sugar load index can influence acne because there's certain insulin signaling in the body that, you know, this overconsumption of sugar can lead to.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that triggers, going back to our genetics, a gene called FOXO1 that stimulates a complex called m-torc1.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that has been demonstrated to be associated with acne development.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we're now finding the links through the triggers of various genes, through the insulin signaling in the body that are tying back acne with sugar consumption.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And same with the high-fat diets.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're basically it's more through the gut microbiome.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So these firmicutes, if you remember that we're talking about the ratio.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when you eat a high-fad diet, you increase the growth of these fermicutes and you increase their ratio to the bacterioides.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Remember how we were talking about how that can also lead to obesity?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, by eating a high-fad diet, you change your ratio, and that then alters your cytokines, which again are immune basically response, and that promotes inflammation, and then that causes inflammation in your hair follicles and the hair follicles that reproduce oil, and you're back to that acne cycle.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: The other interesting thing is some acne patients have been found to have low levels of stomach acid.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's interesting because those low acidity levels allow bacteria from your colon to migrate into your small intestine.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it goes back to the imbalance, this intestinal dysbiosis, overgrowth, and then that can increase the permeability of your gut and go back to inflammation and inflammation of the skin and acne.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So while we don't exactly know like how these ratios of, you know, gut microbiota are truly impacting acne, what we do know is that these imbalances definitely lead to acne.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's really fascinating.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: That you really got into that gastric acid thing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: That I didn't know that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's very cool.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think, you know, it makes me think because a lot of times, even what we're ingesting, you know, a lot of the bacteria that might be harmful to our bodies usually die because of the gastric acid.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it just makes me think of like, you know, it like we're talking about food.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're eating something that's like colonized with, you know, the wrong bacteria, which happens all the time, you know, even if it's not ridiculous, like, you know, what we hear about, it can still impact, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: If they if those bacteria survive.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very fascinating that you mentioned that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's really weird is like if you look at yogurt, like ironically, like the rectobacillus, you have to have a higher fat yogurt and you have to have some sugar in it because they use the sugar and then they cloak themselves in the fat in the yogurt to survive your stomach acid.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just crazy.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So low fat yogurt with no sugar probably not have a probiotic effect.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So what is it then?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to ask you then, uh, you know, about the antibiotics versus probiotics, because I think this is a this is a big you know topic, and it there's not a lot of clarity for me at least.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, could you could you explain that to us a little bit more?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So basically both of them change or modulate your gut microbiome.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So basically any mechanism that modulates your gut microbiome can have either a positive or negative impact on acne or, you know, other skin conditions.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that means really, we were talking about diet.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we pretty much covered this, but you know, also I should probably mention like synthetic products, additives, and supplements can change the gut microbiome and lead to inflammation.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so eating a lot of processed food can worsen acne.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or if people are lactose intolerant and they have a diet with a lot of dairy products, that can also trigger acne.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's usually why our dermatologist tells you don't eat sugar, don't eat too much high fat, and avoid milk products.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: But antibiotics essentially they're used to treat acne, but and their main target is really to eliminate infections.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: So as you were mentioning earlier, you know, C.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: defacilli can overgrow and then you need fecal transplants.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But usually, you know, for overgrowth, antibiotics are prescribed to just kill everything.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: But and they also have, you know, anti-inflammatory and immunomodic benefits, but they're usually used to treat moderate to severe acne over a four to six month period.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is these tetracycline, you know, mycycline, doxycycline, or erythromycin, azithromycin prescriptions, they basically kill everything in your gut.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you have to rebuild your gut microbiome in order to get your digestive system back.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's now a new antibiotic called serocycline, which I think is used in the UK.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's used in the US yet to treat moderate to severe acne, but it has specificity for C acne.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So again, antibiotics are kind of like the nuclear bomb and they kind of wipe out the entire gut microbiome.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then they can lead to other chronic health problems.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, and the other chronic health problems can also have an impact on your skin.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: The other issue is if we overuse antibiotics to treat acne, like there's basically 3 million cases of acne in the US, just in the US, think of the antibiotic resistance that were other pathogens, right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just beyond, you know, using antibiotics and the effect on your own gut, but it's just the the overall, you know, what are we doing if we're treating three million cases that may not need antibiotics with antibiotics and causing other pathogens to become antibiotic resistant?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, I think that's so a valid point because I feel like every every medication you had listed off.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like all I have ever thought about when I see these these antibiotics was like broad spectrum, you know, like why are we using such broad spectrum?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, we need more targeted therapy.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very interesting that you mentioned that new drug.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would love to see that more emerge in dermatology.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's one thing, it's cool that we're using antibiotics to obviously target acne, but then it makes you wonder like, you know, if you're systemically administering anything, you have to think about every, you know, all of the other bacteria.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you it's like almost illogical at this point, you know, where we've come to now with modern medicine to do that.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: It it's, you know, now that we understand that bacteria are everybody everywhere, these kind of medications and therapies need to be reevaluated, I think.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's my personal opinion.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But very, very fascinating.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to see that drug, you know, if if it is being used in the UK to come over here because I haven't seen it personally, but very clearly.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and the problem is it's a four to six month treatment, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't like just take it like azithromycin for a week, you get rid of infection you have.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is a long-term antibiotic treatment.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where prebiotics and probiotics might actually play a role.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we need to start looking at from a research perspective.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, prebiotics are the non-digestible carbs, you know, they support your overall gut microbiome, and then the probiotics are the gut bacteria themselves.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think from research, we're starting to see, for example, anti-inflammatory bacteria like lactobacillus or bifido that helps balance basically this dysbiosis, may actually have results that are comparable to antibiotics.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we can treat acne with probiotics versus antibiotics, then it's like a double win, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's no antibiotic resistance, and it's also way easier on the gut because you're actually restoring that balance of the gut that's already in dysbiosis rather than just saying I'm going to wipe everything out and then rebuild it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now you had mentioned that you have recent clinical study data on your acne supplements.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Could you tell us a little bit about that?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this is our clear skin probiotic that we developed for mostly bacterial acne that is based on gut dysbiosis.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's uh so the so we looked at eight weeks of usage and we counted acne lesions.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what's really cool is that we saw a reduction in acne lesions of 58% over eight weeks, which is actually comparable to antibiotics.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I have a lot of hope for probiotics.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that uses the lactobacillus, so this is which occurs naturally in the human gut, as well as you know, fermented foods, sauerkrow, yogurt.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But that's an anti-inflammatory bacterium that increases levels of an anti-inflammatory cytokine called IL-10.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also been demonstrated in the literature to improve acne.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then we combined it with bifidobacterium lactus or bifidobacterium bifidum, which is shown to keep these pathogenic microorganisms in check and really support the immune system by its immunomodulatory effects and also influence inflammation, triggering glucose levels.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Remember those sugar levels, so this also helps with those sugar spikes.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last one is Bacillus coagulants, that's a spore-based probiotic, again with anti-inflammatory properties, but also it helps lower blood lipids.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes back to that high fat diet.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So for teenagers, for example, where you can't control their diet, this is actually designed to help offset some of those bad habits because you can't necessarily control every chocolate bar or every time they go to McDonald's.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we basically help their gut.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also two antioxidants here from Ayurveda.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: So one is Google, which contains Google sterons, and those have been shown to actually reduce blood lipid levels and lower blood sugar levels.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So again, addressing that dietary issue.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And Google sterons are known in the literature to decrease acne, comparable to actually tetracycling, which is one of those antibiotics.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: The other ingredient is EGCT, which comes from green tea.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: So this, it's a mouthful, you know, apigalactocotanin galade, but that's basically an anti inflammatory.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's also been shown in clinical studies to reduce acne.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we pretty much packed everything into a pill.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what's really cool is that this was an open label study that we'll be publishing later on in the summer, kind of 12 to 45 years of age, male, female, mild to moderate acne.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we basically saw roughly.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So commodonal, like non-inflammatory lesion reduction of 49%, so almost 50% in eight weeks, and the inflammatory, so pimples, about 58% decrease in eight weeks.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're super excited because this is substantial.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's huge.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's really huge.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh through as you know, when you think about supplements, you don't really understand like what, you know, what role they're playing, but you guys are, I think, almost approaching it from a very, you know, clinical standpoint, it sounds like, you know, it's it's really interesting to see that data.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it is.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're we're excited because, you know, we we might be able to get comparable data to antibiotics.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's very promising.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and you know, you had mentioned a microbiome modulation, and I'm very curious about this because, you know, I I I think it also depends on like, you know, what we consider to be true pathogens versus commensal organisms.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I would love to just hear your thoughts on this idea of, you know, C acne's, you know, like are all strains the same?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is there a difference?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Should we be, you know, targeting certain strains more than others?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are your thoughts around that?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, QD bacterium acne is just by its name sounds like it'll trigger acne, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what most people don't realize, it's actually a natural part of our skin microflora.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's there, you know, even if we don't have acne.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually, certain strains have an important role in maintaining skin health.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what's interesting is as you mentioned, you know, some strains are, yeah, quote, the good bacteria, the commensals.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's about nine strains in total.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them are actually commensal.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: The pathogenic ones so far that have been identified are 1A2 and 1b1.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, out of the nine, most of them appear to be good bacteria.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, stating that C acne causes acne is an overgeneralization.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is why, again, this whole genome sequencing of the microbiome and looking at at the strain level rather than the species level, is so important because we don't want to kill off the beneficial bacteria, which help actually prevent acne and that actually keep in check the virulent strains.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically, the other thing that's really interesting about C acnes is that it will change its behavior based on its environment.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So some of these virulent strains, if they're on the surface of the skin and there's plenty of oxygen there, because you know they're exposed to air, they don't overpopulate.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're stuck in a pore and the pore is plugged, so there's no oxygen, it's an oxygen-poor environment.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and there's sebum in there, oh, they go crazy.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so they basically there's it's almost like a switch is flipped in the bacteria and they exponentially multiply.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's your pimple.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it does matter, like where they are.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if it's the surface, like you said, you know, you're uh constantly exposed to oxygen and and you're getting killed off if you're causing damage.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the is that what you're saying?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's exactly right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they're kind of like a Dr.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Checklin Mystery bacterium.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you think of the hair follicle, your sebicytes in there, they excrete the skin sebum, the skin oil that's normally comes out of the hair follicle, coats the upper layer of the skin.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: That helps reinforce your skin barrier, protects your skin from other bacteria pollution.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's also nutrients for other parts of your skin microbiome, the bacteria that like fat, the lipophilic bacteria.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's too much, you know, it goes back to the balance.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: If there's too much of a good, you know, good thing, and if there's too much sebum in the hair follicle, then, you know, and you have dead skin cells, which is another kind of symptom of acne, is how your follicle, the follicular death of your skin cells, and they form plugs.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then once it's plugged, then there's no more oxygen.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get this basically crazy exponential growth of the acne's bacterium, of those virulent strains, I should say, of the acne's bacterium.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's so fascinating.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so fascinating to think about that on that level, because I think we don't, we don't really do that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you're somebody who suffers from acne, I mean, how much time do you spend really thinking about, you know what I mean, like what's causing this?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and that really leads me to asking a bigger question, Barbara, in in the sense of like, is acne really a problem that has to do with back like a bacterial disease, or is it inflammation?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like if you could clarify that, because I know that you had mentioned earlier, you know, you're talking specifically about IL10, but even other like other cytokines that might be more pro-inflammatory, like IL-1 alpha, IL6, IL8, I mean, what is their role and how does this all really work?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're absolutely right, ECTA, to bring out that acne is also an inflammatory disease.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there are certain strains of you know, bacteria, like the C acne strains that we mentioned, but it's actually we can we should think of it as a bigger like acne inflammation because that's what actually starts the development of the acne lesions because of that uh inflammatory response, just as you stated the IL-6, the IL8, the IL1A.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a tumor necrosis factor that basically causes the cell death to have these dead cells in the follicle that then plug it.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So once it's activated, the problem is that, as you said, it releases these pro-inflammatory molecules that basically stimulates the sebocytes, so the oil-producing cells in the follicle to go crazy.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so they produce a lot of oil.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: That basically disrupts the normal shedding at the edge of the follicle.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, normally that oil would come out.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then this biological storm basically that clogs your pore, and then you're back to the acne overgrowth.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if if the pore is just kind of a sebum and it's still open to the air, then that's your white head.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: If it gets oxidized, it's your black head.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then if it gets clogged with the with the dead skin cells and the acne basically multiplies in there, that's your pus-filled pimple.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So really it's, and and the more you have chronic inflammation in the rest of your body, the more that chronic inflammation can impact your hair follicles.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, so as you said, it's really back to the pro-inflammatory molecules.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then they also can compromise the local skin barrier around it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why you get these red inflammations, like, you know, when you have that acne pimple and there's like red around it, that's basically the body telling you there's inflammation.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, it makes sense.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, what's interesting is that this you you mentioned the barrier because, you know, we always talk about that, how acne really compromises your skin barrier, you know, and it's it's something that we is talked about, but then, you know, not really, I think, understood because, you know, there's things like water loss that I think everybody knows about.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your that water escapes and you get dryness and, you know, whatever.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, how does the impaired barrier really contribute to overall acne and the related problems?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's actually a really interesting point, ECTA, because a lot of the acne products, like whether they're salicylic acid washes or benzoyl peroxide spot treatments, they strip all the oil off of your skin.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're basically stripping that protective layer that prevents the dehydration in your skin.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So they are affecting your skin barrier.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the more your skin barrier is impacted, the more that drives again the inflammation.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the moment you weaken the skin barrier, it's more porous again.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're back to that leaky skin, and that allows irritants or allergens or bacteria to penetrate your skin more easily, which causes more inflammation and more skin damage.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this really negative cycle if you don't keep your skin well hydrated while you're on an acne treatment, and that delays healing because the hindered skin barrier basically will not only take longer to heal, but then you can have scarring and you can have infections.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you really do need to, I think it's really important to note that if you do have acne and you're using some of these kind of more aggressive products to really keep good control of your skin hydration and to use a non-comitogenic moisturizer.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess, you know, because that's actually, you know, I think a lot of people think the opposite for some reason when it comes to acne.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're like, no, I don't want to put anything on my skin that's gonna like, you know, cause too much moisture or any kind of oils or anything on there where they think it's gonna occlude their skin.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like, no, you have to keep that moisture in balance, you know.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes sense what you're saying.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's a you know, a note for anyone out there who might be scared to use, you know, more moisturizing products when you are suffering from acne and just keep a note of it, I guess.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I would also say for anybody on Accutane or isotretinoin, because that dries out your sebaceous glands, like that basically dries out your hair follicles.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so you don't have that oil coming on your skin.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes back to the skin barrier now being dry or not, you know, not having that lipid part of the skin barrier, then a lot of people who are on accutane for a long time end up with eczema for that very reason because they get that leaky skin, then that leaking skin triggers a different inflammatory cascade, and you know, you've gone from one problem to another.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, exactly.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's really about again, you know, balance.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really all of this comes down to balance.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just find it so interesting that we get scared by, you know, anything that feels like, or I guess the word occlusive, you know?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it's yeah, yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So but that's very, very interesting.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to actually talk a little bit about because earlier, you know, when you were explaining the the gut to skin, and then we talked about the brain a little bit.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had mentioned it makes me think of endocrine, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to ask you about hormonal acne and how is that different from bacterial acne that we were discussing just now?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're right.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we should probably talk, yeah, we should talk about hormonal acne.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So bacterial acne, I think we've covered, you know, that's the overgrowth of KD bacterium acne is on basically excessiva, and it's the whiteheads, blackheads, pustules, your pimples, basically, anywhere on the face, back, or chest.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: That also can have to do with, you know, sweating, cleaning, changing your bed sheets, you know, so basically, and it's way more responsive to topical treatments.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So things like salicylic acid and benzyl peroxide or sulfur.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hormonal acne, on the other hand, is a hormonal, is usually induced by hormonal imbalance.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So as you said, it ties back to basically the endocrine system.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually, it's interesting.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: It typically appears in women on the jaw, chin, and neck, or maybe the upper back, but not like the lower back.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you get your typical pimples, blackheads, and whiteheads, but it's so obviously we know during adolescence and puberty we have it, but then women can get it every month with their menstrual cycle.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: It can be triggered by pregnancy or it can be triggered by menopause.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there it's really the excess of androgens and possibly stress hormones like cortisol that again increase the sebum production, so back to the oily skin and increasing then the colonization of the C acne.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there is obviously a bacterial component to it, but the thing is it's triggered actually by the hormones causing the oil production.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So what about like something like PCOS?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because PCOS polystytic ovarian syndrome, I don't know, for all the listeners out there, I know that more and more women are being affected by this now, more so than ever.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel like the numbers keep going up for this disease.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, how does that play a role in in terms of hormonal acne?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right, Ecta.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: It does influence about one in 10 women of childbearing age.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it and maybe we're just diagnosing it more and we're more aware of it.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: But in PICOS, you have elevated levels of male hormones.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So these are androgens like testosterone that are the most common.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also have a higher than average sensitivity to progesterone.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes PICOS is associated with irregular menstrual cycles.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You may have excessive hair growth in certain areas, weight gain, in the worst cases, ovarian cysts, but hormonal acne is a comorbidity with PICOS.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, not all women with PICOS will experience hormonal acne.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And for those that do, the severity can vary.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: However, the POS hormonal imbalances do typically increase the likelihood, but also the severity of the acne.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's always worse around menstrual periods, and it tends to appear more as like cysts and kind of these tender knots that are underneath your skin rather than the fine surface bumps of bacterial acne.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's harder to treat because you can't just put a topical on it and have it go away.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think today these usually require medical interventions.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So dermatologists often recommend, you know, contraceptives, spironolactone, which is ironically a high blood pressure drug that was developed for men that's now used off-label to treat horvil acne.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So lifestyle changes.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you can in fact manage a good piece of it with supplements in the right skincare routine.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I it's interesting you brought up spirinolactone, though, because spirolactone is you're right, it's it's a very interesting drug.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I know with PCOS, it is actually prescribed pretty readily, you know, and the treatment because of its effects on on acne, like you said, and also hair, you know, just the hair that grows.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I have PCOS.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I I know that there's a lot of like, you know, other things that happen, including like, you know, we call it hercitoism in medicine, but really it's like induced hercitoism in in this disease where you're having like chin growth of of hair, you know, or whatever.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And these are other side effects.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so they give you prosperinal lactone because it's supposed to check all of that, you know, it's supposed to bring all of that in balance, but I don't know how effective it is.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm asking, like, you know, is there an alternative to this?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it has Codex, you know, found alternative, I should ask.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would say for severe hormonal acne, not yet.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that is now treated also with laser treatments where the laser is used to shrink the sebaceous gland.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say for mild and moderate acne, yes.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we just got the data back from our clinical trial that we did on our shot skin de stress supplement.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we were able to reduce hormonal acne lesions by about 61% over eight weeks.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really two menstrual cycles.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's based on kind of key ingredients.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you could think of as hormonal balancing, ingredients that are like inositol or myositol, and that's a carbocyclic that mediates cell signaling in response to hormones.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's used actually in the management of POS.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's often a supplement that is given for women with POS because it reduces plasma testosterone and free testosterone, as well as insulin, because insulin resistance can again cause chronic inflammation, like we're talking about the high sugar diet and acne.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also we have folic or pantothenic acid.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we all are familiar with, you know, high doses of folic acid before pregnancy.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: But this vitamin, you know, B5 is used basically to improve insulin resistance and also decrease testosterone levels.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the inocitol and the folic acid are there to decrease testosterone levels.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have L-Bianine, which is an amino acid from green and black tea, for example, or mushrooms, and that actually modulates brain function to reduce stress and anxiety-related symptoms, and has been shown to reduce cortisol, which is again another hormone that can then lead to androgens and hormonal acne.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: So those three are kind of the key three ingredients of the supplement.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, so in terms of you know the anti-inflammatory plants for IOA there, can you give us some examples of that?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I forgot.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good point, Ecta.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the supplement also contains anti-inflammatories.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And since Sean is based on Ayurveda, there are, because inflammation, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about how some of these higher androgen levels can also lead to chronic inflammation.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we have polybasal.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some people call it Tulsi.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's anxiety, stress, and depression-relieving component of Ayurveda.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: But also, again, it's been associated with decreases in glucose levels as well as inflammation and joint pain.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's turmeric, which we're all, I think, familiar with for its anti-inflammatory properties, milk thistle.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So milk thistle is slightly different because that one is that one contains silmarin, which is an antioxidant that targets the liver and also has anti-inflammatory properties.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: But we want to do is use something that will target liver clearing.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is there are now studies showing that its properties are similar to doxycycline.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes back to the antibiotic, you know, finding plants that have similar effects to the antibiotics.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last one is barberry, and that's another anti-inflammatory antioxidant that basically really there, it's the anti-lipogenics, again, the anti-high fat effect of barbary on the sebaceous glands.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it try to reduce, calm those glands that produce the oil.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a combination of antioxidants, but also things that help with essentially the high sugar, the high fat diet.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have MSM.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: So MSM is not an Ayurvetic plant, but it's a methyl sulfur methane, it's a great naturally recurring organosulfur.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's basically a chemical compound that reduces inflammation.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: People use it typically for joint and muscle pain, but we use it in this case to lower the chronic inflammation.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is so fascinating.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the Shant collection, by the way, Barb.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I literally, I think I'm a it's one of my favorite like collections in skincare because I remember when I first tried it, I think it was the mask.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is a little like, you know, side note for the our listeners, but the first product in the Shant collection I tried was your mask, and it made such a huge difference on the inflammation I was experiencing on my face.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I just immediately I was like, Yeah, they're really on to something, you know, like this is gonna be huge, this collection.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm really excited to hear that, you know, that there is this true anti-inflammatory property here, you know.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I have to.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have to get on it actually, you know, because it's a it's a big problem.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: POS, I mean, I think, you know, I say PCOS, but every it's very, very hard to treat.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's crazy because medicine right now, I mean, um I'm that's why I'm so glad you had brought up spiral lactum, because we really don't have anything that is targeting the overall symptoms and the true endocrine disruption that's there in POS.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's very fascinating that, you know, the data that you've been sharing, because you know, this would be a game changer for so many women out there, you know, and not in terms of even acne, but the fertility implications of this.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's really an uphill battle.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like right now, I can share, you know, for our listeners, if anyone's interested, I'm going through the whole fertility journey myself, you know, and it's a problem.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like even when you go through IVF and you're trying to do, I mean, ECOS will impact every part of your life.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so to have something that you can take and you know it's gonna make a difference, you know, here we're talking about acne, but in general, this is a very hard disorder, you know what I mean, to treat.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So very, very fascinated by what you guys are doing in that realm.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to ask you, do you have any clinical study results uh for the supplement that you could share and how it might you know compare as well to the other?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we did we did another open label study on basically more hormonally, more hormonal acne with this supplement.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was again over eight weeks because we wanted to hit at least, we probably should have done 12 weeks, but it was again kind of mild or moderate acne.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And here we saw this was actually crazy.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: So on the commodones, like the non-inflammatory regions, we saw about 30% at four weeks and 60% at eight weeks.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then for the inflammatories, within a month, we saw a 55% decrease.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like a 60% decrease at eight weeks.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we we you can really start seeing results at four weeks, and you know, they're in the 60s in the eight weeks.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: So again, they're they're very comparable with the probiotics, although it was faster for the inflammatory lesions, probably because the hormonal regulation happens much faster.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a faster cycle than clearing out your gut and reducing overall inflammation.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this this really demonstrates the potential of these kinds of supplements for hormonal acne.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we're gonna we're gonna be running a head-to-head kind of double-blind study against sporonal lactone.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we have one study where we're gonna pit our probiotic against an antibiotic, and then we're gonna pit this supplement against sporonal lactone.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is so exciting! I am so excited and I'm so happy that you're doing this.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I cannot tell you.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I this is game-changing.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like, you know, this is exactly the kind of route that we should be taking at this point with skin health because I I was having a conversation, you know, previously with somebody else about the the really harsh drugs, you know, used for acne.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many times do we talk about Accutane, right?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like the first thing that comes out of anyone's mouth when they are talking about true like cystic acne or anything like a severe case.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just I remember having this conversation and being like, why?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why are we still doing that when we we should be developing new opportunities and new, you know, solutions, I should say.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So this is very, very amazing work.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I really applaud you for for doing this.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, thank you for sharing everything today.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so fascinating to learn.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, acne.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hopefully we can prove it, you know, against these traditional medical treatments for moderate acne.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course, the last bastion is severe acne and cystic acne.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sure you will.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is very, very promising data.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for everyone listening, if you have not already checked out Codex Lab and their whole collection, I really urge you guys to do so.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions at all from this episode or any of the uh the knowledge that Dr.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Powell just shared here with us, please feel free to chime in and let us know and we will pass on your questions.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much, Barb.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: This has been such an honor once again to host you and to learn from you.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 42:30
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