Latest / Divorce Dialogues / How to Talk to Kids About Divorce | Dr. Korie Leigh
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- Korie Leigh (00:00): You're going to phrase things in ways you're like, "Oh, I really wish I didn't say it like that." That's fine. The next day you can be like, "Hey, remember when I had that conversation with you about divorce? I don't think I explained things in a way that I wanted to. I want to try again." You can do that. That's okay. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to fumble through things. Katherine Miller (00:21): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. One of the hardest moments in divorce often comes before the legal process has begun. It's the moment when you decide and then you have to sit down and tell your children. Almost every parent I work with asks some version of the same question, "What do I tell the kids?" But underneath that question is another one, and that is really, how do I keep from hurting them? And the truth is that divorce is a loss for them, for you, and like any significant loss, children are going to experience it in their own way and on their own timeline, much as you would like to try to take that pain away. (01:32): But the goal isn't to eliminate their grief. It isn't to make the transition painless because you can't. The goal is to help them feel safe, supported, and connected as they move through it. And that starts with understanding what children actually need, not just what we hope will make them feel better like candy and ice cream and trips and all that. So what this conversation is really about is helping parents navigate one of the most important conversations they'll ever have with their children and understanding how to support them long after that first conversation is over. My guest today is Dr. Korie Leigh, and she spent her career helping families do exactly that. Dr. Korie Leigh is a thanatologist, certified child life specialist, author and educator who has spent more than two decades helping children and families navigate grief, loss, serious illness, and the life-changing transitions. Her third book, When Everything Changes: Parenting Through Loss and Grief includes a chapter devoted to family separation and offers parents practical, developmentally appropriate ways to help children understand and cope with divorce. (02:43): So today we're talking about what children need to know, what they don't need to carry, and how parents can create safety and connection while their family is changing. Welcome, Korie Leigh. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Korie Leigh (02:55): Thank you so much for having me and for making space for this really important topic that so many families are going through. Katherine Miller (03:02): Yeah, and I think so many families wish they didn't have to have this conversation with their children. So let's sort of talk from your perspective about family separation as a form of loss. What might a child be grieving during the divorce beyond the absence of one parent or the other from the house at a particular time? Korie Leigh (03:23): Yeah, so grief isn't just the emotional experience that we have. For a long time, we used to think that grief was just the emotions that we felt, but what we understand about grief now is that it is so much more than that. It's how we relate to other people. It's how we relate to ourselves. It's how grief shows up in the body, how it actually changes parts of how we think and experience the world. And for a child who's also going through just typical developmental milestones, the grief compounds regressions and achievements that are already present. And so for a child who's experiencing this type of a loss, it can also be the loss of consistency, of routine, stability in terms of what to expect. There can also be such an emotional disruption, even if the parents are doing a beautiful job of trying to quote unquote protect them from conversations or there isn't kind of blatant arguments happening in front of the child, they will still pick up on the emotional residue, is what I call it, of the household. (04:36): And so there are lots and lots of micro losses that happen when a child is also going through divorce. Katherine Miller (04:43): Well, how important is it for parents to have their own emotions? Under control is I think not possible, but at least manage and understand where they're coming from when they talk to the kids about that. Korie Leigh (04:55): It's crucial. Some of the language that I like to use in the framework is not necessarily have it under control because so much of this is out of control, but have a really good understanding, have reflection, ability to understand what about this conversation is stressful, where does that stress show up in your body? How is it showing up? And what fears do you have about having this conversation? Just having a very basic understanding of where someone is before they have a conversation will absolutely help to lessen some of the anxiety because a lot of times what we do as humans, and this is just a natural thing, is we like to push to the side or deflect or just push through it as opposed to feel what is present and how do we get to the other side of something, and this is going to sound kind of scary for folks, is to actually feel what is present. (06:01): And when we feel that, it releases and it isn't as scary and it isn't as anxiety provoking. Katherine Miller (06:08): Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. You're talking about something that's really sadness and this is slightly different maybe in quantity, but maybe not qualities. My dad died last year and I felt very disoriented because I really didn't know what to do with those feelings. And I'm a full-grown adult. I've been through a lot of therapy and even I was just like, "Well, what do I even do with that?" And the idea of just diving into a swimming pool of loss and sadness did not feel particularly good. So what about that? Korie Leigh (06:43): Yeah, I think that's a really important point. It's one thing, and these are things we want to be teaching our children, is being able to identify emotions, being able to express those emotions in healthy ways, but also knowing what to do when we're overwhelmed with those emotions. The language of where do I put it? Where is its home? How do I not just drown in it or fall in that hole? That is applicable to the grief and loss experienced for families of divorce. So one of the things that I do, whether I'm working with someone who's had a person die, or if I'm working with someone that has some of these more ambiguous losses like divorce or separation, is help to identify a place for it, help to create rituals around it. So one of the things that I've done with families is let's say that the house that you grew up in or the house that you parented your child in is no longer the house that they're going to be in or that you're going to be in. (07:48): Having a ritual, going into each one of those rooms and talking about a happy memory that you had. I've had kids draw pictures for their houses and then bury those pictures in the backyard before they move to a different house. So we can take these really seemingly deep and heavy and sad experiences and find something tangible, find a place to put it. When I'm working with kids, especially around this idea of grief, kids will talk, but they will better play and experience their emotions through creative things. So a really simple activity I do with kids is I say, "If your grief were color, what color would it be?" And then we take that color and those color palettes and we put the experience of grief on paper. So something like that, that's very tangible, that's concrete, that is time limited, that gives a place can also help move those big feelings because what we want to do is we don't want to stop kids from having these feelings. (08:57): They're going to happen anyway. We want them to have strategies to feel them, to move through them so that they don't get stuck in them. Katherine Miller (09:05): That probably is a great exercise for adults too, to have some sense as to what to do with it because it's why I wrote this book, The Emotionally Savvy Divorce, is because clients kept saying to me, "Well, what do I do with the feelings? What do I do with the anger?" And I though, "Well, that's a really good question that I think I can help answer." There's so many people who say that adults should just set their emotions aside and treat the divorce like a business deal, which is such bad advice because. Exactly. Well, before I tell you why I think it's bad advice, why do you think it's bad advice? I'm interested in your answer. Korie Leigh (09:40): Your listeners have probably heard this saying before, "What you resist persists," and that is really true. The emotional aspects of whatever it happens to be, whether it's divorce or grieving a death or getting laid off or whatever it happens to be, those feelings are there for a reason. We have to be able to navigate them to integrate the experience. And that's something that hopefully we can talk about a little later is a lot of people think that, "Well, there's who I was before the divorce and now there's this new me." Sometimes that's true, right? Sometimes a divorce helps us be a better version of ourself or it helps us to live in a way that we've always wanted to, gives us the courage to do that. But it isn't about just cutting that person off or cutting that emotion off. It's about learning how to integrate it and not letting that emotion or that past self have influence over the current self, but kind of cohabitating with that. Katherine Miller (10:51): That's a great answer. It's all part of an evolution, but your emotions really point you to what's going on for you, but you don't have them in a vacuum. And so yeah, letting them just take over and so that you're a screaming banshee. Okay, no. I don't think that's particularly helpful for anybody, but really leaning in to try to understand what they're trying to tell you and where your value is that's aligned with that feeling where it feels like your value is being threatened or something is really important. Korie Leigh (11:22): Yeah, it's information. It's information for us to understand where are those pain points. Oftentimes divorce brings up a lot from childhood. It brings up a lot of wounding. It brings up a lot of attachment challenges and trying to navigate all of that. So if we have spent a lot of our lives repressing or deflecting in times of crisis and stress, those things are going to come up times 10, and it's just information for us. Katherine Miller (11:53): I'm really glad that we spent some time talking a little bit about how parents are experiencing the divorce, because I do think that children take a lot of cues from their parents in terms of is this going to be okay or not going to be okay? And while there might be grief, is there also going to be fear that mom or dad isn't okay, and what does that mean for me? But let's turn our attention now back to talking to kids about divorce and what they're going through. So I know that you recommend beginning a conversation with children about divorce by asking them what they already know or think they know about it. So tell me a little bit about that and what can parents learn from having that conversation? Korie Leigh (12:35): Yeah. Well, in the latest books that I've written, I kind of have a blueprint or a little bit of a map for having hard conversations about anything. But particularly when it comes to telling a child or preparing a child for something, it's super important to have a baseline of what their understanding is. First, it helps give you an idea of what they know, what they think they know, and most importantly, some misconceptions. Oftentimes when you ask a child an open-ended question, "What have you noticed about mommy and daddy?" They might tell you something completely out of the blue or completely out of left field that you weren't thinking, right? What do you understand about what's happening in our home and with our family? For older kids, that would be a question, right? So getting an understanding of what they know, what they think they know helps you to set the stage for first clearing up misconceptions and then providing doseable information based on what a child needs at any given time. Katherine Miller (13:47): Well, talk about dosing. What do you mean by that? Korie Leigh (13:49): Much like when you start a new medication, the doctor will recommend you start at a certain dose to maybe minimize symptoms or increase quality of life, and you have to take that dose to see if it works. So the same thing happens with information. Kids have a decreased capacity for information overload. We have a big cup of capacity. You can pour a lot in there before we zone out. Kids have a smaller cup, so they just need to know the basic information and then you need to sit back and wait, tell them just enough to answer a question, and then wait. Do they ask more questions? Do they say, "Oh, okay, can I go get ice cream?" They will tell you both with their behavior and with their language, if they're of that age, when they've had enough, they will also tell you and show you when they need more. (14:48): And that will oftentimes come up with follow-up questions, with questions that will, I call them backseat questions, you're driving to the grocery store and then, "Mommy, why do people die?" Out of the blue, those questions that will come up. And so that's information that your child is ready to learn more or ready to have more information. Katherine Miller (15:10): That makes a lot of sense. And I imagine that that's really different depending on the age of the child. How do you think that the conversation should change depending on whether or not you've got a preschool or a school age tween, teenager, or even an adult child who's not a child anymore, but it's still your child? Korie Leigh (15:27): Regardless of age, I do recommend starting with the basics, the basic information. With younger children, mommy and daddy are not going to live together anymore. We're going to have separate houses, or mommy and daddy are getting divorced, or mommy and mommy are. Whatever the situation is that's true for you and your family, just start with concrete, simple sentences, especially for younger kids. For school-aged kids, they're going to need a little bit more information. They don't need to know, has there been infidelity? They don't need to know that. Whatever the ins and outs of the reasons are, with a few exceptions, and I will talk about that in just a moment, they don't need to know who said, she said, they did, I did. They just need to know how is this change going to impact them that they didn't cause this and that they still have mommy, mommy, daddy, whatever the family structure is. (16:29): The exception of that, and I say this with caution and also to recognize that some divorces are incredibly high conflict, that some children have been exposed to and witnessed domestic violence in the house, and in those specific situations where the child has been a part of it, where they have witnessed it, it is okay to provide a little bit of context if they need it. Mommy is moving out because daddy heard her, period, because your child saw that versus if this happened and the child didn't hear it or see it or wasn't witness to it, they don't necessarily need to know that information the first time you're having this conversation. Katherine Miller (17:13): And for older children, like teenagers? Korie Leigh (17:15): For older teenagers and for youth, being honest is really important. Don't sidestep stuff. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be. And you can be honest. You can say as a part of that investigation part, "What have you noticed about the way that your dad and I are interacting? What have you noticed about how things in the household are different? I have to have a hard conversation with you. We're going to get a divorce." By this point, by teenage years, most teenagers are familiar and know what that is. However, I still think it's a good idea to follow that up with, "What do you think that means? What do you think that means for us? What questions or concerns do you have?" This is the age where sometimes their questions are not going to be appropriate and you're going to have to not answer them. (18:09): "Well, did you cheat on dad? "We're not going to talk about that right now. And so you're not sidestepping the question. You're saying," I hear that you have a lot of questions about this. Right now, we're not going to talk about the why. We're going to talk about it's happening and here are all the things that are going to happen in your life over the next few weeks or months. Katherine Miller (18:33): "Divorce Dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. As I hear you talking, I find myself a little worried about something. When you ask a child," Well, what do you know about divorce or what do you know about this? Or what have you noticed about us? "I worry that that could feel like a test. Have you been paying attention? Because if you've been paying attention, you'd notice that we haven't been eating dinner together, or you've been noticed that we're snippy with each other, or you'd notice that I'm sLeighping in your brother's bedroom, or something like that versus something that doesn't feel like a challenge because if they're going to be sat down, they know this is a big conversation because we're not having it from the backseat on the way to the grocery store, most likely. (19:33): So what do you think about my concern? Korie Leigh (19:36): Yeah. So one way to think about this too is you're gathering information, right? And so if your child responds with nothing, things are great, that gives you information that they're not picking up on anything that's happening non-verbally, that you're doing a really good job of maintaining a status quo, that you are present and parenting in a way that makes your child feel loved and fully supported. Katherine Miller (20:07): So then they say nothing, everything's great. Then you say, well, actually not so much. Korie Leigh (20:14): And again, these conversations never happen in a vacuum and they don't happen one time. And so if this is a case for you, you're talking with your child in a non-heavy way, they're playing, you ask them a question, "Hey, what have you noticed about mommy and daddy?" And they say, "Oh, nothing," or they don't answer you. Take that information, sLeighp on it, reflect, notice their play, notice their behavior, and then come back to it, have a follow-up conversation. The information seeking is for you as a parent. It's to gather information and to better understand where your child is developmentally and social emotionally so that you can prepare to have this conversation. This doesn't need to happen, nor really it should happen all in one. Katherine Miller (21:10): That's very useful. Korie Leigh (21:12): And about the conversation, sometimes it is a backseat conversation. You always want to have conversations in a style that reflects your family. Are you a sit down to dinner kind of family? Awesome. Have the conversation at the table. Are you a, let's get chicken nuggets and eat in the backseat because we have soccer practice and then I got to go to hockey and we talk about hard stuff in the car, talk about it in the car. Do what feels right for you. This does not have to be a big to-do, even though it is, and it feels that way. The more grounded and present and matter of fact that we can be having these conversations will be easier because you will continue to have the conversation because as children grow, if you get divorced and your child is three, when that child turns five and six, they're going to experience having parents that are divorced differently. (22:18): They're going to start asking you questions. "Well, did we always live in separate houses? I remember when we lived together, why don't we live together anymore? How come all my friends all have one house and I have two houses? "Those questions will come up as the kids enter and exit into different developmental stages. Katherine Miller (22:37): Kids are, and they should be, pretty self-centered. One of the things that I think they're really concerned about is what's going to change for them. And so I know that you advise parents to explain what's going to change and what's going to stay the same, but what do you think gives the children the greatest sense of safety while they're going through that transition between nuclear to binuclear? Korie Leigh (23:01): Having a consistent caregiver. If you parented in an ABC style, continue parenting in an ABC style. And so an example of that is don't stop disciplining, don't stop putting boundaries up. If you have certain rules for the house, keep those rules and be consistent with boundaries, with expectations, continue to parent and continue to be consistent. That is overwhelmingly what the research shows, what clinical experience shows, is having a single stable, consistent caregiver is the biggest mitigator of childhood stress and trauma. Katherine Miller (23:45): So if you have a parent who is a primary caregiver and another parent who maybe is a primary wage earner or is not in the home so much, but that parent now is like, "Well, no, we're going to have week on, week off," it sounds like you're saying that that should not be something that you go immediately to. Korie Leigh (24:04): For the interest of the child and based on their development, and this is a big one, yeah, we should to the very best, circumstances understanding. Sometimes it is not safe, sometimes it's not feasible, but to the best of everyone's ability, keeping consistency in routine, consistency in environment, and consistency in caregiving is overwhelmingly one of the most important factors. Katherine Miller (24:33): What practical steps do you think the parents can take to help their children feel really connected and grounded as they move between the two homes? Korie Leigh (24:41): This also depends on age and development and the custody schedule and everything, but to the best of your ability, having as much consistency and routine between the households as one can have, like having a consistent bedtime, having a consistent morning routine, we certainly understand that it's not always possible, but to whatever extent it is, having some understanding of what's going to happen, because that's one of the biggest questions that I get from kids that are going between households is, "Who's picking me up today? What's happening? What are the rules at daddy's house are different than the rules at mommy's house? And the backpack that I like is at daddy's house, but the favorite dress that I like is at mommy's house, and why can't I just have all my things in one place?" And so again, depending on the age of the child and what the presenting needs are, that can be alleviated by getting doubles, having the favorite backpack at both places, having the favorite dress at both places. (25:45): But if you can't do that to the best of your ability, making their environment in your home as structured and as pleasant as the child needs it to be, letting them decorate their own room, letting them have some agency and autonomy over what that looks like. But it is very hard to give blanket things because there's just so many factors that are involved. Katherine Miller (26:10): So Corey, if someone is listening and they are about to have this conversation with their child or their children and they're nervous about it as any parent would be, what is one piece of advice that you would give them before they speak to their child? Korie Leigh (26:27): You're going to get through this. It will be hard, but it will be okay, is where I'm going to start. These conversations, as I have said, you'll have lots of opportunities for redos, right? You're going to say the wrong stuff. You're going to phrase things in ways you're like, "Oh, I really wish I didn't say it like that." That's fine. The next day you can be like, "Hey, remember when I had that conversation with you about divorce? I don't think I explained things in a way that I wanted to. I want to try again." You can do that. That's okay. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to fumble through things. And as long as you can come back, like in parenting work and in the clinical work I do, rupture is going to happen. You're going to get angry with your kid. They're going to get angry with you. (27:15): It's the repair that's important. It's the coming together after the thing has happened. So let's say you have the conversation and it goes terribly, like everything that you didn't want to say, you said and oh my gosh, you can have the conversation again. It is okay. Katherine Miller (27:32): I think that is very reassuring because I think that as parents, we all think it's going to be the conversation and this is our one chance to get it right. But I think you're right, it is the beginning of a series of conversations that will happen for years to come. Korie Leigh (27:47): The other thing that I'll also add, and this can be really helpful, especially for parents that are quite nervous about what do I say, even if they have a script over and over, bibliotherapy. So reading psychotherapeutic books about the topic can be an excellent entryway. So there are lots of books out there. I have a couple of them in the back of my book for suggestions, everything from my two homes to the old school dinosaurs divorce that I read in the '80s. There are lots of ways creatively and playfully that you can start to introduce this. That's Katherine Miller (28:25): Great. All right. We only have another minute or two left in the show, but what I'd like to ask at the end is about a reframe and thinking. So what is a reframe and thinking that you would want parents to make about protecting children from the grief of divorce? Korie Leigh (28:38): We can't protect them from the pain of it. (28:41): We can't. What we can do is we can build resilience. We can teach them through our actions and through our words that we can do hard things, that we can get through hard things and we can get through them together. The other thing that I will say, which is a little adjacent to the question is we've been talking a lot about grief and this ambiguous loss of divorce, and I've worked with a lot of people that really struggle, especially if they were the ones to initiate the divorce, feeling so guilty that they feel sadness and that they feel grief. And what I would say to those people is that you have the right to grieve. Even if it was the right thing to do, even if you initiated it, even if you are the most incredible version of yourself because of this, it is still a loss. (29:37): At one point, you really did love that person. At one point, you really did think that they were your world and whatever that happens to be, that version of life is no more. And because this isn't a death, society doesn't really give us a lot of spaces to acknowledge that that grief is valid. And so you have permission to have really bad days and to feel deep sadness. Katherine Miller (30:08): I think that's really true. I initiated a divorce from my first husband and 100% know it was the right thing to do. And I still feel sad and regretful that I caused pain to him and to my kids and to myself, even though I would do it again. Korie, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. Korie Leigh (30:32): Thank you for having me. Katherine Miller (30:36): If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.