Latest / Reframe / 23: Grant Swinbourne - Influencing and Evolving as a Photographer

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23: Grant Swinbourne - Influencing and Evolving as a Photographer · Reframe

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what truly fuels a creative mind?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: What ignites their passions and drives their creativity?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm Dean McGuire, an Australian fine art photographer.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: From the moment I stepped into the world of photography, I have been captivated by the community and the stories behind the lens.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Join me as we delve into humble beginnings, explore artistic visions, and discover how we as a collective reframe our minds through the power of creativity.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Before we dive into this episode, I'd like to give a quick shout-out to the incredible team at Nisi Filters Australia.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Messi offer world-class products like high-quality filters with minimal colour cards, an impressive range of cinematic lenses, and various other accessories to fuel your creative endeavours.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Missy Australia actively supports the greater photography community through workshops, educational events, and live streaming webinars on YouTube and other social media channels.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: As a special treat, Nicky Australia of offering all reframe listeners a tool Discount.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can even combine these with other promotions of Silver Discaps by using the code reframe.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Check in at visitutes.com.au today.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you and welcome to Reframe.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: On this episode, I sit down with Australian landscape photographer and podcaster Grant Swimburn.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Join in the conversation as we discuss his passion for photography and his experiences traveling and capturing images around the world.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: He shares stories from his recent trip to Greece and the UK, highlighting the historical sites he visited and the impact they had.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Grant also talks about his approach to photography, including his focus on composition and his editing techniques.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: He offers advice to aspiring photographers and discusses his work in real estate photography.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, Grant discusses the use of Photoshop and AI in photography, the ethics of image manipulation, and the future of the industry.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: He also shares his experiences in hosting a landscape photography podcast and his plans for the future.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show today, Grant.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going today?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not too bad, dude.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today it's uh great to be on the show and thanks for asking me to be here.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh I'm really chuffed.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always happy to return the favor, and I really want to know about your latest trip to the to Europe and England.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, no worries.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can talk a bit about that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: We um we we just spent five weeks over there, uh mostly family, funnily enough, and not a lot of photography.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can't help myself.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've got to do some.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but um basically visiting a whole bunch of different places uh with my wife.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: She's got a family over there, so uh catching up with her uh father and her brothers that that still live over there and uh and their families and whatever.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it was mostly mostly doing that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But we did uh take a trip over to Greece.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I went to Athens for four nights and Crete uh in Heracleon, because there's uh I'm a bit of a bit of a history buff.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I had to go and do all the the Parthenon and the Acropolis and both of the Agoras and everything else that we could find in Athens.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh Nosos, which is uh the ancient Minoan capital uh in uh just outside Heraklion in uh in Crete.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I don't know if you know the legend of the Minotaur.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in in the labyrinth, apparently that's the place where that was meant to have occurred, but uh nobody really knows whether or not there really is a labyrinth underneath it because they still haven't finished excavating it.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean Greek mythology, how good.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that was that was pretty good.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: But uh other than that, I mean we've we visited a heap of uh historical places in uh it's one of the things I love about Europe is just you know the the historical buildings and the the stories of some of the people there.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um we took a a visit to Greenwich Naval Museum there, which is in London, just down the down the river from from London, and uh went and visited what's called the the Great Hall, which so I don't know if you know anything about the history of the place, but it it was a um a naval pensioners, it was called a hospital, but not a hospital in the terms of uh you know fixing people's injuries or whatever.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was a hospital in terms of um hospitality, it was where the naval basically, yeah, but the naval pensioners went to uh to retire.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so in in this dining hall, they basically uh in the uh late 1600s painted these murals all over the walls and the ceilings, and it's literally like the Sistine Chapel and whatever.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in there, one one of the interesting things that the guy spotted, he he came over, saw that I had a reasonable bit of uh photography kit with me.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, Have you got a long lens there?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, well, I got my 70 to 200, but I've also got the I had had my two times extender so I could go to 400 mil.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah not.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, when when we get in there, I'll I'll point out something and I'll get you to uh take a photo of it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, we're gonna go to the city.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds like a stitch of the tour.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, well, I thought it might have been.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, anyway, he we go through the tour, uh, and he he points up at this section in there, and it's a painting of the King Charles II or whoever, and his wife Mary, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this they were sort of like the centerpiece of this uh this ceiling.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And got the the big lens out with the extender on, went up, and he said, zoom right into Mary's chest.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there scrawled across that is this name of this guy that had obviously been doing some restoration work or whatever up there, and the date 1779.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's this bit of graffiti across this uh this Queen's chest on this uh thing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can't see it if you're just standing there with a naked eye, you can't see it at all.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But you zoom right in and uh it's there clear as day.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you put it on the chest, seriously.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, where else?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it it's that it's some of those little bits and pieces that you find that uh I I just find totally fascinating that you know this guy nearly 300 years ago decided to scratch something on something that was already a hundred nearly a hundred years old, you know.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh men don't change, do we?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Graffiti's been around.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, we saw some uh ancient Greek graffiti uh floating around as well.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been around for a long time.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good form of rebellion, so it always has been.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: You've traveled quite extensively over the years, um, with your job and now um being retired from work.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: How much does your the history that you like?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So your history buff, how much does that influence the way you shoot when you're on these trips?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um quite a bit because I mean there's a lot of stuff that I don't post.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's surely um just for personal use.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, what I do is I I create books out of these trips.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that'll be a mix of phone and snapshots and family shots and things we've seen and whatever.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I in in terms of how I shoot, yeah, I'm looking at the history.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get a good, you know, straight parallel lines and you know, get the architectural shot right without a tilt shift lens.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, you know, because I uh I haven't got the money to go and do that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather spend that money on on a flight than uh than on a lens.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I it it does influence it a lot because I I mean it's something that I've always loved.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when I travel, there's some of the things that I'm looking out for, you know, going to Machu Picchu, for example, that was a highlight, and Easter Island getting getting in there.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: That was something, you know, from a a young kid, you know, reading about the mysteries of the Moai and all that sort of thing, and why they were there and how they, you know, got stood up and all the rest of this sort of thing.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And just for me, it's trying to find out and explore the world in that way that you can actually understand it a bit better and you know, take those some of those things that I've sort of dreamed about seeing back when I was a kid and bring them to life.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Does does it influence the composition in any way?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it depends on what it is.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a I mean, uh I'll I'll pretty much shoot anything that looks interesting.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in terms of the compositions, I'm always looking for uh an angle that'll get the best, you know, out of it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have your lighting conditions or whatever are gonna dictate whether or not you can, you know, quite a lot of the time if you're say you're on a tour and whatever, that's always gonna happen middle of the day, so you you've got to deal with harsh light, which is another reason why I don't post a lot of those sorts of shots, because yeah, you know, they they look all right and they're a good representation of what we've seen, but they're not there necessarily in the best light and at the best time of day.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, it's in in terms of composition, yeah, it's it's really trying to get the best out of the out of the shot.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm always looking at, you know, for for a very long time, I haven't been able to look at the world without putting a you know a frame around it and going, okay, what would this look like as a shot?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no father.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: There was a recent one which I posted, I haven't got it on my website or anything yet, but um we were driving up the M11 in the UK, and this was this last trip, and there was this view out on the left-hand side of these rolling green wheat fields with these tractor tire marks through them and these power lines going across them.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I just thought, oh, that that looks interesting.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of mentally put that in the bank.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Told the wife on the way back, we're gonna stop here.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at the image now.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I uh came off the M11 at the exit before on the way back from where we were.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we went and I went and drove around a little bit.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd by this time I'd already mapped it in um Google Maps, and I knew kind of the road that I needed to be on, and I found a little lay-by that I could pull into.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cool.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Popped the drone up because you know, doing that shot from down low where I was parked wasn't the same as seeing it from the M11.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So backed the drone up to kind of obviously wasn't over the road, but kind of beside the the M11, lined it all up and took some video, took some shots, and uh, you know, pasted the one that I like the most, you know, get it and it was those sort of like leading lines and that um I I guess the the man-made structure on this kind of natural landscape.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of England's not a natural landscape because it's been farmed for so many years, or so much of it has been farmed for so many years.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it was kind of like looking at how man has is moulded and and structured this landscape and turned it into something that I I think looks quite artistic, you know.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can definitely see what you're what you're talking about with the whole perspective with the drone.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: You've definitely yeah, you've captured it right there.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Being from the ground, you wouldn't have gotten the same impact.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you're going overseas and with your drone, what sort of precautions are you taking before you you set off or take it with you?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, going to the UK, uh I don't know if you know or not, but you've actually got to register your drone.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's correct as a user.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, pay paid me uh 20 odd bucks worth of whatever it was to register it, and you got a sticky tape at Regio number.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, obviously packing it before you get there, you know.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I carry a backpack which has enough space for all my gear, but it's pretty um, I think it weighs about 12 kilos once I've fully loaded it, you know.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so getting that getting that through uh check-in and everything is um you know, I don't put it in the in the hold, it goes goes on the back.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Also means my wife has got to carry all the uh all the other gear.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: How many batteries are you taking on these trips?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I almost always have about four batteries with me.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is that per per camera per system?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've got uh I've got three for the drone and uh for I've only got the I only carry the one body normally with me.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I've got four for the the 6D Mark II that I've got, the Canon.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that's uh I always carry them with me pretty much and I just sort of rotate them through the the camera so that they don't you know die a death and keep them charged up before I uh before I head out.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, making sure everything's charged, making sure you've got a card in the in the slot, you know, whether it's the drone or the or the camera or whatever, making sure it's a it that that card's got some space on it, that helps.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just like today I'd forgot to put my card into the roadcaster and before we hit record, so that could have been a disaster.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Might well have been.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't had one of them in a while, so I was kind of due.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I mean also when you're on the ground, it's it's about finding a spot that you a in a public space.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I try not to you know fly drains where I'm not meant to.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I you know, I may or may not have done that inadvertently at at some point, but you know, if it's if I know there's a restriction on it, I won't fly it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the other thing I'm also looking for is uh birds of prey.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yep, I've been there.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I was uh up the coast here in New South Wales recently, and uh where was I up near Foster.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um there was a couple of ospreys and uh a white-breasted sea eagle, and they were all sort of circling above the beach.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to get the drone out, but I didn't get the drone out because I knew what was going to happen to it if I did.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: What drone are you flying at the moment?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's just a mini three.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: DJ Mini 3.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: No wonder you can fit it in your backpack.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that's that's why I can fit it.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's why you purchase it.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, what what are you what are you some of your processes in um once you're finished shooting then bringing a drone back?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, there's you've got to do a bit more play than you do with an SLR or a mirrorless camera.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So take us through your process from from shooting the image to finishing it up on your computer from a drone.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, Ruth, um mostly uh I'll bring it uh off the card onto a card reader.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll pop the card out of the out of the back of the drone, pop it into a card reader, download all of the files.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I keep two separate, one for video, one for the still images that I create.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of still images when I'm shooting, I will normally do a little bit of bracketing if the lighting needs it.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but also the the Mini 3 has a 48 megapixel, which is basically where it takes three or four images and blends them together and gives you a single DNG.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'll take those, pop them into uh Photoshop.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I only use Photoshop and I very rarely use Lightroom unless I'm doing a tutorial for somebody.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh basically pop them into Lightroom, I'll go through, make sure that uh I clean up.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Usually with the drone, depending on the lighting conditions, there's gonna be a bit of noise in there.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'll run it through a denoise process.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll use the the um uh Adobe Camera RAW AI denoise mostly.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um that usually takes a minute or so to run through.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh then it's largely just contrast adjustments.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and usually in those contrast adjustments, what'll happen is that your your image will saturate a bit.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I then use a desaturation of probably roughly about 33%.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just to give me what a much more natural color.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because what I've found with my process, I've I've got a fairly standard workflow, and it's much the same for the DSLR shots as well.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if I'm blending, it's a little bit more, you know, um a little bit more involved because I'll then you know take it through and do some luminosity masks to do the blends before I get to the stage where I'm actually you know doing the contrast adjustments.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um but mostly it's it it is literally contrast.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now how I do that is largely localized.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I've got a uh I've got a board where um or a plug-in, sorry, that uh creates luminosity masks at different values.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess one are you using?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm using Jimmy McIntyre's um uh what do you call it?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the name, sorry.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's gone.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um it's a fairly old one, but he's uh he's he's kept it reasonably up to date.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh Raya Pro, that's it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yep, that's the one I use.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I've found that fairly uh fairly straightforward.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um it creates two highlight, two mid-tone, and uh two shadow ranges that then I can use a curves adjustment in each of those layers.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it basically creates uh six layers that I can then very finely tune that um the the the tonal adjustments in in each of those areas.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'll leave them alone because I'm happy with them.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll I'll take a look at them and I'll play with them and I go, no, that actually makes it look worse.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um funnily enough, I usually uh key in numbers rather than move the mouse around on the curves adjustment.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um simply because the way I shoot, I've I've nutted out what works and what doesn't.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I'll I'll adjust from there though.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if it doesn't look right, I'll I'll either take it out in entirely.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it just involves a bit of toing and froing between making an adjustment, turning that off, and seeing what difference that made, and seeing if I like it.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: If I like it, I'll keep it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't, I'll chuck it away.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I no, I only ask about your drone processing because I personally own one as well, and I know that they can be quite convoluted to edit versus a um a mirrorless or slr.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I was just interested in in your process because yeah, it is like I said, it is quite convoluted in some points.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I mean I haven't found the the main thing I I struggle with at the moment, and it's mainly because I haven't done a lot of it, is uh the video editing and you know splicing and and bringing those uh elements together and say, you know, I'm I might take 30 seconds of this view and then try and blend that with you know 30 seconds of a different view and and whatever, you know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I might only use I only want 15 seconds of that 30 seconds.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's just looking through it all the the the time consuming bit is sitting there reviewing all the footage and then deciding what you want to keep, what you want, and then sequencing how do I want that, you know, because I might shoot it in the sequence that I thought I wanted, but then when I bring it back, I go, yeah, no, this actually works better if I do it this way, you know.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well that's good about being open in terms of your creativity, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's it is about you know just what I think works.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm I'm no great shakes at video editing, you know.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've I I do really basic edits, I don't use LUTs um very much, uh just the standard ones that are available in the tool that I've got.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't have any downloads or whatever.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and much the same in uh in in Photoshop and uh Adobe Camera Raw, I do have a default profile which basically takes everything uh pretty much to zero.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the only things that changes are texture, clarity, and dehaze.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I think it's 10% texture, 5% clarity, and 5% dehaze.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't want to go too much on those, do you?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so it it they're they're not massive edits, but that that's basically just where I that's my starting point.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't like those, where it starts, I'll zero all of those, yeah, and then maybe adjust them slightly.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: In some cases, if I want a lower contrast look, you know, then I'll um you know I'll I I might even uh add haze as opposed to take it away or you know remove clarity as opposed to increase it, you know.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So very it's pretty rare that I do that because I like I like those sharp sort of crisp looking images.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um that I I guess is is really been my style for a little while.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I start with that everything zeroed and adjust from there.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then those adjustments will be uh well, I guess one thing that I do do that might be slightly different.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh in the uh what is it, the not the color mixer, the color grading selection in camera raw or Lightroom.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: The Lightroom and Camera RAW are basically the same program.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Very much so, yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or close.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, the the Lightroom does some other stuff, but you know.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um any anyway, the the the thing that I do is I increase the luminosity of the mid-tones uh slightly, and I very rarely change the exposure in some cases.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I usually try to shoot underexposed a bit.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but I I I use that mid-tone slider instead of using the exposure slider.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: The reason for that is that there that's the area that usually needs the boost.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, occasionally I'll boost the shadows, but you've got a shadow slider for that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, but if you use exposure, what you're doing is right across the board, you're actually impacting every pixel.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so with the mid-tones, you're only affecting mid-tone pixels, and they're the if if they're the ones that I want to increase the exposure on, which normally when I'm I'm shooting, that's that's what I'm looking to do.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, that's that's what I'll change is the luminosity of the mid-tones as opposed to using the exposure slider.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I very rarely use that now.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I used to use it a bit, but um if you shoot it right the first time, you don't need it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes and no.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes and no.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are times.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the one time I will use it is is if I've added a uh uh if I add a um a mask to it, uh and then you know I select what it is that uh you know it might be a shadow that I I I want to bring up a little bit more and I might need to increase the exposure on.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: The thing, you know, with all of all of the sliders is it's it's just choices that you could make.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I don't really I my way is not the right way for everyone else.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the your way is right for you.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just what what looks good to me, and if it looks good to me, I'm happy with it.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm actually curious as to why you um you underexpose your work because I know personally for me it works, I know this works for my style, I expose to the right.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm not peaking, but I'm not over I'm not over overexposing, but I'm on that higher end.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually curious as to why you would expose to the left.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so why I expose to the left.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I the white and I'm talking about most of what I shoot.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So this this isn't for everything.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I kind of have an idea as to why you do it, but I'd I'd like to hear it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what I normally do is I will do exposure blending because I'm usually standing knee deep in water on a rock shelf somewhere looking at the sun coming up.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And once you've got enough light in the sky, uh what I've found is uh what I normally do is um I used to do three exposures in bracketed exposures, and what I've found is that with the 6D um for me anyway, I get more information out of doing five exposures and blending from there, and so the darkest exposure is about two stops under, and then two-thirds of a stop up, then two-thirds of a stop up, and so on.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So my middle exposure of those five is actually about one and a third stops under, and my brightest exposure is only a third over.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes sense to me anyway.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've I've shifted everything darker.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: The reason for that is that when when I get the highlights out of those darkest ones, they're pristine, perfect, and they're the the actual colours and and light values that uh I could see with the naked eye.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's what I'm trying to do is get a representation out of that.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm using the brightest ones to film the shadows with information only.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so by by exposing lower, uh mostly lower, so I've shifted everything down two-thirds of a stop, um, or the center value, sorry, is two-thirds of a stop down.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm doing is I'm an enabling myself to actually bring back all of that shadow information only in those brightest parts of the uh the brightest exposures that I've I've taken.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So in that blend, I usually don't change the exposure value once I've finished the blend.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So this this is why in in my defaults, almost none of those values change mostly.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a single shot, that's when I might and I I I usually expose central, but occasionally because the highlights are a bit too much, I'll pop it down two-thirds of a stop or a third of a stop, or you know, even even a whole stop if I need to.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um simply to capture that highlight information because I know I can recover the shadows, I can't recover a blown highlight.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very true.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's why I figured that's why you do that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I like I like my highlights to be.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, fair enough.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the joy of um yeah, that's the joy of white flogs.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I totally agree, and that's the joy of um you're shooting like sunrise.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the struggle most photographers would have is that direct sunlight is freaking can be hard to to harness if not if you if you have to miscake your own.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it is really about using that shooting process.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm always thinking about okay, what am I going to do with this image at the end?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as I say, sometimes I'm I might find in those five shots, I might I might bracket, yeah, and I might just find in in those five shots one that I'm really happy with.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to change, yeah, you know, and I don't need to add the I've got enough info in there, yeah, for the the the shadows and the and the highlights.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it just depends on the lighting conditions, and you usually find that when um when I'm doing something that's uh a little bit later in the in the morning um or earlier at sunset.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm doing a sunset shot and it's a little bit earlier, I've usually got the information I need.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I'm I'm doing a lot of pre-dawn stuff, yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh mostly.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that to me, those dark shadows need that you know, recovery.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I need a I need a longer exposure to get that, but I know if I do that longer exposure, I'm gonna blow the highlights.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just about getting that balance of what you need, the information you need, so I can create the image that you want.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to take a trip back in time here.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a two-part question.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, firstly, where did photography begin for you?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And how have you how has your style translated over time?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I go right, right back, um, my first camera I got when I was about 10.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was a little Ag for 110mm Instamatic.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was about five or six inches long and about half an inch high.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and there were no settings, it was literally point it and shut the button, and it came with one of those little uh the the swiveling cube flashes.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think I do.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I did I did have it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It could be up at my mum's.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite possible that she's got it in a cupboard somewhere, you know.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've I've still got some of the photos that I took with it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're rubbish because I was 10.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't know what I was doing.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I guess, you know, that that that's that's where it really started for me.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dad was a fairly avid photographer, and I remember he he was in the Navy, and I remember um him uh coming back with slides of all of these exotic places like Singapore and Hong Kong and you know the the trips that he did in the Navy, he he always had all of these amazing shots.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've basically got his slide collection now.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you know, some of some of the shots I think, just from a historic standpoint, uh are really nice because you you're looking at places that have changed massively in the years since he did that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we were talking about the 50s and 60s when he was he was shooting some of those places, you know.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, just looking at some of those, you know, from back in the day, I guess that was where a lot of my passion sort of came from.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cool.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where things I I mean, I bought my first DSLR probably when I was about 16, 17.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I've still got that.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh that's actually on the cupboard here behind me.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's an old Minulrex G1.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh bought that and a couple of lenses.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I used to do a bit of uh pottering about, mostly uh landscape and architecture, funnily enough, similar to what I was doing, but again, didn't really know what I wanted to do with it from an artistic perspective.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: It hadn't sort of clicked that way with me.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a few years later that that started to gel into something that I thought, okay, I I can actually create something artistic with this.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and funnily enough, I mean, I I I I didn't do a lot of photography through my career.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had uh had a fairly lengthy career, 30 odd years doing IT.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in between studying, doing uh starting the career, getting into the career and sort of moving up the ranks um in the various industries that I was in, um I kind of and then having kids, etc., I kind of didn't have a lot of time to go out and do photography.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until the digital world sort of started to come into uh you know into being in you know the the the end of the 90s and whatever that I started to get back into it.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it was there that I I started to pick the camera up and both the film camera, but also the uh the old point and shoots that I you know first started to get.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I mean, yes, I took lots of family shots, yeah, you know, picnics for etc.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: The kids, lots of baby portraits and whatever of the kids, etc.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that that that was kind of uh a lot of what I did with photography, you know, back back then when I was uh you know uh well sorry before the 90s anyway, that that was pretty much what I was doing.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh I decided I I worked for uh an airline, so I did quite a bit of um international travel.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so on one of those trips that I decided to treat myself to a uh a DSLR.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I picked one up and then really haven't looked back since.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's really been you know, both travel family, but also uh I've now decided to sort of turn it into a bit of a business now that I've retired from doing the IT thing and decided to uh you know I I guess look after uh the the artistic bent that's been sitting there inside me for for many years, but never really found a a big release.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I put most of my creativity in into my work, yeah, you know, the end of my work life at the at the at the time.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: How does um being now retired from the workforce affect your creativity?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is it do you find that it you've got now you've got more time, obviously, to to hone your passion, or is like you has it pivoted since you've um retired?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, defin definitely.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean it was uh before I'd retired, I'd I'd already started to uh I I guess get more artistic with my photography rather than um you know doing it to I I guess I don't want to call it journalistic because I wasn't selling images to to you know as a journalist or photojournalist or whatever, but it it was more a recording of day-to-day life and things that we did and that sort of thing.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And as uh as time went on, it it became more and more something about actually trying to create something artistic.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I I guess A, it was a a a source of relax relaxation before I retired, but now that I have retired, it's it's definitely pivoted again, and I'm able to do more uh or sorry, spend more time on it, which means that you know it it's something that I really enjoy doing and really find both as a form of relaxation, but it's it's now I guess turned into a bit of a job because I'm also uh now working with organizations, you know, like real estate and doing event photography and that sort of thing.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I won't do a wedding, but it you know, happy to do corporate events and those sorts of things because you know you you there there's a lot less pressure, uh I I think, and you know, you you don't have to deal with uh people um that aren't happy with your your work as anywhere near as much.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not scrutinized, and it's fairly simple photography too, you know.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, to be honest, interestingly enough, with the real estate stuff, uh knowing how to expose your blend is uh you know a big part of that because you know if you if you want to get the the windows and the interior lit correctly um so that you can get it, I I don't bother trying to do it all in one.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just blend and you know it it gives me what I need.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Your real estate worker using a flash or are you just using ambient light?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a bit of both.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh depends on the room.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I will use a flash if if need be, but uh yeah, it's um uh it depends a little bit on the time of day too.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you if you get a gig and you can't get in there until four in the afternoon and it's looking a bit dark, then the flash comes out.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, mostly I'll if I can I'll use ambient light because it I I I personally think you know it gives a better representation of what the room looks like.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you might turn all the lights on in the room just to you know give a bit of fill.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do have uh a couple of lights on a stand that I'll take with me as well if I need to do fill.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's actually like a permanent um one of those ring lights that you know uh YouTube influencers and whatever use, but uh I don't use it for that.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can take a couple of selfies while you're there.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: But uh no, I mean I I use those uh as I say for film lights, and that that usually gives me what I need.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, the f the the flash comes out when needed.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Being retired yourself and the growing population of retirees and photography is growing rapidly.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give to some of the like people that are trying to get into photography or would like to get into photography past uh or post-work life?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I well, first thing dive into it, yeah.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in diving into it, do your research before you you do it.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'd I'd recommend don't necessarily uh spend all of your superannuation on your um on your camera gear.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Good point.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna need that to live on.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's a good rule for everybody.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Buy the best camera you can afford.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, okay, if that means you you're buying a you know a hassle bladder or lyker or something hideously expensive, then go for it, you know, if that's what you like.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got the money to do it, go for it.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, the camera doesn't matter to me.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you're doing it with your phone, if you're doing it with a you know, entry-level DSLR, if you're doing it with a mid to enthusiast level or a pro DSLR or a mirrorless or whatever, you know.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: The camera itself doesn't matter as much as learning things like composition, learning things like uh you know editing, because they're the things that end up, I think, giving you the finished image.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, a lot of a lot of people go on about, oh, you know, I want to get it right in camera and it's straight out of camera and all the rest of this, and I didn't edit it.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's great, you've left it to the camera manufacturer who has made a bunch of compromises, yeah.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to fit stuff into a box.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he's got a lot of limitations put on him as to what he can and can't do with your image.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, me, I'd rather shoot raw, bring it out, and then edit it to how I want it to look.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know the the the straight out-of-camera mob and all that sort of thing, all power to them, if that's how they want to shoot, great.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's not me.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I think if you if you want to get serious about it, you want to turn it into a business, then you need to have a real good think about how much effort you're gonna put into that and what you're gonna do to you know get yourself seen and known in the industry, because I think that's one of the hardest things uh in this day and age, because pretty much everyone's a photographer, everyone's got a camera.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, unless you can get into you know things like real estate and all those sorts of things, you know, uh professional pro photography gigs can be hard to come by.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I found, particularly with real estate photography uh and doing Airbnb stuff and whatever, you know, every every man and his dog's either got a camera on their own, so they'll take their own shots.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: One of the ways that I've found success in finding work is actually finding Airbnbs or real estate photos that aren't that great, and then suggesting to them how I could help them improve their sales by you know helping improve their their photographic representation of their um their properties.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, one of the things I always uh have to giggle about when you when you're looking at Airbnbs, um some of the things people take photos of, and it's like, well, why have you got you know four shots of this plant that's in a corner in your lounge room when you know nobody cares?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to look at you, you might love it, but nobody else, nobody else is gonna want to see it.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what they want to see is can can I have I got a view?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can I cook in this?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can I sleep in this?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can I lounge around on the lounge?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can I use the tally?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're the things that they really care about in Airbnb, you know.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, and I'm not sure.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's about sort of helping people hone their vision.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things in in terms of advice for people that want to want to get into it is look for niches and ways of actually uh working with people to improve their vision of their product.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I I think that's probably one of the main things in terms of finding work that has helped me is look.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: For those niches where you can see somebody's not got a great result out of what they're doing now.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then cold calling them or turning up on their doorstep if you, you know, if you're local or whatever, and saying, Hey, I'm a photographer, I can help you.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a look at what you've got, it's okay, but it's you know, here's where I could improve it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the lighting in that room, you know, you know, could be better, et cetera, et cetera.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's it's about selling your ability to visualize something and turn that into a into a product sales point for them.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: But something you said before, I want to circle back on.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it was the straight out of camera mob that you the statement you said.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um it sounds like, and and knowing in your journey and and seeing your work and and having interactions within the past, I've noticed that you have had a couple of run-ins.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not I wouldn't say run-ins because that sounds too aggressive, but you've had a couple of conversations with people about photoshopping and and things like that.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can you take me through that, please?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, sure.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I uh I look at photography as an art form, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking about journalistic photography here, which should be not necessarily straight out of camera.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: You you can you can edit that image, but what's in the image should be in the image.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if if you're selling a a shot to the um to a newspaper uh as a journalistic shot, it should be a representation of exactly what you saw and captured in the camera.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you can tweak the contrast and all the rest of those sorts of things, but um, you know, it it should be a true representation.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And whilst I'm trying to give an impression of something that somebody uh has the ability to actually see, there's also a lot of my work where I might do a composite.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, so for example, you know, I might have a lovely shot of uh Horsehead Rock that I took at sunset, um, because that was the time when I was there, but I wasn't gonna hang around with all the title changes.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know you you know going to Horsehead, yeah.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know people that have sat there on the beach all night taking shots.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: It can be sketchy if you're around that horse head section, yeah.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I needed to get back and do what I needed to do.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: I had a visualization of a Milky Way shot, for example.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I can take one of my Milky Way shots that I took on a similar night that was clear and all the rest of that, and create a composite.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an artistic choice I've made.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a true representation of what I saw?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, because I wasn't there then and I didn't take that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm posting that on social media, I'm gonna actually say this is a composite, these shots were taken at different times.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna say here's a I I stayed at you know at Horse Head all night and I took this lovely shot.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um But what I guess grinds my gears is where people uh look at a shot where you have actually you know been there on the day and uh and all the rest of it, and they then start criticizing you for you know using Photoshop.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sorry, Photoshop is how I edit my images.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: I shoot in raw and a raw image, if you want me to put a raw image up, yeah, fine, I can.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't because I don't think it looks very good.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's flat, it's it's bland, the colours aren't right, yeah, you know, because you haven't actually treated the image.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like looking at the negative of an image, you you know, uh and I I think you said something, you know, that struck a chord with me, you know.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, back in the day, I could I I could dark room an image.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's whatever gone on to Frank Hurley about scratching things off plates.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: This goes back right into the deep dark history of photography.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: People have been manipulating images for you know the last 120 years since photography started.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Frank Hurley's a fantastic uh example of that.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: His work with um, particularly in in World War I, was roundly criticized by people saying, you know, it's it's not a true representation, it's not journalism.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, no, but it is a representation of the feeling of being there.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if I've put an aircraft in that's dropped a bomb and there's an explosion, and they didn't all happen at exactly the same time at the exact moment I took the shot, but I've got a shot of an explosion and I've got a shot of a trench and I've got a shot of a plane going over, and I can combine them.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: And how the hell he did all of that with glass plates, I don't know.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because he must have been a much more patient man than me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, those sorts of images and those sorts of things are some of the best known images of World War I, some of Frank Hurley's work, you know, they're they're representative of what it was like in the trenches on the Western Front.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, from my perspective, what anyone does with their images is their concern.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Two things I don't like.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Don't steal an image, don't take somebody else's image and reuse it, you know.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Use your own work, you know, and you know, do what you want with them though, do what feels right to you.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that includes, you know, blending it with something from AI, well, great.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: If that's what you think looks good, go for it.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it doesn't really matter from an artistic perspective because art is art and art is what you want to create.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, subjective.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very much a subjective thing.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone that sort of gets on their high horse and looks down at people that do those sorts of things, uh, they they don't, I I think don't understand the skill that it takes.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people think, oh, it's cheating.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in what way?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually probably spent more time on creating that composite and uh blocking out the the various bits and bobs and knowing how to manipulate the image so that it looks right at the end, you know, because I've used different, you know, I've used different things from different lighting sources, or with sorry, with different lighting sources from different directions and all the rest of that.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore, how have I made this thing look right?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that might be flipping part of the image around, you know, so reversing it so that the light is coming from the right angle and and so forth.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it the the skill in manipulating that is a skill in in and of itself.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and whilst you might want to call it digital art as opposed to photography, well to me it's neither here nor there because you know, photography is nowadays, anyway, mostly an electronic representation or a print representation of something that somebody may or may not have seen.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and what people don't realise as well, though, is if you shoot or capture an image on your phone or as a JPEG on your camera, there is some in-camera or in phone processing happening.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: So not there's not one image that's not processed.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, absolutely right.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean so I you know, to to anyone who gets on their high horse about you know getting it right in camera or saying that you know doing it their way is the only right way.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sorry, I can't agree with that.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, that's an opinion, and I'm probably not going to change many people's opinions.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, it it but you know, allow me the leeway to do what I want with my work, and I'm definitely going to allow anyone else to do whatever it is that they want to do with their work.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, when it comes to things like generating images using AI, you know, anyone that's listened to Landscape Photography World My Podcast will know it's something that I I I've dabbled with, but I don't really find very interesting because you know I've typed a few words and an image has been generated.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: That image has been generated from an algorithm that has studied a whole bunch of other art that it probably didn't have the right to, you know.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there there's dubious ownership uh around it.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I think there's dubious ownership around the actual image.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, there there's people saying, well, yes, the person that typed the words is the one that owns the image.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, are they really?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Did they really create it?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I reckon the blokes that wrote the code um, you know, uh are probably more owners of that image than anyone else because they wrote the code that actually generated the image.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean I I I agree with you in the whole AI point standpoint to a degree, um, in terms of if you're just typing in the words and then sharing it saying it's yours, yeah, okay, fair enough.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's still AI generated.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: But then you go to somebody who's been on your podcast and I've spoken to recently, which will drop soon, is um or would have already been dropped by now, but is Sandra Dan, where she is such a creative, like she started with photography and comes in with that mindset, puts the words in and then or generates and then then takes that into Photoshop to create her own scene um from all these different and and and that's an art form in itself.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, and it's yep, it's an art form in itself, yeah.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally agree.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh as I say, if if you're just going to the AI image generators, I mean, even even Photoshop, you know, because you can do it in Photoshop.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can start with a blank canvas in in Photoshop, go to your generative fill, type in some words, and it'll fill it, yeah, usually with junk, from what I've seen of it.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've I've used it in the past, uh generative fill, and and the reason I've used it is because of a time of day and I I edit so uh a lot of my work, well I should say all of my work, I edit a lot.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I actually used it just to put long exposure water in because the tides weren't playing ball on that day.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they were supposed to be high, but they weren't.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the water wasn't rushing in over the rock shelf enough um down the coast.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I just put it there because I'm like, well, this is what I would generally do if it was long exposure.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I did the water and then smoothed it out anyway.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's how, but so it's like, but you've got to say, yeah, you like you like you said, you've got to say, hey, this is what I've done.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to flog this off as real.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's where you've got to draw the line.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to, yeah, as long as you're not trying to trick anybody into believing this is this is reality, this is what I saw.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: The the the problem with social media, of course, is the saturation of all of these images that are out there, it's very difficult for lay people to detect an AI generated image.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna become harder and harder as the the algorithms get better and better at you know generating more photorealistic stuff.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, right now I still think you know Mid Journey and and some of the others uh are still a bit ropey.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you you can look at them and go, yeah, looks looks pretty AI.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen uh that that said, I've also seen some uh photography that looks a little AI generated.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is it overprocessed?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Who cares?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it does it matters less that someone has actually manipulated an image.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: What matters more is whether they're being honest about the manipulation.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, it's that honesty and transparency and saying, hey, I have manipulated this, I've made a composite, or I've used AI or whatever it is, as opposed to sitting there saying, Hey, look at me, you know, I've I've taken this shot, I got it all right in camera, yeah.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then saying, you know, yeah, and and and then showing somebody something that's clearly, you know, been manipulated.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what would you say?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna might put you on the spot a little bit here, and I don't want it to come off the wrong way, but what would you say to someone saying, well, AI is what Photoshop was to film?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: AI is just a a a combat to photography and for Photoshop versus what just natural film photography and painting is.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like what would you say to that?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a gen, it's just a change in technology and generational thing.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd say yes, but no.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because from uh a photographic standpoint, there's no lens that has been pointed at something captured the light and recorded that exactly.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's happened is a bunch of ones and zeros have been arranged in a certain way to generate, and yeah, you could say that's what's happening in a camera, but what's actually happening in a camera is that light is coming through a lens, hitting a sensor, and then that light is how those or the the interpretation of that light is how those ones and zeros are being arranged in the file ends up being so.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: The alternative with AI is there's it's not pointing at anything, it's purely a machine that is generating ones and zeros arranged in a certain way that shows somebody an image.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so the that's where the difference for me is.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's where it's you could call it digital art, you could call it whatever you wanted, but I don't I don't call AI photography.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's definitely not photography, it's not at all.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: So in that sense, I don't think it's i if you take it in terms of an artistic transition from painting to photography to AI generation, yeah, it's it's probably that next iteration.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if you if you're trying to sell it to me as the next iteration of photography, no, forget it.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not buying it.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's definitely not a photography, nor is photography a painting.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like that whole exactly, yeah.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you even know?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and uh Sant Sandra has has done a bit of that herself.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've also uh recently had Nikki Cumston on who actually prints a work and then hand paints.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's unreal.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, is it photography?
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a painting?
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no, no, it's it's a combination.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh yeah, exactly.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's mixed media.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's mixed media or whatever you want to call it, you know.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, this is where I get back to well, you know, people can do whatever the hell they like.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just don't try to sell it as something it's not.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that's my point, is that if you're trying to sell it as something that it's not, then that's where you're being dishonest.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that's where I go.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're misleading people, you know.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's when you're being honest and transparent and saying, well, here's here's my process, you know, and you can lay it out.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm more than happy to lay out my process in doing comps and that sort of thing, um, to to anybody and anybody that wants to ask.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, mostly people don't ask because they don't even read the captions, you know.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: They just like and scroll.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think we're partially to blame uh for a lot of the AI stuff because we're producing so much photography now that the computer systems have a reference to go off?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is that the photographer's fault?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, just more so just the person posting a photograph.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean the photographer themselves.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's such a plethora of platforms and uh you know the the the amount of content that exists out there is so vast now um that it's you know it it's virtually impossible to you can't wind it back, you know.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the only way you're gonna wind it back is to turn the internet off and good luck with that, you know.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you know the it it's really a uh it it's just a stage of the art in terms of where we're at now.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: It'll evolve, it'll change, I think.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, who knows where social media will end up.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to to be honest, there's some the there's some really dark and horrible parts of social media that I think should be switched off.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I don't think the uh the sociopaths that run the social media platforms are gonna stop making money.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they that that's all they're interested in.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly it.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, AI is the same.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I think a lot of companies rushing into AI, and this this goes beyond image generation.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think a lot of companies rushing in to implement AI in their organizations haven't necessarily thought about the uh sort of malpractice that can occur, yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Both by their own employees, but also, you know, disgruntled employee could get in there and cause all sorts of havoc with with the AI if if they knew what they were up to, you know.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and unfortunately it it's a little bit like the reliance on Google instead of memory and reading and uh and whatever, you know.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: You you go you you have a question to ask.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I remember back in the day when I was a a young kid, um, it was always go and look it up in the encyclopedia or the dictionary, you know.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to go to a book, and that was that that was where you found some of that knowledge, you know.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, okay, back in the day, some of that knowledge is now being proved to be wrong or different or changed.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's one of the things that I think, you know, that reliance or putting your reliance on AI and algorithms and uh and so forth could be socially a bit of a problem for the human race in in the future.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, I don't want to get too too much on that because it's gonna go on for ages.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: It could go on for ages, and it's probably you know, to me to me it's also I mean it's it's interesting in that you know people need to be wary of it, but you know, it's not the topic of what we're talking about.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I just got into that point.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: So sorry about that.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's move on.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's talk about your podcast, Landscape Photography World.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know where it came from and and the direction that you are hoping to take it.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so 2021.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um here in Sydney, we had a lockdown, and particularly my local government area had a lockdown where uh for 165 days I wasn't allowed to go more than five kilometres away from the front door.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: And where I live in western Sydney, five kilometers away from my door, there's sort of one park that's vaguely photogenic.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the sort of thing that I would rush out the door to take photos of.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: Other than that, it's pretty much suburbia, you know, it's um, you know, brick houses, red roofs, red tile roofs, yep.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and lots of um roads and uh, you know, oh you get the odd football park and whatever, you know.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: But seriously, I was struggling with my creativity because I couldn't go to the beach.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was uh over an hour away, you know, and well outside my five kilometer an hour, uh uh five kilometer area.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to find something that was gonna fill in my creative um sort of uh needs at that time because you know I was starting to run out of backlog to edit.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't really, I was I've still got plenty of backlog to edit, but uh I yeah, and and so it was I'd I'd listened to a number of podcasts in the years sort of leading up to that.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh things like um you know Matt Payne's uh F Stock Collaborate, uh Nick Page's landscape photography podcast, and a couple of others.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there was a couple of Australian ones there with the odds, Oscapers, yep.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a guy down in Melbourne whose name escapes me did uh probably about 20 episodes of a landscape photography podcast.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'd listen to that, and I was thinking to myself, well, I could do something like that.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how am I gonna structure it?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do I really want to sit there and talk and tell people about the photography that I'm not doing right now?
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not gonna work.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, there's probably a bunch of other people both here in Sydney but also uh around the world, and um it it's probably not a bad way of.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh introducing myself to a few people that I don't know as well.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, okay, well, what I'll make it about is interviewing interesting photographers and letting them tell their stories, giving them the space to, you know, sit down and have a long form chat as opposed to just a quick QA.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of scratched together some questions, and I the first episode I did a quick intro, um, about 25 minutes or something.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: Don't listen to that one, it's rubbish.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then got hold of a mate of mine who's not necessarily uh strictly landscape photographer.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: We've been out on a few shoes together and whatever.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's an ex-pro photographer, used to do weddings and parties and everything.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he now does motor uh motorsport photography.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yeah.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Gary Graham.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so he was he was my first interview.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was a way of okay, let's see how this works.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and from there it just sort of built, and I just kept reaching out to people, and I'm still reaching out to people, and uh keep saying yes.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I keep recording and keep uh keep talking to people about that passion of uh landscape photography.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um about a year in uh I ran uh an awards uh sort of competition, so got people to send their photos in.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've managed to um leverage a couple of the relationships I've built through through the podcast with uh getting some international as well as local uh people to do some judging uh along with us, um, and stumped up some money of of my own uh to put out as cash prizes um and hopefully recoup a bit from some of the entry fees.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh advertised it a bit, got uh roughly 800 odd entries of there.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cool.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, which wasn't too bad.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, did a book with it, gave out the prizes, and then started uh sort of promoting that to some uh people to act as sponsors so that I didn't have to carry the weight of all the the prize money and prizes and whatever again.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I've I've struggled to get that going uh to the level that I'd like.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a few sponsors that are sort of sitting in the background waiting for me to kick it off, and I've sort of kept them warm.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm after a couple more that are willing to put a little bit more in than the than they did uh before I kick it off again.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do plan to kick it off again at some point.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was hoping to do that this year, but it doesn't look like I'm gonna get the the sponsorship that I need.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if there's anybody out there that wants to help with that, yeah, more than happy to have a chat to them and uh see if we can get that going.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: How can they get in contact with you?
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can get in contact with me through my website.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it it has a contact form, and there's also, I think there might be a contact form on the Landscape Photography Worlds Awards uh website as well.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but basically, yeah, just use the email that's on there info at grantswindburnphotography.com.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cool.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they can get in get in touch with me.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um where it's going.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's pretty much more of the same.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've enhanced the the questions over time and added some, taken some out that I think you know people are probably bored hearing uh the answers to, um, or that I just haven't found interesting myself.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm I'm just reaching out to more and more people.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I guess trying to get a real balance of both people that have been in the industry from the industry for a bit, uh, as well as some people that are more at the entry level that are just starting out.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've managed to do that fairly well, and also trying to uh get the mix of uh males and females as balanced as I possibly can.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is a little bit harder sometimes.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it there are unfortunately um fewer female landscape photographers out there than there are males.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just trying to trying to dig out the ones that are are there uh and that are also willing to hop on a podcast and and have a chat.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have found a few people that have both you know both sexes that have been reticent to to talk, not necessarily to me, but just talk, you know, they're yeah but they don't you know they they don't feel confident enough in themselves to actually have a have a chat.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I must say I've I've I've hit that as well.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're just shy people and they're the introverts and and that's cool.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's no no uh how do you say there's no discrimination or anything, it's just they simply just don't feel comfortable and and um you always just leave it with them.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you do exactly the same with me as when you're ready if you if you want chat.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly right, yeah.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I've had people that have you know had events in their life that have sort of made me put them off for a little bit, you know.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've got got one that I uh was lining up to do back in April, but uh now that won't happen until November.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just you know balancing people's commitments and calendars and all the rest of that.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to be honest, that's the hardest part about it is uh not not finding people, but actually just scheduling, you know.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tell me about it.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um most of my days offer Monday through to Wednesday and and then maybe an occasional like eight o'clock finish or all that sort of stuff.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's always going around people's schedules, would be as is tricky, isn't it?
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I I've I've just absolutely loved the passion that these people have for their craft and the um you know the generosity that they've spent some time with me, you know, because I I can do anything up to probably an hour 45, and that's the longest episode.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so it's a it's a fair commitment.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to sit down and talk about yourself.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're not talking about themselves for the entire time, but you know, it's a it's kind of like what we're doing now, you know.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not used to talking for this long.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So oh, we're sitting at about an hour and ten minutes and uh and let them ramble on and and then dig into into what they're saying.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's it's been an absolute joy to produce.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's been you know um wonderful in terms of building a network of people that you know I I can sometimes call on for advice or you know, ask a question about, you know, I was uh talking to a guy that I'd interviewed over in the UK um about some spots over there.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he he gave us a few pointers about how to how to get to them.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're just not you know, yes, you can use Google Maps, but there's not necessarily good guidance on okay, what you need to do is go here, go there, and that's that'll get you into the right spot, you know.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, England can be a bit tricky getting a getting around in some of those uh lake district areas.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sludgy Yeah, definitely.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like you're you you're really heavy into the community, and and that's what this uh your podcast does as well.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It really serves a good uh backbone for the community, the greater uh creative community as well.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and to be honest, I've I've really enjoyed being being a part of that community and you know, promoting other people's work gives me as much joy as somebody saying, Hey, I like what you do, you know.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: It it it it really is a a pleasure to pr produce and present something that people enjoy listening to.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've I've got to say I've been you know, touch wood, really lucky that there's been very little in the way of negative feedback, you know.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I think I I I misspelt something that I put up onto YouTube or whatever, so there's there's really been easy fix too.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, that that that's really been the the the the level of negative feedback that I've got.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everything else has been really positive.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's also I think a credit to the people that I've had on that they're they're really engaging mostly and you know, really enjoyable to to have a listen to.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about necessarily grabbing the the the big names that have been you know on YouTube and all the rest of that sort of thing, and you know, the the the prize winners of you know major major competitions and whatever.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's as I said, getting that balance right between the people that are experienced and can can have a lot of input into you know uh the conversations around how they have developed their careers and so forth, but also people that are just starting out and uh are new to the game or newer to the game, um, but still have a voice and something to say about what uh what they're doing and what they hope for for their future.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Landscape photography world.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, as in the name, how have you gotten around of having like because you've had a couple of like street photographers on, um I think you just had a videographer.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do you um determine on whether or not they fit with your brand?
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I'm not not having a go, I just a general general question.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I look at their stuff, do they do landscapes of any sort?
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I include street photography where it's sort of fa let's let's say the the the the street portraits, yep.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: What I call a street portrait, yeah, the the blake with the umbrella, yeah, and it's a focus that yeah if it's focused on the person, then I I tend not to want to talk to them.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, I get so yep.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: If 99.9% of their work is focused on the people in the street, then that street photographer is not somebody that I'm I'm gonna incorporate into the conversation.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um if their focus is more on the architecture or the landscape, well it's that to me is landscape photography, or or or if it's a mix.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had Sandra Dan on because she does uh digital artistic landscapes.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, some of them complete fantasy.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: But in some of the work, she's actually used her own landscape photography.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how she honed her craft in the first place.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was through landscape photography.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you you mentioned the videographer that um one I've I've spoken to a few of those, but again, if they've got a body of work that actually has some landscape photography in it, uh my most recent episode uh at least uh went out yesterday, Martine Paret from Western Australia.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's you know fantastic photographer, but also well known for a journalistic effort and uh you know work over in Africa and whatever.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she does these amazing era landscapes.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's to me, I I take a very broad brush to the term landscape.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if there's landscape in their work, then I'll I I want to have a chat to them.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's why you had a chat with me because I'm like, mine's far from landscape.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's just good to know.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Even then, even those sort of that that fine art long exposure um stuff, you know, there's yourself, there's uh Graeme Gordon, uh Stefan uh Thomas, you know, you know, they're they're three Sydney photographers that I know are in that sort of genre.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but what you're doing is creating a a representation of a landscape, you know, whether it's you know, some people might call it architecture photography, but what is architecture?
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a building that is where it's not hanging in the sky, it's it's on on a chunk of land, you know.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and whether that's you know, coastal, urban, rural, again, I don't care.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I take a very, very broad brush to it, and it it's really about the work, the body work that they've got.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's key to me.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, if I look and it looks like it's mostly snapshotty sort of stuff, I'm less likely to less inclined to want to talk to them.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm wanting to talk to somebody that's probably had a bit of a think about where they are in their career and also where they see their work in terms of its artistic expression for them.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because to me, that's that's actually one of the most interesting things is delving into people's artistic passion.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where did that come from?
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Why do they, you know, why do they create the way that they do?
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that made them the photographer that they are?
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so to me, they're they're the bits that I I want to draw out in the podcast and get people talking about because to me they're the most interesting parts, you know.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_00: You you probably noticed I don't talk a lot about gear in the in the podcast at all.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's because I find gear boring.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there's already there's also that's so much information out there about gear that you can find out.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it all tends to be the same um when you talk about gear.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are some people that have uh used gear in certain ways, and that's stuff you can bring out.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when you talk about gear, it all becomes the same.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like this everyone uses pretty much the same gear, so there's no point in talking about it because we all know about it.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And technique is where it's at.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like talking to a carpenter about his hammer, you know.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_00: What sort of is it you got a SIP chrome or you got a, you know?
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they'll talk ear off about it too.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who cares?
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but one thing I what are you making with it about it?
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what I'm interested in.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and why do you make it that way?
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I really enjoy do about your podcast is that you don't discriminate against the people um in terms of their position in the industry.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that and that's what I draw for the most from it.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, and I'm sure you're the same as um mindset as what I am, and that you can gain knowledge from anybody, no matter their skill or their advantage or the position in the industry.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, I've learned just as much from some of the you know ininverted commas beginners, yeah, as I have from some of the bigger names that have been out there in the industry for you know many, many years.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, to me, uh again, it's about why they do what they do.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the intent.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the intent behind what they're doing is the the bit that I I'm really keen to draw on.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've learned it's one of the things that I've really enjoyed about doing the the podcast is how much I've actually learned and how much that's influenced my own work to a certain degree.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see a change in my own work from 2021 when I started to now, uh, in terms of looking at the world differently, looking at some of the subjects that I'm trying to take shots of, and you know, saying, well, so and so was talking about this in this way.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I probably should take a look at it from that that perspective and and think about it in that perspective as opposed to what I normally might do, you know.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so to me, changing it up in my own work is you know as much a product of uh the the work that I've done in the podcast as as anything.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've done a great job with your podcast and and I do listen to it as well.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you were one of the talking pieces for when I first started with uh Carl originally.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um even though we had grand plans like way before and did it, but just never really um pursued it.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I do thank you.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like great, great effort on it, mate.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um I I I can't wait to listen to some more episodes along the way and who see who you can get as well.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there's there's some interesting ones coming up.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I won't I won't spoil it yet, but there are some interesting ones coming up, and I've uh I've I've got one on Friday that should be quite interesting uh this week.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So well tomorrow, isn't it?
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so tomorrow.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a recording and I've got another couple next week.
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um one local, one overseas, and then I've uh I've started again.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've got back from taking a taking a break on uh on recording.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So what what what I do you know for for those that might be interested, when I when I go away, I don't sit there trying to do recordings while I'm away.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um a, it's too much hassle, and B, I'm I'm actually on holiday.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where your backlog comes in handy.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's right.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I build a backlog, yeah, and I've uh I've actually got uh still about four or five weeks out of that backlog that I built.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're sitting there just waiting to pop up uh in the next three or four weeks.
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so the one I'm recording tomorrow that'll come out in a few more weeks after that and so on.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's just it is it's about you know putting the work in early, you know, that way you can go away, enjoy yourself, not think about it for a bit.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So right now I'm just gearing back up and to building a another backlog for the next time I go away, wherever that happens to be.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Away from podcasting and looking into your photography, what have you got coming up that you'd like to talk about?
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because we were talking off air that there's something that you're bringing out shortly, or you're announcing shortly.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got a calendar coming up.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh by the time that goes out, I'm hoping it should actually be live and ready to go.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so basically I did a did a calendar last year for the first time and uh picked 12 images, uh, put it together in a in a calendar, got them printed up, and uh then stuck them on the website and hoped for the best and managed to sell out, which was nice.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then uh I I I kept one copy for my wall.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you didn't write anything in it.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, gonna gonna wash, rinse, repeat, do and do another one.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's another another 12 images there.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, if anyone is looking for a calendar that uh has a bunch of hopefully nice shots in it, hit me up.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and if if the you have announced that by the time I release this or before I release the podcast, what I'll do is I'll throw a link to that in your in the show notes as well.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it does come out after, I'll still I'll re-edit the thing, put it in the show notes for you.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no worries.
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I guess one of the one of the other things is I'm actually uh I'm I mentioned a bit of the corporate work, so I'm always open to anyone that's out there that's looking for the photographer to come and either uh you know shoot their um their real estate or their corporate event, or you know, could be automotive, could be aviation.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Again, if you have a look at the commercial section on the website, you'll see samples of some of the stuff that I've done there.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um travel agencies, etc.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hit me up.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm always available and uh always keen to you know to pick up a a bit of extra cash somewhere from someone.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what photography is about.
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the hustle, isn't it?
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find your work uh to get it one in to get in contact with you and purchase prints from you?
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no worries.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_00: The best place is my website, grantswindow and photography.com.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can also also find me on uh Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook.
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube is mostly the podcast uh with a mixture of other stuff that I've put in there.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_00: I might might do the odd short or two.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, I'll I I post most regularly to um Twitter, uh, Facebook, Instagram, uh Bureau Threads, um, and also on Blue Sky.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure why, because there's bugger all people there, but you know it it's growing and uh it's it's it's a little bit interesting.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just just having a look at uh bit of a dabble there.
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's uh a nicer community than uh some of the bits of uh of Twitter or X are.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um Twitter I I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with, but I'd one one thing I have managed to do there is I've actually managed to hone the feed into stuff that I want to see.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if there's any advice that I'd give anyone that's having struggles with their social media, uh have a look at who you're following and have a good think about why you're following them.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're following, you know, certain politicians or whatever because they annoy you um and you don't want to be annoyed anymore, stop following them.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just politicians, other people, you know, just yeah, anyone out there that uh bugs you, well, stop following them.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: You won't see their crap anymore.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is some good advice there to curate your feed to see what you want to do, otherwise you're gonna get bogged down.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well I I made a decision uh a few years ago to actually unfollow a whole bunch of people and uh also use a couple of tools to find uh inactive followers for myself.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually, you know, I I don't worry anymore about how many people I've got following me.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I've what I've actually found is that if I dump the unengaged or you know people that aren't using the the platform anymore, that it actually has improved my feed in in a lot of ways because I'm I'm just not saying stuff that I don't want.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I do something similar, but every time someone like will follow my work, like the likes you can't, it's too hard to control sometimes.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_01: But someone when they follow, because they trickle in, I'll go onto their site and see whether or not they're a bot or who they are or whatever, and just remove them, block them.
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, like you said, it can actually be detrimental to your feed and to your growth as a as an artist on social media.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So for for me, it's it's an important part of what I do is you know, taking the time to get rid of the bits you don't need.
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, mate.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's some great advice, and it was a good conversation, man.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm glad to have learned a little bit more about you as a photographer and as a person, and it's been a pleasure having you on the show.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much.
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's been wonderful uh being a part of your podcast and uh being on the other side of the microphone for for once.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_00: How did you feel?
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was pretty good.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't mind.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Once you get going, it's pretty good.
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's never too much.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're here for.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we live we do podcasting.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we hear every little bit that ticks over in our minds.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right, mate, thank you.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And until next time, keep reframing, keep creating.