Latest / Host Planet: Airbnb, Holiday Let, and Vacation Rental Insights / Welsh Holiday Let Owners Are Giving Up

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Welsh Holiday Let Owners Are Giving Up · Host Planet: Airbnb, Holiday Let, and Vacation Rental Insights

0:00
They're literally at their wits end so they want to give up,
0:03
they want to sell, but of course nobody's buying holiday left
0:06
properties in Wales at the moment. 47% of those who have
0:10
reverted to council tax plus premium are now either making
0:14
new profit or a loss. That's nearly half.
0:17
That's pretty bad. There's only one solution to
0:20
this. 182 is too high. Is the Welsh Government ruining
0:24
the country's holiday Let's sector?
0:27
What is the impact of the 182 day threshold and what do
0:32
operators need to tell the government during this vital
0:35
consultation period? Nikki Williamson from Pasca UK's
0:39
Wales branch is the special guest on today's House Planet
0:42
podcast. Nikki, thank you for joining us
0:49
on the Host Planet podcast. Let's start by explaining the
0:54
182 day threshold in Wales. Just explain to us what this is
0:59
all about. OK.
1:01
So the 182 day threshold is it's a new piece of legislation which
1:06
came in effective April 2023. Prior to that a business, a self
1:13
catering business needed to be available for 140 days and let
1:20
for 70 days and the new piece of legislation increased those
1:25
numbers. So they have to be available for
1:27
252 days and they have to be let for 182 days.
1:33
So 182 days, now this is basically half the year, isn't
1:37
it exactly 6 months? And we should probably say at
1:40
this point that in the UK, the days and rules are different
1:44
depending on where you are. It's different in Wales, it's
1:47
different in England, It might even be different in Scotland as
1:50
well. I know I've got a couple of
1:51
properties in England and I think we've got to be let for
1:54
104. If that's right off the top of
1:56
my head, you probably know the numbers better than me.
1:58
So there's a big difference between just over 100 compared
2:02
to 100 and in 82. So talk us through the impact of
2:06
this on operators in Wales. OK, so actually in England it's
2:11
still 70. So it hasn't increased from it
2:15
used to be the same as Wales and Wales has now increased theirs.
2:19
So they've increased it by 2 1/2 times.
2:22
So it's pretty significant. So it, yeah, it's, it's been
2:28
pretty brutal, to be honest. We talk about half a year.
2:32
I actually get very frustrated when people talk about half a
2:36
year being being able to operate for half a year, because that
2:39
assumes that you're you're only a business when you've got
2:44
guests in. And we all know that every
2:46
business needs an awful lot of things doing behind the scenes
2:49
in order to be ready. So it's a bit like saying a
2:51
primary school is not a school and it's not a business unless
2:55
it's got kids in the classrooms. So about half a year is, yeah,
3:03
is is a term that's used, but it's not as simple as that
3:08
because trends have changed. So whereas, I don't know, pre
3:13
COVID people used to book for seven nights, 14 nights.
3:17
They used to book in in week bookings.
3:20
Now what happens is they book late and they probably book for
3:24
three nights, maybe four nights. So even if you think about it in
3:27
terms of weeks, it's a lot less than it used to be.
3:31
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4:49
Do you have any statistics that you can share in relation to
4:53
especially full time operators? I'm thinking here are full time
4:57
operators really struggling to get to 182?
5:00
Do we know the percentage of people who just who just can't
5:03
really achieve it? Yeah, we in our last, it's about
5:07
a half, a half cannot achieve it and that's whoever you listen
5:13
to. So if you listen to Welsh
5:14
Government, they'll tell you it's 60%, but that that's not a
5:17
pure figure. But in, according to all our
5:20
surveys, it's, it's about 1/2. Some surveys will tell you it's
5:27
less than that. But it it, it, I mean, even if
5:31
you took the Welsh Government figure of 60% and making it,
5:35
that means 40% of businesses are failing and that's not a good
5:39
statistic. So with 40% of businesses
5:42
failing, I mean, what's, what's the impact specifically on those
5:45
businesses If you can't operate, you can't meet the 182 day
5:50
minimum, what happens? So the 182 minimum is to allow
5:55
you to access business rates. So you would pay as a business,
6:00
you would pay business rates. If you fail to meet the 182 then
6:04
you get reverted to council tax. So it's non domestic, non
6:10
domestic to domestic. And then what happens is there
6:13
is an additional premium added. So the premiums in Wales can be
6:20
up to 300% of council tax. So basically that means you're
6:25
you're potentially paying up to 400% council tax.
6:29
And real term figures then what are we talking like say if I
6:33
don't know, let's say you've got a 2 bedroom holiday let
6:37
property, what would you expect to pay in council tax if you
6:41
can't meet the 182 days? So the most common council tax
6:46
premium is 150% and that's in in most of the sort of hotspot
6:52
counties, local authorities. To give you an example of a 2
6:57
bed near to where I live, you would probably pay about 2000 if
7:03
you were paying normal council tax.
7:05
You would pay just short of 6 if you were paying council tax plus
7:09
a premium. Now if you put that into real
7:11
terms, the average revenue of A2 bed property is around 20,000.
7:19
That's revenue. That's not profit.
7:21
Once you've taken away all your costs, your laundry, your
7:23
cleaning, your gardening, your utilities, your Commission to
7:28
your agency, all of those things.
7:29
Once you take those away, you might make 3000.
7:33
If you're a bit leaner, you might make 5000.
7:35
So if you're paying a council tax premium of 6000, that's
7:39
taken away any profit that you may have had.
7:42
And what we're hearing in our latest survey is that I think
7:47
it's 47% of those who have reverted to council tax plus
7:51
premium are now either making new profit or a loss.
7:56
That's nearly half. That's pretty bad.
7:59
So basically viable. Are those people where it is
8:03
unviable? Are they giving up?
8:04
What? What are they telling you?
8:06
Yeah, they're trying to give up there, to be honest.
8:09
There's a there's a mental health crisis out there.
8:11
People are absolutely at their wits end.
8:14
What's happening is people are getting council tax bills that
8:16
they can't pay at the moment. They're getting council tax
8:19
bills plus premiums backdated for three years.
8:24
So these are bills in the 10s of thousands of pounds and they
8:28
can't pay them and they're, they're literally at their wit's
8:32
end. So they want to give up, they
8:34
want to sell. But of course nobody's buying
8:37
holiday left properties in Wales at the moment.
8:39
So, so they're trapped. And some people that we, we used
8:45
to hear an awful lot about, I'm having sleepless nights about
8:48
this. That has now that was a year
8:51
ago, a year on sleepless nights has turned into much worse.
8:55
And people are just beside themselves and they can't get
8:57
out. And then if you've got, if
9:00
you're in a county such as Gwynedd, where they've now
9:02
introduced Article 4, that puts even more restriction.
9:05
So that restricts on who they can sell to and how and what
9:09
purpose they can sell their properties for.
9:11
So yeah, people are people are at their wits end, quite
9:14
frankly. And what is past doing to help?
9:20
What are you trying to do in terms of lobbying and and
9:24
talking to the Welsh politicians and the Welsh Government?
9:27
I mean, ideally, what would you like to see happen?
9:30
There's only one solution to this. 182 is too high, so there
9:35
are many, many things that are being banded about.
9:38
The consultation talks about different things at the moment,
9:42
but the only way to solve this problem is to lower 182.
9:46
It's simply too high. Lower 182 and all those a lot of
9:50
the problems associated will go away.
9:53
Where should it be lowered to? I mean, ideally as operators
9:58
we're probably going to say, well, as low as possible.
10:00
I mean, you know, in the past there you were saying it was 70
10:03
days. You've got to be operational
10:04
for. You would imagine the
10:06
government, the Welsh Government are not going to go back to what
10:08
it was previously. Where do you think is a
10:10
reasonable number? So that's the burning question,
10:13
isn't it? And that's the question that is
10:16
always asked. So if you go back to the
10:18
original consultation, the majority, there were eight
10:23
people I believe that said 182. So that gives you, that gives
10:29
you an idea that it's not right. Everyone else was lower than
10:34
that. The original FHL tax allowance
10:38
was 1/05, so that would be a a sensible suggestion in my
10:44
opinion. But the reality is, if you, if
10:47
you actually did a proper consultation, if you did a
10:50
proper impact assessment, that would give you the number, that
10:55
would tell you what the number should be.
10:58
So the suggestion being there then that there really hasn't
11:00
been a proper impact assessment of what's happening in, in terms
11:04
of the the Welsh holiday that market.
11:07
So I mean has, has nothing really been done previously?
11:10
Are we seeing kind of the same old issue here with policy
11:13
making that often the lawmakers don't really have the right data
11:17
at their fingertips? They certainly don't have the
11:19
right data. I mean you'll see that with
11:22
other policy making decisions. So for example, the the tourism
11:28
levy that is based on there being their impact assessment
11:33
for the tourism levy is that it's based on there being
11:35
between 16,000 and wait for it 55,000 holiday let businesses in
11:43
Wales. So that's not a a number, that's
11:48
not a range that I would ever make a business decision on.
11:53
So there is there is a huge lack of data.
11:55
There is an easy solution to that.
11:57
We have long been calling for statutory registration, so
12:01
statutory registration, done well, would give the data that
12:08
they need in order to be able to make good decisions.
12:11
What does statutory registration done well look like do you
12:15
think? So statutory registration done
12:18
well is something that is simple and straightforward, doesn't
12:25
become a burden, but also ask some simple compliance checks
12:33
and also requires you to upload documents which which to be
12:41
honest, these are documents that you would normally have.
12:43
So if you if you advertise your holiday lap business with an
12:47
agency, you would be asked for fire risk assessment, gas safety
12:51
certificate, public liability insurance certificate.
12:57
So those are the things that you would be asked for anyway.
13:01
And so statutory registration done well would require an
13:04
upload of those that would then create a level playing field.
13:10
It would create a self a safe environment and it would it
13:14
would ensure that you have the correct standard of safety for
13:17
the consumers and it would give the data that they need.
13:22
Data, Well, yeah, we, we, we all need the right data, don't we?
13:27
Continuing on the data theme then, I mean what's the impact
13:31
here in terms of visitor numbers and the wider tourism industry
13:36
in Wales if we continue to see a drop off in the number of
13:40
holiday let's in the country? Well, the holiday let's in Wales
13:45
are the bedstock. So people want to come to
13:50
traditional Welsh homes, they want to be self-sufficient.
13:55
But the reality is that there aren't an awful lot of hotels.
13:57
So there aren't there aren't a lot of options.
13:59
I mean, in some in some counties, I mean take care of
14:03
Dean, for example, there's hardly any hotels there.
14:06
So what's the option? So where can they go?
14:09
Where can they stay if if the holiday let numbers are going
14:14
down, but the reality is the visitor numbers are going down
14:17
as well. So between 2022 and 2024, the
14:23
overnight visitor numbers have gone down by 29%.
14:28
So and that that's a Welsh Government number, That's the
14:31
number that Welsh government are publishing.
14:33
So, and, and a lot of that is being seen by self catering
14:39
operators. So the latest wave report that
14:43
they, the tourism barometer that they publish basically said that
14:49
47% of self catering businesses are are seeing less numbers, but
14:54
then that extends to attractions.
14:58
So visitors to attractions are down some as many as much as
15:03
30%. So it's the whole visitor
15:06
economy really that that's feeling it.
15:09
We mentioned the the consultation a little bit
15:12
earlier and this is ongoing now so people can can respond to
15:17
this. The consultation is proposing
15:20
averaging 182 days over two to three years and counting up to
15:25
14 charity nights. And it seems to me like the last
15:28
thing operators need is, is, is to be contributing to charity
15:32
nights at the moment. But in in practical terms, do
15:36
you think these tweaks will materially help operators or is
15:40
it just a bit of token nonsense really that's not going to make
15:43
much difference? Obviously we appreciate the fact
15:46
that they are consulting on it so that, but it's put it back in
15:50
the spotlight and it also acknowledges the fact that it
15:55
does need to be, there are flaws in the policy and it does need
16:00
to be addressed. We're surprised by what came out
16:06
in the consultation. We're concerned by what came out
16:10
in the consultation. But we also think that this is
16:13
an opportunity to feedback on all points.
16:16
And that was made pretty clear actually in there was just there
16:21
was a question to Mark Drakeford in the Senate this week.
16:24
And he made it very clear that actually you should be
16:28
responding on all aspects of the of the policy, not just those,
16:32
those tweaks or those token gestures, as he mentioned.
16:36
But to look at them specifically, people are already
16:40
suffering from 182 being such a Cliff edge.
16:45
So if you, if you make 182 nights, you're not a business.
16:50
If you make 182 nights, you are. And it's such a Cliff edge.
16:54
And even the ones that do make it, they're not making it easily
17:00
and they're doing everything they can to make it.
17:02
They're pulling out every trick in the book.
17:06
And the ones that aren't making it there, it's even worse
17:11
because they're not even getting there.
17:13
So if you have A and so much of it is completely out of their
17:17
control. So if you have a, if you have a
17:20
bad weather summer, if it rains all summer then and if it rains
17:25
all summer in year 1, then you're already behind for year
17:29
2. So there's even more pressure
17:32
and that it just creates more pressure over a three-year
17:35
period. So I appreciate what they're
17:38
trying to do, but it it, it's going to be very difficult.
17:41
It's it, I think it's going to make that mental health aspect
17:44
even worse. And if and if the visitor
17:46
numbers continue with the same trend that they're displaying at
17:50
the moment, then that's really not going to help.
17:54
And, and the point about charity weeks, this was something, it's
18:00
great. It's something that holiday let
18:04
owners have have done a lot of in the past and it's great that
18:08
they're going to now acknowledge that it should be included.
18:11
But if we're looking for exemptions, there's so many that
18:15
should be before that. So the the local authorities
18:20
already have the discretion to be able to use their discretion
18:26
basically, but they're not. So we've done 2 Freedom of
18:31
Information requests. We've had minimal responses that
18:36
are showing any sort of discretion at all.
18:38
So we did one in 23, one in 24. And I think there were two local
18:42
authorities that declared that they were doing something.
18:45
One was doing a payment plan and one was giving a year's grace
18:48
actually on the premium. So they should be doing it
18:54
anyway. So adding charitable weeks is
19:01
not is not really going to cut the mustard.
19:03
We've got some pretty horrible experiences going on out there.
19:07
So we've got people I can think of a member, his wife has
19:13
terminal cancer. He is spending too much of his
19:18
time worrying about whether he's making 182.
19:22
And what makes it even worse is she's worrying about him
19:25
worrying about 182. So there's there's some pretty
19:28
horrible experiences out there and then they're not that
19:33
discretion is not being applied. So yeah, it'd be lovely to do
19:36
the charitable donations, but I'm not sure that's really high
19:41
on the priority list. I've got another member who he
19:44
had to shut for a certain amount of time because he wanted to go
19:49
as carbon 0 as he could. He wanted to get to net zero.
19:52
So he spent a lot of time renovating and putting in new
19:56
systems and as a result he only made 111 nights.
20:02
As a result, he then got reverted back to council tax
20:05
plus premiums and got a huge bill.
20:07
So it it doesn't seem to fit with it doesn't fit with the
20:12
overall objectives. You mentioned there there that
20:14
some operators are using every trick in the book to get to 182
20:21
and and beyond. What are they being forced to do
20:25
to reach the threshold? There, I mean, you've got to
20:28
remember that these people, the what, what are our statistics,
20:32
the, the majority of holiday let owners are Welsh.
20:39
So half of them live within 10 miles and 5050% I think live
20:45
next door. And then I, I need to check
20:48
those numbers for you. But the majority of them are
20:53
Welsh residents. And what, what I mean by every
21:00
trick in the book is that they're, they're, they're
21:02
meeting 182 at any cost. And any cost might mean their
21:06
health, might mean financial, but they're all discounting.
21:11
So 86% are discounting in order to get to 182.
21:15
Now that that then has a knock on effect on everyone.
21:18
So if you can get a really cheap deal in a holiday lap, then
21:22
you're not going to stay in a hotel and you and that's driving
21:25
the hotel prices down. So it it's affecting everybody.
21:29
What's your message to Welsh operators in relation to the
21:34
consultation? What do they need to be doing
21:37
and and saying to the Welsh Government?
21:39
They need to take it seriously as a consultation.
21:43
I'm pretty sure that there will be an awful lot of data that
21:46
comes into this consultation and it won't be restricted to those,
21:50
those 3 aspects that they're consulting on.
21:54
The the message is very, very clear. 182 is too high.
22:00
Way too high. We mentioned then there's a talk
22:04
of a a grace period before properties revert to council
22:08
tax. What do you think?
22:11
The minimum grace period and process would be fair and
22:15
workable of course, for councils, especially when we
22:17
consider the the valuation office backlog.
22:22
I think what would be fair is to use the discretion appropriately
22:28
that they already have. So you can't put, you can't put
22:32
a time limit on the chap I told you about whose wife's got
22:36
terminal cancer. You just can't do that, I think.
22:40
I think the unfortunate thing is that the local authority
22:43
discretion is discretionary. I think if it was mandatory then
22:49
it would we would see it happening more often to be
22:52
honest. If you if you've got 182, if
22:55
you've got the level right, you wouldn't need to have the grace
22:59
period. In terms of the intentions of
23:03
the Welsh Government, what were the intentions of the Welsh
23:06
Government when they introduced 182 and do you think they're
23:10
achieving those intentions? So our understanding is that the
23:15
intention was to bring back housing stock into the housing
23:19
market for local families, local local people.
23:24
We're not seeing much evidence of that.
23:28
They're they're hitting the wrong people.
23:32
So the sort of expense you've got, you've got second homes,
23:37
you've got holiday lap businesses and you've got
23:39
everything in between. So your second homes, if
23:44
they're, if they're being sold, they're never going to be bought
23:46
by young local families. They're just completely out of
23:50
their out of their range. So what we're seeing is that the
23:55
the houses that are coming back onto the market are either just
23:59
sitting there or they're being recycled into other second home
24:04
owners. The other thing that we're
24:07
seeing is because of the way they're priced, they're not,
24:11
they're not access entry housing, they're not affordable.
24:18
So the, what we're seeing is that the people that can afford
24:20
them tend to be retirees from out of the area who've
24:24
downsized. And that doesn't really help
24:28
anybody because they're probably, they're probably
24:31
retired, they're probably not particularly economically
24:34
active. And as they get older, they're
24:37
just going to draw on the, on the community as opposed to
24:42
really add to the community. Whereas a, a holiday let
24:47
business brings people in all the time.
24:49
They make recommendations of pubs, of restaurants, of cafes.
24:53
They, they're, they're there on the High Street, they're
24:56
visiting attractions and they're bringing money in.
24:59
And as well as that you're seeing they all the maintenance,
25:04
all the laundry, all the cleaning, the gardening,
25:11
they're, they're employing local people, they're part of their
25:14
own community. They're employing local people.
25:17
I heard about a building company the other day who quite a, a
25:22
reasonable sized building company employs 50 people
25:25
directly. And he's really worried now
25:29
because the the drop in business that means that he might have to
25:33
lay off some of his team. And those are the sorts of
25:37
effects that we're seeing now. So it's, it's not, it's not
25:41
protecting the communities as they intended.
25:44
It's it's having the opposite effect.
25:46
How might the political landscape in Wales change things
25:51
over the next few years? And if you can, you know, what
25:55
are the kind of conversations that you've been having with the
25:57
different political parties about 182.
26:02
We've had lots of, we've had lots of conversations with all
26:05
political parties and the one thing that comes out in all of
26:09
my conversations when I'm speaking to them, 101 and this
26:13
is every party, is that 182 is too high.
26:19
Everybody recognises it, but when speaking formally, it
26:24
doesn't always get translated. What I would like to do is just
26:28
give everybody a break, just pause all of the legislation.
26:33
We've got 22 pieces of legislation that are hitting
26:37
self catering owners at the moment, 22 and if you had any
26:42
one of those 22 would have an impact.
26:45
So what we really need to do is get statutory registration done
26:50
properly so we know what, we know what the sector looks like,
26:55
then pause, then agree on how they move forward with policy
27:01
and legislation. And really what needs to happen
27:06
is tourism in Wales needs a boost.
27:08
If you think back, tourism and agriculture are the, they're the
27:13
two consistent, They're the two consistent of Wales, aren't
27:18
they? They're, they're always there.
27:20
And if you damage farming and you damage tourism, what have
27:22
you got left? So tourism needs to be
27:26
celebrated. And sometimes you just, you just
27:29
need to drive around Wales and just remind yourself of how
27:33
amazing it is. So, So, yeah, I think the
27:37
legislation needs to reflect that.
27:39
I think we need, we need some policies that celebrate tourism
27:44
in Wales, that push tourism in Wales.
27:47
The Croso the the actual genuine Croso, the genuine welcome of
27:52
Welsh people. That's what our members have
27:54
been doing for decades, that's what they love doing, and sadly,
27:58
182's just taken that joy away. Let's imagine Mark Drayford is
28:04
in front of us right now. What would your message be to
28:07
him? My message to Mark Drakeford
28:09
would be to really listen. Listen to what the sector have
28:14
been saying to him, look at the data that we've putting in, been
28:17
putting in front of him and recognize the assets that Wales
28:23
has and celebrate those assets. And actually read every comment
28:27
that comes in in the consultation because that will
28:30
tell you that 182 is not working. 182 not working and a
28:35
lot of other challenges, but let's end on a positive note.
28:39
Tell us why self catering holiday letting is great in
28:44
Wales and it does have a bright future.
28:47
Because it's made-up of thousands of micro businesses
28:54
who absolutely love Wales, absolutely celebrate the
28:58
heritage, the culture, the language and it's that pride
29:03
that brings people back year on year.
29:05
I've got members who have been doing it for decades. 6 years,
29:09
I've got 1 member who's been, she's in her 90s and she takes
29:13
such pride in her cottage. And it's all of those thousands
29:20
actually, of people who are, who are bringing people back to
29:24
Wales for everything. I mean, I'm just looking out the
29:27
window here. The sun's shining, it's blue
29:31
skies. I can see the mountains.
29:33
I can see, I can't quite see the sea, but I can nearly see the
29:37
sea and take a little drive from here and within a 5 minute drive
29:43
you can see 5 castles. It's it's like nowhere else.
29:50
It's an absolutely magical nation and we should be really
29:55
celebrating that because it's got so much to offer.
29:59
Absolutely gorgeous country, magical place like Nikki says.
30:04
So do yourself a favour and also do the Welsh tourism industry a
30:07
favour as well. Book yourself your next holiday
30:10
in Wales Nikki. Just before you go, where can
30:14
people find out more information about PASK and just explain to
30:18
us how PASK are helping and and lobbying in relation to this
30:22
situation? So Pask, we're a very small
30:26
team, but we we're all very passionate.
30:30
We're all operators. So we all do it ourselves.
30:32
So we get it, we understand it and all of us are very dedicated
30:41
to what we do. So you can find more about, I
30:45
mean, if you look at our our website, you'll find more about
30:48
it. But one of the things that we do
30:50
is we do a weekly newsletter. That weekly newsletter is
30:54
crammed with information. And that will what we what we
31:00
try and do with that is we, we do the thinking for you.
31:03
So if it's not in the newsletter, it's not something
31:05
you have to worry about this week.
31:08
But yeah, we're, we're a membership organization.
31:11
We have about 500 individual members in Wales.
31:15
We also have a couple of the big agencies, which means that we're
31:22
able to. So our, our reach is probably in
31:25
excess of 10,000 in, in Wales. And that's because of we, we
31:31
work with Sykes, we work with travel chapter and they're part
31:34
of our part of our membership base.
31:38
So we lobby very hard and so the the big pieces that we do, it's
31:45
the advocacy stuff, but it's also the supporting our members.
31:48
So at the moment we have hundreds of members that are
31:53
suffering because of council tax premiums and backdated council
31:56
tax premiums. And there's a lot that we can do
31:59
to to help people with that. So you never need to feel like
32:03
you're on your own. Task doing a lot of fantastic
32:07
work and we'll put the link to their websites in the show
32:10
notes. Nikki, thank you so much for
32:12
joining us on the show and for explaining everything that's
32:15
going on in Wales. Thank you.
32:18
Can I do one last shout out? Of course.
32:21
Go for it. So we're able to do, we do have
32:26
some successes. We work very hard on behalf of
32:28
the the members and the sector, but there's one group of people
32:33
that I'd really like to do a shout out.
32:35
So we have some fantastic members.
32:38
A lot of what we do benefits the whole sector, but it's our
32:43
members that pay for it. And it's it's them that put
32:48
their hand in their hands, in their pockets and put their
32:50
money where their mouth is. So my big shout out actually is
32:54
to our is to our members and our agency members who and who do
32:58
that for us. Great to chat to Nikki
33:00
Williamson there from Pasca UK's Wales branch.
33:03
If you're a Welsh operator, make sure you take part in that
33:05
government consultation. All right, that's it for today's
33:08
show. Remember, this podcast is
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33:50
Until next time, happy hosting. Yeah.