Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Cult arrests, Slender Man guilty plea & submarine murder mystery

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Cult arrests, Slender Man guilty plea & submarine murder mystery · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. There are now eight members of
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Speaker 1: a religious paramilitary sect under arrest in civil accounty, the
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Speaker 1: center of multiple child of his investigations. According to court documents,
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Speaker 1: former members of the groups say they were taught to
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Speaker 1: take the children into hiding if police ever showed up
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Speaker 1: at the commune. During that raid, law enforcement found eleven children,
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Speaker 1: many without BERTH certificates. One of the group's leaders, Deborah Green,
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Speaker 1: and her son in law, Peter Green, were arrested for
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Speaker 1: the sexual assault of the same five year old girl.
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Speaker 1: Stacy Miller's accused of not taking her twelve year old
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Speaker 1: son to the doctor. He eventually died of the flu
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Speaker 1: and the children are being questioned right now by an
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Speaker 1: FBI investigator. A military style Christian sect leader. Let me
0:54
Speaker 1: rephrase that, a military style so called Christian sect leader
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Speaker 1: is charged in a massive child sex abuse case. For
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Speaker 1: I remembers say they have been trying to expose it
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Speaker 1: for years, but nobody would listen. And it's happening right
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Speaker 1: in our backyard, in our country. A military style so
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Speaker 1: called Christian sect, massive child abuse, massive child sex abuse
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Speaker 1: where people have been trying to report it for years
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Speaker 1: and no one would do anything. Well, we're gonna do
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Speaker 1: something right now. This is crime stories. I mean, see Grace,
1:40
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. When I read about
1:43
Speaker 1: an incident like this, I think maybe of um Jim
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Speaker 1: Jones on some far away island that I know very
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Speaker 1: little about, where people assume a bunch of kuks decided
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Speaker 1: to kill themselves under duress from some cult leader. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: it's easy to think about it that way. Easy er
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Speaker 1: to think about it because it's not you, it's not
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Speaker 1: your sister, it's not your daughter. It's easier to think
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Speaker 1: about it like that because it seems far away and
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Speaker 1: distant and completely disconnected to anything about you and your family. Well,
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Speaker 1: this happened right here in the US. I'm looking at
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Speaker 1: the alleged perp, Peter Green, and the quote aggressive Christianity
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Speaker 1: Missions Training Corps. Okay, right there. Everything I mean. I'm
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Speaker 1: certainly no Bible scholar, and I play guilty to ignorance
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Speaker 1: and a lot of biblical matters. But I thought Christ's
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Speaker 1: whole message was about including people. I mean, the last
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Speaker 1: I looked in the New Testament, Christ would um fraternize
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Speaker 1: with hookers. With thieves, with dreaded, hated tax collectors, even
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Speaker 1: people that tormented Christians. He included them. He showed them
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Speaker 1: love up. I don't recall anything about aggressive and the
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Speaker 1: whole New Testament aggressive behavior. That's their title. Peter Green
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Speaker 1: of the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. I mean, right now,
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Speaker 1: right there, I smell I smell a rat. But let's
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Speaker 1: get down instead of my wanderings about the facts as
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Speaker 1: we know them. A leader of the U. S. Military
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Speaker 1: style Christian sect is facing hundreds of child sex abuse
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Speaker 1: charges in a case police say is connected to wide
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Speaker 1: spread child abuse and child sex abuse by this religious community.
3:39
Speaker 1: Where was it with me? Is Patty Lane, investigative reporter
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Speaker 1: and renowned psychologists out of New York, Karen Stark. Karen,
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Speaker 1: thank you also for being with us. Where did it happen? Patty?
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Speaker 1: It happened in Sense Lake, New Mexico. It's a really
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Speaker 1: rural area, a lot of ranches. According to the Census Bureau,
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Speaker 1: there were only forty two people living there, But we
4:00
Speaker 1: don't know what people on this compound even you know,
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Speaker 1: counted themselves in the census report. The very latest in
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Speaker 1: and just the last couple of hours is that this
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Speaker 1: sect has been not has not only been abusing and
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Speaker 1: sexually abusing children, they are now accused of hiding children
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Speaker 1: from the police, hiding people. So we think they're forty
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Speaker 1: two people there, there could be a hundred people there,
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Speaker 1: forty of them children for all I know. And when
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Speaker 1: you're trying to hide children from the police, let me
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Speaker 1: tell you nothing good is coming out of hiding children
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Speaker 1: from the police. I'm just so shocked that this is
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Speaker 1: going on in somebody's backyard here in the US. Okay,
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Speaker 1: go ahead. What do we know that? That's a really
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Speaker 1: good question. You know, people that were part of this
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Speaker 1: so called sect or cult, if you want to call
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Speaker 1: them what they are, have been saying for years that
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Speaker 1: things have been going on in this group. I don't
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Speaker 1: know if they just took authorities that's longing to get
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Speaker 1: to it. But a hundred wants a child sex abuse
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Speaker 1: against one of its members, how does it go on
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Speaker 1: that long? The child sex abuse involves the rape of
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Speaker 1: a girl that they believe was smuggled into this country
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Speaker 1: from Uganda. So there leaves the question of if they're
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Speaker 1: hiding children, are some of them also children that were
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Speaker 1: smuggled in? If they're not recording births, which is what
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Speaker 1: was claimed against some of these defendants. Um, you know,
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Speaker 1: are they Are they hiding children for their own for
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Speaker 1: their own good? It's a very scary, very scary situation.
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Speaker 1: Did you just say, are they hiding children for the
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Speaker 1: children's own good? For their own But why wouldn't you
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Speaker 1: want for their own? Yeah? I guess so children, so
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Speaker 1: they won't they witnesses to all of this. A massive
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Speaker 1: charge has come down against these leaders of this crazy sect.
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Speaker 1: Peter Green, along with sect members Deborah Green, Joshua Green
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Speaker 1: they sound related. Stacy Miller also face charges ranging from
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Speaker 1: child abuse, bribery, not reporting a birth all along. A
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Speaker 1: former member, Maura Elena Schmeyer, has said that she has
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Speaker 1: been trying to draw attention to this sect for years,
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Speaker 1: that she has been interviewed by investigators, but nothing has
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Speaker 1: been done. What do we know, Patty Lane, investigative reporter,
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Speaker 1: about the charges against Peter Green. Well, Peter Green is
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Speaker 1: actually the son in law of Deborah Green, and Deborah
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Speaker 1: is one of the co founders and what they call
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Speaker 1: generals of this group. So we know that. Okay, wait
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Speaker 1: a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, right there,
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Speaker 1: right there, a general within a Christian group. I don't
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Speaker 1: recall anything about the Twelve Disciples, who owned absolutely nothing
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Speaker 1: except their sandals, being some military opposition group that involved generals.
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Speaker 1: What do you mean by generals? What? Why were they
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Speaker 1: called generals? What's that to themselves? After? Uh? For instance,
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Speaker 1: the Salvation Army, Deborah Green is a co general. She
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Speaker 1: basically has members believing that she gets her messages directly
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Speaker 1: from God. She's been seen in videos with aggressive tone.
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Speaker 1: I've seen this video. She's actually almost yelling at her members,
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Speaker 1: telling them that they are waging a war on evil
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Speaker 1: for God and that this is God's war. Karen Stark, you,
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Speaker 1: like me, are certainly not a biblical scholar. I believe
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Speaker 1: in fact you're Jewish, correct correct? So a general and
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Speaker 1: that tone and that anger that we just heard that
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Speaker 1: that's not right? Well, Nancy, that's what the kind of
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Speaker 1: thing that you hear when people are under somebody's spell.
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Speaker 1: This is more like brainwashing, where um, the person is
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Speaker 1: able to finally convince the people that follow them how
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Speaker 1: strong they are, how good they are, and people no
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Speaker 1: longer can think for themselves, and so the more they
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Speaker 1: are that outgoing and sure themselves and acting like they're
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Speaker 1: meant that they get messages from God. The more their
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Speaker 1: followers believe that to be true. You know, um, here's
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Speaker 1: the thing they do. I think of Manson. Here's the thing.
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Speaker 1: But at least Manson didn't hide behind Christ. Okay, you can't.
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Speaker 1: You can't lay that on Manson. It's evil as the
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Speaker 1: similarities there, because you know, there's nothing that the authorities
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Speaker 1: can do. The group's move from place to place, and
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Speaker 1: the people follow and really stick to a person who
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Speaker 1: is not a great leader, is not a real Jesus.
8:36
Speaker 1: Patty Lane joining the investigative reporter these people as she's right,
8:41
Speaker 1: Karen Stark is right about the Manson family moving from
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Speaker 1: place to place and being somewhat elusive. But this group
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Speaker 1: has an encampment. They have a commune of sorts with
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Speaker 1: structures built out in the middle of nowhere. So they
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Speaker 1: were there for police to Okay, And another thing that's
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Speaker 1: bothering me, Patty Lane. If you want to go off
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Speaker 1: and you know, throw your lot in with somebody like
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Speaker 1: the Greens in this wacky cult, that's your business. But
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Speaker 1: when you drag children into it that don't have any
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Speaker 1: other choice, that is a whole Another can of worms,
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Speaker 1: and I frankly believe that not only should the I
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Speaker 1: guess generals within this cult be charged if these allegations
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Speaker 1: are true, but the children's parents who let this happen,
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Speaker 1: who willingly let their children be abused and sex abused.
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Speaker 1: What more do we know about the nature of the
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Speaker 1: claims against these cult leaders? Well, um, Stacy Miller, one
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Speaker 1: of those that was arrested is actually the mother of
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Speaker 1: a twelve year old boy who died at the compound.
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Speaker 1: Apparently he had an illness um from a blow on
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Speaker 1: the forehead. He lost the ability to move his right
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Speaker 1: side and speak. And the Greens do not believe in
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Speaker 1: modern medicine. They believe that God can heal everything. The
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Speaker 1: boy went on to develop a sea your flu and
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Speaker 1: then he died. So Stacy Miller, the mother is being
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Speaker 1: charged in this on child neglect charges. I believe that
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Speaker 1: God can heal everything too, That's why he gave us
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Speaker 1: doctors and hospitals. Okay, there you go the thought of
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Speaker 1: what these children have endured. The leader and three members
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Speaker 1: of a so called religious group based in Cibola County
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Speaker 1: have been arrested for what investigators described as horrific crimes
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Speaker 1: against children. The County Sheriff's office says that deputies arrest
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Speaker 1: Deborah Green, Peter Green, Joshua Green, and Stacy Miller. Now
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Speaker 1: they are claiming that these are just recirculated old stories
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Speaker 1: that have already been proven false, But Sheriff Tony Mace
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Speaker 1: is saying his office first started investigating the group last
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Speaker 1: year when two members claimed they had just escaped. The
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Speaker 1: warrant says that Green controlled all the money and rarely
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Speaker 1: wanted to pay for hospital or doctor visits, preaching that
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Speaker 1: people that are sick must repent and be healed. Also
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Speaker 1: that Deborah Green sex assaulted her daughter's five year old
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Speaker 1: girl who could have been smuggled in from Uganda as
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Speaker 1: a baby. But there are hundreds of counts. Witnesses say
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Speaker 1: that children were treated like slaves and routinely whipped, that
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Speaker 1: she at least this one girl was raped until she
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Speaker 1: was nine years old. There are one hundred counts of
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Speaker 1: criminal sex penetration of a minor. Can you even imagine
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Speaker 1: what these children lived with and if in fact this
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Speaker 1: was a commune, their parents were there going along with it.
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Speaker 1: Patty Lane, investigative reporter, it's almost more than I and
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Speaker 1: take in. If the parents were there, I think they
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Speaker 1: should be charged to for letting this. Absolutely, not only
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Speaker 1: were they there, they were actually participating. From what meant.
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Speaker 1: Former members have said they were forced to punish their
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Speaker 1: children physically. You know, they were forced to beat them
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Speaker 1: for every little thing to get them under get their
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Speaker 1: children under control, and to make them quote better warriors,
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Speaker 1: to break the family bond. This is how the Greens
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Speaker 1: would work with these families. So understanding that these parents
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Speaker 1: are probably under some kind of mind control to begin with,
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Speaker 1: that's not an excuse. But what I'm saying is they
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Speaker 1: are in this atmosphere. I believe I would snap out
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Speaker 1: of it with somebody beating your child, beat your child.
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Speaker 1: And that's why one of them left because she couldn't
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Speaker 1: do this to her child anymore. But it had to
12:45
Speaker 1: get to a point where she had been beating her
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Speaker 1: child up to a point. So yeah, these parents were
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Speaker 1: complicit in what was going on. Another issue I found
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Speaker 1: out here and Start is that reportedly children were told
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Speaker 1: uh that they could not speak to police and parents
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Speaker 1: were blocked from keeping records about their children so they
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Speaker 1: could be hidden from police. You know, when you start
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Speaker 1: hiding records about your child's existence, and you don't want
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Speaker 1: police to know your children are even there. I don't
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Speaker 1: understand how the parents could go along with that here
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Speaker 1: and start, well, the parents aren't have lost the ability
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Speaker 1: to think for themselves, Nancy. The brain is can be
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Speaker 1: very sensitive that way if you wind up with somebody
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Speaker 1: who is that mesmerizing And what's fascinating to me, and
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Speaker 1: I don't really understand it is that this cult was
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Speaker 1: sued before and by Schmeyer, Morschmeyer, and she was awarded
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Speaker 1: money because of what happened with her children. And yet
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Speaker 1: the group went on, they moved, and they were able
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Speaker 1: to keep going sustaining the life that they were imposing
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Speaker 1: on the members. Is what else I know. According to ports,
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Speaker 1: adult members of the sect were forced to bury photos
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Speaker 1: of their children after the Greens were first interviewed by deputies. Also,
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Speaker 1: they were taught to hide from police if they saw them. Also,
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Speaker 1: they were forced to search dumpsters for discarded produce to
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Speaker 1: bake bread and then sell the trash bread to unsuspecting
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Speaker 1: buyers in Texas, Colorado, and Oklahoma. That's what we know now.
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Speaker 1: A raid went down in the secluded western New Mexico
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Speaker 1: compound right now, child abuse and child sex abuse charges.
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Speaker 1: Brutal attacks during church services occurred. Uh they had to
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Speaker 1: use tactical gear, assault weapons, a flash bomb in order
14:49
Speaker 1: to drive these sect leaders out and save the children.
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Speaker 1: That's what we know right now. Two little girls plot
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Speaker 1: and scheme. They invite their little best friend over for
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Speaker 1: spin the night party, the three of them seemingly having
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Speaker 1: fun at a sleepover, and then at some point they
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Speaker 1: lure the third little girl out into the woods, where
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Speaker 1: they proceed to give it their best efforts to stab
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Speaker 1: her dead. Yes, two little girls that have never been
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Speaker 1: a drop of trouble and their whole lives stab a
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Speaker 1: little girl multiple times and leaving her to quote bleed
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Speaker 1: out in the woods. Why why these little girls at
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Speaker 1: the time about the age of my girl Lucy's about
15:45
Speaker 1: to turn in. It's hard for me to even take in.
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Speaker 1: Now we know that their whole motivation was because they
15:54
Speaker 1: have become entranced and enthralled with slender Man. Slider Man,
16:00
Speaker 1: if you look at him online, is a freaky looking
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Speaker 1: dude that has taken over the minds of a lot
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Speaker 1: of twins between the ages of nine and fifteen and
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Speaker 1: convinced them that he's real the only way to go
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Speaker 1: live with slender Man in his mansion is to commit
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Speaker 1: a murder. Yes, a murder. I will never forget. When
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Speaker 1: I was reading about this story and I pulled up
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Speaker 1: a picture of slender Man, and the twins walked behind
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Speaker 1: me and looked at my penment. Oh that's Slenderman. I
16:37
Speaker 1: nearly fell over. I said, what do you know about Slenderman? Oh,
16:42
Speaker 1: we just know that's him. Well, oh so it's real.
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Speaker 1: Joining me is cracked. Reporter Drew Nelson Jury, thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. Let's start at the beginning of
16:53
Speaker 1: the girls or twelve years old when this occurs. What
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Speaker 1: happened exactly? The young ladies, they were all too well.
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Speaker 1: Anissa and Morgan invited Peyton out into the woods. They
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Speaker 1: were going to go play, hide and see. One of
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Speaker 1: the girls brought a kitchen knife, stabbed between the two
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Speaker 1: of them, stabbed Peyton nineteen times, and two of those
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Speaker 1: wounds could have killed her. Nancy, the little girl who's
17:21
Speaker 1: just absolutely precious. Peyton Lautner. Doctors say in the emergency room,
17:27
Speaker 1: she was about an eighth of an inch from losing
17:31
Speaker 1: her life because one of the stabs pierced her body
17:34
Speaker 1: about an eighth of an inch from an artery, If
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Speaker 1: even that much, that's how close she came to dying
17:42
Speaker 1: out in the woods that night alone. Can you imagine
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Speaker 1: nineteen stab wounds all in an effort to appease some
17:51
Speaker 1: freaky slender Man sci fi character? What do we know
17:55
Speaker 1: about slender Man? With me? Psychologist Karan Stark? Who is Slenderman?
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Speaker 1: Slender Man is a mythical character, Nancy, And um, I
18:05
Speaker 1: think somebody once drew a slender Man as a comic
18:09
Speaker 1: book character, but it took off. There was something about
18:13
Speaker 1: the idea of him. He was very tall and um
18:17
Speaker 1: he had children under his arms sometimes, and children are
18:22
Speaker 1: often fascinated by this kind of a character, spooky and
18:27
Speaker 1: um scary and here wait, I'm gonna tell you something. Yes,
18:32
Speaker 1: you're right about that. Children love ghost stories, scary stories.
18:35
Speaker 1: Mine got obsessed with what was it, goose Bumps. They
18:40
Speaker 1: saw the movie goose Bumps with Jack Black, who I
18:44
Speaker 1: love um ever since Nacho Libre. I mean, really, what
18:49
Speaker 1: else could be said other than that? But he was
18:53
Speaker 1: um uh, the goose Bump writer who created the Goosebump
18:57
Speaker 1: series in the movie. And then they started watching in
19:00
Speaker 1: the Goose bumps like little mini vignettes, and they're scary.
19:04
Speaker 1: If I never see Slappy the Mannequin again in my life,
19:07
Speaker 1: I'll be happy. Okay, so freaky possessed mannein Andy. The
19:10
Speaker 1: twins love to watch it. Finally I had to cut
19:13
Speaker 1: them off. Okay, they're like little drunks with with goose bumps. Okay,
19:17
Speaker 1: I had to stop the madness. But they children, for
19:21
Speaker 1: some reason, like to scare themselves, right, Like we all
19:24
Speaker 1: go to movies that are suspensed movies where we read
19:27
Speaker 1: a crime book or a mystery. But yeah, I like
19:30
Speaker 1: happy things. I guess because I've seen so much that
19:33
Speaker 1: really is scary. But I guess children go on like
19:36
Speaker 1: you're saying. The slender Man is a fictional character who
19:39
Speaker 1: took over the Internet as far back as two thousand
19:41
Speaker 1: and nine. He is always depicted as an unnaturally tall
19:46
Speaker 1: fan figure with a blank face. You never see his face,
19:51
Speaker 1: and he's always wearing a black suit. Um. He's said
19:56
Speaker 1: to have tentacle like arms which can be extended to
19:59
Speaker 1: cat a prey, and Slenderman allegedly stalks and kidnaps children.
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Speaker 1: It's also said that if you want to go live
20:09
Speaker 1: with him in his match, and you have to commit
20:11
Speaker 1: a murder. These two little girls wanted to go live
20:15
Speaker 1: in Slenderman's mansion. That's their story. Care and Stark, and
20:18
Speaker 1: they believe the story. And what I want to tell
20:20
Speaker 1: you about children and enjoying the way that yours did, Nancy,
20:25
Speaker 1: the kind of horror is that it's a way to
20:28
Speaker 1: get that excitement. And no, on the other hand, that
20:32
Speaker 1: you don't really have to commit the murder. It's vicarious.
20:36
Speaker 1: That's part of why children enjoy it so much. They're
20:39
Speaker 1: they're safe. Well, well, let me correct something. Nobody gets
20:42
Speaker 1: killed in Goosebumps, except maybe an alien or a creepy character,
20:46
Speaker 1: but little children don't get killed in goose Bumps. I
20:50
Speaker 1: think it was ready. Yeah, fairy tales are creepy too,
20:55
Speaker 1: but I have read them and they do get killed.
20:57
Speaker 1: But it doesn't it does, I guess. Referring to a
21:00
Speaker 1: handsol Hansel and Gretel and the witch. They killed the witch,
21:05
Speaker 1: and I don't want to get the witch population angry.
21:07
Speaker 1: But she deserved it. Okay, she deserved the death penalty,
21:12
Speaker 1: but that's a whole Another canon worms back to Slenderman
21:14
Speaker 1: and how these two can really justify stabbing their little
21:18
Speaker 1: friend next to her artery and leaving her to quote
21:21
Speaker 1: bleed out to Plae Slenderman. And that doesn't make any
21:25
Speaker 1: That part is the part that's very disturbing because usually
21:29
Speaker 1: children understand that this is a story, that's part of
21:32
Speaker 1: the enjoyment is that it's not going to happen to them.
21:34
Speaker 1: They're safe. But these girls at twelve actually say that
21:40
Speaker 1: they believed this story to be true and they killed
21:44
Speaker 1: the other day, tried to kill their friends in order
21:47
Speaker 1: to be with him. And that's the part that doesn't ring.
21:50
Speaker 1: And it was very well thought out, very well thought out.
21:54
Speaker 1: To Drew Nelson, they have been planning this for days.
21:57
Speaker 1: So a plea goes down, one of them plays guilty.
22:01
Speaker 1: What are they played? What did she play too? And
22:04
Speaker 1: what is her sentence? Nancy? They allegedly planned this for months? Um,
22:08
Speaker 1: they haven't. She hasn't been sentenced as of yet, but
22:11
Speaker 1: the prosecution is recommending ten years for pleading to second
22:16
Speaker 1: degree attempted homicide. Initially, she was charged with first degree
22:22
Speaker 1: attempted homicide. And uh, we're talking about a Nissa here.
22:27
Speaker 1: A Nissa took the plea. Um Morgan still faces charges
22:32
Speaker 1: the same charge. She could be sent away for forty
22:35
Speaker 1: five years if she is convicted of a first degree
22:39
Speaker 1: attempted homicide. Now there's the possibility that, uh, that Anissa
22:45
Speaker 1: still has to go to trial and if they find out,
22:48
Speaker 1: if they decide that she is mentally ill, she will
22:50
Speaker 1: end up going to facility mental illness facility, a mental facility.
22:55
Speaker 1: Did you see the picture, the photo of Anissa the
22:58
Speaker 1: stab or in court holding a teddy bear. You've got
23:03
Speaker 1: to look at that. Another issue here is that you
23:06
Speaker 1: know I mentioned earlier that earlier the knife was an
23:09
Speaker 1: eighth of an inch from the artery. I was wrong.
23:12
Speaker 1: The knife passed less than a millimeter from the artery.
23:16
Speaker 1: That's the width of a human hair, according to the doctor.
23:21
Speaker 1: That's how close her bleeding death was. She managed to crawl, crawl,
23:29
Speaker 1: a twelve year old little girl crawling and bleeding out
23:32
Speaker 1: of the woods to save her own life. So one
23:36
Speaker 1: has played guilty in his awaiting sentencing. The other, as
23:40
Speaker 1: it looks right now, seems to be going forward with
23:42
Speaker 1: a mental defense defense, claiming Slenderman told her to murder
23:46
Speaker 1: her friend. Will it work here? And starts I don't
23:49
Speaker 1: believe it were I'll be so surprised Nancy, because I
23:52
Speaker 1: could understand that if they were younger, but at twelve,
23:56
Speaker 1: she has some sense of the idea that that's a
23:59
Speaker 1: fictional care after, and I have trouble believing that she
24:04
Speaker 1: thought he really said that that's what he wants. I mean, well,
24:10
Speaker 1: a problem they're going to have with plant climbing a
24:12
Speaker 1: mental defect, Karen start is that they planned this out,
24:16
Speaker 1: and there are notes passed between them, messages passed between
24:20
Speaker 1: them to show that they're planning it. How they're going
24:22
Speaker 1: to lure her out, how they got her to close
24:25
Speaker 1: her eyes. I believe it was her birthday, got her
24:27
Speaker 1: to close her eyes so they could then attack her
24:30
Speaker 1: and stab her with her eyes closed, saying it was
24:33
Speaker 1: going to be a surprise. They even they even planned
24:35
Speaker 1: a code word for a win to start the attack.
24:38
Speaker 1: And as you're always saying, Nancy, according to the law,
24:41
Speaker 1: if they know the difference between right and wrong, then
24:45
Speaker 1: they can't be considered mentally insane. Listen to this one,
24:53
Speaker 1: your emergency transmember. A caller on Big Bend at the
24:57
Speaker 1: dead End, just Salt of rivera Okay, upon a twelve
25:03
Speaker 1: year old email two peers of being stabbed, she appears
25:06
Speaker 1: to be what stabbed? Stabbed? Okay, sorry, still there? Yes, hi, sir, so,
25:12
Speaker 1: is are you with this twel yeld female? Yeah? She
25:15
Speaker 1: says she's having trouble breathing. She said she was stabbed
25:19
Speaker 1: multiple times. They have multiple times. Okay, sir, are you
25:24
Speaker 1: with her right now? Does she awake? She's awake. Is
25:28
Speaker 1: she breathing? Yeah, she's breathing. She said she can take
25:31
Speaker 1: shallow breath. She's alert. Okay, stay with her. We're sending
25:36
Speaker 1: the police department. Don't hang up. Okay, hold on, don't
25:40
Speaker 1: hang up. Okay, okay, Well, nice minutes. We're setting officers.
25:45
Speaker 1: Is there any assailant around? I didn't even look. I
25:49
Speaker 1: don't see anybody. Okay, stay stay right with her, sir.
25:52
Speaker 1: Is she on the ground or she standing up? No,
25:55
Speaker 1: she's laying on the grass, laying on the grass. Stay
25:57
Speaker 1: right with her. Just letting me know if she is
26:00
Speaker 1: remaining conscious or not. Okay, okay. Is there any bleeding
26:04
Speaker 1: going on? Her clothing has got blood on it. Where
26:07
Speaker 1: are the wounds? Did you see where the wounds are? No?
26:11
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know if I should be rolling her
26:12
Speaker 1: over and checking or not. Do you know where Okay,
26:16
Speaker 1: just stay with her and just let me know if
26:17
Speaker 1: she's conscious or alert or stops breathing. Thing, hold on
26:20
Speaker 1: then to talk to the ambulance police are also in rented. Okay,
26:23
Speaker 1: thank you. Just keep her in that position, just let
26:26
Speaker 1: you know on her breathing. Okay, what your name, sir?
26:31
Speaker 1: My name? Your name? My name is? Okay? Were you
26:33
Speaker 1: just passing through? Yes? Okay, and you found her and
26:37
Speaker 1: she was just laying there. Yeah, okay. An amateur submarine
26:43
Speaker 1: inventor goes on. Let me just say, an underwater cruise
26:48
Speaker 1: with a young brunette journalist. Now we learned she goes
26:52
Speaker 1: missing and he has no idea what happened? Wait a minute,
26:56
Speaker 1: where could she go from a submarine? I mean, how
27:00
Speaker 1: far can she get if she's underwater on a submarine.
27:05
Speaker 1: So what does James Bond have to say about this?
27:07
Speaker 1: Taking the brunette journalist underwater in his homemade submarine? Why
27:13
Speaker 1: did he take her there? Was she doing a story
27:16
Speaker 1: on him or his contraption? Well? This is what I know.
27:19
Speaker 1: I know in the last hours a female torso has
27:23
Speaker 1: been discovered. Is it her? Joining me right now? Is
27:29
Speaker 1: investigative reporter and crime stories contributor Cheryl White. Cheryl, thank
27:33
Speaker 1: you for being with us. What happened? First of all,
27:36
Speaker 1: this guy people have a lot of wacky hobbies. I
27:39
Speaker 1: get that, Oh, but building submarines. Who is this person? Well,
27:45
Speaker 1: he's an inventor. He's a do it yourself submarine builder.
27:49
Speaker 1: His name is Peter Madsen. Um. He's been in an
27:53
Speaker 1: ongoing fight over this particular submarine, which I'll get to later,
27:57
Speaker 1: but in essence, because the submarine was being relaunched. It
28:01
Speaker 1: was initially launched in two thousand and eight. He threw crowdfunding,
28:06
Speaker 1: refurbished it, and was relaunching it. Was doing an interview
28:10
Speaker 1: with thirty year old freelance journalist Kim Walt, So they
28:13
Speaker 1: went out for a little voyage. It was it was
28:15
Speaker 1: going to be a very short ride. Um, so so
28:18
Speaker 1: she could continue her interview for a future story. So
28:21
Speaker 1: wait a minute, let me understand this. This guy, Peter Madsen,
28:24
Speaker 1: goes out with the reporter and she is going to
28:28
Speaker 1: write a story about him building the the amateur submarine.
28:34
Speaker 1: Apparently it worked and he had launched it before and
28:37
Speaker 1: actually did crowdsourcing to get the money to refurbish it
28:42
Speaker 1: and relaunch it. So this beautiful young reporter is going
28:46
Speaker 1: to do the story. I've just got to tell you
28:49
Speaker 1: to forensic psychiatrist Dr Daniel Bober. It reminds me in
28:53
Speaker 1: a horrible way of Stephen Avery the subject of making
28:58
Speaker 1: a murderer. And um, now, because of the way that
29:03
Speaker 1: was edited, everybody thinks Stephen Avery is innocent. Well he's not, okay,
29:10
Speaker 1: But she Theresa holbyt was a journalist and she was
29:16
Speaker 1: a photographer and she went to Avery's place to take
29:21
Speaker 1: photos of a vehicle he wanted to sell on Auto
29:25
Speaker 1: Trader and she was never seen alive again. This woman
29:29
Speaker 1: in this case goes to write a feature story on
29:34
Speaker 1: let's just say an eccentric I'll call him that for now,
29:38
Speaker 1: who had built this submarine? Okay? What can I can?
29:43
Speaker 1: I just ask um? I'm going to go to Sheryl
29:45
Speaker 1: because she's the only other female with me right now.
29:49
Speaker 1: You know, it's all I can do to take care
29:52
Speaker 1: of the twins, to cook for them, to get them bathe,
29:55
Speaker 1: get their homework done, keep him on the straight and narrow,
29:58
Speaker 1: give them love. We're all the time constantly working. Why
30:03
Speaker 1: do men have so much time for hobbies? And I
30:06
Speaker 1: mean obscure hobbies like building a submarine. You know what
30:11
Speaker 1: if my husband came out and said he was going
30:12
Speaker 1: to build a submarine in the basement, Oh yeah, I
30:15
Speaker 1: would totally be calling Claypool to file a divorce. Well,
30:18
Speaker 1: he's not building a freaking submarine while I'm out there
30:22
Speaker 1: making snacks and himing up uniform pants. I think this
30:26
Speaker 1: is sort of what he did, though. You know, he
30:28
Speaker 1: this submarine has has consumed his life for many years now,
30:32
Speaker 1: and he had been in a long running battle with
30:35
Speaker 1: some of the volunteers who helped him building it so
30:38
Speaker 1: he could regain control of this submarine and nanty. I
30:41
Speaker 1: don't know if you heard this or not. Let me
30:42
Speaker 1: get over to a a quote here. During the battle
30:45
Speaker 1: over who was gonna own or caretake this submarine, he
30:50
Speaker 1: sent out a note that said, you might think that
30:53
Speaker 1: a curse is lying on Nautilus, what he called the submarine.
30:56
Speaker 1: There will not be piece of Nautilus for as long
30:59
Speaker 1: as I exist. Do you cannot lift that curse legally?
31:03
Speaker 1: A curse what he said? Oh man, thank thank Heaven.
31:07
Speaker 1: I have a shrink on with me today. But before
31:11
Speaker 1: I get into Mattin's believe that there's a curse on
31:14
Speaker 1: the Nautilus. Look, nobody is sufficiently answering why I am
31:19
Speaker 1: up there himming uniform pants and making snacks while the
31:24
Speaker 1: men in the world have hobbies such as building submarine
31:29
Speaker 1: in the basement, or they can go golf for nine
31:32
Speaker 1: hours on a Saturday, or you know what. Whatever, go
31:36
Speaker 1: down in the basement and do your ham radio man. Okay,
31:39
Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep making snacks and cooking supper and working. Okay,
31:43
Speaker 1: but that's just me. I think I may be projecting.
31:46
Speaker 1: Let me get back to the facts of this case.
31:48
Speaker 1: So she goes down. I hear snickering, but guess what,
31:51
Speaker 1: I don't care. So she goes to do a story
31:54
Speaker 1: and just like Teresa Holback, I guarantee you she got
31:58
Speaker 1: a freaky vibe when she goes onto this submarine. Okay,
32:02
Speaker 1: back to Cheryl White, our reporter. Just hold back for
32:05
Speaker 1: a moment. Brian Claypool and Daniel Bober, I, now you're
32:07
Speaker 1: chomping at the bit. Okay, So what happens? Then they
32:10
Speaker 1: go underwater on the submarine. Oh, it would have been
32:13
Speaker 1: a cold day in h E double l before I
32:15
Speaker 1: put one toe in his submarine. But go ahead, Cheryl.
32:18
Speaker 1: What happened? Well, at Nancy, the last photos scene of
32:22
Speaker 1: the two are in the tower of the submarine, and
32:25
Speaker 1: Kim Wall looks fine. She she actually looked like she's smiling. Um,
32:30
Speaker 1: So what happened between the time that they left the
32:34
Speaker 1: dock there and the time that the submarine sank that
32:39
Speaker 1: was the next morning? Well, I think I've got a
32:41
Speaker 1: pretty good idea to Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Because
32:46
Speaker 1: a woman's torso has just washed up. How in the
32:50
Speaker 1: hay did he have time to kill her and dismember her?
32:56
Speaker 1: If he did that in the submarine, I guarantee you
32:59
Speaker 1: it's a crime scene tick Field day. But but let's
33:03
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that she's smiling the last moment
33:07
Speaker 1: that she's seen and now we I believe this is
33:10
Speaker 1: her torso. Well, she could have been coerced, she could
33:12
Speaker 1: have been threatened. He could have decapitated her after her
33:15
Speaker 1: body was outside the submarine. Clearly, uh you know, this
33:19
Speaker 1: was obviously no accident. And if he decapitated her, some
33:21
Speaker 1: attempt was made to conceal the crime. If that's not
33:25
Speaker 1: how she actually died from the decapitation itself, Well, here's
33:28
Speaker 1: let me just throw a little monkey wrench in the
33:30
Speaker 1: works for you. Brian Claypool, defense attorney out of l A.
33:34
Speaker 1: He now says he has now said that there was
33:37
Speaker 1: an accident and she died. I can thoroughly understand an
33:42
Speaker 1: accident in a submarine. But if it were an accident,
33:46
Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, why did he have to chop her head
33:50
Speaker 1: off and quote bury her at sea? I mean, Brian,
33:55
Speaker 1: if you and I were sitting on the coffee table
33:57
Speaker 1: having a cup of coffee, okay, and then suddenly a
34:01
Speaker 1: lamp fill on your head and you died, I would
34:03
Speaker 1: not cut your head off and bury you in the backyard,
34:06
Speaker 1: or at least I don't think I would. So explain
34:09
Speaker 1: to me the whole decapitation process and why he had
34:12
Speaker 1: to quote bury her at sea, Brian Claypool. And hey,
34:15
Speaker 1: you've already used up the snap defense in the first segment,
34:18
Speaker 1: so that's not gonna work on this one, okay, I
34:21
Speaker 1: no snap First of all, you want to get one
34:23
Speaker 1: snap defense a day. I want to thank you for
34:25
Speaker 1: sparing my head after you kill me, after we have coffee,
34:28
Speaker 1: So thank you for that number one. I set a
34:30
Speaker 1: lamp fell on your two that I happened to be holding.
34:34
Speaker 1: But go ahead. Number two. Not all men have these
34:37
Speaker 1: lamp want hobbies. My my simple hobbies are reading the
34:42
Speaker 1: sports page and maybe jogging every other day. So let's
34:46
Speaker 1: let's set the record straight with men out there too,
34:48
Speaker 1: and you going a little girl as well, so so
34:53
Speaker 1: not all men are like this guy, alright, But let's
34:56
Speaker 1: get to the heart of this. A couple of facts
34:58
Speaker 1: that are gravitating against built to submarine basically, go ahead.
35:02
Speaker 1: First of all, there's no he has no prior history
35:04
Speaker 1: with this young lady. There's no there's no evidence of
35:07
Speaker 1: neither did Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson had no prior history either.
35:12
Speaker 1: Difference there is he was married to Lacy. This guy
35:16
Speaker 1: has zero connection at all with this woman, and that's
35:20
Speaker 1: going to help his defense because there's not going to
35:23
Speaker 1: be any evidence of the neighbors overhearing these two fightings,
35:27
Speaker 1: for example, or any police reports from from from her
35:31
Speaker 1: calling and reporting that he's being violent toward her. So
35:34
Speaker 1: there's gonna be zero evidence of that. Number one. And
35:38
Speaker 1: then number two, you've already mentioned another important fact that
35:41
Speaker 1: this young lady looked very happy just you know, before
35:45
Speaker 1: something happens, So that does suggest that this could have
35:48
Speaker 1: very well been an accident. Nancy. You know. The the
35:53
Speaker 1: other thing this guy, um, we agree, is an eccentric.
35:59
Speaker 1: The victor him was certainly no idiot. I mean, Dr Bober,
36:05
Speaker 1: have you seen her cv. I mean, she has degrees
36:11
Speaker 1: from Columbia University and a London School of Economics. You
36:14
Speaker 1: know that's not a walk in the park. She's not noted. No,
36:17
Speaker 1: she had, she had, she had a very impressive resume.
36:19
Speaker 1: But by the time she realized that she was in danger,
36:22
Speaker 1: she was you know, in the in the submarine, probably
36:25
Speaker 1: isolated from any any possible help, and she you probably
36:28
Speaker 1: knew it was too late and may even know what
36:30
Speaker 1: was coming. You know. Another issue is that um Brian
36:33
Speaker 1: Claypool pointed out, which is the work of a consummate
36:37
Speaker 1: defense attorney, that she was smiling. Okay, well, Teresa Hallback
36:42
Speaker 1: was probably smiling the afternoon before she was murdered by
36:45
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. Um. Also, have you ever been in an
36:49
Speaker 1: uncomfortable situation and you just someone says something inappropriate or
36:54
Speaker 1: they do something that's you know, passive aggressive, and you
36:57
Speaker 1: just kind of brush it off and keep going because
37:00
Speaker 1: that's your job. You're just ignored and keep going. I mean,
37:02
Speaker 1: I do it all the time. And this woman had
37:08
Speaker 1: to do a story. That was her job. She went
37:12
Speaker 1: on the submarine to write a feature piece about Madison
37:15
Speaker 1: and his submarine. Now she's dead, and I guarantee you
37:21
Speaker 1: this is her torso so the fact that she was
37:24
Speaker 1: smiling earlier while she was trying to do this story,
37:28
Speaker 1: that means nothing to me. What matters now she'll never
37:32
Speaker 1: smile again because she's dead. Um, I guarantee you Dr
37:35
Speaker 1: Bober would walk me through this with me, forensics psychio
37:38
Speaker 1: just Dr Daniel Bober. Veteran defense attorney Brian Claypool out
37:43
Speaker 1: of l A and investigative reporter Cheryl White is with us.
37:48
Speaker 1: Dr Bober, I guarantee you this is what went down.
37:51
Speaker 1: She's in the sub with him, asking questions. She's smiling,
37:54
Speaker 1: she's beautiful, she's making conversation with him professional. She probably
37:59
Speaker 1: turns over down and there he is all puckered up
38:03
Speaker 1: and attack attacks and she resists. He attacks her and
38:07
Speaker 1: kills her. We may never know whether he raped her
38:11
Speaker 1: or not, but I guarantee you something along those lines.
38:18
Speaker 1: It's what went down. Daniel. It sounds like the most uh.
38:21
Speaker 1: It sounds like the most likely scenario. He basically ambushed
38:24
Speaker 1: her and again she acting like I think the fact
38:28
Speaker 1: that she was smiling again, she was just probably being
38:30
Speaker 1: a professional, trying to do her job, and she probably
38:33
Speaker 1: turned for one second and maybe he took her by surprise,
38:36
Speaker 1: or she had to resist his advances and he wouldn't
38:39
Speaker 1: take no for an answer. But like you said, we'll
38:40
Speaker 1: probably Brian Claypool. He claims to police that she wall
38:45
Speaker 1: disembarked on an island about three and a half hours
38:50
Speaker 1: into their trip on Thursday night. I didn't know this
38:53
Speaker 1: was a sleepover trip, Cheryl. I didn't. I thought she
38:57
Speaker 1: just went on and they took a cruise. But they
39:01
Speaker 1: went on what was planned to be an overnight trip.
39:04
Speaker 1: Did you know that part? No, he said they were
39:07
Speaker 1: going to just romp her off on a deserted island
39:10
Speaker 1: three and a half hours away, and that occurred on
39:14
Speaker 1: Thursday night, according to police. Now, also there is an
39:20
Speaker 1: indication the submarine sunk, guys, and in my mind it
39:25
Speaker 1: was deliberately sunk to get rid of evidence. You were
39:31
Speaker 1: right on that. So what's going to happen now that
39:35
Speaker 1: a torso has actually washed up? Cheryl? Well? We're expecting
39:39
Speaker 1: to find out more today about that. They couldn't identify
39:42
Speaker 1: the body. Not only was the heaf missing, but also
39:45
Speaker 1: the arms and legs. Oh, my stars, I didn't know
39:48
Speaker 1: that part, Cheryl. I mean the heads enough, but the
39:51
Speaker 1: arms and the legs too. There goes your crime of passion.
39:54
Speaker 1: There goes your crime of passion. Defense, Claypool, go ahead.
39:57
Speaker 1: There are so many interesting things here, because you know,
40:00
Speaker 1: at first he said he knew nothing about it. He
40:02
Speaker 1: had dropped her off at this island that had been
40:07
Speaker 1: um reclaimed, and and there was a restaurant there. I guess,
40:10
Speaker 1: but I guess the restaurant had surveillance cameras. They turned
40:13
Speaker 1: those camera videos over to police. It was soon after
40:16
Speaker 1: that that apparently he changed his story and he said, well,
40:19
Speaker 1: maybe I didn't drop her off. What really happened was
40:23
Speaker 1: there was an accident, she died, and I buried her
40:26
Speaker 1: at sea. So he changed his story. I find that
40:28
Speaker 1: very suspicious, Dear Lord in Heaven. Uh, there was an accident.
40:32
Speaker 1: I just went ahead and buried her at sea. Right now,
40:34
Speaker 1: When he left the private boat, a TV Channel two
40:39
Speaker 1: shows him the Great Inventor, getting off a private boat
40:43
Speaker 1: to discuss the sub sinking and his rescue and he says, boy,
40:47
Speaker 1: that that certainly is a fly in the ointment, isn't it.
40:51
Speaker 1: So he gets off the rescue boat and they're all
40:54
Speaker 1: the camera crews there, and what does he do. Dr
40:58
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober. He gives a thumbs up and he has
41:02
Speaker 1: to say something, so he says, I'm fine, but I'm
41:06
Speaker 1: sad because the Nautilus went down. That's his statement. Dr Bober.
41:11
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem like he really has to pst social
41:12
Speaker 1: skill of Nancy. I have to say, Okay, Clayful, just
41:17
Speaker 1: give me your defense. I've got to hear this well.
41:20
Speaker 1: First of all, you and Daniel should collaborate because that's
41:23
Speaker 1: an incredible suspense novel that the two of you are
41:26
Speaker 1: writing about what you think went down out he was
41:29
Speaker 1: puckering up down there and visit Vance. That sounds like
41:34
Speaker 1: a good book for me to read later tonight. But
41:36
Speaker 1: she's working, trying to make a living, and she turns
41:39
Speaker 1: around and say nothing but lists well, yeah, huge difference though,
41:43
Speaker 1: between the book you two are writing and proving beyond
41:46
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt in the courtroom that this guy murdered her.
41:50
Speaker 1: That the other biggest fact that that it's going to
41:52
Speaker 1: really hard harm. The prosecution's case is that that the
41:56
Speaker 1: you know, tragically this body was underwater. We don't know
42:00
Speaker 1: whether there were any animals in the water that might
42:03
Speaker 1: have and surgically cut off every limb. Absolutely absolutely, why not?
42:10
Speaker 1: What what are you kidding me? All right, let me
42:13
Speaker 1: ask you a question, Danna before we go off the dpan.
42:17
Speaker 1: I'm not weapons, physical weapons zero zero. Well, they'll be
42:23
Speaker 1: able to examine the Okay, we'll hold on, hold on
42:26
Speaker 1: what I think I've got proof. I think I've got
42:29
Speaker 1: proof because when I came into the studio today, I
42:34
Speaker 1: guess I'm going to have to cut his mike. When
42:36
Speaker 1: I came into the studio today, it was dry outside
42:41
Speaker 1: and sunny. Uh. The tent was quickly approaching niney If
42:48
Speaker 1: I went outside right now and there were puddles everywhere
42:52
Speaker 1: and people were going by with umbrellas and raincoats, I
42:55
Speaker 1: would know that it had rained. I don't have to
42:57
Speaker 1: see the storm. I don't have to see the lightning,
43:00
Speaker 1: hear the thunder to know that it rained while I'm
43:03
Speaker 1: in the studio. That's called circumstantial evidence. Okay, go ahead, clap,
43:09
Speaker 1: will clench your teeth, bite your tongue. So if he
43:11
Speaker 1: is saying she died by accident and I gave her
43:15
Speaker 1: burial at sea, if he's saying that now it's like
43:18
Speaker 1: his third or fourth story, and this torso is connected
43:22
Speaker 1: to her and it doesn't have a head, I can
43:26
Speaker 1: pretty much assume that he cut her head off. Also
43:30
Speaker 1: that medical examine will be able to tell by the
43:33
Speaker 1: severance at the neck as to whether there are tool
43:36
Speaker 1: marks or what how or bite marks. But I mean,
43:40
Speaker 1: what shark or water beast is going to bite her
43:44
Speaker 1: head and each arm off? Clearly that was done to
43:50
Speaker 1: avoid identification. Okay, we'll keep you posted on this. But
43:54
Speaker 1: what I know right now, as much as we've been
43:56
Speaker 1: kicking around facts and legal theories as it, there is
44:00
Speaker 1: a family somewhere grieving because Kim Wall is dead and
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Speaker 1: suffered a horrific death. And as we go to air
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Speaker 1: right now, we are learning that police are looking for
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Speaker 1: her clothing. Now this is based off a torso, which
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Speaker 1: means she was unclothed. As we understand, prosecutors are commencing
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Speaker 1: their investigation to seek a murder charge. Nancy Grace Crime
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Speaker 1: Stories signing off, Goodbye friend,