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BONUS EPISODE: Full Interview with Pro-Lifer Debbie Mountford || SLP409 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello, and thank you so much for downloading episode 409 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Thomas Thorgood.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I work at Speak Life.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually a bit of a bonus episode.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: On Monday, our live show, The Speakeasy, that went out on YouTube and Facebook, was a discussion about Roe vs.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wade, Pro Life, and the Church.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that featured clips from an interview that Paul Feesey recorded with pro lifer Debbie Mountford.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we thought it'd be great to release the full interview as a podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's already on YouTube if you want to watch it.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you find the conversation helpful.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I will catch you next time.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hello and welcome to the Speak Life channel.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Today on the channel we're talking about the topic of abortion.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're sort of reacting to the news coming out of the States in regards to Roe versus Wade and the possible overturning of that bill.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: But we knew, of course, that we're not always the best people to talk about these issues, and so we wanted to talk to someone who is in a much better place to talk about this.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so yesterday I had the pleasure of talking to pro-life speaker and advocate Debbie Mountford.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: I had a great chat with her.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think she's got lots of great things to say.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I really hope that you'll enjoy this discussion.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Debbie.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm delighted to be here.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's great.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for coming to speak to us because uh, like I say, it's always good to speak to someone who knows a bit about what they're talking about compared to us, that's for sure.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Debbie, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are and sort of um you know what what's your sort of uh stake in this this conversation?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my stake in this conversation.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll start with a bit of background.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm a Christian, obviously.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a wife, I'm a mum, I have two young girls, and I have a biological sciences degree.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I did a degree in human physiology and then really just spent 12 years in business in the corporate world and became a stay-at-home mum about seven years ago, which uh I love.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I got into pro-life work about six years ago.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm also the trustee of a local Christian charity that helps vulnerable and disadvantaged people in the Birmingham area called Just Caring Midlands and justcaring.org.uk if anybody wants to find out more about that.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the and pro-life, I think, really sort of came in about six years ago on top of that.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think like most people who get really drawn into the vortex of the pro-life movement, it was a personal story that started me off.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not my own, but um I had a close friend who had a devastating diagnosis and incompatible with life diagnosis for her unborn son at the 20-week scan.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think just the way that happened and the way um Zachary, their son's name was Zachary, was was sort of treated and referred to kind of before that was discovered and during and kind of after when they made it clear they were not going to go down the abortion route, really sort of spurred me to look at this issue a bit more.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think the more I read, uh kind of the more horrified I was and had a bit of a sort of a mushroom cloud experience of oh goodness, you know, how did I not know about this?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: How did I know not know how how big this issue was, you know, given my my biological sciences backgrounds, you know, I'm a mum, I have two children, I know about fetal developments.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it just spiraled from there, really.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I got involved with a couple of pro-life nonprofits, uh, chiefly those that fall under the umbrella of the Center for Bioethical Reform UK, CBR, including Brefos, which I know you know about.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I I volunteer for them and I become a pro-life speaker and advocate.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um, it would be really helpful for us.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think I I think you've you also said to me before you you have a bit of interest in American politics.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um the Roe versus Wade um kind of news that's coming out.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think for many of us outside of America, um, we may know sort of we may have heard of Roe versus Wade.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Many people won't have heard of it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or even if we have, we might not really know much about it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it would be helpful for us if maybe you could just give us a bit of a rundown of, you know, what is this, what is Roe versus Wade and what is kind of currently happening in the States with it at the moment.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Roe v.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wade is one of those uh names that you you're right.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people here may not have heard of it, some may have.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think for people in the United States, it's probably the one Supreme Court case that most people could name.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's really famous and that transcends across the pond a bit as well.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they might not know exactly what it's about, but they know it's about abortion, uh, and they know it legalized abortion in the United States.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So a bit of history.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Roe v.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wade was ruled on in 1973.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And up until that point in the United States, abortion was largely illegal.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: 30 states had a near outright ban, except for things like to save the life of the mother, and the others had started to liberalize abortion laws, but it was still pretty restrictive.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're coming into a landscape where abortion is larger than the majority of the United States.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the Roe v.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wade challenge was um a young woman named Norma McCorvey who became Jane Rowe.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And her legal team was challenging the state of Texas, um, basically saying, You do not have a constitutional right to ban me from getting an abortion if I want one.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that case made it to the Supreme Court in 1972.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was heard in late 1972, along with another case from Georgia called Dovey Bolton.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's less famous, but these two cases were actually heard together by the Supreme Court, and they were ruled on in the same day.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Dovey Bolton was similar.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: This was a woman in Georgia challenging the state of Georgia for a similar reason.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the ruling of Roe is actually quite complicated, and I won't go into too much detail.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fascinating read.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: You can find it online, it's quite long.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but basically it was concerned chiefly with two things.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: One was the right to privacy, and the other was viability.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this right to privacy had kind of come from a previous case in the 60s in 1965 about contraception, where the Supreme Court then had looked at the constitution where there isn't actually a stated right of privacy or a right to abortion, but there is what well, they came to the conclusion there was an implied right to privacy.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that precedent that was established in that case in the 60s was then expanded in a heavy weight to include a woman's right to get an abortion because it was a private medical decision between her and her doctor.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the point that Roe was really concerned about was viability.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: So they said the states could not ban a woman from getting an abortion before that point of viability.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they made it quite difficult actually, even in the third trimester, they put quite a lot of restrictions on what the states could and couldn't do based really on the woman's health.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And Dovey Bolton, that was ruled on the same day, actually defined health so liberally and in such a vague way, much as our own 1967 Abortion Act did here, that that really meant so health was familial, societal, emotional, financial, that kind of thing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So between the two cases, they effectively legalized abortion through all nine months of pregnancy for any reason.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what that's what Roe did in 1973.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the day after, um, basically every pro-life law in in America was was shot down, and this became the law of the land because it had been deemed a constitutional issue.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's helpful.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and so kind of what's kind of happening now then, because I I again, like I say, we I don't understand hugely about the way some of the American law works, because um, I think they have the sort of federal law, and then there's obviously state laws as well, which can be wildly different.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean part of my understanding, you can tell me if I'm wrong, is that if Roe versus Wade is overturned, it may be the case that every state can basically make their own decision on this.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is that very different?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: That is exactly what would happen.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you you are right that the the American government um has three branches the executive branch, which is the presidency, the legislative, which is Congress, and the judiciary, of which the Supreme Court is at the top of the ladder.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And their job really is to check and balance um against the other two and against the constitution.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So Roe v.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wade made abortion a federal issue.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: If Roe v.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wade is overturned, it will not ban abortion overnight in America.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's something that I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding about.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Roe v.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: If Rose overturned, abortion was absolutely illegal.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It won't at all.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it will just kick the authority to regulate on abortion back to the state, the way it was before 1973, and each state would be able to legislate um as they wish.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I've got a quote from this leaked draft from from Justice Leto.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So so what's happened is actually before I read the quote, I'll I'll go, I'll go back just a little bit of it in history.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what's happened with this leaked draft opinion is over the last few years the pro-life movement in the States has really been gaming gaining momentum.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll probably know of the flurry of heartbeat bills that have been passed, most famously of which probably is the Texas, the Texas Heartbeat Bill, which essentially bans all abortions after a baby's heartbeat can be detected at about six weeks' gestation, unless there is a risk to the life of the mother.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the most interesting thing about Texas is that the Supreme Court refused to block that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the first big indication that, oh, hang on, if you're refusing to block this, what does that mean for Roe?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are we going to challenge Roe?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But the Texas bill, and again, I won't go into detail, the Texas bill kind of found a little bit of a way to circumvent Roe.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't it wasn't a direct challenge, and they made it a bit of a civil matter.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Citizens are able to sue for up to$10,000.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: There is, however, another case that's come up in the pipeline just behind Texas from Mississippi called the Gestational Age Act.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a direct challenge to Roe.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So Mississippi has said they want to ban all abortions after 15 weeks, and they are just using the gestation in 15 weeks as their reasoning.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Roe states that the states cannot ban abortion pre-violity because it's a constitutional right.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this Mississippi law is a kind of a direct attack on Roe.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this has made its way up to the Supreme Court in a case called Dobbs v.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Jackson Women's Health.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Dobbs v.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Jackson was heard by the Supreme Court recently, it's been adjudicated in private, and the ruling was due to be handed down in June.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the public would have gotten to know about this in June.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what's happened is the draft opinion that's been written by the majority, and or one of the justices who's written the opinion for the majority has been leaked to the press.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that went to political.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, in this draft opinion, the majority of the Supreme Court have voted to overturn Roe v.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wade and another case that came along in the 90s, which sort of further liberalized liberalized abortion.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what's happening here, and just as a bit of background.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I will go back and just quote Justice Alito because I think he summarizes this really well.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Alito says, in his opinion, Roe was egregiously wrong from the start.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's time to heed the constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected report.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: The permissibility of abortion and the limitations upon it are to be resolved, like most important questions in our democracy, by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is what the constitution and rule of law demand.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what this is about.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about banning abortion, it's simply about returning authority back to the states.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I mean, I think that's already um for those of us who maybe aren't deep into this, that that's probably quite surprising.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think the initial reaction you get is you you assume abortion is being outlawed entirely.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that's that's clearly not the case.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like it's it's just going to become an issue where people will, well, as as we do in many things, we elect people to make decisions, we vote for the people we want who will run on the policies we want and will make decisions based on that.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore, some some laws may change in some states and they may not in others.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I guess that that seems to be where it's landing at least.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: About 26 states have joined um in the petition in this case from Mississippi asking the Supreme Court to overturn role.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we I think we can assume that about half of the United States, if this does stand, if this opinion, draft opinion, uh well, we know it's genuine.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: The court has has has ratified that and said yes, it is genuine.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: If that stands, and this is ruled on in June, I think we can expect to see probably 13 or 14 states ban abortion in almost all cases, excepting the life of the mother.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, uh up to the 26, up to sort of 25, 26 states, restrict it quite quite significantly.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're talking about half the United States going pro-life entirely or or pretty much.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, one of the things uh you and I had talked about was that obviously this this discussion has kind of come to the fore again with the news from the states, but abortion is a sort of worldwide issue.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's certainly an issue here in the UK and it's it's an issue all around the world.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so we sort of wanted to have a wider conversation, therefore, about abortion, um sort of from a kind of Christian perspective and uh things.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and so I think what would be helpful if uh if you would be able to kind of make your sort of uh your best case, I suppose, for um the humanity of the unborn, you know, the personhood of of the child in the womb.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because I I suppose although there are lots of lots of objections and questions around abortion, often it comes back to this being the root root thing of you know, when is someone a person and a valuable, valid life that we cannot end?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, do you have any thoughts on that?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, whenever I'm speaking and I'm making the case for life, I always I always look to three things, and that's science, philosophy, and scripture.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and please don't think I'm putting scripture last because it's least important.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, for a lot, obviously for us, it is of paramount importance.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I tend to find it helpful to kind of understand the science and the philosophy first.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and then comes to scripture.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the case for life really is is really simple, and there's a little three-line argument that sums it up, and it's one I use all the time.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it is wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human being, therefore, abortion is wrong.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is the case for life.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: We are we're basing everything on the fact that the unborn are human beings and therefore we cannot kill them.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I always talk about asking questions in the pro-life movement, always ask a question if in doubt.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the biggest question we have to resolve is what are the unborn?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we answer what they are, that determines what we can do with them.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, even in the Roe v.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wade opinion ruled in 1973, um, interestingly enough, the the justice wrote the majority opinion that time, I'll just quote him, he said, if prenatal personhood is established, the case for abortion collapses, for the fetus's right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the 14th Amendment.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So even in Roe, they they they agreed that if we can establish fetal personhood, then we can't have abortion.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this question is really key.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: What are the unborn?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when we look to science, we get a very, very definitive answer.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's not an embryology textbook out there that will tell you that human life begins anywhere other than fertilization.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: We know that in that moment, a genetically distinct, biologically living, unique, new whole human being comes into existence.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ethnicity, gender, hair colour, eye colour are all determined in that moment.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that new human being looks and acts exactly like a human being of that age is supposed to look and act, just as embryos do, and fetuses, and newborns, and toddlers, and preschoolers and adults.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these are all terms that tell us how old that entity is, not what it is, is grounded in its genetics and the fact that it is biologically living and growing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about it, we know that when we're talking about a baby in the womb, when we're talking about anything other than abortion.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we never hear a woman say that her fetus is kicking her, it's always the baby.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Even when we're dealing with medical professionals, when it's a wanted baby, right from the beginning of pregnancy, it's it's always baby, not fetus.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we understand that at a deep intrinsic level.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And science just backs that up.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But we do come to this point now of personhood rather than okay, so it's a living human being, we grant you that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: But pro-choice argument might be, okay, it might be a living human being, but it's not a person.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a living human being with any moral value yet.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a fetus, not a baby, it's a clump of cells, you know, it's it's it's not a life, it's a potential life, etc.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what language you couch it in.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: What they're claiming is that abortion isn't wrong because it's not killing, because there is nothing there to kill yet, because it's not a person.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So even though we can establish it's a scientifically living human being, we're saying this particular human being doesn't have personhood yet.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we ask a question: what makes a person a person?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: What is personhood?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Who gets to decide that?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do they?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: How do we know it's fair?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you ask, or or I have asked, you know, a room full of um maybe a hundred people who have a pro-choice perspective, what makes a person a person?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: You will get many different answers.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: You might get a heartbeat, pain capability, the ability to move, viability, birth, being rational, conscious, and self-aware.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's lots of different things that they think or people can interpret as making up personhood.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the point with this is that personhood cannot be subjective.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: We are either a person or we are not a person, and that must be the same for everyone.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: It cannot be dependent on what someone else thinks of us.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, whatever the line for personhood is, it has to be the same for everybody.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, we are discriminating based on age and based on what someone else thinks of us, which we simply can't do.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And again, in any other circumstance, we know that very clearly.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: We don't even try and make the argument.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: But the personhood argument here, because the pro-choice lobby do not agree and the pro-choice worldview doesn't have a consensus on what makes a person a person, the best thing they can argue is that we don't know what makes a person a person.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And indeed, that was stated in Roe v.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wade, we don't know when personhood begins.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea that that's an argument for abortion is false.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's an argument against abortion.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we don't know when personhood begins, then we can't take a chance that we might kill a person by aborting someone at the wrong stage.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you're driving home one night and you see a coat in the code, it's rainy, it's dusk, it's autumn, and there's this coat, and you there's a whole lot of leaves smooshed up in this coat, and you're fairly certain it's just an old coat with some autumn leaves in it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you might be wrong.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: It might be someone who has fallen down unconscious in the road.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So can you run it over?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, of course not, because if you're not certain, then you can't take an action that might kill a person.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this personhood debate really is a bit of a red herring.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a false premise because the only line in the sand we have is the one that science and indeed the Bible has given us.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's conception, that's virtualization, that's when we absolutely know a new human being comes into existence.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess it's so so dangerous to draw that line somewhere in an arbitrary you know, just with an arbitrary sense, because anyone therefore can move the line, you know.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: I guess in certain places abortion is outlawed at different stages of of um gestation.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then I suppose you can keep arguing, well, why not push that further back?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I I know you even get very extreme cases of people like is it is it Peter Singer who was sort of saying that even children up to the age of three could be you know killed um because they're not fully developed yet or have disabilities and things.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, many of us, well, the majority of us go, well, that's horrific, but it's hard to see why that's any more horrific then than it is earlier on, if you're just drawing a, you know, you can just draw the line anywhere, can't you?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: I suppose.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's absolutely.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Peter Singer from Princeton, his line is um being rational, conscious, and self-aware, which is the argument for um infanticide.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and he does argue what he calls um post-birth abortion, um, which as you say, it's just a it's a it's a horrific concept, but this is being argued, you know, from from the front of Princeton University.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's such cloaked language as well, then, isn't it?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like you wouldn't, you would never, you know, if it you would never have a murder case in a of adults and say, well, it was just a post-birth abortion, you know, I didn't I didn't kill him.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So abortion.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and as you say, it's such a moving feast.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, viability is a really popular one these one these days, but viability is just a measure of our technology.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: That that's all viability is.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if I happen to be near a neonatal a neonatal neonatal unit, um struggling to say that word, and I I I'm pregnant and I give birth prematurely to a baby at 22 or 23 weeks, um, in this country, that baby actually now has a very reasonable chance of surviving.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: If I was to give birth to the same baby on holiday in rural Bangladesh, miles from you know a hospital that had that facility, you know, viability in rural Bangladesh is closer to 34 weeks than it is to 24.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So does my unborn child, does the personhood status of my child change when I get on the plane or when I get off the plane or when I get a certain distance from the hospital?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So as you say, it it's a moving feast and it does not make any sense and it doesn't, it doesn't hold true logically either.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so so uh so we've we've thought a bit about the science there.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um it was that the philosophy as well there, with the kind of that was the science and philosophy.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're on to the scripture now, we're on the
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Scripture then.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um the humanity of the unborn.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as Christians, we are so fortunate that we have this higher definitive authority, which not only talks about the value of human life, but very helpfully talks about individuals in the womb as well when we're talking about human life.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So just so that there's no mistaking them for anything other than people.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll just share a few verses with you.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So and these are really well known.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll all know these.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Psalm 139, verses 13 and 14, unit me together in my mother's womb.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I personally love Psalm 51, verses 5 and 6, where David says, For I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me, but you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So David's talking about being sinful from conception.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: We we we associate sin with human beings only.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to be sinful from conception, David also had to be fully alive and fully human at that time.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we're he talks here about God desiring honesty from the womb and teaching wisdom even there.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Why would our Lord desire honesty and teach wisdom to something that was not yet one of his children, made in his image?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, Jeremiah, a very famous one, uh Jeremiah 1, verse 5.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Before you were born, I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the most powerful one for me is in Luke 1, when uh this goes over Luke 1 and 2, when Mary is visited by the angel and told that she will bear a son, though yet a virgin, and she rushes to her cousin Elizabeth to share the news.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when she enters, we're told six-month-old fetus John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Mary, uh Elizabeth turns to Mary and says, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: The first person to ever recognize the Lord Jesus Christ for who he was as an as a early embryo was another unborn child, the six-month-old fetus, John the Baptist.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our our Lord could have come to this world any way he chose.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: He came to us through the womb.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just so powerful for me.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but I think some Christians kind of look to other verses that they say maybe uh don't point to the value of human life, or or maybe even say that abortion might be permissible.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd just like to share a couple of them with you as well.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And talk about why actually I think they they say the opposite when read in the context of scripture and when we let scripture interpret scripture, I don't think they say that at all.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So one is Exodus 21, uh verses 22 to 25.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I won't read the whole thing, but just to summarize what's happening here.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is when we're given the example of two men struggling together, and they accidentally one of them accidentally uh knocks a pregnant woman or hits a pregnant woman, um, and there's then there's harm done.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And these verses talk about, you know, if there's no real harm, then the perpetrator shall pay a fine as per the woman's husband demands.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if there is harm, um, and I will just read this, if there is injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, hand for hand, tooth for tooth, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about if there is injury here.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's two ways really to read this.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Either the injury refers just to the woman, or it refers to either the woman or the or the child as well.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I personally agree with John Frame here.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it refers to either.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but even if we take the case here where it's just talking about the mother, if a man accidentally knocks a pregnant woman and let's say she falls and hits her head and dies, obviously the baby dies too.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is an accidental death.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: The punishment for an accidental death everywhere else in the Old Testament is that the perpetrator could flee to the city of refuge and remain there.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is the only incidence where I'm aware where an accidental death warrants an immediate life for life penalty.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's the difference between accidentally killing a woman who's not pregnant, where you get to flee, and accidentally killing a woman who is pregnant, where it's immediate life for life?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: The difference is the baby.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I would argue that these verses actually affirm the value of life in the womb.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one, briefly, um, which I get a loss actually, is Numbers 5, uh verses 11 to 31.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is quite long, I won't read the whole thing.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this is an instance where a husband suspects his wife of adultery, he's not caught her in the act, but he suspects his wife of adultery and he's overcome by jealousy.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he's to bring her, um, and this these verses talk about bringing her before the Lord a lot, um, but he's to bring her to the priest, and he will use some holy water and some some dust from the ground um to mix a concoction.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the woman is to drink this.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if she has not defiled herself, then there will be there will be no consequence, and she will go on to be her children.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And but if she has, she will be be overcome by pain um and be a be a curse.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it says here, I'll just read from verse 27 Um, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, uh, the water that brings the curse shall enter into enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um but if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be she shall be free and conceive children.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and some here will say this refers to uh a miscarriage, an induced abortion.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: The woman's been unfaithful and she's conceived a child from that, and the result of that is uh a judgment and she loses the baby.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, I I don't hold with that reading.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think if this is more likely to be that this is talking about um the curse upon the woman and barrenness and pain rather than a miscarriage.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, otherwise, if the woman had say been unfaithful but not conceived a child, so she wasn't pregnant, she couldn't miscarry if she wasn't pregnant, would she then escape judgment?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It it doesn't really make sense to me.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: But even if we are talking here about an abortion as a punishment for a specific sin in the Old Testament, that that that is the Lord acting under the Old Testament law as he did in many other individual cases, such as with David and Bathsheba and the child that was lost as a result of that adulterous affair.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Nowhere here does it say a woman has a right to take the life of her own child.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, the punishment for this woman had she been caught in the act of adultery would be stoning.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Would we then condone stoning women, you know, this side of the cross for being caught in adultery?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that again and again, scripture affirms the life and the humanity of the unborn.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we have very clear biblical mandates about how we are to treat human life and not to kill.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's really helpful.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as well, I mean, uh often I go back to sort of man being made in the image of God.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and of course, that is what I find interesting about that is that really, uh, I mean, a lot lots of people might say, well, look, when you're arguing against abortion, it's this religious thing, it's a religious conviction, and we we don't need to listen to your religious views.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yet, you know, the idea, of course, that man is made in the image of God, therefore everyone has value and um you know this equality with one another is what so much of even our secular society is built on.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so even you know, the the those those principles that you know people are arguing about rights, you know, in this this case, those rights are based really on these on human rights that are come from this biblical value.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: And once you dispense of the biblical values, it's very hard to even have a foundation for any of those things at all, anyway.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think it's it's helpful to keep to keep those things there in mind, isn't it?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um it'd be really helpful to think.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, so we we've been talking there about the um the the case for the the humanity of the unborn.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think in my experience of talking about abortion with people, often you want to get to that because you know it's the root of the issue.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: But it seems like so often there are just so many other things that are thrown up uh and kind of objections that allow, you know, to try and which just don't allow you to get even that far most of the time.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it'd be really interesting to hear from your experience sort of what are the most sort of common objections you hear against sort of the pro-life views, um, and sort of your thoughts kind of in responding to those.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I've been I've been thinking a bit about this.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I'll go with the big four, and or it what in my experience are the big four.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they are, I'll just list them and then we can talk about them a little bit.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So they are the first one we always get is is the hard cases, what we call the three percent.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so rape, incest, um, and fatal or fatal fatal disability or serious fatal disability.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I should say at this point, just to dispense with it, that to save the life of the mother for pro-lifers, you know, is it is a no-brainer.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anyone who would say in a in a genuinely life-threatening situation that you let both mother and child die.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you act to save the life you can save.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and we wouldn't even call those abortions.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you're acting to save the life of the mother, you're doing your best to save someone.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And a tragic and unintended consequence is the death of the child that you can't avoid.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we, you know, I think there's a lot of, again, misunderstanding that pro-lifers would would have women women die if they're in life-threatening situations.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we can just dispense with that one.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've certainly, I mean, I've certainly seen that actually in recent weeks of people saying that the overturning of Roe versus Wade would mean that, you know, a mother who has an ectopic pregnancy would become a criminal and a murderer.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and of course, like you say, I don't think any pro-choice uh uh sorry, pro-lifer is actually arguing for that to be the case.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think even, as you I think you mentioned even in Roe versus Wade, um, you know, those kind of things uh are not really on the table anyway.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they never have been.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those provisions were were were there before Roe versus Wade.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, even even in Ireland, the recent overturning of the abortion laws in Ireland, there was a huge argument made based on this life of the mother.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't true.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Those provisions were there beforehand.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it's it's another big myth.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll get that one out of the way.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so outside of that, uh the big four are you know the hard cases, um, rape, incest, and serious fecal disability.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say back alley abortions is is my second one.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that seems to really have risen up in response to this linked draft opinion from from Justice Leto.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: This if we make abortion illegal, you're not actually going to stop abortions, you're just going to stop safe abortions, and women will be in back alleys and they'll be in danger and women will die.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the second one.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: The third one for me, the third most common one I get is well, you know, you can't be pro-life unless you care about all the children in foster care.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to have a plan to help all of these unwanted babies that are now going to be born.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do we care for them?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do we care for their mothers?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if you're talking about making abortion illegal, you also have to have the solution for what that's going to mean.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a that's another big one.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the fourth one obviously is my body, my choice.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so those those are the four big ones.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, don't know if there's any you want me to address in order or will I just go through them?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: What if what if yeah, I mean, the first one you mentioned was the um the hard cases.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean we can start there if you think that's a good place to start.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we can start with the hard cases.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we have to deal with this compassionately and sensitively, obviously.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And as I say, I I got into this because of one of the hard cases.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: I got into this because of uh what was called what was a fatal, fatal disability in the end.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it's difficult with rape and incest because you're losing the consent elements, obviously.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And women who have been assaulted have experienced a tremendous evil.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we can't we can't brush over that, we can't deny that.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: We have to really approach these women with as much love and compassion as we can.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, we have to come back to the fact that if this is an equalities movement, as you talked about before, this isn't about putting the baby's life above the mother's.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is just about trying to make sure we treat both lives equally.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we have two people to care about in a situation, in a crisis pregnancy situation, uh, even when there has been a rape.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't give the death penalty to rapists, um, but we feel we can give the death penalty to this innocent child.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: We don't punish children for the crimes of their fathers.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so no one is saying that women who have been raped should be forced to parent.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where adoption can really come into its own.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but actually, I've dealt with a number of women who who have had their children after rape.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, most women, I think this is another common misconception that obviously if you would you've been raped, you would want an abortion.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nearly three-quarters of women, certainly in the Western world, who conceive through rape, go on to have their children.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, about 36% of those, I think, will give them up to adoption, but the rest choose to parent.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I know a number of women who say that actually their children saved them, their children helped them because something good came from something so horrible.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and equally, I know women who chose the route of abortion and feel just as wounded by the abortion as they did by the rape.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't get rid of the trauma of the rape, it didn't take that away.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then they had this second trauma that they had to deal with.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, I mean, compassion for post-abortive women as well is something I feel very strongly about.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, CBR has pace, post-abortive support for everyone.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we really need to be there to support these women and reach out to them in love.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, the Bible is very clear that this is not an unforgivable sin.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is not something that the blood of Jesus can't cover.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have to make, we have to try and make sure people know that and people understand that, particularly post-abortive women, I think, in our in our congregations.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think when we come to these hard cases, we have to still understand we're still dealing with a living human being, um, and we can't punish them for someone else's crimes.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And with fatal fetal disabilities and serious fatal disabilities, again, this is very difficult.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But my my friend Catherine, whose son Zachary had a had a fatal fetal disability, you know, he wasn't expected to live to be born, and he did, he did live.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and they had 24 days with him, uh Louis and Catherine.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that for all the sorrow and pain, they wouldn't trade those 24 days.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: They got to meet their son, they know what he looked like, they got to change his nappy, they got to hold him.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they had a funeral and he has a grave that they can visit, and his siblings visit, and you know, he is a person and he mattered.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And even though he had a life-limiting condition, the most compassionate and loving thing to do was what that family did was try and ease his pain and be with him and comfort him through that, rather than act to take his life earlier and to prevent suffering, a lot of people say, but we can we can really focus on palliative care for these babies and make sure they're not in pain and let them pass lovingly.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if we have a loved one that we know is not going to be with us for very long, we want to spend as much time with them as we can.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're we're not in a hurry to get that over with.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be with them and make memories and cherish that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that's important.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I think two things you said there kind of uh are really helpful to draw out, aren't they?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: That when when you were talking about the rape issue there, that um abortion is not the silver bullet that makes the trauma of rape go away.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: And even if it's not to do with rape, even if it's yeah, even if it even if someone is having an abortion for whatever reason, it can create a trauma in itself.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't just, you don't just carry on your merry way and things there.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think, you know, as well, I was reminded of a story when you were talking about you know, children with life-limiting conditions.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: I heard a story of a a little lad um from a church in London whose parents were told he had a very serious condition.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: And um uh I think they they were either told he wouldn't survive um to uh birth or he would live a very short life.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he he was born and he lived for, I think he lived for five months, but they said he was um he was a bit of like a minor celebrity in the church, you know, everybody absolutely adored him and loved him, and everybody always wanted to cuddle with him and stuff.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I think they said when he passed away, um, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people came to the funeral.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: And they said something like, you know, he he never he never he he was born at about five pounds, I think, and he never really gained any weight beyond that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: And they said, and I'm the the distinct thing I remember someone saying was he he never grew, but he taught others to.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you know, that was I thought that was just very, very striking that it's you know, he had a short life, but it didn't mean that his life wasn't meaningful in some way.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it and is and I'm and again, I'm not saying, and I'm certainly not saying his life was only meaningful in that it affected others.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, his life has a value in itself, but I think there's definitely a tendency, isn't there, to think that if a child is only going to live for a few days, well, you know, what's what's 24 days, you know, what's five months or but I mean again, I mean you then get into issues of where do you draw the line on that, you know?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Human human life is valuable, and you know, we we don't kill poor babies because they're poor, we don't kill disabled children because they're disabled.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we do our best to try and improve the circumstances for those around us, and as Christians, we absolutely should do that, and we should be reaching out to these women and and children.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but we have to start by not killing them.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, that has to be the starting point.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that that's that was kind of covering some of those hard cases.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um what was the next one you wanted to talk about?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: The the next one was back alley abortions.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if you've seen, but across social media, this has really risen up, you know, since the leaked draft from the US Supreme Court.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this one for me is one of the easiest ones to try and deal with because so much of the rhetoric around it is completely false.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: So back alley abortions are largely a myth, and there is a myth perpetrated by, I mean, they do happen, don't get me wrong, illegal abortions happen, and we can't deny that.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of how often they happen and the harm they cause, that is um a lie.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to America, since that were since that's what we were talking about, that lie was first perpetrated by by two men, uh Larry Lader and Bernard Nathanson, who were the co-founders of NARAL or NARAL, I'm not sure how you pronounce it, I think it's NARAL in America, the National Abortion Rights Action League.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they were really instrumental in campaigning for for Roe, uh, you know, coming up through the 60s.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, Bernard Nathanson, who was an OBJYN and who had performed thousands of abortions, actually in the end turned pro-life activist.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he kind of switched sides.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he admitted after the fact, I think I have a quote here from him, he said, we aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the US.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: The actual figure was around 100,000, but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1 million.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 to 250 annually.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just a complete fabrication.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of to back that up further, even the medical director of planned parenthood in 1960, a decade, more than a decade before was ruled, her name was Mary Calderon, she made this statement.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: In 1957, there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, legal or illegal.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: 90% of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that was in 1957.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Illegal abortions happen, but they are largely performed by the same doctors who perform them legally in the same doctor's offices.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're just done after hours.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: And even outside of America, when you look at the rest of the world, the data does not at all back up that more women are dying from illegal abortions when abortion is made illegal.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at countries like Chile, Poland, and Nicaragua, who made abortion illegal in largely in the 90s, the maternal mortality data for those countries shows that after abortion was made illegal, fewer women were fewer pregnant women were dying.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: The maternal mortality rates actually improved once abortion was made illegal.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Chile is a fascinating case study.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: There was a study done in 2012 in Chile by an epidemiologist who found that not only had the 1989 kind of ban on abortion saved children's lives, but had also improved women's health.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: He found that just like laws on tobacco and alcohol, abortion laws acted to dissuade.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: We do know from data all across the world and in the United States that when abortion is restricted, the number of abortions go down, birth rates go up, but not by the same number, by a lower number, and unintended pregnancies drop as well.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So fewer unintended pregnancies happen when abortion is illegal.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And maternal mortality data across the world indicates that banning abortion does not mean more pregnant women end up dying.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think just to, I mean, if I can add to that just for a second, I think one thing that's never talked about, we always, you know, the pro-choice lobbyists very keen to jump on the harm that will be done to women if we take abortion away, which isn't, which isn't true if you look at the data, but nobody talks about the harm abortion does to women.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this is something I feel quite passionately about because there is a huge swathe of evidence that abortion harms women.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not only the actual procedure, particularly if it's surgical and the complications that can arise, but the ongoing health issues.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: The largest ever quantitative synthesis of data that's ever been done was published in the British Journal of Psychiatry, so hardly a Choice publication and this looked at 32 studies, 800,000 women over 20 years.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they concluded that, and I think I have the actual quote here somewhere.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, the British Journal of Psychiatry concluded this study, women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81% increased risk of mental health problems.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: 81% increased risk.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: That same study showed that women had a 156% increased risk for suicide.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are now 46 statistically significant studies linking abortion to cancer and increased risk for cancer.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there are all sorts of implications, health implications for women that we don't talk about that come from abortion.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to highlight that as well.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's really that's that's really useful to raise.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I know in in conversation with you before about this, I said that it was very much my feeling that having when I've looked into the issues of abortion, came away feeling that women are very much victims in abortion in a way that the abortion industry doesn't kind of address at all.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: It kind of paints it as this you know solution to a problem, and then you can carry on with life and you know go and do what you want to do.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and those things you've mentioned just don't get a look in at all.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's no, there's not a even a glimmer of the sense that that could be even potentially an issue afterwards.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and neither does the trauma from abortion regret, because I I agree with you.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think women largely um are the victims of a lie.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think women, most women don't walk into an abortion clinic thinking I'm going to kill my baby today.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: They walk in believing the lie that there's no baby there to kill.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of the things I do is um I'm active on forums for uh helping women with post-abortive regret.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, some of these forums have thousands of members.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say I read four or five stories a day of of real trauma of women who have realized after the fact that it was a baby.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the trauma that causes and the regrets.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and some of these women are are still talking about it 40, 50 years um after the abortion.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we need to we need to recognize that and and be there to help.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: So we've we've thought a little bit about hard cases and the the back alley abortions.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what what other objections do you get?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be quicker on the next two, I promise.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think there's that there's this sort of um from from womb to tomb argument, you know, that the but think pro-lifers are often are often called pro-birthers.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we only care about the baby being born, but what's going to happen, you know, if you outlaw abortion, what's gonna happen to all these unwanted babies?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: How are we gonna care for them?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think there's two there's two things to say here, really.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the first one is that whether or not we we act to do anything after, you know, to help with unwanted children, whether or not we foster or adopt personally or give money to these causes or lobby for these causes, it doesn't change the fact that there is a living human being, a person, and killing them is wrong.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um we as I say we've got to start by by not killing.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing we're gonna do to help these unwanted babies is not kill them.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's important that we recognize that it's it is okay to pick a lane.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't we don't we don't look we don't look at um other areas of activism or where we're trying to help uh disadvantaged and disenfranchised people or people who are sick and say, well, you need to encompass more than what you're already doing.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: We don't look to the British Heart Foundation and ask them why they're not also trying to cure cancer or diabetes.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't look at breast cancer charities and and have a go at them because they're not also looking at other types of cancer.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we understand that sometimes you have to focus on one area and other people along the line will come and help at different stages.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um we don't have to cover absolutely everything, you know, as pro-lifers.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I would also say that again, there's a lot of misunderstanding around this.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't, we don't, it doesn't automatically follow that if we've an abortion, all the children who would have been aborted, and we we we abort about 200,000 babies a year in in England and Wales alone, it doesn't follow that all those babies are going to be born and immediately end up in foster care.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we know from even the recent very pro-choice turnaway study that only 96% of women who were denied an abortion no longer wish they could have had one five years later.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: And most of these women choose to parent.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that this is not the case.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be flooded with foster care.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there will be some children who end up in the system and we need to love and care for them.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: But most of these babies are probably going to be parented by their parents once they are born because you know, once they are born, they have babies.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yes, we need to make sure that we have great support systems in place for these women.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: But imagine if we spent all the money we currently spend on abortion on helping mothers in crisis and their babies dead.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much we could do with that.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I I would say it's it's it's a misunderstanding of the issue.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but either way, we've got to start by not killing them.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's really helpful.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's three of your four.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Three of my four.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: Three of your four.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh the the last one is is is my body my choice?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, obviously most people are aware of this.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, abortion has been billed as women's rights, reproductive choice, you know, health care.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I listened to the podcast podcast last week on on sort of the culture war.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I know Glenn was saying that, you know, how can they frame it like this?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, women's health and trying to put a good spin on something that's that's clearly evil.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so my body, my choice is is a really popular one.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And there's two ways you you've got to kind of come at this.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's two bodies involved here.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to go through our case for life and prove the humanity of the unborn, because actually, if there's two bodies, if there's two human beings, it's not just my body, my choice, it's our bodies, my choice.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're saying is that the the stronger person gets to make the decision about whether or not the weaker person gets to live.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we understand that that's not how human rights work.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: And dependency doesn't change that.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is a big issue that, you know, okay, even if it is a baby, even if that is a person and that is a baby, I can still have an abortion because that baby does not have the right to use my body unless I give it permission to.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's quite a difficult one.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: This this dependency argument.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it is just false, and we don't apply it anywhere else on the human spectrum.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: We don't apply it to babies once they're born who are still completely dependent on their mothers.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: We don't apply it to people who might be in a coma for a limited period and are dependent on doctors and nurses and life support to sustain them.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we wouldn't apply it in a basic simple situation.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine you and I were out on a boat together and there was nobody around for miles.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: We were fishing and our engine broke down.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the only way we could get back to shore was if one of us went under the boat to fix the engine.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: We had no scuba gear, but we did have a long tube and a pump.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you go under to fix the engine, it takes you about 20 minutes, and I'm standing on top, pumping air down to you so that you can live.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at that point, you are completely dependent on the actions of my body to keep you alive.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do I have the right, if my arms get a little bit tired, to just change my mind and say, you know what, I don't want to use my body to keep you alive anymore and let you drown?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, would not say that in that situation.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think really that's where my body, my choice kind of falls down.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean I that's really helpful.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess there are lots of, I mean, there are lots of things I guess people could people will say about abortion, and lots of things can be said in response.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, we we don't have time to delve into all those things.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um it will be helpful.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think what would be helpful for us to just chat about a little bit is what are the ways and how can we have good conversations about this?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's such a volatile issue, and it and it it can often create hostility just from the off.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so often we don't even want to broach the issue.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think, you know, particularly, you know, we've kind of said that the there are victims in this who are not just children but women as well.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um it would be good, yeah, it's good to think about what how how do we have good conversations about this from your experience.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's one of the things I I do actually is is do sort of pro-life apologetics training and how to sort of start these conversations, to have these conversations.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think the first thing we have to do as Christians is understand the issue.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's a there's so many misunderstandings around this, and we're we're frightened to start a conversation because we are frightened of causing harm.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think we don't realize the harm we cause by not having the conversation as um and this is a real this is a real gateway into evangelism as well.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've had more gospel conversations off the back of a conversation that started about abortion that than I have about anything else, because when you're talking about the value of human life, that's a really good segue into well, what's the meaning of life and and uh etc.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say we have to start by finding common ground.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, if you're dealing with the you know the hard cases that come up first, we do have to really graciously engage on the common ground.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: What can we both appreciate here?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: We can both understand that this woman is this woman is in a very, very difficult situation and have empathy with her.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: What we mustn't do is call her names, minimise her situation, um, you know, turn this around on her.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: As you say, I believe most women are are victims of abortion as well.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's my experience.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's those are the women I spend most of my time talking to.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think I have to assume when I'm speaking, um I always assume that I'm speaking to someone who may have had an abortion and who may be suffering trauma from that.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to go in with that compassionate outlook.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in general, you will be speaking to someone who's had an abortion more often than you realise, because one in four women in the UK will have had an abortion by the age of 45.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that includes a lot of women in our churches.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think we underestimate how many post-abortive women who may be suffering that we have within our congregations.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: So finding common ground, um, being as gentle and loving and compassionate as we can, and never getting angry about this issue, it's a very, very easy issue to become probably overzealous and a bit too passionate about.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm guilty of that, certainly.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think most pro-lifers who who start out start out with this huge overzealousness for it, and and we all do, um, because it's because when the penny drops and you understand that, you know, we're killing across the world 150,000 babies every day, you know, image bearers of God, that that's an emotive thing.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we have to realize that not everybody is where we are, and we have to meet them where they are, and we have to meet them in their situation and speak with compassion and grace.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and really ultimately, it's about trying to lead people to to the Lord and lead people to what the Bible says about human life and and what's what Jesus did on the cross.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's so helpful.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think um, you know, I often think of uh is it at the beginning of John's gospel where it says, you know, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ, and that on these issues we need to speak with both those things.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: We need to speak with grace and we need to speak with truth.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: And there's always a danger.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: The danger is that we always err too far one way or the other, that we we are simply all about truth, and therefore we can be very cold and we don't have compassion and we we don't kind of love people in these situations, so we just kind of hit them with hard facts and can be quite brutal, or we can be so gracious that we never say the hard things um that kind of might shock people into realizing, you know, that penny drop moment.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and there is this sort of uh, I think there is that this balancing of of being gracious and and true, you know, and I think particularly, like you say, as well, being aware that even in a even with people you know quite well, you may be having a conversation with someone who has had an abortion or or whose wife or partner had an abortion or a girlfriend or a or a or a daughter had an abortion or something, you just don't know how far it reaches.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that's often forgotten as well, actually, that it it does affect, you know, people in the family.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember seeing, I think it was on, it may have been on through pace, or um, it may be something else, a lady saying that you know, her daughter had had an abortion and then her daughter had taken her own life.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um she's like, I've lost a daughter and a granddaughter, you know, and you I don't think you see the repercussions of that sometimes.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: So being aware of that when we speak to people, I think is is just really important.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that it is a difficult line to walk because sometimes we're we're called to speak the truth in love, but the the truth of this is is a hard truth.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think and I think it's a hard truth for a lot of Christians to grasp as well.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, if you'd asked me 10 years ago, I would have said, oh yes, I'm I'm pro-life.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I believe babies in the womb are babies, and I'm a Christian, I'd never have an abortion.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I might even have gone so far as to say, but you know, certainly outside of the church, I wouldn't want to impose those views on anybody.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then it would have slipped from my mind and I would have moved on.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't grasp it, I didn't get it.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's quite big within the church.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is yes, we're pro-life, yes, we understand that the unborn are human beings, but it's a sort of slip-off issue.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and we move on.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, and obviously what's what the Church of Christ should be about is is is worshiping him and leading people to his kingdom.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: But we are also called to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're called to speak for the marginalized and the disenfranchised and the poor, you know, and and probably the most marginalized and vulnerable group among us are the unborn.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I don't think that's recognized.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes even trying to be very gracious and speak the truth in love, that truth is still, this particular truth is very jarring.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that can be a really difficult line to walk.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as you say, it affects other people as well.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: I um, you know, I had a man from our church um after, I think he he followed something I'd said on Facebook about abortion.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he actually came to visit me and uh and he's he said I can share this story, I'm I'm doing it with his permission.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, he he had before he had become a Christian, he had been part of or encouraged his then fiance to to have an abortion, or he'd been part of that decision.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And even after his conversion, he hadn't realized that was something he had to bring to Christ that he was, you know, and and and he ended up in floods of tears emotional in my back garden because because of this realization.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this was a man who was post-abortive in a way because he'd been part of it, and we forget about that.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Fathers are part of this decision, who had said to me, you know, we do need to talk about this and we do need to talk about this because people don't realize.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I don't want it to be all we talk about, but I think we do need to we do need to talk about it.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to equip um our congregations and our young people to be able to have this conversation.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we need to we need to go through the apologetics of this with them and teach people to make the case for life.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many of our young men going off to university or apprenticeships or into the workforce at maybe 18 years old would be able to have a conversation with, you know, an angry pro-choice feminist screaming my body, my choice, you know, in a gracious way.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we need to teach them to be able to do that.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's really important, isn't it?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, talking there about what the what the church says about this, because for we we did have a talk in our church, I think, within the last year or so on abortion.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was the first one I'd ever heard on abortion in the church, and lots of people I've spoken to had never heard a talk on abortion.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think that like you're right, there are there are so many ways in which it's important for us to talk about it within the church.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um from you know a number of angles, really, that the there are there will be people in the church, it will be women in the church who've had abortions, maybe before they were Christians, but maybe even when they were Christians.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: And um there may be guilt around that and shame, um, or maybe as you said, mentioned the case of that guy there, maybe some not even an awareness sometimes of there being something that's gone on there that's been a real, a real issue.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think mentioning bringing you know, talking about abortion in those cases and saying that there is still grace and forgiveness and mercy from the Lord Jesus, this is not a sin that is not cannot be forgiven.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think there's that angle, and you know, like you say, there will be other people like that that man you mentioned who've played roles in abortion um and who need they need counsel and pastoral support and love and that.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, the other issue, I suppose, is is like you say, it's that it's that slightly more outward-facing um kind of activism sounds quite strong, but um but being prepared to speak up outside of you know the the four walls of the church, um, and you know to say being hack making the case for life.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: But also, I mean, I think a bit like you, I went to the Brefos conference a few years ago, and my my position had much been a bit like yours, that I would have said, Yeah, I'm a pro-life, but you know, I'm I'm not here to really impose my views on other people and things.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and it was really through the events of those that day and seeing the kind of facts and things that were presented and some of the images and things that you, you know, it was were heartbreaking really.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: And you think, well, this isn't something we can be quiet about.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you wouldn't you wouldn't use that kind of um you wouldn't use that logic in other settings uh and say, well, you know, I I don't think it's right to, you know, I don't think it's right to kill someone, but if other people go around killing people, that's fine.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we wouldn't apply that on a on that kind of scale.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think we do need to talk about it, it's it's really important.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I I I don't know, you know, I I hope that churches are maybe beginning to wake up to it, and I hope ministers will be brave to do it.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, like I say, you need to speak with grace and truth.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you need to speak, I think that's the most important thing.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I agree.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think when you um I watched the breakfast conference online, I was meant to be there, but I'd slept to disc that day, so I was I was watching online.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I know I know Dave Brennan quite well, he's such an amazing guy and he speaks brilliantly on this subject.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, massive all for him.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think when you have that penny drop moment, as you did at the Breakfast Conference, as I did when I started looking into this, when you have that lightning bolt of oh my goodness, we're killing millions of children.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are millions, there's between 42 and 56 million babies a year lose their lives to abortion.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is by far the single biggest killer of innocent human life in the history of the world.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but more than any war we've ever fought, more than any famine, more than it's amazing the scale of it.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when you when when that dawns on you, and when you do grasp that just because we can't see them, you know, the unborn are still fully human, image bearers, made in the image of God, children.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at what the Bible tells us about the value of children in human life and what we're to do to protect them, it's difficult not to want other people to have the same lightning bolt moments.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really difficult not to want everybody to go, oh goodness, you know.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean that we should be ignoring, you know, the other social justice causes, I suppose, that as you know, as Christians, we want to help, we're called to help those in need.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I find it quite interesting that you just you know just how sort of pushed aside sometimes I think the unborn are.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: But like you, I do hope that churches are kind of waking up to this issue and and that pastors will be brave.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that Dave Brennan and his team can sort of travel the country and so and preach this from the front, which is brilliant.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and hopefully, you know, hopefully this discussion will raise awareness for some people as well, maybe who are watching some of the Speak Live stuff.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: We really hope that's the case.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, we could talk, I know we could talk for for hours about there are so many more issues that can be raised and things that can be said.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but um, you know, we we you know, we do only have a limited amount of time.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I just want to say thank you so much, Debbie, for speaking to us.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's so useful and helpful to hear these things laid out.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, even just having those facts and figures at your fingertips um that many of us won't have and know um is so useful.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: But also um, yeah, just encouraging for us to hear the work, you know, that yourself and people like yourself are doing in this area.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so we just yeah, we want to thank you for that and encourage you to keep doing it as well.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and keep up the good work on that front.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I will I will go and uh give this a pro-life apologetics trading to to anybody who would like to have me.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yes.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: And is that could you mention a few uh organizations earlier on that you were involved with?
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: Did you just want to flag those up again before we finish?
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just um uh yes, so from a pro-life perspective, uh mainly Brefos and and Hope.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Brefos is obviously Dave Brennan who who travels around and speaks from the front on this issue.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm I'm quite keen.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so Dave and I uh are quite keen, sort of maybe that I could follow him and do kind of smaller group meetings.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of do more of the apologetics training side of things for those who want to learn more.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: So once that awakening has happened, kind of how do we how do we speak into this issue?
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know whether you can put my contact details in in the notes for the show if anybody wants to contact me, I'm happy to travel to sort of come and speak.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, CBR, Hope, and Brefos.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I also work with a fabulous charity and I'm a trustee of Just Caring Midlands, um, which looks uh to seek seeks to help and support uh disadvantaged and vulnerable young adults in the West Midlands.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we have a drop-in center and gardening projects, you know, we help with literacy and numeracy.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if anybody would like to find out more about that, it's justcaring.org.uk.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: We'll do go and check those out.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, if you want to get in touch uh with Debbie, then uh maybe yeah, drop us a line and we can put you in touch.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably the easiest way.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: Debbie, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's been wonderful.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we hope you enjoyed that video.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was a real pleasure speaking to Debbie and she had lots of really helpful things to say.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Debbie did say that if uh perhaps you are part of a church and you would like her to come and do some apologetics training with you, that she does uh she's able to come and do that.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you'd like to get in contact with her, uh the best thing is to contact us first and we will pass your details on to her.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: So just drop us an email at info at speaklife.org.uk and we can get you guys put in touch.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, like I said, hope you found it helpful and do let us know down in the comments what you think about this subject.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: We'd love to hear more from you.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks very much, guys.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_03: Take care.