Latest / The Accounting Podcast / Banking on Change: How Renegade Firms Redefine Success (from The Earmark Podcast)
Transcript
- Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Madeline Reeves: [00:00:00] And you can tell people to do the work and you can pay people to do the work. But to actually get people to want to show up and fully do the work, it has to be aligned around the things that genuinely motivate them as a human. Blake Oliver: [00:00:11] Are you an accountant with a continuing education requirement? You can earn free Nasba approved CPE for listening to this episode. Just visit earmarked in your web browser, take a short quiz and get your certificate. Welcome to the earmarked podcast. I'm Blake Oliver, coming to you from Austin on the Advisory Amplified tour recording in front of a live audience. Today we're talking about what it means to be a renegade in accounting. Yes, a renegade, in other words, what it means to challenge norms and not just as an individual. There are also renegade firms, a few of them. What do those look like? How are they different? And beyond these renegade firms, there are tech companies helping to challenge long held assumptions in our profession. Today I'm joined by Madeline Reeves, founder and CEO of Fearless Foundry. Madeline, thanks for joining us. Madeline Reeves: [00:01:11] For having me. Blake Oliver: [00:01:12] And we've also got Wesley McDonald, go to market leader at relay. Welcome, Wes. Wesley McDonald: [00:01:16] Thanks, Blake. Blake Oliver: [00:01:17] So, Madeline, I'll start with you because you have worked very closely with many innovative firms. What is a renegade firm in your mind? Madeline Reeves: [00:01:28] So a renegade firm is a firm that is leading their clients to somewhere new and is not settling for the ways that things have always been done and is willing to challenge the status quo. It's a firm that looks out at the landscape of the tech that's available and sees, you know, these sort of companies as key partners to their business model and then is actually pushing, whether it's their clients or the technology side of the space, to do better, to build new innovations and really seeing that they have the insights as to what is needed on the platform side, and that they can work with these tools to bring something to life that's stronger in their client experience. Blake Oliver: [00:02:05] So give me some examples of the the norms that these firms are challenging. What is different like like day to day? How are these firms different than a what we would call a traditional accounting firm. Madeline Reeves: [00:02:18] So I'm going to talk about someone who's no longer with us, but we all know and love, which is Josh Lance's firm. Um, and one of the things that Lance CPA did that was so amazing and was a renegade move back in the day, was that when they would sign new clients, they would deliver a beautiful experience to them. And this this firm was acquired eventually by revel CPA, which is my accounting firm that I work with. And they still keep that that legacy alive today. And so when they sign new clients, they send them like a beautiful welcome kit. And their niche or one of their niches back in the day was in, in breweries and, and kind of in the hospitality space. And so that wasn't just a welcome kit, it was a welcome kit that had like a really cool beer glass and had like a cool pair of socks and just had a couple other things in it that really welcomed, you know, the client into the experience in a way that was unexpected and really delighted them. I also think on the client service side, these firms are stepping out and saying, like, I'm actually the leader in telling our clients how things should work. And this is something that I think more firms need to, like, take the charge on, because there's a lot of firms who will still say like, oh, well, my client doesn't use that technology or they won't touch that. And it's like, wait a second. Like when I go to the dentist, I'm not like telling the dentist like, no, don't use that drill in my mouth. Like, I don't, I don't know how to do dentistry. And so if you're an accountant, it's your job to lead your clients. And so I think these firms are also really coming to the table saying like, this is how we do this job well and effectively for you. And if the goal and the outcome is something like advisory, this is how we get there. Better faster. Wesley McDonald: [00:03:51] Mhm. Blake Oliver: [00:03:52] And that's a great transition to Wes and to relay into banking. Because banking isn't generally thought of as a renegade, a renegade industry. It's like one of the most conservative industries there can be in many ways. Wesley McDonald: [00:04:11] Yeah, 100%. Banking has a status quo much like accounting does, where there hasn't been tremendous innovation. Um, what is a bank to you? Why do you choose a bank? A lot of times when I ask someone, why did you choose your bank? It's because it's because I know that bank exists or they're down the street or my parents bank there. Right? So how do we take that status quo and layer on all the tools we have? Additionally, on top of that and make it such that it's a powerful tool, not just a tool that is the status quo. Blake Oliver: [00:04:42] And Madeline said something about, um, it's it's about leading your clients to the right solutions. Banking has not traditionally been something that accountants have made recommendations around, right. Like there's a lot of hesitation to say, uh, ditch your current bank. Use a modern bank like relay. So can you tell us, like, how are firms approaching that, like modern firms that are leading clients? Like, how do they have that conversation? Wesley McDonald: [00:05:11] I just had a conversation with someone over the table, and they were asking me, how do they pitch relay to their clients? And I think the first question is due to discovery. It's why did you choose your bank? There might be a really good reason why someone chose their bank, and if they can't articulate that, I think that's when you can start having the conversation. What does your bank do for you? Is it a place for you to store your money? Is it a place where you know you're able to get a loan? Probably. That's a good place to start, but what is your bank do for it? The whole idea behind kind of the tech evolution over the past 30 years is taking tools and making them work for people, and I think that's what relay is really trying to do, is build a bank that works for its clients and also for its partners. Um, and I think one thing that we do very well, and this is this is kind of a tech world thing. It's we build things for our clients and we take client feedback very, very seriously. So if a partner of ours has an idea and they bring it to us, we will action on that idea. And we want to build the tool that serves them, not a tool that just fits what we've built previously. Blake Oliver: [00:06:12] That's definitely different. I'm not even sure how I would give feedback to Chase or Bank of America or or Wells Fargo. I don't feel like there's anyone at that organization that would want to talk to me. I mean, the the banker in the branch would, but they can't actually do anything about the technology. That's all totally separate. But tell us about, like, relays, like how relay works with accounting partners, because I think that is something that is really unique in the banking world. Wesley McDonald: [00:06:44] Yeah, absolutely. So relay is purpose built for our accounting partners and their clients. So when when we started to build relay, we wanted to think about what does that relationship look like between the accountant and the business owner? And, you know, I think with traditional banking, a lot of the information is gatekept and for good reason, for regulatory reasons, about how this accountant or the external partner access that information. And we really want to surface that information to the partners, to the accountants, so that they could action on behalf of the business owner, which is what they're paying the business owner to do. Business owners aren't paying accountants, like like you said earlier today, to chase down bank statements from them. They're paying them for insights. They're paying them for, you know, to close their books on time. So giving them the more power to do that is kind of what relay was built around providing those services for. Blake Oliver: [00:07:32] I feel like relay has like partnerships as one of its core values. There's something like that, right? Like it's it's it's valuing the accountant advisor relationship and and building product for accountants, not just business owners and not just something that will like drive revenue for relay. Wesley McDonald: [00:07:52] Yeah. Like we have seven core values that relay. And one of them is be the champion for SMEs and their partners. Blake Oliver: [00:07:57] There you go. Wesley McDonald: [00:07:57] So we we try to live that every day. Blake Oliver: [00:07:59] And I didn't even know that. And I just saw that right. That's my experience of it. Um, Madeline, you talk a lot about businesses in aligning aligning the, the like the messaging, the, the, uh, the marketing of a business with its values. Like, it's really tell us, tell us about that. And then, you know, actually just can you explain that concept? Like why it's so important for the values of a firm to align with how it shows itself to the world? Madeline Reeves: [00:08:32] Well, I think that we've all had the experience where we've gotten marketed to or like thought we knew what something was, and then we maybe get on the other side and we're like, wait, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. And I think a lot of times there's a disconnect, especially in the ecosystem, um, whether it's on the tech company side or on the firm side, where people think that they're sharing a story about what their brand is. And then when people get to know them, they're like, this isn't the one for me. On the flip side of that brand and storytelling and marketing in an appropriate way that really puts out who you are, what you believe in, the things you value. Has this really powerful way of drawing the right people in. And so we always talk at Fearless Foundry about brand as being this powerful way to repel the wrong folks and attract the right folks to the business that you're building. I'm going to tie this back to relay, because I think I, like many small business owners, look out in the landscape and do not see a bank that I want to work with. And if it is a bank that shares my values, they are not having any sort of technology on the back end. And so, for example, we had a bank that we wanted to partner with and they didn't even have an online way to get bank statements to us. They were like a local community bank that we thought was doing great things in the community, but they didn't have any technology. And so as much as I was like, oh, cool, you guys really seem like you have good values, there was no. If you're really like serving small business is the core of who you are. Making me have to write to a banker and email to get a bank statement. Isn't serving small business that's creating extra manual work for me or for my accountant? Blake Oliver: [00:10:08] It doesn't line up with the values. Madeline Reeves: [00:10:09] Exactly, whereas at relay, like, every piece of functionality that I've experienced is directly correlated to my experience as a small business owner and to working well with my accountant. And that's the really big difference, is that I see in their values that they went to market first for accounting professionals. They were like the first people to do that, which was very, very different. And I see that in the way that they build product. And then for me as the user, I'm like, you're living up to those values that you professed, because I can see that every single day in the way that I use the tool and the way I work with my accountant in it. Blake Oliver: [00:10:42] So what sort of values do you see renegade firms prioritizing. Madeline Reeves: [00:10:47] Okay, so one is not being afraid to stand out. And what I mean by this is that renegade firms are not actually looking for more clients. They're looking for the right clients. And so they're really able to be a little bit bolder, whether that's in their brand presence, in the way that they message, the way that they talk about the work that they do. Um, another thing that I think really makes these kind of firms stand out is their ability to say no to things. And like, this is a big, big difference in this industry. A lot of firms are dedicated, like I said earlier, to like being acts of service people. And so they become a little bit of yes people or people pleasers. But the real renegade firms are like, I do not do that service or I do not work with that industry or, you know, I love that for you. But that's not, you know, who I'm here to lead, who I'm here to help. And they also have a mentality of partnership and community. And so what's so cool is the flip side of like being better about their boundaries perhaps, is that they're really willing to, like, come to a space like this and say like, no, that's not a client. I'm here to serve. But if that's something you're an expert in, we can partner on that. And that's one of the things that I'm really excited about, that we're seeing in this space is more and more people recognizing that they're not actually each other's competitors, and that they can build relationships with other renegade firms and go to market with different services that they couldn't do alone. Blake Oliver: [00:12:10] What about you, Wes? What are you seeing? Renegade firms prioritizing in terms of values or just, you know, what they're doing, like how they're showing themselves to the world? Wesley McDonald: [00:12:20] I think they prioritize community. I think just echoing what Madeline said, it's they want to help their community. They want to lead with context and tell their peers what's working for them, what isn't working for them. You know, we talked about stats earlier today about number of people leaving the accounting profession, the number of people entering the accounting profession. So there are the clients who are out there. So it's not like there's a huge fight over clients. There's a fight over service. It's. What services can we offer? How can we leverage tools differently? So I really believe communities at the heart of what those renegade accounting firms are all about. Blake Oliver: [00:12:55] So you have worked in multiple industries, not just accounting in go to market roles. So what can we learn as a profession from outside of accounting that could help us innovate, be more, uh, break the mold, you know, be less traditional? Wesley McDonald: [00:13:13] Yeah. It's interesting. I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago, and there was a ferocious debate between two different accountants to talk about the go to market model, whether it's traditional go to market model where accountants are selling their own services, or there's a new model where they bring in sales professionals. And I think there's apprehension to move to that sales model. But I think that really unlocks a lot for a lot of people. So it's using people and use people who are best at what they do. It might be someone who's got a marketing background, who's moved into sales. Can they go and acquire me leads? Um, it might be someone who's, you know, has some accounting background or some financial services background who can take those leads and nurture them and turn them into like sales qualified leads. And then it comes down to the accountant to come in at the end and be the heavy hitter and close, close the account and really explain what the benefit of working with them is. So I think that's the big kind of step that the accounting community needs to take. It's like really adopt that full cycle sales motion that I think people are apprehensive to take. Blake Oliver: [00:14:08] And bring in folks from outside of the profession. I'm a career changer. Uh, I was a musician before I became an accountant, and I feel like when I entered the profession, I came in with fresh eyes. I never worked in a public accounting firm before I started one. And so when I did that, I didn't have these preconceived notions or ideas of how things were supposed to be done. And I made a lot of mistakes, but it also gave me an advantage in a lot of ways. I kind of feel like Wes that relays is is similar in that sense. Right? Because it's, it's a, it's a bank, but it's a tech company that, you know, I mean relays a it's not technically a bank, it's a what's the what's the terminology. It's a modern banking platform. Wesley McDonald: [00:14:57] Software and. Blake Oliver: [00:14:58] Software. But it's really like if you, you know, you you look at it, it's like a software layer on top of a traditional bank that solves the problems of traditional banks. And like you come to it with fresh eyes. Wesley McDonald: [00:15:13] 100%. Like if you were to come to the office, you'd see people from all different walks of life. So we have people in compliance and regulatory come from a banking background. That's kind of a necessary thing that we need to have. But when I go to a bank, everyone kind of comes out with a finance degree from a university. Um, maybe they have a master's degree or a college, and then they go into banking versus what really does is we take people from different industries and different skill sets who can empathize with partners and clients who know the different approaches to dealing with customer issues. And we put a banking lens on that. So I think relays really led with that in terms of bringing a really cross section of people who can be powerful and provide their perspective in a good way. Blake Oliver: [00:15:51] What advice would you give to a firm leader who wants to push boundaries but fears client or staff backlash? Madeline Reeves: [00:16:01] So I think this is one of those things where, as a leader, we have to learn how to corral people. Um, I was actually texting with my CEO earlier and she made this really important comment, which is that, like, even if you have team members who it's their job technically, like, you are the keeper of your culture inside of your firm. And so oftentimes when you're trying to like push boundaries or where the leaders that are bringing new ideas to the forefront, you know, and we find friction, there's perhaps something like a layer deeper under under it in the culture. And I think people fear like shifts and changes because they worry about what does it mean for them. And there's this balance as you grow your business where you have to, you know, you can't like hand-hold everybody every step of the way. But also you have to find these moments where you can create solidity and like ground people in, like you're safe here, kind of. And so I find this for myself. I, you know, am often like five, ten, 15 steps ahead of my team because that's where I like to be. I see myself as a visionary, but I have to remember that not everybody lives out there. And so I have to ensure that either I'm figuring out ways to, like, come back and have those conversations. Madeline Reeves: [00:17:07] We do it actually, from a ritual that I learned that when I was working for Intuit, Intuit does a quarterly call called The State of the company. And back when I worked there, it was just this really important moment where when you have a team that large to get everybody in the same boat rowing in the same direction. And so that's one of the few things that I learned from that leadership experience was like, okay, we're going to have a state of the company meeting inside of our business. We don't do it quarterly. We do it twice a year. But that's this moment where before I like, run off, you know, 15 steps in the other direction. I'm like, come on with me. I can ground everybody in like, this is where we're at. This is why we're making these decisions. And the why piece, I think is very, very important. Because if you don't explain the thought process behind things, people will kind of make up their own stories. And that can create like uncertainty as opposed to if you give people the bigger why as to why you're making the changes or the decisions you're making, then they can get on board for those shifts in a different way and even buy in into that change. Blake Oliver: [00:18:06] I totally agree, I used to just tell people what we were going to do. I would make my plans behind the scenes, and then I'd lay out the grand plan without really explaining the why. And I don't know why I did that. I guess it's because I figured people didn't want to know the why. It would. It might scare them. But as I've grown as a leader, I realized that that's the thing that matters the most. Like getting everyone on board with the why you're doing something is is the key. And then the how it happens, they'll figure that out. If you have the right people, you know, you don't. It's it's it's a it's it's empowering for people. So and I think that's, that's just so different than in a traditional firm where it's sort of like work is, is handed down from on top. Right. It's like it's it's very much that pyramid shape where decisions are made by a kind of select group and that, you know, partner group is just they make the decisions and everybody else executes them like very much like a, like a military hierarchy or something like that. But it doesn't it doesn't like I don't see renegade firms doing that. It's much more collaborative. Yeah. Madeline Reeves: [00:19:23] Yeah, yeah. And I also think that renegade firms, one of the things that we've had some really interesting conversations about in the industry this year are breaking that traditional model. Um, and, and it's not just like, you know, we saw some folks experiment with like, oh, we're just like a whole horizontal culture. And I don't think that quite works either. Like, it's people looking around and being like, wait, who's in charge around here? Right. And so there is a necessary like leadership layer. But what we've seen is folks kind of figuring out new ways to get buy in from stakeholders inside the firm, or creating new operating models or confirm models or these different ways. Um, like, my business model is something we call creative collective. And so we've created a new operating structure because we wanted to figure out ways that tied back to people's intrinsic motivation, because again, you can tell people to do the work and you can pay people to do the work, but to actually get people to want to show up and fully do the work, it has to be aligned around the things that genuinely motivate them as a human. And so what I think that we're seeing, especially in this new generation of workers that are coming in, is they're not motivated by the same things that people used to be motivated by. And so this is where we talk about, like the talent gap in the profession is like there are a lot of young people who are coming out of school, and there's nothing exciting to them about working 90 hours a week during tax season. They're like, hard pass, like, I'm leaving, you know? And if we're going to solve for that, I think the structure has to change. And so that's one of the things I see renegade firms doing is saying like, wait a second. If I left a big firm that was having this top down structure, why would I then go repeat that same model at a smaller scale inside my firm? And how can I change that? Blake Oliver: [00:21:00] And it doesn't have to be big things. Uh, one of the things that we did that was renegade. 15 years ago was, say, you can work for our firm and you don't have to work full time. You can work part time from home 20 or 30 hours a week. And that's like a revelation for people, right? Like, and you're not going to get punished in your career for it. Wesley McDonald: [00:21:25] Yeah. And I think to echo what Madeline saying, it's to operate a traditional firm, things need to exist in traditional silos that don't exist anymore, Like 30 years ago, people wouldn't look at their colleague next to them and say, I make this much. How much do you make? That happens in the workplace these days. Yeah. So you have to expect that people are sharing information. So if you're going to share information with one person, you should probably share it with everyone and not try to gatekeep that information because that creates a culture of secrecy. And then there's conversations happening at the lower levels that people at the top levels aren't aware of, and that just creates friction across the org. Blake Oliver: [00:21:59] I feel like in specifically with compensation, one of the most renegade things you can do is have like open compensation. There's a few firms that I've heard of that do that, where everyone knows everyone's comp, or there's a formulaic way of determining it. And like tech companies do this a lot now so you don't have to like negotiate. Mhm. Um, it ends up being more equitable and and people actually like that. It's interesting. Wesley McDonald: [00:22:27] Yeah. On the most successful sales teams I've been a part of, there's a leaderboard that shows exactly how much people have attained in their salary in that quarter, which is a wild concept to think about in some industries. But in like tech sales, it's competitive, but it lifts everybody up like a rising tide lifts all boats. Blake Oliver: [00:22:41] It lets the people who like it gives people something to shoot for, right? It's like, look at these top performers and how well they're doing. It's it's funny actually, in accounting firms, uh, one of the biggest secrets is how much the partners make. Speaker3: [00:22:52] Mhm. Blake Oliver: [00:22:53] But if we want everybody to want to be a partner, why don't we tell them you know. Speaker3: [00:22:58] Mhm. Blake Oliver: [00:22:59] Right. Like maybe they wouldn't quit 2 or 3 years in if they knew that. It's a really really good profession to be in. Madeline Reeves: [00:23:05] And I and I think with that level of transparency and I'm especially saying this for women in the profession, we need not just pay transparency but pathway transparency. Blake Oliver: [00:23:13] Yes. Madeline Reeves: [00:23:13] So you can't just say like you can be a partner too. And here's how much money you can make. But we need clear paths to that positioning. Blake Oliver: [00:23:21] Yes. That for me that was that was the reason I left. Well, there were many reasons, but if there had been a clear path to partner, I might have stayed in public accounting, but there wasn't. And I got an offer in tech and it was for more money. And when you have a clear option for more money and equity in a startup, but you have no clear path to the partnership, like what are you going to choose? So I chose tech. Um, so I guess, you know, bringing it back to the firms. I wonder what Wes you know, I know, I know you didn't prepare to answer this question, but I'm curious, like, how would you design like that pathway for, you know, like somebody going into the leadership ranks of an accounting firm, given your experience in, like, sales development leadership? Wesley McDonald: [00:24:13] Yeah, I think in today's workplace, especially with the younger people entering the workforce, you can't anchor it to time. It's got to be based on like milestones that they're hitting based on performance, based on how they're lifting up the rest of their team. That's something really anchor to it. Relay and promotions. It's you're performing. You're hitting all of your numbers, but how are you lifting everybody else? So tying it specifically to once you hit these hard numbers and also these kind of more broad characteristics of performance, you're ready to move to the next level. And it's basically defined as you're ready to move to the next level as soon as you're performing at that level. But I think traditionally things have been gatekept to time and seat. Yeah. Blake Oliver: [00:24:54] Time sheets. Wesley McDonald: [00:24:54] Right. Time and seat with the expectation you're going to hit your revenue number. And then once you do five years, you're gonna move up to the next level. But you really got to anchor it to those milestones. Madeline Reeves: [00:25:03] I'll just add here that one piece that Wes mentioned is extremely, extremely important. So in my other lifetime, I did a lot of sales development and building out of sales teams. And for a while it was very common in the model that we were just tying it to individual contributors. And so they had their individual metrics. But as you build your firm, we found whereas we built our sales teams, we found it was equally important to tie an IC number and weighed it against a team number, and the reason was because it created a culture of collaboration. Because if you have people on your team who think the only way up is their own performance, your whole team is going to be fighting against each other. They're all going to be competing against each other. They're not going to compare notes as to like, oh man, I had this big win with a client, or I had this breakthrough conversation, or I discovered this new tool that's going to unlock the next line of service. But if you have a portion of the way that they get paid, or the way they become partner, or the way that they earn equity having to do with their work together as a team, suddenly you unlock and incentivize a culture where people are going to share notes, they're going to show what's working, they're going to unlock new efficiencies among the team. And so we saw performance like double when we made that a part of the process, because people were suddenly willing to turn to the teammate next to them and show them what was working. Blake Oliver: [00:26:20] It's so different from the traditional mentality, where it's like pit high performers against each other and try to get them to, like, work harder by, you know, showing them each others, you know, numbers or. Hours like the email that we got every week that showed like the high billers in the firm. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. Speaker3: [00:26:39] Oh, yeah. It's so common. Blake Oliver: [00:26:40] Yeah. Like, that's like the most common. Performance incentive mechanism that I'm aware of that happens on a weekly basis inside of traditional firms. And it it works. But you have to think about the unintended consequences of that. What that does to your collaboration in your firm. Um, one more question before we go. And uh, this is always actually my favorite question I get to ask. And that is about your mistakes. So so this is the thing about being a renegade is that you do things differently and you make mistakes and owning those and accepting them. And, you know, being honest about them with your team is, uh, is important. So because we value that, let's talk about that. What is one mistake that you made when trying something unconventional. And what did you learn from it? Madeline Reeves: [00:27:30] So this is not a popular one to share publicly, but it is on the relay website. So if you want to read the whole horror story or talk to me about. Blake Oliver: [00:27:37] It's a case study. Madeline Reeves: [00:27:38] It's a case study. Um, so I had a very senior employee inside of my company commit fraud, um, by trying to manipulate our sales process because we had built a renegade model where we were comping our top performers off of their close rates. And so they got a percentage of the deal, which we felt like was a really good way to incentivize them to, um, you know, provide a better service, really scope things properly. And yet we were like not having a lot of things closed. And I was like, what's going on? And I ran into a prospect, a client that we really wanted to work with. And she was like, yeah, I really want to work with you guys. But like $10,000 a month for like small business marketing is like way outside of my budget. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? That's not our price range. And so I, we were using ignition at the time. So I got into the system and I saw that all of our pricing had been increased really substantially, and she was doing it because she thought, okay, I'm still going to make a margin off the deal. And I was like, you didn't think I was going to notice that you jacked up all the pricing inside of our proposal system. And so as a result, I uncovered that she was, you know, actively trying to commit fraud inside the company. The good and bad news of this was that I had digital banking. And so I basically was on the way to a major industry conference. I was on the way to AICPA engage when I discovered this. Madeline Reeves: [00:28:54] And I had to lock down all of my banks, like, right away because she had access. She was that level of employee. And I was freaking out because I was like, I have to check into the hotel. I'm here for a week. Like, Chase was like, we're going to issue you a new card. And luckily, Yusuf is a friend of mine. And he was like, oh yeah, just like download a new, uh, like a, like an Apple Pay version of the card. Like you can do a virtual card and then, you know, save that on your phone. You can do tap pay for the week. And so it saved the day for me. But it taught me a huge lesson when it comes to trust but verify. Um, there are a lot of people that will come into your organization and promise that they're going to be high performers, and we want to believe people. I'm really the type of leader that loves to see the best in people, but you have to have systems and processes and placeholders in place to verify that people are going to act the right way, because I think that whenever we're doing something as sensitive as moving around money, people can have the wrong mindset, they can feel scarce or struggle in their own lives and feel motivated to do the wrong things, even if they were somebody you thought that you could trust. So for me, that one was a scary one. But it didn't cost us much. And you know, it was a good lesson to learn earlier on. Blake Oliver: [00:30:04] What about you, Wes? Do you have a, uh, a story you'd like to share? Wesley McDonald: [00:30:08] Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me, it's kind of the opposite of being a renegade. It was. I believed in, like, the linear career path. Like I grew up in a somewhat conservative household, like. Like my dad's a lawyer. My mom worked in sales, and I got a job at a university working as a fixed income broker, a great career. And I did that for a number of years, and I got promoted once and I felt good about it. Then I kind of looked around the room and I was like, everyone there was had been doing it for 30 years, like, can I do this for 25 more years? Like, is that what I want to do? Um, and then I kind of made the leap of faith to take the non-linear path. And the non-linear path leads you in so many directions, and you learn so many things along the way. So I went from that into sales, from that back into consulting, back into sales at another company, then took kind of the sales and consulting and built a sales team out of consulting firm, which kind of led me to realize. So it's understanding the non-linear path is can take you in so many different places. And the linear path works for a lot of people and not trying to knock that. But I had stopped my learning journey. I wasn't learning anything every day, and I want to be a lifelong learner. So going to jumping into these kind of areas of discomfort and taking the non-linear path, I think served me very, very well or has served me well to date. Blake Oliver: [00:31:23] It's not easy though. I bet at the time you were, you were. It was a struggle, right when you're going through it. Wesley McDonald: [00:31:30] But yeah, I think I wasn't worried about myself. I think a lot of times people worry about what it looks like externally. Like, what are my friends going to think? What am my family going to think like? Right, right. So it's just kind of be true to yourself and find your way. Um, each person's got their own way and, you know, listen to your heart. Blake Oliver: [00:31:47] Yeah. My mistake was, uh, majoring in music at the most expensive university in the, uh, in the country at the time. Um, but actually, it's funny because, like, now, in retrospect, that was a great thing to do, because what did I learn? I learned how to teach myself anything. Right? If you can sit in a practice room for six hours a day and learn how to play a concerto, that's all just breaking problems down into literally measure by measure, note by note. And everything in life, or at least in accounting, is like that. It's amazing. Um, many things. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that a lot of times, what we see as mistakes and we don't want to admit. Once we admit that mistake, we can learn from it. And and so I, um, what I'm trying to do right now is, is learn how to admit my mistakes to my team. You think that's, like, weak? I always thought that would be weak. You know, I never admit mistakes. Um, and I'm learning more and more that actually, uh, it's like a position of strength like that. The team values it. So. Well, I don't know where we go from there, so I'm just going to end this episode. Thank you so much, Madeleine and Wes. Really great having you here. And thanks to everyone who joined us live for this episode, the Advisory Amplify Tour.