Latest / Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast / The latest on Tarik Skubal, Alex Bregman and more

Transcript

The latest on Tarik Skubal, Alex Bregman and more · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: And welcome into another episode of Tiger Territory, part of
0:12
Speaker 1: the Foul Territory Network. Got to try Tiger's podcast. I'm
0:15
Speaker 1: curious sectly with me as always a man who has
0:18
Speaker 1: long lived his life by the inverted pyramid, but not.
0:22
Speaker 2: That one that just came out.
0:24
Speaker 1: He's Coddy, David Eagan. How you doing?
0:26
Speaker 3: Hey, nothing wrong with the little red meat, right, not
0:29
Speaker 3: trying to start too much of a controversy here.
0:32
Speaker 1: Well this is a controversial time, Cody.
0:34
Speaker 2: That's good, all right.
0:35
Speaker 3: Well, this is not gonna be the podcast where we
0:38
Speaker 3: solve the new health pyramid. We do have about one
0:42
Speaker 3: month until pitchers and catchers report. We've been saying it's
0:44
Speaker 3: sneaking up. It's really sneaking up. Now. About one month
0:48
Speaker 3: from now we will be in Lakeland. Players will be
0:51
Speaker 3: doing baseball activities and organized fashion. That should be fun.
0:55
Speaker 3: In the meantime, I don't know, it's anyone been talking
0:59
Speaker 3: about anything, and that's universe since since our last episode,
1:02
Speaker 3: anything else happened, any other anything else in the news.
1:05
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, Cody, I'll tell you. Speaking of health,
1:09
Speaker 1: the health of the organization is and its reputation, I
1:14
Speaker 1: guess would be a way to go about it. Uh definitely,
1:19
Speaker 1: Uh definitely up up for public debate as we continue
1:22
Speaker 1: with these metaphors. But since so last last time we talked,
1:26
Speaker 1: we knew that school and the Tigers were not going
1:29
Speaker 1: to come to an agreement prior to the deadline on Thursday.
1:35
Speaker 1: Since then and shortly after we stopped recording, but we
1:38
Speaker 1: knew we were gonna have a chance to talk about it.
1:39
Speaker 1: There's gonna be more stuff coming out. We have reported
1:43
Speaker 1: numbers coming from each side. So Schooble and his team
1:49
Speaker 1: Force Corp. Filed for thirty two million dollars for the
1:54
Speaker 1: twenty twenty sixth season for his services. The Tigers filed
1:59
Speaker 1: for a number higher than nineteen point seventy five, but lower.
2:04
Speaker 3: Than they filed for nineteen million.
2:07
Speaker 2: They filed for nineteen They were.
2:08
Speaker 3: Willing to offer or made some sort of offer based
2:12
Speaker 3: on reporting from Ken Rosenthal, and I can confirm this.
2:14
Speaker 3: By the way, they were willing to offer more than
2:18
Speaker 3: David Price Scott, which is the arbitration record for a
2:21
Speaker 3: pitcher nineteen point seven to five. Whatever that offer was
2:25
Speaker 3: was less than twenty million, so a pretty limited range
2:28
Speaker 3: could have been nineteen point seven six or nineteen point eight
2:32
Speaker 3: or nineteen point nine. But it's not like it's not
2:36
Speaker 3: like that offer was substantially more. They were perhaps willing
2:38
Speaker 3: to go a little higher had there been negotiations. From
2:42
Speaker 3: what I understand, there wasn't a whole lot of back
2:44
Speaker 3: and forth. It's undlike Trek Skubel and Boris Corp was
2:47
Speaker 3: pretty set on shooting for the moon in this negotiation.
2:52
Speaker 3: So when the Tigers went back to ultimately file number,
2:54
Speaker 3: for some reason, they dropped it back to a flat nineteen.
3:01
Speaker 1: And I apologize for getting that confused, but that's the
3:04
Speaker 1: essence of this situation, is that like, we were willing
3:07
Speaker 1: to do do X, you know, reportedly, but then why
3:11
Speaker 1: didn't you just do the X? You know what I mean? Like,
3:14
Speaker 1: there's nothing that really stopped you from doing it. And
3:17
Speaker 1: so I guess everyone knows that the basics by now, Cody,
3:21
Speaker 1: But like, what's the read here? Because there's an automatic
3:25
Speaker 1: And I will say this a lot of times when
3:28
Speaker 1: it comes to players salary stuff. Historically, you know a
3:32
Speaker 1: lot of people's gut reaction is the side with the
3:34
Speaker 1: team because players selfish and greedy and you know, blah
3:37
Speaker 1: blah blah. That is certainly not what we're experiencing right now.
3:42
Speaker 1: What we are experiencing right now is the Tigers from
3:46
Speaker 1: the fan base from I would say, general MLB media,
3:52
Speaker 1: and then also you know, from from just MLB fans.
3:59
Speaker 1: How are we guarded as kind of the I want
4:03
Speaker 1: to say villain. Villain's too strong of a word, but
4:05
Speaker 1: sort of like in the wrong here, because because the
4:08
Speaker 1: gap is so large, no one's saying, Schooble, why are
4:10
Speaker 1: you asking for this? People are saying, Tigers, why did
4:13
Speaker 1: you only offer this number in in uh in this process?
4:18
Speaker 1: So I guess, I guess I'll just ask you, Cody, like,
4:21
Speaker 1: from your perspective, what is the read on the situation?
4:26
Speaker 2: I think what is the best.
4:27
Speaker 1: Read on the situation is a good way to kind
4:30
Speaker 1: of start this conversation because it can go in so
4:32
Speaker 1: many different you know, valleys and hills and avenues, But like,
4:36
Speaker 1: what's the best way to kind of read.
4:38
Speaker 3: I think my read on it is like get your
4:41
Speaker 3: popcorn ready, it's it's going to be a show. I
4:45
Speaker 3: have very little idea of what is going to happen
4:49
Speaker 3: in this arbitration hearing. I tried to write about some
4:52
Speaker 3: of the ins and outs and the nuances of it.
4:57
Speaker 3: Ter Scouble is probably the best place in baseball. Certainly
5:01
Speaker 3: the best left handed pitcher in baseball deserves to make
5:04
Speaker 3: a lot of money, and he deserves whatever he gets
5:06
Speaker 3: in free agency, which will be a record for a
5:08
Speaker 3: starting picture. He deserves it all. I hate to be
5:11
Speaker 3: the guy to take up for the team here, but
5:14
Speaker 3: I am a little surprised at how strong the backlashes
5:17
Speaker 3: for the Tigers saying this was a low ball, saying
5:19
Speaker 3: it was cheap nineteen million. I mean they could offered
5:23
Speaker 3: a little more. I kind of think that number should
5:25
Speaker 3: at least have a two in it in front of it, right,
5:28
Speaker 3: But again, you look at the arbitration projections. MLB trade
5:32
Speaker 3: rumors had seventeen point eight. Spot track was more generous
5:36
Speaker 3: twenty two point five. You know, had they offered twenty
5:39
Speaker 3: twenty one, would people still be this mad? I don't know.
5:43
Speaker 3: Scott Boris and bort Score. I think there's a genius
5:47
Speaker 3: move by them to be clear, Let's ask for whatever
5:50
Speaker 3: and just see see what we can get. Because this
5:53
Speaker 3: is a back to back cy young winner. You could
5:55
Speaker 3: argue there's never quite been another arbitration case like it.
5:59
Speaker 3: So I plot Scott bores for taking this shot. But
6:02
Speaker 3: I don't think the Tigers aren't necessarily trying to be
6:04
Speaker 3: cheap here. I think they are operating very much within
6:07
Speaker 3: the norms of the arbitration system. Trek Scuble filed at
6:11
Speaker 3: thirty two million. That would be a record for any
6:14
Speaker 3: arbitration player. That would surpass Juan Soto, who got thirty
6:18
Speaker 3: one million just a couple of years ago. Wan Soto
6:22
Speaker 3: for the record twenty eight point four career war at
6:25
Speaker 3: that time, Trek Scouble at this point seventeen point nine
6:29
Speaker 3: career war. Trek Scoopble is great. He is not as good.
6:33
Speaker 3: He does not have the six year body of work
6:35
Speaker 3: that Juan Soto did. This would be more than shohe
6:39
Speaker 3: O Tani got as a two way player. I think
6:43
Speaker 3: he deserves to have the arbitration race for a picture.
6:46
Speaker 3: But if you just look at the history of these things,
6:48
Speaker 3: what the Tigers offered is not crazy out of line
6:52
Speaker 3: with his history from Bravaldez got eighteen just a year ago.
6:56
Speaker 3: Trek Scoople is getting more than from Bravaldez. He's getting
6:59
Speaker 3: nineteen now. He's a back to back sy young winner.
7:02
Speaker 3: Should he get I don't know twenty twenty one, twenty two.
7:04
Speaker 3: I think that's a very fair argument. But any team
7:08
Speaker 3: would be out of their minds to offer thirty two
7:12
Speaker 3: million via arbitration. Now, the real number of Schoopl's worth,
7:16
Speaker 3: I mean, his market value is astronomical, but in terms
7:20
Speaker 3: of the arbitration system, which unfortunately can limit what star
7:25
Speaker 3: players make, it's probably somewhere between nineteen and thirty two.
7:29
Speaker 3: And that's why trying to predict what's going to happen
7:32
Speaker 3: here is really fascinating to me, Just like who's going
7:36
Speaker 3: to win this or I think the mature thing to
7:38
Speaker 3: do is to keep negotiating. My sense conversations I've had,
7:43
Speaker 3: I'm not optimistic that there's going to be a lot
7:45
Speaker 3: of continued negotiation. So if this goes to trial, is
7:51
Speaker 3: any committee going to award Trek School a twenty two
7:55
Speaker 3: million dollar raise? That would be more than double the
7:57
Speaker 3: biggest rays in arbitration history. But if they're not willing
8:03
Speaker 3: to do that, would they say, Okay, we're only going
8:05
Speaker 3: to give Trek scouble nineteen million dollars. That's why this
8:08
Speaker 3: is fascinating, That's why this is really interesting. I'm not
8:10
Speaker 3: quite sure who's gonna win. A lot of people think
8:13
Speaker 3: this is a slam dunk for Scott Boris. I wonder
8:17
Speaker 3: if it's closer to sixty forty tigers just because Bores Corp.
8:20
Speaker 3: Can claim precedents don't matter, But an arbitration panel is
8:24
Speaker 3: still going to look heavily at precedent. And I don't
8:27
Speaker 3: know if they're going to be willing to give Trek
8:29
Speaker 3: Scouble a twenty two plus million dollar raise in the
8:32
Speaker 3: in arbitration.
8:37
Speaker 1: This is a very complex story. Are there any bad actors?
8:41
Speaker 1: Cody and I will discuss that after a word from
8:45
Speaker 1: our sponsors.
8:47
Speaker 4: Hey, make good eats at home part of your twenty
8:50
Speaker 4: twenty six New Year's resolution.
8:52
Speaker 3: Hello fresh is what we're talking about.
8:54
Speaker 5: Here, steak, seafood, whatever options you want to have, stone
8:57
Speaker 5: fruit to corn on the CP Scott, I know you're
9:00
Speaker 5: a big stone fruit fan.
9:01
Speaker 3: Hey, you've eaten it all I have.
9:03
Speaker 5: I've tried a lot of things, but HelloFresh always delivers.
9:05
Speaker 5: They're fresh, delicious meals that you get to cook so
9:10
Speaker 5: you feel like you actually accomplish something when you get
9:12
Speaker 5: eat them after you're done cooking.
9:14
Speaker 4: Over one hundred mouth watering recipes each week. It's made
9:17
Speaker 4: with wholesome ingredients like one hundred percent antibiotic and hormone
9:21
Speaker 4: free chicken. Because when dinner tastes this good, nothing hits
9:25
Speaker 4: like home cooking. Go to HelloFresh dot com slash ft
9:29
Speaker 4: ten FM to get ten free meals plus a freeze
9:33
Speaker 4: willing knife, a one hundred and forty four to ninety
9:35
Speaker 4: nine value on your third box offer valid while supplies last.
9:40
Speaker 4: Free meals applied as discount on first box New subscribers
9:44
Speaker 4: only varies by a plan. Get America's number one meal kit,
9:48
Speaker 4: Hello Fresh.
9:51
Speaker 2: All right, coming back here, Cody.
9:54
Speaker 1: Look, the bottom line is that the more I read
9:57
Speaker 1: about this, the more I kind of get a sense
9:59
Speaker 1: of the situation, Like it's perfect for bors Co with
10:05
Speaker 1: the headline with the gap. Here, we got this graphic here,
10:08
Speaker 1: you guys can if your subscribed on YouTube, you can
10:10
Speaker 1: you can see what we're talking about. Thirteen million dollar gap,
10:13
Speaker 1: largest in MLB history. There's some second guessing that can
10:20
Speaker 1: go into how this negotiation or process played out to
10:24
Speaker 1: this point, but I don't believe anyone is doing anything
10:28
Speaker 1: other than acting in their best interest. And I would
10:32
Speaker 1: kind of say they're partner's best interest. And what I
10:36
Speaker 1: mean by that is, you just know that the Tigers
10:41
Speaker 1: would be looked at terribly by other MLB teams that
10:44
Speaker 1: they went ahead and like offer thirty to school Bley.
10:49
Speaker 1: You know, every other MLB team because they are partners,
10:51
Speaker 1: would be like yo, like what the is this? You know,
10:54
Speaker 1: and then school Bol and bors Co are taking advantage,
10:57
Speaker 1: and I mean that complimentary take get advantage of the
11:00
Speaker 1: situation based on his accolades, based on like his popularity,
11:06
Speaker 1: just how good he is, like maybe a little bit
11:08
Speaker 1: of a I want to say, desperate Tiger's team, but
11:10
Speaker 1: a Tiger's team that has had been bad for a
11:13
Speaker 1: long time and that all of a sudden is good
11:14
Speaker 1: and he's played, you know, quite a significant role in
11:17
Speaker 1: that to try to, like you said, shoot for the
11:20
Speaker 1: moon and establish a new precedent. And again another part
11:24
Speaker 1: of this like set of circumstances that's rather unique, as
11:28
Speaker 1: we have a labor dispute coming, like it's a you know,
11:32
Speaker 1: it feels pretty pretty certain at this point. So I
11:34
Speaker 1: don't believe anybody is acting in bad faith. I don't
11:37
Speaker 1: believe there's any bad actors here. I think everything that
11:42
Speaker 1: has led to this point has been pretty purposeful. From
11:46
Speaker 1: school Bal's side, and like they want to kind of see,
11:50
Speaker 1: like how far can we push this process? How far
11:54
Speaker 1: can how much can we get this arbitration panel to
11:59
Speaker 1: like see our side based on these circumstances, because while
12:03
Speaker 1: they're unique, there's nothing to say that it can't happen again,
12:06
Speaker 1: and they're gonna want to use the school bol situation
12:09
Speaker 1: as leverage for any future hearings and arbitration processes. So
12:15
Speaker 1: to me, everybody is everybody is doing right by themselves.
12:24
Speaker 1: Now does that necessarily mean that we're gonna have some happy,
12:28
Speaker 1: go lucky conclusion? I don't know this like it like,
12:32
Speaker 1: it does have the possibility of getting ugly, and we
12:35
Speaker 1: have seen examples from other Boris clients in the past
12:39
Speaker 1: of like having these situations get ugly, and it does
12:42
Speaker 1: ruin relationships. I think if you're a Tigers fan, you
12:46
Speaker 1: should be less concerned about did they lowball schoobl did
12:50
Speaker 1: Schoolble asks for too much? And more concerned about, like,
12:54
Speaker 1: is this a professional process? From each side? Is Scott
12:58
Speaker 1: Harris and Chris Illin? Are they personally offended by this?
13:03
Speaker 3: You know?
13:04
Speaker 1: Are Is Schooble and Boris Coo? Are they going to
13:07
Speaker 1: hold this against the Tigers? You know, moving forward and
13:11
Speaker 1: whatever future negotiations may have, maybe they will. But the
13:16
Speaker 1: but that is what you should hope for as more
13:19
Speaker 1: than anything, is a somewhat of a mandible resolution, because
13:25
Speaker 1: the halfway point is something that you and Ken both
13:28
Speaker 1: wrote about, where it's like when it's the two numbers,
13:31
Speaker 1: the panel tends to think, the panel, I should say,
13:34
Speaker 1: tends to think that if it's one cent, if the
13:37
Speaker 1: value is one cent less than the lower number, then
13:40
Speaker 1: the lower number will probably be what they designed.
13:44
Speaker 3: Is it more isoople worth more or less than twenty
13:46
Speaker 3: five point five million? That's the midpoint. That is maybe
13:51
Speaker 3: not the only way this will be looked at, but
13:53
Speaker 3: this is one way the panel might look at it from.
13:56
Speaker 3: And that's very fascinating in itself because his work, as
14:00
Speaker 3: I said, somewhere it's going to somewhere between nineteen and
14:03
Speaker 3: thirty two. I think the most important point you made,
14:07
Speaker 3: Kieran was this may be a prelude to a bigger
14:11
Speaker 3: labor fight. I think it's entirely possible. Scott Boris sees
14:15
Speaker 3: this as the perfect test case, the perfect trial balloon
14:18
Speaker 3: to both make a point and potentially kind of blow
14:22
Speaker 3: up the arbitration system, or at least how the arbitration
14:24
Speaker 3: system works for the game's stars. They are players and
14:28
Speaker 3: part of the union who really like arbitration. It gives
14:30
Speaker 3: some negotiation before players hit free agency, but we've seen
14:35
Speaker 3: it star players don't quite get their worth when they're
14:37
Speaker 3: already established for six years, especially pictures. Why is Scott
14:42
Speaker 3: Boris floating thirty two million for Skoogle? Probably because it
14:46
Speaker 3: is ridiculous that no picture has gotten more than David
14:49
Speaker 3: Price got eleven years ago. Now. They are a wide
14:54
Speaker 3: variety of reasons for that. Here if you're watching on YouTube,
14:59
Speaker 3: here are some of the other highest earning ar pitchers.
15:03
Speaker 3: And one way of looking at this is no one's
15:05
Speaker 3: been quite as dominant as Tarrek Scubele in the arbitration
15:09
Speaker 3: process for a long time now. Scooble struggled, was injured
15:13
Speaker 3: earlier in his career, doesn't have the same career war
15:17
Speaker 3: David Price had, doesn't have near as many innings as
15:20
Speaker 3: David Price had. David Price was also a Super two player,
15:23
Speaker 3: so he got to negotiate an arbitration four times instead
15:27
Speaker 3: of the normal three. But Scoble has a better career era.
15:30
Speaker 3: He's a much better strikeout pitcher. He's been more dominant
15:33
Speaker 3: the past two seasons. Max Freed was in similar territs
15:38
Speaker 3: where he had been injured. He made I think thirteen
15:41
Speaker 3: point five in his fifth year and then was injured
15:45
Speaker 3: most of that season, so rather than pushed for a
15:47
Speaker 3: raise that would have taken him over nineteen point seventy five,
15:51
Speaker 3: he barely got a jump in his final year of arbitration.
15:54
Speaker 3: So there have been some strange circumstances here. Maybe the
15:57
Speaker 3: best comp, and a comp I believe the Tigers a
16:00
Speaker 3: pretty hard is Jacob de Gram. As Jacob de Gram
16:03
Speaker 3: has the record for largest rays in arbitration history nine
16:07
Speaker 3: point six million dollars. That was actually after de Gram's
16:10
Speaker 3: fourth major league season, so he made seventeen million, or
16:15
Speaker 3: was going to make seventeen million, but then he signed
16:18
Speaker 3: a contract extension that nullified those final two years of arbitration,
16:23
Speaker 3: So we don't know what he would have got at
16:25
Speaker 3: a similar point in Schoobl's career. Let's say de Gram
16:29
Speaker 3: got another nine point six million rays because he had
16:31
Speaker 3: another really good season, so he would have been making
16:35
Speaker 3: what twenty six ish million in his final year. That's
16:40
Speaker 3: a lot. That's a lot more than David Price, but
16:42
Speaker 3: it's also less than thirty two million, and comparing their
16:46
Speaker 3: career numbers to that point, Look, Trek Scooble is a great,
16:49
Speaker 3: great pitcher, but by pretty much every measure, Jacob de
16:53
Speaker 3: Gram was a lot better, almost double the war er plus,
16:57
Speaker 3: which is adjusted to kind of compare different different eras.
17:01
Speaker 3: Graham was at one forty eight Schoobl's at one thirty five.
17:05
Speaker 3: So you can't quite use that comparison in a room
17:08
Speaker 3: because we don't know exactly what de Graham would have
17:11
Speaker 3: got that last year. But it is an argument that says, well,
17:14
Speaker 3: schools should probably get more than David Price, but he
17:17
Speaker 3: also probably shouldn't get thirty two million dollars because Jacob
17:20
Speaker 3: deGrom probably never would have got that despite having better
17:23
Speaker 3: career numbers than Enterrek Scoobel. So there are so many
17:27
Speaker 3: factors at play. And the other thing is, yeah, the
17:29
Speaker 3: human element of this, what does it mean? Because I've
17:32
Speaker 3: been saying for a long time the schoobl thing could
17:34
Speaker 3: eventually get awkward. I've also been saying for a long
17:37
Speaker 3: time arbitration could eventually make the Tigers style, the mix
17:41
Speaker 3: and matching, the platooning that could make things awkward. I
17:44
Speaker 3: never really thought arbitration was going to be the thing
17:47
Speaker 3: that made the schoobl situation awkward. But here we are
17:50
Speaker 3: kind of combining these two worlds. And I look, this
17:55
Speaker 3: guy's under team control. But at the very least, you're
17:58
Speaker 3: entering spring training with a distraction action. You do have
18:01
Speaker 3: to wonder what are what are players saying about this?
18:06
Speaker 3: The players? You know, I'm sure players probably don't like
18:08
Speaker 3: the organization offering their ace only nineteen million, but the
18:12
Speaker 3: players at some point, the other guy's got to be
18:14
Speaker 3: tired of the constant Schooble chatter and this and that,
18:17
Speaker 3: and so I just don't think it's a good situation
18:21
Speaker 3: for the Tigers. But I don't know exactly what this
18:25
Speaker 3: resolution is going to look like here.
18:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to say, and it's hard to say
18:32
Speaker 1: now whether this will be and I and I briefly
18:36
Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier, but whether this will be an independent
18:39
Speaker 1: process or what would be essentially the rising action to
18:45
Speaker 1: some sort of climax of either trade or just a
18:52
Speaker 1: not even really in the fray free agency, like you know,
18:58
Speaker 1: period for Tek Schooble, whereas like he, you know, the
19:01
Speaker 1: Tigers are never seriously engaged or never give them serious
19:04
Speaker 1: thought or whatever. And then we and then we look
19:07
Speaker 1: back to this right now and say, well, that was
19:10
Speaker 1: that was the sign.
19:11
Speaker 2: So whether this is.
19:12
Speaker 3: Not hard to already see that coming, maybe even without
19:16
Speaker 3: without this situation. But if you want further evidence that
19:20
Speaker 3: the Tigers can't resigned Eric Skuble, here here's a good
19:23
Speaker 3: chunk of that.
19:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, very true.
19:26
Speaker 1: Well let's let me talk about that all day. But
19:29
Speaker 1: I do think it is worth mentioning we we have
19:33
Speaker 1: to Cody, just have a moment of silence for the
19:38
Speaker 1: fact that we no longer get to talk about whether
19:41
Speaker 1: Alex Bregman, another Sporest client, will be a member of
19:45
Speaker 1: the Detroit Tigers. Uh So, in case you didn't see it,
19:51
Speaker 1: Bregman spurns the Red Sox and everybody else in signs
19:55
Speaker 1: five for one seventy five with the Chicago Cubs. Apparently
19:59
Speaker 1: a big stickler that was the fact that he wanted
20:03
Speaker 1: a full no trade, so he gets the full no
20:06
Speaker 1: trade in the contract. And then also and also that
20:11
Speaker 1: the year's there, so all right, moment of silence over,
20:16
Speaker 1: we could officially move on. I do think it is
20:19
Speaker 1: worth mentioning, Like like how the Red Sox seemed like
20:22
Speaker 1: kind of superior for how like the Bregman thing kind
20:25
Speaker 1: of broke their way and then the Dever situation and
20:28
Speaker 1: then they trade him, and then they can't even re
20:32
Speaker 1: sign Alex Bregman because they don't like giving out full
20:35
Speaker 1: no trades or you know whatever. We have a we
20:37
Speaker 1: have a podcast on this network Master territory. They got that,
20:40
Speaker 1: They got that covered there very well. But another lesson
20:44
Speaker 1: in free agency, another lesson in dealing with Boris. I
20:46
Speaker 1: just thought it was worth mentioning. And then we have
20:49
Speaker 1: a graphic here, Cody. Could the Tigers take advantage of
20:54
Speaker 1: the Bregman situation in this way?
20:56
Speaker 2: Nico Horner is that? Does that make sense?
21:01
Speaker 3: We'll see. First offhe Bregmant and the Tigers were not
21:03
Speaker 3: really involved in this at all at the end and
21:06
Speaker 3: really all off season. There was maybe passive, lukewarm interest
21:10
Speaker 3: at the very most, but they were not in on
21:12
Speaker 3: Alex Bregmant. Everything they've said and everything they've done this
21:15
Speaker 3: offseason has indicated they are pretty content with their position
21:19
Speaker 3: playing group. I don't think they were interested on a
21:22
Speaker 3: long term deal for a guy in his thirties. Again,
21:25
Speaker 3: they were this time last year. But as we've talked
21:28
Speaker 3: about before, one more year of his prime gone, another
21:33
Speaker 3: year closer to the next wave. McGonagall, Max Anderson, those
21:37
Speaker 3: guys being in the big leagues. Look, whether that's right
21:40
Speaker 3: or wrong that we can save that for another episode.
21:43
Speaker 3: And we have talked about that a million times online.
21:45
Speaker 3: They weren't in it on Bregman. I thought he was
21:48
Speaker 3: always I always thought he was going to go back
21:49
Speaker 3: to the Red Sox. I was wrong. And it seems
21:51
Speaker 3: like they operated with a little less urgency there at
21:53
Speaker 3: the end, whereas the Cubs upped their urgency from a
21:57
Speaker 3: year ago. So one one of the wrinkles here Nico Horner,
22:02
Speaker 3: Cubs second baseman, somewhat shortstop. You know, Darinfield could get
22:06
Speaker 3: a little crowded. There are rumors he could potentially be
22:10
Speaker 3: on the block. There's also a pretty strong push like
22:13
Speaker 3: you Cubs, you're good right now, don't trade Nico Horner.
22:16
Speaker 3: But to view this from a Tiger's lens, if they
22:18
Speaker 3: were to trade Horner, I mean, is this a guy
22:20
Speaker 3: the Tigers should be in on. We can just look
22:23
Speaker 3: at it real quick. Nico Horner is a good player.
22:26
Speaker 3: The guy can hit a little bit two ninety seven
22:28
Speaker 3: average three forty five on base last year. Now, there's
22:32
Speaker 3: not a lot of power here, just seven home runs
22:34
Speaker 3: each of the past two seasons, and a big chunk
22:37
Speaker 3: of his value comes from stolen bases still twenty nine
22:40
Speaker 3: last year, thirty one the year before that, forty three
22:43
Speaker 3: the year before that. Tigers don't really steal base as much.
22:46
Speaker 3: Would a guy like Horner do the same thing in Detroit?
22:49
Speaker 3: Who knows? But I think the real sticking point is
22:53
Speaker 3: that Horner has mostly played second base the past three years.
22:56
Speaker 3: He's played short stop in the past. He's still grated
22:59
Speaker 3: out okay in the little shortstop he has played recently.
23:03
Speaker 3: The Tigers have a second basement in Glaber Torrez, but
23:06
Speaker 3: I think their shortstop situation is still pretty wide open. Obviously,
23:11
Speaker 3: they have a million options hove Er Baiazz like McKinstry,
23:14
Speaker 3: Kevin McGonagall. But if you wanted to get aggressive, if
23:17
Speaker 3: you wanted to push, and you believe Nico Horner could
23:20
Speaker 3: still be an average, if not above average, defensive shortstop, Look,
23:25
Speaker 3: I don't think it would hurt to kick the tires
23:27
Speaker 3: on Nico Horner a little bit. At the same time,
23:29
Speaker 3: I'm not sure he's even gonna move anywhere, So I
23:32
Speaker 3: don't know how much time we should spend on it
23:34
Speaker 3: for now.
23:36
Speaker 1: Well, look, I'll just say from a general perspective, not
23:40
Speaker 1: necessarily specific to Nico, but the situation does apply. You
23:45
Speaker 1: gotta be looking for opportunities that suddenly like, you gotta
23:50
Speaker 1: be open the opportunities to suddenly present themselves. And so
23:53
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, Okay, they're a little crowded here. Is
23:55
Speaker 1: there something here? Could the price possibly be a little
23:58
Speaker 1: bit lower than uh than maybe it otherwise would, or
24:01
Speaker 1: even just like is the phone getting picked up whereas
24:05
Speaker 1: before it probably wasn't. So I think, like, if you're
24:08
Speaker 1: a Scott Harris, you know ethos kind of guy, and
24:12
Speaker 1: you want to operate with as much flexibility as possible,
24:15
Speaker 1: this is an example of having that mindset and having
24:20
Speaker 1: and and you know, doing something about it a move
24:22
Speaker 1: like this. So again, anytime those things present themselves, I
24:25
Speaker 1: think the Tigers ought to be at least having having
24:29
Speaker 1: a meeting about it, you know.
24:30
Speaker 2: I think it is the best way.
24:31
Speaker 3: To play corner for the record one year before free agency,
24:34
Speaker 3: So that would mean somewhat of a rental and a
24:37
Speaker 3: trade that I'm sure would cost you some some attractive
24:40
Speaker 3: prospect capital, but also a guy you could acquire without
24:44
Speaker 3: blocking anyone or ruining all your future planning.
24:49
Speaker 1: All right, and uh, let's let's go to another aspect
24:54
Speaker 1: of the school bol situation. Cody, your your colleague, and
24:58
Speaker 1: our foul territory. Ken Rosenthal put in one of his
25:02
Speaker 1: offseason notebooks that you know, kudos, you know, I feel
25:06
Speaker 1: good for him. Now there's a lot more meat on
25:07
Speaker 1: the potatoes of Major League Baseball to right about than
25:10
Speaker 1: there was there for a couple of weeks ago. Is
25:12
Speaker 1: that the Tigers are kind of surveying the landscape on
25:15
Speaker 1: some veteran starting pitchers and the two that he named
25:19
Speaker 1: through his sources, Lucas Giolito and Chris Bassett, and a
25:26
Speaker 1: little nugget in there, a little nugget in there about
25:29
Speaker 1: I don't know if they'll be able to do it.
25:31
Speaker 1: And we have this up on up on our YouTube
25:33
Speaker 1: if you're watching, I'll just read read straight from Ken's words.
25:38
Speaker 1: The potential for an addition might be less likely if
25:41
Speaker 1: they lose their arbitration case with left handed Tek Schooble
25:45
Speaker 1: and end up paying him thirty two million instead of
25:48
Speaker 1: nineteen million.
25:50
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna do what.
25:51
Speaker 1: I always do Cody with insiders and information is like
25:55
Speaker 1: information gets out there because people want it out there.
25:58
Speaker 1: That kind of feels like a Tiger source of kind
26:03
Speaker 1: of saying like, look, if we lose this, it's so
26:07
Speaker 1: I don't us like it's it's like we are tapped out.
26:10
Speaker 1: If we have to pay an additional you know, thirteen
26:13
Speaker 1: million dollars or you know whatever for for ter school
26:17
Speaker 1: this year, that's going to cost us an additional starting pitcher.
26:19
Speaker 1: That feels like a little thing kind of flowed out
26:21
Speaker 1: there and to try to like reshape the narrative a
26:24
Speaker 1: little bit. And you know, I'm sure it is true
26:27
Speaker 1: from their perspective, but there's a reason that it's kind
26:30
Speaker 1: of shaped that way. But generally speaking, Lucas and Bassett
26:35
Speaker 1: two guys that you know are imperfect obviously, but productive
26:39
Speaker 1: and uh and and you look at their Baseball Savant
26:43
Speaker 1: page and it's like, oh, okay, there's this skill set
26:45
Speaker 1: that the Tigers are looking at that they're going to
26:47
Speaker 1: try to attack. Lucas with a fastball that's got a
26:50
Speaker 1: five five run value, Basset with a curveball with a
26:54
Speaker 1: five run value. Bassett throws like eight pitches, but like
26:58
Speaker 1: like three and a half of them are actually good,
27:00
Speaker 1: but the curve ball is really good.
27:02
Speaker 2: So so yeah.
27:03
Speaker 1: So basically, basically, you know the Tigers are in on
27:06
Speaker 1: these guys, I would say based on Ken's reporting, but
27:09
Speaker 1: they're also going to be in a waiting pattern for
27:11
Speaker 1: this arbitration hearing.
27:12
Speaker 2: So again, the schoolbole situation affects a lot.
27:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, the arbitration thing is interesting. I mean, you can
27:18
Speaker 3: consider a guy like Bassett or gi Alito probably gonna
27:21
Speaker 3: cost you between fifteen and twenty million dollars, So if
27:26
Speaker 3: you're paying an additional thirteen in arbitration, maybe signing one
27:30
Speaker 3: of these guys gets a little more difficult. I can
27:33
Speaker 3: tell you the Tigers are casting a pretty wide net
27:36
Speaker 3: for pitching. I think they've contacted some other guys out there,
27:40
Speaker 3: and I'm also not sure there's a huge sense that
27:42
Speaker 3: they feel like something's actually going to get done with
27:45
Speaker 3: a free agent on a major league deal before spring training.
27:48
Speaker 3: I think this is more of a canvassing rather than
27:51
Speaker 3: like their dead set on bringing in Chris Bassett. So
27:54
Speaker 3: we'll see what this ends up looking like. I think
27:56
Speaker 3: that just the interesting thing in general is that they
27:58
Speaker 3: are still interested in bringing in another starting pitcher when
28:04
Speaker 3: you already have at least for now, Trek Scugel, Casey Myz,
28:08
Speaker 3: Jack Flaherty, riese Olsen plus Drew Anderson plus Troy Melton
28:12
Speaker 3: plus Cater Montero plus Sawyer Gibson long now, So why
28:16
Speaker 3: do they want another guy? Well, because we all know
28:17
Speaker 3: pictures get hurt. They use fifteen different starters last season.
28:21
Speaker 3: Good does you feel about things right now? That stuff
28:23
Speaker 3: changes quickly. Just look at what happened last year and
28:27
Speaker 3: then by July you were trading for Chris Paddock and
28:30
Speaker 3: Charlie Morton and your season was crumbling apart. Seems like
28:33
Speaker 3: this is a step to try to avoid that. That's
28:36
Speaker 3: why they want to bring in at least one more
28:38
Speaker 3: established name. I'm a little skeptical, like, is it even
28:41
Speaker 3: worth the fifteen to twenty million though we've talked about
28:44
Speaker 3: this kind of all winner and maybe part of the
28:46
Speaker 3: Drew Anderson signing only given him seven how much upside
28:49
Speaker 3: is there actually in a Bassett who's been a two
28:52
Speaker 3: to three war pitcher for a long time, or Giolito
28:54
Speaker 3: who's been had a four war year one year but
28:57
Speaker 3: has been a little more up and down since then,
29:00
Speaker 3: is it actually a good investment? Because I'll just tell
29:03
Speaker 3: you right now, like I'm thinking about drawing out a
29:05
Speaker 3: roster projection, and I'm like all the names we listed,
29:09
Speaker 3: if you have to list just five, who am I
29:12
Speaker 3: kicking out? Because everyone likes Troy Milton and I like
29:15
Speaker 3: Troy Milton a lot. But is he even going to
29:19
Speaker 3: make the opening day rotation? That's already somewhat of a question,
29:21
Speaker 3: and it might be more of a question if you
29:24
Speaker 3: bring in another guy. So that's a weird calculus. Would
29:26
Speaker 3: you rather just have more of Melton or would you
29:28
Speaker 3: rather pad your depth and potentially either send Melton to
29:32
Speaker 3: the bullpen or startom in triple A?
29:36
Speaker 1: It's tough question, and we don't, you know, it's twenty
29:40
Speaker 1: twenty six now, so we haven't been doing a whole
29:42
Speaker 1: lot of like twenty twenty five.
29:44
Speaker 2: Like analysis or whatever. You know.
29:47
Speaker 1: There's a couple avenues you could do in reaction to
29:49
Speaker 1: how the regular season ended for the Tigers. Lessons that
29:53
Speaker 1: can be taken. One of them is to shore up
29:57
Speaker 1: your lineup and try to get become a you know,
30:01
Speaker 1: more complete team, especially at the plate. Haven't opted to
30:08
Speaker 1: do that unless you consider like kind of priming Kevin
30:11
Speaker 1: McGonagall to to be on the roster early in the
30:13
Speaker 1: season or pad your depth or even like a little
30:20
Speaker 1: more at the top of your depth with starting pitching.
30:24
Speaker 1: So this this feels like they're going the pitching route,
30:27
Speaker 1: which I think you and I are kind of a
30:30
Speaker 1: line on this where it's like you get it, but
30:32
Speaker 1: it's also like pictures are pitchers, and we just see
30:35
Speaker 1: examples over and over and over again about just like
30:38
Speaker 1: how fickle they you know, the situation can be, and
30:44
Speaker 1: I I think I'd rather do the hitting route. That's
30:47
Speaker 1: why I was interested in Bregman at the beginning of
30:49
Speaker 1: the offseason. That's why you know, some of these free
30:52
Speaker 1: agent hitters that are still available like at least intrigued
30:55
Speaker 1: me because I feel like I have a better I
30:57
Speaker 1: feel like I raised the floor of this team by
31:00
Speaker 1: getting by increasing production in the lineup top to bottom.
31:05
Speaker 3: I think that's a great point here. I think a
31:07
Speaker 3: hitter can raise your floor maybe more than a mid
31:10
Speaker 3: level starter can. Know if we're talking from Bravaldez or
31:13
Speaker 3: something that's different, but we're not talking from Bravaldoz. We're
31:15
Speaker 3: talking the Tigers are just trying to build innings, which
31:19
Speaker 3: is fair, like every team has to do that. Make
31:21
Speaker 3: sure you have enough innings to cover the season so
31:24
Speaker 3: that you're not trading for Chris Paddock just to just
31:27
Speaker 3: to get through the season. But at the same time,
31:30
Speaker 3: like it seems like they're looking for kind of their
31:32
Speaker 3: replacement ish type picture and they're they're padding depth there
31:39
Speaker 3: because pictures get hurt a lot. But are they raising
31:43
Speaker 3: their floor by bringing in any of these guys, I'm
31:46
Speaker 3: not sure they are whereas they could. They could arguably
31:50
Speaker 3: have done that the hitting route with a little more projectability,
31:54
Speaker 3: and hitters get hurt too, but they're not as volatable
31:56
Speaker 3: or breakable as pitchers, So I do. I think that's
31:59
Speaker 3: a of a fun philosophical debate. But you're right, the
32:02
Speaker 3: Tigers are clearly choosing the pitching route despite everything we
32:05
Speaker 3: just said.
32:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, despite being thirteen million dollars apart with your number
32:12
Speaker 1: one starting pitcher and going the pitching route. So yeah, well,
32:17
Speaker 1: I think we're due for a roster projection code. So
32:19
Speaker 1: that's a little bit. That's a little bit of a
32:21
Speaker 1: tease as to what we'll have coming up here in
32:24
Speaker 1: the In the next couple of weeks as we kind
32:27
Speaker 1: of steamroll toward spring training and then you know, obviously
32:31
Speaker 1: this Schoogle stuff will continue to continue to play itself
32:35
Speaker 1: out in the in the media. So you know, you
32:38
Speaker 1: say you want them high profile player, you say you
32:40
Speaker 1: wanted like one of the faces of baseball. Well there's
32:44
Speaker 1: the potential downside to that is that people tend to side.
32:51
Speaker 2: With him more than you in dispute.
32:53
Speaker 1: So we'll see how it plays out. It is fascinating.
32:56
Speaker 1: We got like into the weeds obviously a good bit
32:58
Speaker 1: on this, but I do say from from a macro perspective,
33:01
Speaker 1: I am actually really fascinated how this plays out and
33:04
Speaker 1: and something that like we're going to be, you know,
33:07
Speaker 1: one way or another, We're going to be siding and remembering,
33:12
Speaker 1: you know, for you as long as we do this,
33:13
Speaker 1: as long as we follow baseball, we're gonna be like, yeah,
33:16
Speaker 1: that's twenty twenty six arbitration with Tark Schoobol and Detroit Tigers.
33:20
Speaker 1: That's that's where things change, or that's where the things
33:23
Speaker 1: were attempted to change. So and that and that aspect,
33:26
Speaker 1: it is really neat. So we shall see anything else,
33:29
Speaker 1: Cody before we get out of here.
33:31
Speaker 3: No, I mean, you're right. We could talk about more
33:33
Speaker 3: ins and outs so the school thing, but we will
33:36
Speaker 3: spare you guys for now. I know, I said, you know,
33:40
Speaker 3: maybe cited almost with the Tigers a little bit, but
33:42
Speaker 3: I see again schooble and bores the side of it too.
33:46
Speaker 3: This is a big story because it's kind of unprecedented.
33:49
Speaker 3: We haven't quite seen anything like it. So yeah, again,
33:53
Speaker 3: get your popcorn ready.
33:55
Speaker 1: Get your popcorn ready, and we'll try to see if
33:58
Speaker 1: we can film have live reaction to the to the
34:01
Speaker 1: arbitration hearing.
34:02
Speaker 2: Should we get to that point.
34:03
Speaker 1: All right, You guys can follow us on x forming
34:05
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Cody Stavean Hagen. I'm at Kieran Underscore
34:07
Speaker 1: sectly pot page at Tiger Territory Underscore. Please subscribe on
34:10
Speaker 1: YouTube so we continue to grow there as we gear
34:13
Speaker 1: toward the new season. And speaking of gear, you can
34:15
Speaker 1: get your Tiger Territory gear at Tiger Territory shop dot com.
34:19
Speaker 1: So for Coty Stapenhagen, I'm Kieren Steckley. Everybody have great there,