Latest / The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education / Home Ed Learning Styles: The VARK Myth, Mixing It Up (and Knowing When to Leave It for Another Day)

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Home Ed Learning Styles: The VARK Myth, Mixing It Up (and Knowing When to Leave It for Another Day) · The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education

• 0:09
  Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Big Home
• 0:13
  Ed Conversations podcast. My name is Kelly Rigg, I'm a
• 0:16
  home educating mum of two and a qualified mindset and ADHD
• 0:19
  coach. I'm passionate about supporting
• 0:21
  parents and neurodivergent families, especially when a
• 0:23
  child isn't OK at school and the family starts making the move
• 0:27
  from mainstream into home education.
• 0:29
  I'm here together with my Co host Ashley Venerio, A fellow
• 0:32
  home Ed mum of three and a former primary teacher.
• 0:35
  We created the Big Home Ed Conversations podcast with what
• 0:38
  started as honest, heartfelt chats around the coffee table
• 0:41
  and has grown into a space where hundreds of listeners TuneIn for
• 0:44
  real, unfiltered conversations about alternative education,
• 0:47
  mindset and educational philosophies.
• 0:49
  We cut through the noise and focus on what really matters to
• 0:52
  home educating families. We are on season 6 right now,
• 0:57
  which in itself feels absolutely mad.
• 0:59
  I can't believe we've been doing this for three years.
• 1:02
  But this season we thought we'd dig into the tricky bits of home
• 1:05
  Ed, the stuff that's a little bit vulnerable actually to talk
• 1:07
  about, the stuff that we find really hard.
• 1:11
  And today we're talking about learning styles.
• 1:13
  Both of us have got multiple children, different ages,
• 1:16
  different aptitudes, interests and all the things.
• 1:19
  So we are witnessing first hand what it's like to educate
• 1:23
  multiple different kids with different interests and, and
• 1:26
  ultimately also to recognise what works well for us or worked
• 1:31
  well for us when we were educating ourselves as children
• 1:33
  and being educated. And what doesn't work well if
• 1:37
  you try and translate that to them now or what really works
• 1:41
  for one but doesn't work for another.
• 1:43
  And ultimately the reason why we wanted to talk about this is
• 1:47
  because it's exhausting. Quite honestly, it's, it is one
• 1:51
  of the hardest bits to to feel like you're getting right.
• 1:55
  And it's such a seasonal shift as well.
• 1:57
  Like it is constantly changing. It's like playing in the
• 2:01
  shifting sands of a desert. And that can feel really
• 2:05
  demoralizing sometimes where we feel like we're desperately
• 2:07
  trying to engage them and they're not interested.
• 2:09
  And we we try something that worked three months ago and it
• 2:12
  doesn't work now. But when we get it right and
• 2:14
  when we are able to adapt and see how our kids can kind of
• 2:18
  absorb something, it can feel really magical.
• 2:21
  So I really love, I love seeing my kids grow and I love seeing
• 2:24
  them change and develop, but it is really tough.
• 2:27
  So that's what we're going to talk about today.
• 2:29
  So go grab a cuppa and let's crack on.
• 2:34
  This week has felt this way anyway, for me, it's so good.
• 2:37
  Sometimes these conversations come up and we've have got like
• 2:40
  a list of things that we need to try and cover this season.
• 2:45
  But actually this, this, this does feel really relevant to
• 2:49
  this week for me. I have had a really interesting
• 2:52
  week trying to sort of tick the boxes so to speak, and noticing
• 2:57
  that my son will will happily reach for any of the other
• 3:01
  online apps and like a little bit independent learning.
• 3:05
  Like he's quite happy if I give him a writing prompt and then
• 3:07
  walk away. Whereas my youngest, it's just a
• 3:10
  hard no. It's pretty much anything I
• 3:13
  suggest and I, I have to like gently strew and leave stuff out
• 3:17
  or gently incentivize to be like, well, if you crack, if you
• 3:21
  crack on and get that done, you'll be finished by the time
• 3:25
  I'm done working. And then we can sit down and do
• 3:27
  that crafty thing together after that you wanted to do together.
• 3:30
  But I want to make sure we we take that box today.
• 3:32
  Yeah, let's just get that done so it's all sorted.
• 3:34
  And then in her brain she's like, Oh yeah, OK, I'll do that
• 3:36
  because then we can sit down and do what a crafty thing together.
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  And it's in some ways it's more of like a manipulation issue
• 3:42
  than a learning style issue. But she really does, she plays
• 3:46
  differently, she acts differently.
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  She she does all of her learning.
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  She much prefers like a written workbook, for example, over an
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  online maths app. So they are both very, very,
• 3:57
  very different. And it's taken me a long time to
• 3:59
  obviously get to know them well enough to know the right kind of
• 4:02
  thing to put in front of them. But yeah, I mean you must see
• 4:06
  this too with your 3 Ashley. Yes.
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  And you kind of hit on it. It's not necessarily a learning
• 4:14
  style, but almost just the way that the child's, I don't want
• 4:18
  to say wired, but like their personality, who they are versus
• 4:23
  like visual learner or audio learner.
• 4:27
  So as we were preparing for this episode, I was like, I always
• 4:30
  love to just check and see what kind of research is out there
• 4:33
  supporting things and like, is there something that can just
• 4:36
  give a quick win or point me in a direction?
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  And I think we all are familiar with the like this version Varc,
• 4:45
  which is like visual auditory reading, writing and
• 4:49
  kinesthetic. Am I saying that right?
• 4:51
  Kinesthetic. Is it kinesthetic?
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  Yeah, like learning through experience and like hands on.
• 4:56
  Stuff like hands on play, yeah. Exactly.
• 4:59
  OK, so this was the this theory came out in like the late 80s,
• 5:04
  early 90s and it like really hit true and was like in like
• 5:11
  teacher trainings and parenting books and curriculum was
• 5:14
  marketed. This is for your auditory
• 5:16
  learners and this is for your visual learners reading
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  furthermore about this. And basically it spreads so much
• 5:22
  because it feels true, but it's not actually true or it's not,
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  there is no evidence to support it, which is like so
• 5:30
  interesting. And I love finding this stuff
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  because I like, love when I learn something that goes
• 5:36
  against what I what sounds like it should be true.
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  I love a different train of thought and being like, no,
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  actually like, I know the whole world thinks this, but like
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  evidence shows that's actually not true at all.
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  Like that stuff just gets me so excited.
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  And so this whole thing basically there were some
• 5:53
  research that went out like in 2008, 2019, 2012 that basically
• 6:01
  just tested if a child or even a like a adult in university
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  learns better when the teaching is matched to their like, quote
• 6:10
  UN quote style. And there is absolutely no
• 6:15
  benefit found of that. So it's so interesting that like
• 6:21
  in when they survey teachers, like 90% of teachers believe in
• 6:24
  these learning styles. So they call this like a neuro
• 6:27
  myth in education, which is so fascinating.
• 6:31
  But like preferences are real. So like your child will
• 6:37
  absolutely have a preference, but teaching to them in that
• 6:41
  preference doesn't improve their learning.
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  So like if a child says I'm a visual learner, they don't
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  actually remember more if you show them things in picture form
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  versus like they read it in a book.
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  So it's, it's just so interesting.
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  And I know this is just a few studies that I was diving into.
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  So I'm happy for someone to come back and be like, actually, you
• 7:04
  know what? That's not true.
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  And here like, please, please challenge me because this is so
• 7:07
  fascinating. But basically what came out of
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  this and what they said in terms of like, what actually matters
• 7:13
  is that the content decides the method, not the child.
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  So like if you're teaching geography, you're going to need
• 7:21
  some maps. If you're like learning music,
• 7:24
  you're going to be listening. If you're handwriting, you're
• 7:26
  going to be writing. Like that's, that's because
• 7:29
  that's how it works. And there's this like cognitive
• 7:33
  scientist who was like, teach in the way that benefits what's
• 7:37
  being learned. So obviously for teaching music
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  on a in a book, that's probably not going to be as effective as
• 7:44
  a child listening to the music that was played or you're being
• 7:48
  taught about. So it's so interesting.
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  And then they said the other things that impact it is mixing
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  methods. So like which they call dual
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  coding, which is mixing pictures with writing, right?
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  So having like maybe you have the picture and then there's
• 8:05
  like subtitles at the bottom or like it's like a cartoon with
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  writing in it. And so like that variety is not
• 8:16
  wasted effort. It is, it is absolutely what to
• 8:20
  aim for, but that's the other thing that.
• 8:22
  Exactly that, as you were saying that, that that, that when you
• 8:25
  combine different methods to kind of like get the information
• 8:30
  in, like I know that when I'm listening to someone, if I
• 8:33
  really want to take that in and remember it later, I need to
• 8:35
  make notes. It's not that I actually even
• 8:38
  need to really read the notes. I just, I just need to be
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  writing at the same time as listening because then it
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  actually seems to sink in and stay.
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  And I think that that is that's a really key part is sometimes
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  it's mixing these things up. And I love the idea of just,
• 8:52
  yeah, teach the thing in the most engaging way and the way
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  that it's going to make the most sense for your brain.
• 8:59
  Like that does make sense. Yeah, and they said the things
• 9:03
  that really impact it is like prior knowledge.
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  So what a child already knows about that topic is actually
• 9:10
  like a really strong predictor of how much they're going to
• 9:12
  remember of what you're teaching.
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  But I feel like that's a chicken and egg because at some point
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  it's going to be new. So.
• 9:18
  At some point, they're not going to think about it.
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  Obviously, interest and motivation.
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  So the more engaged they are, the more they're going to pay
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  attention, the longer they'll pay attention for, and that
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  impacts memory. And a lot of that also has to do
• 9:31
  with age. Like some kids just aren't going
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  to be developmentally ready for that.
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  And then obviously any learning differences.
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  So if you are dyslexic, if you have ADHD, these are real things
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  that will have a measured impact on learning.
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  And so it's something that absolutely has to be considered.
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  It's it's. Interesting you say that as well
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  about the concept of engagement and actually the retention.
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  My son this morning, for example, as I say, his
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  preference is to use online apps to do his learning and he was
• 9:59
  independently sat doing some maths on an online thing.
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  And it is quite structured and it goes through kind of it, it
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  sort of tests out their knowledge in certain areas to
• 10:08
  figure out when to move them on and stuff like that.
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  So it's pretty good. But the, what was really
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  interesting was literally 10 minutes after he turned it off,
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  I was like, oh, what were you doing on that?
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  Because I just need to scribble it down on my observations of
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  what you actually were doing on the maths.
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  And he's like, and he couldn't remember.
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  He could not remember. And I was like, this isn't
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  comforting, like so like this might be the way that you prefer
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  to learn because it you can mess about, you can take your time,
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  you can do whatever you want to do.
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  You can do a little bit of serious, you can just go and
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  play a couple of the maths games and it doesn't really feel like
• 10:43
  it like stretches you that much. But actually I know that often
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  the best learning with him is done 1 to 1, intentional
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  focused, me supporting him and helping to explain the concepts
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  a bit more, keep him on track, like help his brain to focus and
• 10:59
  engage with it. And it is, it is really
• 11:02
  interesting how like these things, it doesn't mean that his
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  way of doing it has done nothing.
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  All that that information wasn't just processing.
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  And next time he goes and does those same, but the next on
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  lesson, he won't understand what he did learn the time before and
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  it will actually be there. But it is very difficult
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  sometimes if it's just been fun and visual and engaging.
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  Has it really sunk in? Like is it really there?
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  And I think that is why having these multiple different ways of
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  doing something with a child really does start to actually
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  help you to see how they learn like, and and what really helps
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  it to sink in because it will be very different and as you say,
• 11:42
  very different depending on the subject matter too.
• 11:44
  Because some some things like history are so much better tour
• 11:49
  going somewhere. Like it's way more fun, way more
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  engaging to go somewhere and see and experience and touch.
• 11:59
  And like they love that the audio guides going around like
• 12:02
  old castles and things like that.
• 12:04
  They love that kind of stuff. But yeah, they like sitting down
• 12:07
  and just just reading through a textbook about a battle that
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  happened Once Upon a time. If it was a good story, then
• 12:11
  maybe. But realistically, some of these
• 12:15
  things can be really dry and it's it is just way more
• 12:18
  entertaining to go and physically experience it
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  sometimes. And I think that's, yeah, I
• 12:22
  definitely see how like looking at the whole VARK thing that we
• 12:27
  definitely touch on all of them like all the time.
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  Like we would definitely watch videos, we would definitely
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  listen to audiobooks and podcasts.
• 12:34
  We definitely go and do hands on stuff.
• 12:37
  We definitely read stuff, we definitely write.
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  Like we actually just touch on all of them.
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  And as you say, it's very much relevant to the subject or the
• 12:44
  thing that you're learning about as to what feels like it makes
• 12:47
  the most sense. Yeah, 100%.
• 12:49
  So like, I mean, I think about French like when my kids take
• 12:52
  French, if I were to just read from a French book, it probably
• 12:56
  wouldn't progress us, right? You need to be engaging with
• 12:59
  someone who's ideally a mother tongue speaker of that language,
• 13:04
  but certainly someone who knows how to speak it and who has a
• 13:07
  background and a passion for it. Because that is going to bleed
• 13:09
  into the learning and and provide a lot more stimulation,
• 13:14
  right, For the kids to to keep their minds active and engaged,
• 13:17
  as you were saying, like touching on all these things.
• 13:19
  I think that is the huge advantage of home Ed because we
• 13:24
  can adjust the pace, we can follow interests, we can see
• 13:26
  when things aren't working and change course.
• 13:29
  We can be flexible. And it doesn't mean it's not
• 13:33
  hard because if you're trying to be flexible with three different
• 13:36
  kids or even just with one who has a lot of different
• 13:40
  interests, but maybe they're not related to what you need to
• 13:42
  learn for that day, it can still be challenging.
• 13:45
  But hopefully I don't know for me and reading about this
• 13:49
  because I was so not what I was expecting to find at all when I
• 13:52
  was diving until research about learning styles and what
• 13:55
  children should be thinking, what we should be thinking about
• 13:58
  for the kids and all that. I was guys like, gosh, this is
• 14:00
  actually like really comforting. It just means that like, I don't
• 14:05
  have to search for the perfect curriculum.
• 14:08
  I don't have to figure out is my child more of a visual learner
• 14:12
  or more of a read write kind of learner.
• 14:16
  It, it might be their preference.
• 14:18
  But ultimately whatever I do is is still going to get us to the
• 14:23
  the end point. As long as we're, you know,
• 14:26
  obviously have to put the work in.
• 14:27
  You can't just fluff about. But yeah.
• 14:29
  And so that's me. Felt good.
• 14:32
  Yeah, I think that is quite an optimistic viewpoint, isn't it?
• 14:35
  And I think also recognising that engagement does matter and
• 14:39
  holding attention does matter. And if something is really dry
• 14:42
  and boring, then it is going to be really difficult to keep them
• 14:43
  on track and keep them wanting to do it.
• 14:46
  And also feed the rapport. Like you said about kind of
• 14:49
  being passionate about stuff and having someone who's a native
• 14:52
  speaker or something. Like if you apply that to all
• 14:54
  the subjects, like I know hands down, there are subjects that I
• 14:58
  am less inclined to remember to do or to sit down and do with
• 15:03
  them because it's not my favorite.
• 15:05
  And so this is something to be really conscious of as well and
• 15:08
  the kind of experience that you would have had with certain
• 15:10
  subjects. And we know that obviously the
• 15:12
  the goal is to make sure our children have a really broad and
• 15:16
  like well thought through education.
• 15:20
  I suppose that we all take on a lot of responsibility for that.
• 15:24
  But ultimately we will have certain subjects that just don't
• 15:28
  feel like ones we want to teach and or we don't know enough
• 15:31
  about it or we're just not very passionate about that.
• 15:34
  And that is very, very important, I suppose.
• 15:37
  And one of the things which I'm very conscious of is when they
• 15:40
  express an interest in something.
• 15:41
  So for example, my son started wanting to play chess and
• 15:46
  honestly, I did not know how to play chess in which I did not
• 15:48
  know what all the pieces did. I tried once or twice as a
• 15:51
  child, found it a bit tricky and my brain has gone mere not
• 15:54
  interested in that and I'd never learn.
• 15:56
  And so he started wanting to play.
• 16:00
  I was learning alongside him on Duolingo.
• 16:02
  Funnily enough, everyone always asks him what what his language
• 16:06
  is because he's got like a 270 day streak or something.
• 16:08
  Now he's like, oh, I'm just learning chess.
• 16:10
  And they're like, oh, I don't know, you could do that.
• 16:12
  But it, it literally teaches you the strategy and how to use the
• 16:15
  pieces really well. And, and gradually over time,
• 16:18
  he's gotten pretty good. And he absolutely whooped the
• 16:21
  butt of my dad's last Christmas. It was just so funny.
• 16:25
  My dad, I think, just was not expecting him to be able to play
• 16:27
  so well. And I kind of reached the point
• 16:30
  I was like, OK, we do play and I kind of know what I'm doing now
• 16:34
  and I can usually, I can beat him sometimes and he can beat me
• 16:37
  sometimes. But we're just like the blind
• 16:39
  leading the blind here. Like we're just trying together
• 16:42
  and we're just gradually getting better.
• 16:44
  And so that's fine. And that's that's fun and it's
• 16:46
  OK. But actually we had some out
• 16:49
  school credits to use and I found a guy who teaches chess on
• 16:53
  there and he's so incredible. Like I don't know how he does
• 16:57
  it. He can play like 3 simultaneous
• 16:59
  games of chess and know exactly the move to go back and show
• 17:02
  them of where they went wrong so to speak.
• 17:05
  And if they'd placed a different move, then actually they would
• 17:08
  have probably won it and they didn't because they moved a
• 17:10
  piece in, left it vulnerable or whatever.
• 17:13
  And like it is just mind blowing.
• 17:14
  This guy is the smartest person on the planet, but he's also
• 17:17
  he's like super engaging and really fun.
• 17:20
  And my son absolutely lives for that class.
• 17:22
  Like he's like, when is chess? When is chess?
• 17:24
  It's Tuesday. What time is it like I need to,
• 17:25
  I need to make sure I'm on for chess.
• 17:27
  And so he's, he's really committed to it and it's
• 17:29
  teaching him a lot and he's enjoying it a lot.
• 17:31
  And that passionate person has taken over that for me now.
• 17:36
  Like I can play and I'm pretty good, but he has now got someone
• 17:40
  who knows what they're doing who can now make sure that he does
• 17:44
  fulfill that goal for himself. And I think we have to remember
• 17:50
  sometimes that we, our hang ups and our issues that we bring
• 17:56
  forward from our education can have a significant impact on our
• 18:01
  children's education. Now, whether it's hating a
• 18:05
  subject, hating a certain teacher, the way it was taught,
• 18:08
  thinking that we have to copy it, thinking that it has to look
• 18:11
  the same. Like maths for example, is such
• 18:15
  a key one. Because all of us get our
• 18:18
  knickers in A twist over maths GCSEs and the curriculum that is
• 18:22
  required to get us to a good grade at maths GCSE and
• 18:26
  therefore what we should make sure we've come up with our
• 18:28
  children by then. And I know from my, just from my
• 18:32
  own perspective, but I know a number of friends that I speak
• 18:35
  to, we get really hung up on the math, maths, English and the
• 18:37
  science GCSEs and how kind of critical they feel.
• 18:42
  And there are so many different ways of achieving our life's
• 18:45
  goals. And so I, I really have to
• 18:46
  constantly give myself a slap on the wrist every time I get
• 18:49
  stressed about it and just be like, OK, like they're pretty
• 18:52
  good with maths. I'm pretty sure it's going to be
• 18:54
  fine. But ultimately if it's not,
• 18:56
  there is going to be a solution. It will be fine.
• 18:59
  Like they will be OK. They will still live their life,
• 19:00
  they will still have a great life.
• 19:02
  But yeah, it's we get caught up in, well, I learnt it like this
• 19:08
  and this is how I do it and this is what's important for me.
• 19:11
  But they've, they've proven with math that if you put like 10
• 19:17
  people in a room, give them a problem to solve, they're all
• 19:20
  doing the math differently in their heads.
• 19:22
  They've all got a different way of doing it.
• 19:24
  Like for example, if I add 2 numbers together that spill over
• 19:28
  10, my head thinks, I don't know, say for example, like 8 +
• 19:33
  7, my brain will go 8 + 7. OK, so you take the two off the
• 19:37
  seven to make 10 and then you've got 5.
• 19:38
  So that's 15. Like that's how my brain does
• 19:40
  it. But I was talking to someone
• 19:42
  about this, but how do you do it?
• 19:43
  Like what, What do you do in your head?
• 19:45
  And they're just like, well, I just know it's 15.
• 19:47
  Like the, the number just pop straight into my head.
• 19:50
  Like it just, they just fit together like puzzle pieces.
• 19:52
  They go 15 like, and it's just really fascinating.
• 19:54
  It's like, actually, it doesn't have to be done the same way.
• 19:58
  It doesn't have to look the same way.
• 19:59
  You can learn to count with specialist mass cubes or you can
• 20:03
  learn to count with conquers. Like it does not matter.
• 20:09
  You can use your fingers in multiple different ways to kind
• 20:12
  of get yourself to the same answer.
• 20:13
  Like it's just, yeah, we, we get so hung up on.
• 20:17
  What it needs to look like, how it should look, when it should
• 20:20
  be taught by if they haven't achieved it by this point, then
• 20:22
  they have. They're not going to be OK.
• 20:24
  And it's like, I just want to just go, oh, it's OK.
• 20:28
  Like it's OK. There's a lot here, I know, but
• 20:31
  it isn't actually, as you said, like that retention element.
• 20:36
  What you're looking for with a lot of these subjects like maths
• 20:39
  and English and science is like curiosity and progression and
• 20:44
  developing vocabulary or developing interests or
• 20:48
  developing understanding or curious.
• 20:51
  Like when they ask questions and they like for example, MY2 at
• 20:55
  the moment we're we're relisting to the Harry Potter books so
• 20:59
  that my youngest gets to listen to them properly all the way
• 21:01
  through and my son has listened to them.
• 21:07
  I, I don't even want to know how many times he's listened to
• 21:10
  them. He's autistic.
• 21:11
  He listens to everything 50 million times, but he has
• 21:15
  basically got to the point now where he is picking holes in it
• 21:18
  and he's, he's noticing the lack of logic or the vocabulary that
• 21:25
  they're using or why things happen a certain way or why
• 21:28
  didn't they just do it this way or why are they saying that?
• 21:32
  And like, actually, what does he mean when he says that?
• 21:35
  Like, and he's not getting to the point where he's old enough
• 21:37
  and he's listened to it enough times for him to be listening
• 21:40
  past the story and making enquiry.
• 21:43
  And honestly, it's just lighting me up because it's it's showing
• 21:47
  me that his brain is working whilst it's listening.
• 21:51
  It's not just passively sitting there listening to the same
• 21:54
  blooming book again. Like it makes me go really,
• 21:58
  we've got so many books, listen to another one.
• 22:01
  But you won't because he's his brain is has got to fully
• 22:04
  process these ones first. But that's OK.
• 22:08
  And like, I think, yeah, I think I've got on a tangent now, but I
• 22:11
  think this, when you kind of look at how how the brain
• 22:14
  gradually progresses and builds on knowledge, it's doing it in a
• 22:19
  multitude of different ways. And it's not all up to you 100%.
• 22:22
  It's not like a lot of it is actually up to them and the the
• 22:26
  dedication they show to whatever is important to them.
• 22:31
  But a lot of this stuff honestly progresses as it should kind of
• 22:36
  by itself, as long as you were offering them opportunities.
• 22:40
  And as I said, I've said before, minds who have developed their
• 22:44
  reading largely through self-directed interest, both of
• 22:49
  them have developed a lot of maths understanding through the
• 22:53
  sporadic and multiple different ways.
• 22:55
  We've tried to teach stuff like it's a little bits and pieces
• 22:58
  all over the place, but it seems that it's coming together fine.
• 23:02
  And I think sometimes we can worry about, as you say, having
• 23:04
  that exact right way of doing it or like, oh, right, I figured
• 23:07
  out this is how they learn this stuff now.
• 23:08
  That's the, that's how we're going to do it forever.
• 23:11
  Because yeah, you need to mix it up.
• 23:13
  It gets really stale otherwise. And I meant maybe that's just
• 23:15
  the ADHD and me talking that I need a lot of novelty.
• 23:18
  But I know that my 2 would just want to murder me if if I
• 23:21
  literally said to them, right. OK, I've noticed that you really
• 23:24
  like the workbook. So from now on we only learn
• 23:27
  maths with workbooks. So I'm just going to sit down
• 23:29
  and do 3 pages of that every day and they'll be like, like, why?
• 23:34
  Why are you doing that to me? And so, yeah, it's just, I, I
• 23:39
  mean, I don't know why, but I think I find this quite fun.
• 23:43
  I'm sure lots of you out there will feel the same way.
• 23:45
  I've been told that I'm a lifelong learner, that that's
• 23:48
  just like my nature and it's part of my personality is that I
• 23:51
  enjoy learning. So I think that I quite enjoy
• 23:55
  relearning all this stuff with them and delving deeper into the
• 23:59
  random rabbit holes we go down. Like I find it really fun.
• 24:02
  But yeah, I'm sure a lot of people would find it quite
• 24:04
  stressful. Well, and I think that this is
• 24:07
  kind of showing that whichever way you are, that's OK because
• 24:11
  if you like, I know this one woman who she has five kids and
• 24:17
  so she really had and they're obviously all different ages,
• 24:21
  obvious. They're not like twins or
• 24:22
  anything that she's doing dual learning with two or something.
• 24:26
  So so her process is super regimented.
• 24:30
  Like every day is the same. And that is because she also
• 24:37
  wants to be done with school by like 12 or 1:00 PM because then
• 24:40
  they go for walks, they go do this, they go do that.
• 24:42
  So it's it's very structured. And I think when you have a
• 24:46
  family like that, that you're home educating, that is just how
• 24:49
  she has found it to work so that she's not still doing math at
• 24:53
  6:00 PM around the kitchen table while dinner is being served,
• 24:55
  right? So it is very much like the kids
• 24:59
  get up, they know exactly what they're doing.
• 25:01
  And but I mean, they are regimented, but that is because
• 25:05
  of their situation. And so I think there are
• 25:07
  sometimes where like you also have to do what works for you.
• 25:12
  It can't always be led by the child because just as you said,
• 25:15
  there are things like exams and we'd all know as adults that
• 25:20
  life doesn't adapt to our preferences like you were gonna
• 25:22
  have to the exam is the exam. Like I, I hate to say it for my
• 25:26
  girls, but there aren't gonna be horses on the exam.
• 25:28
  Like they could Draw Something in the.
• 25:30
  Corner, but they'd be like, could you face print some?
• 25:35
  Horses around for me. Thank you so much.
• 25:36
  Yeah, totally. I know, right?
• 25:38
  Just like that math teacher who was like, what?
• 25:40
  Are you gonna walk around with a calculator in your pocket when
• 25:42
  you're older? Actually, yes, we do.
• 25:43
  Thank you so much in your in your face.
• 25:49
  It's also like we were just talking about burnout, right?
• 25:51
  I mean, if we if we do this to ourselves where we're constantly
• 25:55
  trying to come up with something new, we're constantly trying to
• 25:57
  make it right up their alley, we are you were going to find
• 26:01
  yourself in that space of burnout.
• 26:03
  So there is absolutely a like a real reality to this.
• 26:10
  I guess I would say like you, you can only do so much and if
• 26:13
  you end up having a day where you're like, you know what, we
• 26:17
  are going to do some math worksheets because that's what's
• 26:20
  going to get us through it. And then next week we'll do it
• 26:23
  outdoors and we'll, you know, I don't know, get the acorns to
• 26:28
  count or something. But like today it's sitting at
• 26:31
  the table because we have something going on in the
• 26:33
  afternoon. I don't know.
• 26:34
  I just, I think it's OK to say sometimes we can change it up.
• 26:37
  But also like this woman, she buys her curriculum.
• 26:41
  That's the curriculum they use and they just go through the
• 26:44
  books because otherwise she would be, she would never sleep,
• 26:48
  would be constant. So I think it's just taking care
• 26:51
  of yourself too and what works for you and your family.
• 26:54
  And if you have more than one kid, then that means finding a
• 26:57
  compromise at some point probably.
• 27:00
  It's so true. I mean, as you were talking then
• 27:02
  I was just thinking back to the start of September and I was
• 27:05
  sort of talking to the kids about like getting back into the
• 27:07
  swing of things and trying to sort of reestablish our daily
• 27:10
  routine that we had with our learning.
• 27:11
  And my youngest was like flopping about on the floor
• 27:13
  being like, oh, I don't want to do math and I don't want to do
• 27:16
  this. I don't want to do that.
• 27:18
  And it was in the end it was just like, well, I'm sorry, but
• 27:20
  we are like that. Like, I know you don't like it.
• 27:24
  Well, you do like it. She actually loves maths.
• 27:26
  I don't really understand why she makes a big fuss about it
• 27:28
  because she always really enjoys it once we get into it.
• 27:29
  But ultimately she, her brain just takes a little bit of
• 27:34
  effort to get into gear. And so I know this about her and
• 27:38
  I know that she'll say no and she doesn't really want to and
• 27:41
  she'll go and make a big drama about it.
• 27:43
  But then when we start it and once she starts ugly questions,
• 27:46
  she's flying and she'll, she'll really enjoy it.
• 27:48
  She'll be like, can I do another page?
• 27:49
  Can I do another page? And like, yeah, sure, I'll sit
• 27:51
  here as long as you want to sit here, try and get as much time
• 27:54
  whilst you've still got your momentum going.
• 27:57
  But she is, she is definitely my trickiest customer in that
• 28:00
  sense. And I have to recognise that as,
• 28:04
  as the adults in the situation, I have got the bigger picture in
• 28:07
  my head like we're talking about before on an earlier episode.
• 28:10
  And I I care about her and I care about her future.
• 28:14
  And she's incredibly bright and given support and scaffolding.
• 28:19
  She could go on to do incredible things left to her own devices.
• 28:24
  Yeah, super creative, super clever.
• 28:26
  Probably would get there gradually, eventually.
• 28:28
  And as and when challenges came up, I'm sure she'd find a reason
• 28:31
  to learn these things as she went along.
• 28:32
  And I'm not saying that she wouldn't.
• 28:34
  But sometimes it is about efficiency.
• 28:37
  I think that's the word here, isn't it?
• 28:38
  It's just like, let's just get this done and then we can go do
• 28:42
  something else. Like you guys want to go out and
• 28:44
  see your friends later. I just want to tick these boxes
• 28:46
  quick and then go out. Like, it just makes me feel
• 28:49
  better. It will make the local authority
• 28:51
  feel better knowing that you've done a little bit of intentional
• 28:54
  learning around the subject. And then we can all just have
• 28:56
  fun again. Like, and actually a lot of it
• 28:59
  ends up being fun anyway. Like the amount of times I've
• 29:01
  had conversations with them about like, how, how boring is
• 29:05
  it? Like the stuff that I do?
• 29:06
  Is it, is it boring? And they're like, no, like, it's
• 29:09
  actually usually pretty fun. Yeah.
• 29:11
  Is it usually based on our interests?
• 29:12
  Yeah. It's like, OK, so maybe some
• 29:15
  give me such a hard time then. Like, I worked pretty hard to
• 29:18
  make this interesting and adapted for you.
• 29:20
  I'd appreciate if you could at least give me some, like,
• 29:23
  enthusiasm. Just a smidge would be nice, but
• 29:25
  yeah. It's like, why?
• 29:29
  Why? I feel like for for the
• 29:32
  traditional school parents listening, which probably
• 29:34
  there's none. But if you're there, it's not
• 29:36
  just you. It happens to us too, and it's
• 29:39
  the most interesting part. Of the.
• 29:43
  Home schooling. Why?
• 29:46
  Why are you surprised every day? Why do you complain?
• 29:48
  Like why? And so the same I and I don't
• 29:51
  know, I always go to my gosh, your life is so easy.
• 29:54
  Could you what you'll be doing in school right now?
• 29:55
  Do you have any clue how much homework you would have?
• 29:59
  It's like my attempts to try and get you to do like half an hour
• 30:01
  of maths a few times a week. Like absolute push, Like
• 30:05
  absolute push like maybe twice. That is every day.
• 30:09
  If you were at school, like seriously, every day would be
• 30:12
  writing math, reading, like then you'd be doing like art history,
• 30:17
  geography, like all these other subjects as well, like science
• 30:20
  experiments and stuff. It's like, it's not all just
• 30:22
  that. Like, I appreciate they do lots
• 30:23
  of fun stuff in schools with kids, but it's yeah, yeah.
• 30:26
  I would say something like you have got no idea, like the
• 30:29
  sustained energy that you would require to be sat focused from
• 30:34
  9:00 in the morning until 3:00 in the afternoon with a couple
• 30:37
  of breaks. It's just my mind struggles at
• 30:40
  the idea of these kids coping with that right now.
• 30:42
  Like, it would be an absolute shock to the system.
• 30:44
  But like, that being said, like, like we could talk about
• 30:47
  forever, but like, we're not going to get into school bashing
• 30:49
  here. But like we don't agree
• 30:51
  generally that that is that's actually the most efficient way
• 30:55
  to educate a child because I know, for example, I was
• 30:58
  literally talking about this before we got on.
• 31:00
  Actually, it's quite relevant now.
• 31:01
  Thinking about it is how I feel on a Wednesday.
• 31:03
  So on a Wednesday, I drop my kids off at a forest school and
• 31:06
  then I work in like a workshop we've got there, which is very
• 31:10
  kind of them for five hours and then I pick them up and I go
• 31:14
  home and I am wrecked. Like it is such a long day.
• 31:18
  It's like an hours driving either end.
• 31:19
  There's a load of load of focus work in the middle.
• 31:23
  They're tired, I'm tired. I get home, I stare at the
• 31:26
  fridge, I go, Oh my God, someone please cook me dinner because
• 31:29
  there's no way I've got anything left in the bag.
• 31:31
  And is that the best way for me to be working?
• 31:35
  Probably not. Like, is that burnouty sensation
• 31:37
  like complete overwhelm and like complete inability to focus now.
• 31:41
  And now I can't do anything healthy or nourishing for myself
• 31:44
  because I'm so exhausted. Like that is not a good place to
• 31:48
  be. And I know that stamina builds
• 31:50
  into these things and we get used to it, but it doesn't feel
• 31:53
  good. And like, I'm like when I
• 31:55
  reflect back on school and like, the sensation that you'd have
• 31:59
  when you got home was just like, oh, and you just literally just
• 32:01
  stuff a peanut butter sandwich in your face, sit and watch some
• 32:04
  cartoons, then maybe go out and play with your friends for an
• 32:06
  hour. Then you've got all the homework
• 32:07
  you had to do. But back then, it wasn't very
• 32:09
  much a primary. It's a lot more now.
• 32:10
  And ultimately you're just on all day and like the just the
• 32:17
  exhaustion of it all is just mind blowing for me, especially
• 32:20
  neurodivergent children really. But any child is just the lack
• 32:23
  of downtime. And a lot of them, a lot of them
• 32:27
  are in after school clubs as well and are experiencing a lot
• 32:31
  of busy. And I think one of the things
• 32:33
  that worries me the most around that kind of when we sit and
• 32:37
  worry about this and worry about our kids, are we doing enough?
• 32:42
  Like I can't get this one to engage in whatever it is that
• 32:45
  I'm trying to do, or I can't get my brain out of how it was
• 32:48
  taught to me at school. And I'm really struggling to
• 32:50
  convey this to the kids. And how do I make it more fun?
• 32:53
  How do I make it more engaging? And all that effort and work
• 32:55
  we're putting into it is that we also then sometimes worry that
• 33:00
  like we spend too much time out having fun with our friends and
• 33:02
  we spend too much time going for day trips.
• 33:04
  And that kind of sucks up all of this time and we're not getting
• 33:07
  enough sit down at the table focus time and all this stuff,
• 33:09
  right? We get, we get in a right tizzy
• 33:11
  about it, but ultimately we have chosen to home educate for a
• 33:15
  reason. And one of those reasons is
• 33:17
  because we don't believe that the hustle culture of education
• 33:22
  is right. Like we don't think that is the
• 33:26
  best way to educate our children.
• 33:27
  Like we do see that it exhausts them that it, how are they?
• 33:31
  How are they going to be retaining anything?
• 33:33
  Sat there at 2:00 PM having worked their butts off all day,
• 33:37
  been super focused on all the things like how are they taking
• 33:40
  anything else in at that point? Like you're lucky if they are.
• 33:44
  And we worry about like the fact that they forget from one day to
• 33:48
  the next how to do something. We literally just did this
• 33:50
  yesterday and how come we can't remember it now?
• 33:52
  It's like because my brain went Kapoof and it's gone now because
• 33:56
  it was so tired and like I didn't have enough to eat at
• 33:58
  lunchtime and actually I needed a wiggle or actually I needed a
• 34:01
  wee and I wasn't allowed to go or like whatever, right?
• 34:04
  And then you've got the, the kind of slide they talk about
• 34:08
  where they sit, they've got some kids to sit the exams in July
• 34:11
  and then got the got the same children to sit the same exams
• 34:15
  in like September, October time. And they got like 30% less on
• 34:19
  their grades. Like I can't remember the exact
• 34:21
  stats, obviously, I'm just roughly giving you the idea
• 34:23
  here, but they demonstrated like a significant drop off in
• 34:27
  retention. And I'm not in home F for that.
• 34:31
  Like I don't want my kids like grabbing knowledge in
• 34:36
  desperately trying to hold on to stuff only for it to all fall
• 34:39
  out of their heads and to feel like a failure.
• 34:42
  Like I want them learning in a really progressive way that
• 34:47
  their brain is naturally like, OK, the neural pathways are
• 34:49
  building. This is making more sense to me
• 34:51
  now. I'm asking more questions.
• 34:53
  This is but I think actually maybe I could go a bit deeper
• 34:55
  into this now and I would understand it versus like the
• 34:58
  forced or we're just learning about it now.
• 35:01
  And like your brain can get it or doesn't like that's just, it
• 35:05
  doesn't make sense. And, and I know that obviously
• 35:07
  it has to on a grand scale, there's only so much that can be
• 35:09
  done. But when you look at it that
• 35:11
  way, it's like, actually, it's OK if it's softer, it's OK if
• 35:15
  it's slower, it's OK if it isn't quite so rigorous.
• 35:18
  Like, yeah, I, I definitely can't, I would never be able to
• 35:22
  sustain a 5 hour a day home age situation with my kids.
• 35:28
  But then that's also condensed, right?
• 35:30
  So when you look at the hours over the year, it's actually,
• 35:35
  they obviously have all the half terms and inset days and like
• 35:38
  holiday days and all the rest of it.
• 35:39
  And it's actually boils down to something like 45 minutes a day.
• 35:42
  If you do it 365 days a year. It's like that is mad madness.
• 35:48
  But we think of it as such a rigorous, like intense education
• 35:51
  that we've got to get all this knowledge into them super fast.
• 35:54
  But actually it's it's very doable in shorter, more engaging
• 35:59
  periods of time. And yeah, and it's gone from
• 36:01
  tangent again. I really, I'm very ranty this
• 36:03
  evening, I realized. But I am, I just think this
• 36:06
  stuff's really interesting, isn't it, that we get so worried
• 36:08
  about it. And I guess coming away from
• 36:12
  that slightly, the next thing I suppose really is, is taking
• 36:16
  care of ourselves. Like you said, like the setting,
• 36:19
  setting expectations, having boundaries around things, making
• 36:23
  it easier on us sometimes is 100% essential.
• 36:26
  But I guess how else do we take care of us?
• 36:29
  I guess in this situation like this, this can be really hard
• 36:32
  and it can be really frustrating, very triggering.
• 36:36
  I know I've had some pretty serious meltdowns in the past
• 36:39
  when I've created like a really fun activity to do with them and
• 36:42
  I've got it all laid out and they're just both like, I just
• 36:46
  need a snack. I just want to go do something
• 36:47
  else. I don't want to do that right
• 36:48
  now. I don't want to do bath.
• 36:49
  And I'm like, Oh my goodness, like do you guys have any idea
• 36:54
  how much, how many other things I could be doing right now?
• 36:56
  Like just like nice for you. Like please, can you just give
• 37:00
  me a chance? Like please just hear me out or
• 37:02
  come and have a look at it or whatever.
• 37:04
  Like, I don't know. I'm like finding myself thinking
• 37:08
  how, how have I taken care of myself through this?
• 37:11
  Because sometimes it's really not fun.
• 37:13
  Like it's really frustrating. Yeah.
• 37:16
  I think like with any job, right, there's going to be parts
• 37:18
  of it that aren't exciting or time is when it's not as
• 37:21
  exciting as we hoped. And I think that's just with
• 37:23
  everything, right Parenting to there's highs and lows and it's
• 37:28
  basically an exercise of patience and understand, like
• 37:35
  just understanding that our kids are their own people and they
• 37:40
  are not always going to do what we want them to do or feel about
• 37:43
  something that we we feel about it.
• 37:45
  And that is, I don't know, it's really hard sometimes to be OK
• 37:49
  with that. It, it is something where I'm
• 37:52
  like, but I'm giving you the best life.
• 37:55
  Like, how are you not so grateful?
• 38:00
  And I guess that's not really their job.
• 38:01
  They're they're entitled to that.
• 38:03
  So. Yeah.
• 38:04
  It's, it's interesting, but I, it is definitely hard.
• 38:08
  And that I think is, I think it's very easy.
• 38:12
  This, this topic really bleeds into burnout, doesn't it?
• 38:17
  It's really easy to try to accommodate your child's
• 38:23
  interests and preferences and, and I'm not even saying there's
• 38:27
  not learning styles, I'm sure there are, so accommodating
• 38:30
  those as well. It can be very easy to go down
• 38:35
  that path and then find yourself hating what we're doing because,
• 38:41
  yeah, you're, it's a thankless job.
• 38:43
  You're putting in so much effort.
• 38:44
  They don't appreciate it. We did something fun.
• 38:47
  They weren't feeling it. I mean, I had the same
• 38:49
  experience the other day at we, we did this trip and you were
• 38:52
  there. We went to to Heber Castle,
• 38:55
  where Anne Balloon grew up. And I thought my kids were just
• 38:59
  going to love it. And they did and they do love
• 39:03
  the story of Henry the Eighth. And so it was cool to see
• 39:06
  ambulance like bedroom and everything like that.
• 39:08
  And they were interested in that, I will say.
• 39:11
  But I was thinking to myself, we should have done this alone
• 39:15
  because when their friends are there, there is 0 interest in
• 39:19
  learning. They just want to hang out with
• 39:21
  their friends. So it's a tricky, it's a tricky
• 39:25
  mix, isn't it? Like you live and learn, I
• 39:27
  guess. So I guess as you go through
• 39:29
  these experiences, just think about what worked, what didn't,
• 39:31
  what made this frustrating. And then, yeah, try to adapt
• 39:34
  going forward. I don't know.
• 39:36
  It's hard. I think there's also like
• 39:38
  something to the idea of knowing when to cut your losses.
• 39:41
  I just found myself reflecting on moments when I might be
• 39:46
  looking at my calendar thinking, OK, we need to leave at 11.
• 39:51
  That means that I need to get the bag packed and everything
• 39:54
  else sorted. So really I need to be prepping
• 39:56
  by 10, which means we need to have breakfast down by 8.
• 39:59
  And therefore we're going to sit down and do a quick bit of like
• 40:00
  half an hour of school at 9:00 to like take off whatever box it
• 40:04
  is that day that I wanted to try and get down or whatever it is I
• 40:06
  had planned for them. And so I am trying to wrangle
• 40:11
  them and get them to shift gears and to get focused and to get in
• 40:15
  the moment and want to do that with me right there and then.
• 40:19
  I have got a mountain of other pressures that are compressing
• 40:22
  that situation into the melting pot that it obviously then
• 40:26
  becomes where I'm frustrated because I'm like, this is the
• 40:29
  window. This is all I, this is all the
• 40:31
  time we have today. Like I've got to go to this
• 40:33
  appointment. I've got to run off and go and
• 40:34
  do this or whatever it is. And so you're, you're trying to
• 40:37
  like shoehorn it in, No. This Is Us today.
• 40:43
  Like, and so you get frustrated because you can see that that
• 40:47
  means that we aren't going to get it done potentially.
• 40:52
  And if I can, if I've managed to learn anything, it is just this
• 40:57
  concept of flow and that if that's feeling too pressured, it
• 41:03
  is going to ruin our day. If I push when they are clearly
• 41:08
  not ready, not engaged, don't want to do it.
• 41:11
  And as again, I am dealing with neuro divergent kids here and
• 41:14
  that there really is a very, very key and important point.
• 41:17
  We should regulate first. Often if we feel like we should
• 41:19
  regulate after we do the important things, so we do the
• 41:22
  important thing, then we get to go and have our happy moment.
• 41:25
  But actually with a lot of neuro divergent kids, we need to be
• 41:27
  happy and have got our wiggles out and have had a drink and got
• 41:31
  a snack and we're ready to go and we need to be totally ready.
• 41:35
  Like there can't really be anything wrong, which is very
• 41:38
  hard. But you need to be like as,
• 41:41
  yeah, you do. You literally have to find yeah,
• 41:43
  that's a great word for it. Like you need to have the
• 41:44
  Goldilocks zone. Like everyone's ready now.
• 41:47
  And so I have to leave so much more room around things.
• 41:50
  I have got to give myself so much more time to create that
• 41:54
  patience because if I'm under pressure in any way, shape or
• 41:58
  form, they will sense it. They will push back.
• 42:02
  Things will take way longer than they should have done.
• 42:04
  We won't get whatever it was done, even if it's like really
• 42:07
  fun and really good, like it just won't happen.
• 42:09
  And then I will feel frustrated because then I've got to try and
• 42:12
  find another window to try and do it or whatever.
• 42:15
  Equally, there are moments when like often on a Thursday where
• 42:19
  I'll have these grand plans of what we're going to do for our
• 42:21
  topic that day. It's our topic day.
• 42:24
  So it's whatever they're interested in that we're doing
• 42:26
  together. And we'll wake up on Thursday
• 42:30
  after a really chaotic, exhausting Wednesday.
• 42:32
  And we're like, look at each other and be like, I'm really
• 42:36
  tired. And it's like, yeah, I'm really
• 42:38
  tired too. I'm like, OK, it's not going to
• 42:41
  happen today, is it? Like sometimes is that?
• 42:44
  And it's like, OK, so all I guess you can take from that is
• 42:49
  reduce pressure, leave space. Because that's the biggest way
• 42:54
  that I can manage my mental health around it is if there's
• 42:56
  plenty of space in my week, if I don't overbook it, if I don't
• 43:00
  over schedule this, don't have too many like regular clubs and
• 43:04
  meet ups and things like keep, keep some space because then
• 43:08
  you've got wiggle room. You've got wiggle room to rest,
• 43:11
  you've got wiggle room to read together, You've got wiggle room
• 43:13
  to play games together. Like I've spent a large
• 43:16
  proportion of my day-to-day playing Scrabble with my son, a
• 43:20
  really rather horrendously long amount of time, but it's fine,
• 43:23
  it's good. And his spelling's really
• 43:25
  improving. I was really impressed with how
• 43:27
  he kind of managed it and handled his maths as well, like
• 43:29
  adding up his scores. Like he was doing great and it
• 43:32
  was really nice to witness and I really enjoyed that quality time
• 43:34
  with him. But if we, to be fair, he wasn't
• 43:38
  well today, which I'm realizing now is why we had so much time.
• 43:41
  But we, we end up staying home. We were supposed to be out, but
• 43:43
  we, that was quite nice in its own way.
• 43:46
  And I, I think sometimes you do just have to go to do what
• 43:49
  actually, it's fine. Like we're just going to clear
• 43:52
  the calendar today. We'll hang out at home and
• 43:55
  we'll, we'll try and get a few bits done.
• 43:57
  Or actually, do you know what? We want to go out and we need to
• 44:01
  get some Wiggles out because everyone's climbing the walls
• 44:03
  and we're not, we're not having a great time right now.
• 44:05
  So let's just go somewhere, have some fun, get the wiggles out,
• 44:08
  see some friends, and then we'll try and decompress a bit when we
• 44:12
  get home and sit and do some stuff over dinner, like
• 44:15
  whatever, Like just go with the flow, I guess a little bit.
• 44:18
  And sometimes it's like if you, if you keep kind of like trying
• 44:21
  to hammer something home and they're really not getting it.
• 44:23
  It's that, as you said earlier, recognizing developmentally, are
• 44:26
  they actually ready to receive this?
• 44:28
  Is this something like I'm trying to teach them something,
• 44:30
  but it's not sinking in. They're not getting it.
• 44:33
  Either it doesn't feel relevant to them or they're not ready for
• 44:38
  it. And so sometimes it's OK to do
• 44:40
  so. You're like, you know what?
• 44:40
  I'm just going to write this on a piece of paper.
• 44:42
  So like, keep a list of stuff that you need to come back to
• 44:45
  try again another time and leave it for a bit and come back to it
• 44:48
  later. Because it's not.
• 44:51
  Yeah, this linear pathway that we're supposedly supposed to
• 44:55
  follow, that is exactly how the brain develops and grows.
• 44:58
  I don't think that's true. I think that's just a, a way to
• 45:02
  tick off boxes, which our bureaucracy in this country
• 45:05
  loves to do. But anyway, this, this subject
• 45:08
  is so diverse again. And I think as as someone who's
• 45:11
  been doing this for many, many years, I guess my only advice is
• 45:14
  really to to just give yourself some grace and your kids some
• 45:17
  grace because you say like, they don't owe us anything.
• 45:20
  Like they exist on this planet because we created them.
• 45:23
  That's wonderful, but we're not in charge of everything they go
• 45:27
  on to do in their life. And ultimately I want to empower
• 45:30
  them to feel like they can say no or when when they're not
• 45:33
  enjoying something that they can consider another path or another
• 45:37
  option and to kind of express you, I don't really enjoy this.
• 45:40
  So I want to I want to do something a different way.
• 45:42
  But as you say, sometimes it is OK to also push back and say,
• 45:45
  look, I know you maybe don't don't love it, but we also don't
• 45:49
  hate it. And ultimately, we like, I've
• 45:52
  been like eating vegetables, right?
• 45:54
  Like sometimes, like, I know you don't love it, but it is really
• 45:58
  good for you and it just gets it done and then we can move on.
• 46:01
  And like, it is sometimes just that kind of balance, I suppose,
• 46:08
  between your mental health, your energy, your frustration
• 46:11
  tolerance, and not shaming them or being angry with them for not
• 46:16
  being able to engage with something or do something.
• 46:18
  Definitely being respectful and understanding that they will
• 46:21
  learn differently or they they will find something more
• 46:23
  engaging than it is. And they do need support and
• 46:25
  scaffolding around that. And we should be adapting as
• 46:28
  much as we can to how they want to learn because then it, it
• 46:32
  will feel more relevant and more engaging for them.
• 46:35
  But yeah, sometimes we we don't have any more anything, anything
• 46:38
  left back in the tank and we really need to just get, get
• 46:40
  through something. And sometimes when we don't have
• 46:43
  anything in the tank, the right answer is actually to just put
• 46:45
  it down for a little while and to come back to it when we do
• 46:48
  have the energy. Because your frustration or
• 46:52
  irritation with something will rub off on the situation and
• 46:56
  they will just not want to do it.
• 46:58
  So sometimes it's better to just be like, you know what, we're
• 47:01
  just going to leave it for now and we'll come back when we're
• 47:04
  happy again. But yeah, I think that's
• 47:07
  probably about as much as I've got on that one.
• 47:09
  I feel like it's, it's really hard and it's a tricky thing,
• 47:13
  but I guess it's important that we're doing this work as well.
• 47:16
  Because the more we understand about our children's education,
• 47:21
  the more we share with each other, the more people who
• 47:23
  choose to home educate or choose to offer their children
• 47:26
  different pathways have inspiration from those of us who
• 47:31
  are finding great fun alternative ways of doing it.
• 47:34
  Right? Like that's, that's part of the
• 47:36
  research. It's part of the project is, is
• 47:38
  making sure we're sharing and giving people ideas and find
• 47:42
  your communities, find your people, find people doing it
• 47:44
  this like ways that you like to do it and pull their ideas, give
• 47:47
  stuff a go. Like you're definitely not alone
• 47:50
  in this world. Like we're all just trying to
• 47:52
  figure stuff out. But yeah, it's it's amazing for
• 47:55
  our kids to have people such dedicated to that for them.
• 47:58
  I know that I would have appreciated it as a child for
• 48:00
  sure if someone was really engaged in helping me to learn
• 48:04
  about whatever it is I wanted to learn about.
• 48:05
  Like that would have been really fun and I would have really
• 48:07
  enjoyed that. So I guess I just hope that in
• 48:11
  the long term, I mean, I definitely see gratitude in
• 48:14
  questions they ask and the the thanks that I get and the
• 48:18
  enjoyment of the things we do. Like I see the the gratitude and
• 48:21
  the engagement in it. But I look forward to seeing who
• 48:24
  they are as adults and what they do with all this stuff.
• 48:27
  Like, I can't wait to see it. It's going to be so much fun.
• 48:30
  Yeah, yeah, it's a marathon. It sure is.
• 48:36
  All right guys, well, we'll see you again next week.
• 48:38
  Thank you so much for listening. Keep messaging us, keep telling
• 48:43
  us what's going on in your world and please, please, please leave
• 48:46
  us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you tend to
• 48:48
  listen because we need some up to date ones.
• 48:50
  We need more people commenting. All right, we've got so many of
• 48:53
  you tuning in, so it'd be really nice to see some of you just
• 48:57
  dropping us a quick line and telling us why you love it and
• 48:59
  why you tune in. That'd be great.
• 49:01
  All right guys. Have a great week.
• 49:05
  You've been listening to the Big Home Ed Conversations podcast.
• 49:09
  Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to subscribe, leave
• 49:12
  a review and share with a friend.
• 49:14
  Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Big Home Ed Podcast
• 49:18
  for updates. Also check out our website at
• 49:21
  Big Home edpodcast.com. Next episode we're talking about
• 49:26
  the thing nobody puts on the Home Ed brochure money.
• 49:31
  When your child is in school, the curriculum, the books, the
• 49:33
  science lab, and the specialist teachers all come included.
• 49:37
  When you home educate, every single bit of that comes out of
• 49:40
  your own pocket. We're getting honest about what
• 49:43
  it really costs and how families make it work.
• 49:46
  So join us next week to talk about the financial impact of
• 49:50
  home educating. Thanks for listening and see you
• 49:53
  then.