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Jesse Zink on Charting Realistic Hope for the Church’s Future. · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
0:10
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is designed
0:33
to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
0:36
tools you need for impactful ministry. And now
0:39
for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Martha welcomes Jesse Zink to the
0:49
show. The Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink
0:52
is an Anglican priest and also serves as
0:55
Canon Theologian in the Diocese of
0:57
Montreal. Born in Vancouver and raised
1:00
in the United States, Jesse has also served
1:03
in ministry in South Africa and in England before
1:06
his arrival in Montreal. Since
1:08
2017, Jesse has been principal of
1:11
Montreal Diocesan Theological
1:14
College, or as it is widely known,
1:16
Dio. Dio is an ecumenical
1:19
theological college serving the Anglican and
1:22
United Churches of Canada and is affiliated with
1:25
McGill University. His latest book,
1:28
published in the fall of 24, is
1:30
Faithful Creative 15 Theses for
1:33
Christians in a Crisis Shaped World.
1:36
He is the author of four other books about Christian
1:39
theology, Christian mission, and Christianity in the
1:42
non Western world, including Backpacking through the
1:44
Anglican Communion and, uh, Christianity and
1:47
Catastrophe in South Sudan, Civil War,
1:50
Migration, and the Rise of Dinka
1:52
Anglicanism. Please take a moment
1:55
to rate and review this episode on whatever
1:58
podcast platform you're listening on. And if you find the
2:01
episode helpful, please share it with a ministry friend.
2:03
Our mission is to help you and your church walk
2:06
faithfully into the future.
2:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
2:19
host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnick,
2:22
and I'm so happy today to be joined by
2:25
the Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink. Jesse,
2:28
it's great to have you on the program today.
2:31
>> Jesse Zink: Thanks for having me here.
2:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, we have lots to talk about,
2:36
um, and the bulk of our conversation is going
2:39
to be about your new book. But,
2:41
uh, before we get into that, we just like to start with
2:44
some opening questions. So maybe, Jesse, you can just
2:47
share a little bit about your faith journey, what that
2:50
looks like in the past and what it looks like
2:53
now.
2:54
>> Jesse Zink: Yeah, uh, well, I'm a binational
2:57
child, born in Canada, uh, raised in the United
3:00
States, but, uh, a, uh, child of
3:03
the church, um, born and baptized into the
3:06
Anglican Church of Canada and raised in the Episcopal Church in the
3:09
United States and now serving back in the Anglican Church of
3:11
Canada. So, uh, the church has, uh, Long
3:15
been important to me. And you know, I think
3:17
in the baptismal service when the congregation, uh,
3:20
pledges to support the child in their life
3:23
of faith. Uh, certainly I've been the beneficiary of lots of
3:26
people in my life, um, my parents
3:29
and my family. But, uh. Loads of other saints of the
3:32
church who have raised me, uh, in the life of
3:35
faith. Uh. But I would say that my faith really
3:38
became my own, uh, in part,
3:41
uh, through experiences in university, but also afterwards
3:44
when I had the opportunity to live and work,
3:46
uh. Um. In cultures, uh, outside
3:49
of my own. Uh, first in Alaska, uh.
3:52
Uh, among Alaska native people. And then in South Africa
3:56
working, uh, at a church ministry there. And so, uh.
3:58
The intercultural part of my faith has
4:01
always been really important. I find that engaging with Christians
4:04
from other cultural backgrounds has always helped me deepen
4:07
my own faith, broaden my horizons on what it means to
4:10
be, uh, a Christian. And
4:13
that's what, uh, has led me to
4:16
my work today. Um, my work in theological education.
4:19
Um, and in this work of theological education,
4:22
there's a significant intercultural component both in
4:25
what we're offering our students, but also the
4:27
backgrounds, uh, that our students come from.
4:30
Uh, so I would say I was raised in, uh, the North American
4:33
church, um, but have a real connection to and sense
4:36
that the body of Christ transcends, uh, the barriers
4:39
and boundaries, especially the cultural boundaries,
4:42
uh, of our own time. Uh, and
4:45
that offers this vision, uh, of what,
4:48
uh. Um. A reconciled body can look like to the
4:51
rest of the world.
4:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's beautifully said. And that, uh,
4:55
intercultural
4:58
influence, um. And formation definitely comes through
5:01
in your book as well. So, uh. That's
5:04
great. Um. Is there a spiritual
5:07
practice that you are finding particularly
5:10
meaningful now?
5:12
>> Jesse Zink: Um. One of the things that,
5:15
uh. Has been really meaningful to me is
5:17
singing. Um. Uh.
5:20
Uh. Uh, I love singing. Uh.
5:23
I love congregational, uh. Or community
5:26
singing. Um. That doesn't mean I'm good at it.
5:28
Um. I'm guided by words that,
5:31
um. I've heard attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson.
5:34
I think the world would be very quiet if no
5:37
birds sang. But those that sang best.
5:40
Uh. And I love, uh. Gathering together
5:43
a group of people, uh, with hymnals or other
5:45
musical resources and just sitting around and singing
5:49
together. Uh. I didn't say. One of the other parts of
5:51
my spiritual journey has been having a lot of
5:54
deep friendships with people from other traditions outside
5:57
of my own Anglican, uh, Episcopal tradition.
6:00
Uh, and for me, I've had some deep relationships with people
6:03
from the Anabaptist or Mennonite background where
6:06
Communal singing is really important and I've learned so
6:08
much uh, from them. And so, uh, one of the things that
6:11
I love doing uh, with my students, uh, in
6:13
Montreal, uh, is precisely
6:16
that at our retreat, at the opening part of the year,
6:19
we have a time where we sit around in a circle,
6:22
um, and uh, people share songs from
6:25
their own cultural background. Uh, we sing uh,
6:27
hymns together, uh, we talk about them, where they come
6:30
from. I mean I find the very act of singing
6:33
to be spiritually meaningful. Um, but I also find the
6:36
lyrics and the words to be a form of
6:39
prayer as well. Um, and so anytime I can
6:42
gather uh, people together, uh, with hymnals,
6:45
uh, or music, a cappella or accompanied,
6:48
um, I find that to be a pretty important
6:51
informative spiritual practice for me, uh, and for the
6:54
community.
6:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well that sure speaks to my heart. I
6:57
mean I think for me that is the
7:00
most intuitive and
7:02
natural form, um,
7:06
of prayer, but just kind of visceral
7:09
connection with God. Anecdotally,
7:12
the best committee that I ever sat on
7:14
was um, to put together
7:17
a new hymnbook supplement for the
7:20
Anglican Church. And like for months and
7:23
months and months, our meetings were just
7:26
gathering around a piano and singing through
7:29
like all of the new hymns that were coming out. It was
7:32
pretty magnificent.
7:34
Day long meetings were never so fun.
7:40
All right, well we definitely wanted
7:42
to um, make sure that we have the
7:45
most amount of time in today's conversation
7:48
for your book which uh,
7:51
is just being released. It is called
7:54
Faithful Creative
7:56
15 Theses for Christians
7:59
in a Crisis Shaped World.
8:02
And uh, it is an excellent book. It's
8:05
a must read. Um, lots of
8:07
props and encouragement, uh,
8:10
for people to pick it up because you definitely
8:13
won't regret it. It speaks right into
8:17
our time and place and
8:19
uh, and the place of the church in the world
8:22
right now. Um, there's a lot to get
8:25
into. So I thought that it would maybe be helpful
8:28
to start
8:30
um, by getting into the book
8:33
through the title and
8:36
particularly that phrase
8:39
crisis shaped world.
8:42
Um, can you speak a little
8:45
bit to the pressure points that
8:48
you're particularly observing, experiencing in
8:51
the world around us right now that lead to
8:54
that definition of a crisis shaped world?
8:58
>> Jesse Zink: Well, I think uh, the word
9:00
crisis is used a lot. Right. So,
9:04
uh, climate crisis, housing, uh, crisis,
9:06
migration crisis, opioid crisis,
9:09
opioid crisis, affordability, mental health,
9:12
uh, crisis, anxiety, loneliness, depression,
9:15
etc. Right. Uh, and
9:18
uh, I heard this word which is
9:21
beginning to be used more often, the word
9:23
polycrisis, uh, which is
9:26
uh, as it sounds that we live at a time not just of One
9:29
crisis, but of many and importantly that
9:32
they're interrelated in such a way that it
9:34
makes it difficult to disentangle. So the climate crisis for
9:37
instance, is related to uh, migration,
9:41
right? Um, economic
9:43
inequality is related to
9:46
uh, housing, for instance. Uh, and there's lots of ways
9:48
in which we can see those, uh, interweaving and
9:51
entanglement. And I experienced it
9:54
in my own life, right? It's not just an academic thing, but
9:57
I experience the sense of ah,
10:00
anxiety, concern, uh, about uh, the
10:03
state of the world, um, as it relates to
10:06
climate, for instance, as it relates to
10:08
economics. Um, I'm somebody
10:11
for whom uh, the world, the
10:14
globe is an important frame of reference in part because
10:17
of where I've lived and where I've traveled. And
10:20
so crisis shaped world is important to
10:23
me. Um, and so in the book I focus
10:25
particularly on climate,
10:29
on economics, uh, and on
10:32
migration, um, tracing the ways in which
10:34
they're uh, interwoven with one another.
10:38
Uh, and I also though wanted to
10:40
frame this and encourage us as
10:43
Christians to think about and talk about, uh, the
10:46
economic system in which we find ourselves, uh,
10:49
and in which we live. And again partly that just
10:51
emerges from my own sense of
10:54
where we are. You know, every year at
10:57
Christmas, I really struggle in December,
11:00
um, because I just see how
11:02
uh, economic values are taking over a
11:05
Christian holy day. Not are taking over, have completely
11:08
colonized and taken over a Christian holy day.
11:11
I mean, I don't like that as a Christian. But more than that,
11:14
I see the kind of pastoral impact it has on people
11:17
as so many people, Christian or not, are trying
11:20
to respond to, uh, to live up
11:22
to some uh, unattainable standard. And I think
11:25
that's not really what the Birthday of the Prince of Peace,
11:28
uh, is all about. Uh, and then
11:31
there was the pandemic. So the COVID 19 pandemic was
11:34
an acute moment of crisis. And it just
11:37
felt to me like it revealed so much,
11:39
uh, that was uh, true about
11:42
who we are, um, it revealed our
11:45
interconnectedness, uh, our ability to
11:47
rally together for a time, um, but also
11:50
our inability to sustain that for a long period of
11:53
time. Uh, our lack of trust in one
11:55
another, uh, and in. In our institutions, as we
11:58
saw during vaccination campaigns, for instance.
12:01
Uh, and so, uh, I wanted to. To say
12:04
something about all of that. Um, I'm the kind of person who
12:07
thinks through my fingers, like I think when I'm writing. And
12:10
initially I sort of began to write
12:13
about the church, you know, after
12:16
the pandemic. But then I realized nobody was going to want to
12:19
read a book with the word pandemic in the title because,
12:22
um, I'm sick of the pandemic. Um, and if
12:25
I was sick of it, nobody else was gonna buy that book. And
12:27
also I thought that really the issues we were talking
12:30
about are so much broader. The pandemic was one
12:33
instance of a broader situation of poly crisis.
12:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
12:37
>> Jesse Zink: And that's what I wanted us to think about. So that's
12:39
really what motivated, uh, or
12:42
you could say that's the point of departure, uh, for this
12:45
book.
12:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay. I just want to pick up on a couple of things
12:49
there because I think that
12:51
what the pandemic also revealed
12:54
in a big way to me and I think to many of us,
12:57
like when our regular patterns of,
13:00
um, church and church gathering were shut
13:03
down, um, like,
13:07
why does it matter to keep going
13:10
if the church doesn't
13:12
speak to those
13:15
major crisis points that the world is living
13:18
through? Right. Like, I
13:21
felt like in a huge way
13:23
that unless I was convinced
13:26
that the church had something to say to those
13:29
points of crisis, then I
13:32
was done. Like, it just like, was not
13:35
worth it. It didn't, like, matter enough if
13:38
it didn't speak to that. So, like,
13:41
that interrelated piece,
13:43
um, is also
13:46
very much connected to the life of the church.
13:49
Right. Because each of those pressure points that you
13:52
identify, um, have
13:55
implications in the life of the church as
13:57
well.
13:58
>> Jesse Zink: And it's certainly the case that people in our churches are
14:01
thinking about these things because they read the news and, and
14:04
watch the headlines like we all do and live
14:07
in the world. And I've really found, actually in,
14:10
you know, I've been talking about the material that's in this book
14:13
for a little while now, uh, to different
14:15
audiences, and I've really found just one of the
14:18
responses people give me is
14:21
this sort of relief, like, thank you for naming these
14:24
things which have felt to me so significant,
14:27
and yet I'm not sure how to,
14:29
uh, approach them or even know
14:32
that my faith might have something to say to that.
14:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, like, where do you see,
14:38
um, these pressure points
14:41
bubbling up in a specific church way? Like,
14:44
what are the conversations that you're hearing in the life of the
14:47
church, uh, that also
14:50
get interwoven with these
14:52
planetary crises?
14:54
>> Jesse Zink: Right. Well, because, uh,
14:57
the other place in which we use the word crisis, uh, it's
15:00
not nearly on the same scale as climate crisis, for instance,
15:03
but the crisis of the church, uh,
15:06
and for those of us, uh, like you and me, who
15:09
serve in mainline Protestant backgrounds in the United
15:12
States or Canada, Uh, we can certainly narrate
15:15
stories of church decline in terms of
15:17
attendance, in terms of property ownership.
15:20
Uh, we don't need to rehearse this.
15:23
The statistics here, they're different for, uh, every
15:25
denomination, uh, anyway.
15:28
Um. Uh, but I think
15:31
the sense that I've had coming out of the
15:33
pandemic, um, what. What really
15:36
crystallized it, perhaps we were there already, but what really
15:39
crystallized it is, you know, as I said, I've been in the
15:42
church my, My entire life, and my entire life
15:44
people have been saying, oh, the church is in decline. There's
15:47
going to come some moment when we're really going to have to make some big decisions,
15:50
decisions about things. And I think that moment is
15:53
here.
15:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, uh, or maybe like 10 years ago.
15:56
>> Jesse Zink: Exactly. But. But maybe we're finally realizing it.
15:59
Right? Uh, we're,
16:01
um. That things can't keep going the way
16:04
they've always been going. Um, and,
16:07
uh. So we need to talk about that. And I think the
16:10
other thing, though, I wanted to say about
16:13
crisis in the church is a sense that.
16:15
And I say this, um, with a
16:18
lot of love, um, for the church and as a
16:21
child of the church and a servant of the church, that
16:24
sometimes I didn't always get the sense in the church we were having
16:27
the conversations we needed to be having, uh, right
16:30
now, that. That we weren't quite
16:33
reckoning with the nature of the situation, uh,
16:36
as it is, um, and that
16:39
we weren't, um.
16:41
Uh. Well, that the church sometimes had become so
16:44
wrapped up, uh, in itself, um, but also
16:47
so wrapped up in the structures and the powers of this world,
16:50
um, that it was unable to see the situation,
16:53
uh, in which it found itself. And so
16:57
I, uh, really wanted to say, and
17:00
speak to Christians and say, look, let's think
17:02
about this broader context, um, and then let's talk
17:05
about how we respond to it with the good news of Jesus
17:08
Christ.
17:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that, um, that word that you used
17:12
a minute ago, relief, um,
17:15
is very much a feeling
17:18
that I had very, ah,
17:21
strongly reading your book and that I've had in our
17:24
conversations over the years
17:26
because we kind of
17:29
travel in the same Anglican Canadian circles
17:32
and, uh, have talked about some of this stuff over
17:35
the years. But, um, that,
17:38
like, sense of relief, to name it, like,
17:41
this is what's actually going on. And to me
17:43
that is really connected to hope, like,
17:46
being honest about what is going on,
17:49
um, to me is not just like a big exhale. It's
17:52
also like the start of hope.
17:55
And you frame that right from the beginning of this book.
17:58
You say that uh, this book is
18:01
born from a great sense of possibility and
18:04
expectation about what Christians can offer
18:07
to a hurting and changing world. So
18:10
I just wondered if you wanted to speak for a moment about that
18:13
Hope. It's in your title and it's
18:16
like right in the introduction of the book.
18:20
>> Jesse Zink: So the source of hope, what makes me
18:23
hopeful, uh, ultimately is the life, death
18:26
and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the knowledge that Christ
18:29
will come again. I mean that, that is
18:32
the point of departure. That's gospel, uh,
18:35
good news. Um, obviously that
18:38
takes some unpacking which is part of what I'm
18:40
uh, uh, writing about. But you
18:43
know, ah, at its core
18:46
hope um, is a virtue that puts us on a
18:49
timeline of God's action. We uh, look back to what God
18:52
has done in the past, we look around
18:55
us to what God is doing in the present and we look to the
18:58
future as well, uh, knowing that God,
19:01
uh, will act in the future,
19:03
uh, and that makes us hopeful.
19:06
Uh, now I want to be clear what Hope is not
19:09
right. Hope is not optimism. Uh, hope is not the
19:12
sense that we just need to sit back and let God
19:15
sort everything out. Hope, uh, I
19:18
think I use the phrase hope, uh, is a kind
19:21
of, uh, no options left hanging on by your
19:23
fingernails kind, uh, of virtue. Uh, you
19:26
wouldn't choose hope, uh, if you had a choice about
19:29
it. Um, and, and I've sometimes
19:32
said somewhat in jest, but I think perhaps it's true
19:35
that um, the mood in this book that I
19:38
was going for at times was, was bleakly
19:40
hopeful, um, hopefully more hopeful
19:43
than bleak. Um, but, uh,
19:46
but, but I think that's, that's what it's about.
19:48
And in how does God act? God uh,
19:51
acts for abundance of life, uh, for fullness
19:54
of life, for wholeness of life. Uh, in Scripture
19:57
that's described variously as the kingdom or the
20:00
reign of God, as shalom,
20:03
as righteousness, um, as
20:06
peace, um, and that's good news because
20:08
it's good, um, and it's new. We don't
20:11
find that kind of life uh, anywhere
20:13
else. Uh, and so the
20:16
hopeful piece is to know that
20:19
my role, uh, our role as Christians in this
20:22
time and place is simply uh,
20:25
what it has been for Christians across history,
20:28
which is to proclaim the gospel afresh in
20:31
this generation, um, to say,
20:34
okay, given this context, a context
20:37
of a crisis shaped world, uh, in a
20:39
church that's perhaps in a crisis of its
20:42
own, what does the good news of Jesus Christ
20:45
have to say, uh, to this context,
20:48
uh, and I'm not persuaded by Stories
20:51
of church decline. Um, I don't think the
20:54
church is going to die, um, partly because of the great
20:57
promise of Jesus that the gates of hell will not prevail
20:59
against it. Um, but I do think the church is
21:02
going through a pretty big period of change and
21:05
transition. Um, and that
21:08
feels very wrenching and difficult and confusing for those of
21:11
us who are in the middle of it. But honestly it also
21:14
feels immensely energizing and exciting.
21:16
Um, because I know that, that God is working in our
21:19
midst and God will continue to work, uh, and
21:22
leading us always towards this quality of
21:25
life of um, communal life, uh,
21:28
in relationship with one another, in relationship with
21:31
Christ and in relationship with uh, the world around
21:33
us that we can't find anywhere else. And so I can't
21:36
think of anything else I'd rather do than tell
21:39
people about that, um, and try to uh,
21:42
enact it and live it, uh, and proclaim it.
21:45
So that's hope right there.
21:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yep, that's hope. And you know, I think
21:50
the other part that's
21:53
like really integral to that hope is
21:56
like the kingdom of God is actually not
21:59
something that we're called to make happen
22:01
or to build or to
22:04
um. Like we can, we can get
22:07
on the train, we can, um, we can get
22:10
better at um, bearing witness
22:13
to it, we can get. Sharpen our
22:16
language and our eyesight for being able to perceive
22:19
it. But it's actually like not up
22:22
to us to make it happen.
22:25
>> Jesse Zink: Uh, no, no it's not. Uh, but I think
22:28
what you say is, is uh, that. That doesn't excuse us
22:31
from doing nothing.
22:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, no, no.
22:33
>> Jesse Zink: What it leads to, what knowledge of the kingdom
22:36
leads to is it leads us to live
22:39
now like things will one day
22:42
be. Um, you know, that, that we're trying to give the
22:44
foretaste of it, uh, in our common life. And
22:47
we'll fail, um, because, because we're, we're human beings.
22:50
But from time to time, uh, we'll get glimpses of
22:53
it. And as you say, uh, part of it is to, to see
22:56
that, to point it out to other people and say, this is what
22:59
this looks like. Mhm. This is what we're trying to offer to other
23:02
people.
23:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mm, mhm. Absolutely. Yeah.
23:06
Um, we don't, we're not in charge of making
23:09
God show up like God is on it.
23:12
Um, so
23:15
you have 15 theses. Um, each
23:18
one is its own chapter. It's a great
23:21
organizing principle for the book.
23:24
I um, think that it
23:27
involves quite a lot of discipline to
23:30
um, sort out those 15 theses.
23:33
Because as you say they're all so
23:35
interconnected. And so there's a lot of,
23:38
um, chapters referring back to previous
23:41
chapters and that kind of thing. But how did
23:44
you arrive at those particular
23:46
15.
23:48
>> Jesse Zink: Yeah. Well, let me just say a word first about Thesis as a
23:51
structuring device. Um, many of your
23:54
listeners will probably know that the thesis has a somewhat
23:57
august, uh, role in Christian history.
23:59
Notably, um, Martin luther in his
24:01
95. Um, so I. I'm not
24:04
necessarily trying to associate myself with that. But I think what
24:07
Luther recognized is that a, ah,
24:09
declarative statement, which is all that a thesis is a
24:12
declarative statement, is a great way,
24:15
um, to invite discussion,
24:17
um, to invite response. And, uh. And
24:20
so that's really what I'm interested in. Uh, you know, this book is a
24:23
contribution to his discussion, uh, and an
24:26
invitation, uh, for a response. And the reason that I
24:29
chose Thesis also is that,
24:32
uh, you know, probably like you, I go to a lot of church
24:34
meetings. And I was kind of getting tired
24:37
of just the amount of rhetorical
24:40
questions that I heard there. Like, well, what would it be like
24:43
if. Or imagine if we could do this?
24:45
Um, and I just wanted to say that
24:48
there have been several meetings I sat in where I thought, okay,
24:51
let's try to answer that question. Let's not just ask it
24:54
now. Look, I know how important it is to ask good
24:56
questions. Um, uh, but at
24:59
some point I just want to try to answer them. And,
25:02
uh, I will have failed. Um, if you
25:05
read this book and you find yourself agreeing with all
25:08
15. Um. Because as I say, this is
25:11
an invitation for conversation. And maybe in 10 years I'll
25:13
come back and be like, oh, I don't. Don't agree with that one anymore.
25:17
Um, and so I found that the thesis
25:19
was, uh. Uh. I wanted to write a book
25:22
in a way that was really accessible, um, for
25:25
people in congregations, uh, for clergy of all
25:28
educational backgrounds. And that the thesis was a really
25:31
helpful structuring device that allowed me to talk about a
25:34
broad range of issues. As you say, interconnected,
25:37
but still a broad range. Even though some of these
25:40
theses could be whole books in themselves.
25:42
Um, and, uh, maybe they one day will
25:45
be. Um. As for how I got to 15,
25:48
um. Well, I originally wrote about 19
25:51
or 20. Um, some of them aren't ready for prime
25:54
time. Uh, some of them just didn't
25:57
really fit. Um, and then I
26:00
did try to find a kind of narrative
26:03
arc. Beginning, um, with the idea of
26:05
polycrisis and diagnosing where we are. And
26:08
then thinking about this idea of resistance to the
26:11
powers of this world, um, and then,
26:14
uh, ending with a sense of renewed, ah,
26:17
church. There's lots of things I didn't write about. You know, I work
26:20
in theological education. But there's almost nothing in this
26:23
book about ministry, um, uh, or the
26:26
ministry of the church as such. Um, there'd
26:29
be more I'd want to say about the
26:32
connection of the church and what renewal of the church looks
26:34
like. But at some point you hit word count limits. And
26:37
15 was a nice number. That was that.
26:40
So maybe there'll be a volume two, or maybe
26:43
it'll turn into something else. We'll see.
26:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, definitely. Um, it is
26:49
a conversation starter. And,
26:51
uh, a variety of conversation starters.
26:54
I wanted to drill down into
26:57
chapter three. I suspect that anybody
27:00
reading your book might find that
27:03
one of the chapters becomes
27:06
kind of the lens through which all of the other
27:09
chapters you end up reading. And for me, that was chapter
27:12
three, um, which is called
27:15
Christian Formation is, uh,
27:18
not Failing, it's being Defeated.
27:21
Um. I might not have the exact wording of that.
27:24
Right. Um. Yeah,
27:27
Christian Formation is not failing, it's being
27:29
defeated. Um,
27:32
so when I was reading this,
27:34
uh, it just really spoke
27:37
immediately to
27:40
the three really unhelpful
27:43
stances that I see Christian leaders,
27:46
um, getting themselves into.
27:48
Uh, more than anything
27:51
else. Um, I think that a lot of
27:54
Christian leaders can feel extremely
27:57
guilty and, uh,
27:59
inadequate, uh, to
28:03
the job of trying to save the church,
28:06
which, you know, I think we easily sort of get
28:08
ourselves into thinking that that's our
28:11
job. Um, I think on
28:14
the flip side of that, there can be a lot of false
28:17
bravado about, um,
28:20
how well things are going and,
28:23
um. And how confident we are
28:26
in having the right answers
28:29
and the right formula sort of
28:32
nailed, uh, down.
28:33
Um, which tends
28:36
to ignore, uh, just sort of
28:39
the
28:41
overall market, um,
28:44
economics that we're buying into
28:47
when we think that it's sort
28:50
of about succeeding, uh, for the
28:53
greatest market share. Um, and then I
28:56
think kind of in the middle of that
28:58
bravado and that inadequacy,
29:01
there can just be a lot of learned
29:04
helplessness in, um,
29:07
leadership ranks. Because you can
29:10
feel so
29:12
disempowered in the face
29:15
of, like, these massive forces that seem to be
29:18
working against church, um,
29:21
success, for lack of a better word.
29:24
Um, so I
29:27
found the talk in this
29:30
chapter about defeat
29:33
to be really
29:35
helpful, very honest,
29:38
and then ultimately hopeful. So
29:41
can you just talk about
29:44
defeat, um, of Christian Formation?
29:49
>> Jesse Zink: Um, well,
29:51
um, first of all, I'm glad to
29:54
know this was like a chapter that unlocked things for
29:57
you. Um, because in some ways it was
30:00
for me as well. Some of these theses, you know, you're
30:03
seeing about the 48th draft, by the time it
30:05
finally works its way in the print, this one, it's about the fourth or
30:08
fifth draft. Like, it just sort of. It just sort of like, came
30:11
out of my fingers and I was like, ah, I think. I think now
30:14
I understand what I'm trying to say. Um, so what
30:17
do I mean by the distinction between failure and
30:20
defeat? I mean, one way to think about this is in terms
30:23
of sports teams. If you're a fan of a sports team,
30:26
right? There's a difference when you're a sports fan
30:29
of, uh, between rooting for a team or
30:32
when your favorite team, you know, right from the beginning of
30:35
the year, it's clear they're not going to do very well, right? They fight
30:38
among each other in the locker room. They don't practice very
30:40
well. It's like a rebuilding year or something. The owners
30:43
say, uh, and everybody's concerned about their next contract,
30:46
not about executing their plays on the field. Right? That's a team
30:49
that's failed. A team that's been defeated, though,
30:52
you know, uh, uh, I've certainly rooted for teams in the
30:55
past that have played well all season. You know, they practice
30:58
well together, they execute their plays, uh,
31:01
and then they lose on a last second play
31:04
to a team that just happens to be stronger or
31:07
better in that moment, and that's defeat.
31:11
Um, I would much rather be the fan of the
31:13
second, uh, of the team defeated than the team that
31:16
fails. And I think you're right. The way you began
31:19
by diagnosing the three ways in which
31:22
we reacted in church, um,
31:25
I really experience all of those at various
31:28
points. Um, but certainly I felt failure in
31:30
my ministry, right? Like, I felt like a failure. And I
31:33
know how debilitating that feeling can be.
31:36
Right? It just makes you want to give up. Uh, it makes you want
31:39
to say, well, we tried, but we
31:42
failed. And, and what I want to say about
31:45
that is that that diagnosis puts
31:48
all of the attention on ourselves, right?
31:51
It's. It's an individually oriented one, or it's a
31:53
communally oriented one.
31:56
Um, but what I'm saying, and as you say, this
31:58
is the third chapter, so it comes at the end of the first section of the
32:01
book where I'm trying to think, uh,
32:04
apocalyptically, uh, thinking about,
32:07
uh, unveiling the structures and the powers that exist in
32:10
this world that work against Christian witness. Right?
32:13
We as Christians are not the only people trying to form
32:16
people in this world, uh, there are lots of other powers
32:18
that are doing that as well. And I speak, uh, in the previous
32:21
chapter specifically about, uh, economic powers and the
32:24
way that, uh, our economic values are
32:27
forming, uh, who we are, uh, as people.
32:30
So, uh, if I just go around thinking myself a
32:33
failure because my program didn't work out, then I'm thinking
32:36
all about myself. And I'm not thinking about the structures
32:39
in which I find myself. But if I begin by
32:42
saying, look, I. Or we as
32:44
Christians are not the only people who are trying to form
32:47
people in this world. There are other powers out there
32:50
as well. If I can see those
32:52
powers, uh, those structures, those
32:54
principalities, uh, then I might say,
32:57
you know what? It's not that I'm failing, that I've done
33:00
something wrong. It's that I'm being defeated by something
33:03
that is stronger than me, uh,
33:06
stronger than us. Uh, and that
33:09
if I start talking about defeat,
33:11
um, then it's not quite as
33:14
debilitating a feeling. Um, to be
33:16
defeated is not to be
33:18
defeatist. Um,
33:21
and. And that's, I think, a really important
33:24
place in terms of opening up, uh,
33:27
the rest of the book. And I think there's a theological
33:30
lens on this one as well, which is
33:33
that when Jesus was hanging on the
33:35
cross, um, a lot of his followers
33:38
thought that he had sailed, right? But
33:41
he hadn't. He'd just been defeated. Uh, you know,
33:44
he'd spoken, uh, with confidence. He'd,
33:47
you know, gone around. He'd. He'd done. And been
33:50
precisely who he had been sent to earth, uh, to
33:53
be. And for a time, uh, the
33:56
other powers of this world, which he was deeply aware
33:58
of, the other powers of the world were stronger than
34:01
him. And of course, the great good news is
34:04
that Good Friday is not the end of the story,
34:06
right? That that defeat on the cross,
34:09
uh, is not all there is. And so
34:12
if we can reframe our conversation away
34:15
from ourselves and our failures
34:18
or successes, as you say, that
34:20
bravado around it. But then just say,
34:23
well, this community trying to form people, what
34:26
is the broader context in which we find ourselves?
34:29
And how might that context be working
34:32
towards and helping us form people in the way of
34:35
life, of the kingdom of God? Or more likely,
34:38
how might that way of life be working
34:40
against, uh, posing obstacles to our
34:43
efforts to form people, uh, into the way of life,
34:47
of the reign of God? Uh, and we might
34:49
be defeated. We probably will be defeated,
34:52
given the strength of the powers of this world.
34:56
But that doesn't mean that we need to be
34:59
miserable. Uh, Feel like we're miserable
35:02
failures. What it means is that simply in that moment
35:04
of defeat, God, uh, is
35:07
waiting for us and working, uh,
35:10
with and for and among us, uh, to bring
35:13
new life and new victory, uh, out of those moments of
35:16
defeat, uh, in precisely the same way that God
35:19
has always done.
35:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that um, that
35:24
connection and um,
35:26
the framing of Jesus
35:29
as being defeated on the cross,
35:32
um, I have just found myself going back to
35:35
that time and time again. Um, and
35:37
it goes back to kind of where you started around
35:40
like what is the place of
35:43
hope out of which you write this book? And
35:46
that's it. Right?
35:48
Um, sorry, go ahead.
35:50
>> Jesse Zink: Well, I just think, you know, if we think
35:53
that Good Friday is not the end of the story, we don't just think
35:56
that. We believe it and know it to be true.
35:59
Um, when I am defeated, my
36:02
response is not necessarily
36:05
to try harder and work harder to believe that if I can
36:08
just find the right thing, I will do it.
36:11
Um, the response is to be
36:14
more aware of our surroundings, um, more aware
36:17
of the society in which we live and how it's structured in
36:20
ways that are working for or against, uh, what we're trying to
36:23
do, uh, and then it
36:25
is being faithful, um, to
36:28
that deposit of faith, to that good news
36:31
and seeking to uh, uh,
36:34
proclaim it, um, and enact it and embody it
36:37
in the life that we share together in the Christian
36:39
community.
36:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah. Um, and
36:43
that apocalyptic lens, um,
36:47
runs as a very strong thread
36:50
throughout the book as well.
36:54
Um, that
36:56
clarity around um, what
36:59
is being revealed and then
37:02
I think the clarity about
37:04
um, what our response
37:07
can be,
37:10
um, when we are
37:14
honing in on what is actually happening.
37:18
>> Jesse Zink: And I think I want to be clear because
37:21
especially in the sort of Anglican and Episcopal circles
37:24
or mainline Protestant circles that you and I spend time
37:26
in, uh, Martha, um, the word
37:29
apocalyptic might not be one that naturally comes to people's
37:32
lips. Um, and I want to be clear that
37:35
all I'm saying when I use apocalyptic language
37:38
is simply to, as the word suggests, to
37:41
unveil, to reveal, um, the powers
37:43
of this world, um, and to be aware about how
37:46
they're working against the kingdom of God. And that the
37:49
response of apocalyptically minded
37:51
Christians, um, is not
37:54
revolution, um, it's not quietism, it's
37:57
not giving up all hope, uh, it's resistance.
38:00
It's about living, uh, in our common life,
38:04
a way of life that resists the dehumanizing
38:06
powers of this world and offers
38:09
a, ah, fullness and abundance of life, uh, in our
38:12
common life. That we can't find, ah, elsewhere.
38:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. And that I think really
38:18
brings me to my next question,
38:21
um, which is
38:25
around that alternative that I think
38:28
that you set up so beautifully
38:31
throughout the book. Um, that you
38:34
know, when we are very clear
38:37
about those dehumanizing
38:39
powers of this world, the
38:42
principalities and powers that do not bring
38:45
life, that are working against
38:48
um, kingdom values,
38:50
then we can also
38:53
um, I think lean
38:55
into what
38:59
we offer in contrast to
39:02
um, to that alternative. So I hear, I hear
39:04
throughout the book, um,
39:09
ah, the phrase like um,
39:12
to be in this world but not of it kept coming
39:15
to mind because what you
39:18
seem to be inviting is um, a
39:21
really deep, ah,
39:24
engagement and deep
39:26
conversation with the. What is actually happening
39:29
in the world around us.
39:31
Um, but then
39:34
that stance of resistance, that alternative,
39:37
um, to be our
39:39
offering,
39:41
um, it's not always
39:43
easy to do that. It's not always easy
39:46
to um, either
39:49
be clear about the waters that we're swimming in
39:52
or to figure out how to step outside
39:55
of those waters that we're swimming in, um,
39:58
to claim something else. And so I
40:01
thought maybe we could just
40:03
um, get a little
40:07
concrete here with um,
40:10
our listeners who are, you know,
40:13
trying to provide,
40:16
to lead faithful Christian communities.
40:19
Um, like what are some of the
40:22
ways that the church
40:24
is just by its nature
40:27
already doing that alternative. Like,
40:30
so we're not kind of adding
40:33
um, onto the job
40:36
description or like more things that we
40:39
should be doing as churches and
40:41
as Christian leaders, but we can
40:44
instead like kind of embrace what the church
40:47
is by nature as that alternative.
40:54
>> Jesse Zink: Yeah, I think this is uh. This. This is really significant
40:57
because uh, you know, as you and I
41:00
know and as we've discussed, sometimes part of our
41:03
response, our default as Christians is to think, oh, we got to
41:06
start something new.
41:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: I know.
41:07
>> Jesse Zink: Right. We need to launch a new program here. And
41:10
there's. There's nothing wrong with, with. With new programs
41:13
necessarily, although it does tend to put the
41:15
focus on us. Um, and I'd like
41:18
to put the focus on God, I guess. Uh,
41:21
but I do think, uh, you know,
41:24
ultimately what we are doing in this, you
41:27
know, apocalyptically inclined perspective that I'm
41:30
trying to put forward here is we are trying to
41:33
craft a model of life in our Christian communities that
41:36
resists the powers, uh, of this world.
41:39
Uh, and that ultimately,
41:42
uh, our Christian
41:44
practices give us lots of guidance on that already.
41:47
So I end the book, uh, perhaps not surprisingly
41:50
for somebody who's Anglican, um, with the Eucharist,
41:53
with Communion, um, and
41:56
thinking about how the Eucharist
41:59
already provides us Some guidance for what
42:02
it means to live, uh, a
42:05
resistant life. Uh, and,
42:08
you know, as I say, I'm an Anglican. The sacramentalism
42:10
of, uh, Anglicanism has always been very appealing to
42:13
me. Uh, you know, let's look at
42:16
what we're doing. So, you know, in the Anglican services that I
42:19
attend, there's a moment where we pass the peace with one another.
42:22
Right. Um, well, if we are sort of going around
42:25
shaking hands or these days waving at one another,
42:28
but our community is riven by some sort of
42:31
conflict, as is true in some of our communities,
42:33
then perhaps we should think about that. What do we think
42:36
about that disjuncture between what we're saying about ourselves,
42:39
liturgically reconciled people, and how we're actually
42:42
living our lives? Um, if we're confessing our
42:45
sins as we do, uh,
42:48
when we celebrate the Eucharist, but, uh, we're
42:51
still participating in systemic, uh, structures of
42:53
oppression and sin in this world, then, uh, let's
42:56
pause on that for a while. Let's ask ourselves what
42:59
confession, um, and repentance and amendment of life would look like
43:02
not just for the individual sins that may
43:05
come to mind when we are, um, bidden to confess our sins.
43:08
But let's also think about what
43:11
confession and repentance and amendment of life might look
43:13
like, um, in terms of our participation
43:16
in the structures of this world. Because I do want to be clear
43:19
that, you know, although I may be apocalyptically
43:22
inclined, uh, in identifying powers, I'm quite clear
43:25
that I participate in all of those. And our churches do as
43:27
well. Um, so what does repentance look
43:30
like? Ah, there, you know,
43:33
I have a. I have a high view of the. Of the
43:35
Eucharist. Um, uh, which means that I
43:38
do see that when the community of followers
43:42
of Jesus gathers together with bread and wine around the
43:44
table, um, this is a moment of the.
43:47
In breaking of the kingdom of God, um, in the
43:50
way that it shows us our right relationship
43:53
with one another, our right relationship with God, our
43:56
right relationship with. With the natural world and the bread and
43:59
wine that we bring forward and place on the
44:01
table. Um, this is what. This is
44:04
what, uh, it's all about. Um,
44:07
and. And that part of our job in
44:09
ministry is simply to point out when
44:12
we're seeing that happening already. So that
44:15
when we see reconciliation happen, uh, when
44:18
we see, uh, you know,
44:21
diverse communities created
44:24
here, here in Canada, of course our population is growing very
44:26
rapidly with immigrants from all over the world. And when I
44:30
see the intercultural communities that are being formed in some of
44:32
our churches, I think this is exactly what
44:35
God is. Is. Is calling us to be.
44:38
Um, let's lift this up. Let's hold this up and
44:41
say, uh, this. This is the
44:44
quality of life that we're trying to offer, uh, to other
44:47
people. Um, and so
44:50
I just find in what we are already doing and what
44:52
Christians have been bidden to do for 2,000 years,
44:55
uh, so much resource, uh, for
44:58
ministry. Uh, you know, so the Eucharist is just one
45:01
example. Uh, there's
45:04
several other I could give. Uh, but
45:07
all of it oriented around
45:10
having, uh, the Christian community, uh, be
45:13
this community that offers the foretaste of
45:16
the wholeness of life, um, that God is working to
45:19
bring about.
45:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I was. When I was reading
45:23
that last chapter about the
45:26
Eucharist, I was thinking about
45:28
the practice of ablutions
45:31
that, um, we. I mean, not all
45:34
Christian traditions do that, but certainly in the
45:37
Anglican Church, there's this very
45:40
careful process of how
45:42
the, the leftover bread and wine
45:45
needs to be consumed and treated with care
45:48
or returned to the earth or, um, you
45:51
know, whatever. Whatever it is. And
45:54
uh, there can be like, very detailed, uh,
45:57
cleaning practices and that kind of thing. And
46:00
I, I feel like that kind
46:03
of, uh,
46:05
lens, like, is something that I try
46:08
to bring to my own.
46:11
Um, food consumption patterns,
46:13
you know, in our household, how we treat leftovers, how
46:16
we, um, how we shop, how we
46:19
make sure that things aren't going to waste, how we compost,
46:22
you know, all of those. Those processes. So I
46:25
love that. That idea of,
46:28
um, of the Christian community,
46:31
like forming us to see the world
46:34
differently and to engage differently with the world.
46:37
Um, not
46:40
to kind of add to people's to do
46:43
lists, but are there like
46:46
one or two examples that you would point to
46:49
of, um, kind of new
46:51
projects or new programs, uh,
46:55
that you have seen churches
46:57
embrace that. That look like that kind of
47:00
faithful, creative, hopeful
47:03
church.
47:06
>> Jesse Zink: Well, I'm always wary of answering a question like this
47:09
for reasons you've already, uh,
47:11
indicated.
47:12
Um, you
47:15
know,
47:17
ultimately I think I want to answer that
47:20
question by saying,
47:23
uh, what are some of the characteristics of a
47:26
church that's living like this? And one of the words I didn't use in
47:29
the title of the book, um, but I explore,
47:31
um, in one of the chapters is the word
47:33
confidence, uh, a word that literally means to
47:36
live with faith. Uh, and I tell this story
47:39
about, uh. You know, I'm a tall person. I used to work
47:42
at a summer camp for a long time as a teenager and in my early 20s.
47:45
And I used to walk around kind of hunched over as a
47:48
lot of tall teenagers going through puberty do.
47:51
And my summer camp director was actually
47:54
taller than me. Um, he's a wonderful man.
47:56
Um, this is a Christian summer camp. And one day he came over to
47:59
me and he said, jesse, you're exactly as tall as God
48:02
made you to be. So roll your shoulders back, stand up tall,
48:05
and be who God has made you to be. And I've
48:08
never forgotten that. And I probably still slouch from time to time.
48:11
But, uh, I try to remember that. And
48:14
that's the kind of living I want to call Christians to
48:17
is that confident Christian living. Which isn't
48:20
an overconfidence. It's not ego driven,
48:23
arrogant.
48:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, it's not arrogant.
48:24
>> Jesse Zink: It's not arrogant. But it's simply saying, this is who God has
48:27
created us to be. Uh, you know, in my
48:30
tradition, I would describe that as a eucharistic community.
48:33
Uh, so let's roll our shoulders back and
48:36
be who God is calling us to be.
48:39
Uh, we might not be the same huge congregation, we might
48:42
not have our gracious and lovely buildings, uh, in the same
48:45
way, but we're still a, uh,
48:47
people committed to following the way of Jesus in the
48:50
world, welcoming, uh, strangers, uh,
48:53
not being afraid to take risks, not being afraid to make
48:56
mistakes. M. Knowing that the future
48:58
will be different from the present, but still being
49:01
faithful, uh, to the same God.
49:05
Uh, I mean, you did ask me for examples. I'll just give
49:08
one example because I was just attending this recently,
49:11
uh, the church that I attend. And I'll just say I had nothing
49:14
to do with this besides, uh, showing up, um,
49:17
for the last several months, uh, once a month has been doing,
49:20
uh, intergenerational, uh,
49:22
communion preparation and
49:24
reflection. Morning on Saturday morning. And it
49:27
begins with intergenerational
49:30
making, uh, of bread. So, um, making a different
49:34
kind of bread every time and thinking about where the food comes
49:36
from and how we make it. Uh, and then we
49:39
actually sit together and we talk about
49:42
some aspect of Eucharist,
49:45
uh, uh, again, in as
49:47
intergenerational a fashion as we can manage. And then
49:50
we eat together. So we eat the bread and we eat some other
49:53
foods that Jesus might have had. And in terms of the way it
49:56
is drawing together people from diverse
49:58
backgrounds, bringing, um, to the surface
50:01
all kinds of different views, uh, on the
50:03
Eucharist, actually engaging us in
50:06
activity, building, uh, uh, this
50:09
community, forming this community, uh, in a
50:11
eucharistic fashion, uh,
50:14
has just been wonderful to see. Uh,
50:17
and it does take some work, uh, to prepare
50:19
that, uh, as I say, I have nothing to do with it,
50:22
uh, besides eating the bread.
50:25
Uh, but it's been wonderful to see the
50:27
formation effects that, that is.
50:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's a beautiful example and it really ties
50:33
together a lot of the
50:36
themes that keep coming up in the, in the book.
50:40
Um, okay, let's, let's go with a
50:43
final question before we have our wrap
50:46
up. Um, questions.
50:49
You work in a theological college, you
50:51
form Christian leaders.
50:54
Um, if
50:57
you could sort of say like what you would
51:00
love for a Christian leader
51:02
to take away from your book to hear and what you're
51:05
trying to say, what, what
51:08
would that be like? What do you most
51:11
want new Christian leaders or
51:14
continuing Christian leaders to take away
51:17
here?
51:20
>> Jesse Zink: It's not about you. Uh, you're not the
51:23
Messiah. Uh, I'm not going to save the church and neither
51:26
are you. Uh, there already has been a Messiah,
51:29
uh, and so
51:31
uh, don't think it's all about
51:33
you. Don't burn yourself out,
51:36
uh, either implicitly or explicitly
51:39
making yourself the center of the story.
51:41
Uh, instead,
51:44
um, think about what a wonderful
51:47
message, uh, that we have to
51:50
proclaim, ah, to enact,
51:53
to embody, uh, in this
51:55
time, uh, and, and
51:58
that that message is ultimately
52:01
a message that's not about
52:04
information. I mean it is about information, but it's
52:07
a message that leads to a quality of
52:09
life, um, and it is a quality
52:12
of life. The um, words I use are
52:15
fullness, a wholeness of life, an abundance of life
52:18
that we can't find uh, anywhere
52:21
else. And yes it's
52:23
true, um, we uh,
52:26
need all of our resources of
52:28
creativity uh, to
52:31
proclaim and enact that message today because
52:34
we live at a different time, um, but we're
52:37
no different from Christians at any other point in the last
52:40
2,000 years. Um, so
52:43
what that means is we need leaders
52:45
who are uh, willing to
52:48
take risks, uh, as I've said,
52:50
um, uh, who are
52:53
willing to speak and to act
52:56
and to paint a vision of what God is doing in the
52:59
world and what God will be doing in the world,
53:01
um, to say that there is a future,
53:04
um, um, and we are
53:07
headed towards that, uh, even though in our
53:10
crisis shaped world it doesn't always feel like
53:12
that, uh, that
53:15
we exist on a timeline of God's action in the world
53:18
and we are one little piece of it, um, but
53:21
what a privilege it is, uh, to be that one little
53:24
piece of it. And so let's be attentive to
53:27
our context, uh, be attentive to the ways in which
53:30
it is pointing us away from that kingdom of God.
53:33
And then let's, as I say, take all of our
53:36
resources of creativity, of uh,
53:39
faith, uh, of hope, um,
53:41
and dream and imagine, uh,
53:44
the kind of community, uh,
53:47
uh, that we can be, that,
53:50
that embodies uh, that way of life.
53:52
And we know, uh, if we've
53:55
studied Christian history that
53:58
just what that looks like will be different in
54:01
different contexts and it will be different than
54:04
it's been in the past, uh, because the
54:07
church has always been changing, uh, but
54:10
that doesn't mean, uh, that God isn't
54:13
faithful because God is faithful,
54:15
uh, and God continues to sustain
54:18
us, uh, in this ministry. God, uh,
54:21
is the center of the story, uh, and what a wonderful
54:24
story that is for us to be a part of.
54:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, beautifully said. Um, that word
54:30
attentive is a theme word in the book
54:33
and it's a really rich word.
54:36
Um, and I, I do
54:39
think that it is actually
54:41
enormously,
54:43
uh, empowering and
54:46
energizing to uh,
54:49
dispel the, the main
54:52
character energy that we can sometimes
54:55
put on ourselves when we're in the life
54:58
of the church. Right. Like, yeah, we're not, we're
55:01
not in charge of saving the church. We're not the
55:03
Messiah. And um,
55:06
that is very empowering
55:10
to know that. Um,
55:12
so, yeah, it's a
55:15
fantastic book. Um, I
55:17
am so appreciative of the
55:20
conversations, um, that
55:25
you and I have been part of in the Anglican
55:27
Church, um,
55:30
how the book really kind of speaks, I think, to
55:33
uh, what we're hearing from leaders
55:36
and congregations across Canada,
55:40
uh, across North America, um,
55:43
how we're feeling, how we're responding.
55:46
Um, this book is really a must
55:49
read for all
55:52
of us.
55:53
>> Jesse Zink: Um, from your lips to the listeners ears, I
55:56
hope. Thank you.
55:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, no, um, it's
56:00
really good. Very using that word
56:03
attentive again. Very attentive to
56:06
what is happening and how people are feeling.
56:09
And you will walk away from reading
56:12
this book with a sense of hope
56:14
and uh, empowerment. So
56:17
thank you, Jesse.
56:18
>> Jesse Zink: Thank you.
56:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll come back
56:22
for uh, some rapid fire closing
56:25
questions.
56:28
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
56:32
We are going into our closing questions
56:35
with Jesse Zink and
56:37
uh, Jesse, if you were pope for a
56:40
day, what would that day look
56:43
like? What would be on your agenda?
56:47
>> Jesse Zink: I'd, uh, probably be torn between asking, uh, for a
56:50
private tour of the Vatican museums or writing the
56:52
encyclical that allows women to be ordained.
56:55
I hope I would have the fortitude to uh,
56:58
resist the temptation and write that encyclical and not go to the
57:01
museum all day.
57:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: I don't know. Maybe you could split your time between the
57:05
two.
57:08
Okay. What theologian or
57:10
historical Christian figure would you want to meet
57:13
or bring back to life, have supper with?
57:18
>> Jesse Zink: Um, well, I'll just take
57:20
Jesus, uh, off the table.
57:22
Ah. Uh, you know, and
57:25
I'm a very historically inclined person, uh,
57:28
as this book will make clear. So there's. There's no shortage of people.
57:31
I'd love to pick, uh, their brains. But I think in the
57:34
context of this conversation, in this book, uh, I would
57:37
pick two. I, uh, grew up at a church called St. John's
57:40
Episcopal Church in Northampton, Massachusetts.
57:42
Uh, and, uh, there were two people who
57:45
were associated with that church long before I ever arrived in
57:48
the early 20th century. The, uh, first was a man named William
57:51
Stringfellow, who, as a child, grew up, uh, at that
57:54
church, uh, as I did. Uh, he went on to be a lawyer,
57:57
uh, and a member of the Episcopal Church and a
58:00
theologian who wrote a number of really wonderful
58:03
books. Uh, and he's also a very
58:05
apocalyptically inclined, uh, theologian.
58:08
And I think I'm influenced a lot, uh,
58:11
by him. He's also a very sacramentally oriented
58:13
theologian, uh, so I would love to
58:16
talk to him. The other person, uh, who used
58:19
to be the priest or the rector of that church in
58:22
Northampton was a man named Stephen Bain, who,
58:25
uh, went on to be a bishop in the Episcopal Church and
58:28
then went on to be, uh, in the 1960s, a really
58:30
critical figure, uh, in the global, uh,
58:33
Anglican Communion. Um, and Bain wrote a lot
58:36
as well, and he had a lot to say about how God is
58:39
still acting in the world, um, but how the church needs
58:42
to change. And. And so, although I don't quote either
58:45
of them directly in this book, I feel that both of
58:48
them are big influences on me. And I would
58:51
love for the three of us to have dinner sometime and
58:54
talk about our common connection, uh, to the same church and
58:57
hear what they have to say about how, uh, our
59:00
world is today.
59:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, I think that, uh, this. That
59:04
is always my favorite question in these
59:07
interviews that I get to have. And
59:10
nobody has ever given those particular
59:13
answers before, so that's delightful.
59:15
>> Jesse Zink: I love that little Billy
59:18
Stringfellow as he was when he was growing up in Northampton.
59:21
Um, I would love to
59:24
have been fly on the wall for some of his Sunday school
59:26
classes.
59:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, that's great. Just a fantastic
59:31
answer. What will history remember
59:34
from our current time and place? Place?
59:37
>> Jesse Zink: Um, well, maybe this isn't a very positive answer, but
59:40
I sometimes think the idolatry
59:43
of economics, uh, of money, of
59:46
a, uh, deeply constrained notion of value that
59:49
thinks the only thing that matters is the price of an
59:51
object. I, um, think the way in
59:54
which that is damaging us, uh, and
59:57
leading us, uh, to, among so much else, a
1:00:00
deeply disordered relationship with God's creation.
1:00:03
Um, I hope we can transcend
1:00:05
that, uh, and so we can look back on it as something
1:00:08
in the past.
1:00:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's right. What are your
1:00:13
hopes for the future of Christianity that might be connected
1:00:16
to your previous answer?
1:00:20
>> Jesse Zink: Well, I would just, uh, go back to the word confidence that
1:00:23
I used earlier. Um, let's roll our shoulders
1:00:26
back, stand, uh, up tall and not with
1:00:28
arrogance, uh, but with
1:00:31
boldness, uh, and humility. Uh, let's
1:00:34
be the confident, uh, Christians God has called
1:00:37
us to be in the way that we live our lives together in
1:00:40
community.
1:00:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, where can people find more about
1:00:44
you, Jesse?
1:00:47
>> Jesse Zink: Uh,
1:00:50
I do have a website, uh,
1:00:52
JesseZink.com that I try to keep up to date with
1:00:55
at least information about the books that I've written. Uh, I'm not so
1:00:58
good about, uh, other things. I am fortunate that I have a name
1:01:01
that's somewhat unusual. Um, so if you Google
1:01:04
Jesse Zinc, uh, you'll be able to find it. Uh, I
1:01:06
must say I'm so confused by the present state of,
1:01:09
the present fractured state of social media these days that
1:01:12
I really struggle to stay on top of where things are happening.
1:01:15
And usually I just throw up my hands and walk away from it all.
1:01:18
But, um, uh, you
1:01:21
can find me on Facebook, you, uh,
1:01:24
can find me on the website. You, uh, can just google my name and you'll
1:01:27
find my email address at work and just drop me a line. I love
1:01:30
having conversations, uh, with people, email, uh,
1:01:33
or otherwise. And happy, uh, to hear from
1:01:36
you, uh, if and when you have a chance to read this book about what
1:01:39
you thought.
1:01:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time today,
1:01:43
Jesse. Thank you for, uh,
1:01:46
the thought and the
1:01:49
attentiveness that went into writing it.
1:01:52
And um, I
1:01:56
think that this is going to be a really important offering
1:01:59
to the church.
1:02:01
>> Jesse Zink: Well, thank you and.
1:02:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Sorry, go ahead.
1:02:03
>> Jesse Zink: Well, thank you and thank you for all the work that you
1:02:06
and Loren do on this podcast.
1:02:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you. Well, we always end with a word
1:02:11
of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
1:02:13
Jesse, and also with you.
1:02:23
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:02:26
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:02:29
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1:02:31
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