Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Khyati Bhatt on Understanding Body Language, Decoding Non-Verbal Cues (#049)

Transcript

Khyati Bhatt on Understanding Body Language, Decoding Non-Verbal Cues (#049) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Nonverbal communication is a subject that evolved in that part of our brain which it developed millions of years back.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to think of yourself as that monkey or the ape in the jungle who didn't have any language to communicate with, right?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: So how did we signal to each other, or how did we pick up when there was some kind of discomfort in people around us?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: The apes around us, to put it simply, right?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that is the logic that is still as relevant in today's world.
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• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely connecting with you and uh having a conversation on body language, non-verbal communication.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Your body of work around this area is over a decade old, and that's something to talk about in terms of your passion and interest in this area.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a ton for agreeing to be a guest on the Contra Minds podcast.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Swami, for inviting me.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've got an absolute fantastic line of uh guests who come, and it's my privilege to be there on your show today.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for inviting me and looking forward to it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Kathy.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so one of the uh questions that I wanted to start off with uh so where is this interest in you know this area which which is around nonverbal communication, body language?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Where did where did it all start?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I can see that you know you were in TCS and uh you are on the uh other side, and suddenly uh you know I could see that you got interested in this area.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So how did this interest come about, which is not something which is uh something that I see in people uh who are in that area, and suddenly I see people moving, somebody like you moving into this area.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did this interest happen?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a great question.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I've always been interested in you know being an observer and looking around and getting more of a listener mode on.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's been me since my childhood days.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and when my father is a doctor, so when I was a child, I used to go sit next to him and observe his conversations with his patients and try and understand, you know, what's going on, how are they interacting with each other.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then in college days, I read a lot about different books, one of which was on human behavior, and that's what got me hooked onto this subject.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: And ever since then, since I like the subject, I have been trying to uh technically apply what I've learned over the years, and then one day when uh you know I thought that it's time to start my own business.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's when I went through all the different experiences I had, and that's when I decided that why not just get into something that's been a passion for such a long time, which was to observe people.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a very small brief gist of what got me to start a business that's uh solely focused on body language.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I also read somewhere that uh there was this inspiration that you got from uh CIA training that you went through, and you were completely inspired by the way they really uh observed human behavior and the nonverbal uh body language that people show during uh you know interrogation and during the way they uh look at people.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you talk to me about that experience and how did that experience become a huge influence in what you do today?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so uh it's actually FBI.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, my teacher is an ex-FBI special agent, his name is Joe Navarro.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: When I was uh looking to start this business, one thing I knew is uh when you want to present yourself as a specialist in a subject, people would want to see you have being an authority in that topic.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's how it works, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So just having read books and having practiced is was not enough.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I went looking for the right teacher in this uh subject.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Joe Navarro is somebody who's uh been in this field for more than 40 years.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: He was uh part of in fact, he headed the behavioral unit at FBI.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: I went through the way his uh training module was structured, and that's exactly what I was looking at for somebody to validate the kind of learnings I've had.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now, uh when we talk about this subject, it's one thing to be able to read, like uh what does somebody's crossed arms mean?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean when somebody starts nodding a little more than they generally do, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: But it's another to be able to apply it in your normal work life, like it can be your personal life, it can be your professional life, but in day-to-day life, how do we utilize it?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I was looking at, and this is a module that helped me to understand that okay, in interrogation rooms, this is how body language pans out, but I can apply it in the same kind of techniques for the professionals that I work with, the leaders that I work with in so and so manner, and that was the entire experience.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, I think around nine months of uh grilling, looking around, intensely observing, making notes, and that's uh how the certification went about and got me the master in non-verbal communication from uh fantastic.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so tell me, uh having done something like this, uh how important is it for professionals uh to understand this whole area of nonverbal communication and why is it important for us to have this observation and learning around this nonverbal uh communication and body language understanding?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think it's important?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's absolutely a part of any and every communication that we have.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we have, you know, split it, we meaning usually when we talk about communication, we split it into verbal communication and non-verbal communication.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea is body language belongs to the sphere of communication, and when we say communication, it's not just speaking to somebody, any kind of uh behavior that's happening around you, you get a sense of what somebody is thinking, feeling, or intends to do if you are able to observe their body language.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that is why it's an absolute must to be able to observe when it's me, like as a professional who's trying to communicate to somebody.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: I need to know how I can make my communication more impactful.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I need to know what it is that's getting communicated because it's not just words that most of us are focusing on.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: We are also seeing how is somebody communicating, and at the same time, for me to be effective at my communication, I also need to be able to decipher what's coming in from the other side, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this other side most of the times could be one-on-one or it could be a room full of people, so that is why body language is an absolute must for everybody to be able to understand and apply in their daily lives.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if I were to uh you know, uh start somewhere and probably uh, you know, uh for the audience who's listening, uh they are probably hearing the importance of body language for the first time because we are a country enamored by engineers and doctors, and you know, uh somebody who's actually running a profession where you're teaching body language and how you communicate is something that you run your life on.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if I were to start to understand this, how do I take my first steps?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is really the little practice that I need to look at?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I take simple steps to move forward?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'll take it up a step at a time.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, to start out with, uh, since you mentioned that you know India is uh what we are talking about right now, thankfully, as a nation or as a culture, we are what we call as high context dependent culture, which means whether we understand the word body language or not, most of the times we are observing people very unconsciously.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, when we say that uh they said it in this manner or this is how you know they were showing their anger or style of speaking, we are already referring to non-mobile communication.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, that being said, when I had started out, uh, the awareness in the nation was a little less.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people used to believe that uh non-mobile communication or body language means how do you put across yourself when somebody is looking at you or the impression that you're making over the last decade of our work?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think the awareness in the country has improved quite a lot significantly.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, most people now refer to how can I bring in more impact through my communication by focusing on body language.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure we'll talk a little more also about how to understand the other side.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, coming back to your question about how to take that first step.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that is the simplest that I suggest to anybody who wants to start is try and understand how uh we understand any stranger in the room because uh non-verbal communication is a uh subject that evolved in that part of our brain which it developed millions of years back.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to think of yourself as that monkey or the ape in the jungle who didn't have any language to communicate with, right?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, how did we signal to each other or how did we pick up when there was some kind of discomfort in people around us, the apes around us, to put it simply, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that is the logic that is still as relevant in today's world.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, to give you a simple uh what should I say, definition of understanding body language, when you look at anybody, you try and understand is this person looking comfortable or not comfortable?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: That is as basic as it gets.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody is looking comfortable, how do you understand it through their body language?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: They will either be relaxed or they will open themselves up or they'll come closer to you because they are feeling comfortable, they like what you are seeing, they want to know more or they want to be invested more in that conversation or communication.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And on the other side, if somebody is not feeling too good or they are uncomfortable with how the communication or the way they are thinking is going, what is it that they will do?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: They will try to either shut down, they will try and move away, or in today's era, what is more important is we touch to feel more comfortable because we are a polite society, we don't like to say on anybody's face point blank that you know you should stop speaking.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we try and you know rub in different ways.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you know, I'm putting my hair at the back of my ears, or I'm rubbing my hands, I'm touching my neck in order to feel more comfortable in the situation.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So this is as basic as body language gets.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you just understand this mantra, then I think you have already taken not one step but five steps into understanding this wonderful science.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, fantastic! So I must be careful about how I am actually talking to you because you will keep reading me with all my body gestures.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's interesting.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if I were in a say, let me let me you know portray a situation.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Say, for example, I'm going in for uh a client meeting, and uh and it's important for leaders uh to actually uh present themselves with a lot of uh uh you know uh impact, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me not use the word confidence because typically body language uh you know it's majority of the times you keep talking about looking confident, but I believe what body language gives you is your inner feelings that and beliefs that start actually coming out when uh you know when you're talking to people.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to be focusing on the deeper aspect of body language.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a leader and I'm actually getting into a client situation.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what is important for me is to uh it's not just the knowledge that I have, but it's also about the con the I won't use the word confidence, but the impact that I should make in that room, right?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I pick up these nonverbal body language gestures saying that somebody is not comfortable, somebody is actually looking for more information, somebody is seeking out uh information.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do I start uh observing this and what do you think are important and how do I keep uh how do I keep uh track of as I present, how do I keep a track of this and what should I be doing to uh you know to be uh aware of something like this?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that's a lot of questions.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let me take them up one at a time.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, like you rightly said, uh, you know, there are lots and lots of parts of our body that are all giving out signals at the same time.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, just to give you a fun fact, uh our face itself, okay, uh the amount of expressions that we can make with our face that varies anywhere from the recorded number is anywhere from 8,000 to 10,000.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's the number of facial expressions that one's face is able to make.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so as an individual, you and I, we would be making anywhere from 200 to 300 different expressions in our lifetime.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's how it goes.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you just imagine the entire body is there, we are just talking about the face, how much is there when it comes to body language?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that's just one fun fact for you since you mentioned about you know different parts of the body and how they communicate.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now, coming to the example that you took up, uh right at the minute when a leader steps in, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's where that first impression comes in.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: That the way you walk, the way you step up to your uh place in that room, and you sit down and you make your presence felt, that's going to project how you are creating that confidence or the impact from the minute you enter.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we call usually as first impression.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: So making that first impression is absolutely important.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now, coming to how you create that impact.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, as a leader, what happens is uh see you want to be able to do a lot of things.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you're talking about a leader in particular, you want to tell people that you can trust me, you want to be able to show that you are in command of your conversation, you also want to show energy and passion for what you are saying.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so if we take these up one at a time, how do you show people that uh you are somebody they can trust by staying open?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when we say open, it's a very generic word that you know you should have open body language, but how do you do that?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just crossing arms is not the only thing that you know we uh talk about.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: One thing is showing hands in a conversation is very important, that is what helps people to build trust instantly.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why, if you wanted to understand again, you just think of primitive days and the entire logic of non-noble communication becomes very simple to understand.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if I wanted to attack somebody and if I wanted to, you know, uh hit you or something, right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: I would have a weapon in my hand.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would use to attack, like a physical attack, not a verbal attack.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that is why looking at my hands is very important.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's how you build the trust from the minute you step in, that you have purposeful movements, you walk into your place on the table, you make your presence felt, and as soon as you sit down, you ensure that your body language is open by having your hands visible.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's what helps.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, while you're doing all this, you also would have to, you know, somewhere take a look at the room, understand who the influencer is, who the decision maker is going to be, what is the audience all about?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: How are you going to connect with that audience?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is the audience looking a little apprehensive?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Then you would want to remember that you want to tone down your body language because leaders usually have a little alpha dominant kind of body language, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you see that the room is looking a little apprehensive, then you want to uh again let them speak first and then you know steer the conversation forward.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel that the audience is already looking sharp, in control, maybe a little more dominant, then you want to uh be yourself or tune up your alpha in the room.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So this is all we are talking about, those first two, three seconds when you're just sitting down for that conversation, then you move on.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, how do you control the conversation?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: How do you uh ensure that you stay relevant in that conversation?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where looking at the other side makes it uh you know an absolute must.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: How are people's reactions changing while you are talking to them?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are they able to absorb what it is that you are communicating both with your words and your body language?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because we cannot forget that words are also important.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you just keep focusing on body language, that makes no sense, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because your non-verbal and verbal communication go hand in hand.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's you know how you steer the conversation, depending on what's the reactions happening in the room, that's what speaks for somebody in command and control.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, one frequent question that I also get is um, do I need to react to everything?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you can see that you know somebody is looking a little apprehensive or somebody started closing down, do you need to start attending to every signal of body language that you see?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's not important, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: You need to know what is relevant, who is the right person who is uh the one that's going to create an impact for you, or who's going to sign that deal for you, and those are the people, also the influencer.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times, people miss out on the influencer because the influencer is not necessarily the one who's talking the most, but through their uh uh non-mobile signals with the decision maker, you can a lot of times, in fact, majority of the times, you can make out who that influencer is, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, these are all a lot of different cues that happen, and obviously, uh any conversation has got different stages that happen.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: That will depend on what is your objective in that conversation.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, we can talk a little more about that, but just to give a gist of what all I mentioned, how you step into the room, how do you build trust through open body language, how do you understand who is what in that room, and you steer your body language or tweak it depending on what you are seeing from your audience, and then you take control of that conversation yourself.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's what makes for an impactful leadership body language.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic, fantastic.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so one of the things uh you know leaders go through uh is this whole area of building trust, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh especially if you're a leader and you've got a whole set of people uh whom you uh you know whom you uh you know manage whom who look up to you.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so what does it take for leaders uh to actually build authenticity?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I always hear is the leader thinks he or she is authentic authentic, uh but the other people in the room uh somehow figure out that no.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there is authentic messages that are coming out.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then you end up in a turn-all or in a uh you know meeting or in a conversation.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: The authenticity is the foundation of building relationships, right?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what are the cues that you know I need to uh you know present myself with, especially if I have to be authentic.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And authenticity, you cannot make up authenticity, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, what's important is what are the cues that make people believe that I'm authentic?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how do people perceive authenticity?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: That is another way of looking at it.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you could approach it from both ways, and if you can give some uh idea about it, that'll be great.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a very relevant question because uh most of the leaders I work with, this is the thing in their mind.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: How can I create an impact with the right kind of authenticity?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely relevant.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now, uh, if you try and understand what goes on in a leader's daily life, right from you know uh stepping into every meeting is different.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there is one meeting where they are handling a conflict, second meeting where they are trying to pacify uh say an HR who's not very happy, then they are into that third meeting where it's all you know bang, bang, bang sales happening, the fourth one where they are themselves presenting to their leader or their boss.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there are so many different things happening that for them to stay authentic, it can actually be very challenging because uh I mean, if you are somebody who's just uh stepping in from an emotionally uh heavy conversation into this one now, okay.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that you are in that kind of a situation before you are here, and I see you somewhere a little disturbed.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would feel you're not authentic, but that's not it, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's because there was something that just happened before you stepped in, and that's why you know you're taking that time to settle in.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, how much time you take to snap out of one conversation or one mood or one emotion and step into the other one.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: That is what helps leaders to be able to bifurcate or uh uh let's say you know be 100% into that conversation with the person across from them.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is one thing.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Second thing is uh introspection is very important.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when we think that you know somebody is not looking authentic, a lot of times it could be that what you are saying through your words and what that body language is signaling, that's not meeting, that's not matching up.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: There are various reasons why it happens.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: One of the major reasons is uh you know leaders like to not uh always tell you what's on their mind, it could be because they might think that you know you might or might not get it in the right perspective, it could be because you're not in that stage where you might understand what all is going on outside this meeting, okay, and it can also be because there are lots of power plays that happen in organizations, so keeping all that in mind, uh, if you come across as somebody whose words and body language are not matching, it can look a little unauthentic or inauthentic to somebody.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, introspection is what helps.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: How am I coming across?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: How are my words projecting?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: What is my body language talking at this time?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And wherever you feel that you know somewhere I'm not comfortable, it's always okay to either take a step back or ask more questions to the person sitting across from you or be able to voice it out, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um because people feel that you know I need to control my body language, that doesn't work.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: That is also a reason why you come across as inauthentic because you're trying to uh could control what you are saying, you're trying to control your body language, and like because I said Indians are good at observing, you will make it out like that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: That you know something is there which is not right, this uh person is not telling me, or my boss is not telling me what I need to know.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So trying to, you know, make a sense of all of this helps.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, introspecting yourself, being a little more open, and trying to snap out or learning how to snap out of one uh you know communication or conversation with somebody and stepping into the other one.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that uh you know that always comes up uh when you're uh you know when you're looking at authenticity, uh most often when you look at leaders, they believe that when they present themselves as uh being a little vulnerable, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they just feel that maybe uh they lose control.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: But do you believe that when there is a a certain sense of vulnerability in the body language, does it build trust and authenticity?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I think personally that it depends a little on the situation.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: See, body language is always highly, highly context specific.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: So while we can understand, you know, what is the meaning of a certain uh body expression, facial gesture, hand gesture, whatever it be, but how can how do you decipher that in a particular situation?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: That depends on what that situation is, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to be able to understand the context to get the right sense of this.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would say to this question.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so to that extent, uh uh you know uh what is the challenge of a bias or a cognitive bias of uh you know the body language that you perceive, right?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because typically I think a lot of miscommunication or misinterpretation, if I were to call, is my cognitive bias on uh you know how I uh perceive what the person is saying.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So does cognitive bias uh you know create a huge amount of misrepresent misrepresentation on you know what I'm communicating?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And is that something that you know if I were a receiver of a message, uh what are the kind of filters I should put?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because typically that's really where I see there is a breakdown, right?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with me on that?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so uh biases.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can talk about biases and you know that entire conversation would go on and on.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's the number of biases we have, and that is why uh staying objective really helps, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you try and understand the person in front of you through what you are reading through their body language, because body language is something that is absolute honest.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are you know a lot of moments when you want to say something, but the body language is already told, so you you can tell the other person I already understood what you're saying because it's very, very authentic.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of them are cognitive, a lot of them are also just you know observation biases.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So getting rid of them it takes a lot of effort, but ultimately, uh you know, looking at what's right in front of you and trying to put it into the right perspective that is what helps.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll give you one example.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: For example, if I know your baseline, that's what we call baseline, meaning how do you usually behave, how do you usually communicate.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I might have some idea about it that you know if you like something, usually you you nod back, or you know, you are very transparent in communicating.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm giving an example that this is what I like, this is what I'm trying to process, this is what I don't like.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to understand and put today's conversation as a uh what should I say, map it to your usual uh self that helps me to understand you a little more better, and there I am using a lot of cognitive uh processing, but it's in the right manner because there is no bias that is involved, right?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: But we should make it a little more simpler for the listeners.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: The idea being whatever you see in front of you, try and put it in the right framework.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel that you're not able to understand what's coming in from the other side, you can probably ask a few questions, uh, but the problem there is a lot of times we don't know that you know I am coming across as somebody who's closed, or I'm coming across as somebody who's not agreeing.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if you ask, are you not agreeing?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: nobody will say yes or no.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: You need to ask questions to understand whether the person is agreeing or not.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I might ask, you know, if I see that you're not agreeing with me, I will not ask you, are you agreeing with me or not?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: I might ask that did this point make sense to you?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: Would you like to add something to what I just shared?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: The idea being not to point out what you're seeing in terms of body language, but asking the relevant questions to get it correct.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that is something that I really feel works when it comes to removing biases both ways.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like as a speaker, I have biases, even the listener has a lot of biases, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that's nice.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: So being your objective self, I think is a very interesting point that you make.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh so so when we're really talking body language, uh, you know, what I thought uh you know can make it interesting for the audience is uh how do I assess a few situations?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that you know, uh let me throw some situations and obviously the context which you said is important, right?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh starts to uh you know play up, and therefore uh you know you would probably say this is the way people uh uh typically uh you know uh behave, and this is really the kind of body language that they show, is really what I think uh I wanted to take your uh you know input uh as we do this conversation.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for the for example, I walk into a uh you know uh meeting, and uh how do I observe anxiety?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh anxiety usually there are uh a few ways of understanding now.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: See when you say anxiety, also I have a few things to add there.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just begin with what body language will look like.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, maybe the people will not be as responsive because there's already something on their minds, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you might see them not relaxed, not uh directly responding to what you are saying.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: They might look a little distracted, or you might see signs of discomfort.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some I mentioned, you know, some kind of touch, or they might be behind some barriers, etc.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I'll tell you just one thing as soon as you step into a meeting, a lot of times it takes that one or two minutes to strike the drapo, so that anxiety might not necessarily be because you have walked into a room or because they are anticipating what is the conversation going to be about, it could be something as simple as you know they have not just settled into the meeting.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the way to get a validation because you get a sense that okay, this person looks a little uh anxious or you know nervous or not very settled down.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: How do you get a confirmation that I'm looking at this, but is it a right inference or not?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you look for something that is called cluster.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: What happens after?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, say you just settle down, uh, you try to shake hands with them before settling down, you feel that that handshake was very limp or not very uh invested handshake, so you understand that okay, maybe this person actually needs to uh you know release their anxiety.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Then you start a conversation, uh, you feel that you know you know the person well, so you can come directly to the point.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: You tell them that you know I am here to uh maybe you know discuss this topic.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know you are a little anxious, but uh this is how I'm looking at it, and you see them start to relax, then you know that okay, they were a little anxious, but because you've given them a context and they've started relaxing, so you can have a better conversation.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you just start having a small talk because you don't know the person at the other end and they start relaxing, then you know that that anxiety was because they didn't know a little more about you, right?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea being what you see in front of you, you take a confirmation of what you are probably looking at by observing how that body language changes as you change your conversation, but also knowing how to do that conversation.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: So once you put those two together, that's what works out well.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's the body language of uh relaxation?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, if you if you feel if if you feel that I'm relaxed in this conversation, what do you think is the body language?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, anybody who's relaxed, okay, uh there are different ways in which different people show that they are relaxed.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: The easiest to spot is on the face.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there will be small areas that usually show tension, uh, say your lips, your uh below the eyes area, the forehead, these are very quick to respond when somebody starts getting a little anxious.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so when you don't see much happening there, or when I'm talking and I'm seeing you responding back at the same time, right?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when will you respond back?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: You'll respond back when you are either uh trying to make sense of what I'm saying or you are hundred percent with me, or the last could also be that you're just you know putting on a show, but then the other body language will not match up.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is usually how you can make out that somebody is uh relaxed in the conversation.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh how do people uh you know uh display their dislike without saying they dislike you in the meeting?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh see, dislike is something that's very interesting because if you can spot dislike when it's happening, you can steer the conversation or you can change what's happening in the moment.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, dislike uh sometimes it's very simple.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: For example, somebody might just you know press their lips together, somebody might just uh uh flutter their eyes very fast together, somebody might purse their lips together.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: So these are all very small signs that you know something is in their mind which they want to talk about, or they didn't enjoy a little about what you are saying, then there are major signs of dislike, like uh this you will see more in people who are transparent, but leaders usually restrict their body language, so you will have to look for those minor signals, okay?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: So the more uh bigger dislike signals could be somebody moving away, or if they were nodding, they just stop responding altogether, or they will cross their arms, okay.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or uh if there is any uh way in which you can bring a barrier in between, that happens very quickly.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Barrier could be something as simple as a phone, like the phone was on the side, the person just picks it up, and you know they put it in between the two of us.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: There is no reason, they are not even looking at the phone, or if there is say a laptop, laptop was on the side, but for some reason, suddenly that laptop just comes in between.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: The glass was there on the side, glass just comes in between.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: So these are all you know small things that happen which tell you that this person wants to move away.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: These are little easier to observe, so uh, you know, those who are not very observant about their body language are the ones who will show these more greater ways of you know showing discomfort.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: More visible ways it's what uh you are saying, right?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes um uh see the other uh important thing that I see is also uh we are a society where we don't disagree openly, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the body language of not saying but disagreeing?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's very similar to dislike, okay?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because you start either closing down or you start showing that I'm not too uh much with you.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: You could also say that we put on a social smile.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: A social smile is kind of a polite smile that I'm giving out.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when we don't agree, there are hundreds of reasons why we don't agree.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: For example, my friend might share their tiffin with me, and she asks me, you know, how did you like the food?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to be polite to her.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like I want to lie to her, but I don't want her to feel uh, you know, that I'm being rude.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that yeah, it's good.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I didn't enjoy it as much.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: So at those times, uh, you know, the kind of smile that we give it's more of a polite or a social smile.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then what also happens, uh, you know, when I'm trying to deliberately control is you will see that the way the person is responding suddenly becomes a little held back.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: For example, see, everybody has got their own styles of being expressive.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Some of us are very transparent, some of us are less transparent, some of our us are impossible to read, but that increases a lot more when somebody becomes guarded or they don't want you to read or they are trying to be polite, and the last thing that you would see is disagreement.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Word saying something else and the body language suggesting something very different.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always good to uh let go when you can see that the person is just trying to be polite, because if you start attending to every discrepancy that you see in words and body language, then as a society it becomes difficult to you know blend in or to survive together.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: So uh even though you can see everything that's happening, uh, you know, sometimes you just want to let it go.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing that uh you know uh I have seen, I'm gonna uh you know tell you how I read body language, and uh so I get into a meeting and I'm meeting somebody uh who I don't know, and I'm presenting.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as I present, one cue that I pick up uh is as I go through my presentation, uh you know, assuming I've given my visiting card.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, the person picks up my visiting card in the middle of the meeting and sees it uh you know, once for me that's a cue that I've connected with that person, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because uh you know the person wants to know who's this, he may you know he seems to be making sense.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh looks like he understands my business.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore, are there such visual cues where people start connecting with a stranger in a meeting where you're out to go there to do business?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there are these cues that you pick up.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm giving an example where I'm not an expert in body language uh as you are, uh, but I know that say this is a gesture that makes me believe that you know I've connected with that person, right?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: So are there such uh you know what I call as props uh that help me uh I know understand this because many of our IT professionals, for example, are presenting to the uh you know the uh professionals in the US uh in other markets where such body language is very important because you are you know you're presenting through uh uh you know through a VC, uh you know, you're talking about your project.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important for you to understand if you know if the message and the information that you're passing on is connecting with them.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the kind of props for me if I were an IT professional listening to this conversation?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how should I be uh you know uh looking at some of these gestures and are there props for me to understand it?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is what I wanted to check with you.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I think that's a great observation that you made.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody checking the visiting card to make sense of you know who is this person who's presenting?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let me know a little more about you.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I will just put a word of caution there because when we talk about non-verbal communication, the minute details are very important.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: For example, somebody is listening into this conversation, they go back, and in their conversation, they see somebody picking up a card, but there the person is not reading the name, they are just looking, they are you know playing with the card or they're just uh rubbing the edges of the card.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: These are all displacement activities, like things that we do because we don't want to show what's actually happening in our minds, right?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or we are getting a little distracted, that's why you are fiddling with things around you.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: So these minute details are very important, but the one you said that's absolutely correct.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, if somebody is looking at that card and trying to make sense, then they really do want to know more about you.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now coming back to your question.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as a presenter, there are two things.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Things that are absolutely important.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: One is as soon as you step into that meeting, whether it's offline, physical, or it's online, looking at your audience, you should know how you want to tweak your conversation.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many times when I have to work with people to help them to either simplify or you know make their conversations a little more uh nuanced or bring in more uh what should you say, the expert kind of language.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because depending on the audience, you need to tweak your conversation and your body language.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that is one thing.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: So making sense of that audience is an absolute must before you start presenting.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Second thing is are they ready to deep dive or not?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: That readiness will show uh if you do small talk or you know, as soon as you start the mimicry that happens now.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: This mimicry is easier to see online because uh you know people are also just looking at you, they are staring at the screens, there's just so much of you and them on the screen.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: When I say mimicry, what happens is maybe you give a smile, it could be a polite smile because uh real smile doesn't come very easy to most of us, but you will see that instant polite smile coming up on others as well.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that gives you that cue that people are ready to listen in.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is what helps you to understand not just the smile, but this kind of mimicry.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: For example, you show that I'm very excited to begin.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us use eyebrow raise, you will see that eyebrow raise happening.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: See, like I mentioned, and you showed that eyebrow raise right away.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that is uh you know, people are tuned in, so you should wait for people to get the tuned in and then you begin.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you wait for that moment and begin, then it helps uh to take that presentation faster to see people you know actually absorbed in.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, what happens is you will start out because you know you have that agenda to start, and you just start making a presentation, you will not see that response coming in.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: So wait for the right moment.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: The way people will show that is uh either by responding non-verbally uh or when you ask simple questions, right?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: You will see that response coming in.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: So wait for that and then you begin again when you are presenting.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you see that your audience has stopped responding in different ways, so for example, this becomes a little easier.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let me say that you know, online offline has got their different ways in which you can decipher this.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: For example, online, most of us we have a habit of nodding a little more because we know that you know the other person can't see much of our body language, or we might be seated upright, or you know, most of us don't go to the back and sit because we know that you know the other person is uh expecting us to listen in.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when this changes, you will see response rate going down, like the nods might go down, or uh when you're asking a question, you don't see that attention coming to the question, the person was distracted, uh like their eye contact was somewhere else, and that eye contact does not change.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so these are minute things that will tell you that your audience is getting a little distracted.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: There are obviously different ways to bring them back in, but right now we are just discussing how you know that you know the audience is with you or not with you.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: In an offline setup, the way you will start getting to know is people start distancing themselves.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: Distancing could be that they were oriented towards you, that body was towards you, it goes to the other direction, or it becomes more inclined towards the other people, or uh maybe they were leaning in, they stop leaning in, right?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: So these are ways mostly it's through the orientation that you get to know that the person was listening to you, they are not listening anymore, right?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: So online, offline there are different ways of knowing, but uh people respond, usually they respond.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you are unsure that a person whether they are with you or not, you just ask a simple question.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: The question need not be a question where the other person needs to respond back, it can even be a rhetoric question where you are just asking them to stimulate their brains and be with you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: You should see them responding back in some way or the other.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: It could be through an expression of surprise if you asked a question that wants them to be a little surprised.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: It could be an expression of showing a little smile if you are you know evoking humor.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: So while you are talking, how is that response coming in through their expressions and body language that tells you whether the audience is with you or not?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant explanation, and so many takeaways in the uh examples uh uh that you gave.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I wanted, Cathy, is uh uh you know, uh there are different culture codes for different uh people, you know, there is uh you know Japanese, there is uh the Australian, there is the American, there is the British.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: So are there different culture codes that we need to be aware of when we are actually uh interacting with uh people from different cultures?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I understand these culture codes?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so uh broadly, you know, there are uh places where you can just read up, you know, how open is the culture?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Usually uh Asian cultures are more context-specific, so we expect people to pick up our body language and you know get a hint as to what's going on.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because as a uh society or as a region, most of us want to be polite, so you need to really look at their body language and be good at looking.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I take the example of Japanese, okay, they will smile back at you even if they just want to tell you that I'm listening to you.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: Smiling does not mean they are going to agree with you.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm saying that you know, looking deeply at what that actual body language is is helps.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the times, what we see is you know something that's superficial, that the person was smiling, that means they were agreeing with me, right?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: So if you were looking at their response rate, if they were looking at whether they were open or they were closed, those will give you enough cues to know.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing is most of us observe just the upper part of the body.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at the entire thing, in fact, feet are very good at telling you what's going on in a person's mind.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, especially for those cultures which believe in putting on a polite facade, it will be easy if you can focus on one their body language and two more of their lower part of the body that will give you more cues.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, coming to more of the European or the American culture, they are more upfront, they want to, they even expect you to tell them what's on your mind on their minds.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, when uh the first time I had visited Europe, because we have a presence there, and I was with my own colleagues there, we had interacted so many times over video calls and phone calls and all, but being with them in person, we had those minor conflicts because they are so upfront about things that as an Indian I sometimes found it that a little uh what should I say, confrontational.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to expect that when you go in to talk to people from different cultures.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, there are a lot of universal signals.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: When we say universal signals, they mean that if a body language changes in this manner, this is what it means.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can read up a little about what universal signals are, then you will at least understand what's coming in from the other side.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the most basic that uh deciphering universal's body language goes is what I'd explained at the very beginning.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody is, you know, discomforted with what you are doing, they will try and close down or go away or touch for comfort.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: It it can be a European, it can be a Japanese, it can be an Australian, it doesn't matter.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh see one of the challenges that I believe we have with body language is uh if, for example, I want to reduce my weight, I know I have to go to the gym.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to uh you know communicate well, probably I'll go to a speaking class.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I have to improve my body language observation skills, uh what are the practices that I should follow?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as an expert, what would you recommend?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh do you recommend a certain discipline that we should follow?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things that we should do?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can tell us how to do it, and of course, uh, you know, you do programs for uh understanding body language, which is independent, people can visit your website and uh you know know a lot about that.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if I were to say, hey, every day you know you walk 10,000 steps is a way of uh you know uh getting uh you know leaner, if I were to call it.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have to learn the uh you know the language of understanding body language, right?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so what are the uh practice and skills that you would recommend to me or to anybody in the audience?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first and the most important practice is to just listen.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: So many of us most of the times are eager to share our side of the story that uh we don't take a step back to try and listen to what the other person is trying to communicate.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, listening is in two ways.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: One is obviously the verbal communication, but it's also the non-verbal communication.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if you take a pledge that you know today when I'm in a meeting, I am with my daughter, or I am with my uh mother, or I'm with my colleague, with my boss, whoever it is.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, because all of us have got different uh environments in which we function.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, all you do is try and be there in the moment.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: Try and listen to what the other person is trying to communicate.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for example, you asked a question, at least wait for the person to respond, be it through their body language, be it through their words.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you are ready that okay, as soon as I ask this question, this is the next set of instructions that I want to give, then you're not really listening to what the other person is saying, right?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: So many organizations spend millions and millions of their you know money on just this aspect because they did not listen into what the person was saying.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: There were conflicts happening, but the leader was not observing, they were not listening to what's there.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: So coming back, you listen to what uh is happening.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel that you want to learn more about uh body language, you can start by looking at one part of the body at a time.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so for example, you think that okay, today let me just focus on face, is also a lot of things happening on the face, but let's just say that you know, broadly you would say, Let me just start by focusing on the face.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, face is something most of us inadvertently look at.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so while I'm looking at you, I don't want to just look at how many times you're nodding back at me.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be able to see how many times is that eyebrow moving, and when I'm seeing that eyebrow move, I will try and think what in that conversation made you react in that manner.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so little by little you try and see different parts of the body, you try and see when people are making those changes in their expressions, their gestures, the posture of the body, and you remember this one mantra that when people are going to be comfortable, they are trying to open up, and when they are not comfortable, they are trying to go and close down.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: What are they doing to open up?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: What are they doing to close down?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the things you start observing little by little, okay.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: And most important is to introspect how am I sitting in this meeting?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: Am I looking tensed, which is why the other person is looking tensed?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so once you start understanding yourself also well, that also helps.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, three things to do one is to just try and listen in to what's happening in that conversation without being in a hurry to talk or multitasking on your phone or your devices.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: Second one is to look at different parts of the body and look at how people are opening up, shutting down, and the third is to look at yourself a little more closely than you were previously.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: So once you do these things, I think you will naturally become good at observing.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I remember you know when we were talking earlier, uh uh you talked about a situation where you were invited uh for just observing people in interviews.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I just picked it up and I noted that down, it's very interesting because uh again, interview is a situation where there's a lot people say, there's a lot of verbal nonverbal cues which are so critical to pick up because everybody wants to make an impact.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the non-verbal cues in the body language is where at least I believe that if you are if you're able to pick that up, then you know what that person is actually made of.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what have we what have been your learnings?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because you've had extensive experience sitting through uh these kinds of situations.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is it that you have learned uh on these uh you know observations when you've been sitting there and what is important for people uh when they're doing these interviews?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is it uh that they should observe?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a huge investment organizations make in uh you know recruitment.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: And one wrong recruit uh typically you know the loss that happens because of the time that you spend is huge, right?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you mentioned that in our last chat that we had.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what are what are what have you learned and what do you think are a few things that uh is important for us to keep in mind when we walk in to these interviews?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think uh what we had started out this conversation with, which is that passion for you know uh liking what you like, that is what most people are looking for, be it a HR person or a seasoned interviewer.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: See, a lot of times interviews are very, very high stake, which means there will be some amount of anxiety whether you are uh you know starting out fresh or you're looking for your first job switch, or you're just going in for your annual review and the promotion interview, or you are a senior leader.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anywhere there will be a little amount of anxiety which will be there.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, while you know most of us try to read up a lot about how to look confident, how to walk in making the right first impression, most interviewers know that you know there will be some anxiety, they are okay with it.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: What they are actually looking for is that passion when you talk about what work you've done previously, or what is that work profile that is being offered to you.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: So at that time, if they don't see your eyes light up, or they don't see that voice projection, the modulation, the hand gestures becoming more expressive, you you know taking on a much more confident posture and talking about your work, that for them is a problem area because uh it's one thing to know that if I don't do well in this interview, I will be rejected, and this was a slim chance that I had, and so forth, but it's another altogether when you know you've committed a lot of your time and energy into your previous career, and you're not even able to show that with the right kind of energy, or you know, the questions are around this particular profile.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: How are you going to justify?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you're anxious while you're answering.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: But are you showing the right passion?
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are you showing the right energy?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you are, that's what the interviewer is looking for.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is something that you cannot make up.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: The only way you can be prepared for showing the right passion is to revisit in your mind uh, you know, what is your work experience been all about?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: How is that relevant for this particular profile that you are you know expecting to get hired for?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: What are the kind of responsibilities that will come with this work profile?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: Things like that.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: So once you are mentally prepared that okay, these are the things which I will want to talk about, and you go into that meeting, that energy and enthusiasm will come automatically.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know of a lot of cases where uh people have made exceptions when they see the right passion coming in, even if the work experience is much lesser than otherwise.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: See, it's not that you can justify work experience with just having that passion, but when you're talking about your subject, your experience, your background, at that time are you lighting up through your body language or not?
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is absolutely what your interviewer is looking at.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it has to come across no matter what happens, and if for any reason there is a discrepancy in the words and the body language, you get scrapped out no matter who you are or how much of work experience you're bringing in.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you cannot fake in an interview.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would like to say.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: That just go prepared in, just do your homework about yourself well, the organization well, and you should do it.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh one thing I wanted to ask you personally uh is uh this is an area where uh you know there are not too many professionals in India, right?
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, uh, how did you go about uh becoming somebody who's probably an expert in this area?
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the amount of effort and practice that you do uh because this is something that uh you know uh you don't find many professionals, right?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, what is that you do to ensure that you keep yourself updated regularly?
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh what what are the practices that you follow?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a very good question.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, our struggle is on even today.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, a lot of times uh people understand that you have to come across as passionate, confident, uh, understand your body language, but uh to get the other person across and to be able to tweak yourself depending on what you see, be it for any kind of situation, that is something we are still you know building awareness of in uh the country that we are in.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, that being said, that struggle is still on.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to how I keep myself uh you know updated with my skill set, uh, two things that we do obviously, you keep observing people because as times change, there are some things that keep changing, these are not major things, but for example, in today's era, right?
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if I have my uh earphones on and I'm walking, suddenly you'll see that somebody is you know coming at you and they are giving you that nice smile.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: You want to smile back, but then you realize that you know those earphones are in the ears, that means they are probably talking to somebody and responding to them.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, how these things are changing as uh we become more uh oriented towards technology and the other gadgets that have become a part of our life.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's something that I keep doing all the time.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: You have to keep uh observing in different hierarchies how you know body language is different and for what reasons, and the most important is how to apply body language.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: I might know 10 different ways in which how I can use my hand gestures to show energy, enthusiasm, passion, different things.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but in a given situation, can I apply what I know about body language?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: That is what is the most important.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, most of my time actually goes in this.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: For example, if I'm working with a team that's doing sales, is it a team that's doing pre-sales?
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a team that's doing the uh actual sales, the negotiation, the after sales?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: For them, how are each uh signal of body language relevant, important?
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because every professional wants to know how do I apply it, not you know what the subject is all about.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where most of my energy goes.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: That for you, how can I make the subject relevant, simple, and applicable?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's giving you what I do in brief.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: I read a lot about uh different uh business processes, like for example, if you just take up negotiations as a topic, there are so many different strategies that exist.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I keep you know researching that for certain strategies, say you take up item stacking, then in item stacking, you know what are the layers that are there in each layer?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: How do probably uh people or season negotiators how will they behave?
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: Those who are newbies, how will they behave?
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody is a vendor versus a supplier, how will things change?
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: How will that chemistry change?
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh say we are in the second step of the negotiation, then from the first step to the second step, what are the things that you know one can expect to change?
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: So these details are what I focus a lot on.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: To make the topic relevant for whichever working professional is looking to get their body language skills upgraded.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're pretty much coming to the uh end of our conversation, and I have a couple of uh you know rapid fire questions for you.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the first question that I have is uh what does success mean to you?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_02: Success, I think, is when you can sleep at the end of the day and feel that you know whatever it is that I want to achieve in my life, I'm working towards it because it's always going to be a journey, it's never the destination that matters.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: So as long as you are on the path for me, that's good enough.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: Great, fantastic answer.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my next question is uh what would be the advice that you would give to an 18-year-old in an university today?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: Advice, uh I would say talk to as many people as you can.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, it's one thing to be able to gain actual experience and learn how the world works, how people behave, how to go about doing a particular role.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if you just ask enough people around you, you will learn even through them.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: So any new person you meet, be curious, ask a lot of relevant questions, and you will gain a lot of experience without actually having that kind of physical experience yourself.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if uh I'm sure you would have got a lot of advice.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's one piece of advice that keeps coming back to you even today and which you remember a lot?
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: One piece of advice which somebody gave me.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this is interesting because uh I keep asking a lot of my friends for uh you know mentoring me on different uh pieces.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, one thing that I got is yes, not to run behind money.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh breaking into this business and actually turning it into something that is uh generating revenue for us has been a challenge.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the best advice that I have got, which I keep going back to, is this that if you do your work well, if you focus on you know delivering your best to the people you work with, money will just follow.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need to focus on because I am a business person, I don't need to just keep focusing on the numbers, the numbers will just come.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what my focus is on all the time to give my hundred percent to the person that I'm working with.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if uh you would recommend a couple of books for people to read, uh, which uh you pretty much think is almost like the Bible for what you do.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what are the one or two books that you would recommend, not just on body language, but what do you uh what has inspired you and what uh you believe are uh excellent books that people must read?
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so uh one obviously is the book that my teacher has written, which is What Everybody Is Saying by Joe Navarro.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is one book I talked about universal body language.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is one book which I am recommending because it talks about universal body language, so you don't need to be in any particular area or uh country to be able to find this book relevant.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: Another one is People Watching by Desmond Morris.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: I find him also an absolute fantastic author on this subject.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Emotions by Paul Ackman, again, a very good read.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as a book that's outside these, uh, I have enjoyed The Fountain Head by Ian Ren.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's a book I am again reading right now because it talks about something I have come to strongly uh identify it from a very young age, which is uh to have the right passion for what you like, what you believe in, and not worry about what the world around you thinks.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: So if that's something that you believe in, then I think you can read and rent.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a big um uh watcher of movies, I have learned and get gotten inspired from a lot of movies, so you know, apart from books, that's also something because being a visual person, like if I have to understand uh body language as a subject, then I have to watch a lot.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So movies is something I watch more than just reading.
• 1:10:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you were to invite uh uh, you know, three or four people for a dream dinner, uh who would they be and why?
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, dream dinner.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh one would obviously be our Prime Minister.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's been my dream to sit across and speak with him for since I can remember stepping into this world.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the kind of uh you know things and responsibilities that must be on an individual at that stage, it would be very interesting to know that.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Another one could be uh again to you know go back to my teacher.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've not interacted with him since a long time.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to go back and revisit how his you know take on the world has changed.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be the second one.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh third one, probably uh somebody from the army, like a sharpshooter from the army, because I've been working with the army a lot, and it's difficult to think how they must be balancing empathy with their work.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, to understand their mindset, it would be a great help to me.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So any sniper for that matter, and uh one more person, difficult.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I generally just if I'm curious, I just pick up the phone and talk to people.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So uh maybe somebody who's uh directed a good movie, so yeah, that's it.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So not any particular director that comes to my mind, but yeah, somebody who's directed a good movie.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So these are four people I would like to speak with.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic insights.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think the depth with which you went into understanding the body language as a professional skill that's important came up beautifully in this conversation.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a ton for sharing your learning, your knowledge with us.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been an absolute privilege talking to you.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot for your time.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: My honor, Swami.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think you asked some fantastic questions.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what keeps somebody who's answering motivated.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely my pleasure to be here, and I look forward to staying in touch with you.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to this episode.contramind.com.
• 1:13:13
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• 1:13:19
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• 1:13:37
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