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The Most Valuable Thing We Do · Made, Not Found

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing them such a disservice by trying to take away all their obstacles.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, my job is not to take away their obstacles.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: My job is to give them tools and resources to learn how to handle life's obstacles themselves.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I remember at first he was laughing, and then this thing set in and he said, no, no, no, and he started crying, and then he sat there spiritless for an hour.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems broken.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: It seemed broken, and it haunted me because I said, but am I going to parent the spirit out of him?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing else that I can think of that is that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's pour all of our energy and all of our love into being to send you off into the world, believe me.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's such a mind-blowing concept.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Made Not Found.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We believe the best lives aren't found.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're built.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: One real conversation at a time.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hiya.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we had date days with our boys today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh me, you, and my mom.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we have three kids and we've done dates actually it's evolved through the years, but right now it's nice, right?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because your mom takes one of them and then we each get time with one of them, which has been really nice cadence because then we can do it every other week instead of uh all the different ways that we've tried it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think the one-on-one time is is really important.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something that we're just getting back to.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually it's so true.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it had me thinking about parenting, and there's like a billion questions I feel like we could ask when it comes to parenting.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the most basic, maybe, like foundational, is like what does it mean to be a good parent?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big question.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big question.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine it's a million different ways to answer it, and you might have a different answer than I do.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even know.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't really thought through through the answer.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yet I think that the question is valuable.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's definitely an interesting question to think about and and talk about.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what what immediately comes to mind for me is that's probably evolved over time.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, what is what is a good parent?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: You mean in our experience uh being parents or over time like before us?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Both.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I if I think back, I think like historically for a man to be a good father meant he provided.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was the basic principle, at least the way I heard it.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Provided financially.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Provided financially.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there was like more than that, but it was that was the basic, like if you provided as a I mean, think about growing up in Youngstown, Ohio, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of steel mill workers and automotive workers, you go today, you uh you go to work all day, you work long hours, yeah, you provide for your family.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: You may or you're a good you're a good man.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: You may or may not go to the bar afterwards.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that different people will have different experiences, but for me, that was probably the definition of a good parent.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: A good father.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: A good father at that time growing up.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think as as a kid I thought about do I have good parents or not?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have parents and you don't know anything different.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what you know.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: You only know what you know as a kid.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Those are your only experiences.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: You have no frame of reference.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think every child probably, at least at the young age, thinks their parents are good parents because they're there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would probably say most think they have like the best parents, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like I grew up being like, I'm so lucky I have the best parents, and yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what was your comparison?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your friend's parents?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was just gonna say, at that point in time I probably had very little comparison, right?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Just that I knew I was loved and I had a good life, and that's and and they honestly you don't even know.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: At that age, you don't even know.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're not even working through it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that you have so much love for this person, and that's your safe place, and that's your everything.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's your whole world.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you think about a kid, your parents are your whole world.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that it was just like what it was, and so that's just was like the best thing because that was the only thing.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no frame, no other frame of reference.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the parents become your whole world and they become perfect in your eyes.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like the the I think of like when the when the kids see a teacher outside of school, they're amazed by the fact that the teacher has exists outside of school.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: They only know them as teacher, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And wherever they happen to see them outside of school, it's almost like mind-blowing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, how are you here?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I feel like that same experience happens with um parents when the kids realize they're not perfect.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh do you think that happens at the same age for everyone?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or different?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know that it happens at the same age for everyone.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I there are some thoughts I have about what happens at certain ages, but I think usually something happens that disrupts your image of your parents at at some age, and then it can kind of be earth-shattering, I think.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever did you ever have something like that happen to you?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I would not tie those two together.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think yes, there were things that I learned about my parents, and you realize like, oh, they're humans and they're not perfect, and which I think is good, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've actually tried to come from that place already with our kids being young.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: However, I think that for me, when I started to maybe question the way that they did things and maybe not see them was perfect, was when I started to become more myself, which would be maybe I mean I was kind of a late bloomer, so like my later part of my high school years and into college, where then I started to like want to experience life on my own terms, and it wasn't always the way that they wanted me to see or do life.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's when I think I maybe started to think that they weren't perfect and that their way wasn't the only way.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I probably thought mine was the best way at that point, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: You thought yours was the only way.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So but did that make them any less good parents?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Good parents, no.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect, imperfect, yes.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I guess coming back to the question of like what are good parents, uh uh at for young kids, I don't know I I don't know that there's a realization of any bad parents.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there is at some moment.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm sure if there's physical abuse or other things involved, but any kind of abuse.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but maybe not.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's still your parents, and that's a weird um thing.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think like uh when my mom was in her addiction, I was I was pretty young.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think my mom was a bad parent.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well you were like 12 and up though, right?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there were you know, they were yeah, but there were things happening before that where um but I never thought my mom was a bad parent.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I always thought I just didn't understand I actually internalized it more.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't understand and probably thought like which which isn't a rational thought, but like what am I doing?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: What's what am I doing or what can I do different rather than thinking she's a bad parent.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think children have a tendency to think their parents are good.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know until when.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Until I don't know, but that's a really interesting point.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's very true.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I would do the same thing when I was a kid.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I felt like my parents it was always about like what I did wrong or I didn't earn something and I let them down.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't at me thinking like I feel like as a child you don't even have that kind of power or think you have that kind of power.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they have all the power and they are they're right because they're the adult, and then whatever it was that wasn't working out for me must be my fault.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that changed I mean, I think that changed for me going through puberty and like like figuring out how I wanted to live my life, and like you grow up and you see other people and friends and you go to their families and you see that it's different, and you go to college and you're like, oh my gosh, like it's so different, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like your bubble that you grew up in, and so I think it all uh is eye-opening, and when you travel, and you know, there's just so many things, and then you're like, wow, there's so many different ways to live, and it's not just this one way that I was raised, and I get to choose how I want to live, parents, whatever.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the experience of other parents is a really interesting one because I think um for me I remember some families seemed amazing and perfect, and I also found out later they weren't perfect either.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um especially dads were like really uh like like we have a friend who told me that his dad was his best friend um and his dad had passed away, and to me that was always amazing but baffling.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm friends and and have respect for, love my dad and my stepdad, but I wouldn't say we're best friends, and um and and I also think in college we met people's parents who we got along with, some who we got along with too good, like they would come out to the bars with us, which yeah seemed cool and then maybe wasn't.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and so you definitely get a perspective of what uh parenting can be, which is also interesting to think about when you go into being a parent.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, my experience was different than yours.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when my brother was born, I was 12, when my sister was born, I was 14.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I lived with my brother, and and then my mom you know started struggling with addiction, and so I feel like I became not a big brother, but a a de facto dad.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was the man of the house, they got divorced, and so I felt like I kind of had this almost parenting experience, like a maybe an uncle experience, and I had a lot of little kids around, and our family's really big, a lot of little kids, and so I feel like when we had our first child, I was more comfortable with maybe not being a dad, uh, but being around kids than you were.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would say being around babies.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was not around babies a lot, so I think that I was somewhat overwhelmed when we had, yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when our oldest was a baby, it was very overwhelming to me.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that they needed me 24 hours a day, whereas that's immediately different from for a dad, you know?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I 100% agree with that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean I remember our boys were small, and I remember like having a conversation with you of like, what are we trying to do here?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the goal of parenting?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like I I think that it was because I was struggling with something, and I don't remember exactly what I was struggling with.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe maybe I disciplined them and I felt bad or something about it.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember coming to the conclusion, like the goal is to raise self-sufficient, really good human beings who know that they are loved and who could do like good in the world.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's kind of what we landed on.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that conversation?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the goal we said the goal of raising our children was to raise them to be self-sufficient enough to leave us.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Which is ultimately a really hard project to put everything you have and care more about them than anything else in the world that you've ever cared about besides our relationship or each other and God.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: But to pour everything into them and then and then success looks like them leaving you.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, which is such a weird I mean, there's nothing else that I can think of that is that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's pour all of our energy and all of our love into you, this being to send you off into the world to leave me.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's such a mind-blowing concept.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Except for it's not complete, because to leave you means to go out into the world, but it doesn't mean to leave you.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think you I remember you used to have this fear because we have all boys that they would never call you.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And once they were gone, they were gone and you were losing them.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh the definition of success will be that they go out on their own, they're successful and productive in life, yeah, and we remain a big part of their life.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I 100% agree.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you use the word successful, which is so interesting, because when you're talking about being a good parent, like what what does success even mean?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And does that define your parenting if they are let's say one of our kids is a like a really great human being and decides to live in a trailer or something, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and he's really happy, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So is that success, one, and secondly, if you feel like that's not success, do you tie that to your parenting, or actually either way, is their success based on your ability to parent?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the definition of success for our children for me is that they are good people and they are um happy, meaning passionate about what they do.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: They contribute something to this world.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we've had the conversation about what do we do with money and what's the ultimate, you know, goal in life to be able to do for them.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not to hand them a bag of of money if we're able to, right, or or when when we die.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's to support them in what they find passionate.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always say, like, I think one of the most amazing things would be if one of our children just has this passion to teach children and wants to do it, um, and teachers don't make great money, and we can like support that in in a way where they can do what they're really passionate about.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, that's the definition of success, and I'm very cautious about that because you know, I've had a level of success that I think has put burden on some loved ones at times by the feel of comparison or living up to something that they feel I've established as the bar, and I don't want our boys to feel that pressure.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't either, yeah.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not my definition of success.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I only brought it up because I mean that's not my definition of success is not financial gains either, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like if that's what they want and that's what they go after, like amazing.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we both agree that like the passion and the drive to go do something that you care about is important.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: The financial part of it is not.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's interesting because I I think that it's really interesting as a parent to like what you take on and make your responsibility.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it brings up thoughts of like when our kids were really little, and like the one that I think of is like I was like, we we hardly ever fly business class, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're almost always in economy, unless you get upgraded for free, which is amazing.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I remember one time we were flying business, and I was like, we can't bring a baby into business class.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if they cry and they scream and they're and and you were like, Yeah, we can.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you mean?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're paying for it or whatever, and and it is what it is.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, like their misbehavior was a direct reflection on my parenting.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So then I felt like a bad parent.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something I've struggled with because it's something I think that my parents struggled with of your if your children are not behaving a certain way, then you're not doing your job as a parent, and other people are judging around you.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that some people may carry that on until they're adults, and if they're not successful adults, then then you didn't do your job as a parent, which is a heavy load to carry.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point is it your responsibility, is it not your responsibility?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's an unrealistic load to carry.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think first of all, kids crying or um being antsy on an airplane is not misbehaving, it's being kids.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's been a time where I wouldn't have said that, and I think that's come over time, that realization.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: But so I I don't think that's a reflection of bad parenting.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if they're doing something that is out of line, in in my opinion, that would be smacking the seat in front of them or kicking the seat, yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that, and the parents not correcting them, well then it does reflect on the parent.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I it's hard to define, but I think it it's worth the thought of trying to define so that you don't carry the burden.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, they will be their own person.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's I think that's one of the things that is really empowering is when our children were born, we pretty early had the view that they are not our children, they're entrusted to us to raise.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't shape them.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: They are who they are when they are born.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say we don't shape them.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: We don't I was gonna We don't make them who they are, they are who they are when they're born.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: We get to shape them and provide guardrails and instruction and and model behaviors that we hope that they adopt.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like two of the boys today said, uh, you should be a ment did they say mentor?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mentor.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you should be a mentor.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said I am a mentor to you guys, which was great that they said that about me, but uh but I think that's the role we really play, like a really loving mentor.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And in my in my weird voodoo way that I see the whole world, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we chose them as our children, and they chose us as the parents.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we learn just as much from them as as they learn from us.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this role of parenting is is such a journey, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like so many, so many different things.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're on their own journey.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, to your point, like we're along our own journey with them, and you hope.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it's so interesting anyway.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you raise these kids in the same house.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And granted, we're not the same people that we were when they were first born, but we raise them fairly similar.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's we're not trying to make everything exactly the same because it's not realistic, and there's but they're so different, you know, and so there's just so many parts of that that like that's not in our control.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, part of that is they are who they are when they're born.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: They each had an individual personality that was very different from each other, that was apparent when they were infants.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Little, yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second is we can even if we did all the exact same things, it can't be the same because there's now another person.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So when our oldest was born, there were three.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: When our middle was born, there were four.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: When the youngest was one, there were five, there are other people there.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It just can't be the same as much as we think we want it to be the same.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think um it's really po empowering and important to see them as, as you said, as their own people from an early age, because then you can respect instead of expect.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can respect whatever they like.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, for me, one of the things has been find out something that they like and like it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So or at least spend time doing it with them.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean You don't have to force like it.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but f I I I would think as a parent, if you find something they like and like it, you're gonna have a better relationship, you're gonna be able to nurture them.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it may not be that you actually love it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for our oldest son, he loves hunting.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had never hunted before, but I go hunting anytime he asks me to.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's interesting to uh perceive their differences because I don't know if they always know what they like.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Our middle son's like this.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we're playing a different role where we're trying to help him try different things and find what he likes as opposed to just liking what he likes like our oldest son.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, really, it's like offering experiences, right?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is part of what we get to do as parents is be there as they experience the world and I don't know, have conversations around it, you know?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's interesting because I thought you were gonna say something about like doing things right, and I was like, that's alone such an interesting concept, because I think that I was raised in a house where like my dad would still say there's like a right way and a wrong way to do things, and there's a right way to raise kids and a wrong way to raise kids.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And from where I am 14 years in, I don't agree with that.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that like I think for so many years I was trying to make things so perfect for our kids.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to take all their obstacles away, and I was trying to make sure that I had every snack, I had everything, I had extra clothes, I had all the things.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just in case anything went wrong, I was prepared for them and I was gonna, you know, save the day.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think after doing like a conscious discipline class that I I was required to do to put Ashton and in our youngest son in a uh school, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing them such a disservice by trying to take away all their obstacles.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like my job is not to take away their obstacles, my job is to give them tools and resources to learn how to handle life's obstacles themselves.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I think one of the things that I remember that you did during that, I would watch the conscious parenting things, but not really pay that much attention.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're scrolling while you're watching.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I I picked up on what you were doing, and a lot of it was giving them language to use, which uh people always found so fascinating when uh one of our children might say, Would you be willing to do this?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or what what are other examples of the language that they used?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I actually forget, but I remember one time your mom got offended because the way I said something.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I remember exactly what it was.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: We were leaving and the boys, one of them was was not happy, and we were Leaving them with grandma.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you said, Do you feel safe?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think my mom reacted, uh held it in, but you could tell she reacted.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: It triggered her.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think you l had a conversation with her later, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't remember if it was like later that day or like the next day or something, but I did, and I understood why, like why she would have that reaction.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I completely understand.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it was essentially like the like the language that I was learning to to use to help them to feel safe and to realize that there was there was no reason not to feel safe.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it was anyway, yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: The learning was that uh most of the time when children are lashing out or having a hard time, it's because they don't feel safe.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: It might not be rational, but there's some level of offering unmet need is more like it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because it wasn't like they felt unsafe in your mom's presence in a way that they were in danger.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was not that at all.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was something that they were unable to communicate that they were reacting to, and I was trying to help them find words to give that feeling.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it and it might have you could, as they got older, substitute the word safe for comfortable or familiar or whatever it may be, because it was wasn't about being physically safe.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh about you're secure, you're you're okay that I'm leaving.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've got this, is what the end of the goal it really is.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that to put it back into your hands, like you're you've got this.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it's funny because all of that language that I learned, which was so helpful by the way.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I would I wish I would have had the resources to do conscious discipline parenting education way earlier than I did.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: But when I did, I was like, oh, this is like makes so much sense.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like so funny because I could see from an outsider's perspective, like, what in the hell are you doing?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like do you feel safe?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And are you willing to take your plate in?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, my dad would be like, take the plate in, period, you know.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you think about like what we kind of you said earlier of how much parenting has changed, like of course my dad's gonna be like, what are you talking about?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was never even like in the realm of parenting back then.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was very much like you're do what I say, and that's what's expected of you.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But in fairness to him, I think even still today, there are different roles that mothers and fathers play.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's really apparent that a two-parent household is really valuable because of the fact that we play different roles.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so while you speak to them that way, and I do sometimes, um, I also am strict about things.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you said, Are you willing to take the plate in, and they say no, I say, You're taking the damn plate in.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh maybe I have to work a little bit on that, but I do think there's a boundary that I set as the dad of the house that is respected, especially by little boys, yeah, maybe a little bit more, and and because you shouldn't have to play that role.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: You play a more nurturing role as a mother.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which actually I have to correct, because it's not the question was never supposed to be in consciousness discipline, will you take the plate in?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's will you will you take the plate in or the silverware in?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what it is supposed to be.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's misleading because that's not actually.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it gives them a choice, but they're still gonna do something.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting them to do whatever your uh goal is in a way that they still feel like they have a choice, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so moving on to the dad part, I think, is so interesting because I know like I I mean, it wasn't that long ago, maybe in the last six months where I came to you and I was like, I need your support.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am feeling very unlistened to, and it's interesting now because you know our oldest is taller than me.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's Me too.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have littles, it's very much different.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can be like a physical game where I can physically pick you up and I can put you where I want to.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you tell me you're not getting in the car, but you're getting in the car.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I will just force you to get in the car.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, though, you didn't, because when we were struggling with uh our oldest going to school, yeah, uh, you were not physically picking him up and take him there, and you you had a hard time with that idea, and so you you really and so did I because of your direction, but really spent a lot of time trying to make him feel safe and make him feel heard.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, sometimes two hours at drop-off, sometimes we'd still end up home.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know that you ever, even though you could have physically did that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm literally thinking when they're toddlers, when they're toddlers and they're beyond logic and they're like telling you they're not doing something, and you're literally putting them in their car seat, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our oldest was nine when you're talking about that scenario, and I did exactly that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Spent hours and hours talking through it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very true.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, for years I was really not very firm in my tone, and so I had a really hard time like stepping up into this role of like I'm gonna parent from a place of like I am the mother, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so you used to always point that out.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've gotten way better at that.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there's still just a level where the kids will push back and not listen to me in the same way that they will 100% listen to you.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's my fault.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just the way it is.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think you're a little less consistent, which um could can be confusing, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: We tell the boys you have to be clear if you say no or if you say stop, that means stop.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can't say it and laugh and then expect somebody to understand it.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have a little bit of that, I think, with parenting, but I also think maybe it's the fact that it's mom and they're boys, young men in this case, and they will push the boundaries more with you than they will with me.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things we had to work on, I had to work on a lot, was not only setting the boundary, but making the the punishment fit the crime, as you said, because I for a time would threaten you're grounded for the weekend because they didn't put the dish in the dishwasher or something.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and then I would struggle with myself saying, Well, I said it, now I have to be consistent with it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to backtrack, and so I had to learn to take a pause, think about what the appropriate consequence was before I issued it, and then let them either listen or suffer the consequence.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I still struggle with it somewhat because as you know, like I see the world so gray.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're so good at seeing like things are black and white, and I just don't see it like that.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So so many times I'll be in a scenario and I'm like talking to the boys through something, but I'm like, I completely understand their side of it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I get in this like messy in-between where I'm like, I don't even like I just don't even know because I can't set a set a burn firm boundary or whatever, because to me it's not even clear.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I see both sides of it so much, and I just I feel where they're coming from to the point that it just messies the waters, and I'm like, and every situation's different.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And like you make a million decisions as a mother day, and at the end, I'm just like, I don't even know.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't think it's wrong.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes that works well, and you hear them, and you may change the decision, and they feel heard, and that works and good.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes they push the boundary and they know that you're willing to listen and it goes too far, and then that's usually where you're calling me in to set a boundary for them.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and sometimes I struggled with that because I felt like I was always the bad guy.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was always the one that had to come in, and it was almost like when when I was younger, it's like, wait till your dad gets home, you know, maybe for you.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and it felt a little bit like that, but I was recently reading about how the role of a dad and mom change as the kids get older.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we're now at the stage where we have a 14-year-old and a 12-year-old, so a teen and a and a very close preteen, and it talked about how men need to step up and be involved more and moms need to back off.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you said that to me.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and honestly, I wasn't offended by it.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually like, this makes sense because I don't mean to, but half half the time when we are disagreeing, I'm disagreeing with some about something with our oldest son, it then becomes like I'm passionate about it, and it comes off like I'm nagging him, and he's like, You only want me to do it your way.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes this this like downward spiral of like just messy feelings, and it feels bad for me, it feels bad for him, and like I don't even know where to go for go with it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And where I feel like you can come in with a masculine presence and have a conversation with him almost like he's a man, in a way that just feels different and resonates differently with him.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like I don't want that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I'm, I want to back off nagging.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we can have conversations and it doesn't turn to that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when it spirals to that, I'm like, I just need to back out of it and allow you to handle it from a different way.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's also him.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Our oldest has always been that way.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when he was very young, I don't know, maybe four or five, and I told him to do something, and he said, You're trying to control me, which was hysterical.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know where it came from.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then our middle son is the opposite, where he'll just defer.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever you tell him, fine.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and kind of.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's the strong personality, too, and he might get angry and he might be huffy about it, and he might talk back.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: So not always.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But when he knows okay, fair enough, not always, but when there are times where he says, fine, and then sometimes I find that as I don't want him to just do what he's told without thought behind it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really hard because I think we've talked about this before.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: The the idea is the hardest things to parent are gonna make them the most successful adults.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember reading a book called Raising Your Spirited Child or something like that when our oldest was a like little, like a toddler.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I it's always been a question of how do you raise them to be good people who do good things and are, you know, and and not break them, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to break them.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want them to be submissively following us and doing what we said to do because we said to do it because we're the parents when in all reality I want you to question all authority.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want you to question everything.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to have Respectfully.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Respectfully.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually that's a good point because it that's 100% where the difference is, right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can, I feel like our kids have a lot of say in our house.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: They have a lot, we hear them out, we allow them to speak their minds and have opinions.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Respectfully is the key.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when that is not done that way, then that opportunity is closed off of them.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember my version of not wanting to break their spirit was when our oldest was a baby.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was, I don't know, he maybe was two.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I say maybe two.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he was walking around naked and he did something.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: He hit me in the face, or whatever he did, and I told him not to do it again, or he was gonna get a lick in.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in retrospect, he probably didn't even know what a licken was.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Totally did not.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he hit me in the face right right again, and right after I said it.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I took his little butt and smacked it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not that hard, but it's enough to sting.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember at first he was laughing, and then the sting set in, and he said, No, no, no, and he started crying.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then he sat there spiritless for an hour, and it it like he seems broken.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: He seemed broken, and it haunted me because I said, Oh my god, am I gonna beat not literally, but am I going to parent the spirit out of him?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so never smacked their butt or done anything like that again.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is interesting because I think that we have protected that more than we protect our position as parents.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like we want them to continue to be who they are, not who we want them to be.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and at the expense maybe of what may seem like disrespect to my parents' generation, we will allow them to have have say in in a lot of things.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, they may not want to go somewhere, and if if there's an option for them not to go, whether it's stay at home if they're old enough or go somewhere else, we'll give them the option.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be to our parents a foreign concept.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna do what I say when I say.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and a lot of times that's out of inconvenience.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not easier for us.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually harder for us.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: This way of parenting in general is so much harder.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I think of when they went to a Waldorf school in in California, and that was a hard parenting decision as well.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not because of the school.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: The school was beautiful and the experience for the kids was amazing.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we were in a situation where other parents with kids their age would talk about their reading at this age or they're doing this, they're so good at math, or whatever it may be.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Waldorf was purposely delayed and focused on the person as a person.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like foundational skills, that there's a whole science behind, but so it's not easy because you you're either being judged or feel like you're being judged.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yet we believe that was the best for the children, and I and I still believe that to this day, it wasn't the easy road though.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting anyway, because I think you know, that's easy to make parenting decisions based on how you feel like you're being judged.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have I have been in situations where my parents are there and the boys are doing something, and I a part of me will react.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I might yell, I might do something that I would not do if I was not in the presence of my parents, and I know that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been able to later then talk to the boys and explain, like, I'm sorry, you know, I was triggered and it had nothing to do with you.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Your your behavior was still probably unacceptable, and yet the way that I reacted was equally uh unacceptable, and it wasn't even be about you, it was about the perceived judgment I felt in that situation.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean that touches on another point, which I think is apologizing to the children, which we have both done a lot, and I think it's I think it's really been impactful because one, they understand we're not perfect and we make mistakes too.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Two, we model how to handle making mistakes, and I feel like it's really made them more willing to face up to their own mistakes, just admit them, apologize, and and move on.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Not always, they're still children, but yeah, um it it feels like that's more common than maybe in in others.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think as a former perfectionist or someone who wanted to really try to like get things right, what I have learned so much is that like that is not the goal because that's so damaging.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't even want to try to be perfect because I'm expecting my children to try to be perfect, which is just setting everyone up for failure, right?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so instead, I think I've given myself so much more leeway to say, I'm going to mess up, I don't even know how many times a day.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like every day I do something as a parent that I'm not really that proud of.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then every day I also have a moment where I'm like, okay, I got that one.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I got that one right, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the goal is just to be mindful of of what we're doing.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like every time we have, we have conversations about parenting every day, maybe I don't know, off very, very often.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what I always go back to is the fact that we're having the conversation and and working on it and being intentional with it is the part that we're getting right.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: The million decisions during the day, we're still gonna get, I don't know what percentage, but a big chunk of those wrong.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I remember telling somebody recently, like I never thought the thing that I would wake up in the middle of the night and obsess over it was parenting.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Did I make this decision right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Did I do that wrong?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: How's this gonna affect them in the future?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no way for us to know.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the acceptance of we're not gonna be perfect and setting the expectation with them, we're not gonna be perfect.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we will apologize along the way and recognize and we'll have conversations, I think is is really valuable.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing I think that's valuable that we started with is you know, we did date days today.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think an another version of that is we do one-on-one trips with a specific cadence.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and the reason I think it's important is just what we have seen.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I'll say what I've seen is man, you get a different version of that child when you are one-on-one.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I remember reading this book called Family Board Meetings, and it was when we lived in California, so everybody surfed.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was meant to be surfboard meetings where they would go out on the surfboard, and it talked about how if you do something physical with your child one-on-one, no phones, no technology or distractions, but something physical, especially with boys, that gets some of the energy out, and then they went and had a meal, and then they would actually talk, yeah, versus trying to just force them to sit down and talk with you.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we've gone in waves of being really good with the one-on-one dates and really bad.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think recently our children pointed out that we were not doing dates and we needed to get back to it.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they so appreciate it, and I so appreciate it because I think that in the mess of everyday life, there's so many logistics to parenting, there's so many things that like that you have to get done, and so-and-so needs this, and you need this, and you're trying to get dinner on the table, and homework needs done, and sports, and and there's so many just missed opportunities for connection throughout the day.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so these scheduled dates that are one-on-one that are just really to connect are the probably the most valuable thing that we do as parents.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that was that was I think your idea you started and and these milestone trips or events that we essentially created, that you essentially created also, have been uh just rights of passage and things that the kids like talk about, and I know that is so meaningful to them and will create so many memories.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it started with what we had talked about at the beginning, which was how do we parent them the same.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And since there is no way to do that, it started with we did one thing with a son, the oldest, and then how do we make that fair?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's make that a ritual at eight, you get to skip at eight, okay, yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or eight, you go to a concert or whatever.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever it is, right?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: At six, you get to sip school, at eight, you get to go to a concert, at uh ten, you get to go to New York City with dad.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: At eleven, they go on a trip with mom.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the funny thing is we've now set up some that are in the future, even for our oldest.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And recently, I don't know if he told you this, but he was talking about when I get to pick my trip.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's cool.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's really exciting because there's also something to be excited for and plan, and he gets to own, yeah, you know, as as part of that, and that's actually a family thing.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, I guess you know, the question that we started with is what makes a good parent?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and as always, this isn't the answer, this isn't the end, but it's a great conversation.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one that we would encourage other people to have, a question that we would encourage them to talk about.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one that I would love to have with our children at the dinner table because I think it would be so interesting to hear what they would say, what makes a good parent.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, thanks so much.