Latest / The Red Banner Race Report / Dean Reynolds, Spring Arbor University

Transcript

Dean Reynolds, Spring Arbor University · The Red Banner Race Report

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to the Red Banner Race Report Podcast, where we feature the amazing achievements and accomplishments of NAIA cross-country and track and field athletes.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Today we'll be chatting with Spring Harbor University's Dean Runnell, one of the Cougar's most accomplished runners in school history, winning a national championship outdoors in the 40x800 relay in 2023, which is arguably one of the most epic races to the line in league history.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: He was a multi-time crossroads league champion in a variety of events from the 4x4 to the 4x8 to 1500, and he was the 2024 League Cross Country Runner Up.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: Part of many nationally top-ranked relays all throughout his years as a collegiate runner, he holds school records in the 4x8 indoors and outdoors, the DMR, and he has top five school performances in the 800,000 mile 4x4 relay, and is even in the top 10 in the 3K, showing his incredible versatility and range.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Dean ends his career as an eight-time NAIA track All-American in the 800,000, 1500 DMR and 4x8.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: Before Dean ever arrived at SAU, he had a fantastic high school career for Hanover Horton High School, finishing fifth at Michigan's D3 Cross Country State Meet, winning all but one meet his senior year prior to state.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: He was also an 800-meter state champion on the track in 155.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: Despite all of his success, Dean will be the first one to tell you that his faith comes first.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: When a serious medical incident at the national meet prevented him from racing as one of the top-ranked athletes, he had to step back and take stock of what matters and how to deal with disappointment and frustration.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: And what lessons he believed God was teaching him in those moments.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: He's also had to navigate the end of his collegiate career and the grieving process that that can entail, which is something many athletes are not prepared for.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: I've had the privilege of knowing Dean personally, as he was one of my son's teammates and a major factor in my son deciding to attend Spring Harbor.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: Dean has a lot of great wisdom to share.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: His perspective on life, his growth as both a person and an athlete, and his dedication to his physical, spiritual, and mental health will hopefully inspire you to also live with purpose and integrity.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Red Banner Race Report podcast, Dean Reynolds.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, this is Dean.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you are now recently retired.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if we should say retired.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: Your collegiate career has come to an end.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: You've had, you know, an amazing list of accomplishments, lots of success across multiple distances from, you know, running sub-150 and the 800 to great times in cross-country.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, out of all of the things that you have done, what do you think kind of stands out to you?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like which race, which performance, which moment in your career would be on your top list of favorite memories and moments from your uh your running experiences?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I sat with this and I just thought that I have to keep going back to the national championship and the four by eight.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: That was such an awesome experience.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then the following day to come back and I think it was third in the 1500.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wasn't expecting to have a place in the 1500, but um because we put so much emphasis on the the four by eight.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that was just kind of a cherry on top kind of a moment.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say that the four by eight was that was just such a special moment.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um that there's so much learning there, yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that race.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: So if anyone has not seen this race, I would highly encourage you to look it up on YouTube.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_04: I'll actually link it in the show notes when I um publish the podcast because before I knew you personally, I watched that race because as a Spring Arbor alum myself, that was big news, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: That was a big deal to win a national relay championship.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's an amazing photo of you and your opponent from Indiana Wesleyan at the line.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: And it is just, I mean, millimeters that separated you in the win.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_04: And it is just one of those racing moments that for sure will live in many people's memories for quite some time.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's let's dive back a little bit.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: So you you had this amazing moment, kind of the pinnacle of your career winning this this relay title.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: But where did it all begin for you as a runner?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, how did you first get into running?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: When did you begin?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: When did you realize this is something I like doing and I'm good at?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I first started running.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was in seventh grade.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was like a dual sport middle schooler athlete, and I had some success with running.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I started to win things in seventh grade.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um wasn't too big or anything, but I think they did have a state meet or some sort of that matter.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever division it was, I ended up winning that for middle school state meet in the 800, and I was like, huh.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think I could drop soccer and then pursue running some more.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: That later kind of started my running career in seventh grade.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: But in eighth grade I did not run because I had so much pressure uh from the shoes that I basically made in seventh grade.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I I was also going through puberty at that time, so I think it was just so I think there was like th those two things going against me.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I did not run at all.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And there were a lot of people were maybe upset that of like the lost potential.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um my coach, my mom, they really wanted me to run, and then I just I went back to it.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um ninth grade through tenth grade I competed and then in college as well.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it started in seventh grade.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Now, had anyone in your family been a runner, or were you kind of the first one to blaze that trail, so to speak?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my dad ran, but he would tell you he wasn't like anything special.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he probably could pop a good 200 or something, but he never did like 800.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe the most he did was like 400 or something.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then my mom did volleyball.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you have left quite a legacy at Spring Arbor.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, your four by eight hundred relay, your distance medley relay, those were big components of your time at SAU with a variety of different teammates across your years there.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: You have school records in both that, you know, I'm gonna guess will stand for years to come.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: So, what does it mean to you to see your name on the record board and achieve those things with your teammates over the years and um, you know, have the the Reynolds name stamped in the record books at Spring Arbor.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a pretty cool feeling.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a good accomplishment, I guess.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um let's see.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say it's just I feel very proud to have done that shared experience with them multiple times over the years, and that creates like intense bonds and friendships.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just met with someone from the 4x8 relay team this weekend, two of them, and we still are like very close.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um not saying you need to have a national championship to have that, but there is something special there.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's a shared experience, and I just feel very blessed.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think to sum it all up, I think it is I feel very blessed.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you come out of the Crossroads League, which has consistently been one of the most competitive conferences in the NAIA and continues to grow.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: And lining up week after week with that level of competition is somewhat different than other conferences where perhaps it's not so highly competitive.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: If we look at some of the national championships that were won, a lot of those individuals or teams come out of that leak.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_04: So, what do you think it was like for you, either mentally or physically, lining up against that level of competition for your conference championship before you even went to the national meet?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think starting out my freshman year was very intimidating because I didn't know I didn't have any frame of reference.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even know what the NAI was, I didn't know there was a difference between NCAA, I didn't really know what the competition was like, I didn't know what the divisions were.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So and I'm not really someone who kind of keeps tabs on everybody.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe the real big major stuff.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it was really just kind of thrown in the deep end, if you will.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember my freshman year I raced against um a guy at Grace, and he just had very like similar um accomplishments, and he was kind of decorated, and I was just this freshman racing against him, and I think I ended up beating him in the DMR or something at the conference, and I think that was kind of the welcome to the stage kind of moment.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I still didn't really understand what I was like kind of getting into.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there was a lot of intimidation and um with hindsight I would say I'm very glad that I had all that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's only so so big you can get until you're at the top, and I think that kind of became maybe my sophomore year through senior year, where when you're at the top you just kind of go back and forth now and you just kind of know how it works.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would say there was like stages of like my freshman through sophomore year was more intimidating, and then sophomore year to senior year was more comfortable.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but again I think I was also very blessed to be in that conference because um I was pushed a lot.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I was in a different conference, I uh maybe would not have been pushed as hard.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I highly recommend going to a school that is in that conference.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they seem to consistently be uh super competitive all the time.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure if you know this, but several people outside of Spring Arbor and in the Crossroads League have spoken very highly of you as well.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: And how much respect they have for you as an athlete and a competitor and just your character.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I thought that I'd mention that because I think that that is as as important as being fast.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think if you have the gift of being athletically talented, um that's one thing.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And people people already see that, but you can also be a kind person, you can act like Jesus, you can go out of your way to pray for them or listen to them or all the above.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that maybe speaks even deeper.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that's kind of the journey that God is um kind of had me walk through what that looks like being a steward of the sport that you're in and the levels of um influence that you have.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um how am I stewarding that well?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe there were times that I didn't do it right, and maybe there were times that I I did listen to the Holy Spirit, but I think I'm still learning too.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I would say we all are.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: That's part of the journey, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: Speaking of your journey, you chose to red shirt a year so that you could run um that fifth year.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: So in between you had a little bit of, I guess we could call it a gap year.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: So if we are looking at um, you know, the NCAA, now that's no longer an option.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: You you just get five years of full competition.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: The NAI, you know, it remains to be seen if they will choose to adopt that or if they will stick to the model of four years with red shirts allowed.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but speak to you know what challenges or advantages you felt that that red shirt year gave you, you know, what was hard, what what helped, um, versus running those four straight years of eligibility.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's also worth mentioning that you were married during that time of your last year, and that probably you know plays a role in your running and your lifestyle and all those things.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: So just talk about how you felt that went for you.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's been through college, done a s has done a sport, and has had a great time will know that the four years just is like just a snap of the fingers and it goes by really quick.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I wanted uh just a little bit more spectacular community that you will never get anywhere else until you realize you're not a part of the community anymore.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh and um I just wanted I just wanted another year to be with those people and to share those bonds and those laughs and those wins and loses and Bible studies and runs and you always take it for granted.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I just wanted another year to do that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think I also had more goals.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I wanted to um I think I had a goal.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to take as many relays to nationals as uh we possibly could.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe the the journey a little bit from freshman dean to senior dean was if you were to look at it from that it was it started out like the most selfish to the least selfish and how can can we share this experience and maybe not so much um how I used to be like how much can I get for myself?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I also like competed in individual events my um senior year too, so I think there was that like I want to accomplish these things and I think when you do an individual event like it's okay to have those feelings.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say my I did five years, so it was interesting that see that fifth year because I was married and I yeah, I would say I didn't feel as related to.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think as I got older I didn't feel as related to with the freshman.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I also wasn't studying my undergrad, so I wasn't on campus as much.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was married.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I had those three things like going against me that I didn't have as relatable uh things to be related to.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that kind of felt sad in some ways.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I kind of realized like, okay, when are you gonna like retire or you got a sixth year coming up?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like kind of jokes.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: When are you gonna go get a real job?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, those things.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I just had a passion for running.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just I loved being there, I loved competing, I loved I kinda found through being a team captain that I I really love like mentorship and discipleship and um having a healthy living, a healthy view of God.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I kinda found that passion.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would also say my redshirt year was it just kinda came about that I was also studying uh my my bachelor's in theology.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of realized I can't really do anything with theology.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe someone would say, Well, why didn't you change your major or something?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I just had a passion for theology.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had a passion for learning and studying God's word.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and someone might say, like, well, why aren't you going to like seminary or to continue on that?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just don't I just don't feel the calling to do that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I guess the insurance, if you will, to go into the world was through the MBA that I was wanting to get.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um because that was really the only avenue I could maybe market myself.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um probably not get a job at a business firm with a theology degree.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I needed a a different degree.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there was that motivation as well to get an MBA.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was ups and downs for sure.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you think you want to kind of look at your running career from a bird's eye view, starting from freshman year to senior year or super senior year is kind of a slow incremental rise.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And mine was kind of a a good rise all the way up to sophomore year.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it dropped down a little bit and then rose up again and dropped down.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And during that sophomore year, I did I so interesting.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You I had this crazy experience at National's um winning and then like hey, I'm on a redshirt here, and so you you say yes to that.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it I had this crazy perspective.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um less perspective, I think, but crazy and super hard in the moment.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Going from the top to the bottom.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wasn't competing, I was watching people do my sport, and um, that was really hard for me in the moment.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, hey, can you go get Jimmy Johns or something?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, sure.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't I didn't want to go get Jimmy Johns, but I did.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so like it it made me a better person, it made me a better leader doing those things, just being a servant for the team and watching, and um but yeah, that was hard.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard going from the top to the bottom and then kind of working your bit way back up to the to the top.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, it's a long process.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: There were lots of stories, yeah, for sure.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say that was tough.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, speaking of some tough things, this is a very good segue into the next topic, which is at the NAI Indoor National Meet last March, you were ranked at the top of the field in 800.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: There were a lot of predictions that said, hey, you know, Reynolds could win it, he could win it all.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, your four by 800 was ranked highly as well um going into the meet.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: And then you had to withdraw because you were not medically cleared to compete.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: So you had a pretty, pretty serious medical incident while on a warm-up run um outside of the track with your teammates, ended up being hospitalized, and then um that really changed around the lineup for what Spring Arbor attempted to do, and um, you know, surely led to some disappointment.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I'm gonna let you share what you feel comfortable sharing and um just kind of tell us what happened and the end result and um you know how it all worked out for you to feel at peace with how it ended up.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a crazy story.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I w I think I was predicted to win.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I can start with some of the backstory.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: We traveled.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what time we traveled, I just remember not getting enough sleep.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a very key detail.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um something I also later found out with another medical incident I had after that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't get enough sleep, I wasn't hydrating enough.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't drinking or eating enough.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Michigan was also very cold.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we go to Florida for nationals.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so the heat difference and change, I maybe wasn't really used to it yet.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And take all those things together, and then your body's just gonna do weird things.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was out running.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was um I don't remember a lot of this, so I my it's a little spacey for me.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I remember running and then I the part I don't remember, this is where I don't remember, this is from what other people have told me.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of stopped maybe about a mile in and I kind of looked dazed.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a teammate just ask me um hating what's wrong.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I fell to the ground and I started having a seizure and on my medical records and after doing a whole bunch of tests afterwards when I got back to Michigan, um, they they still don't really know what it was.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it was kind of described like you had this medical record with a whole bunch of factors like sleep deprivation, not enough water, and stuff like that, and um, which caused this syncope episode.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a seizure, but it's a syncope episode.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we don't all we don't ultimately know if it was or wasn't um yeah, and I was hospitalized.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I got fluids when I was there.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I probably was only in the hospital ER for maybe like two or three hours.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I felt fine.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I could go out and like run.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It cut I felt like my blood sugar like just went a lot lower than what it normally like should have.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not like diabetic or anything.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I am.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: No answers yet.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but I do know like when I'm running or something, um or if I'm just going out my day, and like I think I told my wife yesterday I was like, I need to eat something, like my blood sugar is low.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I'm fine.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that could have happened, but uh definitely sleep I think had the biggest effect.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I got like two hours the night before, and then three hours the day after, and then that that day like right before it happened, I think I got like another three hours, so I did not get any sleep.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um But yeah, I was ranked first going in, and then that happened, and then it kind of like went back and forth.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't like completely upset, but I also was like it was like a struggle, it was like a battle.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think like one minute I'd be fine, and then the other minute I'd be like man, that sucks.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have hi historically always had a hard time watching races.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I just want to go out there and just just run.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be watching um high schoolers.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't even watch I I my sister was running in high school and I'd I I had a hard time watching her run uh like the whole meet.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd only come for just her race and then I'd have to leave because it was so hard for me to just watch.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't like watching.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think just to go back a little bit, that's why it was so hard for me to watch my red shirt year.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um But it was it was kind of like the biggest hardest thing to watch was your race, someone else is winning it, and you were ranked first, and now you're gonna not gonna to to uh to watch at all.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or now you're not gonna uh um compete at all.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I didn't watch the race, I didn't end up watching it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think I ended up going to like the Nike outlet or something.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've made peace with it and um you just get up from there.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what else can you do?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I can't dwell on it and I can't change that, change what happened, and I can change my sleep for sure.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely helped.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you've spoken pretty candidly about aligning your identity with your faith rather than your athletic outcomes.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: So having that experience and that perspective, did that shift your approach as you continued into the outdoor season, knowing that you were coming off of this incident and then about to head into your final season as a cougar?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, it's a great question.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like God's purpose for me, and I maybe would argue for other Christians is that he's more concerned with the heart posture and the development of you as a person and you becoming more like Christ.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as a selfish, prideful kind of runner, maybe no one would admit that, but I think in some ways we all have that as an athlete to some degree.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: We all come in as a freshman with this perspective and trajectory that we want to accomplish as much as we possibly can, get our names on the board, get the all-Americans and national championships, and they're great.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think they really are.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: But when they're idolized, um God is jealous.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think there were times when um I was idolizing those things.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think after my sophomore year, I I had just a just a perspective like it was a haunting experience, like kind of perspective.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're at the you're at number one and you kind of you you've done all this work and you look behind you, and everybody behind you has their eyes on you and they want to be exactly where you're at.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, ugh.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't depressed or anything.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I surely was left empty, and I didn't feel like anything.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I almost felt worse.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was that was it.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of my and so that was maybe the start of like God really changing my heart.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, like I'm gonna try my very best to be anybody who's in front of me.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think you should, like, you should be a good steward of what God has given you and do it as if you were doing it for him.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: But not in the substitution for him.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: That that medal shouldn't be uh taking the place of him.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what I think he was trying to really maybe nail and maybe test, like, all right, you are number one, what happens if this if this was a if this was a test, which I don't think we'll really ultimately know the answer to that, but if it was a test, um how is he gonna act?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think there were times when I wish I didn't act that way and um but I think what is God looking at?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's looking at the growth.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think he would be proud of the growth that that this has been um caused in me.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so big picture now what is running done for me to become closer to God, but have I walked away to become more Christ-like and to be more like him and I think the answer is yes.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, looking back at my freshman year, I just didn't really have that perspective.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: But now my super senior year, hindsight, retirement, I think I have that, and I think wow, that's what God was trying to do.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's pretty cool.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: What piece of advice would you give to a freshman or a younger runner in the NAIA who is trying to make their mark on the national stage?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would say just take one day at a time, little things add up, and you're not like uh it's like uh how do you eat an elephant?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: You just eat it one bite at a time.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean always have that goal.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think you need to have like goals and micro goals.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of something that was kind of brought to the team that we weren't really doing, but ended up later doing like goals are important.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um you gotta have vision, I think.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: That I think really that was that really paid in the dividends, the visionary part of my racing.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you can visualize the race, if you can if you can um do as much front loading of the work that you possibly can before you before you race, like visionary vision work, sorry, vision visionizing, oh my goodness.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Visualizing the race.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep Visualizing the race, making sure you're getting enough electrolytes and protein.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um the workouts that you've been doing.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think we all kind of sometimes like, alright, you finally get there.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're gonna have these feelings of like nerves and stuff.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta be confident in the workouts that you've done and remind yourself, like, oh yeah, I just did this 800 workout, or I just did this lift, or I've been stretching, or I've been planning.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're gonna there's gonna come a point where those feelings are gonna come and doubt's gonna try to infiltrate, and like I don't really know if I can do this when somebody who is better than you is standing right next to you.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's where the confidence comes in.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, like I've done all these things, remind yourself.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that has really helped me in the beginning.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but something I've done all through my whole entire career is just visualizing the race.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um I could just speak into that a little more because that really helps.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would take a note card and I would maybe say for the 800 or the mile, it's a lot easier to do with track events because it's a little a track.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would draw circles, and then on the circles I would draw 100, 200, 300, 400.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for the 800, I would know what I want to come in at 200, and then for the 400, and then if I really wanted to like I don't know, I I would say I want to know the race more than the race knows me.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want I would draw like what do I want to come in at?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: 100, 200, 300, 400, and so on.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I know the times, and then I would try to visualize how I'm gonna race the race.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: How would I when am I gonna make my move?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes I would make two moves, so there would be like a I don't know, I call them gear changes.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you make a gear change at this point, and then you make your last gear change, which is an all-out, you got nothing left.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: That really helped me.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that like helped me win more races than anything that I can maybe offer, but um I highly recommend that.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: For cross-country, I would just take the the map of the the course and visualize it a couple times.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And really, where I got that idea was from my cross-country coach who had us lay on the ground and he turned the lights off, and every conference meet he would basically narrate this script from our Cascade conference, and it was crazy because I felt like I was running the race, I had like the nerves of running the race, but I wasn't doing anything, and that kind of like opened the door for me.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I can do this with track, I can do this with any other race.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically, what I was doing was when you visualize in the race, you're you're already meeting those nerves, you're already thinking about those things, and you um when when you finally get to the line, you can deal with them because you've already dealt with them in a safe and uh controllable environment.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh yeah, I've already done this before.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I highly recommend that for anyone listening.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's something that I don't think gets as much attention or practice as it should.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we we focus a lot on the physical aspect, eating and um hydration and sleep and you know, recovery and the miles and all those things, which are all, of course, important.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but there's a reason that professional athletes have sports psychologists or they have people to help them mentally prepare.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: I know, um, watching Josh Kerr's journey through his preparation for the world record in the mile, he had the same type of preparation as far as visualization, like this is what I'm gonna be doing at this point in the race.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't a surprise when he got to that point.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_04: He was ready for it.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, he'd already kind of imagined this is what it's gonna feel like, this is what I'm gonna be doing.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_04: And uh also just building some confidence for the fact that when you're there, you physically prepared, you've practiced a lot, but have you ever mentally prepared?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes that's what takes people by surprise.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: They're like, I just wasn't ready to like mentally meet that challenge at that point in time.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: And um not that you have to do that to be successful, I think it's just an extra edge or element that maybe some people just haven't thought about.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that made me I think I was a good athlete.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that made me a great athlete.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: The extra little edge mentally, yeah.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well, as you look back at your journey at Spring Arbor University, how did it feel to step off the track and out of your uniform for that very last time?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was sad.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think Jacob and I.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Jacob is one of my former teammates who also graduated.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was a year under me, but we graduated at the same time.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: He was a senior, I was a super senior.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: We just kind of like shared some tears together.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I it was sad.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I you I just want to like the the cross country scene just started back up, and I just like I just want to go back.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like the leaves are falling, and this is what I know.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like um so I think there should be more awareness in this.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um my wife and I have kind of talked about this, but there's I think there is like this separation effect that athletes feel sometimes that like, oh my gosh, what do you do?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're separate from this amazing community.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's some people can like really enter in like depression if they're not rooted, right?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that is not talked enough about and I think to some degree I kinda had that.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wasn't depressed by any means, but I was like, man, I really miss my teammates.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And like you're just severed, like I'm not a part of the group chats anymore, I don't get to go to the runs anymore.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: All this stuff.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um it's a grieving process.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great that's that's what I was looking for.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a grieving process.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_04: I know, I lived it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: I get it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: I can hundred percent relate.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: It is so hard.
• 38:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that's kind of what I'm walking through right now.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's hard for me to go back to the school and and sit in the office.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I got pictures up and it reminds me of this.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I see old teammates with pictures, and the coaches are talking, and they're just it's just like a train that just kept going, and you're just left at the station.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how I feel.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh my gosh, like this train is gonna just keep going and going, and people are gonna get on and people are gonna get off, and I I've served my time.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's an experience.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I had a very hard time with that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I distinctly remember coming back from Nationals, my senior year, and and we had flown because it was in British Columbia.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, we were coming back from the airport in the team van, and every mile that we got closer to the campus, I I felt like this.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_04: I can still feel it, like this sense of dread.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, this is the last time that I will ever do this.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: This is it, this is the end.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_04: And when we got back and we, you know, got out of the van and everyone's saying goodbyes.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_04: My coach kind of looked at me and I looked at him, and I just lost it, like just started sobbing.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_04: And he, you know, he he joined right in, and it was just this moment.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: And my my teammates who were not graduating were like, we're out of here.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like they couldn't, they couldn't handle that emotional moment.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then all summer, and then into the fall, you know, I I got married after nationals the next month.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: I you know, I had graduated already, I was moving into my new job as a teacher, and it all felt so foreign.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I was terribly lost as a runner.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like, where do I fit in?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_04: I miss my teammates, I miss the structure of the team, I miss being at school.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's so hard.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: And you're right, I don't think people are really prepared for that severing of this identity that you have associated yourself with for so long.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: And you can always keep running.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's something you can carry into your the rest of your life, however you choose to, but you will never have those moments with your team again.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: It won't ever be the same.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: And that is the end of your competitive career.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: And for me, that was middle school, high school, college.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's a long time to be on a team.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also even say, too, like what I go to a local gym around here and just um like everything has changed.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like everything that you've just said, but even when I go out and do workouts, I'm like, all right, I used to be around people who push themselves and uh like know how to like work hard, essentially.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um not saying that these people don't do that or anything, I'm not talking bad about them.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the environment that I was in is completely different.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to the gym and maybe I'm doing a pull-up or something, or a bench, or whatever I'm doing.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of look around, there's two outcomes.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like one, they're even on their phone, either on their phone or they're just not pushing themselves.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, this is just almost flabbergasted for me to just watch.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I'm I'm I think I'm just like sometimes discouraged.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like so just navigating that, and yeah, that's also interesting.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, in in most cases, your teammates are your closest friends, too.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: So you spend every day, you know, some of the toughest moments, like the hardest moments being a runner has a lot of hard moments, um, emotional moments, the highs and the lows, and then you kind of just aren't there together anymore.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: And that that's also really hard.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I will tell you, it gets better, it gets easier, but it definitely takes time, and you're in the thick of it, that first fallback when you're not there, that is the hardest for sure.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so all the things you're feeling are completely legitimate and very much where I was at my first year out of school.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Gonna have to do another podcast like five years from now and tell me how far I've come along.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that was uh actually my next question.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: So now that you're done with competitive college running, what does your relationship with running look like moving forward?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, do you want to keep competing?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_04: Do you just want to be done?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_04: Some people just want to be done.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't know.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was I had no idea how I felt.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I don't I didn't I didn't have any like thing to look forward to.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't sure if I'll be like, eh, I don't want to do this anymore.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I found that I still like running.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: Praise God.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I still I still like running, so I've been doing probably six to eight miles a day.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would say the one thing I've been doing differently Is I'm kind of experimenting.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do I want to build a base longer and then kind of do some workouts?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's kind of what I'm doing right now.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just seeing how that affects the body, I guess.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um building a base longer and then doing workouts.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm then that experimental phase.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um some goals I have.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: I always I feel like I've um kind of the top end speed of running with 800 and 400 miles, like you know what kind of pain that brings, you know what kind of speed and endurance that kind of brings, and what all goes into that.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um but there's the other side of running where how far can I run um at a slow speed until my body just gives up, which probably is a little dangerous considering my history, but um Well Dean, what I know about you is you don't shy away from a challenge.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I just I want to try ultra running.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see if I can run a hundred miles or two hundred or maybe three hundred.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the answer to that, and I feel confident.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it looks a little differently, so I'm kind of trying to build a a strong base before that ever happens.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I've actually I I think I have bigger goals than what I did in college, but they just look a little different.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh I I will say too, the speed that you have right now, hang on to it as long as you can because that is the first thing to start slipping away as you age.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's just a natural progression of aging.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't mean you can't be fast and be competitive as an older runner.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's lots of people that do amazing things in their 50s, 60s and beyond.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's just something you have to be very um specific about focusing on.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, like I could run forever and that would never change.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: I just wouldn't ever be able to go fast again.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: And if I did, I might injure myself.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, you have to be quite um technical in your preparation as you age with speed work, but you're I mean, you're still young, so you got all the things working in your favor.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: So so you're looking at these different running options, you're looking for a job, you're looking ahead to what's next, and big changes, right?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, the next stage of your life is around the corner.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lots of big stuff.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're just looking, we're just kind of open-handed right now, a lot of trust.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of our life.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: And running seems to kind of be this um get out of the house, um pour your stress into, kind of thing.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's also another thing of the reason why I like to run right now.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's always been very centering and grounding for me.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_04: Whatever that looks like, yeah, I I I feel better if I can get out and run or take a walk.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like I just that helps me a lot.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and speaking of running, if you could run with anyone from history.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: So this could be, you know, they could be alive now, they could have passed away long ago, like a historical figure.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: But if you could, you know, take a run with somebody, who would you pick to run and chat with?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_04: And where would you like to take a run if you could go anywhere in the world?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I have three people in mind.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um other than I would I would run with Jesus in the flesh.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um that I think would be an awesome time.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think C.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: S.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis would be also uh another great person to run with, maybe in England, on the streets of England or something in his time.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then his mentor Tolkien, I think I would also enjoy running with.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe just seeing what just picking their brains.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that'd be awesome.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, those are all amazing choices, actually.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh do you think that Jesus would wear running shoes or sandals?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: Just curious.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think he wouldn't wear anything.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't need to.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think he would if he's walking on water.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's just gonna go barefoot on the pavement and then he won't have any blisters.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_04: That is a perk to being God, I guess.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: Don't have to find the right fit in your running shoes.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh, I guess this is goodbye to one stage of life, but not goodbye to all, right?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_04: Once a runner, always a runner.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um I know that you have been a large force in the crossroads league atmosphere, the NAIA.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I mean, you're a really big reason that my kid chose to go to Spring Arbor too.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: So we have been exceptionally proud of all the things that you've accomplished, and it's been so much fun to watch you race.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that you will miss it, but we will miss it too.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_04: So um, just an incredible career, incredible person, and we're very thankful that we got to know you and all the things that you've been able to do have been a joy to watch.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I appreciate that.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I also just want to say if anybody uh is listening and wants advice in anything spiritual or running a hundred mile, you can give them my number or anything like that.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to reach out to them.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: I will do that.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Dean, I'm sure this is not goodbye forever, but for now, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and can't wait to see what life brings you next.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much for tuning in to the Red Banner Race Report.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: I can't wait to feature more cross-country and track and field athletes from the NAIA, so stay tuned because it just might be you.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_04: If you enjoyed today's podcast, please share, subscribe, and leave a review.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_04: You can find the Red Banner Rage Report podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and other major media players.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: You can also ask for SmartSpeaker to play the podcast.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_04: If you have an idea for a great topic or guest you'd like to hear about, feel free to contact me through the show notes or reach out on Instagram.