Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / UnDocked Live from Athens: Can Shipping Pursue Digital Efficiency Without Sacrificing Resilience?
Transcript
- Nick Chubb: So to rather present into a choice of efficiency or resilience, I believe is wrong. I believe that's a totally false choice because I think going into an age where resilience has to become another one, think. So to ask, I was actually going to for efficiency for Brazilian, I believe it's what, I'm excited. I believe that's the total false trust, because I think that going into a page where Brazilian stuff doesn't happen, that has a lot positive, Thomas Warwick: So, Raoul presented you a choice of efficiency or resilience. I believe he's wrong, obviously. I believe that's a totally false choice because I think we're going into an age where resilience has to become the number one, Nick Chubb: We're something a little bit unique in our drinks reception this evening. I'd like to introduce you to Nick Chubb and Rob Harris, our co-hosts of Undogged. Thank you. Thomas Warwick: We're doing something a little bit unique in our drinks reception this evening. I'd like to introduce you to Nick Chubb and Raoul Harris, our co-hosts of Undocked. Thank you. Nick Chubb: While you're doing something a little bit unique in our drinks reception this evening, I'd like to introduce you to Nicha and Raoul Harris, our co-hosts of Undogged. Thank you. Thomas Warwick: Are we recording, Tom? Great. What a great professional way to start. That's how they do. Are we recording? That's how most episodes are. This is one of the things that you need to know about this because we normally do this. We just talk for ages and then we cut it down to something that looks like a podcast. We get lots of like, we recordings? When you do it live, you're not supposed to do that. That's true. Should we try that again? Hello, everyone. Nick Chubb: Are we recording? Yeah, we've been recording for five minutes. What a great professional way to start. This is one of the things you need to know about this, because we normally do this and just talk for ages and then we cut it down to something that looks like a podcast. We get lots of our recordings. We were recording. What a great professional way to start. That's how we'll do it. Are we recording? How about this episode? This is one of the things that you need to know about this because we normally do this. We just talk for ages and then we cut it down to something that looks like it won't cost. We're going to get lots of like, are we recording? When you do it live, you're not supposed to do that. Should we try that again? Hello everyone. When Thomas Warwick: and welcome to a very special live episode Nick Chubb: We are delighted to be here at the Undocked and Unwrapped reception at the Digital Ships site. Ra, how's the day been for you? It's been great. know, when you first talked about everything you're thinking and doing here, I think when I started the Maritime Institute 20 years ago, the IT person was sort of in a cupboard under the stairs and nobody paid them any love or attention. Thomas Warwick: of the Undocked podcast. We are delighted to be here at the Undocked and Unwind reception at the Digital Ships Summit. Ra, how's the day been for you? It's been great. You know, when you first talked about what you're thinking of doing here, I think when I started Maritime, said to you 20 years ago, the IT person was sort of in a cupboard under the stairs and nobody paid them any love or attention. Nick Chubb: and I always And I always dreamed that there would be a sort of a convener of getting those people together because they share very common frustrations. And we've just seen that today. I think it's been really great to have a sort of a, what's the word for it? I guess there's no doubling down of the conversation. So it's been assuming a high level of knowledge which allowed them to get into a much deeper. Thomas Warwick: And I always dreamed that there would be a of a convening of getting those people together because they share very common frustrations. And we've just seen that today that I think it's been really great to have a sort of a, what's the word for it? I guess it's, there's no dumbing down of the conversation. You know, so it's been assuming a high level of knowledge which allows you to get into a much deeper. Nick Chubb: dreamed that there would be a sort of open convening of getting those people together because they share very common frustrations. today that I think it's been really great to have a sort of a, what's the word for it? I guess it's something that there's no dumbing down in the conversation. You know, so it's been assuming a high level of knowledge which allows them to get into a much deeper and more valuable conversations. I thought it was really interesting and I'm not, I don't think of myself as an IT person but I'm always IT adjacent because they're normally the gatekeepers that allow technology to take place and Thomas Warwick: and more valuable conversations. So I thought it was really interesting. I'm not a, I don't think of myself as an IT person, but I'm always IT adjacent because they're normally the gatekeepers that allow for the technology to take place. Nick Chubb: and more valuable conversation. So I think it was really interesting. I'm not, I don't think of myself as an IT person, but I'm always IT adjacent because they're normally the gatekeepers that allow for the technology to take place. and and you know we've seen some really talented and incredible people and I think the fact that you've shared so much information has been great. Yeah when we first announced this summit we actually we took took a little bit of a strike for Thomas Warwick: you know, I've seen some really talented and clever people. And I think the fact that people have shared so much information has been great as well. So. Yeah, when we first announced the summit, actually, we took a little bit of flack for. Nick Chubb: seeing some really talented and clever people and the fact that people have shared so much information has been really, something. When we first announced the summit, we took a little bit of a flat for making it too focused on IT, but our view is that IT is moving from a support function to a function of genuine strategic value to a shipyard organization, and so it's really important that it has its own force. So we're delighted to be doing that today. But you mentioned the quality of conversation, and you mentioned that we normally sort of ramble for an hour and half, and then the producer Tom is over there. making it too focused on IT, but our view is that IT is moving from a support function to a function of genuine strategic value to a shipping organization, and so it's really important that it has a true form to meet Thomas Warwick: making it too focused on IT. But our view is that IT is moving from a support function to a function of genuine strategic value to a shipping organization. And so it's really important that it has its own forum. And so we're delighted to be doing that today. But you mentioned the quality of the conversation. And you mentioned that we normally sort of ramble for an hour and a half. And then producer Tom, he's over there. Nick Chubb: delighted to be doing that today. You mentioned the quality of the conversation, you mentioned that we normally sort of round off and then producing Tom, and he's over there. It cuts us down to make us sound intelligent. We don't have that luxury to do it. So what's the format for the next 20 minutes? So whenever we do anything live, we always try and think about how can we make this more purposeful and a little bit stripped out. So we normally do a bit of one of those talks, the other one cuts in It cuts us down. We don't have that luxury today. So what's the format for the next 20 minutes? So we're always trying to think about how can we make this more purposeful and more strict. So we normally kind of do a bit of one of the talks, the other one cuts it. Thomas Warwick: cuts us down to make us sound intelligent. We don't have that luxury today. So what's the format for the next 20 minutes? So whenever we do anything live, we always sort try and kind of think about how can we make this more purposeful and more, a little bit stricter. So we normally kind of do a kind of a bit of a one of us talks, the other one cuts in Nick Chubb: in and tells us we're stupid. then, know, I want to say we're totally in opposition, but we should try and of oppose. Thomas Warwick: and tells us we're stupid and then, you know, I wouldn't say we're totally in opposition, but we should try and kind of oppose. Nick Chubb: and tells us we're stupid and then, you know, I want to say we're totally in opposition, you know, we should try and kind of oppose or at least put together two different kind of manifestos of some kind of point of view. And this, so today we thought about, we thought about you guys in the audience and, you know, what are the things that are on your mind, and where are the big decisions that you'll need to make? or at least put together two different kind of manifestos of some kind of point of view. so today we thought about you guys in the audience and what are the things that are on your mind and where are the big decisions that we need to make. Thomas Warwick: or at least put together two different kind of manifestos of some kind of point of view. So today we thought about you guys in the audience and what are the things that are on your mind and where are the big decisions that you need to make. Nick Chubb: And so both of us have kind of gone away and thought about a major kind of decision area that we envisage is Thomas Warwick: And so both of us have kind of gone away and thought about a major kind of decision area that we envisage is Nick Chubb: And so both of us have kind of gone away and thought about a major data-proceduring area that really is or should be on your mind. And we're going to try and get it, I guess, in pretty short order. We're going take about 70 to 80. And we'd to hear what you think is more important. But we'll try and see a bit of the conversation. And we'll just keep going until everyone's gone. Is is or should be on your mind and we're going to try and I'm picking it I guess in in pretty short order. I mean we're going to take about 10 minutes each And and we'd love to kind of hear what you you know what you think is more important But we'll try and see a bit of the conversation and we'll just keep going until then the ones right now I have to see But Thomas Warwick: is or should be on your mind and we're going to try and unpick it, I guess, in pretty short order. I mean, we're to take about 10 minutes each. And we'd love to kind of hear what you think is more important, but we'll try and seed a bit of the conversation and we'll just keep going until everyone's run out of steam. Nick Chubb: But yeah, so the other thing to say is that we don't, the one tricky thing we do live is when we do it online, Thomas Warwick: But yeah, so the other thing to say is that we don't... The one tricky thing when we do it live is when we do it online... Nick Chubb: yeah, so so the other thing to say is that we don't the one tricky thing when we do it live is when we do it We don't know what they've been talking about, each of us. We have no idea. We do no preparation. We're the laziest people in in Chris and me. Which of course gives you a slight problem live because there's always the possibility that neither of us were having a good thing. So we personally don't over practice. We present what it would be, be a bit stale. So I don't know what he's Thomas Warwick: We don't know what we're going to talk about, each of us. We have no idea. We do no preparation. We're the laziest people in Christendom, which of course gives you a slight problem live because there's always a possibility that neither of us will have anything, right? So, but we purposefully don't over-practice because then what it would be would be, you know, really stale. So I don't know what he's Nick Chubb: we don't know what we're talking about, we have no idea, we do no preparation, don't know what we're we do preparation, we don't was getting slapped up with five because there's always a possibility that neither of us will have anything, right? So we purposely don't go to practice and present what it means to be able to sustain. So I don't know if Thomas Warwick: going to talk about. I think he's got a slight idea of what I'm going to talk about, but you're going to see this thought process in real time. Luckily he's only had one of those so far, so we should be okay. Nick Chubb: going to talk about. I think he's got a slight idea of what I'm going to talk about. You're going to see this thought process in real time. Luckily, he's only had one of those so far, so we should be OK. I think it's got slightly more of a reminder to think about. You're going to see this full process in real time. Luckily, I've been on those so far, so I'm sure you'll get there. Raal: Better decisions start with better data. Built across maritime, fleet data is still fragmented, inconsistently standardized. And uneven in quality. A weak data foundation means unreliable decisions on top of it. The same is true for AI and analytics. They're only as good as the data they're fed. That's why getting the fundamentals right, data standards, structure, and governance, Has to come before scaling any innovation on top of it. When leaders trust the data, they move faster, invest with more confidence, and turn digital ambition into measurable outcomes. Build trusted data foundations with insight. Follow the link in the episode description. Thomas Warwick: Am I going to go first? Yeah, go on then. Let's hear your big decision that I think need to make in the next 12 months. So I've been thinking a lot about the backdrop today. And I know that this has kind of been a heavy day in some respects in kind of thinking and stuff. So I was desperately trying to think of something joyful and energizing. And I completely failed to do that. So I'm going to depress you. Nick Chubb: Am I getting there first? Yeah, let's hear your big decisions. So I've been thinking a lot about the backdrop to today and I know that this has kind of been a heavy day in some respects and kind of thinking and stuff so I was desperately trying to think of something you know joyful and energizing and I completely failed to do that so I'm to depress you. Am I going to go first? Yeah, come on in. Let's meet in your big description. Okay. See you the next talk. So I've been thinking a lot about the backdrop to today and I know that this has been a heady day with some stress and thinking and stuff so I've been trying to think of something joyful and energising and I completely failed to do that so I'm going to press you. I'm going to kind of, you know, I'm going to hopefully rally towards the end with some fun. Because I think the thing is, I don't think that you can do what you guys do in isolation, of course, right. And for a long time, it's not been the only game in town because cyber security has been there. But the main game in town has been about efficiency. How can we use software and to make things more efficient to to get savings and all that kind of stuff. And I think what we've seen over the last Thomas Warwick: I'm going to hopefully rally towards the end with some positivity. Because I think the thing is, I don't think that you can do what you guys do in isolation, of course. And for a long time, it's not been the only game in town, because cybersecurity has been there. But the main game in town has been about efficiency, and how can we use software to make things more efficient, and to get savings, and all that kind of stuff. And I think what we've seen over the last Nick Chubb: I'm to hopefully rally this once again because I think the thing is I don't think we can do what you guys in isolation and for a long time I've stopped being the only game in town because the service community hasn't been there but the main game in town has been about efficiency and how can we use software and to make things more efficient to get get savings and all that kind of stuff and I think what we've seen over the last certainly the year that we've been doing this big blast is a bit of a shift from that and we've seen a lot of things that used to rely on kind of feeling like art certainly the year that we've been doing this podcast, is a bit of a shift from that. And we've seen a lot of things that we used to rely on kind of falling apart Thomas Warwick: Certainly the year that we've been doing this podcast is a bit of a shift from that. And we've seen a lot of the things that we used to rely on kind of falling apart Nick Chubb: and start to, know, whether that's geopolitical teams, or, you know, taxi on the streets, but also other areas where the traitors have been weaponized and things like that. We've seen that kind of going on. And then we've also seen, as AI has come in, it's, and starting to, know, whether that's geopolitical things, course, know, attacks in the strait and promotes and stuff, but also other areas where traders and trade groups have been weaponized and things like that. We've seen that kind of going on. And then we've also seen as AI has come in, it's Thomas Warwick: and starting to, whether that's geopolitical things, course, attacks in the Strait of Hormuz and stuff, but also other areas where traders and trade routes have been weaponized and things like that. We've seen that kind of going on. And then we've also seen, as AI has come in, it's... Nick Chubb: You know, for a lot of this audience has been around a long time and you think perhaps not as disruptive, but I think from my point of view, looking at it now, you're trying to evaluate software and those things and pick a winner, Thomas Warwick: For a lot of this audience, it's been around a long time and it's perhaps not as disruptive. I think from my point of view, looking at it now, when you're trying to evaluate software and those kinds of things and pick a Nick Chubb: you know, for a lot of this audience, it's been around a long time, and it's perhaps not as disruptive, I think the reminder that you're looking at it now, like, you're trying to evaluate software and those kind of things, and pick on a software to that or a technology to that. It's really thrown a hand today into all of that sort of thing. Thomas Warwick: winner, pick a software to back or a technology to back, it's really thrown a hand grenade into all of that sort of thing. And so Nick Chubb: pick a software to back or a technology to back. It's really throwing a hand with AID into all of that sort of thing. And so And so my big question that I think everybody needs to be thinking about and going away and make decision for us is around whether they are focusing on my big question that I think everybody needs to be thinking about, go away and make a decision on is around whether they are focusing on Thomas Warwick: my big question that I think everybody needs to be thinking about and go away and make a decision on is around whether they are focusing on Nick Chubb: on efficiency or whether they are working both on resilience. Now it may seem that I'm putting that together as a false kind of justification because you say well I need both of course you do need both but I think in the arguments I'll present you are going to have to choose which side of that efficiency or whether they are focusing on resilience. Now it may seem that I'm putting that together as a whole span of just position, which is the way both, of course it didn't work. But I think in the arguments of presenting, you are going to have to choose which side of that Thomas Warwick: on efficiency or whether they are focusing on resilience. Now it may seem that I'm putting that together as a false kind of juxtaposition because you say, I need both. Of course you do need both. But I think in the arguments I'll present, you are going to have to choose which side of that Nick Chubb: fence you're on and ask the people that are essentially signing off on what you're doing to pick one because I think trying to get caught in the middle at a time like this is going to make things very very difficult. Thomas Warwick: fence you're on and ask the people that are essentially signing off on what you're doing to pick one. Because I think trying to get caught in the middle at a time like this is going to make things very, very difficult. Nick Chubb: and ask for the email, essentially signing off on what you're doing is a gift one. Because if they're trying to get more than the middle of it, one time like this is going to make things very difficult. Why are we not efficiency with resilience? Why those two poles? I don't think that they are, they're sort of two poles, but I think that the prioritization that you need to have and set up. Now obviously we talk about what we're thinking about resilience. Clearly there's something we talked about today, like how robust are you towards yourself. So I don't think we can talk about that. The second one is recovery. Thomas Warwick: Why efficiency and resilience? Why those two poles? I don't think that they are sort of two poles, but I think that the prioritisation that you need to have and set up. Now, obviously, if we talk about what is it we're sort of thinking about with resilience, clearly there's the stuff we talked about today, like how robust are you towards attack and stuff. So I don't think we need to talk about that. We talked about that exhaustively today. The second, though, is recovery. Nick Chubb: I don't think there are two poles, but I think that the prioritisation that you need to have, Now, talk about working with this and thinking about resilience, clearly there's something talked about today, like how robust are you towards attack and things. So I don't think we need to talk about that, we'll talk about that in a short bit today. The second, though, is recovery, And that came up today as well, like how quickly can you get these, we know things will happen, how quickly can we get back up again? And that becomes a very different question when you look at the disruption that we have today. And we ask ourselves, know, how can I plan for a future that looks very, very uncertain? Because getting back to normal might not be a 12 hour thing. It might be months of not being able to do what you expected to do or what was in the plan. Thomas Warwick: And that came up today as well, like how quickly can you get, you know, we know things will happen, how quickly can we get back up again? And that becomes a very different question when you look at the disruption that we have today and we ask ourselves, you know, how can I plan for a future that looks very, very uncertain? Because getting back to normal might not be a 12 hour thing. It might be months of not being able to do what you expected to do and what was in the plan. Nick Chubb: and that came up today as well. Like how quickly can you get back up again? And that becomes a very different question when you look at the disruption that we have today and we ask ourselves, know, how can I plan for the future that looks very, very uncertain? Because getting back to normal might not be as one without the feeling we have. It might be months of not being able to do what you expected to do and it in the plan. And that then changes something very different and that came up when he was chatting to Yanis earlier because he said And that then changed something very different. And that came up when I was chatting to Yanis earlier, because I said Thomas Warwick: And that then changes something very different. And that came up when I was chatting to Yanis earlier because I said Nick Chubb: to to him, you know, I made the point to him, we're not good at investing for just in place scenarios. But if you look at the shows we've done and the interviews we've done with all the major leaders in shipping, we are in for example, as quoted in Singapore last week saying exactly what I'm saying now, is that we have to invest in just in place scenarios. We have to invest in areas that we do not expect or want to happen. Thomas Warwick: to him, you know, or I made the point to him, we're not good at investing for just in case scenarios. But if you look at the shows that we've done and the interviews we've done with all the major leaders in shipping, really, beyond Hoi Gawd, for example, is quoted in Singapore last week saying exactly what I'm saying now is that we have to invest in just in case scenarios. We have to invest in areas that we do not expect or want to happen. Nick Chubb: him or make a point to him. We're not going to invest in just in case that our ears. But if you look at the shows that we've done, the music we've done, all the major venues, things should be really legal. Your report card for example is 20bc report last week saying exactly what I'm saying now is that we have to invest in just in those scenarios. have to invest in areas that we do not expect or want to happen but that has to be and that means we're making decisions on the budget and it means we're kind of making decisions around when and when we invest. And that's where you make that sacrifice of efficiency for Britain leaders. Well I'm just getting started. Those are two big ones. I'm just saying that the second one there about getting back But that has to be and that means we're making decisions on the budget and it means we're kind of making decisions around where and when we invest. And that's where you end up sacrificing efficiency for it. Well, that I'm I'm just getting started. Those are two givens. I'm just saying that the second one there about getting back Thomas Warwick: but that has to be and that means we're making decisions on the budget and it means we're kind of making decisions around where and when we invest. And that's where you end up sacrificing efficiency for resilience. Well, I'm just getting started. Those are two givens. I'm just saying that the second one there about getting back Nick Chubb: up again is a big one. The third one is about, let me say, of like optionality and how much you want to be open for the future, because then that starts to. Thomas Warwick: up again is a big one. The third one is about sort of, let me say kind of like optionality and how much you want to leave open for the future because then that starts to... Nick Chubb: The third one is about, let me say, of like optionality and how much you want to leave open for the future. Because then that starts that starts to really kind of go and actually I've seen a lot of the things I was going to bring up talked about today but maybe we just looking at them from a slightly different angle but when you look at like vendor looking and things like that you get huge efficiencies from going with a single vendor and then there's huge dependencies and what when I say about disruption okay there's a lot of stuff that's way beyond your control but if you look at what will happen to vendors in an age like this with software and stuff you know Thomas Warwick: that starts to really kind of go. And actually, I've seen a lot of the things I was gonna bring up talked about today, but maybe we're just looking at them from a slightly different angle. But when you look at like vendor lock-in and things like that, you get huge efficiencies from going with a single vendor, right? But then there's huge dependencies. And when I say about disruption, okay, there's a lot of stuff that's way beyond your control. But if you look at what will happen to vendors in an age like this, with software and stuff, you know. Nick Chubb: to really kind of go, and actually I've seen a lot of the things I was going to bring up, talked about today, but maybe we're just looking at them from a slightly different angle. when you look at like vendor locking and things like that, you get huge efficiencies from going with a single vendor. There's huge dependencies. And one of them I say about disruption, there's a lot of that's way beyond your control. But if you looked at what happened to vendors in an age like this, with stock wearing stuff, in terms of the consolidation that happens in the market, in terms of the decisions that they then make to back certain technologies, particularly as we've seen a lot of technologies coming in from outside of maritime. And of course, there's lots of efficiencies that come with that, but they may come at a cost of being able to have that optionality. So I think that when you're looking and you're saying, where am I going to place my decisions, the extent to which I can change that decision and go in a different direction. Thomas Warwick: in terms of the consolidation that happens in the market, in terms of the decisions that they then make to back certain technologies, particularly as we've seen a lot of technologies coming in from outside of maritime. And of course, there's lots of efficiencies that come with that, but then they come at a cost of being able to have that optionality. So I think that when you're looking and you're saying, where am I going to place my decisions, the extent to which I can change that decision and go in a different direction, Nick Chubb: in terms of the consolidation that happens in the market, in terms of the decisions that they then make to back certain technologies, particularly as we've seen a lot of technology coming in and outside of that, of course there's a lot of efficiency, we come with that, but then they come with the cost of being able to have that optionality. So I think that when you're looking at it you're saying, I can place my decisions, the extent to which I can change that decision and go in a different direction, That is going to inform the kind of partners that you select and the relationships and the contracts that you sign. One of the things we see Thomas Warwick: that is going to inform Nick Chubb: that is going to inform the kind of partners that we select and the relationships and the contracts that we sign. Thomas Warwick: the kind of partners that you select and the relationships and the contracts that you sign? We do quite a lot of work with ship owners directly where we're helping them pick software and things like that. And actually, Nick Chubb: One thing that we see most often actually is that not that they made an active choice to go from one vendor to another. We said no one really made a good choice. And over 10 years it's been drifted into their software stack and grouped in this IT space. then they end up a fixed tool. And if you pull one thread here, you're cancelling one contract here, and something other than that breaks, I know it quite knows how to fix it again. Yeah, absolutely. And the same is true about even within technology service. Thomas Warwick: one of the things we see most often actually is not that they've made a active choice to go for one vendor or lots of vendors. It's that no one really made a deliberate choice. And over 10 years, they've sort of drifted into their software stack and drifted into the IT stack. And then they end up caught. Nick Chubb: most often actually is not that they've made an active choice to go for one vendor or lots of vendors, is that no one really made a deliberate choice. Over 10 years, they sort drifted into their software stack and drifted into their team stack. And then they ended up or if we put one thread here, we'll cancel one contract here, something over there breaks and no one quite knows how it all fits together. Yeah absolutely and the same is true then even within technology so there's Thomas Warwick: where if you pull one thread here or cancel one contract here, something over there breaks. And no one quite knows how it all fits together. Yeah, absolutely. And the same is true then even within technology. So there's Nick Chubb: There's this huge drive, as you know, to make savings through AI, to really backfill our experience of AI. this huge drive as we know from board level to make savings through AI, to really bank AI, to go into AI Thomas Warwick: this huge drive, as we know from board level, to make savings through AI, to really back AI and to go into AI. Nick Chubb: and start to automate and re-entercise as the new work that you need to do. good But that worked, I tell That was some illusion, tell you. I to go and talk that wrong. In about five minutes. But if we do that, that makes a lot of sense. But what happens when we start to do that? We start to see skill frame in young people, certain way. We can no longer do some of these things. Very simple illustration, just thinking about how reliable you and to start to automate and agentise, isn't this the for the engine? Thomas Warwick: And to start to automate and agenticise, is a new word for me. Agenticise. Is that a word? Someone tell me. Don't worry, someone on YouTube will tell me. Nick Chubb: Is that a word? Someone tell me. Don't worry, someone on YouTube can tell me if I got that wrong. In about five minutes. But if we do that, that makes a lot of sense. But what happens when we start to do that? We start to see skill fade in the organization. We can no longer do some of these things. Very simple illustration, just thinking about how reliant we Thomas Warwick: if I got that wrong, in about five minutes. if we do that, that makes a lot of sense. But what happens when we start to do that? We start to see skill fade in the organization. We can no longer do some of these things. Very simple illustration, just thinking about how reliant we Nick Chubb: And are. And maybe five or 10 years ago, well, five years ago. Thomas Warwick: are. And maybe five or 10 years ago, Nick Chubb: maybe five or ten years ago, five years ago, Thomas Warwick: people were talking about taking celestial navigation out of SCCW, and we don't need that anymore. Nick Chubb: People are talking about taking celestial navigation out of SCCW and we don't need that anymore. people were talking about celestial navigation out west in CW, we don't need that anymore. And then suddenly we find we've got GPS spoofing and MF and GNS under threat and all those kinds of things. And then suddenly we didn't want to have those skills. And that's just like a really big example. But if you think about it from the more you remove people from some of these processes, the more you're sacrificing in terms of your potential vulnerabilities later on. And that's why I say, you know, do you actually Thomas Warwick: And then suddenly we find we've got GPS spoofing and GNS under threat and all those kind of things. And then suddenly we do want to have those skills and we do want to go. And that's just like a really big example. But if you think about it from the more you remove people from some of these processes, the more you're sacrificing in terms of your potential vulnerabilities later on. And that's why I say, you know, do you actually Nick Chubb: And then suddenly we got GPS smoothing and things, suddenly it became a 100 % And that's just like a really big example. you think about it from the more you remove people from salaries processing, the more you sacrifice in terms of potential profitability. it's rather just like I said, know, people who actually... Thomas Warwick: and then that leads me to another point around skills orientation. And I was really pleased to see that came up several times today. Nick Chubb: And then that leads me to another point around skills orientation and I was really pleased to see that came up several times today. And then that leads to another point around skills orientation. And I'm really pleased to see that getting up several times today. We were actually talking about the capabilities of people and I liked the fact that we gravitated towards being specific to AI. Maybe that will, know, Thomas Warwick: where we're actually talking about the capabilities of people. And I liked the fact that we gravitated towards this being specific to AI, but maybe we Nick Chubb: When we actually talking about paying for the services in the field, I liked the fact that we gravitated towards the case of AI. Maybe that would be a little... Maybe maybe we can get around to that. But if we think about the capabilities that we need to build within people, that's a very, very, again, a very, very different thing. And it comes back to the resource thing. Do we need to train them to do things, you know, we can get that to that point. But if you think about paying the rent, because maybe you need to build your own vehicle, that's very, very, again, a very, very difficult thing. And it comes back to the resource claim. Do we need to train communities? mean, Thomas Warwick: can get around to that. But if we think about the capabilities that we need to build within people, that's a very, very, again, a very, very different thing. And it comes back to the resource thing. Do we need to train them to do things in Nick Chubb: there's probably lots of other ways. You know, we have to use really optimized wage. It's probably going to be subject to construction. So again, it's just another end of the road. don't really know what you're to achieve with it. in lots of different ways, and we're backing this new optimised way, which is probably going to work, but is subject to disruption. So again, it's just another area where you don't really know what it is you're shooting for. Thomas Warwick: lots of different ways, or are we backing this new optimized way, which is probably going to work, but is subject to disruption? So again, it's just another area where you've got to really know what it is you're shooting for. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. And definitely from the people point of view, I can see the first place people seem to go when you talk about AI driven efficiency, for example, is cutting headcount, both either alarmously or as an opportunity. And I think you're right there. And then the last one kind of also came up today. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I can see that. And definitely from the people who went with you, can see that the first place we will see you go and talk about the idea of efficiency, for example, is Cousin Henry. Both Ireland and the rest of the world. Yeah, yeah, we can see that. And definitely from the people point of view, I can see the first place groups seem to go, you talk about AI driven efficiency, for example, is cutting end to it, both by the alarmist or as an opportunity. opportunities and I think right now. The last thing we have in effect also came out today, I know, And I think you're right. The last one also came up today, I've Thomas Warwick: I've been a vendor for many, many years, so vendors, don't feel like I'm kicking you or anything. But thinking about your vendors' and how they're going to, their vulnerabilities to this kind of disruption as well and changes to their models. If you look at the kind of competitive threat that a lot of those big vendors are going to be in, in an age where Nick Chubb: said I've for many, many years, vendors don't feel I'm being denigrated. But thinking about your vendors' responsibilities and how they're going to, their vulnerabilities to this kind of disruption as well, and changes to their models. If you look at the kind of competitive threat that a lot of those big vendors are going to be in in an age where I I said I've been in the bank for many many years so I've been in the staff room, I'm thinking you and everybody. But thinking about the offenders' responsibilities and how they're going to, their vulnerabilities to this kind of instruction, this kind of changes to their models. We looked at the competitive threat and a lot of those three offenders have been in the field. where A lot of them are sitting on these monolithic stacks with very old code bases that are very well documented and people use them and they give you that security but they're not most of them able to take advantage of the kind of AI and agenda size development. I'm working for one of the companies that I'm working for in the maritime possible that's entire software team because of AI agencies that are involved in the setting up of our testing but it means they've been moving through features. Thomas Warwick: a lot of them are sitting on these monolithic stacks with very old code bases that are very well... Nick Chubb: lot of them are on these monolid stacks with very old code bases that are very well documented and people use them and they give you that security but they're not most of them are able to take advantage of the kind of AI, the genesis size development and the jet agent kind of led the development. I'm working for one of the companies that I work for, the National Transport, some of the highest-level AI agencies that haven't been involved in the sale of the last estimate but it means they've been rude to me. Thomas Warwick: documented and people have used them and they give you that security, but they're not most of them able to take advantage of the kind of AI, a gentisized development, agent kind of led development. I'm working for one of the companies I'm working for called Maritime Passport, its entire software team is AI agents. There's people involved in the setting up of that and testing it, but it means they can move through features hugely quickly, you know. And so you're looking at your choices of vendors and working out, you know, it's not just about like, Nick Chubb: hugely quickly, you know, and so you're talking about choices of vendors and working out, you know, it's not just about like, And so you're looking at what choice you've made, you're working out things. It's not just about like, Thomas Warwick: Do I not want to have the option of going to this other one? It's like, will that company still be there? I mentioned to somebody earlier, the Adobe suite has just been copied by VibeCoding in its entirety. And I understand they've done it pretty well and made it available for free. So a lot of these people who've been sitting in these established models are under threat. So you've got to look and see what's the future for them and how are they responding to this kind of future as well to make sure that you're with people that are taking a similar view to you as well. Nick Chubb: do I not want to have the option of going to this other one? It's like, will that company still be there? I mentioned to somebody earlier, the Adobe suite has just been copied by vocoding in its entirety. And I understand they've done it pretty well and made it plan for free. So a lot of these people have been sitting in these established models around the trip. So you've got to look and see. do I not have the opportunity to go into this space otherwise? Will that company still be there? I mentioned to somebody earlier, the Adobe suite has just been copied by Flycoating in its entirety. And I understand they've it for the right of native data for free. So a lot of these people in the city, these established models, got onto it. So you've got to look and see what's the future for them and how are they going to spend their future as well. What's the future for them and how are they going to this point in future as well to make sure they're with people that could, you know, actually have a tankardous similar view to do as well? to make sure that you're people that can, you know, know, take them somewhere, because it is what I think. So to ask, I was actually going to for efficiency for Brazilian, I believe it's what, I'm excited. I believe that's the total false trust, because I think that going into a page where Brazilian stuff doesn't happen, that has a lot positive, the world's too. So to rather present into a choice of efficiency or resilience, I believe is wrong. I believe that's a totally false choice because I think going into an age where resilience has to become another one, the world is too much now, Thomas Warwick: So, Raoul presented you a choice of efficiency or resilience. I believe he's wrong, obviously. I believe that's a totally false choice because I think we're going into an age where resilience has to become the number one, The world is too uncertain, Nick Chubb: technology is too much. Thomas Warwick: technology is too uncertain, geopolitics is too uncertain. That I don't think you can afford to push for efficiency. I think it has to be. Making that, well, not even making the choice, you will be forced into resilience. Nick Chubb: I don't think we're going to fall out of the push for efficiency. I it has to be but I think it makes the choice for all students to consider that. So obviously, I have different idea, have a different choice of things, but I'm not going to it to you, the industry is going to go far. I don't think it's going to afford to push for efficiency. it has to. It will not make a choice. It will be forced into the zirconia. So obviously, I have a different idea about what the key choices need to be available by the industry to keep us from falling. You're taking quite an interesting position. You're not disagreeing with my choice. You're just saying the choice is obvious. Quite the same thing. Thomas Warwick: So obviously, I have a different idea about what the key choice is that needs to be made by the industry's leaders. on. Well, you're taking quite an interesting position. You're not disagreeing with my choice. You're just saying that the choice is obvious, which is not quite the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Nick Chubb: Well, you can tell me quite interestingly, actually, we're not listening very good by the audience. We'll be saying very good by the audience, not me as well. Not quite the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Thomas Warwick: But I... He does this to win, you know. I'm very competitive. He's good at putting up a straw man and then he can win, you see. That's the thing. You might think this will be obvious coming from me, but my... Nick Chubb: But, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very impressed. It's a bit of a bit of a straw man, and then, and then you say, that's the problem. You, you, you might think this will be a bit a bummer, but I made a It does this to win. I'm very convinced. You might think this will be obvious. My pitch on the big choice that industry leaders need to make is how will we transform your organisation to try in a post-colonial system. I think there's four key areas where that decision needs to be made. Thomas Warwick: pitch for the big choice that the industry leaders need to make is how will we transform the organization to thrive in a post-AI world? And I think there's four key areas where that decision needs to be really thought through. One, Nick Chubb: pitch for the mutuals, a mutual break, for the ones that are going to make it. is how the man must be transformed via conversation to thrive in a post-manual environment. And I think there's four key areas by that decision, means there's really four. One, Just to scene-set a little bit, there's been talk of Thomas Warwick: just to scene set a little bit, there's been talk of Nick Chubb: just to seem to it, but the other is that there's really four. us being in something of an AI bubble. A few weeks ago, was in a white-booth shop in the UK, and I saw an AI named the washing machine. And that was the point where I thought, OK, yeah, we are actually in a bubble. There is maybe too much AI going on. But I think where the bubble actually sits is on AI infrastructure. And I think that's a really well-thought-out. Thomas Warwick: us being in something of an AI bubble. A few weeks ago, I was in a white goods shop. Nick Chubb: I was in a white-pitch cup in the UK and I saw an AR and an Indian Russian machine and I had to find what I thought was the right thing to do. It was too much AI going on. Thomas Warwick: in the UK and I saw an AI enabled washing machine and that was the point where I thought, okay, yeah, we are actually in a bubble. There is maybe too much AI going on. But I think where the bubble actually sits is on AI infrastructure and I think that bubble may well pop, but Nick Chubb: But I think that above and actually since, it's not on the AI infrastructure. I think that's not been really well thought. But Thomas Warwick: the value of a general purpose technology accrues to the end users. And I think as end users in this industry, we are all end users of this technology. Nick Chubb: the value of technology accrues to the industry. And I think as end users in this industry, we are all end users of just technology. the value of the general technology has improved. Thank you so much. And I think that the end users of this industry, we all know that this is a technical technology. I think that now we're going to change fundamentally over next two or three years. And the choice is either to change the organization so that people can thrive in it, or to get less money. I think our work is going to change fundamentally over the next two or three years. And the choice is either to change the organization so that we can thrive in that. So let me give you the four areas where I think that those choices need to be made. The first is around leadership. Thomas Warwick: I think our work is going to change fundamentally over the next two or three years. And the choice is either to change the organization so that you can thrive in it or get left behind. So let me give you the four areas where I think that those choices need to be made. The first is around leadership. Nick Chubb: So let me give you the four areas where I think that those choices need to be made. The first is around leadership. Thomas Warwick: And I've sort of split leadership into two areas. One is executive leadership. The CEOs, managing directors, general managers, Nick Chubb: I've sort of split the leadership into two areas. One is executive leadership. The CPO is managing directors, general managers. So split leadership into two areas. One is executive leadership, the CTOs, management directors, general managers. They need to set the appetite for AI. Work out what are some of the red lines we're going to draw when we absolutely won't use AI, but when we want to make most of these tools and perhaps when we're not interested in those tools. And that direction needs to be clearly defined across the entire organization. Then you've got the board level. Thomas Warwick: they need to set the appetite. Nick Chubb: they need to set the appetite for AI and personalisation. So in the end, it's sort of workout. What are some of the red lines we're going to draw that we absolutely want to use AI, but when we want to make the most of these tools, and perhaps when we're not interested in using these tools. And that direction needs to be clearly communicated across the entire organisation. Then you've got the board level Thomas Warwick: for AI across the organization. So they need to sort of work out, what are some of the red lines we're going to draw where we absolutely won't use AI? But where do we want to make the most of these tools? And perhaps where are we not interested in using these tools? And that direction needs to be clearly communicated across the entire organization. Then you've got board level leadership that needs to be thought through. And there's kind of two things there. One is you need to make sure that you have people on the board who can support and challenge AI decision making. Nick Chubb: Now, that's the additional piece that be addressed. And there's kind of two things there. One is we need to make sure that we have people on the board today who can support, challenge AI. leadership, who needs to be comfortable with it. And there's kind of two things here. One, we need to make sure how people on the street can take on the challenge of being a black woman. I think a lot of boards today don't have the right skillset, don't have enough knowledge to be able to effectively do those kind of challenges. And also you need, with the EU AI coming into force this year, you do need people at the top of the organization with a sense of equal responsibility. I think a lot of points of effect don't have the right skills to make, don't have enough knowledge to be able to affect even a sense of that child. Thomas Warwick: I think a lot of boards today don't have the right skill set, don't have enough knowledge to be able to effectively make those kind of challenges. And also you need, with the EU AI Act coming into force this year, you do need people at the top of the organisation who will take legal responsibility Nick Chubb: And also you need to be aware of the importance of the responsibility of Thomas Warwick: for AI and what happens in the organisation for AI, and you need those people to have the right set of skills. So that's sort of my first area, is leadership. Nick Chubb: front-line. What happens when you land station from the front-line? I you need to be aware of the rising center speeds. That's sort of my first thing. Yeah, I I mean, I know what you're I think I know what you're saying. I'm not sure if there two things that boards need to really understand about how AI works to be able to do their governance job. Thomas Warwick: I know what you're saying. I'm not sure. Do you think that boards need to actually really understand how AI works to be able to do their governance job properly? To understand the risks? Is that where you're going? I think you should definitely be thinking of having someone on the board who really understands the tech and then making sure that everyone on the board has an understanding of the kind basic responsibilities. Because the counter argument I heard just on a session I was on the other week was that Nick Chubb: saying. I'm not sure. Do think the boards need to actually really understand how AI works to be able to do their governance job? To understand the risks? that where you're going? I think you should definitely be thinking of having someone on the board who really understands the tech and then making sure that everyone on the board has... Well, the sound risks, does that mean? I think you should definitely be thinking of having someone on the board of the radio stand for tech. And then making sure that everyone on the board has an understanding of the of things that are responsible for this. Because the council of him I heard just in a session I was on the other week, said, and understand the kind of basic responsibility. Because the counter argument I heard just on a session I was on the other week was that the board doesn't know how an engine works to be able to know that they need to help trucks, for example. So that's the county. I tend to agree even more that this is, I don't see how you do your governance jobs before you understand the risks if we don't at least have some appreciation. And I think that one of the reasons I say Thomas Warwick: A board doesn't need to know how an engine works to be able to know that they need to have trucks, for example. So that's the counter. I tend to agree with you more that I don't see how you could do your governance job as a board and understand the risks if you don't at least have some appreciation. And I think that one of the reasons I say Nick Chubb: the board doesn't know how we need to know how an engine works, and they're all going need to have trucks, for example. So that's the council. I tend to agree with you more that this is, I don't see how you can do your governance thoughts at all. You understand the risks, you don't at least have some of the instruction. And I think that one of the reasons I'll because I think that the technology itself is a horror movie. So you you're making a decision that has to account for a whole bunch of evolution. Yeah, and there are genuine legal consequences for having to get used as well. I think that basic thing everyone does have to understand, to be able to feel reconcile for something. that is because I think that the Thomas Warwick: that is because I think that the technology itself is evolving. you're making a decision that has to account for... Nick Chubb: technology itself is evolving. So you know, you're making a decision that has to account for a whole bunch of other mission. Yeah, and there are genuine legal responsibilities for how these tools get used as well. And I think that that basic thing, I everyone does have to understand that to be able to feel that they can sign off with something. Thomas Warwick: a whole bunch of evolution. Yeah, and there are genuine legal consequences for how these tools get used as well. And I think that basic bit, I think everyone does have to understand to be able to kind of feel they can sign off on something. Nick Chubb: You mentioned the second one, that's governance. Actually having a governance function in the organisation for artificial intelligence. You mentioned the second one, that's government. Actually having a governance function in the organization for artificial intelligence. Thomas Warwick: All right, so you've mentioned the second one, and that's governance. Actually having a governance function in the organization for artificial intelligence. About four five years ago, American Express, with their AI adoption plan, actually set up Nick Chubb: about four or five years ago, American Express, with their AR adoption, it actually set up About four or five years ago, American Express, with their AI adoption plan, actually set up a governance function first. And everyone comes up with a of break from adoption. it's really interesting, we have Christina on the panel earlier, who's the head of AI at Columbia, talking about the first thing she did when she was head of AI was add the chat to the fertility. And it feels like, governance feels like maybe it could be about supplicating the requirements and you're innovation and you're alteration. Thomas Warwick: a governance function first. And everyone kind of said, well, you're kind of putting the brakes on adoption. And it was really interesting. We had Christina on the panel earlier, who's the head of AI at Columbia, talking about the first thing she did when she came in as head of AI was ban chat GPT. governance feels like maybe it could be kind of suffocating, stopping innovation in the organization. Nick Chubb: a governance function first. And everyone kind of said, we're kind of the brakes on adoption. And she was really interested in, had Christina along in the pattern there, had Chris Ahenemayr, I looked at Columbia, and thinking about the first thing she did when she came in, she had to get out. And it feels like, government feels like maybe there could be a kind of supplicating stopping innovation in the organisation. Thomas Warwick: But what you need to do is set clear rules in the organization for how AI should be used. Nick Chubb: But what you need to do is set clear rules in the order of how I now ship a new one. So, alternatives are approved for you, and so that people know what's the kind of area that they can move on without demodars commissioning at time. But what you need to do is step clear boundaries in the organisation for how they should be used, what tools are appropriate for use, and so that people know what's the kind of area that they can move without doing an ask the question every time. Thomas Warwick: what tools are approved for use so that people know what's the kind of area that they can move within without having to go and ask permission every time. I think the example that I gave earlier about sort of like the the boardroom simulation of what happens, you know, when you have a data breach. I think that would pretty much cool anyone's order for AI, you know, that kind of gung ho CEO like, yeah, give everyone Claude, we're doing this, you know, like. Nick Chubb: I think the example that I gave earlier about sort of like the boardroom simulation of what happens when you have a data breach, I think that would pretty much be one the ones that's kind of... The example I gave earlier about the boardroom simulation of what happens when you have a data breach, I think that would pretty much fool anyone's part of AI, that kind gump hosty idea, give everything a call, we're doing this. a gumbo see yeah give them the cord you're doing this you know like until something bad happens but i think as it leadership we talked earlier about it leadership not being entirely responsible for ai but i think as it leadership we need to make sure that we are taking enough of a lead to go set the organization goes and how many ceos come back from bossa dona and say right you're an ai first that's where i challenge your question Thomas Warwick: until something bad happens. But I think, as IT leadership, we talked earlier about IT leadership not being entirely responsible for AI. But I think as IT leadership, we need to make sure that we are taking enough of a lead to kind of set where the organization goes. And how many CEOs come back from Macedonia and say, right, we're an AI-first organization? That's where I challenge your question, Nick Chubb: That's where I challenge your question because we're asking these guys to make a decision about what happens at the board and some of them are because you're asking these guys to make a decision about what happens at the board and then, you know, some of them are Thomas Warwick: because you're asking these guys to make a decision about what happens at the board. And some of them are Nick Chubb: at C level to the instant cliche, red light for all. That's a pretty, it's not, you're asking them to make a decision, which is entirely up ass. As someone responsible for IT in your organization, you can choose to proactively engage in that decision or you can choose for the CEO to do it. Thomas Warwick: C-level leaders, I appreciate, but not all. You're asking them to make a decision which is entirely out of their hands. As someone responsible for IT in your organization, you can choose to proactively engage with that decision, or you can choose for the CEO to do it. Nick Chubb: see you know what Venus is, appreciate it. That's a brilliant, it's not asking them to make a decision which is entirely out there. As someone responsible for IT in your organization, you can choose to proactively engage in that decision or you can choose for the CEO to do it. So that's my information to say you better off actively engaging with this issue. If that means you're not taking responsibility for managing up. Yeah. Thomas Warwick: And my inclination would be to say you'd be better off actively engaging with the decision, even if that means you're not taking responsibility for Managing up. Exactly, managing up. Yeah. Nick Chubb: I guess so governance is the rules that they can move. The third area is enable. So setting some kind of function in the organization and actually look at measuring the value of high line. And Peter Jackson, he gave our AIC keynote earlier today. Thomas Warwick: Okay, so governance is the rules that let you move. The third area is enablement. So setting some kind of function in the organization that actually looks at measuring the value of AI. Peter Jackson, who gave our AI keynote earlier today, talked about, on occasion, getting burned by the cost of tokens and his prediction that token costs are gonna go through the roof. You've got to actually have a function in place that genuinely measures whether you're getting a return on these investments. And it's not just about speed. Nick Chubb: talked about on occasion getting burned by the cost of tokens and his prediction of token costs are going to go through the roof. We've got to actually have a functioning base that genuinely measures the value of the term and the investments. And it's not just about speed, it's about speed and quality and the amount of time that has to into verifying the aduring and outwards. All of that sort of stuff should be taken in the elicitically. And then to tune with what gets built and what doesn't because you could do anything. Thomas Warwick: It's about speed and quality and the amount of time that has to go into verifying AI driven outputs. All of that sort of stuff should be taken in holistically. And then to choose what gets built and what doesn't, because you could do anything. Nick Chubb: And then there's a few... If you take it really at now, it's not as... Yeah, and this is where I think you might do a bit of a bit hit-or-miss road because you're trying to go over with an AI and then all the white... Yeah, and this is where I think in my experience, it's a rather huge road because you're trying to go into an AI that I know I like. Thomas Warwick: Yeah, and this is where I think in my experience the rubber hits the road, because you're trying to go in with an ROI case. Nick Chubb: And most of the time, there's very little tracking of how much time people are actually investing in. Like if you take CIFAR certification, you don't have to deal with it. I've been looking at it. And digitizing, you speak to everyone and everyone will tell you there are hours lost. We have to check these certificates and we have to go back to the fly to have them verified. And most of the time, it's very difficult to even know how much time people are actually investing in. You can take C-POS integration, you know that scenario, and digitize it. You just, everyone will tell you, hours and hours, you can't do that. Thomas Warwick: And most of the time, there's very little tracking of how much time people are actually in. Investing in my if you take see first certification, you know, that's an area. Yeah, I've been looking at And digitizing it you you speak to everyone and everyone will tell you there are hours lost as we have to check these certificates and we have to go back to the flag to have them verified it's a clear business problem, we know that there's efficiencies to be had there but no one's actually measuring how many hours specifically and who specifically and what goes on and and so when you try and build a Nick Chubb: is a clear business problem. know the efficiencies that we have there. No one's actually measuring how many hours specifically and who specifically and what goes on. And so when you try and build a case, a hard case for these savings that you could actually make against the investment, it becomes extremely difficult. And the same is true with my background in training and stuff. So I think the challenge there is like, how are you going to start with the measurement? Thomas Warwick: a hard case for the savings that you can actually make against the investment, it becomes extremely difficult. And the same is true in my background with training and stuff as well. So I think the challenge there is how are you going to start with a measurement and in actual fact that person could come into role and spend the next 12 months actually working out where people spend their time as it is. I remember doing some work for an advertising agency once. They know every second of every day they know because everything gets billed to a customer. Nick Chubb: In actual fact, that person would come into role and spend the next 12 months actually working out where people spend their time as it is. I remember doing some work for an advertising agency once. They know every single, every second of the day if they know because everything gets built to a customer. But But we don't do that in short weeks so it makes it harder. I do think on that, but we did a survey of a person who went to the report in the audience. We did a survey in a meeting that asked that question. Thomas Warwick: But we don't do that in shipping so it makes it hard, you I I do think on that so we did a survey in fact actually the person who authored the reports in the audience we did a survey earlier in the year that asked that question and I think the Respondents said one hour a week currently people are spending on average checking AI driven output, but netnet It is a productivity gain. Yes, the kind of self-reported stat, but that brings me on nicely to the fourth and final Nick Chubb: I think that the respondents said one hour a week currently, people are spending one hour per each checking that AI trick about with NetNet. It is productive today. That's the kind of sample that's at stake. But that brings me on nicely to the fourth and final That brings me on nicely to the full and final AI transformation that's happening. That's capability across the entire organization. To everyone in the organization, the AI skills, AI training, we have to know what good, what's not good. AI transformation that has to happen. That's capability across the entire organization. So everyone in the organization has to have AI skills, AI training, you have to know what good outcomes are. Thomas Warwick: AI transformation that has to happen and that's capability across the entire organization. So everyone in the organization has to have AI skills, AI training, they have to know what good output looks like, what bad output looks like Nick Chubb: And you have to have people in the organisation with proper facings plus a little extra so that they can help the rest of the organisation to roll it out. And that's where you've teed up very nicely our area of this arena between you. Thomas Warwick: and you have to have people in the organization who've got the basics plus a little extra so that they can help the rest of the organization to roll it out effectively. And that's where you've teed up very nicely an area of disagreement between us, isn't it? Because for me, Nick Chubb: And you have to have people in the organization who've got the basics plus a little extra so that they can help the rest of the organization to roll it out. And that's where you've teamed up very nicely in an area of disagreement between us, it? Because for me, Nick and I have had this conversation a lot about whether you need Thomas Warwick: Nick and I have had this conversation a lot about whether you should have a technology strategy which has AI as part of it, or whether you need to have an AI strategy. And obviously, it has to work with the technology strategy. I kind of waver around it, but one of the things I always come back to is there's something fundamentally different about AI that requires a different strategic approach, and it's where people are concerned. And it's normally because... Nick Chubb: a technology strategy which has AI as part of it or whether you need to have an AI strategy. And obviously, I take the opportunity for a moment It has to work with the technology system. And this, kind of waver around it. One of the things I always come back to is something fundamentally different about AI requires a different strategic approach. And it's where people are concerned. And it's normally because now, if I take the opposite view for a moment, or rather, I take your usual view, you're arguing for a different approach to capability of AI than for everything else. Thomas Warwick: If I take the opposite view for a moment, or rather I take your usual view, you're arguing for a different approach to capability for AI than for everything else. Nick Chubb: You're arguing for a different approach to capability and AI than for everything else. Now I'm a big believer in capability building efforts and that's why I've stopped talking about training and now I talk about capability building because I think it's looking at it as like they need the individual to perform, they need to equip that individual to perform and give them what they need. You know, I could argue Thomas Warwick: Now, I'm a big believer in capability building efforts and as way I've stopped talking about training and now I talk about capability building because I think if you look at it as like I need the individual to perform, I need to equip that individual to perform and give them what they need, I could argue. Nick Chubb: Now I'm a big believer in the idea of the end person. This way I've started talking about training and now I talk about capability because I think if you look at it, it's like I need the individual to perform. I need to recruit that individual to perform and give them what they need. You know, I could argue... why doesn't AI just fit into that the same way they need to know about how they should look at the SMX, how they should look at the firefighting procedures or how they should learn how to use Why doesn't AI just creep into that? And the same way they need to know how they can look at the SMS, how they can look at the firefighting procedures or how they should learn how to use Thomas Warwick: Why doesn't AI just fit into that in the same way they need to know about how they should look at the SMS or how they should look at the firefighting procedures or how they should learn how to use this piece of software? It's all part of one thing. But where I would argue against that is in the sensitivities that exist around AI. And it's about that fact that you're dealing with something that is itself learning and changing and growing. And it's displacing human. Nick Chubb: piece of software, it's not one dream. But where I would argue against that is in the sensitivities that exist around AI. And it's about that fact that we're dealing with something that is itself learning and changing and growing, and it's displacing human the hospital software, that's all part of one thing. The way I would argue against that is in the sensitivities that exist around their life. And it's about that fact that you're deeply in something that is itself learning and changing or growing and it's displacing on the human. activity Thomas Warwick: activity normally, or at least it's got to work in harmony. And so for me, I feel like that is an area that needs specialist engagement. And I thought it was very interesting that Columbia have taken that approach of having someone dedicated to AI in that very senior role, because I think it speaks to my instinct, which is that there's such a heavy people element here, it has to be part of a people transformation journey. Yeah, I agree to a point. Nick Chubb: activity normally that's the point of work in harmony and so for me I feel like that is an area of what it means specialist engagement I thought it's very interesting that Colombia is taking an approach of having some educated AI in that very senior role because I think it speaks to my instinct which is that there's such a heavy people that don't appear it has to be part of the people's transportation normally, or it needs to be able to work in harmony. And so for me, I feel like that is an area that needs specialists engagement. I thought it was very interesting that Colombia are taking an approach of having some the benefits of AI in that very senior role because I think it speaks to my instinct which is that there's such a heavy people in them here it has to be part of transfer of information you have picked. Yeah I think your I think your technology strategy to that should be flaccented around. Because it could be such fundamental technology and it's coming to us so quickly. think the risk of even putting an AI strategy out on its own and doing its own lecture, I think the best way to get it isolated on the rest of the organization is to be fundamental to the work that every organization does. Thomas Warwick: I think your technology strategy today should be centered around AI because it is such a fundamental technology, it is such a big change, and it's coming to us so quickly that I think you risk, if you put an AI strategy out on its own, under its own directorate, I think it risks sort of getting isolated by the rest of the organization. It is fundamental to the work that every organization does. Nick Chubb: technology strategy today should be sensitive around AI because Because it is such a fundamental technology, it's such a big change. It's coming to us so quickly. I think if you put an AI strategy out on its own, under its own direction, think it may be nice to make some other decisions. It's fundamental to the work that every organization does. So those are our two decisions. I'm curious to get thoughts from members of the audience. We've got to stand by. Which decisions? could be a comment to thank you for your question. a question down in the front row there. And you're asking, if you talk, you're going to be on the show. You're consenting. Thomas Warwick: So those are our two... Nick Chubb: So those are our two decisions. I'd be curious to get thoughts from members of the audience. We've got some mikes. Which decisions Thomas Warwick: Decisions I'd be curious to get thoughts from members of the audience on We've even got a mic. We've we've got spare mics which decisions it could be a comment doesn't have to be a question or it could be a Go on down in the front row there. Kelly will bring you a mic and you're just if you talk you're gonna be on the show Just just so you're aware You're consenting. I am consenting Darren from pulsar Nick Chubb: It could be a comment. doesn't have to be a question. Down in the front, you're bringing your line. And you're just if you talk, you're going to be on the show. You're consenting. For Thomas Warwick: so for me, I think it's the first part of Nick Chubb: me, think it's the first part of For me, think it's the first chart of Thomas Warwick: AI strategy is just what are we going to do? It's the governance piece is really asked to get tackled first. Everything underpins that. AI has access to all of your data once you start doing it. If you don't have the proper governance in place, then it's going to have data you might not want it to have. It's going to have data you might not have permissions to let it have. So you have contractual agreements upstream, contractual agreements downstream. And governance is that Nick Chubb: AI strategies. What are we going to do? It's the governance piece is really asking attacks first. Everything underpins that. anti-energy system programming that is the government's biggest step. It really has to be the first. Everything underpins that. AI has access to all of your data, which is our area. If you have an offer of governments and place... AI has access to all of your data. If you don't have the proper governance in place, then it's going to be the data might not want to have. It's going to be the data might not have permission to let out. So you have contractual agreements upstream, contractual agreements downstream. And governance is that, then it's going to have a different one now. It's going to have conditions to have. So you have contractual agreement subchain, you're actually having a subchain. And governance is that portion that needs to be done right. And something that in a non-initiative role, we only just rely on the supercomputer between our ears to decide, what's right, what's good, what's not. We're putting things from contracts into code. fortunately, needs to be done right. And it's something that can be done on a Mac. We always just rely on the supercomputer between our ears to... Thomas Warwick: that needs to be done right. And it's something that in a non-AI world, we always just relied on the supercomputer between our ears, you know, to decide, hey, what's right, what's good, what's not. We're putting things from contracts into code. It executes Nick Chubb: decide, hey, what's right, what's good, what's not. We're putting things from contracts into code. It executes over intelligence. And if we don't disallow something, it's likely to allow it. So I think that governance piece is probably in the AI strategy. The first place where rubber hits the roof needs to be done right is a custom in B2A in which we said, bedrock, building the ground up, take us up. Thomas Warwick: what we tell it to. And if we don't disallow something, it's likely to allow it. So I think that governance piece is probably in the AI strategy. Nick Chubb: And if we don't have to disallow something, it's like doing the law. So I think that a government speech is probably in the end, I challenge the first place where the government is supposed to use that idea. And say, it's not gonna be today, which is, it's that rock built to the ground about to take us. Thomas Warwick: the first place where the rubber hits the road that needs to be done right. It is a common theme today, which was bedrock, build from the ground up, take it slow. And I think that's a rare approach, although I think it's the right approach. I really enjoyed Peter Jackson, who earlier gave AI keynote. I think he had nine slides. The first seven were about how they've set the organization up for AI. And it was what he described as the kind of boring levers. Nick Chubb: I think it's a rare, it's a rare impression. I really enjoyed Peter Jackson's work on the A.I. keynote. I think you had nine slides. I think that's a rare, it's a rare opportunity. So I really enjoyed Peter Jackson's keynote. I think he had nine slides. The first seven were about how they've set the organization up. was what he described as the kind of four-week levers first set of people, about how they've set the organization up where they are in, was what we inspired was the kind of broadened leaders, governing one of the major up and down. And the last slide, I think is the right approach. Thomas Warwick: governance being one of the major ones of that. And then the last slide was, and this is how we use AI at C-SPAN, which I think is the right approach. Nick Chubb: governments could have been made to run the task, and the last slide was how I was going to set up the at CISP, which I think is the right, correct? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that I want to take away from an AI event I did in London last week was that whilst a lot of companies are putting their AI strategy or technology strategy, it includes AI together. People are just getting on and using it. There were seed bearers who are using it to do calculations and working spreadsheets in the process and stuff. And then there's a of a danger, you know, when people, companies put in policies, for example, and say, Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that I might take away from an AI event I did in London last week was whilst one of the companies in their AI strategy, technology strategy, because they are together, people are just getting on and using it, and they were seeing their risks. Thomas Warwick: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that my takeaways from an AI event I did in London last week was that whilst a lot of companies are putting their AI strategy or their technology strategy, which includes AI, together, people are just getting on and using it. And there were seafarers who are using it to do calculations, they're whacking spreadsheets in, they're processing stuff in there. Nick Chubb: who are doing calculations and working spreadsheets in the process and stuff in there. And there's a bit of a danger, you know, when people in companies put you in policies, for example, and say, you've Thomas Warwick: And there is a bit of a danger when companies put in policies, for example, and say, Nick Chubb: You can't use check to see anymore. You can't be banned in Florida. to make the use co-pilot. I'm not going to be so cruel, you may ask. But what then happens is people then email a file to their home computer, and they've got their own laptop, and they're doing their... You have to kind of... One of the cornerstones of strategy has to be around how you're going to do that. And I think the compromise that I've come to with you about this is it an AI strategy? Is it a separate form? Thomas Warwick: hey, you can't use Jack GPT anymore, or we're banning Claude, we're going to make you use Copilot. How can anyone be so cruel, you may ask. But what then happens is people then email the file to their home computer where they've got their own laptop, and they do it there. One of the cornerstones of the strategy has to be Nick Chubb: got to use jet engine anymore, you're going to make me use telepilot, not going to be so cruel, you know. But, you know, what then happens is people then email the file to their home computer, they've their own laptop and they do it there. You know, you have to find it. One of the corners that's been stressed to me has to be around how you're going to be able to lend them. And I think the compromise that I've come to with you about this is that the AI strategy is centred on Thomas Warwick: around how you're going to do that people element. And I think the compromise that I would come to with you about this, is it an AI strategy? Is it a separate or Nick Chubb: you the jobs and the IT strategies. Any leader that is responsible for AI needs to work out how they're going to build close alliances with the HR team, with the training department if they're involved in that, and actually kind of really be inclusive about how they kind of do that and to treat that mass seriously. And that goes up to boards as well. In my experience, boards are not typically obsessed with like such a feeling, how they've got a good HR leader in and they're like, as long as they eat. Thomas Warwick: an adjunct to the IT strategy? I think any leader that is responsible for AI needs to work out how they're to build close alliances with the HR team, with the training department if they're involved in that, and actually kind of Nick Chubb: adjuncts and like. Any lead-down that is responsible for AI needs to work out how they're going to build close alliances with the HR team, the training department and they're involved in that and actually really be inclusive about how they're going to do that offensive treatment. Thomas Warwick: really be inclusive about how they kind of do that and to treat that part seriously. And that goes up to boards as well. In my experience, boards are not typically obsessed with like touchy feely. How's the, you know, they put a good HR leader in and then they're like, as long as the Nick Chubb: And that goes up to boards as well. experience, I'm not simply obsessed with like, such a peeping house, you know, they've a good HR leader in and then they're like, there's obviously, E-M-P-S isn't too bad, they're kind of okay. If they have a lot of people leaving, yeah, that's fine. But in something like this, I think I would encourage them to actually say, I want to see that as part of plan. How are we going to move people to actually make this an interesting work and actually make it not be disruptive, counter Thomas Warwick: ENPS isn't too bad, they kind of okay. If they haven't got loads of people leaving, yeah, that's fine. You know, but in something like this, I think I would encourage them to actually say, I want to see that as part of the plan. How are we going to move people? Nick Chubb: E-NPS isn't too bad, okay, damn, not loads of people, E-NPS is fine, you know. But in something like this, I I would encourage them to actually say, I want to see that as well, as part of the plan. How are we going to move people to actually make this a bit more investment work, actually make it not be disruptive. Thomas Warwick: to actually make this investment work and actually make it not be disruptive, counter disruptive. I was having a private chat today with someone here about actually, we were talking about cyber security threats and he said, well, actually some of the worst ones are coming from inside. And I said, what do you mean? The people are maliciously doing stuff. He's like, no, they're just building dashboards and creating all these vulnerabilities that they don't even know they're creating because they're pulling dashboards together with all this kind of data and opening up all these pathways. don't know they're doing it, know, so because they have permission. Nick Chubb: disruptive, as having a client chat today with someone here. counter-destructive as I'm your guy today and someone here about actually cyber and doing that side of security threats. He said actually somebody who works with the insiders and what do you mean people are religiously doing somethings? I know they're just building dashboards and creating all these vulnerabilities that they don't even know they have. They think because they're putting testaments together in all this data and opening up. So again, it's like toward that deep education and you mentioned about actually talking about cyber security threats. And he said, actually, some of the worst ones are coming from inside. And so what do you mean people are maliciously doing stuff? said, no, they're just building dashboards and creating all these vulnerabilities that they don't even know they're creating because they're putting dashboards together with all this kind of data and opening up about it because they don't know they're doing it because they have it. So again, it's like with that deep education and you mentioned, Thomas Warwick: So again, it's like that deep education and deep, you mentioned Nick Chubb: I think you were kind of saying like superfood to some of the make-up ideas and that kind of thing that's attached to this as well and I think that's really definitely part of it. We can get values based on how you use it there. How do we think about data? What's happening possibly about it this year? It then starts to make better decisions when they're looking at very technical matters. Yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. Actually one of the interesting things about today for me was in multiple discussions, it wasn't just about IT. Thomas Warwick: kind of, think, I'll paraphrase, I think you were kind of saying about sort of good decision making and values and that kind of thing attached to this as well. And I think that's really definitely part of it. If you get values based behaviors in there, how do we think about data? What is our philosophy about what we share? It then starts to make people make better decisions when they're looking at very technical matters. Yeah. Nick Chubb: I think, a content called Parathraser. You're kind of saying about good decision-making and values and that kind of thing attached to this as well. I think that's really definitely part of it. If we get values-based behaviors in there, you how do we think about data? What's our philosophy of our leadership? It then starts to make make better decisions when they're looking at great technical matters. Yeah, yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. And actually one of the interesting things about today, and for me it was in multiple discussions, it wasn't just about IT, Thomas Warwick: Yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. And actually, one of the interesting things about today for me was in multiple discussions, it wasn't just about IT. Nick Chubb: actually the cure was getting in the net quite a lot for lots of Thomas Warwick: Actually, procurement was getting in the net quite a lot for lots of Nick Chubb: actually procurement was getting in the net quite a lot for lots of... Thomas Warwick: how IT contracting gets done. And latterly, on the AI debate, HR was coming up a lot, actually how you're going to manage the training and the rollout, which I think this becomes a sort of multifunctional, cross-functional question. Any more comments, questions from the audience? Nick Chubb: how IT contracting gets done. And that's the only way that the AI domain going to us. Actually, I think that the match and the training and rollout, which I think this becomes a multifunctional cross-functional question. Any more questions for me for this? how IT contracting gets done and and still actually on the the AI way a child's actually be able to manage the training in the role which I think it just becomes a sort of multi-functional cross function of a question. Any more comments questions? Thomas Warwick: Go on, pal. Kelly, could you grab? Nick Chubb: It's a tricky business label, right? Because in my thought also, if you handle that transformation, that's not also build resilience. So you are sort of both right in that part. We actually now have a digital strategy that does not explicitly say AI, but we say build resilience is part of it, because we have a lot of people, single, a lot of we have other aspects we need to tackle. It's a tricky technical statement, Because if combine all those things, if you have all the transformation... Thomas Warwick: It's a tricky question to say who is right because in my thought also is like if you handle the transformation doesn't that also build resilience? you are sort of both right in that part. We actually now have a digital strategy that doesn't explicitly say AI but we say build resilience as part of it because we have a lot of people, single dependent processes, we have cybersecurity, we have other aspects we need to tackle. Nick Chubb: but also build resilience. So you are sort of both right in that part. We actually now have a digital strategy that doesn't explicitly state AI, but we're still building resilience as part of it because we have a lot of people single the paneling and process it. have that. And security and other aspects with the tech platform. But at the same time I also say there to create value and also to use new technology. But at the same time, we're also staying there to create value and also to use the technology. Thomas Warwick: But at the same time, also say there to create value and also to use new technology. Nick Chubb: And if I say I'm going to use a new technology today, and AI is not part of that, it makes no sense at all, right? Because that's such a big part of the possibilities that are coming. So I sort of invented it in a way that I don't need to use it explicitly, I'm sticking with that in the future. Thomas Warwick: And if I say I'm going to use new technology today and AI is not part of that, it makes no sense at all, right? Because that's such a big part of the new things that are coming. So I sort of circumvented in a way that I don't need to use it explicitly, but at the same time do. Nick Chubb: And if I say I'm going to use new technology today and AI is not part of that, it makes no sense at all, right? Because that's such a big part of the new things that are coming. So I sort of circumvented in a way that I don't need to use it explicitly at the same time as you. And then it's more about having policies of things about how you use AI, right? It's a whole strategy of AI. But Thomas Warwick: And then it's more about having policies and things about how you use AI rightly than it needs an own strategy about AI. Nick Chubb: And that is more about having hypotheses and things about how you use AI directly, and that means that all the scriptology can come out of AI. Then Thomas Warwick: But then again, what is a strategy and what is a policy? Like these things also a bit interwined. So I find that a bit like, yeah, you know, you're both right in a way. Diplomatic answer. But your point about resilience is a good one. People kind of resilience is a really good one. Nick Chubb: then again, what is the strategy and what is the policy? These things also make people realize. I find that a bit like, yeah, you know, your voice, It's diplomatic answer. But your point about resilience is a good one. People, it's a really good one. again, what is the strategy? What is the problem? I find that a bit like, you know, the wood, right? Diplomatic answer. But you're working out with the other team, but there's there's a whole conversation we've had in time for about the use of digital twins in this. So I actually think in our time there is a huge, huge case for digital twins because we've so often been to poor people when they're on holiday because they're the only gate people, one piece of information of where are we at, what's going on with that account and the ability to be... and we're a global industry of ship management. I mentioned I represented ship management internationally. These people live... Thomas Warwick: And there's a whole conversation we don't have time for about kind of the use of digital twins in this, which I actually think in maritime, there is a huge, huge case for digital twins because we so often need to call people when they're on holiday because they're the only gatekeeper of one piece of information. And where are we at with that? And what's going on with that account? the ability to be, and we're a global, you know, industry, ship management. I mentioned I represent ship managers and inter manager. You know, these people live. Nick Chubb: a whole conversation you've got time for, and you can use additional twins in the previous, which I actually think about, there's a huge, huge case of using twins because we... So often these poor people when you're on holiday, you're the only gatekeeper of one piece of information, where are we at with that, what's going on with that, and the ability to get out of the global industry, the ship management, eventually those ship managers, and this people live, They sleep for a few hours a day, know, but most of the time they're called from all over the world, this global industry and being able to access a part of their brain, you know, the digital version of it is a really kind of really they sleep a few hours a day, most of time they're told to call for all of their needs in global industry, and being able to access part of their name, know, a digital person is a really fun effect. Thomas Warwick: they sleep for a few hours a day, know, like most of the time they're called from all over the world this global industry and being able to access a part of their brain, you know, a digital version of it is a really kind of a Nick Chubb: really good cosplay and it comes with a certain amount of risk in the cat's eye, but yeah that's a really good example of thinking about where do my people fit in here because I think that whilst digital shipping is becoming this great digital space Thomas Warwick: really good prospect, but it comes with a certain amount of risk which has to be maintained. But yeah, that's a kind of a really good example of thinking about where do my people fit in here? Because I think that whilst shipping is becoming this great digital space, Nick Chubb: good prospect. It comes with a certain amount of risk which has to be maintained. But yeah, that's a kind of a really good example of thinking about whether my people are fitting here, because I think that whilst shipping is becoming this great digital space. So much of it still from a data perspective is analog and it's in people's brains and we're putting ourselves at huge risk there. So it's not just technology resilience as we say, it's in so many people. I was chatting yesterday and I did a so much of it still from a data perspective is analog and it's in people's brains and we're ourselves a huge risk there so it's not just technology resilience as we say it's also about people. Thomas Warwick: So much of it still from a data perspective is analog and it's in people's brains and we're putting ourselves at huge risk there. So it's not just technology resilience as you say, it's also about the people. I was chatting yesterday at dinner to Nick Chubb: that's not one of those. it's very special role in the organisation. sort summer line for a university. They have a very specialist role in the organisation and Thomas Warwick: someone who's a head of IT at a shipping company and they have a very specialist role in the organization. Nick Chubb: And they were saying that it didn't happen that way. trying to build up, which is what's going on, through this very complex novel that do. Thomas Warwick: And they were saying that they did exactly that. They were trying to sort of build out a digital twin for this very complex role that they do. Nick Chubb: they were saying that they did exactly that which I'm trying sort build out of digital twin through this very complex and all that they do. And they said, well, how do you train people? people are kind of sick and train people. He's worked at company for 25 years, and he's worked 25 years working in England. 90 % of his job goes by email. So he's about 25 years of email from TILA. He did a pretty good job. And now you're opening up the whole kind of surveillance culture that I'm fascinated Thomas Warwick: And I said, well, how do you train them? Is the person going to sit there and train the AI? And he said, no, he's worked at the company for 25 years, and we've got 25 years worth of email. And 90 % of his job goes by email. So all of that 25 years of email went in, and he did a pretty good job. And now you're opening up the whole surveillance culture that I'm fascinated Nick Chubb: And I said, how do you train people? And stick them in a training environment. He said, you he works for 25 years and he's got 25 years of email. 90 % of his job goes by email. So, he's 25 years of email, I'd say. And did a pretty good job. And then daddy wrote me up here, the whole kind of surveillance culture that I'm working in. by this kind of because it's so many such a difficult choice because there were so many benefits you know like by. Because it's such a difficult choice, because there are so many benefits. Thomas Warwick: by in this kind of, because it's such a difficult choice, because there are so many benefits. Nick Chubb: if you wanted to collect the details by asking them to put the information together like everyone in shipping is so kind of by playing it's strong and so operational there's no way that they have to go to document anything even if they were happy to potentially meet the fact you know and respect and be with players so the only way you can ever do it would be through kind of know ingesting vast amounts of contextual information off of what they do and If you wanted to create a digital twin by asking them to move the information, forget it. Everyone in shipping is so fan of 5-waying and strong-ass and so operational. There's no way they're ever going to document anything, even if they were happy to potentially be able to take that prospect to a new place. So the only way you could ever do it would be through ingesting fast amounts of contextual information. And Thomas Warwick: If you wanted to create a digital twin by asking them to input the information, forget it. Everyone in shipping is so firefighting and strung out and so operational, there's no way they're ever going to document anything, even if they were happy to potentially have the specter of being replaced. So the only way you could ever do it would be through ingesting vast amounts of contextual information from what they do. And that opens up. Nick Chubb: And that opens up that opens up Thomas Warwick: lots and lots of exciting human IP issues, which we've covered on the podcast as well. I think we are unfortunately rapidly running out of time. We always like to try and agree a little bit in these conversations. I think, pal, you've done that for us. I think you're right. The choice to transform the organization for AI will help to build resilience. So maybe we're both right. Nick Chubb: lots of months of exciting human IP issues which we've covered on the podcast as well. I think we are unfortunately running out of time. We always like to try and agree little bit in these conversations. think Alan you've done that for us. I think you're right. The choice to transform the organisation of AI will help us to build resilience. So maybe we go. lots and lots of exciting... human IP issues which we've covered on the podcast. I think we are unfortunately not practically running out of time. We always like to try and agree a little bit in this conversation. think Al you've done that for us. I think you're right the choice to transform the organization for AI will help to build the Zippe system. So maybe we both. Yeah I think we are. think there's not you know like with all these things there's not Yeah, I think we are. think there's not, you know, like with all these things, there's Thomas Warwick: Yeah, no, I think we are. I think there's not, like with all these things, there's not Nick Chubb: There's not one way of doing it. I think that the choices that we are not always in your hands to do it. But I think that forcing these kind of discussions with those that you collaborate with, pushing up some of these kind of getting those things surfaced that are in your mind is always a good idea. Thomas Warwick: There's not one way of doing it. And I think that the choices that we are not always in your hands to do it. But I think that forcing these kind of discussions with those that you collaborate with, pushing up some of these kind of getting those things surface that are on your mind is always a good idea. Nick Chubb: not one way of doing it. And I think that the choices that we are not always in your hands to do it. But I think that forcing these kind of discussions with those that you collaborate with, pushing up some of these kind of getting those things surfaced, that are in your mind, is always a good idea. And always keep the receipts, because when they close tits up, you hear me say, I was right. Thomas Warwick: And always keep the receipts because when it goes tits up, you can at least say, I was right. Nick Chubb: And always keep the receipts, because when they come to tips up, they say, I was right, didn't I? And that's some small comfort in this world, I think. Well, that note, thank you all so much for coming and listening. Thank you to everyone at home who's tuning in. This has been On Doc Live. Thank you. Thank you. Thomas Warwick: And that's some small comfort in this world. I think you're Well on that note, thank you all so much for coming and listening. Thank you to everyone at home who's who's who's tuning in Yeah, has been undock live. Thank you. Thank you Nick Chubb: That's some small confidence well I think in front. Well on that note, thank you all so much for coming and listening. Thank you to everyone at Home this who's tuning in. This has been Undocked Live. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, yeah. And I'm going to spend some easy.