Latest / We Can Do Better / A Minister and a Rabbi Walk Into a Podcast . . .
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- Fran Quigley: Welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. My name's Fran Quigley. I'm a law professor. I go with my students every week to eviction court. There we represent some of the millions of people in our country who are facing the loss of their homes. Many of them also skip filling prescriptions, and some even go hungry despite living in the richest nation in the world. We can do better. Other countries already do far better. In the United States has often done better in the past. So this podcast lifts up the many people and organizations who are working to make housing, healthcare, and a decent life enforceable human rights for all. Now, religion has a huge impact on our US society. Some of that impact comes directly through the tens of millions of people who are actively engaged in congregations. And some of that impact is felt less directly through the enormous influence that religious traditions and values have on our society. Very much including how we should be treating our neighbors who are struggling with housing, health care, food, and safety. But we also know that if misused, religion can be a polarizing force, politically, racially, economically. Can we have the good while avoiding the bad? I can attest from personal experience and observation that our guests today prove the answer is yes, in part because they, two of them, work together so effectively across faith traditions. So we welcome today Reverend David W. Green Sr., a senior pastor of Second Baptist Church's Purpose of Life Ministries in Indianapolis, and the president of the legendary civil rights organization Concerned Clergy of Indianapolis, and Rabbi Dr. Aaron Spiegel, who's the executive director and president of the Greater Indianapolis Multifaith Alliance, known by his acronym GEMA. Both Pastor Green and Rabbi Aaron devote their talents and their energies and their connections to In particular to the cause of people struggling to get housed and stay safely housed. And not at all coincidentally, both are personal heroes of mine. And I think you will find them as inspiring as I do. Pastor Green, Rabbi Aaron, welcome to the show. Aaron Spiegel: Thank you, Fran. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Thanks, friend. Glad to be with ya. Glad to hang out with Rabbi. Fran Quigley: Well, we appreciate it. You all do that a lot, but we appreciate you doing that on the show this time. So I thought I'd begin by asking you to each to describe separately. First, Pastor Green, talk a little bit about Concern Clergy and and to Aaron talk about Gima, Greater Indianapolis Multi Faith Alliance. You know, what are the missions of the organizations? What's the history? Who are members? What are the priorities? You know, what is it you're doing in in concern clergy first, pr Pastor Green? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Well, thanks for that question, Fran. The Concerned Clergy of Indianapolis was born out of the civil rights movement. So it's always been an organization built around advocacy. Now that advocacy is around housing, healthcare, education, public safety, a number of key issues that impact citizens here in the state of Indiana, particularly central Indiana. While the title, Concerned Clergy of Indianapolis, may imply that it's just preachers that are members of reality it's not it's not limited to clergy. We have people like yourself, others that are members of the organization, a number of elected officials, business owners, just really concerned citizens who share in this. you know, so certainly while there are clergy members, so there'll be members who do pray and preach and serving capacities. But most importantly, we just believe at the core that our faith is something where we should be speaking up at times, that we cannot be silent. Our responsibility shouldn't end with the benediction in a particular service, whatever because we still have different faith traditions that are members of the concerned clergy. So we're there to be advocates. Homelessness is one of them. Housing is one of them. You know, voting access is is gonna be at the forefront there. And most recently would be the situation there in Gary, Indiana, where they're still struggling to get the lights on. Fran Quigley: Right. And and listeners who are who may not be from the Indianapolis area, but I this has unfortunately been national news about how the power has been out for so long in Gary, Indiana. But the Pastor Green and concerned clergy held a press conference and and demanded that the the the governor and the the state and federal government take much, much more quick action and and recognize the urgency involved. that's a great example of of of the work that you do. I appreciate that. So Aaron, what what about Gima? Aaron Spiegel: Gima was actually birthed out of a research project out of NYU way back on civil dialogue. in the secular world. And the great rabbi Steve Guto said, Hmm, I wonder if we can do if we could do this with religious leaders, might that make its way to the general public. and Steve's idea they They took that as part of the project. And Steve's idea was to see these initiatives in certain cities. San Antonio was the first. we're a year behind, we're the second. So this was in 2018. and really the what came from that was we want to flip the 30 plus year old interfaith narrative of we're all the same, why can't we get along? To my version is we love each other because of our differences, not inspired them. and the the historical interfaith position has, whether intentionally or unintentionally, excluded some groups, most notably the black church and evangelicals, because the message they got was You're telling me I have to change me to be in a relationship with you. And and that just it's never sat well with me. so we launched this thing, I guess officially in 2020. in twenty nineteen a group of about ninety religious leaders met to pick a social justice issue. And there was no second place to evictions. It was no there was Fran Quigley: Mm. Aaron Spiegel: never There was no doubt. I I don't think it's a coincidence that Matthew Desmond's book had come out just before that, but Indianapolis until recently was second in the country for evictions. Total evictions, not per capita behind New York City. and this was the housing is a pressing issue in the city. Post COVID, we finally got our feet on the ground. we changed our model so we don't have members. I I don't like the the membership model. so we say any congregation in the city and the greater Indianapolis area is automatically a member. and if people want to participate in the work we do, that's great. sort of they s they sort of self select. It's not a very good fundraising model, I'll tell you. But Fran Quigley: Yeah. Aaron Spiegel: we we I'd like to think we're values based and one of the values is hospitality and you don't have to pay to to be in in relationship with us. I'll sum this up First and foremost, we're about relationships. We want to move from the transactional to the relational. Too much of our work in this social justice world is transactional. And then we use those relationships. I guess that's kind of a transaction, but we use those relationships to do advocacy work. And for us, advocacy looks like we have to change the laws in Indiana. We just have to, or we have to get some laws. tenants have no enforceable rights in Indiana. And it became really clear to me several years ago that evictions and homelessness are at root the same issue. One is just the out extension of the other. evictions are a direct pipeline to homelessness, at least in central Indiana. So as One of my dear friends says there are no silver bullets, it's all silver buckshot. We gotta do it all. I don't have to do it all, but we we need to be focused on the Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Yeah. Aaron Spiegel: systemic, if we're ever gonna change the system. Fran Quigley: Hmm. So I I want to ask a question. The it sounds like the start of a joke, right? The Baptist minister and the rabbi get together. and I've known you all and for for quite some time. I don't know the answer to this question. And I think our listeners would want to know what was that first conversation like where the two of you discussed met each other and and discussed the what turned out to be an awful lot of shared priorities and and and shared mission. Do you remember? Aaron Spiegel: You know, I knew you were gonna ask Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: I don't Aaron Spiegel: I knew you were gonna ask this. I don't remember. I don't actually I don't remember a time before David Green. So I now we've actually known each other for 20 years. he doesn't remember this, but I I remember it well. When I was at the Center for Congregations, it was Second Baptist, that was way back. And I worked with the church then. But I can't tell you the moment where we said, let's work on homelessness together. It just it was it was a God thing. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Right. I do remember Aaron. Aaron came out. He was working with IT. So he helped us with our infrastructure initially at Second Baptist when we moved here to Kessler. So that's where we first met. That I don't remember the other pieces of it. I think we were just shared spaces together and the relationship just evolved. Like, okay, we're at some of the same meetings, hearing some of the same stuff, having conversations. And I think it wasn't like, well, we'd made a decision. I think it just kind of naturally evolved. And I am a huge proponent, have always been of collaborations. So as you saw a number of things, whether it was hate crimes and trying to get that stuff through, I always felt like we're gonna be stronger together than apart. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. What did you have you found, not to be negative about it, but but I think Aaron talked about differences exist. have you have you found obviously you've got lots of overlapping priorities and we're going to talk a little bit about the work that you're doing, but have you found that there's areas of differences that you that you need to acknowledge and and either either work through or work around? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Not from my point. I mean, I just feel like okay, we're focused on the work. We're focused on helping people. So it's not about what we are differences, is about there's a number of things we share in common. Let's focus on that. Human Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: dignity, the the housing, the evictions. And so, you know, we're focused on what we have in common and making a difference. and understanding that, not in terms of, hey, we gotta be the same. We can be unified working together without uniformity. It's just let's just go do the work, let's get the work done and understand that our value is in working together. Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, I'll I'll echo that. It's again, it's it's a relationship. he we are friends. yeah, we have differences, but so what? And I think one of the things that brought us together is we're both focused on values, equity, justice, and not as talking points. It's just part of who we are. So we can talk about the differences stuff, but it really doesn't matter. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Aaron Spiegel: the the work we're doing is is far more important than who we are. and that's one of the things I like about Pastor Green is he can stay laser focused on on the work actually better than I can. And he's Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Aaron Spiegel: far more eloquent about it. without the distractions of that the rest of the world is trying to lift up to tear us apart. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Fran, I want to add that, you know, for me, like, since I'm not Jewish, rabbi is my go to. Hey, help me understand this. Help me understand the perspective on this so I can be better informed. I love Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: that. You know, okay. I didn't grow up as with a Jewish background. Rabbi is my go to guy because of our relationship to understand what's going on around the world and you know what may be going on nationally. to have a a perspective and you know while so many people are working on how do you divide people, I'm much more of a unifier like, okay, let's better understand each other. So having that relationship to me is extremely valuable. Fran Quigley: Well and listen to you, you talk about asking questions rather than making assertions about what you know, as as a longtime community leader, you certainly would be well justified in saying, Here's what I think or here's what needs to happen and instead you're asking humbly asking questions of your colleague. That's that's a great lesson for all of us right there. Aaron Spiegel: It is. Fran Quigley: So I want to talk a little bit about the work, because you all are focused on the work, as you've said. And you can you talk about the different projects if you want to or the overarching position as as Rabbi Aaron already mentioned that ev eviction work, eviction court work, eviction advocacy, or anti-eviction advocacy has been part of it. But also you all in the last few years, I think of you all as being just so impactful on behalf of our homeless neighbors in our community and beyond. So do you want to talk a little bit about that maybe to start with, what what you have done together in terms of both advocacy and service to to the benefit of our homeless neighbors. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Rabbi, you can start. Aaron Spiegel: One of the things that that really unifies us is we are this is a public thing, I can't say dirty words, but we are we are the the P in the mattress for some of the systems that that we don't think works. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Aaron Spiegel: homelessness is a complex problem. But it's a solvable problem. And we both realized really was around bringing the the first time the movie came to Indianapolis beyond the under the beyond the bridge of solution to homelessness, that and that really was kind of a catalyst moment, it's been two years now that that we could use that as a rallying point to to force change in the systems 'cause we really need to change the system. it's not as simple as just saying, well, homeless people need to be housed 'cause it's a it's a system that's designed to keep people poor and unhoused and it Fran Quigley: Right. Aaron Spiegel: and and we gotta change the system. Fran Quigley: And if I could the the the documentary you referred to, Beyond the Bridge, Solutions to Homelessness, it's I believe available online, was filmed in Indianapolis. And you've shown it many times in the community. I don't know if it's available. Aaron Spiegel: No. It it was across the country about what cities have actually solved. Fran Quigley: I'm sorry, the the second version. Yes, thank you. Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, the first movie Under the Bridge was about Indianapolis. and speaking of which I think Don Sawyer is one of the people that, at least for me, said, Hey, you need to be talking to Pastor Green Moore. So, th there's a point of connection. Fran Quigley: And Don Sawyer is the director, filmmaker. I'm not sure exactly the title, but he's the creative Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, producer. Fran Quigley: creative voice behind the those two documentaries. Okay. Aaron Spiegel: And we're we're really blessed that he lives in Indianapolis. So this is his backyard. He wants he wants things to work. So I totally forgot what the question was, so that's Fran Quigley: The the question was how how you came together on Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Yeah. Fran Quigley: on on homelessness solutions and and as you say, challenging broken systems that are perpetuating homelessness. Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, I'll just finish by saying I think it's our frustration at what's our famous line? It shouldn't be this hard. It shouldn't be this hard. We say that to each other a lot. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Pastor Green, is that I don't want to just Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Yeah, I mean I'll Fran Quigley: go ahead. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: well I would just add, you know, you know, so we're involved in a feeding on Sundays there. we joined Ace who who's doing a feeding, had been doing a feeding on the corner of Alabama and Washington Street to actively, you know, engage, support people, see these homeless people, let them know they're being seen. trying to bring resources to them, trying to combat a system that would probably want to see that shut down. so the all of that is part of our working together, I think, because Rabbi and I at least we share the belief that everybody deserves dignity. And so we're working hard to do that while other people in part of the system don't necessarily feel that way. So we actually see the people, we're seeing their challenges. We're not going on some presentation somewhere, some of the stigmatizing things that may be said and thought about people who have found themselves unhoused. We're trying to confront that. We're trying to be, wait a minute, this is what really going it could be healthcare, it could be related, you know. We need systems that will actually engage the people. We need outreach to show up and really help. We we need the city not to be like, well, we need to shut that down, but we need to f this city that says, How do we continue to build this up and help our unhoused brothers and sisters? And so those are the reason we say it should be that hard is it seems logical on one side. But then when you witness it, it's like it's a constant battle on the other side. For some of the most simplistic things to take place, you'd be like, Why wouldn't we just do this? And it's almost like somebody's bent over backwards to to go the opposite direction, to make it harder. Fran Quigley: And I I wanna emphasize what you said about Ace. Ace is a formerly homeless man himself who has created this amazing program every Sunday we're feeding hundreds of people. And and both Pastor Green and Rabbi Aaron are are intimately involved in that and directly hands on and present for that. Which I'm it kind of leads to my next question. I mean, how do you find Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Yeah. Fran Quigley: the the intersection of advocacy and service? We're we're blessed with a lot of people who listen to this podcast, who read the Substack newsletter, who are themselves advocates or and or sometimes they're themselves service providers. But a lot of folks feel that they have to and maybe professionally they don't have a choice but to choose a lane. I mean if they're gonna be a service provider or I'm gonna be an advocate. You all do both. I mean, how do you find the two in relation to each other? Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, I don't quite understand that sometimes, Fran. Service doing service work, you're automatically doing advocacy. And I think it's less of a conscious, it's less of a an action change than it's a consci consciousness. so by going down to actually sometimes it's just to talk to homeless people, that's an act of service. It's also an act of advocacy. Being seen both by the people themselves and the community at large. I mean, I'm not shy to say one of the reasons that we started going regularly is because we knew there were powers that be that wanted to shut it down. And if we were there, it would be much harder for them to shut it down. So we're doing service and advocacy at the same time. I think a lot of people get confused in advocacy. They confuse advocacy with lobbying. So and I do both, because we have to change laws in Indiana. You don't have to do that to be an advocate. Fran Quigley: Well, what do you what do you say to and maybe this is a question of Pastor Green for the folks who say if I if I am an advocate, if I speak up, I'm going to lose access to grant funding. I'm gonna lose access to I'm not gonna be invited in the rooms th where people of power and influence are gonna be sitting around the table if I call them out. And to be honest, I think it's the right question to ask you, Pastor Green, because I've never known anyone who, if I'm not mistaken You're on the mayor's leadership council on homelessness, the president of the blue blueprint council to end homelessness, yet you also call out the mayor very publicly and somehow manage to still be welcomed in those rooms. You know, how how do you how do you achieve that balance? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: I think it comes down to just you you count the cost of what you're doing. If you believe in it, I think you just stand on it. You know, for me I have my own, you know, principles and I certainly believe in the dignity of every individual. So I can't sleep at night just like, okay, yeah, just let those people be homelessness. Let's just shut this stuff down. Let's just, you know, move towards criminalization and watch that happen and not say anything. Now, does that mean There are grants and other things that you're not gonna get. Yeah, that's true. There's cause some people are going to some people will look at Rabbi and I. They don't know how great a guy we are, friend. That we really are nice guys. But they Fran Quigley: Well, once they listen to this podcast, we'll fix that. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: so what's happened is they they they you know, they hear things and they see this, like why are they doing this? But at our hearts is we're trying to help people who are suffering. And our while we're coming from different faith traditions, we know at the core we're supposed to be helping these people that are suffering. We shouldn't just be sitting on the sideline and you know doing what would be best, quote unquote, that would get us the most money. We need to be to stand up for the least of those. And we're willing to stand up for the least of those. And at the core, that's that's who we are. That's the consistent thing that you'll see, whether it's at eviction court, whether it's, you know, homelessness at a feeding, whether it's going to the Capitol to make a statement, whether it's to address some things publicly, because we're not going to get there without speaking truth to power. And that truth to power does it have consequences? Sure. I'm sure there are meetings being held that there was no way Rabbi would be invited to. Okay. But that doesn't keep us from doing the work that needs to be done. And, you know, I just believe that other doors will open or whatever and you'll get an opportunity to share. But 'cause it's really not about us, it's about the people that we're advocating for. Fran Quigley: Great. What do you say to that, Aaron? Aaron Spiegel: You know, I I I a hundred percent agree. And it's one thing for religious leaders to to talk about being principles led. And I I can hear other people going, Well, I'm not gonna risk my funding or this, I'm not gonna risk alienating this important person. But my answer to that is why not? at what point And this is a r this is a rhetorical question because I don't know. At what point do people decide this is enough, and I'm not gonna stand for this nonsense anymore, and I'm gonna say something. I also want to say that advocacy and activism have become different things. we're an advocacy organization, not an activism organization, and I and I make the distinction because advocacy work isn't always the public protests and getting up in people's faces. I actually think that's not very effective. Advocacy is relationship based. And I can say with a fair amount of certainty that that I have friends in the Indiana legislature who are not in agreement with the things that I'm trying to do. So we can disagree and still be friends and we can still have a conversation. That's advocacy. I I think it's a it's a lost art, not advocacy, but the ability to have a conversation with somebody with whom I disagree and stay friends. It's like we can we can hash this out, and I don't have to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. I can just say what I am. But the relationship stays. I think a lot more people can do that without risking their funding or making people mad. Now I think Fran Quigley: You agree? Aaron Spiegel: we intentionally make people mad, but that works out that way. Fran Quigley: There may be some listeners very surprised to hear that because again, both of you are are not shy. You're not personal in your attacks on people in power in s institutions, but you are not shy about saying when they're failing. And and you know, and and clearly you're articulating here what what you see as the balance between being personally attacking as opposed to Saying do your job and do your job on behalf of those who are most impacted by the decisions you make. Aaron Spiegel: Yeah. I th I think principles over personalities. I can attack somebody's position without attacking them personally. Fran Quigley: I so I have a a question that's kind of circled back to to r religion and and and you both said you're just not that concerned with with the differences, but there the whether it's been said that the the hour when folks are in worship over the the course of the weekend is the most segregated hour of the of the week. And do you do you and if that's true, which I I do think the data bear that out. You know, does that matter? 'Cause I think what you're saying is that on maybe Sunday mornings folks are in different places, but Sunday midday you come together to feed our unhoused neighbors, right? And during the week you convene and go to the state house and and go to the meetings and and pull folks together from different faith congregations. So does it does it matter that folks of of different races and backgrounds are are not necessarily are are rarely worshipping together? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Fran, I think the greater question isn't so much who we worship on Sunday morning. It's who we're willing to stand with on Monday morning. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Are we willing to have the relationships to stand together Monday morning or Sunday afternoon, whatever? that's the one I think people need to struggle with and answer for themselves. Am I willing to build some relationships outside of quote unquote my worship experience? Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. That's that's incredibly well put. Rabbi Aaron Spiegel: Yeah, I c Fran Quigley: Erin, how do you follow that? Aaron Spiegel: I can't. except to say that a lot of going back to advocacy, sort of intercommunity or yeah, intercommunity advocacy has been transactional. I'll support you for this if you support Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Aaron Spiegel: me for that. And that bothers me. I don't think it works either. It's like we're allies because we're friends and I'm gonna support you no matter what. And if you are able to support me on this, then you will. And I think that I as Pastor Green said is far more important than where we spend Friday evening, Saturday morning, or Sunday morning together in worship. Fran Quigley: Very well put. let me conclude. I want to be mindful of your time and conclude with a a big picture question. you know, we mentioned all the tens of millions of people who do go to some a member of a congregation actively involved go to some kind of services on the like you say, Friday night, Saturday night or Sunday morning. But many, many people don't, and including a lot of young people who don't, and some of them are suspicious of and and maybe even been harmed in their past From a connection to faith communities. You know, what what would you say to those folks who share your values and and what you want to do to change our communities and bring more justice and and service to to our communities and to our country, but who have concerns about faith communities and maybe just don't feel really connected to that part? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: I would say we don't have to believe alike in order to love our neighbors and do what's well what I what I could define as right. I I mean I think I see that as a separate issue 'cause people could have been wounded, they have their story. And I don't minimize their story. The question is, can we still stand together about evictions, homelessness, poverty? If we can stand together, then let's stand together, or whatever that issue may be. I don't think that somebody has to become like me in order for us to work together. And I think that's what makes Rabbi and I's relationship, he doesn't have to become a Christian. I don't have to become a Jew for us to work together to help our community and people. The focus is on helping and loving, being a demonstration of loving our brothers and sisters. And when I think when we do that, we model our faith, if you will, without trying to make a faith statement, have somebody join it. I think that's more important. Aaron Spiegel: Kind of f flip flip it a little bit, Fran, because Pastor Green nailed it. they don't have to join a faith community to to have the same values that we do. And at the same time, the faith community is really the only community who has a moral and ethical mandate. We're commanded Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Okay. Aaron Spiegel: to take care of those with less. My favorite Dr. King quote is too many people are religious in their creeds and not enough in their deeds. So what what we do as a religion, as a expression of our religion, I for me is far less important than what we do as a human being. So if folks don't want to join a church or join a mosque or join a synagogue, okay, whatever. but at some point for me. I need the the faith perspective of the connection to all. You know, created in the image of God, the least of us. That works for me. If it works for somebody else, great. If it doesn't, I don't care. Come join us. We need to make things better. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: And I think the Fran Quigley: That's great. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: I think the feeding program is a an example of that, Rabbi, because we don't know who all's bringing the food. We we don't know all the people who are volunteering, bringing clothes, whatever, donating, but they have a shared love for their neighbors, right? Aaron Spiegel: Right. And and I think the other thing that's that's great a great example about community is it's not our program. It's ACEs. We're really clear that we're there to support him. And the efforts that that we take are to keep him supported so he can do his work. Fran Quigley: And that embodies the nothing about us without us, right? Because Ace himself has has lived that that life and and known these folks and and obviously there's a great amount of of trust and understanding as a result. And it's a a real sign and and real tribute to you all in your humility of not saying this I I need to stamp purpose of life ministries or concerned clergy or Gima on on this on this actual succeeding program, but it succeeded even more because you're humbly coming alongside him as opposed to trying to take over. Aaron Spiegel: And that's the collaboration that doc that Pastor Green talked about that we just don't have enough of. Fran Quigley: him. Well, I wanna be mindful of your time. Is there anything that you would like I know there's a lot to say, but is there anything you'd like to add before we adjourn here that we didn't cover? Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: No, I just say relationships are extremely important. I mean, we face a lot of challenges. Apparently we're gonna face a lot more coming. Relationships is why you will stand together. You can't just get there with just transactions. That's not gonna work. We really do need each other as a faith community, and we need to work together, and that relationship is key. Aaron Spiegel: And to to bounce off that, it's hard, it's slow, it takes a long time. These aren't quick fixes. Relationship-based work is is slow. to trust somebody takes a while. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Okay. Aaron Spiegel: I trust Pastor Green because he's he's always of his word, he always shows up. and he's consistent and that comes with time. Fran Quigley: Well, what I hear from you all is that, you know, what we share across faith traditions and even in beyond faith traditions is is much more important than what divides us and especially when it comes to loving our neighbor and and acting on that love and and Pastor Green and Rabbi Aaron, you you act on that love, you walk the walk as well as talking the talk. And so we appreciate you. I appreciate everything you do, appreciate you spending some time with us so that more people can can learn about your great work and and hopefully we can follow in your footsteps. Aaron Spiegel: Thanks, Brian. Rev. David W. Greene Sr.: Thanks, Brian. Fran Quigley: Thank you all for listening. This has been We Can Do Better.