Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: DNA and The Murder of Nancy Anderson

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: DNA and The Murder of Nancy Anderson · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Back in the late sixties,
0:22
Speaker 1: probably my all time favorite television show premiered I was
0:27
Speaker 1: a little boy. I'd wait on those certain weekday nights
0:32
Speaker 1: for the show to appear, and I knew it was
0:34
Speaker 1: coming home because of the music, and then the visuals
0:36
Speaker 1: would just kind of burst on the screen, that tiny
0:39
Speaker 1: TV that my MoMA and I had in our house, trailer,
0:43
Speaker 1: gigantic waves, crashing, exotic land place. I didn't think i'd
0:49
Speaker 1: ever go, still having to this day, but that show
0:51
Speaker 1: was called a Wifeivo. I was amazed by it. And
0:56
Speaker 1: you know what, at the end of each show, back
1:00
Speaker 1: lord he was a detective. He solved every one of
1:05
Speaker 1: those cases, it seemed like. But you know, for almost
1:08
Speaker 1: fifty years, there was an unsolved homicide in Hawaii, one
1:14
Speaker 1: that was so brutal they would never portray on that
1:16
Speaker 1: television show from back then. I'm talking about the homicide
1:20
Speaker 1: of Nancy Anderson. Today we're going to talk about it
1:25
Speaker 1: and how that case has been solved. Finally, after all
1:27
Speaker 1: these years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
1:37
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, when this case came across the wire,
1:40
Speaker 1: and I began to read about it. It turned up
1:43
Speaker 1: all kinds of memories from childhood for me, because you know,
1:46
Speaker 1: you always felt liked that the police in Hawaii, We're
1:48
Speaker 1: gonna solve these cases that they're confronted with. But you
1:53
Speaker 1: realize that your idea that you have from Hawaii vow
1:57
Speaker 1: from when you were a kid, that's merely fantasy. That
2:00
Speaker 1: it is the real world out there and sometimes cases
2:03
Speaker 1: just go unsolved. But now in the world that we
2:07
Speaker 1: live in, with all of this technology at our disposal,
2:10
Speaker 1: things are changing, and they certainly did in this case.
2:14
Speaker 1: Joining me is Jackie Howard, executive producer for Nancy Grace's
2:18
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Jackie, I'll tell you what I know that
2:22
Speaker 1: the family of Nancy Anderson is just beyond excited and
2:28
Speaker 1: probably sad, but excited because finally, after all these years,
2:32
Speaker 1: they appear to have some answers. Nancy Anderson was one
2:36
Speaker 1: of nine children, it was a large family. So I'm
2:40
Speaker 1: sure Joe that you are absolutely correct, and going back
2:43
Speaker 1: to what you were saying in your opening, you're telling
2:45
Speaker 1: our age because I did the same thing. Watched hawifive
2:49
Speaker 1: O religiously when I was growing up, and never in
2:54
Speaker 1: my life. Imagine that the kind of things that were
2:56
Speaker 1: on that show were real that actually happened in the
3:00
Speaker 1: real world. Covering this case, nineteen year old Nancy Anderson
3:05
Speaker 1: moved from Michigan to Waikie Key after graduating high school.
3:12
Speaker 1: She was nineteen years old. She was working Adam McDonald's
3:19
Speaker 1: and when she died. When she was killed, it really
3:23
Speaker 1: put a scare in her neighbors in the apartment complex
3:28
Speaker 1: because they had no idea what was going on. Was
3:33
Speaker 1: their exterial killer running round? Was there a killer amongst them?
3:36
Speaker 1: Was somebody else going to be targeted next? The leads
3:40
Speaker 1: in this case dried up quickly after looking at boyfriend, salesman, neighbors,
3:50
Speaker 1: co workers. The tips dried up. And you're right, it
3:54
Speaker 1: took over fifty years to solve this case. What happens,
3:58
Speaker 1: Joe when a case gohoes called like this? Obviously technology
4:02
Speaker 1: has grown tremendously in the last fifty years, But how
4:06
Speaker 1: do you mount an investigation when there really is nothing
4:10
Speaker 1: to go on. It's almost like a ghost appeared in
4:13
Speaker 1: Nancy's life and ended it. And this is not something
4:17
Speaker 1: just you know, just so that we understand that the
4:20
Speaker 1: brutality that was involved in this homicide, I can imagine
4:24
Speaker 1: by those standards, and during that time was absolutely shocking.
4:29
Speaker 1: They were in Wiki Key. This is a location that
4:33
Speaker 1: for the most part, people go for vacation or maybe
4:37
Speaker 1: if there have the ability, you know, maybe someplace to retire.
4:41
Speaker 1: But young Nancy, and she was just out of high school.
4:45
Speaker 1: I mean, I think less than a year at that point,
4:47
Speaker 1: and she she had made a decision during that period
4:51
Speaker 1: of time, which is something you kind of hear a
4:53
Speaker 1: lot about now, taking what's called a gap year. You know,
4:55
Speaker 1: I'm a college professor now and there are kids that
4:58
Speaker 1: take gap years. It is that period of time between
5:02
Speaker 1: the end of high school and generally you go off somewhere,
5:07
Speaker 1: you get a job, maybe a travel and some people
5:09
Speaker 1: think that it's a good idea because you matured a
5:11
Speaker 1: little bit during that period of time before you actually
5:14
Speaker 1: start your college years. And that's what she had done,
5:18
Speaker 1: and from what we understand, you know, it was it
5:21
Speaker 1: was her dream. But it was an absolute nightmare because
5:25
Speaker 1: if you're a police officer and you walk into this
5:28
Speaker 1: apartment after the roommate has essentially found Nancy deceased, and
5:33
Speaker 1: you know, the roommate, the roommate at first thought that
5:36
Speaker 1: this was a suicide. Isn't that amazing she thought that
5:39
Speaker 1: it was a suicide. So, you know, when this call
5:42
Speaker 1: comes out over the radio and there we have codes. Actually,
5:46
Speaker 1: you know where where you'll you'll hear a radio code
5:48
Speaker 1: that'll come out. And I'll give you an example. When
5:50
Speaker 1: I was in New Orleans at twenty nine, if at
5:52
Speaker 1: twenty nine came out over the radio, that meant death, Okay,
5:56
Speaker 1: that means it's a code for death. And then if
5:58
Speaker 1: it's at twenty nine, that was code for death suicide.
6:04
Speaker 1: And so can you imagine you're a beat officer and
6:06
Speaker 1: maybe just came up as a death, maybe suspected suicide.
6:11
Speaker 1: You'll roll onto the scene and it is far from
6:14
Speaker 1: a suicide. You've got this young woman who has absolutely
6:18
Speaker 1: been brutalized and she's only been there for a short
6:22
Speaker 1: period of time. You know, you first glance, you know
6:25
Speaker 1: she's living with a roommate, she's got a job, she's
6:28
Speaker 1: gainfully employed. There's no signs of forced to entry or struggle.
6:32
Speaker 1: And you're thinking, well, what kind of enemy could she
6:37
Speaker 1: have made that would absolutely rip her to shreds like this?
6:42
Speaker 1: And I can only imagine that the local police. We're
6:45
Speaker 1: scratching their heads in this case, once the autopsy was
6:49
Speaker 1: done on the body, I would have been scratching my
6:51
Speaker 1: head too. The information that was released found that Anderson
6:57
Speaker 1: was stabbed at least sixty three times. Sixty three separate
7:03
Speaker 1: wounds were visible. Now, as you and I've talked a lot,
7:06
Speaker 1: that number can actually be deceiving, Joe, because depending on
7:11
Speaker 1: how in the position the stabs were made, you may
7:15
Speaker 1: not be able to really count them. You're absolutely right,
7:19
Speaker 1: there's a big difference between stab and slice. The boiler
7:24
Speaker 1: plate for it. When we're describing them in terms of
7:27
Speaker 1: forensic pathology, the stabs tend to be narrow and deep, okay,
7:32
Speaker 1: And we can imagine that and just imagine a stag
7:34
Speaker 1: knife in your hand. You're going to plunge it into
7:37
Speaker 1: a target, if you will, so it'll be narrow and deep, okay.
7:42
Speaker 1: And if it's a slice, which is different than a
7:45
Speaker 1: stab wound, you're cutting across the surface and those are
7:49
Speaker 1: more shallow and they're longer, all right. So you just
7:52
Speaker 1: think about you know, in the idea of you're slicing something, Okay,
7:56
Speaker 1: you're slicing a piece of paper, it's going to be
7:58
Speaker 1: shallow and it'll be so. The fact that they said
8:02
Speaker 1: that these were stab wounds, they didn't say that they
8:05
Speaker 1: were sharp force injury. They didn't say that there was
8:08
Speaker 1: a mixture of these wounds gives you an indication that
8:11
Speaker 1: they saw evidence of stabbing. Now to your point, and
8:16
Speaker 1: this is you're right on the money here, because with
8:20
Speaker 1: a stab wound and you have this many, you'll get
8:23
Speaker 1: this mixture of these things. And it's hard to try
8:27
Speaker 1: to understand where one ends and one begins because you
8:31
Speaker 1: have to think, first off, if it is sharp force,
8:34
Speaker 1: that means that you're in a very tight personal space
8:38
Speaker 1: with the individual. So if you have an attacker that
8:42
Speaker 1: has an individual the victim, on the floor and they're
8:44
Speaker 1: on top of them, these wounds tend to be highly concentrated,
8:49
Speaker 1: that means like right on top of one another. Imagine,
8:53
Speaker 1: if you will, an old fashioned sewing machine with the
8:57
Speaker 1: needle in place. You're moving that needle, or that needle
9:00
Speaker 1: is you know, is going up and down at a
9:03
Speaker 1: rapid motion, and it's striking very precise areas because of
9:06
Speaker 1: the close proximity to it. The only thing that changes
9:09
Speaker 1: is moving the cloth beneath the needle in the same
9:14
Speaker 1: principle with a stab wound, it's over and over a
9:16
Speaker 1: close proximity. You've got this kind of piston like action
9:20
Speaker 1: of the individual that is withdrawing the blade and then
9:23
Speaker 1: reintroducing the blade into the body. And not all of
9:26
Speaker 1: these injuries are going to be the same depth, which
9:30
Speaker 1: is something you have to account for. It autopsy, you
9:32
Speaker 1: get an idea as to how deep these insults are
9:36
Speaker 1: going into the body, because you know, every time you
9:39
Speaker 1: plunge a knife down into someone's chest or their back
9:44
Speaker 1: or their abdomen, these wounds are going to be striking
9:48
Speaker 1: different anatomical structures. Beneath the skin. You might say, for instance,
9:53
Speaker 1: to strike the abdomen, and you're just going to go
9:56
Speaker 1: through the abdominal wall, which is made up primarily of
9:59
Speaker 1: the skin subcue fat in the underlying muscle. But if
10:02
Speaker 1: you move up the torso, now you begin to get
10:06
Speaker 1: into the area where your organs are protected by your
10:10
Speaker 1: rib cage, your interior ribs. So unless you make it
10:14
Speaker 1: in between the ribs, which is that's called the intercostal space,
10:18
Speaker 1: you have muscle that's in between the ribs, then you're
10:21
Speaker 1: going to strike bones. So that wound is obviously not
10:25
Speaker 1: going to be as deep as say, if you plunge
10:27
Speaker 1: the knife into the into the abdom and the same
10:30
Speaker 1: as true with the back, and as a matter of fact,
10:32
Speaker 1: you're dealing with even more structures back there because you
10:34
Speaker 1: have the scapula, which are the shoulder blades, and then
10:39
Speaker 1: you're also talking about the bony prominences of the spine.
10:42
Speaker 1: So you begin to think about how many of these
10:44
Speaker 1: wounds were actually fatal, and that's one of the issues
10:49
Speaker 1: that the forensic mythologist has to deal with when they're
10:51
Speaker 1: doing this examination. What vessels are clipped, what organs are impacted,
10:55
Speaker 1: and then ultimately, you know, you begin to measure the
10:59
Speaker 1: amount of visit blood that you have contained, say, for instance,
11:02
Speaker 1: in the abdomen or in either side of the chest,
11:05
Speaker 1: the left chest or the right chest, and you begin
11:07
Speaker 1: to appreciate maybe what organs were impacted to the point
11:12
Speaker 1: where it was no longer compatible life, and you can
11:14
Speaker 1: also get a sense for how much blood free flowed
11:18
Speaker 1: through those spaces. Another surprising finding of the pathology report
11:24
Speaker 1: is the absence of any drugs or alcohol in Nancy
11:28
Speaker 1: Anderson's body, and the fact that she had not been raped.
11:32
Speaker 1: There was no sexual assault. So if you take out
11:36
Speaker 1: two likely scenarios for Nancy's death, that is in something
11:40
Speaker 1: happened while she's intoxicated or an assault, this makes this
11:45
Speaker 1: a really strange circumstance. You throw around word like sadistic,
11:51
Speaker 1: you know, sadistic, you know kind of falls under this
11:54
Speaker 1: kind of psychosexual motivations for killings, you know, sadism, all
11:58
Speaker 1: those sorts of things, not say, but sadism you don't
12:02
Speaker 1: have to necessarily have, and you can talk to most
12:05
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists that are out there, you know, you don't
12:08
Speaker 1: necessarily have to have what would be considered a classic
12:12
Speaker 1: sexual assault, you know, where clothing is ripped away and
12:15
Speaker 1: you have evidence of sexual assault through rape and these
12:18
Speaker 1: sorts of things. To have something that is motivated by lust. Okay,
12:23
Speaker 1: because part of this, on this kind of spectrum, you
12:26
Speaker 1: can have an individual that will attack someone and rip
12:29
Speaker 1: them to shreds and they receive some kind of gratification
12:34
Speaker 1: out of this. What's fascinating about this is you begin
12:39
Speaker 1: to think back then Honolulu. We mentioned it being portrayed
12:43
Speaker 1: on television. It's very exotic, and you see, this is
12:46
Speaker 1: not a tiny, tiny town. This is a place where
12:49
Speaker 1: you know, we've been there, Our nation has been there
12:52
Speaker 1: for years and years, occupying space, a lot of military personnel,
12:56
Speaker 1: a lot of people coming and go in out of
12:57
Speaker 1: this area. And so when you see something this brutal
13:00
Speaker 1: as an investigator, you begin to think, well, do I
13:03
Speaker 1: have any other cases that might fit within this category?
13:07
Speaker 1: Because I think most of us that are we're investigators.
13:11
Speaker 1: We don't think that this is going to be a
13:13
Speaker 1: one off event. There's somebody that would rise to this
13:17
Speaker 1: level and attack a total stranger, a young woman that
13:21
Speaker 1: is just graduated from high school. You have to think that, well,
13:25
Speaker 1: are there more victims out there? Do you have some
13:28
Speaker 1: type of killer that is roaming about that takes pleasure
13:32
Speaker 1: in absolutely just ripping a young woman to shreds like this?
13:37
Speaker 1: So it makes you examine the evidence very hard. And
13:39
Speaker 1: I think that on one hand, if you're looking for
13:41
Speaker 1: physical evidence, so certainly a sexual assault can be rich
13:45
Speaker 1: with that because you can find all kinds of things
13:47
Speaker 1: relative to a sexual assault that you might not find
13:50
Speaker 1: in another case. Say, for instance, if you have a
13:52
Speaker 1: sexual assault, there might be an opportunity if you're going
13:55
Speaker 1: to do what are called pubic combings, which is something
13:58
Speaker 1: we do as part of a rape, because you might
14:00
Speaker 1: find a pubic here that's not associated with the victim. Okay,
14:04
Speaker 1: you might find seminal stains, for instance. And back then,
14:07
Speaker 1: one of the things that we look for in cases,
14:11
Speaker 1: because we didn't have DNA that we would turn to
14:14
Speaker 1: was if you had saliva or if you had siminal stains,
14:19
Speaker 1: you would look for someone that's referred to as a secret.
14:23
Speaker 1: And there's you know, just less than fifty percent of
14:26
Speaker 1: the population and I don't know the figure exactly off
14:28
Speaker 1: the top of my head are secrets. And what that
14:32
Speaker 1: means is that when you test those samples from either
14:36
Speaker 1: saliva or from semen, and there are other elements of
14:40
Speaker 1: the body as well, but in those in particular, you
14:42
Speaker 1: can actually find red blood cells contained in those areas.
14:46
Speaker 1: So back then, with the absence of DNA, you can
14:49
Speaker 1: actually type the blood based upon you know, those secretions
14:53
Speaker 1: that you might find in the course. As you mentioned,
14:55
Speaker 1: in this case, there was no evidence of that. And
15:16
Speaker 1: it goes without saying nineteen seventy two where that was
15:19
Speaker 1: a different a different time than present day. So much
15:24
Speaker 1: has changed since that time. But you know what, basic
15:28
Speaker 1: crime scene investigation has not changed, has not changed one wit.
15:33
Speaker 1: And in this case, I think that the police actually
15:36
Speaker 1: had more to go on than they thought. A lot
15:38
Speaker 1: of that information came from Nancy Anderson's roommate. So one
15:44
Speaker 1: of the things I've learned from you, Joe, was like,
15:46
Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning and set up our timeline.
15:49
Speaker 1: So we know that Nancy Anderson was talking to believe
15:55
Speaker 1: it or not, two door to door knife salesman the
16:00
Speaker 1: afternoon when her roommate came home. She told police she
16:05
Speaker 1: saw Nancy talking to these two gentlemen in the living room.
16:10
Speaker 1: Now from there she went into her room, and that
16:15
Speaker 1: time was around two o'clock that afternoon, and the body
16:20
Speaker 1: wasn't found for approximately three hours later that afternoon, after
16:27
Speaker 1: the roommate went to take a nap. The body was
16:30
Speaker 1: found around five fifteen. The roommate found Nancy Anderson's body
16:37
Speaker 1: in the bathroom. So I've got a couple of questions
16:40
Speaker 1: about that, But my main question is, we know, with
16:44
Speaker 1: over sixty stab wounds that this was a very very
16:48
Speaker 1: violent death, and she moved from the living room where
16:53
Speaker 1: she was originally talking to the salesman to the bathroom.
16:58
Speaker 1: How could even if the roommate when she first woke up,
17:02
Speaker 1: she thought that Nancy had committed suicide because of how
17:05
Speaker 1: she was in the bathroom. But if this had been
17:07
Speaker 1: a very violent attack, as we believe it was, how
17:11
Speaker 1: could she not have heard it? How is that even possible?
17:14
Speaker 1: And I want to visit this idea of thinking that
17:16
Speaker 1: it was suicide. My thought on this when I first
17:20
Speaker 1: read this. Because the room, the bathroom that is, has
17:25
Speaker 1: been described as almost being bathed in blood, super saturated
17:29
Speaker 1: with blood. I think there's something within us in our mind.
17:33
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about from the perspective of the roommate.
17:35
Speaker 1: I think her initial reaction was probably suicide because it's
17:41
Speaker 1: almost like she's protecting herself, you know what I mean.
17:45
Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you think about it, you think
17:47
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine, maybe at an unconscious level, that a
17:51
Speaker 1: homicide has taken place in my presence you were talking
17:56
Speaker 1: about just a second ago, where how could she have
17:59
Speaker 1: not heard this? And I think that there's almost this
18:02
Speaker 1: safety switch that flipped on possibly with her where she's saying, oh, well,
18:06
Speaker 1: it had to be a suicide, you know, because I
18:08
Speaker 1: can't imagine that homicide has been perpetrated and to this
18:12
Speaker 1: degree when I am asleep just right down the hall
18:17
Speaker 1: from where this horror show takes place. And so her
18:21
Speaker 1: initial reaction was, yeah, this is a suicide. She noticed,
18:25
Speaker 1: and you know what was what cued her is that
18:28
Speaker 1: when she woke up, and this is a very important
18:31
Speaker 1: piece of information here from an investigator standpoint, she heard
18:34
Speaker 1: water running. The water was running in the bathroom adjacent
18:38
Speaker 1: to where Nancy's remains were found, and that gives you
18:43
Speaker 1: an indication after of course, you know you've inspected seen
18:46
Speaker 1: as the investigator, gives you an indication as to what
18:49
Speaker 1: was going on, potentially that maybe, just maybe there was
18:54
Speaker 1: an attempt by the perpetrator to clean himself up at
18:58
Speaker 1: that point in time, that they were making some kind
19:02
Speaker 1: of effort to get rid of evidence that they may
19:07
Speaker 1: have on their body. Because if the room is bathed
19:09
Speaker 1: in blood, this is not something that this individual is
19:12
Speaker 1: going to get away with cleanly. They will concurrently be
19:18
Speaker 1: saturated in blood, particularly over the surface of their hands.
19:22
Speaker 1: If they're wearing long sleeved shirts, that'll be up to
19:26
Speaker 1: the elbow perhaps, if not, if the lower arm is
19:30
Speaker 1: not protected, you're going to have blood stain on both
19:34
Speaker 1: the palmer aspect of the form and probably the top
19:39
Speaker 1: side of the forearm as well, even beneath the fingernails,
19:42
Speaker 1: because blood is so tacky, it's kind of the way
19:45
Speaker 1: that it transfers to the body. So with the water running,
19:48
Speaker 1: would I would suspect that if there had been a
19:51
Speaker 1: bar soap sitting there. Remember this is before the days
19:54
Speaker 1: of you know, where you've got some kind of pump
19:56
Speaker 1: bottle of liquid soap. They didn't do that back then.
19:58
Speaker 1: You would have a know, a bar of old fashioned
20:01
Speaker 1: hand soap that was sitting there perhaps and the individual
20:04
Speaker 1: was washing their hands or making an attempt and soap
20:08
Speaker 1: is There's been any number of cases where people have
20:11
Speaker 1: transferred blood from their hands to soap, and you know,
20:13
Speaker 1: of course we collect that and you can get valuable
20:17
Speaker 1: evidence off of the surfaces. Soap because it has such
20:20
Speaker 1: attacking us about it, it'll hold on to a number
20:23
Speaker 1: of things. You know, you can find hair on there,
20:24
Speaker 1: you can find dead skin cells. You can also find
20:27
Speaker 1: blood that will transfer over there. You know, as you're
20:29
Speaker 1: holding this, so the thing that you're attempting to clean
20:32
Speaker 1: up with can actually be the thing that trips you up.
20:35
Speaker 1: I think that probably what it came down to is
20:37
Speaker 1: that within this environment. I found a number I mean
20:41
Speaker 1: a number of towels that have been used, and of
20:43
Speaker 1: course there was blood on the surface of that. So
20:47
Speaker 1: that's going to be a big starting place for the police.
20:50
Speaker 1: In this case, you were talking about the wounds, Joe.
20:54
Speaker 1: There were lots of injuries, but that the pathology report,
20:58
Speaker 1: the autopsy described as defensive wounds on her arms and
21:04
Speaker 1: her legs. How do you know the difference? How can
21:07
Speaker 1: you tell the difference in these kind of wounds? Excellent question.
21:12
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons is that I call this
21:15
Speaker 1: an excellent question is that if you're targeting an individual
21:19
Speaker 1: as an aggressor driving a knife through either the palm
21:24
Speaker 1: of someone's hand or through the back of someone's hand,
21:26
Speaker 1: or through the webbing. You know where you slice through
21:28
Speaker 1: the webbing, and folks will look at their index finger
21:31
Speaker 1: and their thumb and that area right in between there.
21:34
Speaker 1: That's often where we'll see a slice injury because people
21:38
Speaker 1: will grab hold of the blade. You'll see it on
21:40
Speaker 1: the palmer aspect or on the palm itself of the
21:43
Speaker 1: hands where the knife will kind of pass over that
21:46
Speaker 1: surface and cut the hand right there as well. Those
21:50
Speaker 1: are atypical what we refer to as atypical injuries because
21:54
Speaker 1: you think of an attacker an aggressor if you will
21:58
Speaker 1: moving forward toward a target, Well, where are they going
22:01
Speaker 1: to try to stab when they're not looking down at
22:04
Speaker 1: the sides of the body where they're going to aim
22:07
Speaker 1: for the hands or maybe the arms. If you throw
22:10
Speaker 1: your forearm up in a blocking motion, that's that's not
22:13
Speaker 1: what their target is. In kind of this defensive posture
22:17
Speaker 1: that we naturally go into as a response to something
22:20
Speaker 1: that's oncoming, whether it's a car, a knife, or somebody
22:24
Speaker 1: has thrown a gun up at us to shoot at us.
22:28
Speaker 1: You know, people throw their hands up in arms up
22:30
Speaker 1: as a defensive posture. It's just kind of a natural reaction.
22:34
Speaker 1: The way you're able to kind of discern between these
22:37
Speaker 1: types of injuries is the fact that the typical attacking
22:41
Speaker 1: area is going to be the neck, the face, maybe
22:46
Speaker 1: certain areas of the head, and certainly the chest in
22:48
Speaker 1: the abdomen. I mean, that's that's what the attacker is
22:51
Speaker 1: going after. And you know what's really curious about this
22:54
Speaker 1: case as well, and I've gotten my thoughts about this.
22:56
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up these injuries on the legs.
23:00
Speaker 1: You don't commonly hear of defensive injuries to the legs.
23:05
Speaker 1: My thought is is that he had Nancy in a
23:10
Speaker 1: submissive position, probably on her backside on the floor, and
23:17
Speaker 1: she is attempting to kick him away with her legs,
23:20
Speaker 1: and he's just flailing at her with his knife. And
23:23
Speaker 1: so as she is kicking at him, he's flailing with
23:26
Speaker 1: a knife, he's actually attempting to stab at her legs.
23:30
Speaker 1: And this is my other thought. You know how we
23:32
Speaker 1: talked about there was an absence of evidence of a
23:36
Speaker 1: sexual attack. Okay, maybe this was an incomplete attack. Maybe
23:43
Speaker 1: something spooked this individual, because let's think about it. The
23:46
Speaker 1: individual has gotten Nancy on her back in a submissive position,
23:50
Speaker 1: he's dominant. I've used the term asymmetrical before, and this
23:54
Speaker 1: is an asymmetrical attack where you've got someone that's an
23:57
Speaker 1: a dominant position above and there's wing down. You can
24:01
Speaker 1: have it in bludgeoning cases, you can have it stabblished. Hello,
24:05
Speaker 1: you can even have it in shooting cases where you're
24:07
Speaker 1: in a dominant position above the individual. And so maybe,
24:12
Speaker 1: just maybe the individual's goal was to perpetrate a sexual attack,
24:16
Speaker 1: but they couldn't complete the action. Maybe they got spooked
24:19
Speaker 1: in some way, maybe they heard something. I'm thinking that
24:23
Speaker 1: this individual had to have known, had to have known
24:28
Speaker 1: that the roommate was there. But wait, Joe, if we
24:31
Speaker 1: were to make an assumption that the killer was one
24:33
Speaker 1: of the two salesmen, which would seem to be an
24:36
Speaker 1: obvious jump, since they were just there and the roommates
24:38
Speaker 1: saw them, then we would know the person knew that
24:42
Speaker 1: the roommate was their right quite potentially. And isn't it
24:46
Speaker 1: odd to these two salesmen that the roommate witness they're
24:51
Speaker 1: selling silverware. You know, you got a figure that contained
24:54
Speaker 1: in the silverware. You've got sharp instruments, right, any kind
24:58
Speaker 1: of knives, I would imagine you maybe you have you know,
25:02
Speaker 1: some people call them case knives, butter knives, you know
25:06
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. You might have steak knives. You
25:08
Speaker 1: have all of these sharp instruments. And not to mention,
25:10
Speaker 1: you've got serving forks. You've got regular forks, salad forks,
25:14
Speaker 1: anything that has a point on it like that. And
25:16
Speaker 1: they're selling this And these are the last two people
25:20
Speaker 1: that the roommates saw in connection to Nancy. And I
25:25
Speaker 1: find that so odd in this case. What are the
25:28
Speaker 1: odds of that that those would be, these two individuals
25:31
Speaker 1: selling these types of items would be part of this
25:35
Speaker 1: story is super bizarre. And of course as investigators, you're
25:39
Speaker 1: going after these people and they will be known because
25:42
Speaker 1: you know, back then, during that time, you and I
25:44
Speaker 1: had an offair discussion about experiences that we had, particularly
25:48
Speaker 1: when we were younger. You know, vacuum cleaner salesman would
25:52
Speaker 1: come by the house regularly, you know, I mean people
25:54
Speaker 1: sold encyclopedias. They'd come to your door and sell them.
25:57
Speaker 1: So you'd have salesman, traveling salesman that will come about.
26:00
Speaker 1: And if they've gone to these two young women's apartment
26:05
Speaker 1: and knocked on the door, guess what they've knocked on
26:07
Speaker 1: other people's stores as well. They've probably left contact information
26:10
Speaker 1: with people, so they would be easy for the cops
26:12
Speaker 1: to track down at that point. And you're own an island,
26:15
Speaker 1: you ain't going nowhere, so they can track them down.
26:18
Speaker 1: I would imagine that early owning the investigation, they were
26:21
Speaker 1: able to kind of strike these two individuals off the list.
26:25
Speaker 1: So I am fascinated by the bathroom yet again, because
26:32
Speaker 1: the bathroom seems to be a place where a lot
26:37
Speaker 1: of people end up and getting murdered in the bathroom.
26:40
Speaker 1: Do we have a tendency to think that the bathroom
26:44
Speaker 1: is some kind of I don't know. You see it
26:47
Speaker 1: in horror movies. You see it when we're talking about
26:50
Speaker 1: hurricanes or I mean with tornadoes or bad weather. The
26:54
Speaker 1: bathroom is safe. The bathroom is safe. Is that kind
26:56
Speaker 1: of just something that's ingrained in us? If I can
26:59
Speaker 1: get to the BA bathroom and shut the door, I
27:01
Speaker 1: will be safe. Yeah, it's a it's a point of retreat.
27:04
Speaker 1: And I got to tell you there's an interesting little
27:06
Speaker 1: aside here as well. And you know, I've posed this
27:10
Speaker 1: question to my students a lot and people that I
27:12
Speaker 1: talked to, and you talk to other people that were
27:14
Speaker 1: in my profession medical legal death investigators. You ask them
27:16
Speaker 1: and say, well, where do you generally work the most
27:19
Speaker 1: deaths in a home as a death investigator? And automatically
27:23
Speaker 1: hands will go up and they'll say the bathroom. Well
27:26
Speaker 1: it's for a different reason though than this, okay, And
27:29
Speaker 1: it's kind of odd. Most people don't think about it.
27:31
Speaker 1: But we have something that's referred to actually as toilet
27:35
Speaker 1: sign and it's just a term that we use because
27:38
Speaker 1: we find that a lot of people deceased on the
27:40
Speaker 1: toilet because one of the leading cause of death in
27:42
Speaker 1: America's heart disease, and of course people have m eyes
27:45
Speaker 1: or heart attacks and they will have a need to
27:49
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. You'll find them deceased on the
27:51
Speaker 1: toilet many times. But people do in fact retreat to bathrooms.
27:56
Speaker 1: You know, it's seemingly And there's also another piece to this.
27:59
Speaker 1: I think that many times perpetrators will do great harm
28:04
Speaker 1: to people and then to cover their tracks. The bathroom
28:08
Speaker 1: is what you refer to as a wet room. Right,
28:10
Speaker 1: So what is the best area other than running the
28:14
Speaker 1: risk of taking someone outside of a freestanding dwelling and
28:18
Speaker 1: rinsing the body and the evidence off in the yard.
28:20
Speaker 1: The best place you're going to have protection, we have
28:23
Speaker 1: access to water is going to be the bathroom. You
28:25
Speaker 1: can put potties in tubs, you can wash your hands
28:28
Speaker 1: in the sink. You've got tile floor. Many times you'd
28:30
Speaker 1: think that you can rinse it down. It's not going
28:32
Speaker 1: to soak through through wood or carpet or whatever. So
28:35
Speaker 1: it's an environment in which I think is a natural
28:39
Speaker 1: place for perpetrators to go. And for some reason, many
28:42
Speaker 1: times it's a place for people to retreat to. I
28:45
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know that that was the case in Nancy's death.
28:49
Speaker 1: Maybe she had the thought that she could put distance
28:53
Speaker 1: between herself and her attacker after she was initially attacked
28:56
Speaker 1: in that front room and retreated to the bathroom, but
29:00
Speaker 1: she too much harm was done at that point. She
29:03
Speaker 1: couldn't get this guy off of her. I will never
29:26
Speaker 1: stop mentioning Edmond Lecard on the show is he is
29:30
Speaker 1: the godfather of all things forensics as far as I'm concerned.
29:33
Speaker 1: And of course we go back to Leocard's exchange principle
29:37
Speaker 1: where he said every not some, but every contact leaves
29:43
Speaker 1: a trace. And in this case, the one thing that
29:47
Speaker 1: the perpetrator left behind was an essence of themselves there
29:52
Speaker 1: at that scene. And that essence, of course was blood.
29:56
Speaker 1: There was lots of blood found in this apartment and
29:59
Speaker 1: blood towels. Whether that was from trying to clean themselves
30:04
Speaker 1: up or trying to quell the spread of the blood
30:08
Speaker 1: from the wounds. It ended up being a wealth of information.
30:11
Speaker 1: It just took a long time to figure out the
30:15
Speaker 1: information that they needed. Talk to me a little bit
30:17
Speaker 1: about the blood, Joe, because what kind of testing does
30:21
Speaker 1: it go through to begin with, I'm not even talking
30:24
Speaker 1: about getting to the DNA. I'm just talking about in general.
30:28
Speaker 1: Do they break it down in some way? Yeah, yeah,
30:32
Speaker 1: they do. And so when you begin to think about
30:35
Speaker 1: this with blood, and I want our listeners to really
30:38
Speaker 1: understand that because you walk away hopefully every time you
30:41
Speaker 1: listen to body bags with a little bit more information.
30:44
Speaker 1: When we go out to a scene, we might see
30:47
Speaker 1: a crusted red stain somewhere. Now you might suspect that
30:52
Speaker 1: that's blood, but you never say that it is blood,
30:55
Speaker 1: not until you can confirm it. And so there's a
30:58
Speaker 1: series of testing that's done even to this day. Just
31:01
Speaker 1: because you see something red doesn't mean that it's necessarily blood.
31:05
Speaker 1: And you know, just because something is another color doesn't
31:08
Speaker 1: mean that it's not blood. Well, let me let me
31:10
Speaker 1: test what I've learned from each other. Yeah, a fresh
31:14
Speaker 1: blood stain will be bright red. However, a blood stain
31:19
Speaker 1: that's been there for a while, as it oxidizes, begins
31:23
Speaker 1: to turn a darker brown color. Yes, it does. I
31:27
Speaker 1: got it, actually right, you did, hey, and let me
31:32
Speaker 1: let me give you this is for extra credit. Do
31:33
Speaker 1: you recall what happens if you have a pool of
31:35
Speaker 1: blood over a period of time, one begins to happen there. Oh,
31:38
Speaker 1: I'm not getting any extra credit. Okay, Well, what begins
31:42
Speaker 1: to happen is that after blood has been pooled for
31:44
Speaker 1: a while on the ground, you'll see the red blood
31:47
Speaker 1: cells begin to migrate away from the serum. Wait wait,
31:50
Speaker 1: wait and explain that migrate away from the way. Yeah,
31:53
Speaker 1: the blood. Blood is not a standalone liquid. It's not
31:57
Speaker 1: like you know, you've got water, which, of course water's
32:00
Speaker 1: got two components hydrogen oxygen. But with blood, it has
32:04
Speaker 1: multiple components. So as it's not circulating through the body,
32:08
Speaker 1: it'll separate out into various components. And one of the
32:12
Speaker 1: things that you see happen is that the serum, which
32:15
Speaker 1: is clear, will begin to separate from the red blood
32:19
Speaker 1: cells and you'll see it and it migrates away, so
32:22
Speaker 1: you'll have this disdain that actually changes color. But to
32:26
Speaker 1: a bigger issue here. One of the things that we
32:28
Speaker 1: do we have to confirm whether or not something is
32:31
Speaker 1: in fact blood. So there's a test you can do
32:34
Speaker 1: in the field to determine if it is in fact blood,
32:37
Speaker 1: because you don't want to waste your time on something
32:38
Speaker 1: that's not blood. But you have to eliminate it, right,
32:41
Speaker 1: If it is blood, you have to determine, well, is
32:45
Speaker 1: it animal or human? So we then do another test,
32:50
Speaker 1: a confirmatory test in that area, and then it's at
32:53
Speaker 1: that point that you begin to do blood typing. That's
32:58
Speaker 1: kind of where things kind of froze back in nineteen
33:01
Speaker 1: seventy two, if you will. And what they determined is
33:05
Speaker 1: that the blood that they had at the scene, obviously
33:08
Speaker 1: there was a lot of Nancy's blood that was spilled.
33:12
Speaker 1: You know, God rest her soul. She went through a
33:14
Speaker 1: horrible event here. But they found they found the essence
33:19
Speaker 1: of somebody else, and that individual happened to be a positive.
33:23
Speaker 1: And we know our blood groupings, you know, we've got
33:25
Speaker 1: A and B and O, and then you've got positives
33:28
Speaker 1: and negatives and all these sorts of things. But a
33:30
Speaker 1: pause is actually the second most frequent blood type, and
33:34
Speaker 1: this is kind of how we used to narrow down
33:37
Speaker 1: who perpetrated a crime or who we would have interest
33:40
Speaker 1: in speaking to. So if it's the second most frequent
33:43
Speaker 1: blood type, it doesn't do a lot of good. It
33:49
Speaker 1: doesn't help you as much as you would like for
33:51
Speaker 1: it to say, for instance, if you had a B
33:54
Speaker 1: pause or AB nag, which tend to be more rare.
33:58
Speaker 1: You got a pause which is the second most frequent,
34:01
Speaker 1: which about I don't know if thirty four percent of
34:03
Speaker 1: population has, but it's a place to start, right and
34:07
Speaker 1: that's what you're looking for, because right now you don't
34:09
Speaker 1: have anything, or the police didn't, and so what I
34:13
Speaker 1: would what I am I'm just fascinated by in this case,
34:17
Speaker 1: and if I shake their hand, I would do it
34:19
Speaker 1: to this day, the crime scene investigators that were at
34:23
Speaker 1: that scene on that faithful day back in nineteen seventy two,
34:28
Speaker 1: they did something that many departments cannot effectively do even today,
34:33
Speaker 1: and that is the blood evidence that they had at
34:36
Speaker 1: that scene, they preserved it. They preserved it so that
34:41
Speaker 1: fifty years later, imagine that, fifty years later, they were
34:47
Speaker 1: able to take a blood sample off of a towel
34:52
Speaker 1: that was evidence in arguably one of the most brutal
34:58
Speaker 1: homicides up to that point that had taken place and
35:00
Speaker 1: certainly unsolved homicides that have taken place in Honolulu at
35:04
Speaker 1: that point in time, and they were able to actually
35:07
Speaker 1: get a DNA profile off of this unknown blood sample.
35:11
Speaker 1: This this a positive person that was just floating around
35:15
Speaker 1: out there that no one knew. Okay, I've got my
35:17
Speaker 1: hand up, professor. I know you can't see me because
35:19
Speaker 1: we're in two separate locations. But how did they actually
35:22
Speaker 1: preserve that? In moving a body from the death location
35:26
Speaker 1: to the morgue, if there's a suspected murder or attack,
35:31
Speaker 1: the hands are covered with paperbag as opposed to plastic because,
35:36
Speaker 1: as you've taught me, plastic makes the hand sweat, which
35:39
Speaker 1: can change what you're going to be, can change your findings.
35:44
Speaker 1: How do you preserve that type of an evidence. A
35:47
Speaker 1: towel which number one possibly could be wet because we
35:51
Speaker 1: know there was water running, is wet from the blood
35:56
Speaker 1: in it. So how do you keep it from molding?
35:59
Speaker 1: How do you keep from degrading? How do you store it? Well,
36:04
Speaker 1: it has to be dried. And I can't speak to
36:07
Speaker 1: what technology they had at the police department in Honolulu
36:11
Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy two, but I can tell you this,
36:15
Speaker 1: If the towel was wet, which obviously we know that
36:19
Speaker 1: there was blood on it, so it had to have
36:20
Speaker 1: been wet. First off, your right in remembering back, we
36:23
Speaker 1: don't put plastic bags on hands because it makes things sweat.
36:28
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, forensic science is not rocket science. We're
36:32
Speaker 1: not going to Mars here. Anybody can understand this. It's
36:35
Speaker 1: actually common sense. It's what it comes down to. If
36:37
Speaker 1: you don't want something to sweat, don't put it in plastic.
36:40
Speaker 1: And you have this wet sample, it has to go
36:43
Speaker 1: into a conveyance like a paper bag, just like we
36:47
Speaker 1: put on the hands. I've actually put paper bags over
36:50
Speaker 1: heads before because you've got valuable evidence. It's there, and
36:53
Speaker 1: you don't want to make that area around the heads
36:57
Speaker 1: sweat with plastic. It's certainly not something that you would do.
37:00
Speaker 1: But if you're trying to preserve, for instance, firearm evidence,
37:04
Speaker 1: I've had projectiles that are barely almost about to fall
37:07
Speaker 1: out of the side of the head that's just beneath
37:09
Speaker 1: the skin. So I will not remove it at the scene.
37:13
Speaker 1: You don't want to do that, you want to be
37:14
Speaker 1: able to document it. I'll put a paper bag over
37:17
Speaker 1: the head. And it's the same principle. Even with these towels,
37:20
Speaker 1: they're damp, so what they would have had to have
37:23
Speaker 1: done is take them back in an environment that is
37:26
Speaker 1: conducive to dry this item out, because once you dry
37:29
Speaker 1: it out. Once you dry it out, it's kind of
37:31
Speaker 1: frozen in time at that point in time, and then
37:34
Speaker 1: you have to stort safely so that all of these
37:36
Speaker 1: years later, First off, it's not going to degrade to
37:39
Speaker 1: the point where you can't get a usable sample off
37:42
Speaker 1: of it, and it's not going to be exposed to
37:46
Speaker 1: changes in relative humidity. You know where it's going to
37:50
Speaker 1: rise and fall, and where it's a predictable environment where
37:53
Speaker 1: you can go back and you can actually access this
37:55
Speaker 1: and cut a sample out of it and test it,
37:57
Speaker 1: which is eventually what has happened in this particular case.
38:02
Speaker 1: They did such a fantastic job all those years ago, oh,
38:05
Speaker 1: all these years ago, where the scientists, the modern scientists,
38:09
Speaker 1: were able to go back and snip some of that
38:13
Speaker 1: area because you don't want to use all of it,
38:15
Speaker 1: but snip some of that sample area and use it
38:18
Speaker 1: and apply modern scientific technique to it. And you know,
38:22
Speaker 1: now we have evolved to such a point in our
38:26
Speaker 1: technology where we don't need as large a sample any
38:29
Speaker 1: longer in order to generate a biological or DNA profile
38:34
Speaker 1: on an individual. You know, we can do smaller and smaller.
38:37
Speaker 1: Now we don't require as large large of a sample
38:41
Speaker 1: of blood in order to facilitate this, not just blood,
38:45
Speaker 1: but any kind of biological sample that we might can
38:47
Speaker 1: harvest DNA front. But how would you do it? I mean,
38:50
Speaker 1: if that towel is wet with blood, like we know,
38:56
Speaker 1: is it. It's not like you're going to put it
38:57
Speaker 1: in the dryer. I mean, do you get you say that?
39:00
Speaker 1: You say that, but did you know that there are
39:02
Speaker 1: actually forensic evidence dryers and they're not tumble dryers. These
39:05
Speaker 1: are Yeah, they're actually glass boxes that are utilized. We
39:10
Speaker 1: have them in morgues, they have them at forensic laboratories
39:14
Speaker 1: where you just knock down all of the humidity in
39:17
Speaker 1: the environment and the thing just dries out. It dries
39:20
Speaker 1: in place, and so you can go back once that
39:22
Speaker 1: is preserved and let's say blood, for instance, it doesn't
39:25
Speaker 1: have that tackiness to it any longer. It's actually a
39:27
Speaker 1: dried sample that you have there. You can preserve it.
39:30
Speaker 1: It's not going to modify it to the point where
39:32
Speaker 1: someone that knows what they're doing can't grab a sample
39:36
Speaker 1: off of it that's going to do a trimming, you know,
39:38
Speaker 1: where they're going to go in at a very minuscule
39:42
Speaker 1: section of that sample clip some of it out. They
39:46
Speaker 1: can actually produce a sample from that that they are
39:49
Speaker 1: able to examine and to develop a profile out of.
39:51
Speaker 1: And one of the things, for instance, that we do
39:54
Speaker 1: at autopsy will take what are called blood cards, and
39:58
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting. They'll reserve at autopsy a tiny
40:02
Speaker 1: blood droplet and it will go onto a specially treated card,
40:07
Speaker 1: and that card is actually filed away and we can
40:10
Speaker 1: hang on to that blood sample for a protracted period
40:14
Speaker 1: of time, a long time. But you know, we're not
40:16
Speaker 1: necessarily talking about a card here, We're actually talking about
40:19
Speaker 1: an unknown blood sample on this towel. Now here's what's key.
40:24
Speaker 1: They were able to preserve enough of it even in
40:26
Speaker 1: the face of having previously identified let's don't forget, they
40:30
Speaker 1: previously identified this blood droplet as what AB pause at
40:34
Speaker 1: that point, so they had already sampled it before, way
40:37
Speaker 1: back when when they sampled every region on that towel,
40:40
Speaker 1: they were able to go through it and eliminate Nancy's
40:43
Speaker 1: blood type out of there. But somehow they were able
40:46
Speaker 1: to find that sample on their way back when sample
40:50
Speaker 1: it and type it and come back with AB pause,
40:53
Speaker 1: and they saved enough of it after all of these
40:56
Speaker 1: years to go back and create a DNA profile off
40:59
Speaker 1: of that drop little blood. You were talking about being
41:02
Speaker 1: able to rule people out. We talked earlier about the
41:06
Speaker 1: traveling salesman and they were ruled out. They passed a
41:10
Speaker 1: polygraph test as well as their fingerprints did not match
41:14
Speaker 1: what was found on the murder scene. So years pass
41:20
Speaker 1: storage of all this important, delicate information that you're talking about,
41:24
Speaker 1: and technology improves, and all of a sudden, we've got
41:27
Speaker 1: all these big words thrown about Joe that I'm going
41:31
Speaker 1: to let you choose which one you want to talk about.
41:33
Speaker 1: We've got phenotyping, We've got genealogy, we've got the new
41:38
Speaker 1: DNA testing. Pick one, now let's start. I know I'm
41:42
Speaker 1: going to pick one. Let's start with the phenotyping. What
41:44
Speaker 1: is it and what good did it do with the investigation. Well,
41:48
Speaker 1: the phenotyping is quite fascinating because you can take a
41:51
Speaker 1: sample of blood in this case, and you can actually
41:55
Speaker 1: begin to run a test in order to develop a snapshot,
42:00
Speaker 1: if you will, of a probable suspect. And when I
42:04
Speaker 1: say probable suspect, this is the beauty of it, and
42:07
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Can you imagine, you know, five generations ago,
42:11
Speaker 1: maybe even four generations go actually telling somebody back in
42:14
Speaker 1: time that we would be able to do this with
42:17
Speaker 1: the phenotyping based upon their DNA profile, you can develop
42:23
Speaker 1: a pretty good guess about what race the individual is,
42:27
Speaker 1: what their hair color is. And in this case, in
42:30
Speaker 1: this particular case, they were able to as a result
42:34
Speaker 1: of this phenotype, determined that the individual at twenty five
42:39
Speaker 1: years of age would look like an individual with average
42:44
Speaker 1: body mass, had a BMI They estimated with the phenotype
42:48
Speaker 1: of twenty two, which is kind of on the average
42:52
Speaker 1: size for an individual. This individual had fair or very
42:56
Speaker 1: fair skin, and they created a composite of this individual. Now,
43:01
Speaker 1: how powerful is that when you're going back in time
43:04
Speaker 1: as a result of this phenotyping, where it leaves behind
43:07
Speaker 1: this kind of fingerprint of what the individual would look like,
43:11
Speaker 1: where you can create and forensic artists can go in
43:13
Speaker 1: based upon this and create a template, if you will,
43:17
Speaker 1: of an individual in what they might look like with
43:19
Speaker 1: these characteristics. Now, obviously it's not going to be absolutely
43:23
Speaker 1: dead on spot on this individual when you find them,
43:26
Speaker 1: but it's going to put you in the ballpark. And
43:29
Speaker 1: you know, for instance, that out of this group and
43:31
Speaker 1: You're going to look for somebody that had fair or
43:35
Speaker 1: very fair skin, that has dark hair, and is going
43:39
Speaker 1: to be about this size at this particular age in life,
43:43
Speaker 1: and that person for that moment when they that droplet
43:46
Speaker 1: of blood was spilled, they're kind of frozen time at
43:50
Speaker 1: that moment in time. And that's absolutely fascinating. And you
43:53
Speaker 1: take phenotyping, you take phenotyping technology, and you marry that
43:58
Speaker 1: up with what eventually brought this case to a resolution,
44:01
Speaker 1: and that's forensic genealogy. Let's recap the numbers joke, because
44:05
Speaker 1: you were talking about the confidence that could be gained
44:08
Speaker 1: from this phenotype report. The report said with eighty two
44:13
Speaker 1: percent confidence that the skin color was fair or very fair,
44:18
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent confidence that it was not brown or
44:22
Speaker 1: dark brown skin, the eye color ninety seven percent confidence
44:27
Speaker 1: that it was brown or hazel, ninety seven percent confidence
44:31
Speaker 1: that it was not green, blue, or black. Hair color
44:36
Speaker 1: ninety nine point eight percent confidence that it was black
44:40
Speaker 1: or brown. And what I found really fascinating was that
44:44
Speaker 1: even with the phenotyping, they could determine whether somebody had
44:49
Speaker 1: freckles ninety one point seven percent confidence that this person
44:55
Speaker 1: had no freckles. How does phenotyping determine whether or not well.
45:01
Speaker 1: It's this unique recipe that we have that's given to
45:05
Speaker 1: us v our parents DNA, the merging of our mother's
45:10
Speaker 1: DNA and our father's DNA, that is going to dictate
45:15
Speaker 1: why our appearance moving forward, and those probabilities can be
45:19
Speaker 1: estimated essentially based upon what was going on at the
45:23
Speaker 1: time of when this individual developed and early on. I
45:26
Speaker 1: mean that stamp is on us early on in our
45:28
Speaker 1: developmental stages, even in the womb, and so that's something
45:33
Speaker 1: that you carry with you and it's fascinating to me
45:36
Speaker 1: because this kind of blueprint that we have now through
45:39
Speaker 1: phenotyping is something that is changing the way we approach
45:47
Speaker 1: crime scenes and the way we approach unknown circumstances where
45:51
Speaker 1: some biological element has been left behind. It's like almost
45:55
Speaker 1: as if nature has given us the playbook, if you will.
45:59
Speaker 1: It's literally caused us to leap ahead light years as
46:03
Speaker 1: far as this technology is concerned. You take phenotyping and
46:07
Speaker 1: you combine that with the technology of a full on
46:12
Speaker 1: DNA profile, and you begin to look at familial connections
46:17
Speaker 1: where you have someone that has taken say their DNA
46:21
Speaker 1: and submitted it into an open source database for the
46:25
Speaker 1: purposes of genealogical study, where they're trying to determine who
46:29
Speaker 1: their ancestors were, their points of origin, and only sorts
46:32
Speaker 1: of things, who they're related to all of these and
46:35
Speaker 1: once you start to hit on those peripheral areas where
46:38
Speaker 1: if you have an individual that might have a third
46:41
Speaker 1: or fourth cousin out there that has submitted a sample,
46:44
Speaker 1: say a buckle mewcoastal swab that's gotten from inside of
46:47
Speaker 1: the mouth from the gum line, and they've submitted it,
46:50
Speaker 1: or maybe they've spitten a little tube and they've sent
46:53
Speaker 1: this off to be examined. Suddenly you've got a whole
46:56
Speaker 1: new world that opens up to you, because if you've
46:59
Speaker 1: got an unknown which in the case of Nancy Anderson,
47:02
Speaker 1: we have an unknown suspect here, an individual that we
47:06
Speaker 1: think was probably involved in it because we've got this
47:08
Speaker 1: blood sample from way back then, all of a sudden
47:13
Speaker 1: that that was very, very fuzzy for a long long
47:16
Speaker 1: time suddenly comes into focus. And in this case, that
47:20
Speaker 1: happened all the way across the board. It's it's almost
47:23
Speaker 1: like Nancy's case intersected with science at the right time
47:29
Speaker 1: where they were able to pin an individual down regarding
47:34
Speaker 1: their DNA makeup their genealogical profile, and boy did it
47:39
Speaker 1: pay off. It did. The link here came from, as
47:44
Speaker 1: you said, genealogy, and the link was found to be
47:49
Speaker 1: a son. Yeah, you're right, Jackie, it was the son.
47:53
Speaker 1: You know. You you know, when they began to look
47:55
Speaker 1: at the DNA profile that they had, they saw that
47:58
Speaker 1: through forensic genealogy they had a third or fourth cousin
48:02
Speaker 1: out here. They begin to do this study relative to
48:06
Speaker 1: the probability would be. And once you have that information,
48:12
Speaker 1: you can begin mathematically to narrow this thing down to
48:16
Speaker 1: a very fine point where you can go back and
48:19
Speaker 1: look for what are referred to as common ancestors. You know,
48:22
Speaker 1: if you have cousins, that means that you've got aunts
48:25
Speaker 1: and uncles that are connected. And then you take that
48:29
Speaker 1: narrow it down even further to where you have not
48:32
Speaker 1: just aunts and uncles, now now you have brothers and sisters.
48:36
Speaker 1: And when you begin to narrow it down to brothers
48:39
Speaker 1: and sisters, it come down to mom and daddy. And
48:42
Speaker 1: in this particular case, they were able to narrow this
48:45
Speaker 1: down so tightly that they zeroed in on this one
48:49
Speaker 1: young man and the authorities actually went to his home
48:52
Speaker 1: and said, we'd like to get a DNA sample from you.
48:56
Speaker 1: And of course the rationale was is that they believed
48:59
Speaker 1: that young man's father could potentially be the suspect they've
49:03
Speaker 1: been looking for for fifty years. That suspect ended up
49:07
Speaker 1: being Tutor Cilla, a former attorney living in Reno. It
49:13
Speaker 1: was discovered that at the time he was living in
49:15
Speaker 1: Hawaii in the nineteen seventies and he was a University
49:19
Speaker 1: of Hawaii grad assistant. And you begin to think about,
49:22
Speaker 1: you know, those old tomes that we go back to
49:25
Speaker 1: in investigations where we think about, you know, motive and
49:28
Speaker 1: opportunity and accessibility and you know, all of those sorts
49:33
Speaker 1: of things that kind of you know, play into this.
49:36
Speaker 1: At this point, we don't know what a motive would
49:38
Speaker 1: have been, and the police believe that this individual was
49:43
Speaker 1: involved in Nancy's homicide. And I think in this particular case,
49:49
Speaker 1: what happened was that the perpetrator actually sliced their hand
49:54
Speaker 1: or cut a finger, and as this occurred, there's a
49:59
Speaker 1: na troll inclination to grab the closest thing you can,
50:03
Speaker 1: in this case a towel and stem the bleeding and
50:08
Speaker 1: that's what he did. He took that towel, placed it
50:11
Speaker 1: around his hand in order to stop the bleeding, and
50:16
Speaker 1: when he did that, he sealed his fate. He transferred
50:19
Speaker 1: that droplet of blood to that towel that was preserved
50:21
Speaker 1: after all those years, and ultimately that provided them with
50:25
Speaker 1: a DNA profile. Rilla has been charged in Nancy Anderson's murder.
50:31
Speaker 1: This case has not yet gone to trial. I'm Joseph
50:38
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bags