Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / How Innovation & Thoughtful Collaboration Are Shaping the Future of Clinical Care

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How Innovation & Thoughtful Collaboration Are Shaping the Future of Clinical Care · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

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  Hello, everyone. This is Erica Spicer Mason with
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  Becker's Healthcare. Thank you so much for tuning
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  in to the Becker's Healthcare podcast series.
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  Today, we're going to talk about innovation and
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  thoughtful collaboration
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  and how these two concepts are shaping the
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  future of clinical care.
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  And joining me for this conversation,
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  we have with us Yaa Phelan, the senior
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  vice president and general manager of clinical decision
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  support and provider solutions
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  at Wolters Kluwer Health.
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  Yeah, it is great to have you back
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  on the podcast. Thank you so much for
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  joining Becker's today.
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  Thank you, Erica. Great to be here as
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  always.
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  Oh, again, great to have you. And for
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  any listeners who may be new to your
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  work, I'd love if you could share just
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  a little bit about yourself and your background.
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  And also in the spirit of our conversation,
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  what fuels your focus on advancing innovation and
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  transformation in health care?
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  Yeah. No. Happy to. I've, been
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  fortunate to be in health care my entire
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  career.
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  Amazingly, as I reflect on it, I actually,
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  stumbled on health care administration as an undergraduate
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  major.
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  And, you know, pretty early on, knew I
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  wanted to be in the health care industry.
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  My career has kind of these two big
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  eras, if you will.
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  You know, first, decade plus,
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  I was working with hospitals and health systems,
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  on the consulting side.
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  My area of expertise was surgical services, and
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  so I spent a lot of time, you
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  know, basically traveling the country. I've seen almost
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  every state because I've been to the hospital
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  or health system that's there,
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  really
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  figuring out how to put operational best practices
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  to to work and to drive outcomes for
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  hospitals and health systems.
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  And then really for the last, you know,
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  sixteen
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  or so years,
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  had a a big, career shift onto the
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  SaaS,
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  technology side of health care.
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  And so I've been focused on leveraging technology
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  to,
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  you know, help across a range of functions,
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  population health, now clinical decision support,
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  to put technology to use to drive outcomes
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  at scale.
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  And so, you know, in terms of kind
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  of what fuels me or or my focus
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  on innovation,
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  first and foremost, it's about how do you
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  get an organization to the
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  outcome that they're trying to achieve. I I
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  think that's been inherent, from my the early
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  days of my career. And, you
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  know, I I think what's unique about this
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  moment when you talk about advancing innovation
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  and transformation in in health care today,
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  I would argue across the last
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  two years, if I've if I've always been
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  very focused on how do you deliver outcomes
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  at scale,
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  the technologies that we're now working with and
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  and specifically some of the the work around
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  generative AI
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  have really unlocked,
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  you know, either challenges or opportunities, however you
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  wanna think about it, that we used to
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  think were too hard or off limits
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  or we where you couldn't kind of scale,
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  in a way to to meet the business
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  need.
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  So that
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  that's kind of what's what's fueling me right
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  now or or maybe not kind of, definitely
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  what's fueling me right now. It's, it it's
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  really how do we step into this new
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  era of technology
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  and, you know, take out outcomes,
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  and the, you know, mission and priorities and
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  goals of hospitals and health systems to a
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  whole new level in terms of what's possible
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  to be achieved.
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  Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing a
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  bit more about yourself and and some initial
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  thoughts on how you're looking at innovation and
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  transformation right now.
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  You know, your background in
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  the hospital administration
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  consulting space and then more recently in technology,
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  You have this really holistic perspective
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  on
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  what organizations need from an operational standpoint and
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  then the technology
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  that can support
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  those operations.
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  But you also raise this great point about
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  how we've entered this era of technology, especially
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  with
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  AI, where
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  we've unlocked,
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  as you said, challenges or opportunities that we
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  used to think were too hard or off
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  limits.
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  So what an exciting time. And
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  amid all of this excitement,
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  still health care organizations are, of course, facing
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  a lot of complexity as the pace of
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  innovation can continues to speed up. So,
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  Yeah. It
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  Yeah. It's it's such a great question,
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  and I, you know, I kinda wanna draw
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  out one of the the earlier challenges you
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  talked about, which is the the complexity.
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  And,
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  you know, if you think about the the
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  health care market right now, there's so much
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  opportunity. There's so much potential. There's so many
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  companies
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  that are,
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  you know, racing
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  to help, you know, customers,
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  solve solve a challenge.
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  And,
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  you know, I think that in and of
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  itself just represents
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  a form of complexity.
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  When you get into true
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  partnership
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  and, you know, kind of move beyond a
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  vendor or a a customer,
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  you know, style relationship,
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  what I have found, from a partnership perspective
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  is
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  that to be effective, you you have to
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  connect on,
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  you know, a couple of key dimensions.
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  First and foremost is mission.
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  You know, for any strong partnership,
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  is there a shared,
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  you know, mission and journey and, you know,
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  sense of, you know, the right way to
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  achieve the objective.
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  And and I think beyond that foundational piece,
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  it's
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  how do you then focus,
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  you know, given all the complexity, given all
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  the potential of things that you could do
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  around
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  the
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  priorities
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  and goals
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  of the organization that you're partnering with.
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  And
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  I I think it's actually that
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  focus
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  that translates
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  into
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  innovations having
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  a real world impact. Right? So you're aligned
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  from a mission perspective.
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  You sit down and you figure out, okay,
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  if we could only do three or five
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  or maybe 10 things because you can do
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  a lot with AI,
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  what is our focused list
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  of items?
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  And then, you know, with any good innovation
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  cycle, it's the the block and tackle to
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  go from
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  idea or concept
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  to an outcome. And, you know, I don't
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  think that's,
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  you know, an overly complex playbook. It tends
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  to be grounded in starting with a proof
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  of concept,
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  you know, figuring out how you scale.
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  But in in my experience,
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  you know, kind of true partnership,
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  you
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  know, you focus on those dimensions. You have
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  some of the hard conversations,
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  around,
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  you know, what's really important in terms of
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  the application of these,
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  opportunities,
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  and then you you turn that into an
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  impact.
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  Such great insight, Yeah. And I'm wondering with
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  all of that in mind, you know, we're
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  talking about aligning on mission,
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  blocking and tackling,
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  seeing how innovation will be able to scale.
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  Are there any recent collaborations
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  that Wolters Kluwer has
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  been involved in or maybe even you've seen
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  this elsewhere in the industry that you feel
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  showcase this approach, you know, how to successfully
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  scale innovation through an enterprise approach?
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  Yeah. No. This is probably the the most
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  fun that I'm having,
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  in my role right now is is, you
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  know, truly building deep partnerships
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  and, you know, collaborating on innovation.
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  I'd probably start on the industry sides.
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  We've announced
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  large
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  partnerships, in the Ambient space with, both, Abridge,
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  and Microsoft,
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  two of the the largest, you know, most
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  respected Ambient players.
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  You know, I I think it really does
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  follow the pattern,
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  from the your previous question, Erica.
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  We have mission alignment with those organizations,
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  and and they have mission alignment with the,
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  you know, the hospitals and health systems that
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  they serve.
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  We've
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  you know, worked really hard to focus on
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  a set of problems and pain points
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  where we feel like
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  both organizations
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  bring something unique to the table.
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  You know, in this case, you know, ambient
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  technology from those partners and on our side,
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  you know, proprietary,
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  trusted,
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  evidence based content for use at the point
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  of care.
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  And,
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  And then we've really kind of dug into,
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  okay,
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  how do you design a system and an
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  integration
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  of our two capabilities
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  that can generate
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  an impact and and outcomes. And,
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  you know, we we announced these partnerships across
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  the last, you know, six or so months,
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  or actually, we announced some some of them
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  previously. The products have come out across the
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  last six or so months.
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  But I think when you really step back,
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  you know, these are these are,
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  you know, collaborations that have been a year
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  plus in the making.
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  And so it does get into that true
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  innovation process and cycle. Right? How do you
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  do a proof of concept? How do we
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  learn to work together as two, you know,
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  different organizations with a shared mission?
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  And then ultimately, how do you build that
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  into a scaled product that gets released into
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  the world? And the what I'm excited about
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  is the reception of those products
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  has just been fantastic,
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  from our shared customers.
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  So I would say that's on the industry
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  side. A little bit more in the up
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  to date worlds,
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  we've been,
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  you know, really innovating in terms of putting
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  generative AI into our core product experience.
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  We launched our expert AI
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  capabilities,
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  you know, built on top of the core
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  up to date content last September,
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  And we've taken a very governance
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  partnership friendly approach with
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  large hospitals and health systems, and part of
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  that is making sure that,
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  you know, you do have the right transparency
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  and governance
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  processes.
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  And so, recently, we've launched with some of
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  the the largest,
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  you know, hospitals and health systems in The
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  US. Think of the biggest systems.
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  They've they've all been rolling this out.
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  And, you know, I think that collaboration has
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  just been so
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  critical. It's everything from,
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  you know, have we shown up to governance
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  committees and processes and demonstrated how we measure
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  bias in our products so that, you know,
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  our customers don't have to do it. You
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  know, two, you know, how do you introduce,
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  you know, thousands of users across a hospital
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  and health system to a generative AI experience?
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  Some folks are very comfortable using that for
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  clinical decision support.
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  Others,
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  you know, still want to, you know, learn
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  what are the best ways to prompt or
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  ask natural language questions.
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  And I just feel like we've had, you
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  know, tremendous
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  collaboration and partnership,
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  with our, you know, our hospital and health
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  system partners to figure out the the right
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  way, you know, to get these technologies into
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  the hands of of end users in a
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  governed,
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  environment.
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  Yeah. Great insights, and appreciate you sharing
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  what partnerships are meaning to you at the
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  industry level and then also in terms of
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  up to date and how you're collaborating with
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  hospitals and health systems.
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  And you just touched on
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  what it means to meaningfully have clinicians adopt
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  these tools in ways that are safe and
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  actually helpful for them, which we know is
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  so important because clinicians are essentially inundated with
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  data, new tools, competing information systems, and streams.
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  So how can how can innovative approaches such
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  as the partnerships you're touching on here help
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  to reduce that complexity for clinicians and ultimately
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  create more connected experiences that surface the right
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  information they need at the right moment in
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  care?
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  Yeah. It's a it's a great question, and
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  the complexity
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  in my experience and opinion can get out
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  of control pretty quickly if you're not careful.
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  I would bring it back to a couple
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  core basic principles or tenants.
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  The the first is
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  you need to be in workflow,
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  and you need to be in workflow
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  at the right
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  moment for
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  a clinical decision to be,
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  you know, meaningful
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  and,
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  appropriate.
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  Right? So,
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  you know, if you've got a physician and
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  you've got information
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  on
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  a medication
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  order
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  that would lead to a better outcome,
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  you can't present that information
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  after they've already gone through the workflow of
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  ordering
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  a prescription. That's just a basic way of,
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  describing it.
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  And, you know, back to some of the
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  partnerships, I think that's one of the reasons
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  why we're so
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  thrilled on the Ambient partnership side because
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  the Ambient workflows are are this kind of
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  new canvas and territory of of places to
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  be really
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  smart and seamless,
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  into clinician workflow.
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  So first and foremost, I think is, you
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  know, intersecting with work flow
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  in
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  the right
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  ways.
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  The second is that the information,
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  or
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  the insight, or the product that you're delivering,
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  you know, really needs to solve a a
• 14:00
  a problem.
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  And I almost chuckle when I say that.
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  You know, right now, I I do feel
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  like there's a lot of technology that is
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  in search of problems, and that's one of
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  the,
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  you know, the the cons of when you
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  you reach a point where there's so much
• 14:17
  technology information,
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  or innovation, I should say. But,
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  you know, how do you get more patients,
• 14:24
  you know, with managed blood pressure? Right? That
• 14:27
  is a real
• 14:28
  clinical outcome problem that needs to be solved.
• 14:31
  You know, how do you more efficiently,
• 14:34
  you know, provide,
• 14:36
  a referral or a consult for a patient
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  that needs one?
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  So grounding,
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  you know, all of the innovation around, you
• 14:44
  know, what's the
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  complexity or problem at a hospital or health
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  system, you know, how do you make sure
• 14:49
  that,
• 14:50
  you know, clinicians have timely information about about
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  the formulary or the antibi antibiogram
• 14:56
  for their hospital
• 14:58
  that should be referenced in the workflow of
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  clinical decision support.
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  So, you know, workflow,
• 15:04
  you know, real problem solving,
• 15:08
  And then, you know, I think at the
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  core is,
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  at least for us as a business is,
• 15:13
  do you also have a unique,
• 15:16
  you know, asset or set of insights
• 15:19
  that are worthy of those, you know, first
• 15:21
  two opportunities. Right? Being in the workflow, solving
• 15:23
  a problem.
• 15:24
  And for up to date, you know, we've
• 15:26
  got this
• 15:27
  proprietary
• 15:28
  set of content. It is
• 15:30
  edited and written by the world's foremost experts
• 15:35
  on how do you bring evidence based,
• 15:37
  you know, medicine to the point of care.
• 15:41
  And,
• 15:42
  so I think just being able to, you
• 15:44
  know, unlock those insights,
• 15:46
  is, you know, at least our our key
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  area of focus.
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  And when you get those things right, what
• 15:52
  I tend to find is the the complexity,
• 15:55
  and the, you know, competing information kinda kinda
• 15:58
  goes by the wayside. Right? Because you've you've
• 16:00
  hit
• 16:01
  the the the triple threat of opportunities.
• 16:05
  Absolutely.
• 16:06
  And, yeah, I know something that is central
• 16:10
  to Wolters Kluwer's approach is the the concept
• 16:13
  of trust. And so as you're seeing clinicians
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  adopt
• 16:17
  tools, especially tools that are driven by AI,
• 16:21
  what role are you seeing trust play in
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  determining whether clinicians ultimately embrace the tool?
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  Any best practices or insights you could share
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  there?
• 16:29
  Yeah. I I I mean, I think trust
• 16:32
  is the ultimate
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  thing. Right? And
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  to me,
• 16:37
  trust is an output or an outcome of
• 16:39
  something much deeper,
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  which is,
• 16:44
  do you have high quality
• 16:47
  information that enhances
• 16:49
  the decisions or experiences of a clinician?
• 16:53
  So I view trust as something that, you
• 16:55
  know, very much needs to be earned
• 16:57
  day in and day out.
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  And,
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  you know, I think
• 17:02
  trust
• 17:03
  in this innovation
• 17:06
  landscape is is so critical. Right? And one
• 17:09
  of the downsides
• 17:11
  of generative AI is it's going to give
• 17:14
  you a very, very confident
• 17:17
  answer,
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  and it's probably also gonna tell you what
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  it thinks you want to hear. Right? These
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  are, you know, kind of well documented
• 17:26
  patterns and challenges within generative AI.
• 17:30
  And so how do you,
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  you know, trust something that you know has
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  been,
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  you know, kind of programmed, if you will,
• 17:38
  to,
• 17:39
  you know, be agreeable with you and to
• 17:41
  get tell you what you wanna hear and
• 17:43
  to be very confident.
• 17:45
  And that's been a you know, that is
• 17:46
  a huge industry challenge.
• 17:49
  I I think that's been a really important
• 17:51
  part
• 17:52
  of our AI journey.
• 17:54
  We've basically infused
• 17:57
  our clinical logic and clinical reasoning
• 18:00
  and validation
• 18:02
  into our up to date expert AI
• 18:05
  experience.
• 18:07
  And
• 18:08
  what that's done is it it builds on
• 18:11
  the core trust. Right? People can trust an
• 18:13
  up to date topic because we show you
• 18:16
  the world renowned authors and editors and the
• 18:19
  peer review process
• 18:21
  that painstakingly
• 18:24
  we run day in and day out to
• 18:25
  make sure that that information is accurate.
• 18:29
  And so that's built a a foundation of
• 18:31
  trust, and and then the way that we
• 18:32
  are extending that with these new technologies is
• 18:35
  to put,
• 18:36
  you know, the clinical intelligence,
• 18:38
  the validation layers. We're actually just about to
• 18:40
  publish on our validation process and and results,
• 18:45
  you know, really,
• 18:47
  on on on top of the new technology
• 18:50
  so that ultimately
• 18:51
  we continue the pattern of of trust,
• 18:55
  and we can be the trusted source
• 18:57
  in a world that has
• 18:59
  different challenges and obviously different opportunities from where
• 19:02
  we've been operating. So
• 19:05
  I still believe trust is the thing. I
• 19:07
  believe trust is something you have to earn
• 19:09
  day in and day out,
• 19:12
  And, you know, I think
• 19:13
  clinicians will continue to embrace,
• 19:16
  you know, solutions
• 19:18
  that, you know, they know they they can
• 19:20
  rely on for their most important,
• 19:22
  decisions.
• 19:24
  Absolutely.
• 19:26
  And, yeah, before we we close our time
• 19:28
  together today, I wanted to be sure that
• 19:30
  we touched
• 19:31
  on AgenTic
• 19:32
  AI as well. I know a lot of
• 19:34
  our conversations so far has,
• 19:36
  centered on generative, but AgenTic is something that
• 19:38
  we're hearing more and more about from health
• 19:40
  care leaders.
• 19:41
  In fact, recent data shows that I think
• 19:44
  it's as high as eighty five percent of
• 19:46
  health care leaders plan to increase investment over
• 19:49
  the next few years in in AgenTic AI.
• 19:52
  So given everything that you've described about
• 19:54
  reducing cognitive burden, improving the care experience,
• 19:58
  where do you see AgenTic fitting into that
• 20:00
  picture, and what do you think leaders should
• 20:02
  be thinking about as adoption accelerates?
• 20:06
  Yeah.
• 20:08
  This was
• 20:09
  one of the
• 20:10
  the best topics,
• 20:12
  you know, at at the Becker's events was
• 20:15
  the conversation around AgenTic opportunities.
• 20:18
  It was, you know, great to connect with
• 20:20
  other health care leaders about where they are
• 20:23
  and are not experimenting,
• 20:25
  with agents. And and I always wanna be
• 20:27
  careful.
• 20:28
  You know, some of these things can become
• 20:30
  a little bit, buzzwordy. But, you know, from
• 20:33
  my perspective,
• 20:35
  agents are places where you've truly
• 20:38
  allowed the technology
• 20:39
  to make
• 20:40
  a decision. Right? It has agency to to
• 20:43
  perform a task.
• 20:45
  And so, you know, generally speaking,
• 20:48
  we're seeing a lot of experimentation
• 20:51
  on the administrative side, and particularly
• 20:57
  with decisions that
• 20:59
  are low risk.
• 21:01
  So think of how do
• 21:03
  you have an agent deployed that helps,
• 21:06
  you know, reach out and contact patients to
• 21:09
  schedule a a follow-up appointment.
• 21:11
  Now in some ways, that's low risk because,
• 21:14
  worst case scenario is that somebody that didn't
• 21:18
  have an appointment,
• 21:20
  or wasn't gonna have an appointment, you know,
• 21:22
  still doesn't make its way through the system.
• 21:24
  In other ways, it was, you know, fascinating
• 21:27
  in these conversations. Right? That is still the
• 21:29
  the brand of the hospital or health system
• 21:31
  that is starting to communicate through through the
• 21:33
  agent.
• 21:34
  And then on the flip side, you know,
• 21:36
  I think there's just a ton of potential
• 21:38
  for,
• 21:40
  you know, agentic tools,
• 21:42
  in higher risk scenarios. So when you're talking
• 21:45
  about, you know, real clinical decisions,
• 21:48
  and I think part of the value proposition
• 21:50
  there is that there are not enough clinicians,
• 21:54
  you know, for for the work or the
• 21:56
  amount of clinical,
• 21:57
  you know, workload that's out there to be
• 21:59
  done. One area that people talk a lot
• 22:01
  about is the shortage of pharmacists
• 22:03
  in the hospital.
• 22:06
  So, you know, I think there's tremendous
• 22:08
  promise.
• 22:09
  I think there is a whole range of
• 22:11
  challenges
• 22:12
  that need to be grappled with.
• 22:15
  We had a great conversation at Becker's about
• 22:18
  who supervises,
• 22:20
  the agents that are being deployed.
• 22:22
  There's some really smart podcasts out there these
• 22:24
  days around,
• 22:25
  you know, is there gonna be a a
• 22:27
  new role, you know, almost a vice president
• 22:30
  of HR that's in charge of agents.
• 22:33
  So how do you stay on top of,
• 22:34
  you know, what an agent's doing in the
• 22:36
  same way that you would, you know, manage
• 22:38
  or, you know, measure,
• 22:41
  you know, a more traditional employee?
• 22:43
  You know, how do you have
• 22:45
  validation
• 22:46
  frameworks
• 22:47
  that
• 22:48
  make sure that the agents are working
• 22:51
  towards the intended goals?
• 22:53
  Ultimately, I think there's a big regulatory angle
• 22:56
  that's kind of yet to come in terms
• 22:58
  of agent or AgenTic use in healthcare,
• 23:02
  and
• 23:03
  overall, we
• 23:04
  see AgenTic,
• 23:07
  you know, opportunities in clinical decision support as
• 23:09
  a very
• 23:10
  transformative
• 23:11
  opportunity. It's something that we're leaning into heavily
• 23:15
  within UpToDate,
• 23:16
  But at the same time, it it does
• 23:18
  raise the stakes in terms of quality, safety,
• 23:21
  governance, you know, supervision,
• 23:23
  you know, all of those things that, you
• 23:25
  know, it really takes to build trust and
• 23:28
  and ultimately high quality outcomes in terms of
• 23:30
  what you're trying to achieve.
• 23:33
  Yeah. An important note, Yeah, about how agentic
• 23:37
  AI certainly does raise the stakes when we
• 23:39
  think about governance,
• 23:40
  security,
• 23:42
  all of those considerations that it sounds like
• 23:43
  you had some really robust conversations about on-site
• 23:46
  at Becker's
• 23:47
  annual meeting. So glad to hear that the
• 23:50
  event spurred some insightful conversations there and,
• 23:54
  so glad that you were able to join
• 23:56
  us for this conversation, stay on the podcast.
• 23:58
  Before we wrap, is there anything else you'd
• 24:00
  like to leave listeners with, especially around innovation,
• 24:03
  what we've been talking about in regards to
• 24:05
  shared visions and thoughtful collaboration?
• 24:07
  Anything else that you think we should know?
• 24:10
  Erica, I probably come back to the same
• 24:12
  note every time we chat, and and I
• 24:14
  really appreciate you continuing to host and and
• 24:17
  have me on the podcast.
• 24:18
  This also came came across, I would say,
• 24:20
  loud and clear at the Becker's annual meeting.
• 24:23
  You know, in all of this AI hype,
• 24:25
  I still think it's critical to remain grounded
• 24:28
  on the human side of things.
• 24:31
  One of the best panel that joined at
• 24:33
  the Becker's meeting
• 24:34
  talked about the future of clinical leadership,
• 24:37
  and there were some great hospital and health
• 24:39
  system, you know, physician leaders talking about growing
• 24:42
  the next round of physician leaders.
• 24:45
  And they were talking
• 24:47
  about, you know, basically, what are the competencies
• 24:51
  from a physician leadership perspective that you'll need
• 24:54
  in the era of AI.
• 24:56
  And one of the, you know, more straightforward
• 24:59
  things was how do you you know, teach
• 25:02
  or lead an organization
• 25:03
  through developing,
• 25:05
  you know, prompt skills. Right? So,
• 25:08
  often how good a response you get from
• 25:10
  an AI tool or product or solution is
• 25:12
  based on how well you're able to prompt
• 25:14
  and interact with it.
• 25:16
  And ultimately, I think that's a, you know,
• 25:18
  that gets back to the humans. Right?
• 25:22
  There's a set of skills
• 25:23
  that we're gonna have to, you know, grow
• 25:26
  and build upon and develop or innovate
• 25:29
  to thrive and take advantage of all these
• 25:31
  opportunities.
• 25:33
  And I still think, you know, the
• 25:35
  not forgetting that we are in the the
• 25:37
  business of treating humans,
• 25:39
  you know, done for and and with and
• 25:41
  by humans. And so, you know, figuring out
• 25:43
  how you get them all aligned with the
• 25:45
  the new technologies and the AI systems, I
• 25:47
  I still think is probably the most important
• 25:49
  task at hand.
• 25:50
  Yeah.
• 25:51
  Well, appreciate you, Yaa, ending us on a
• 25:53
  grounded and human focused note. I think it's
• 25:56
  a really important point,
• 25:58
  for our listeners and, sounds like it was
• 26:00
  top of mind on-site as well.
• 26:03
  So just wanna thank you again for for
• 26:05
  making time for the conversation today. Again, it
• 26:07
  was great to have you back. Likewise. Thanks
• 26:09
  for having me. And we'd also like to
• 26:11
  thank our podcast sponsor for this episode, Wolters
• 26:13
  Kluwer.
• 26:14
  Listeners, be sure to tune in to more
• 26:16
  podcasts from Becker's Healthcare by visiting our podcast
• 26:19
  page at beckershospitalreview.com.