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The Accessing The Deep Unconscious with Deanna Chrones · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Five, four, three, two,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: and one. All right, folks, welcome back to the podcast.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Very excited to have as my guest today, Deanna Kronis. Deanna, welcome.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Deanna is the founder of Thalage and the creator
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of the Thalage Approach, a modality designed to help individuals
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: access and process trauma through body-based awareness and healing. Her
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: work emphasizes the connection between physical sensations, emotions, and unresolved
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: traumatic experiences, offering an alternative pathway to recovery that extends
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: beyond traditional talk therapy. Through training programs and workshops, she
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: teaches therapists and helping professionals how to recognize and work
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: with the body's innate capacity for healing. All right, Deanna,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: just a little bit about you before we get going,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: share with our listeners where you're from originally and where
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: you are currently.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Sure. Well, I was born in Chicago. I'm still in
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the Chicagoland area. I'm currently a PhD student at Northern
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Illinois University and I'm studying counselor education and supervision, and
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I have a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: from Northwestern University, which was a fabulous psychodynamic program. So
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I'm very focused on looking at the patterns that show
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: up in people's lives, and with a heavy foundation in
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: neuroscience as well. I'm trained in EMDR, and yes, in fact,
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  Speaker 2: I did come up with a somatic treatment for trauma,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: but it also addresses, of course, all the disorders that
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: are rooted in trauma as well. So all the comorbid things, depression, anxiety,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: pretty much anything that revolves around the suppression of emotions
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: can be helped with this. We don't ignore cognitions, though
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to say that as well. And I'm just
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: delighted to be here to talk to you a little
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: bit about what it is. All right.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: And we'll get into that. So just going back. So
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  Speaker 1: you're getting your Ph.D.
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  Speaker 2: In counselor education to become to become an educator in
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  Speaker 2: master's programs and potentially Ph.D. programs for counselors.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Wow. Interesting. OK, so how does this. starts for you?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: How does it, how does it all begin?
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  Speaker 2: Well, um, I, you know, I didn't always share this,
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  Speaker 2: but I've come to realize that it's important to kind
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: of tell people the personal road.
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  Speaker 1: That's what this is about, Deanna. It's not just about
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  Speaker 1: your work and your PhD and la da da.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. And it's, and there's no, and it's important too,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: to not attach shame to things that happen to us
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  Speaker 2: when we're children.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Or at any time. Believe me, I do it every day.
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  Speaker 2: Right. Right. Accidentally attaching.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: No, what, what's going, we're all got stuff going on.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: We all do. Anyway, go.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, I appreciate it. You're very welcome. So when
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  Speaker 2: I was growing up, I had a difficult caregiver who
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: was experiencing problems himself. It was my father. And you know,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: a good man in many respects, but struggling in others.
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  Speaker 2: And he could at times become quite violent and would
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: threaten the rest of us and himself. And so when
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I was an adolescent, just growing up actually from childhood,
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  Speaker 2: I always felt very responsible for him as the eldest child.
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  Speaker 2: So little Ed Larian insight there. You know, I just
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: felt like the caretaker of And even my mother would
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: say that to me years later. She would say, it
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: always felt like you were taking care of us. So
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: just a huge burden on my little tiny shoulders growing up.
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  Speaker 2: When I was 20, he and my mother divorced and
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: he ended up taking his own life, which was something
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  Speaker 2: he had always threatened to do. But he also threatened
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  Speaker 2: to take all of us with him. So in the
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  Speaker 2: moment that they told me what had happened, I screamed
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  Speaker 2: at the top of my lungs. And it just clicked
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  Speaker 2: somewhere in my head that it could have been all
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  Speaker 2: of us. And I knew that growing up. Right. It
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  Speaker 2: was a very significant event in my life. And in fact,
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  Speaker 2: I think of my life as like before that event
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  Speaker 2: and after that event, I'm sorry to say. And I
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  Speaker 2: developed PTSD without ever really even knowing what it was
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  Speaker 2: at the time.
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  Speaker 1: How old were you?
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  Speaker 2: I was 22.
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  Speaker 1: At that time.
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  Speaker 2: At that time. Yeah, I'm not 20 now, that's for sure.
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  Speaker 2: So it's a pretty, you know, it's a meaningful time
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  Speaker 2: in life when you're branching, going off into this road
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  Speaker 2: or that and making big decisions. And I continued on,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I kept moving forward in life. I was
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  Speaker 2: on the business track at the time and not in
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  Speaker 2: counseling or anything like that. But over time, I could
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  Speaker 2: just see that I was not myself. I was... not
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  Speaker 2: going out as much, not as outward focused. You know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm very extroverted. And a symptom started appearing for me.
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  Speaker 2: So I just basically struggled my way through life, but
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  Speaker 2: I would kind of pick up these pieces of information.
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  Speaker 2: Things like, you know, Freud said, depression is anger turned inward.
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  Speaker 2: And it turns out it's many other disorders as well.
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  Speaker 2: And of course, other emotions. And little by little, I
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  Speaker 2: started to notice that I didn't feel any anger my father.
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  Speaker 2: Not healthy anger, not rage, not anything. But people around
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  Speaker 2: me did. And it just clicked in my head that, wow,
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  Speaker 2: there's something to what I heard. Maybe I have reason
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  Speaker 2: to feel angry at him, but I just don't feel it.
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  Speaker 2: But I couldn't figure out a way to get in
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  Speaker 2: touch with it. And so honestly, if I'm candid, one
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  Speaker 2: night in the middle of the night, I just happened
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  Speaker 2: to be up, not sleeping and frustrated with this situation.
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  Speaker 2: And I lifted my eyes up and I noticed that
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  Speaker 2: I felt anger when I thought about my dad up
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  Speaker 2: toward him. And it was, you know, healthy, regulated anger.
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  Speaker 2: And it just all clicked. And the, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: more I looked into it, it turns out there is
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  Speaker 2: actually literature on the topic that if you hold the
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: eyes upward, 60 degrees actually was what was studied for
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  Speaker 2: at least 10 seconds, you can feel turn on things
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  Speaker 2: like the sympathetic nervous system and the emotional memory center
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: in the brain. So I just kind of started piecing
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: things together. I first became a certified hypnotist and then
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  Speaker 2: a counselor, and I started to utilize these techniques that
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: are rooted in the literature, plus some other things that
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  Speaker 2: I noticed, and just piece together something that, as it
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  Speaker 2: turns out, Guy, is Actually, we're engaging in something called
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: memory reconsolidation. And we can get into that, you know,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: in a later portion. But that's basically how I came
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: to this was to alleviate my own suffering. And it's
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: just been a remarkable, really exciting journey of helping other
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  Speaker 2: people and engaging with other therapists who are thrilled.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing that. Sure. You were lying awake,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: looking up, and you were able to get in touch
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  Speaker 1: with the anger you felt for your father.
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  Speaker 2: Basically what happens, they have neuroimaging, and I've gotten to
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: observe myself, actually, one small neuroimaging observation. When you lift
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: the eyes from straight ahead, this is zero degrees, to
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: 60 degrees, and you hold them there, you turn on
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which basically tells us a couple
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: of things that you have activated the sympathetic nervous system. Now, first,
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  Speaker 2: that's going to sound strange to a lot of people, right?
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  Speaker 2: Why would a therapist want to purposely put someone into
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: fight or flight? Well, of course, it's a controlled environment.
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  Speaker 2: The therapist is there. We teach many techniques for calming.
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  Speaker 2: But what actually also happens is that at the same time,
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  Speaker 2: We are activating a part of the brain called the
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: basolateral amygdala. Specifically, that's known as the part of the
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  Speaker 2: brain where the emotional component of big significant life events
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: are processed and stored. And often it's because of PTSD
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  Speaker 2: that they sort of get stuck. The hippocampus will process
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  Speaker 2: the facts of what happened in a significant life event.
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  Speaker 2: But the big emotions that go with it, that's the
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  Speaker 2: basolateral amygdala. So inadvertently, without knowing I had done so,
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  Speaker 2: I tapped into the ability to get into the unconscious
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  Speaker 2: and go and find all those creepy crawlies. But they
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  Speaker 2: have to be felt, right? This is not fun. We
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  Speaker 2: really are super careful. in Tholage to teach what we
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: call the anger continuum. So we kind of lay it
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  Speaker 2: over the window of tolerance, but I'll just keep it
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  Speaker 2: sort of straightforward here if I can, that at one
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  Speaker 2: end of this continuum is frustration, aggravation, irritability. Then we
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  Speaker 2: get into healthy, regulated anger, which is a good, fruitful,
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  Speaker 2: not pleasant, but fruitful, helpful emotion. But if it goes
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  Speaker 2: too high, of course, it could be rage. So we
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  Speaker 2: see people going back and forth, right? They're irritable, and
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  Speaker 2: then they're rageful. We see that very often. I think
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  Speaker 2: that's way more common than almost anything else than people
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  Speaker 2: living way down here or always up there. So it's
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  Speaker 2: just a way, it was just, it turned out a
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  Speaker 2: fortuitous thing. It was completely happenstance. I just, I'm somebody
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  Speaker 2: who notices. I've noticed some other things that are also
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  Speaker 2: part of Tholage and we'll talk about that and memory,
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  Speaker 2: memory reconsolidation. But that, in that particular instance, I was
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  Speaker 2: just like, oh, I'm getting in touch with something that
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  Speaker 2: was there and but was too scary to feel.
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  Speaker 1: Too scary to feel. Okay. So how do things unfold
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  Speaker 1: for you after this? What do you do? Are you,
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  Speaker 1: you said you're around 20.
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  Speaker 2: Oh no, I wasn't 20 when I noticed that. There
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: were years of suffering between his death. There were just
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: years of symptoms that were getting worse and And then
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  Speaker 2: when I noticed this somatic approach that would help me
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  Speaker 2: feel better and alleviate symptoms.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So how do things unfold after you discover this?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's what, when I started to realize this seems important, right?
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  Speaker 2: This is, I'm, I'm a curious person. I'm always reading.
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  Speaker 2: I had, as I said, I had been reading things
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  Speaker 2: Freud had said, pieced it together. And that's when I
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: first trained it. went and became trained as a certified hypnotist.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, there are much fewer restrictions. The ethical code
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  Speaker 2: is very short and succinct for certified consulting hypnotists. So
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  Speaker 2: I would utilize these, that technique and others that I
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  Speaker 2: have noticed that do other things, very different things with
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: my hypnosis clients. And they were like, this is insane.
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  Speaker 2: Like I'm dreaming about things I haven't dreamt about in years.
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  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about memories I haven't thought about in years.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe it's even like kind of more vivid and fleshed out.
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  Speaker 2: We're not trying to recall memories that weren't there, but
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  Speaker 2: we're just sort of able to see what dredges up.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: It's basically, thalage comes from a Greek word, which is thalos,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I'm Greek. And thalos is also, it's basically an entryway room,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: a room that you, like an antechamber or vestibule or
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: whatever you want, an entry room. And so I took
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: that route because that's where thalamus and hypothalamus come from too.
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  Speaker 2: Just to say, this seems to be an entryway to
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  Speaker 2: some deep unconscious things and making them up and help
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: to address them in the therapy room. I will say
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: we don't, I do want to add, we don't, we
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: tell clients not to use the, we call it an
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: eye lift, not to use the eye lift at home.
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  Speaker 2: That's how powerful it is. It really is activating and
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  Speaker 2: it really does help people feel empowered and strong and confident.
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  Speaker 2: And they do get in touch with healthy anger and
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  Speaker 2: it's super relieving for them symptomatically. We believe it also
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  Speaker 2: plays a role in memory reconsolidation and I know we'll
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: get there, but it's just super relieving and The thing
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  Speaker 2: I want to caution is one, we don't really have people,
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  Speaker 2: we don't have people use it at home, not really,
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  Speaker 2: we don't, because it's so powerful. And we also always
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  Speaker 2: talk with any therapist, because we only train licensed or
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  Speaker 2: pre-licensed therapists, not other folks, that we talk about the
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  Speaker 2: defense mechanisms that are in place, right? All the protections
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: that we all have put up to say, you know,
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  Speaker 2: maybe like in my case, I'll use myself as an example,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: when I was growing up and trying to keep him calm,
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  Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been a very good idea for me
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to become angry. And so I had to check my
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: own emotions at the door, right? They just couldn't come
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: out or we all could have been in danger. And
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: so there, that really does happen for clients. I have,
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  Speaker 2: I will even admit the lodge is very fast. I
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: always say the lodge is fast, but the unconscious is slow.
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  Speaker 2: So I, you know, the defense mechanisms do come back.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes there is re-traumatization between sessions as quick as this
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: treatment and helpful.
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  Speaker 1: As it is.
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  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes people will go, yes, I got so
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: much relief after that treatment. For instance, a client actually
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: said this to me, you know, she was able to
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: tap into healthy anger toward her mom. Her symptoms abated.
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  Speaker 2: It was an eating disorder, pretty severe and depression. But
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: then a couple of weeks later, she's like, Yeah, but
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: why would I want to be mad at my mom?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: So there's that rationalization that's constantly happening. So it's just,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: it's little by little, you know, awareness and the knowledge
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: so that they can understand themselves and their own patterns
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and their repetition compulsions and how fear fits into it.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: And we do address fear as well in the Lush.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm happy to talk about that too. All right.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So you started working with clients. You start to realize
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that you can integrate these other techniques or modalities. And
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: then at what point do you say, I'm going to
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: create my own? treatment modality. I'm always amazed by that.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: So you created your own, what do you call it?
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Treatment modality? I do. I mean, that's amazing. But how
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: do you do, how does one do that?
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I am inventive. I have a patent
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: pending on a device that I invented. I, you know,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I am not an engineer. So I worked with a
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: group of engineers. They did, you know, they built it.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I did not. They're listed on the patent as well.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: But that is my nature. I am an investment person.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I have a dance background, very creative, love to write.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: It just started all clicking together in my head, and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I structured it. And of course, it's rooted in the literature.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So there was a lot of effort to read and
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: read voraciously and absorb as much as I could. I
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: attended Northwestern got the master's degree in clinical mental health counseling,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: talked to my professors, worked with some amazing professors.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: But hang on, Deanna. So while you're doing that, are
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: you thinking, I want to create this modality? Oh, yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: And we initially called it RELEASE, R-E-L, and it was
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: in all caps. And we ended up not being able
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: to use it for legal reasons. But Release stood for,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: and I think I thought of this in like 2017
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: or something. It was a while ago. Repeated eye lifts
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: and exercises for accessing and stabilizing emotions. So it spells
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: release perfectly. When we found out we couldn't use it,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: that's when I switched over and twist and turned and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: made it into a process. I didn't want it to
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: sound like a drug, right? So many made up words
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: sound like pharmacological substances. So I didn't want that. I
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: really appreciate your interest in the process, the creative process.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: So it just kind of built itself. Initially, you know,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I was very focused on the eye lift. I didn't,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: now we have something that we add to the eye lift,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: which is called the somatic exercise position. And that's basically
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: just something that the client does at certain eye lifts
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: because you do a certain number of eye lifts in
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: phase one and you do a couple more, three more
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: in phase two. There are four phases to Tholage, the treatment,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: and I was just building this out. We augment the
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: eye lifts by having the client engage the core, the
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: large muscles of the body. So the core or the
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: glutes or the thigh muscles. as they're doing an eye lift.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So that might sound strange, but let me tell you,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: if someone, we have them do a few eye lifts
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and maybe the first time they're like, they will literally guide,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: they'll say, I'm scared. After they do the first eye lift,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: they're not there yet. There's repetition is needed because the
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: defense mechanisms are thick, right? They're big and powerful. So
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: then on the second eye lift, they're like, I noticed something.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I was kind of getting frustrated and Um, like then
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: maybe by the third one, we'll add the somatic work
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: to the eye lift. So they're like kind of tightening
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: their core and looking up and they'll come out of
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that one. We do them for 60 seconds in the treatment. Um,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: the literature says 10, but we, we need, we see
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the processing that's going on in clients while they're doing
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: the eye lift. So we've extended it and they'll come
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: out and they'll go, how dare he or whatever. And I'll,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: we'll lean into that with the client. What emotions are
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: you feeling? And where are you feeling them in your body, right?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Because we're trying to get them to integrate the different
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: areas of the brain that are responsible for these different things.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Hebb's law, neurons that fire together or wire together. So
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: we're trying to connect emotions, body sensations, and thoughts. And
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of course, you know how many people live in their thoughts, right?
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Intellectualize and they don't know what the emotion feels like.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So it's easy to keep pushing it down.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. so you you are excited about this process of
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: releasing emotions you're doing all this reading you're studying you're
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: going to school getting this education and At what point,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: how did you fill out this? Okay, great. We can
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: access emotions. I can access emotions. Now what? What was
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: your idea?
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Well, initially I worked with a professor and she and
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: I said, let's do, you know, I was using it
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: with clients, but I wasn't teaching it to other clinicians.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And if you, at the time, and if you look
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: at the literature, as long as something is even though
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: we're not yet an evidence-based practice, we don't have enough
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: clinical trials, we are rooted in existing studies, existing literature.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And so she and I conducted two different clinical trials
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and it was really exciting up through the University of Wisconsin.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: And she's an amazing researcher. Dr. Gina Martin is her name.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: And we did two trials. And so little by little,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: The trials, we initially trained like 12 people, but to
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: work with clients and use what was called Release at
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: the time, Volage now, and to collect data. But really,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: there was a lot of attrition. It was the very
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: first study. It ended up being mostly me, right, with
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: my clients. I think I provided like 12. subjects for
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: the study and Gina, Dr. Martin provided one and another
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: clinician provided one. So that was just the, you know,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the pilot study. Then we repeated and we trained, gosh,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: closer to not quite a hundred clinicians. And we got,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: we stepped out of it at that point, right? Because
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: it's not, The less involved I am, the better in research, right?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Even though I love research, it's always going to have
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a bias if it's me, because I'm the one who
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: thought about it. And now I sell training, so you
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: have to be very careful with conflicts of interest. So
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: in the second one, Dr. Martin stepped out, I stepped out,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: and we just had other people collect data. We had
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: 63 subjects in that one, so bigger than 14 people.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: And we saw the same results. We were measuring just
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: for symptoms. We weren't looking at neuroimaging or the memory
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: reconsolidation that I've mentioned. But we were measuring, in the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: first study, we measured for depression, the Beck Depression Inventory,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and for emotion regulation using a different assessment. And then
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: we used two assessments for those things, plus measured for
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: PTSD and anxiety using Beck Anxiety. inventory and we just
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: saw large effect sizes in every area. PTSD frequency, large
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: effect size, severity, large effect size, anxiety, large depression, large
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: emotion regulation, large effect sizes. So now I'm a student
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: and I can conduct, I'm a PhD student, so I
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: can conduct my own research. And we were just approved
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: by the IRB at Northern Illinois University and We're going
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: to do the third clinical trial and we're going to
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: measure for those same things. And this time though, we're
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: not just, I should be clear. We, in the first
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: two studies, just to keep it very like coherent, we
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: just studied the eye lift and the somatic exercise position.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: We did not look at a whole other protocol that
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Tholage includes, which is really equally novel and it involves something,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: if you've ever heard of ASMR or autonomous sensory meridian response,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I also noticed at a different point in my life
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: that there were certain somatic movements and mentalizations I could
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: do that would initiate that tingling sensation in the brain
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: and the body that occurs with ASMR, but without the, the,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: current routes that people use to get there. So no audio,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: no video clips, no physical touch, and it just feels fantastic.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It just makes a huge difference. The two protocols, the
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: ASMR protocol is very parasympathetic. It's very calming. People use
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: it to sleep. It does some physiological things that, you know,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: are a bit outside the scope for clinicians, but It helped,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I had a client, I mean, I'm okay saying this,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: even though it is a little bit, it is outside
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the scope. I had a client with severe PTSD and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: agoraphobia and many symptoms, had not exactly the same situation
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: as me, but something parallel, we'll say a very significant
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: loss of life in the early childhood, was vomiting every
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: day from anxiety, not purposeful as an eating disorder, but unwanted.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: had multiple surgeries, nothing was helping this client. I taught
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: them the ASMR exercises. They started using them all throughout
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: the day. And all of a sudden, one day out
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: of nowhere, the client just said, you know, I stopped
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: throwing up because of those exercises. And if you do
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: look at the literature, there is evidence to say that,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: you know, it's anti-inflammatory. It affects the digestive tract. So
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: it's very exciting that it helps people. But again, that's
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: a little outside the scope. It's just very soothing. It
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: helps people sleep, relax, and calm themselves. All right.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Let me kind of just interject here as we do
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: kind of wind down here. So with the Lodge, this
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: is a, I'm looking at your website now, a neuropsychotherapy training.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Who is it for?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: It is for licensed and pre-licensed clinicians only. Therapists, psychologists, counselors,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: marriage and family, social workers, et cetera. Doctors, if they want, yes.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. And just to be clear here, as you say here,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: a self-empowered way to rewire traumatic memories. So it's another
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: treatment modality, basically.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yes. In a nutshell, because I know we are at
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the end, All of the exciting eye lift, the activating techniques,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: they engage in one of the steps of memory reconsolidation
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: and the calming exercises engage in a different step. And
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: so does the accessing of emotions. Those actually are the
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: three steps of memory reconsolidation. So it's very difficult to
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: rewire trauma memories. It's very easy to rewire regular memories.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: And these really unusual techniques of purposeful activation of the
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: sympathetic nervous system Help us do that in the therapy room.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: So quite novel, and we're excited about it.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned at some point somatic exercises. Talk a
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: little bit more about that. Are you bringing in the somatic,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and to what degree are you bringing in the soma
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: into this treatment?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, very significantly, actually. So are you asking about the
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: ASMR or the more activating ones that I referenced?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Whichever. Where does the somatic come into play here?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: So we don't do somatic work in the sense of
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: acting out traumas that have happened. That's a different field.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: We don't do that. We are using the body and
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: things that humans do naturally to release specific chemicals for
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: specific purposes. The main purposes are for the accessing of
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: emotions and for the rewiring of memory so they feel
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: they sort of live differently in the body. So you
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: could think of the same trauma and instead of being
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: overwhelmed and fearful and afraid to go anywhere or do
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: anything and the heart beating or racing or whatever might happen,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: suddenly there is a healthy confidence and anger, strength, and
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: a calmer body. So in the eye lift portion, we're
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: just tightening a muscle. That's it. In SMR exercises, there's
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: a whole host of them that we teach people and
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: clients have their favorites, but it might be, for instance,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and it's very subtle, but it could be just gently
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: squeezing the shoulder blades together, like isolating them. So somebody
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: wouldn't even know you're doing it. Kind of the way
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I think of it is that they're just manipulating, moving
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: around the spinal column is actually using your muscles and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: your breath to just gently move. And there's something about
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: that probably because the literature says, if you focus your
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: mind on a specific part of the body, you can
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: actually engender ASMR. And so you're releasing oxytocin and dopamine
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: and endorphins. And we use those chemicals for the process
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: of memory reconsolidation, which we talked about a little bit,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: but also just to feel good.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: All right. Um, Thalage neuropsychotherapy training. How do people learn
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: more about you, Deanna? What's the best way?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I would love it if they would go to thalage.com.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: So that's T-H-O-L-A-G-E.com. And you can learn, you know, see
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: which trainings we have coming up. If you're interested in training,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: we also do something called lunch and learn. So we'll
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: teach a little bit about the more about the neuroscience
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: than I talked about here. Um, And we'll actually lead
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: people through part of the treatment, not the whole treatment.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: And then they tend to sign up for the training.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: after that. So we have those up sometimes as well.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Okay. We'll have all that linked up here at the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Deanna, appreciate you. Appreciate
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: you coming on here and sharing your story and really inspiring.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Look at you.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: It was a pleasure to be here. You're very easy
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: to talk to. Thank you so much.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. All right. Take care.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Bye-bye.