Latest / HEW Talks Podcast / Creating Room at the Table w/ Dr. Renee Branch Hill

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Creating Room at the Table w/ Dr. Renee Branch Hill · HEW Talks Podcast

• Dr. Pascale: Hey good people, it's Dr. Pascal with another episode of Hue Talks. Today I'm excited to share my conversation with Dr. Renee Branchill, where we largely discuss her book, Room at the Table: A Leader's Guide for Advancing Health Equity and Justice. Dr. Hill is the CEO of Michigan Public Health Institute, a Michigan-based nonprofit public health institute dedicated to working to center equity, promote health, and advance well being for all. She is recognized as a groundbreaking leader and researcher in health inequities, disparities, cultural competence, and social justice. She serves on numerous national boards, review panels, and advisory groups for institutions. Hoping to better understand, internalize, and activate equity, justice, and change. In today's episode, we explore the concept of productive outrage, what it means to think differently, to see, say, and do differently, and so much more. This conversation could not be more timely. During a time when equity is under attack, Dr. Hill reminds us that leading with equity takes courage. it means taking up space and making room at the table for voices that have too often been left out and staying committed to the work even when it's uncomfortable, especially when it's uncomfortable. Whether you're a public health professional, a community leader, or someone who simply cares about creating a more healthier, more just and equitable world, there's something in this conversation for you. I walked away inspired and I think you will too. Let's get into the conversation. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Welcome to Hue Talks Podcast. My name is Dr. Pascal Edward, and I am the host of Hue Talks. And I am so excited to have with us today Dr. Renee Kennedy. Dr. Renee Kennedy is doing amazing work in the health, equity, and justice space. And I'm so excited to have her on our podcast today to discuss her journey in this work and then also discuss her book, Room at the Table: A Leader's Guide to Advancing Health Equity and Justice, and how the concepts and principles of that book can be applied to Our current climate in the United States when it comes to social justice and equity. So welcome, Dr. Kennedy. How are you today? Dr. Renee Canady: Great, doctor Edward. How are you? Dr. Pascale Edouard: I am wonderful and looking forward to having this conversation with you. So let's Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah. Me too, me too. Dr. Pascale Edouard: jump in. jump in with like, you know, our opening question, if you will. and Dr. Renee Canady: Okay. Dr. Pascale Edouard: so that opening question is, so you've been in this health health equity space for what? 20 plus years. Dr. Renee Canady: Thirty plus years. Shy of forty. Next year is forty years. Dr. Pascale Edouard: 30 plus years. So you've been doing this work in this space for a a long time, about 40 years, right? So I want you to kind of think back about how you got into this work and like what was a defining moment in your life that first made you realize equity and not just access was the real issue and spark your interest interest and career in the fight for equity. Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. yeah. Well, you know, I will say that my first professional role post college, right? Was in the mid eighties, in the midst of the HIV AIDS epidemic, back when we started out calling it grid, right? Gay related immune deficiency. Then we switched to HTL V three. All these things, all these words and norms we didn't know. Really, what we were doing. So, from a professional space, my very public health career was ignited in this milieu of need and access, and what does that mean? But I will tell you when you said my earliest memory. And sometimes memories are experienced and sometimes memories are made. And I'm just gonna tell a little story that my mother would tell about me all the time because she would say it was characteristic of who I was and that I had been this way a long time. So when when I have an older brother who's about two years older than me, and we used to live in an apartment building, and one morning my brother heard his tricycle. Being ridden in the hallway because his tricycle was really squeaky. And he was like, That's my tricycle. So if he was like five or six, I don't know how old you are Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: when you're riding a tricycle anymore. I was two years younger than that. And my mother said, I with great indignation put my hand on my hips and said, I'll get your tricycle, Johnny. And I went out the door and said, That's my brother's tricycle. And so this Intolerance of things that cause pain to others has been sort of an inherent part, I guess, of who I am. Because like my mother didn't say, Renee, be a a Shiro and go get the tricycle. But my brother had just as much access to walk out the same door to go retrieve his possession. But what was it? That prevented him from doing that. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: And what were the systemic issues that caused the problem from the beginning? Right? Why was Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: there not better settings for storing toys in a protective space? And so rather than saying, well, he should have been bolder. No, the system should have prevented the problem in the beginning. And then why is Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: there someone that maybe has the audacity to step in? Because we need people who have the audacity Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: to step in. And as I began using that early design lens in my professional career, I was always just struck w with what I can only describe as outrage at the Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: way people were treated simply because of who they were. This innocent victim. Mentality that if you Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: became sick because of this, you were okay. But if you can't became sick because of this, you weren't okay. No one Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: gets up and says, Well, today what am I gonna do? let's see, let's contract a terminal disease. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: Nobody is doing that. So, how dare us compartmentalize humanity and the issue of not only accessibility. availability is really more in my mind about accountability. What are we doing as a system to make sure that regardless of who you are, where you are, that you still can easily have access to the things you need to be your healthiest Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: best self? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. So I'm hearing you say, well, the way I interpret what you're saying is, Hey, courage. You've always been bold and courageous and standing up for others, when it comes to, you know, them being treated unfairly from your brother, you know, standing up for him at two, and then also thinking about how those who back in your day when it was called grid, you know, were mistreated when trying to get the help that they needed. for their health and everything. Okay. So, you know, from these experiences, I'm assuming these experiences helped, you know, maybe drive the need to write the book, right? You know, Room at the Table, Lead a Leader's Guide to Advancing Health, Equity, and Justice. what led you to writing this book thinking about like, you know, during the time like because your book was published in 2023, right? And so from 2020 to 2023, This was like what we called like, you know, the racial uprisings. What led you to writing this book? And what do you think? what did you have that was different to say compared 'cause Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: everybody was on the bandwagon with H E I, r you know, racial injustices. What did you think at that time that you had was different to say compared to everyone else who was in this space? Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah, I think in many ways I was not maybe I was led to write the book, but it was external leading. you know, as as a person of faith, I really think sometimes things align for our lives. Not everything, but many, many times things align. And and when I made the choice to write the book, it was after a couple of weeks of numerous people in my life, students, mentees, colleagues, all asking me, Have you ever Thought about writing a book? You should write a book because you say these things in a way and I'm trying to take notes and I can't remember it. It'd just be great to Dr. Pascale Edouard: Ha ha. Dr. Renee Canady: have a book of Renee isms, they would call them. And I'm like, what on earth? but so many people had said that in this one span of time that I was sitting in my office and I just sort of looked up and said, Well, I mean, it whatever whatever is that line where the the actor says, I don't know. About birthing no babies. And I was thinking, I don't know nothing about writing no books. And I just said sort of flippantly, well, you know, God, if I'm supposed write a book, you better send help, because I don't know how to do that. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: and literally, I kid you not, the next week I got an email from a publisher that said, Dr. Pascale Edouard: wow. Dr. Renee Canady: We we are seeking charismatic leaders with a subject matter expertise. And we noticed your online presence and wondered if you would speak with us. And I'm like, get out of here. Dr. Pascale Edouard: That was God. Dr. Renee Canady: Woo! I said, ask and you shall receive. What? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Amen. Dr. Renee Canady: So I did. I called them and there began the journey just unexpectedly, suddenly, but are we? Every day prepared for the sudden lease in our lives, I believe we are. When you sit down and you go, man, why did I have to go through that? Or that was awfully hard, or that was Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: miserable. No, no, no. That's preparation. You don't know for what yet, but that is preparation. So that's how I got on this bandwagon to writing this book. I was sort of pushed slash led into Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: it. Dr. Pascale Edouard: I think that's commendable because I think people you you know how well God places people in your life the kind of a plant those seeds and like those seeds are watered, then then you eventually go to God and like, okay, God, here I am. So I think it it Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: speaks to the impact and the magnitude of the work that you were doing prior to writing the book for those Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: individual for God to send those individuals to speak those words to you that led you to writing the book. So I love that for you. so I I wanna think kind of talk about like I guess like during the racial uprisings, it seemed like everyone, including companies, wanted incorporate DEI initiatives, right? within their organizations. Dis I distinctly remember at the time, I think it was twenty two twenty nah, it was still in Bradenton at the time. So it had to be twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. Right. And I remember having conversations with like, you know, individuals and organizations that I belong to about like what's the true intent of all these DEI initiatives, right? and so I I wanted to pose that question to you, just thinking about that time. What do you think was the intent behind the DEI initiatives? And do you believe they were genuine or quick fix band-aids, if you will, in response to the racial uprising period? From twenty twenty to twenty twenty three. Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Such an important question. let me give you a little bit of contextual reflection. we have, I have my entire career done equity and social justice work. We didn't always call it that. We didn't call it that when we were doing HIV work, but that's exactly what it was. And so Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: I remember in a role that I held at Michigan State University around equity and justice, whatever we were calling it, I think we called it. minority support system. I don't know what Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: you called it then. but we've always used lots of different words, right? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: And all of a sudden I started noticing Boy, lots of spaces, please people are saying diversity. I remember walking by a conference room and hearing this dialogue, this conversation, this meeting about, and they were saying diversity. I'm like, my gosh, I'm meeting a missing a meeting because nobody talks about this stuff unless I'm in a room. I go running to the dean's office. No, it was the nurse practitioner's meeting. And I'm like, it's catching on. Like people are beginning to think. So, same thing with the word equity. It seemed like all of a sudden people kind of did a word search in the computer and said replace all, searched for diversity and just replaced it with equity, even though those Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay. Dr. Renee Canady: words mean completely different things. And I started saying to people, everybody's saying equity don't mean equity. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: My grandmother, my beautiful southern grandmother used to say, baby, everybody grinning ain't tickle. And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: I started saying, Baby, everybody saying equity, don't mean equity. Y'all better try these folk. Try the spirit, look at the heart and see do they mean what they mean. And so unfortunately, you know, I think even then, before that summer of social unrest. People were saying it because quite candidly the cool kids were saying it. Well, everybody's saying this. when you're doing things Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: at a very shallow, slightly opportunistic level, then it's like, yeah, don't say don't say cultural competence anymore. Now we say cultural humility. Do we? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Humility. Yep. Dr. Renee Canady: Are you sure? Because you don't sound very humble saying it. so people were just saying equity because that they wanted to be hip, they wanted to be smart. But they didn't really want to do the heavy lift. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: And I think that same spirit of disingenuousness was what we saw manifesting in the market. And so people were like, yeah, okay, let's do this DEI thing. I mean, there are wonderful studies now that have analyzed how many corporations actually made good on their commitment. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: either their financial commitments or their social commitments. And we saw that talk is cheap. They didn't expend the dollar. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: And so for public health, which is a profession that was created to serve those who had less, what were we doing as a field? Now this is the time when who we say we are can be demonstrated. And Many of us were uncomfortable. Like we knew what we should be doing. we were actually okay talking the talk. We were good at chalking the talk. We'd write and publish about it. But when it came to walking the talk, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yep. Dr. Renee Canady: really, really hard. Again, that issue of courage. Are you willing Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: to say the same the thing that no one else in the room is willing to say? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. And I think like we're also well, when the executive orders came out this term I think, you know, we also I think that also was proof as far as like who was really in it to be in it or who just jumped on the bandwagon but because everyone else was doing it. 'Cause I know organizations like, you know, as soon as like, you know, Trump got into office, they pulled back. Like he wasn't even ignorated yet. Literally. pulled everything off of their websites, dismantled their equity Dr. Renee Canady: yeah. Dr. Pascale Edouard: programs. And I was just like, wait a minute, what is going on? Are y'all the same people? Dr. Renee Canady: And and I think some of hey, right, right, right. Who this some of that I think was relief, like, good, we don't actually have to do this anymore. And some of it was fear. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: I don't want to get in trouble. but all of us were faced with a choice. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: and what does what did to thine own self be true look like in that environment Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: of hostility? and Clearly, consequences a result of standing our ground. And so it's tough. It was tough for me as a leader of a nonprofit that was 90% funded by federal dollars. It was tough Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: as for me as an author that has those words. And you better believe I you don't get to courage, you don't start at courage. You journey to courage through fear. That's why they call it courage, because you're doing it in spite of the fear. And there were many times when I thought about, man, you know, are they coming for me because of what I said in the book or what I wrote? And there's no denying that. How do I protect the many, many lives I'm entrusted to employ safely? But how do we do that in a way where my team doesn't feel like, you're just settling and you're compromising and you're surrendering to them and just giving Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: the words. No, I'm being strategic and I'm discerning. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yes. Dr. Renee Canady: I'm using wisdom based on what I've learned in the past to determine Dr. Pascale Edouard: Makes sense. Dr. Renee Canady: what's the way forward. And so unapologetically, yeah, we tweak some words because I know, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: based on my career start, you can do justice work without ever saying justice. Let's Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yes. Dr. Renee Canady: focus on doing the work. And then we'll resurrect different words. I hope we'll have a completely different vocabulary after Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: this administration has forbidden us or actually has sort of undertaken this linguicide, which is a strategy of oppression, killing words. Once we survive that, then what how do we move forward to the Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: next iteration of action and how do we communicate Dr. Pascale Edouard: Makes sense. Dr. Renee Canady: that? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. I'm looking forward to when that time comes. I think both you and I I can speak for for when that time Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah. Dr. Pascale Edouard: comes. So I I wanna move on and just like, you know, focus on your book, right? 'Cause you laid out a lot of great concepts at Room of the T Room at the Ta table. so in your book you introduce and discuss various concepts addressing what it means to be a health equity leader. among the concepts discussed is productive outrage. Can you describe this concept and what productive outrage looks like in today's anti-DEI, anti-people of color climate? Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, I think there's sort of two quotes in the in the common vernacular for me that help identify what productive outrage is. And one of them is I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. Dag Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: on it. enough enough is enough. And the other, as I was writing, The this quote came to mind before I even remembered whose quote it was, right? I was thinking, that's all I can stand, and I can't stand no more. So sometimes in my talks I'll ask people, whose quote is that? And people will say things like, is that Souljourn of Truth? Is that Fanny Lou Hamer? Is that they'll list all these powerful black women and I'll say, No, actually it's Popeye. Yeah, the sailor man. Papa the sailor man. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay. Dr. Renee Canady: Well I can't stand and I can't stand no more. And he usually said it after Olive was being picked on or somebody was being treated. Inequitably, right? And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: say, okay, I'm about to eat the spinach because I need some strength. And we're going after this person. And I love, I get just deep joy at the fact that no, it was a white man's quote resonating in my mind. So you don't get off the hook. Nobody gets off the hook. Race, class, gender, economic, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Dr. Renee Canady: we're all In this, he was a sailor, working class, he wasn't some big executive, he was a Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: man. So, even in your privilege, religious privilege or economic privilege, we all have to just get to the point where this is ridiculous. How Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: dare we see the humanity, the humanity of individuals around us being accosted. And not be willing to say something. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. It it's it it's tough. 'cause I think we're at a position where you well, I guess I think about like not even what's going on in the United States, but what's going on in Palestine, right? And ev I think a lot of us have eyes to see, ears to hear, and to see that what's going on in Palestine is not good. It it's injustice, it's in oppression. i it it's everything that's evil, I think, right? To completely wipe out a group of people through genocidal actions, right? And people are speaking up. And I think to your point, it is a human the human reaction to speak up. But because of those who are in power and who are privileged, there is that fear. Like I'm thinking about what's going on right now with Mac Lamore. Right. He's speaking up against it and he's being chastised or, you know, because of it. and I think maybe that it might be a reason why people don't speak up about it because like what am I gonna get taken away? But I think it co goes back to that but we talked about courage. Courage in spite of the fear courage in spite of what might happen. knowing that you stood on the right side of history. but yeah it Dr. Renee Canady: Well, it's it is a pattern. I'm a medical sociologist by training. If you look at I was just meeting today with a colleague who spoke and went to Poland to speak, if you look at the history of the Jewish nations in Poland and what they experienced at the hand Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: of Germans. What Palestinians are experiencing at the hand of Jewish people, what South Africans experienced at the hand of the Afrikaners. It is this Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: bizarre pattern of hatred. That Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: continues to perpetuate. I don't know what the solution is. I'm a public health person. I want to prevent things, but if I can't prevent them at the primary source, I need to be equipped and ready to prevent them at the secondary or tertiary source. And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: so we do a lot, and I use this methodology that we describe as facilitated dialogue. Sort of a come let us reason together. There's a translation Dr. Pascale Edouard: Gotcha. Dr. Renee Canady: of that Bible verse that says, Come, let's argue the matter out. Arguing and disagreeing does not have to end and damage relationship. How do we Dr. Pascale Edouard: Gotcha. Dr. Renee Canady: do that in a way that honors who you are and where you are? And quite candidly might draw me closer to you or draw you closer to me. But there's the hearing. of the matter that we just refuse to do in in one chapter of the book I talk about the little meme we would call it now of the three monkeys where it's like speak no evil see no evil hear no evil don't tell me don't tell Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: me and stop we you mentioned yes we do have eyes to see and courage is a personal personal journey Are you allowing that outrage to build enough in you that you're saying, I just I have to say something? I am co-chair of a new organization called Vision 2065, which really was established by some millennial, audacious, powerful, young African-American folk of faith. And it's this indignation to say, Well, what will we do? Because quite candidly, my generation got a little bit comfortable. And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: we I think dropped the ball at the very least we let off on the pressure. So now the 30, 40 year olds are like, okay, let's try to clean up some of the mess that you made. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: But what I noticed we went to a a retreat at in Montgomery at all of the memorials and the museums, powerful experience. And I looked at a picture of Dr. Martin Luther King, and it was the first time I looked at that picture and I said, he was really young. Really Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: young. Early 30s, late 20s, when all he was young. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: But they're also like the Reverend Abernaffy that was right there. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: you know, kind of the elder, the young elder helping, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: right? Not trying to take credit, not trying to lead the way. And so I think each of us on our professional journey have to figure out what's my role now, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: based on who I am and what I know. And it's really okay to be the wind beneath someone's wings if you're not Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yes. Dr. Renee Canady: the one flying. But we all have this role. And I think right now That's all that's happening in our own nation and in nations around us moan and groan for us to do something. One Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: of my favorite Martin Luther King quotes says, You know, I have the audacity to believe that people everywhere can have three meals a day, health for their bodies, hope for their spirits. I can't remember it precisely, but he just says. I have the audacity to believe that that can be. We're not asking for exorbitant things. We want Dr. Pascale Edouard: Ryan. Dr. Renee Canady: people to be safe. We want people to be whole. Dare I say we want people to be loved? And what would Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yes. Dr. Renee Canady: I be toying lately on, what would a critical love theory look like? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: We're fighting critical race theory. We don't even know what it is. Okay, well, what would a critical love theory look like? look like. And we're not talking about romanticism, right? But to deeply respect, honor, appreciate, even adore humanity, the creation Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: of humanity. That is where we begin, I think, to turn things around. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Is that the second book, Doctor Kennedy? Dr. Renee Canady: Don't you start? Don't Dr. Pascale Edouard: You didn't have to say anything. Dr. Renee Canady: start no mess, won't be no mess. Dr. Pascale Edouard: If it is, I am looking forward to another thing that you also discuss in your book is what it means to think, see, and do differently, right? is it means to is a means to advancing health equity. so considering today's climate where racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia are pervasive, how do we get to a place where people are thinking differently to see, say, and do differently? Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. it is a journey and a personal commitment because you don't know what you don't know, right? So having an a hope open heart to learning first Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: says, you know what, maybe I do need to clean my glasses. Maybe I'm not seeing 2020. Am I the only one that am I the outlier? If I'm the outlier, what am I missing? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: A willingness, right? Head, heart, and mind to say, okay, let me learn some things so I can think differently. I can see things differently. And then, yes, we begin to say things differently. We all have words that probably we said that was not a very nice word. I shouldn't use that anymore. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: In my house with my three boys when I was raising them, I would say no S words. Because they would say stupid and shut up and sucks, ugly words. and of course the SH you know, you can't say that Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: word in my house. So they would, you know, what are the words that I should not be using anymore that I should use differently based upon what I've seen? I have a different worldview, I have a different mindset. wow. I'll tell you, this is a simple analogy. I used to have some real opinions. about people that had tattoos. Even all the way to being a health officer. And I'm like, you know, we we had to inspect the tattoo shops, which was the division of body art. Like body art? That's part you know, if I saw a group of men and they had tattoos, I'm rolling up my window, I'm locking my what is it in me? This is not about them. This is about me. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: Now If I'm gonna have an attitude with folks that have ink and body art, I ain't gonna have no friends because everybody I don't have one yet, but everybody has them. but that was a real growth space for me. And it's a benign example because it's less embarrassing than for people to talk about the deeper biases Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: and isms that invade their brain. So if I begin to See differently, then I can say differently. I don't say tattoos anymore, I say body art. Or I say ink. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: I'll I'll compliment people. I love your ink. That sounds real cool, but that's another whole thing. and then based upon what you see and you say, you begin to act differently. Most Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: of us stop, right? We stop at the saying, and we're trying to push people into the doing. Well, what Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: does that mean? Not get rid of that moniker, do as I say, not as I do. No, no, no. Do as I say and do as I do. Here's an example Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: for you and for each of us. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. So it takes a certain level of humility to Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: yeah, to see differently, to see differently, to say and do differently. and also internal reflection, I think too. Like why is it that I think this way? in order to start addressing it. And I think too, like, you know, I'm thinking about like when we would have like those hard conversations about like race and those settings and everything. they were difficult conversations. I think some people in still this day, some people might feel attacked, right? But I think maybe they might feel attacked because they're not doing the internal reflection to figure out well, why is it that I think this way? Because I mean, I think we all carry, I mean, it's it's fact we all carry these implicit biases, right? amongst different races. And so you have Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: to do the internal reflection. to figure out why is it my thought process or my th you know, my my the models, the mental models that I have are the way that they are and how do I get past that? It takes work and practice. Dr. Renee Canady: And so often absolutely because so often we glean them from people that we love. No, my grandmother Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: was a good person. you know, it's it's I love watching Finding Your Roots, which looks like the ancestry. But I'm always just like aghast when there is a a a a white guest who then is shocked by the news. That their ancestors owned slaves. I'm like, stop Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: it. Stop it. I'm gonna need you to stop it. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Ha Dr. Renee Canady: You should be shocked if your ancestors didn't own slaves. Do you know the history of this nation? Just like I'm shocked if there are black and brown folk that they do the history and like, you are from freed blacks. You never were, they never weren't slaves. What? So just yeah, we all. Got to where we are based upon people that taught us things. But there's nothing more gratifying for me now as a parent of adults to hear them push back on me. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: You know, mom, you said that. But have you ever thought about blah blah blah? no. Now I'm now I'm starting to reap the benefits of all my parenting labor. Because not only was I designed to make them better and strong, they're making me better and strong now. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: Now power gets in the way and I'd be like, I'm your mama. Don't you take nope, nope, stand Dr. Pascale Edouard: No. Dr. Renee Canady: back. This is not about being the mama anymore. But that is the dynamic that we have to be open to as health equity leaders. Are you willing Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: when you're sitting there in the space and you know something needs to be said and your heart is going. And you know your Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: body is telling you, say something. And you're just like, no, I'm just gonna sit here and almost pass out because I can't breathe and that knot is in my throat. And when Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: you say the thing, even the hardest thing, your body calms down. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: Like, okay. And and I tend to be somewhat self-effacing. I mean, that's just a technique, a strategy that I use. I say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna trust y'all with something. Cause I believe in relationship and I think we have enough relationship capital to handle this, but whatever, whatever hard thing then I want to say. And then you'd be amazed at how many people say, Well, if you trusted me with that. Okay, let me trust you with this. This is also Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: hard. Yes. And then we're then that's how I make room at the table. And we were very intentional about this book not being called a seat at the table. Because a seat at the table is sort of this permissive mindset. Like, well, they Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: make and public health for a long time was like, Well, how do we get a seat at the seat at their table? Well, you d Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, that's true. Dr. Renee Canady: don't it if they don't want you at their table, don't go to their table. Have a table that makes room for lots of voices, and then maybe like them. Come on. there's Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: plenty of room for you. We need your perspective and your lens. And yeah, you do roads and we do air and you do all yes. How do we have a welcoming space that has room for all the voices? But that takes strategy. That takes unlearning things that we've learned. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: I've always learned room at the table. No, no, no. We're doing it differently. That word. If difference is the barrier to relationship, then we flip Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, that's true. Dr. Renee Canady: that to differently being the anecdote to division. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Hmm. Okay. Love it. Okay. So, I want to talk or focus on kind of shift on what you talk about in the book as far as like making the invisible visible, right? Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: but applying it to today's climate. so we're all navigating a time where racism and discrimination is not only pervasive, right, but out in the open in our faces from our highest offices in the US. So what does it mean? And I think you kinda touched ab touched on it in your earlier comment, but what does it mean bring attention to, call out and speak up against racism in spite of what might Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale Edouard: happen, the consequences of you speaking up against racism? Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah. Well well let me say a slightly courageous thing. It's a sort of a in community thing. for a while we were saying you know, white people need to do their own work. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: we you know, we were like, I'm so tired as a black woman of having to Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: teach white folk this and white folk that and well, I mean, there's a balance there. I don't necessarily want white folk doing their own work without some guidance. I would say to my Dr. Pascale Edouard: That makes sense, yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: say to my students when I was a professor, they're like, I studied. I studied for like a whole week for this, and I still didn't pass the test. Well, tell me about your studying. Well, you studied wrong. You studied long, yes, but you studied wrong. You studied, you didn't have an understanding of the concepts, and then you memorized the concepts and learned them incorrectly. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: So is is that really what we want? Folk that are whose mind is not necessarily open to justice, certainly not to the lived experience of African Americans, because they're not African American. There's a mutuality in our learning. And yeah, the work is tiring. That's why we have Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: Negro spirituals that talk about things like that. I Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: don't feel no ways tired, come too far from where I started from. Nobody told me the road would be easy. I don't Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: believe he brought me this far to leave me. Yeah, I'm tired. But you don't get to stop. You get to rest. You get to nap, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: but you don't get to cease from doing. And so I think reframing, you know, I again, patterns. I did three talks maybe in a month. And in each talk I had, a black woman asked me, How do I speak up? As an equity leader, because if I say things, then they're just gonna say I'm the angry black woman. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Black woman, yep, yep. Dr. Renee Canady: I'm like, yeah, they will. And I I've been called an angry black woman, and I just embrace that. I'm like, you know what? I am angry that black babies die at twice the rate of white babies before their first birthday. I am angry that my son passed away at six months due to his prematurity. I'm angry about that. Why aren't you angry? You're not angry, white woman, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: white man, Asian woman, you're not angry? Yeah, I'm angry. So when they try to call us out, that's how I flip it to call them in. This is an opportunity Dr. Pascale Edouard: I love it. Dr. Renee Canady: for you to be in relationship with me. Share my anger. there's a a verse that says, Mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: who rejoice. Be angry together. God. And so many, you know, as a relationship-driven leader, I have so many people that come in because they're like, Renee, I didn't realize that that affected you that way. And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: I do care about you. You know, my philanthropy friends have taught me that people don't always give to causes, they give to people. Renee's doing Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, that's true. Dr. Renee Canady: something. I don't know, she's doing popcorn embossed jackets, I don't know what she's doing, but I love Renee and I'm gonna make an investment in that. So how do you at the personal level get comfortable enough to do the work and be courageous, humbly courageous, right? So that interpersonally Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: then you're building social capital so that then you're not doing the work by yourself. It gets tiring when as a leader I'm trying to change the culture, I'm trying to change the systems. I'm trying to shift institutions, but I have no place in this work. We have place in this work. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: And the strength of that comes out of relationships. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so as I'm listening to you speak then, you know, so yes, you're tired of doing the work, you know, teaching white folks about racism, yada yada yad. But it it takes community in order to address racism and like, you know, flip it on its head. to hopefully eventually, God willing, we can get a password get to the point where we're past this the this this this thing that we've been in for God knows too long. Too long. Dr. Renee Canady: For how long? One of the things I was struck by in my visit to Montgomery, they had this big picture of martyrs for the fight. And I was so intentional about learning about the white, not even white allies. I don't even know. I don't like that phrase because it suggests it's your problem and we're gonna help you with it. No, it's our problem. So the Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: white social justice warriors who lost their life, this one. Woman, actually who was from Michigan, I learned after the fact, who went down south to drive black voters to the poll because Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: they were gonna make them walk, you know, for miles and miles. lost her life, was murdered for helping black people get to the poll. So it wasn't just us, it was us in community with people Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: who had the Productive were so productively outraged, right? So outraged Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: that this. Can you just imagine this young white woman so outraged? What am I gonna do? That's all I can stand. I can't stand no more. I'm gonna go down Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: there and help. Well, you might get hurt. I might get hurt. You're right. I might get hurt. But I will die in purpose. And I know nobody, I mean, even Dr. King didn't want to die. He said in one of his speeches, long life has its place. I want he wanted to live long. but somehow or another, we all have to sacrifice. Some Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: sacrifice at much, much, much deeper levels. But we all sacrifice. Maybe your sacrifice is gonna be your job. I have friends who sacrificed their jobs, got fired, terminated. Other people Dr. Pascale Edouard: Margaret. Dr. Renee Canady: sacrificed maybe the promotion. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: Some people sacrificed the invitation to that social group that they really wanted to be a part of. But ultimately, I think the gratification heals and to be able to look back and say with with pride, well-positioned pride, to tell the story, share the narrative of your why and what became of it. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Thank you for that. So, in your book you also talk about freedom and seeing, right? And one of the things that I think you pointed out really, really well, is the necessity for some people to protect their power and privilege, and how that keeps them woefully blind to the reality of oppression, which I think is a dominant factor in our current climate. so what advice can you provide to those on the front lines of advancing equity on how to, you know, best navigate this, knowing full and well that there there are those in privileged positions of power who rather protect their power and privilege opposed to helping address or joining the fight against oppression Dr. Renee Canady: Or Dr. Pascale Edouard: and injustice? Dr. Renee Canady: Well, the irony is that they're not really protecting themselves. That's the contradiction. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: And it's interesting to me on how I'll just say the opposition has flipped the narrative to their end. Right? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: anti-discrimination, whatever, whatever. I'm like, no, no, no. You you can't call that anti-discrimination. You're the one discriminate back and forth and trying to figure out like what is Getting comfortable with the risk taking that it requires and being able to call out those clear demonstrations of oppression. how how do we I mean I I I don't know what it might be proximity. so sharing power is hard. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: I say as a CEO who Shares power, abrogates power. Nine times out of ten, when I've shared power, I'm always tempted to want to grab it back. y'all not doing this the way I wanted Dr. Pascale Edouard: Ha. Dr. Renee Canady: it done. No, they're not doing it the way you would do it. It doesn't mean that they're doing it wrong. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, that's a fact. Yep. Dr. Renee Canady: Like they're doing it and they're doing it well, but you would do it that way. Well, that's fine. That's the way you would have done it. But power sharing, and and and I do. I just want to say, just let me do it. And you know, I'll get it done and we can move on. I'll tell you what we did. Mm-mm. It's never as strong of a solution. It's never as staying of a solution, right? When people are invested and I'm like, and they're like, yep, that's what we do. Remember during one of our anniversaries, we had an artist do this big collective picture and have each of us paint a part of the picture. So like, where's Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: your part? Yep, see that part of the cloud right there? That's me. So we saw ourselves in this collective. And as one who has power, got a lot of power, right? I have religious power as a Christian in this nation. I have positional power. I have organizational power. I have financial power. I have to be very intentional about saying. Power is not a part of this solution, right? It's a barrier to the solution. So Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: my I've tried to build a culture of that I call of leading up. in the book I talk about this phenomena, this concept of or or a strategy of just excuse me, but let me be can I just ask? Maybe it's me, but excuse me. And my team calls me on that. And it feels like power. Did we invite power in the room? Okay, okay. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Ha ha. Dr. Renee Canady: But you gotta be willing, you know, to receive the correction. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: it's hard to do. But right now, I I would dare say we have more leaders not willing to do that. That's why we need this and other Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: leaders who are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. here I go. I'm I'm I'm walking in power, aren't I? Okay, thank you. Correct me, pull me in. but leaders. I challenge white folk to For us to help white folk, but I'm gonna push leaders because leadership is a much broader span. I don't even Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: use the term leadership anymore. I only try to use the term leaders. That's why this book says a leader's guide. Initially it was like a leadership guide. No, leadership is conceptual and theoretical and I know I'm it often leaves leaders on the sidelines, many leadership models, because there's a billion of them. But let's just center the people, the leaders, push them Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: to recognize, yep, I do have power. And so how can we use that power real strategically? And sometimes as we're doing facilitated dialogue, and I'll have a younger colleague with a brilliant idea, and I say, tell you what, let me tee that up for you. Because if you put it out there, they're gonna blow you Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: off. They're not gonna blow Dr. Kennedy off. So I'll Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: just put a gentle tip and then you hit it out the ballpark and then I'm a co-sign what you said and we got this whole thing going. This change is gonna require strategy. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: We gotta have a meeting before the meeting. We've got to prepare after after action review how'd that go? What should we do differently? Changing systems requires changing mental models and mindsets. That's Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: requires work before you're on the stage or in the meeting or at the presentation. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay, thank you. So my next question pertains to what you talk about in the book, dialogue as action, right? And I think you kinda spoke to this a little bit. So in your book you discussed dialogue as action, right? So my next question is one that I think many have come to or are currently currently at, and again, I think you spoke about this a little bit while ago, but there are people who have been doing this work to advance equity for a long time, right? they're advocates, organizers, leaders within organizations who've shown up to the meetings, have the had had the hard conversations and pushed for policy changes. right, but who've but for who some dialogue started feeling less like progress and more like like it was just like a thing to do, right? And they're tired and exhausted. Right. So what would you say to these individuals who were tired of dialogue or simply just burnt out from the pull and tug of this work, to advance equity? Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah, I would say if you're tired of dialogue you're not doing dialogue. I get it. I'm so you know, I'll hear people say, I'm so tired of talking about this. Are we just gonna sit in a room and talk about this? Well, yeah, let's get tired of talking about it because talking is just a regurgitation over and over and a repetition over and over and over again. Let's get to the point of dialogue, which is strategic and focused. William Isaacs from MIT talks about dialogue as the experience of people coming together and creating new truths in a way that not Neither of them could have done individually. He uses Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: this phrase where he says, it is about releasing your grip on certainty. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: And being open to the possibilities that I say will ultimately change us. We we are we're just holding, you know, we even have this phrase in in our vernacular that says, you have to take it out of my cold, dead hands. What? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: How about let's do what Dr. Isaac suggests? Let's relax our grip on certainty. Are Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: you sure that you're sure? And then let's be open to the truths that occur because you and I, you and I are going to come to conclusions that you would never be able to buy yourself and that I would never to buy myself. So Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: that's what dialogue is. Dialogue is intentional, focused doing. It's it's a design, it's communication that's leading us to action. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: Not just like, okay, everybody write the minutes down. Yep, I got the minutes. And then you come back in the next meeting. Did anybody read the minutes? Well, can you read the minutes real quick? That was a conversation that you recorded. Because a dialogue would be, okay, I'm gonna do this. Okay, what are you? Yep, you got this. I got that. We're all got so then when we come back together, then the dialogue is deeper because now we have more intel. Here's the change that happened. That was great. This Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: didn't work so well. Let's reframe it. What got in the way of dialogue, facilitated dialogue, is about doing. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Okay. Thank you for that. So if you're just talking just to talk, you're gonna get tired. Dr. Renee Canady: It's difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're gonna get tired. You yeah, let's I I don't I try not to do much talking. I try Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: to either do agitating, as my community organizing colleagues have said, which are these very provocative kinds of prompts and questions, or I do dialogue, which is coming together to figure out I thought this was the best way. You know, public health is about continuous improvement. How are we gonna do this differently? You know, we have all of our models, we have the fishtail diagram and we have all black P D S A, rapid P D S Dr. Pascale Edouard: And do act. Dr. Renee Canady: A. It's all about improvement, but we won't allow ourselves to improve how we exchange communication to advance Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: action. Dr. Pascale Edouard: So I'm gonna ask you this last question related to the book about productive vigilance, right? I tend to believe that the civil rights movement was fundamentally about creating equality to access, right? However, over time that time that fight evolved into today's equity movement. And in many ways, we've reaped real benefits from the civil rights movement. However, some may argue that progress from the civil rights movement made us more comfortable. without keeping up the fight of the civil rights movement. So I wanna ask you directly, what advice can you recommend for moving from complacency to vigilance, especially among like millennials and Gen Z inheriting this fight? Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. Mm. Good question. I I think we are ever evolving. I bet Dr. King learned from the lessons before him, right? He went to Mahatma Gandhi, Marcus Garvey. How did other folk do things? Whose work were they reading to shape and Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: frame what they would do? I I we absolutely I think my generation, and I'm 60s generation, right? The tail end of the baby boomers. We I won't say that we thought we had arrived, but we were kind of like, we're doing good. Good enough is good enough, is it? No, good enough is not good enough. Because good enough was too easy to shift. and the election of the first black president in the United States shone the light on some Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: attitudes and beliefs that we thought had changed that had not. And so I feel like our generation didn't really vet the change. Okay, they made some Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: change. It's almost like what we did with the summer of social unrest w as we were talking about when, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: okay, well we're gonna give what this this scholarship. For black kids, and we're gonna do this and do that. But we didn't vet the change there. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: and so same challenge with us. So now information is a gift, feedback is a gift that to I tell my team. So now what are we gonna do with this feedback? As again, I was saying our roles are different, and I do think experience and years, Bring value to your insight. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: So what I could have been doing when I was in my 30s, you know, we were busy accomplishing things and getting invited to join things and the first black this and the first black woman that. And, you know, your generation is now like, okay, well, yeah, time out. It's shame on us if we're the first black anything. Because Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: there should be a journey now, a trajectory of folk. And so how do We get out of you all's way. How do I stand back? And now I'm in the supportive role. I'm not the leading lady. I'm the supporting actress. Or I'm holding, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: I'm the gaff holder, or whatever that is, right? I'm holding the the microphone, but I'm still playing a critical role. So how do I get out of the way? Because you guys think about this very, very differently. And Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah, we do. Dr. Renee Canady: I believe that the solutions are set right there. So my generation has. To be courageous in a different way. We have to be courageous by trusting new ideas, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: by trusting new energy. And are we gonna worry about you? Yeah. You think Dr. King's elders didn't worry about him? Of course they did. You think my elders didn't worry about Barack Obama? Of course they did. But he was confident in his assignment, right? Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: In the earth. And we do all have a role to play. There are some That Dr. Pascual Eduard can do that nobody else can do. And part of our personal journey is figuring out what that is. So Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: I'm confident, dare I say, I'm fully persuaded that joy is coming, light is coming, and the stories that my grandchildren experience are going to be very, very different than those that I experienced. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. I I mean, that's what we're here for. You know, most of us in this fight, you know, trying to ensure that, you know, the generations that come, what is it, generation alpha, beta alpha, I forget what it's called. Dr. Renee Canady: I guess I'm not. Dr. Pascale Edouard: That their world is different from, you know, this world this current world that we're in. So Doctor Kennedy, go Dr. Renee Canady: And I think how do we not stifle each other, right? Let me say this. We Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: I have hired in our Center for Health Equity Practice, I've hired some extremely driven progressive folk who thought I wasn't doing enough. young Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm-hmm. Dr. Renee Canady: black organizers. And, you know, instead of trying to stifle them. You know, I'm like, well, maybe this is isn't the context for you, but it takes all, right? If I were of age during the civil rights movement, the heart of it, I would have been in Dr. King's line. That's who I'm Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: the cloth I'm cut from. But I would have been so glad that there was a Malcolm line. And I'd have like, Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah, power to the people. Y'all do it differently. Marcus Garvey did it differently. Mark Dr. King did it differently. This young man in my Center for Health Education Practice did it really differently. And rather than him beating his head against the wall, I wanted to support him to find the place. What's the platform that fits who you are best? And ultimately he found that. So Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: instead of wanting everybody to be like paper cut doll, doll paper, no, no, no. We're gonna all be different. Dr. Pascale Edouard: From the same cloud cut from the Dr. Renee Canady: It's gonna take very, very different things. We're not all cut from the same clock. But recognizing that helps us to not be threatened by it and to move Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Dr. Renee Canady: forward and make progress in your own individual spaces. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Yeah. And I think that kinda goes back to what we talked about earlier about like you know, seeing differently and th the different you know, between different and differently. how you made that distinction. so that was my last question. However, I know like this topic is a very heavy topic. So what we'd like to what we like doing at Hue Talks is ending on something that's a little bit lighter but still relevant to the topic. what which is what we call our this or that segment, right? And so I have like about five questions. They're this or that, literally. questions for you, where you just kind of get give your gut response. so ready? All right. The first one is incremental progress or bold disruption. Dr. Renee Canady: Mm, incremental progress. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay. work within the system or build outside of it? Dr. Renee Canady: in the system. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay. policy change or culture change? Dr. Renee Canady: Culture change. Dr. Pascale Edouard: set a boundary or push through for the mission. That's a tough one. Dr. Renee Canady: Boundary spoon. Dr. Pascale Edouard: I mean, 'cause you can't do it tired. Dr. Renee Canady: Give me boundaries. Give me some boundaries. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Right. Okay. protect your peace or stay in the room for the hard conversation. Dr. Renee Canady: Mm-hmm. You gotta stay in the room. You can protect Yeah, Dr. Pascale Edouard: You said w stay in the room? Dr. Renee Canady: you gotta stay in the room, but I will say you can protect your peace while you're staying in the room. Dr. Pascale Edouard: How do you do that? Dr. Renee Canady: Mm. Sometimes silence. I'm in the room. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Mm. Dr. Renee Canady: I'm observing. My role is to observe and soak up things so I can think through and strategize. I have been where, you know, like I said with the the young colleague, let me let me say that and then you follow in. So she's still in the room, but hopefully my partnering with her helped protect her peace. So I I I tend to be in the both and world. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Okay, love it. Dr. Kennedy, thank you, thank you so, so much for being on Hue Talks and for sharing your wisdom, insights, and nuggets of wisdom. so how can the people reach you? So if people are interested in getting contact in getting in contact with you, how can they reach you? Dr. Renee Canady: Yeah, twofold. Like you I intro introduced my two identities. I'm a CEO. Please feel free to reach out at rcanady at mph i dot org. I'm also an author and a keynote speaker. Feel free to reach out at productiveoutrage at gmail.com, either of those places or spaces. I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. I do a lot of LinkedIn. that's my social media preference. but please feel free to look me up. There as well, and I hope we'll have opportunity to continue this dialogue and to begin new dialogues with others. Dr. Pascale Edouard: Awesome. Thank you so so much, Dr. Kennedy. It was lovely having you on. I thoroughly and l enjoyed our conversation. And hopefully we'll have you back on, you know, in the future on Hue Talks. Dr. Renee Canady: Anytime, anytime. I'm in your corner cheering for you. Dr. Pascale Edouard: I appreciate it. Thank you to all my listeners who are listening to today's podcast interview with Dr. Kennedy. My name is Dr. Pascal Edward and I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you.