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Robbed in London, Safe in Africa: Why This Jamaican Left the UK · Babes, how did you get here

• 2:33
  Music
• 3:00
  They're walking behind me and I can hear him saying, there ain't no black in the Union Jack. And I'm 14 about at this time. And I'm on my own walking to the train station. I get to the platform.
• 3:10
  Grey's train station on the platform, and he's hurling racial abuse at me. The bit that stood out to me, April, is not the fact that he was being racist, but the fact that all these adults, a bunch of people hear him, see him, targeting one child. I'm a child because his family, his daughter and his wife and his other daughter sat on the bench laughing and he's hurling abuse, and nobody said to him, shut up.
• 3:39
  Nobody said to him, what are you doing? This is a child. That stuck with me for many years. What stuck with me was just the
• 3:48
  No balls, no grit, no community, no stand up for your neighbor-ism in the UK. Everybody's like, I'm going to mind my own business thing. I got on the train so scared that day because I was like, is he getting on the train? Is he going to be on my carriage? Nobody stood up for me. And I think that always stuck out, stuck with me.
• 4:12
  We're dropping new episodes every single week. So make sure you subscribe. You don't want to miss this, babes. And leave a comment and tell me, what do you want to hear out of my next conversation? Your support really helps this community grow. And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking, should they take that next big leap? Babes, send them the podcast.
• 4:30
  Now more than ever, people are thinking about moving abroad. I am April Jackson, traveling the world, finding interesting people who have chosen a life elsewhere. Cheryl Ankara Newton, a global citizen, a mother and an entrepreneur with roots across the Caribbean, West Africa and the UK. Her life is now rooted here in South Africa.
• 4:53
  She speaks openly and honestly about the highs and the lows and the courage that it took to choose alignment over applause. I genuinely cannot wait for this conversation. But first, babes, how did you get here?
• 5:09
  Is it cliche to say a man? No, I love love. Tell me. You love love. So my now husband at the time was courting me. So 16, 17 years ago, 18 years ago, he decided that he was moving to South Africa with an opportunity through Google that he was working for.
• 5:30
  And he kept saying, you gotta come, you gotta come and visit. And I just said, why are you moving down there? I mean, it's full of issues, they're racist, you know?
• 5:42
  A few months later, I bit the bullet and I visited. And when I visited, he said, you know, I'd love you to move here and I'd like for us to be together and start a life here and everything. And I just thought, oh my gosh, I have an amazing job in Mayfair. No, no, no, no, but this is great. Cape Town, I absolutely fell in love with. He brought me to Joburg first.
• 6:04
  And that was also amazing. It was great to see black excellence everywhere, a whole different diversity to what we see in the UK. And yeah, he basically said, I will introduce you to whoever you need to meet to be able to get you to come here. So he convinced me.
• 6:28
  and I'd never turned back since 2010 I've been here. So it's 16 years now. Take me back to being in the UK. You said that he was courting you. So before you chose to move here, did you know he was gonna be your husband? Did you have that inclination? So the first day he met me, I was 23 years old. The first day he met me, he said, I'm gonna marry you someday.
• 6:53
  I don't know how they know. He knew. I was just like, yeah, whatever. Chat, chat. Americans. Because he's American. I just thought, oh, these Americans, they're full of chat. But he actually put the work in eight years of sort of courting. Wow. He did a lot of work. He...
• 7:11
  would come and take my parents out to dinner, and I wouldn't even be living there. I would be even living in Trinidad, and he would come take my parents out to go see Al Green, take them to Ghanaian restaurants. He really put in the work. And whenever he would travel, he would send
• 7:28
  flowers, postcards, and so if I bring home a boyfriend, my dad would say, who's this? I like Steven. Really? Because my husband just was kind of a permanent feature for them. And then I think I grew up, I kissed enough frogs, and I was just like, you know what, he is,
• 7:48
  He's always been that attraction, sweet. We had done so many things separately and together. And yeah, I kind of grew up and realized, no, this is the love of my life. I had always been attracted to him. I always loved him. But I just took my time in getting there.
• 8:08
  Before we continue, make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below. You will get to choose thumbnails before the episodes go live, pick our next destinations, even recommend guests. I really cannot wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes. You said that you first came to Jo'burg. Can you tell me what your impression was when you arrived?
• 8:32
  I'm Ghanaian and Trinidadian by descent. Born in the UK, spent 10 of my formative years in Trinidad. And then moved back to the UK. And I traveled quite a bit and traveled back and forth to the African continent, mainly to see family in Ghana. I was kind of expecting Joburg to be like Ghana. I'm going to Africa.
• 9:00
  going to be exactly the same. Can you describe Ghana? I've never been. Okay, so you've got Jamaican heritage? I'm Jamaican. You're Jamaican, yes. So think of
• 9:12
  The villages in Jamaica think, we're so similar, think of maybe Kingston as the capital. And I would say it's not so far. It's not so different in Accra and in...
• 9:33
  Ghana. And my father is from Kumasi, which is another second city of Ghana. And then when we started going, it was 20 something years ago. So it was really like a very developing
• 9:48
  Nowadays, it's a whole other story. But the roads were dirt roads. Even in Accra, when we were landing, I remember thinking, wow, even Trinidad has better roads. So that's how underdeveloped it was.
• 10:05
  And so I just assumed, OK, he's moved to South Africa. I'm going to Africa. You know, he was just associated with that. So landing in Johannesburg and seeing this kind of metropolis, infrastructure, a larger airport, things working. Yeah.
• 10:26
  I was just like, hang on a minute. Why are they hiding this from us? And then to top it off, on top of all of that, going to spaces like, you know, the malls, the restaurants, the markets, et cetera, and seeing so many...
• 10:46
  black people who are thriving and doing well, but also seeing, you know, different races as well, because there's quite a makeup of, you know, white, Indian, the rainbow nation. It reminded me of Trinidad as well. It made me feel like, oh wow, I'm in a cross between London, Trinidad,
• 11:11
  And Ghana, because it's majority black, it's majority African, it is African, you know. And it just felt so right. I was like, wow, I get all of my cultures in one space. And I just loved, I loved Joburg, when I fell in love with Joburg. And then when he brought me to Cape Town. Was that on the same trip? On the same trip. Okay. Because I think this was the...
• 11:38
  the bit that sweetened the deal. When he brought me to Cape Town and then you layer that diversity of people and culture with the Cape Malay, et cetera, you layer that with the foods, the curries, everything that sort of reminded me of that melting pot in London.
• 12:04
  And then on top of that, a beautiful space, landscape, the mountains, the beaches, the wine farms. I was just like, what is this place? What is this place? And why did I reject for so long? And I've never turned back since. So that first trip, it was a short holiday?
• 12:26
  It was a very short holiday. How long? Sort of 10 days. Okay. 10 days. And you go back to London? So this was June 2009. Yes. I go back to London and I hand in my resignation. Really? I was working for one of the biggest property companies in the UK. I was a chartered surveyor. I was young and doing my thing, working in Mayfair. And I just thought, I'm coming up to 30 now.
• 12:55
  This is just insane, but I'm going to do it. I handed in my resignation and a month later... You were back? I was back here and moved here permanently. So... In 2010, sorry. I want to know, like, thought process, right? Mm-hmm. You're on the plane. You know that this is what you're going to do. Do you have any doubts, any fears? What are you thinking in terms of the future? So...
• 13:24
  I think a lot of my fears were alleviated by the fact that my husband was so well-traveled. Well, he wasn't my husband yet. Right. But this guy was so well-traveled and trusted by my parents. My mom actually came with me, or she came to visit me not long after I moved. Okay. Because for them, it was, I mean, they were immigrants going to the UK, and now I'm leaving what they built for what they...
• 13:53
  sacrificed for us. And I think she had to also be sure, I mean, she loved Stephen and she knew I would be fine, but they had never been to South Africa either. And she came and she just, and she only came to Joburg on that trip. She didn't even make it to Cape Town at that point because we were living in Joburg.
• 14:13
  And I just had that seal of approval. And I knew it was right. Because for my mom to feel so happy and comfortable and express that she was fine, that I was doing the right thing. Not even my dad had come yet. But I felt that was right. And then literally...
• 14:37
  Everything just, you know, the universe puts things in place and everything just kept falling into place. I got the job. So the then CEO of Liberty Properties, which was another big property company here, said to me, we need someone like you. You can help us to get international retail in. Can you help us get brands like Zara and H&M, which I subsequently did. That fell into place and then...
• 15:07
  Month after moving here, I met Nelson Mandela and I was just like, OK, this means I have to be. This is crazy. So what are the circumstances that you're meeting Nelson Mandela, babes? Oh, my gosh. That's another long story. But basically, my husband did quite a bit of work with the foundation, with Google, et cetera, and the Nelson Mandela Foundation. And.
• 15:30
  They invited us on his birthday, his 92nd birthday, to go out to Soweto to a boy's orphanage to help with the orphanage. And we were looking for something to do on his birthday because you have to give 67 minutes of service. Okay.
• 15:47
  And so they said, they called us and said, you need to be there at 5 a.m. in Soweto. So we called up some friends and we said, guys, we're going to Soweto to read at the boys' orphanage and take books and things for them. And some of our friends are like, that's way too early. Couple of our friends came with us. And when we get there, we read, we do all, we, you know, we do all the service and we play with the boys, we're amazing. And
• 16:14
  Then afterwards, the lady from the foundation said, what are you guys doing now? And we were like, we don't know. We're probably going home, have a barbecue. And they said, well, we're going to Mr. Mandela's house to sing happy birthday to him and to take him 92 cupcakes. Would you like to join us? Yes. Like, what? We were like, let's check our diaries.
• 16:36
  So, yeah, lo miho, we get there. And this was just before the advent of, you know, I mean, Facebook was kind of new. Even our camera phones were crap. I still have photos. But nowadays it would have been a whole hoo-ha on Instagram and everything. Right.
• 16:54
  But it was just beautiful. He sat at his dining table. We all sang happy birthday to him. And everyone went around, shook his hand. And when the ladies came up to him, he had like this twinkle in his eye. You know, he was very special. Such an amazing aura. That is like a dream. I feel like, you know, whenever people say, oh, if you could have anyone at dinner, like who would you have? All the people I want are dead.
• 17:18
  Right. Like all the Nelson Mandela would definitely be at my table. Maya Angelou would also be at my table. She's here. And it's funny because I met a customer relatively recently just before I closed. And long story short, his dad was friends with Maya Angelou. I said, no, he was not. I go to the guy's house and he has a signed letter from Maya Angelou to his dad. And I was like,
• 17:44
  If this could have just happened a few years earlier, you would have been my connection to Maya Angelou. Wow. There's just some core people that you would just love to be in their presence. Yes. We don't even need to say nothing. I just want to feel you. Feel you. That's amazing. Yes, exactly. The awe was just to be around his dinner table. Yeah. Crazy. Thank goodness you got on the plane back here. You would never have had that experience.
• 18:12
  Absolutely. Absolutely. It was divine. When you choose to move to Cape Town, what is perpetuating that? What is pulling you to Cape Town? Again, the man. The man and the job. So he subsequently left Google and worked for the biggest media company in South Africa, which was MIH.
• 18:35
  NASPERS. Right. And how long after moving to Joburg are you then moving to Cape Town? So a year. Okay, so quite quickly. Yeah, 2011 we moved to Cape Town and he said to me, see I made good on my promise because I had Cape Town in my heart from that initial visit, that initial trip.
• 18:57
  I was enjoying my time in Joburg and I almost resisted Cape Town when we moved because, remember, I was now working in corporate. Right, you'd formed a rhythm. A rhythm, a community. And Joburg is so much easier to find community than Cape Town. Oh, can you tell me about that? So Joburg, I think, it's kind of like London. People come from everywhere, right?
• 19:19
  They're coming from the Eastern Cape. They're coming from other parts of Africa. Everybody's here to work and to build. And so Joba people embrace one another as family, community people.
• 19:33
  much more quickly than Cape Town. Cape Town, people are, the people that are from here almost resist getting close to people like us who they see as transient because they feel like, oh, you're going to break my heart. You're going to leave and we're going to get close and you're going to leave. So I'm not even going to invest. I'm going to invest with the people I went to school with, my family and my friends and they kind of, and people say Capetownians are clicky. Right. Because of that. You're not the first person to,
• 20:02
  People say Cape Townians are clicky. Joburg has come across as much more friendly. And I think the circumstances dictate that. And it took me a while because I would just come to Cape Town. I would be in Cape Town and I would run to Joburg because I had work. So every week I'm in Joburg for at least three days a week or two days a week. So you were flying back and forth? I was flying back and forth at this point. Okay.
• 20:32
  At one stage just before our wedding, I thought to myself, I've got no friends in Cape Town. I keep coming back to Joburg. I better make a plan and make some friends. So I actually went online. This is before even Tinder or online dating or whatever. Not that I was looking for a male friend or that type of thing. Just some friends. There was this...
• 20:55
  community online called um it was like an expat expats in cake town right something like that and i went on there and i was specifically targeting uh women of caribbean
• 21:11
  or possibly, or British, British. Right. And randomly, I made my very first friend online, Sam, who now lives in Joburg. Oh, Lord, Sam. She's Jamaican and Bajan background, but from Birmingham. And yeah, it was great, though, because we were, you know, we were like two peas in a pod, and I would call her my little sister, and we had such a great time. And then...
• 21:39
  slowly but surely the community started growing you start meeting your tribe you know people who have similar backgrounds expats that are here people raising well I didn't have a child at the time but then when you have a child that even is much easier to to get into community but yeah Joburg was special in terms of living how would you compare the two cities and
• 22:06
  So cost of living in Joburg is probably cheaper. Okay. You get much more space for your money, you know, housing, et cetera. You're just behind really high walls. Right. You know, the security and that tension around
• 22:25
  always looking out over your stuff. So I haven't been to Joburg for this reason. And coming from Jamaica, when I hear headlines, they don't faze me, right? Because I've heard the headlines about Kingston. I'm like, okay, and I'm fine. However, this is my second time to Cape Town and it is people from Cape Town who tell me, don't go to Joburg by myself with the girls. And it's only because local people are telling me that I've been listening. And now everyone tells me that they love Joburg.
• 22:54
  um no yeah i think they're south africans almost are their own worst enemy especially out the south africans who have left south africa and are you were you hearing this from outside like taxi drivers yeah yeah they were one taxi driver said to me but let me explain so he says to me in joeberg if i have my window down someone could throw acid through the window to like grab my bag and i was like
• 23:21
  throw acid that's one of my biggest fears I'd rather you slap me across the face right and so I was like really and then another person said how much um people bring like knives or things to clubs I'm like well I don't go to clubs so that's that's not really my problem however I'm not sure if taxi drivers in general are just very nervous because I say this because in Cape Town I'm taking the taxi to go rent the car and the gentleman says um every time we get to the stoplight could you
• 23:47
  So what am I gonna do at the stoplight? I'm gonna mash through the glass, right? Like to me that made no sense. He said yes. I said really? So I called my dad and I explained. And now my dad's like, leave, just leave now. Why are you there? Just leave. I said, dad, hold on. I was like, hold on. I was just telling you about my day. And he's like, no, but why do you have to stay? I said, dad, I have things to do. He goes, so? To the point where he was like, do we need to get a bodyguard? I was like, dad, hold on. Like, let's just hold on. So I go get the car. And the point is I've been driving around by myself.
• 24:17
  And I think in general, taxi drivers seem to be very nervous. And I'm not judging. Maybe they've had particular experiences to make them this way. But the point is, after driving around, I have never felt uncomfortable driving around. And I do think that that comes from growing up in Jamaica and understanding. So for example, one of the things I used to find funny in the UK is people would say, like, if somebody was cleaning a window, so they've gone on holiday and somebody's cleaning the window at the traffic light,
• 24:47
  They'd be like, oh my gosh, it's so uncomfortable because they're cleaning the windows at the traffic light. I used to be like, but if you don't want to get them money, just don't. If you don't want them to clean, you can shoot them. And you just say no. Like, it was never a thing. And so I do think that context matters greatly because...
• 25:02
  since being here, to me, South Africa is just a bigger version of Jamaica, right? But even the roads feel very similar. You know, you do see people that may be asking for money. But again, I see that at home. So those things don't... I mean, to be honest, right now, post-COVID, I see that everywhere. Any city, you know, you go to London and I'm struck by how much homelessness is around. So I do think that maybe your starting point really influences...
• 25:31
  the overall experience more than we give credit to. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
• 25:40
  Growing up in London, I actually have a story about when I was leaving London to come to South Africa. It was about three days before I was leaving London and I was finishing off a deal to bring Forever 21 into the bullring in Birmingham and crafting an email on the Blackberry, on the DLR, on the way home, 45 minutes of crafting this email to the lawyers.
• 26:05
  I get off the train. It's summertime, about 7 p.m., so light still. And normally when I get off the train, even in London, you have to have your wits about you. Normally when I get off the train, especially if it's dark, I stick with the group that gets off the train. And I try to walk as quickly as possible along with people. This time...
• 26:26
  Dropped my guard because it's daytime, it's bright, and I'm continuing my email as I walk home on my BlackBerry. And a young guy is coming towards me, but I pay him no mind and I'm carrying on.
• 26:44
  He obviously sees that I'm focused. He doubles back, yoinks the blackberry out of my hand, takes off like a gazelle. At that moment, at that very moment, this is, you couldn't even write this, a cop car comes round, two female coppers in the car see me going, because I'm screaming going,
• 27:03
  Please just push send. I really don't care about the Blackberry because it's a company phone, but the work, the IP that just went into that. I'm like, just push send. He's running away. They could see. So they quickly deduced, they turn the car around and they start chasing him. One female copper jumps out. She runs after him. She's jumping over fences. He drops the phone. The other female copper brings it back to me. They catch him. Paddy wagon pulls up.
• 27:33
  They bundle him in. And then they say to me, you've got to come to Plasto police station with us. I get in the car and I'm going along to Plasto. I get to the police station. They say, OK, so this seems like a first time offence. He must have just been an opportunist. Do you want to press charges?
• 27:50
  Or do you just want us to give them a bit of a warning? So I said, what does pressing charges entail? Because I've never been in this situation. So they say, oh, it means setting a court date at this date in the future. You've got to come back and blah, blah, blah. I said, I can't come back. I'm moving to Joburg in two days' time. So then they say...
• 28:08
  you're moving to Joburg, oh my God, it's so dangerous, you're gonna get, you know, there's rape, there's murder. And I said, oh my gosh, I've just been robbed in London, literally in London, and you're worried about me. And I get to Joburg and I've been in South Africa, 16 years, back and forth between Joburg, between various places on the continent as well. And touch wood.
• 28:30
  I have not been robbed or assaulted or whatever you want to call it yet to this day. But that really resonates with me because when I moved back to the UK about 10 years ago, and again, you have to put the context, I'm from Kingston. And when people hear Kingston, they immediately have these...
• 28:48
  weird, deprived images in their mind. And again, whilst you may know better, I do think that sometimes things penetrate you, even though you know better, right? And so I did think that certain things wouldn't happen when you come to England. So I've never experienced serious crime in Jamaica in my entire upbringing. But I think sometimes when you constantly hear first world, you're third world, first world, you're third world,
• 29:15
  you do somehow start to believe aspects of it. Not that it becomes a part of your core, because any Jamaican knows you're confident and all of those things. But you do start to believe that certain things won't happen in England because it's first world, right? And so I get there...
• 29:30
  I opened my second restaurant in Clapham and it's relevant where in the sense that it's at a time where, you know, there are lots of money in the area. The area feels affluent to some degree. I appreciate that back in the day it wasn't as such, but this is post-gentrification.
• 29:49
  The restaurant, the window gets broken into the front door. The man comes in and you can see it on CCTV. He steals all the alcohol. And the poor guy doesn't even know what expensive alcohol looks like because he takes all of the like supermarket recognizable brands instead of going like top shelf. I'm like, babes, at least go top shelf, you know, and take something good. Right, if you're going to risk it. Do it for something. Right. And then, you know, and also there I tried to get shutters after, but you can't because it's a conservation area. So the council will not allow you to protect...
• 30:19
  your property, but people are breaking in, which that is the part that I find a bit strange. But OK, that happens. Then in terms of my car, post-COVID, my car literally gets stolen in front of my house to the point where I was calling my sister, wondering if like maybe it was some post-baby confusion. I was like,
• 30:36
  you saw my car when you came here yesterday? She said, are you joking? Pregnancy brain. Literally, I was wondering what it's going on. She goes, yes, the car was there. I said, it was right, like it was right in front of my house. And she says, what are you talking about? I said, the car is not there. She goes, what do you mean? Honestly, I was wondering, did I park somewhere else? I was just questioning myself. Called the police. They said, unless you have a picture or a video, they don't investigate because it's a Range Rover.
• 31:03
  Sorry? What? He said, because they're being targeted, they just, I suggest you contact your insurance. Like, not even pretending to try, which was weird. And then the third thing that happened, my car, so this is Brixton, again, post-gentrified Brixton, and someone had been stabbed across the street
• 31:21
  the road, literally directly across. And there was police tape, so I couldn't get to my car and I had to go pick up a delivery. I'm begging the man, I'm putting on the best Jamaican charm. I'm like, guys, please, I really need to get the car. And he says, okay, I'll let you go, but please be careful of blood and knives. Wow.
• 31:37
  I'm like, where am I? Thank you. And this is the thing about where am I? Because don't get me wrong, we have violence and crime. However, the thing that I find very strange about London is that it is too easy to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whereas for me, and I'm not saying that that makes it OK, but in Jamaica, crime in uptown, as we would say, is very much targeted. It's not random. And the areas where you find most of the crime occurring, babes, respectfully, those aren't my areas. Right.
• 32:06
  I don't frequent those areas. So to be in my place of business, to be in my home, right? And those are just three examples of many in a relatively short space of time. I'm like, why are people not applying the same rules to their home that they apply to other people? The same grace that you're gonna give London, you're gonna give an explanation, you're gonna rationalize, you're gonna tell me it was worse back in the day, all of these things. And yet, when someone says they're moving to Joburg, they're moving to Kingston,
• 32:33
  It's like, oh my gosh, why would you? Right, right. Why would you? But I mean, it's so classic, isn't it? And it's still even today, you just look at what's happening in the world. The grace that people are extending the US. It's a shit show. The grace that people would extend everything that's happening in the UK because of this first world...
• 32:58
  You know, it's tiring. It's exhausting. And I'm completely with you on that. It's exactly the same. Trinidad, Port of Spain, is probably ranked sixth or seventh most dangerous capital in the world. You're that high? Very high compared to...
• 33:15
  Quite close to Cape Town, South Africa. And actually Cape Town is really up there in terms of murder, murder capitals of the world. And when you think about it, the murder is actually, the murder rate is actually more in the Cape Flats. Right. It's, like you say, a regional or a...
• 33:41
  A space that we probably would never even find ourselves. Right. Unless maybe we're doing a tour. And you're invited. Or you're invited. Which is what I say to people all the time. Like, my driving instructor was from Tivoli. Tivoli is a very well-known ghetto in Jamaica. And I used to do my driving lessons in Tivoli. Would I go to Tivoli by myself? Why am I there uninvited? Right. But I'm with him. And I, like, you feel completely...
• 34:03
  It's also when you get invited to certain areas, people treat you with so much love and respect because you're their guest. Right. And so there's this extra level of protection. They go out of their way. I mean, Stephen always talks about going to Laventille in Trinidad, which is similar to Tivoli. And he said exactly that, you know, and they also...
• 34:31
  You're not here to interrupt or take something or they don't have to have their guards up, you know. But people are people everywhere in the world. And we just have to be mindful and also understand our places as to, you know, where we need to be, how we need to be.
• 34:49
  If we're invited, absolutely. Yeah. But they're not looking for us to to just show up and invade their space. Invade the space. Yeah. When you decided to take that move and you were leaving such a comfortable situation, when you're telling and understand that your mother
• 35:05
  was supportive because of Stephen and there was a sense of security. But I'm just wondering, what's the talk with the friends? Are the friends seeing this as progress? Are the friends seeing that, oh no, it's Africa, are you regressing, especially in your career? Because there tends to be this idea that if we're going any destination that is probably less traveled to, that you must be going backwards.
• 35:28
  Yes. So a few of my private school friends, you know, in the property industry, you have an interesting bunch. My private school friends were just like, Cheryl, why? I'm like, why would you go to Joburg? It's really dangerous down there.
• 35:45
  I invited them to my wedding on purpose. Quite a few, most people came. You got married here? We got married in Cape Town. Amazing. In a wine farm. It must have been beautiful. Yeah, back in 2012. It was stunning. 150 people came from all over. You like that many people? You know what? We have big families, but not only that. We chose to get married here thinking that, oh, people won't come. We were thinking we'll have a nice small wedding. I think it was February. February.
• 36:13
  They were like, get me out of the cold. Get me out of the cold. I'm coming. I'm coming. But when they came, a lot of them, it was the first time to the continent. And it was really interesting to see our diverse crowd in a wine farm in Cape Town, which historically, if you think about apartheid, this type of crowd. Would never have happened. And...
• 36:38
  Also, the people working on that wine farm, a lot of the coloreds who work the wine farm, they were just in awe of our crowd because they'd never seen so many different races together at one venue, at one wedding.
• 36:55
  Because it's still quite, you know, separated. Even though it's a rainbow nation, if you have a colored wedding or a black wedding. It's singular in that event. At that time as well, back in 2012. And, you know, but...
• 37:12
  my friends were certainly convinced because actually quite a few of them came out and visited prior to the wedding and some of them visited after as well. And most of them were just like, you're doing the right thing. This is just wonderful. It's- Did you, because I appreciate also, you were younger at the time, did you need your friends to kind of support the idea to feel right within yourself or have you always been very self-assured?
• 37:41
  Wow, that's a good question. Probably not recognizing that I needed that support. And just actually you asking about the initial question where I talk about my mum, I didn't realize how much I needed that seal of approval at the time. I tend to be quite...
• 38:03
  Why jump in? It's like shoot from the hips. Just do it. Do it and then figure it out later on. And yeah, so I didn't actually, I've never thought about it like this. But now looking back, being my older self, it was super reassuring. And it's probably, it's definitely the basis we needed, especially as a couple of,
• 38:27
  for both our families to come and our friends and our group to make the effort to come out and actually, they all got to know each other as well. So we created this beautiful family that kept in touch over continents across the globe over the years. People who visited others in Trinidad and the US and Canada and Malaysia.
• 38:51
  that natural sort of cohesion and network was definitely something that has kept us also supported. When you think about marriage as well, to keep that union, it's so hard these days to work on that. But when you have this...
• 39:13
  built-in kind of family that's there cheering you on and wanting you guys to be together, that support is definitely important and necessary. You've spoken a little bit about cross-cultures and it just made me think, what was it like getting to know, in those early phases of getting to know your husband, being American, what did you have to kind of get used to? What did you have to teach him culturally? And also, just for yourself, what?
• 39:41
  Let's rewind before you get to that. How do you feel in terms of culturally? Do you feel more British? Do you feel more Trinidadian? Do you feel more Ghanaian? Where do you feel?
• 39:52
  It's hard because, all right, so I was born in the UK. When you're talking, I want to switch up my accent. I want to speak like a Trini because it's so natural in me. So I'm very Caribbean, you know, colorful. I'm very Caribbean in that sense. Yeah.
• 40:11
  But it's only 10 of my early years. When you think about the lifetime, I spent more of my time in the UK. And that reserved British thing also creeps in quite a bit. And it's quite a huge influence in a lot that I do and how I carry myself and you know. But then sometimes,
• 40:39
  I will just get this soulful, spiritual something that I can't put my finger on and I know that that is my Ghanaian self. Okay. You know? So third culture kid or fourth culture or whatever you want to call it, do we ever really fit into one place? Do we belong? The world, the globe, global? Yes.
• 41:08
  I like to think of myself as a global African. Okay. Yeah, so with, you know, born in the UK, Trinidadian, Indo-Trinidadian at that, my mother is of East Indian descent, and then
• 41:28
  British and Ghanaian cultures, but rooted in Africa, because we chose South Africa as home, and we've been here for 16 years. My son is born here in Cape Town, and he always reminds us, he says...
• 41:43
  I'm South African, not you guys. But he also is American, British, Trini and Ghanaian. He lived in Ghana for two years with us as well. So I actually did that as well. I spent two years in Ghana, four months in Nigeria. So I got a West African experience for the family. Why did you do that?
• 42:10
  I'll come back to that. Just before I go to that, I wanted to answer your question about Stephen and his American culture. And so he's quite different in that he's not a typical American. He left the US in the 90s and worked in Sweden, Barcelona, lived in the UK, has a Jamaican grandfather.
• 42:35
  We reach everywhere, babes. You guys are like Nigerians. One in five. So he has always been an exposed person, but he was the one that kept coming to Ghana. He was going to Ghana before me, and he thought he was more Ghanaian than me. It was hilarious. And so the values we had, I always think we're really equally yoked. It's really difficult to find people like that,
• 43:05
  Because of his grandfather's Caribbean heritage and his grandfather instilled quite a bit in the household. And because of his global values and community values, he comes from a big family. I come from a big family. We naturally, I think, had a very sort of similar value system and background, which made it a lot easier.
• 43:35
  So I think there are quite a bit of differences in our value systems. I do think so. I would agree, even without knowing Stephen or the entire American population. When you say you lived in Ghana for a little bit, I'm really interested, because that would have been a conscious decision to make, right? Why did you feel that that was important?
• 43:57
  It was a calling. So this was during COVID. We were in Johannesburg and then at the time there was this really stringent lockdown. Okay. And Stephen's job required him to travel. Even with the lockdowns kind of easing up in the rest of the world, South Africa still had level four or level five and it was very difficult to travel out. And my mom said to me, you know what?
• 44:25
  why don't you look at Ghana? Because Ghana's COVID rates were really low. Okay. And traveling in and out of Ghana was- Easier. Easier. You just had to have the tests, et cetera. So we said, okay, why not? We just packed up the house and moved to Accra,
• 44:47
  And subsequently ended up staying there for two years. It was the best thing I could have done because there was almost like this spiritual calling that I needed to touch base with the ancestors. I had lived in my mother's ancestral land, but I hadn't really had a connection so much to my father's home. Even though we visited from age 17, I was going back and forth probably every other year. Yep. I'd never- But to spend extensive time. Extensive time living there.
• 45:15
  And I felt it was just the time, the time to go and see and really immerse culturally. What did you learn during that time that was different from the visits? So...
• 45:34
  There's a community life there that we, when we get westernized, and Trinidad is also becoming like this. It wasn't like this when I was growing up, but England for sure, London is definitely that. People are insular. They don't even say good morning to their neighbors. I wanted my son to have those basic values that we grew up with in Trinidad, where everybody's auntie, everybody's uncle. You say good morning, you say good evening.
• 46:03
  You have manners. And just have that cultural immersion to add to what he experienced in South Africa. But he was only what, six, seven years old, which is still a good time. But even for me,
• 46:26
  It made me also understand how westernized I was. Because certain things, okay, so for instance, where we were staying in the area, an elder passed on, he was about 100 and something years old.
• 46:40
  So, you know, the funeral goes on for days, and the noise, we call it noise, the drumming, and so Stephen, I remember him being on the phone to my dad saying, Dad, he has a great relationship, by the way, with my parents, he said, Dad, um,
• 46:57
  this noise that, you know, it's really like, we can't even sleep at night. My dad said, you know, you're so westernized. You're looking at it the wrong way. This is an upstanding elder in your community. Instead of being inside complaining about the noise, you should be out there celebrating his life. You should be out there with the community, you know. And he was like,
• 47:18
  Yeah, you're right. And I had to even check myself. I'm like, yeah, that's true. That's what that's what I would do in Trinidad. Right. So, you know, now this British way of I need my sleep, me, me, me, my peace, my space, you know, actually was shaken a little bit. And it was it was a necessary shaking. I think it's good. And for AJ, he was, oh, whatever. It's, you know, part of it. He actually had an interesting
• 47:46
  time with the school as well where he
• 47:49
  they still have this corporal punishment that I mean some of the schools I went to 40 something years ago in Trinidad we get a whip right he was made to kneel outside in the sun with his hand in the air and he came home and he said mommy this is crazy and of course it's crazy in this time in this day and age but it's it's interesting for him to also understand well this is what mommy and daddy went through too not that I want him to go through that you always want better for
• 48:19
  it's interesting how culturally that's still kind of and I think that's a product of colonialism you know still part of society there that they feel that you have to have hardship in order to learn in order to learn yeah yeah yeah
• 48:38
  And then was there ever a point during that period that you thought about staying in Ghana or were you just waiting to come home to Cape Town? It was Cape Town or bust. Okay. Ghana, I think two years for me was...
• 48:55
  Good. Good and necessary. But then when you start layering or you start, you do a matrix, right? Especially when you have a family, you have to look at health care, education, then cost of living, disposable income for enjoying yourself and entertainment and whatnot. All of the things.
• 49:13
  And I think at this point we actually were looking at maybe Brazil. Okay. So we put all the places that we know, USA, UK, Brazil, Trinidad, South Africa, into this matrix.
• 49:30
  And you put 10 points for each, you know, and you grade each thing. And South Africa wins 10 out of 10 times because the infrastructure, the cost of living, the health care system, education. OK, you pay for private education, etc. But all of that.
• 49:48
  would always win. Ghana has gotten so expensive. I remember back in the day, I would go to Ghana with a few pounds in my pocket and I would be balling. Now I go and I'm just 12 euros for a glass for water in a restaurant or whatever. People have said that the influx of Americans in Ghana has caused the rise of pricing to really skyrocket.
• 50:14
  I think so, but it's not sustainable. It really isn't sustainable. Even the Americans, everybody is complaining. It's, you know, I would pay prices like that in the south of France, Saint-Tropez. And I'm like, you're still a cry. Come on now, you bitch. Ah, chalet. Come again. Yeah. Come again. You can't give me a half-assed product, matcha, whatever. Yep.
• 50:43
  but it's not culinary grade matcha. You're giving me, and then you're charging me. Culinary grade. More than culinary grade. They don't even charge that in Japan. You know, for people who travel and people who know how far their dollar goes. Right. You know, especially going to places like Thailand where you can get so spoiled. Yes. On $5 massage on the beach, you know. Cape Town, where things are...
• 51:10
  You know, OK, you know, you get great quality food, great, great quality wines, beautiful environments. Yeah. And you're not even charging me a third of the price that I'm paying in Accra. You know, I love my people and I love I love my dad's country, but sort it out. It's not sustainable.
• 51:31
  Yeah, I mean, for Jamaica, food prices are ridiculous. Every time I go home, I'm like, how are people surviving? Let alone post-Hurricane Melissa that wipes out your entire bread basket. It's just, I'm figuring out... So everything's imported now?
• 51:46
  You have to supplement, right? Because, you know, and again, things don't grow overnight, right? With farming, it takes time. So even if you're replanting, you're starting. When I saw images of Hurricane Melissa, I'm not exaggerating, for two weeks I was crying every single day, for strangers, for people that I had no idea. And to the point where...
• 52:05
  I had to stop consuming the news all the time. And then I felt guilty because what a privilege to be in that you can turn it off for a second. And there's that balance between, you know, I don't want to be so far removed because I'm literally in Indonesia at this point.
• 52:21
  But at the same time, I have to kind of protect my peace. Yes. And it was becoming just destructive because it looked like war. It looked like bombs had gone off. You know, I've seen hurricanes. Yes, everybody would tell you Gilbert, that was before my time and that was the worst. But it was honestly shocking. But to speak to what you're saying about you can have love for your country. I mean, I feel like I'm in this process of figuring out how do I make it back home. And food pricing is a huge consideration. You know, people talk about crime. I'm not scared about that. No.
• 52:50
  I'm like on a daily basis, I want to eat well and food is astronomical. And I think that's the bit with Ghana as well, because a local would say, well, why are you drinking matcha? Why don't you drink sobol or whatever? You know, and yes, but I'm also somebody who is global and exposed and I want to also be able to afford and enjoy all of this.
• 53:14
  all of it at a reasonable rate, not necessarily feel like I'm being raped every time I open my wallet. Literally. And that becomes exhausting as well because they hear the accent. Even though my father is Ghanaian, I never really grew up speaking Tui because my mother and him spoke English. Right. So when I go back, I'm almost treated, like you said, obruni, which is...
• 53:38
  like a white woman. Right. And you know, and it's your white woman pricing, you get white woman pricing, you're a foreigner, you know, and they're looking out pounds are coming, you know? Um, so it's, it's really kind of, I'm just okay, baby. The heck? So sorry. That's fine. It's my fault. Cause usually I remind people that I forgot. Yeah, but it's, that should be on silent. Okay. I'll just go into airplane. No problem, baby. I'm so sorry.
• 54:08
  Yeah, so I think with that whole thing, and I think also here in Cape Town and in South Africa, local Capetonians are also complaining because the more influx of tourism we're getting here, the more prices are going up for the locals, especially locals are being priced out of even being able to afford certain housing because people are coming in- Buying property. Buying property, but also renting at a certain
• 54:37
  and locals are being pushed out more and more to further out of the city centre. So that's also, you know, we have to find a balance of...
• 54:51
  Yes, please come and enjoy. Please come and spend your dollars. Please come and spend your pounds. But let's try to be mindful of how that also affects the locals. As a consumer coming and traveling here, what are things that we ought to be doing to kind of be mindful?
• 55:11
  I would say do a bit of research. Don't just tip like crazy. Do a bit of research around what are the typical prices that you might pay. Speak to people who've been here a long time that can give you a heads up. Some guidance. And some guidance. Especially if you're moving here or you're going to be here for an extended period of time. You know...
• 55:37
  When you start paying double and triple the prices that we would pay... That becomes a new base. It becomes a new base, and then it's inflation. It's forced inflation. So don't just be like, oh, it's cheap. You know, it's cheap because it converts to being cheap. Try and have an understanding of the cost of things. Look at the consumer pricing index. Look at, read the news, understand what's happening locally, and...
• 56:05
  Get to know your waiters and whatnot. But also don't just buy into the, you know, the sub stories as well. Everybody has it. We all have sub stories, but sometimes people are like, oh, you know, I just want to be the saviour. And then they throw money at the situation. But you can't, that's not sustainable as well. You can't throw money at every single person who has a sub story. So it...
• 56:32
  It's really delicate, but if you're gonna come here, try and really get to know locals as well. Don't just come and do the flashy expat things. Why were you considering Brazil?
• 56:50
  because when I first visited Brazil, I thought to myself, if I could speak Portuguese, this is where I would live. It's the energy, it's just a vibe, like the people are beautiful, like you, they're just, and then they walk with this samba and this dress and it's very, it's trini, it's like here, you know?
• 57:15
  In that there is a melting pot and a diversity of people and the foods and everything like that. And then there's that African influence. Yes. But then there's an energy which is lacking here. Okay. And that we can go on about for a whole other session. But that has to do with the history, you know, the oppression, which Brazil had way longer time ago. Yes. And the way they dealt with it is a, you know, different way as well.
• 57:45
  I felt like the energy just grabbed me when I was there. I would live there. Having lived here for so long, what have you noticed? We've spoken a little bit about the influx of people, of tourists coming, but have you noticed any other changes living here for a while? Because most people that I speak to, they're very new. So I'm interested to speak to someone who has been here for longer. What have you seen?
• 58:09
  So, look, development, the built environment is nuts. There's so much housing and apartment blocks and that type of thing going up. I think there are a lot more Americans here than when we first came. A lot more Americans looking at moving here and visiting. I think they were number three out of the
• 58:37
  I read somewhere they did a table of the number of tourists that came in. UK was number one. 400,000 tourists we attracted to Cape Town this year from the UK. And then America was second and then Germany third. So the US was second because there was a thing between the US embassy and the UK embassy. They had a bit of a rivalry. Yeah.
• 59:01
  because US was first last year or something. So it's really interesting to see that because previously it would be much more of a European... Instination. ...influx and destination. I think...
• 59:16
  It's becoming more African as well. You're getting a lot more African tourism, so, and all through the year. So before it would be, the months would be November to February would be the peak season.
• 59:33
  Now it's going, I have an Airbnb beneath like part of my house that is, you know, helps pay the mortgage. And I'm seeing a ton of requests right up till April. Okay. And then even from April to September, there's this short term people want to stay through the winter. And I'm just...
• 59:58
  a bit surprised by that because before it would definitely be Cape Town would be dead after April, May. Right. A lot of the locals also go off and go on holiday, but now it just seems vibey all year round. So I'm seeing that, which is great for Cape Town.
• 1:00:14
  We're seeing a lot more things like festivals and economy being driven by conferences and that type of thing more throughout the year as well. And I think it's a great time for Cape Town to really grab that by the horns and become this southern...
• 1:00:38
  pillar, you know, where people would come for whatever conferences, whatever marathons and that type of thing, you know. What is the hardest thing about moving abroad?
• 1:00:51
  I think being really far away from family, especially as parents age, that becomes pretty scary actually. Especially, you know, for my husband, you have to travel two days to get back to the US, right? Okay. 24 hours or whatever it is. Whereas I could probably jump on a plane this evening, six o'clock, and I'll be back in London tomorrow morning, no jet lag, and I'm good to go.
• 1:01:18
  But it's still a long way away from parents, especially for people who have been very close to family and have big families. So that's one of the hardest things. And then I think just sort of,
• 1:01:33
  you know, that expectation of you to always have that emotional support and have it together, you know, it's hard. You have to make your own sort of family here. But once you do that, things become easier. But I think in the initial stages, that strength and that emotional support that you're used to having, that fallback as well, you know, because in the UK...
• 1:02:00
  There are systems, like if I lose my job or whatever. Initially, when I was here, I wasn't able to just go into work. I had to figure things out, set up a consultancy because my visa wouldn't allow me to do certain things or...
• 1:02:17
  You know, now it's a lot easier. I'm a permanent resident. But before that, in those initial stages, just looking back, that's really difficult, not having that initial sort of support that you would have in your home, you know, in your home country.
• 1:02:35
  I don't have to pay for health care in the UK and all of that stuff. So when you first came, I appreciate that moving halfway across the world and also a relatively new relationship is quite a lot. Right. And I'm wondering, do you think that move helped your relationship in those early days or do you think that it added another layer of management? Yeah.
• 1:02:59
  I would say it definitely helps to think, okay, he's got my back and I've got his, you know, because that's your person. And you're like, you literally have that one person. But not saying, you know, I mean, we had our moments where I was just like, I'm going back. Really? Oh yeah. Do you remember what caused any of those thoughts? I mean, you'd have an argument and it would be, thinking back at- In the back of your mind, you're like, you know what?
• 1:03:28
  Yeah, you'd have an argument and you're just like, is this working for me? Am I in the right place? Is this for me? Times of financial distress as well, struggle where you're like, like I said, when I came initially, I cannot work. So I had to figure out how to be an entrepreneur. And I, you know, luckily for me.
• 1:03:58
  So,
• 1:04:01
  you're in a foreign country and now you're just like, okay, I can't just apply for a job like, you know, like a local, like I'm, especially because of the laws here, because of the employment laws here. Oh, they're particularly... Oh, very much so, very much, and rightfully so. To protect South Africans. To protect South Africans, rightfully so. And if you come with that mentality of they must give me a job or I'm highly skilled and I deserve a job,
• 1:04:29
  Wrong place, babes. Wrong place. You better come again. I think if you're coming here and you're coming to add to the economy and make an impact and grow businesses and create jobs, it's much more fulfilling than coming here and trying to see what you can take out of here. Right. Yeah. My question is when relationships have problems, challenges anywhere in the world, right?
• 1:04:58
  Do you think that being abroad makes those things more difficult? Because sometimes I think, for example, on a friendship level, I have lived elsewhere and realized that I was only friends with that person because we were both out of our comfort zone together. Right. And then you're like...
• 1:05:16
  But really and truly, we're not really friends, right? It's circumstantial. Or I think of the times when I've done long distance and you might have a difference of opinion on the phone that if we were in person, maybe you'll just hug it out and it wouldn't really be a thing, you know? And I'm wondering when you move with somebody, do you think that the small day-to-day relationship norms, do they feel bigger when you're both out of your comfort zone or is it irrelevant? Right.
• 1:05:47
  gosh, you're really forcing me to think here. To reflect back on the day, I know. To really reflect. Um...
• 1:05:55
  I think for us, though, we remember we had we had like an eight year friendship before prior to then. Then we lived together for two years and then we got married. Right. So it was progression. It was friendship first. It was it's a I think it's a different dynamic than if you just met somebody six months ago and then you decide to move or if you.
• 1:06:22
  you know, newly in a relationship, um, and you decide to move, I think that makes a difference, but, um, you know, just reflecting on the moments where I thought I've got to go back home or I'm going back home or I miss my family or I miss my friends. Um,
• 1:06:42
  then you just come back to, he is my family. Before my son was born, you know. And now we're actually lucky because his mom's moved here as well. So I've got my mother-in-law here. And you know, my parents come and visit often. We have a lot of people coming, and that's the thing about Cape Town.
• 1:06:59
  Gosh, you can't get a moment. I was like, season is over, isn't it? More friends are coming in, more friends are coming in. So over the years, it's been beautifully transient like that. We get a lot of people, a lot of friends visiting. But I hear what you're saying about that connection as well. Because when I lived in Joburg, for instance,
• 1:07:26
  I made friends, the second time I lived in Joburg, sorry, not the first time, but the second time I lived in Joburg, I made a network of friends where now I feel like, hang on, they're only in Joburg, but we're not as close because people have moved back. One has moved back to Chicago, one's moved back to Holland.
• 1:07:46
  you then think reason, season, lifetime. Yes. Reason, season, lifetime. And the friends that I had made in Cape Town the first time around are still in my life as that tribe that I initially talked about. And that's kind of the family, the lifetime connections. But I don't take lightly any of the connections. I think people come into your life, like you say, for a reason. And I cherish those connections.
• 1:08:13
  I wouldn't say they weren't friendships. I wouldn't call them acquaintances. They were friendships. For that time. For that time. And everything moves in that quantum, you know, space, time. Mm. So, and that's all we take with us when we die as well, right? That energy, those connections. And I think giving the love that you would give to the reason, the season or the lifetime, just give equally that love.
• 1:08:41
  I feel like that's kind of where I've landed on. Even though nowadays I'm just like, oh, I'm going to meet you where you meet me. But I think Instagram makes you kind of go a little bit. The algorithm is teaching you the things that you want to see today and not necessarily reflect and think deeply about. Talk to me a bit about motherhood. When you, again, it's such an important time...
• 1:09:09
  And how long have we lived here by that point before we have our child? So my son was born in 2014, so four years. Okay. So you've been here four years, you're having a child. And what are you thinking that motherhood's going to look like in South Africa? And does it match whatever you foresee it to be? Gosh.
• 1:09:31
  What we see motherhood to be was work in England, in Trinidad, in Ghana. Well, not so much Ghana, but in Trinidad. And it's a village raising your child. And, you know, and it's work. Whereas here...
• 1:09:49
  I felt like where it should have been more work because I didn't have my family as the village, it actually feels easier. When I took my baby to the US or to the UK, then it was worse. Okay. When I was, you know, when we would visit. Yeah. And purely by the fact that help is so affordable here.
• 1:10:10
  You know, he had a nanny full time, sometimes two nannies, you know, I would have a life as well. I got back to things a lot quicker than I think my counterparts in the UK would have got back to things, you know. I also I'm really lucky and not boasting about my husband. But my husband is a great hands on dad, like he would
• 1:10:36
  I've changed nappies. I think I probably changed a dirty, like a poopy nappy, maybe three times. I could probably count on one hand because he said, you carried my boy, so I'm gonna do this part, which I thought was beautiful.
• 1:10:52
  So, you know... That is definitely the British in you, babes, about I don't want to boast. I will boast for you, okay? Big up the good husbands, okay? Big up. That help. Yes, you carried the bubble. And he's Jamaican too. Yes, big up the good Jamaican man. Yes, yes, yes. No, he... And he's still very, very hands-on. And, yeah, I think that helps. I think... Um...
• 1:11:21
  Our community as well, a lot of the friends, some of the friends have kids similar ages. And so again, that village was present and built in. So we would also chip in. Sometimes, especially at this age, my son is 11 now,
• 1:11:39
  They're not listening to mommy or daddy. They don't care what we have to say, but they might hear what uncle or auntie has to impart. I love that you brought this up because I was saying the other day the importance of that village that we're lacking. But also, when you look at westernized countries, they might complain that there's no village, but they also don't leave space for the village. So you get into this weird energy of, let's say, you know, Auntie Cheryl, I introduce you to my kids, right? And you want to tell them,
• 1:12:07
  don't jump on the couch, for argument's sake. But I feel in Western cultures, you may feel uncomfortable to tell my child, don't jump on the couch, because when you tell my child that, I then tell you, don't speak to my child. And you can't have it both ways. You can't say that you want the support of the village, but you're not leaving space for the village to do what the village needs to do. And it's funny because my sister, even this morning,
• 1:12:32
  One of my daughters, her tummy was a little bit upset and she said she didn't want me to go to work today. And I called my sister and I said to my sister what I've just said to you. So I said, oh, I thought I'd call auntie. And she goes, got it. So she then takes over and basically reiterates...
• 1:12:48
  what I was trying to say. But like you say, sometimes it coming from auntie, it will just translate differently. And it's not necessarily that my child won't listen to me, but it's nice for them to know that actually there's a general consensus that this is what ought to happen. And it just feels more comforting
• 1:13:06
  It feels more like the right thing to do. And I think it's very easy in certain societies to underestimate the value of having that auntie or uncle voice. And I don't mean literal blood, by the way, just in case, because some people don't really understand how auntie and uncle go, right? Like, it's any...
• 1:13:22
  adult in your scene. And I even take it a step further, I am super particular about who's around my child for that reason. Because I want when you come to my house that you know that your voice has strength as mine would. And so if you and I don't see eye to eye, babes, you can't come around the house, not when they're little, right? We can wait till they're older and the foundation is strong. That's fine. But in these early years, if you and I, if I can't trust
• 1:13:49
  that what you're going to say to my child I'm going to agree with, instead of me telling you, you know, Cheryl, please don't sit at, please don't sit at. In my mind, babes, you just don't come. Right. You know what I mean? And so I love that you brought up the importance of having your community be able to also voice, you know, some of the things that might be on your mind. Yeah. In terms of schools and things like that, because...
• 1:14:12
  Even before schools, I speak to a lot of people where they have this idea that you can't have your child. As an expat, an immigrant, whatever word people like to use, as a foreigner into a place. Did you feel comfortable from the time you were pregnant knowing that your child would be born here? Or did you consider having the baby in England? I think because I was so impressed with the health care system and so...
• 1:14:40
  Let me step back a bit. So Stephen has two older daughters. Okay. Our second daughter came here for a bit as well. So I had the opportunity to look into schooling, into school systems, and...
• 1:14:57
  Because of that, that was reassuring once I was pregnant. Right. Because she never ended up moving here, but we had... Done the research. Done the research. So that kind of helped laid the groundwork for my son when he was born. But honestly, just everything...
• 1:15:19
  I'm so sorry, but when I go back to London, things just feel ghetto sometimes. Especially with healthcare. Oh, with healthcare. And look, I come from a family that have, you know, Windrush and then whatever. It's NHS. A lot of them work and support and still do work in the NHS. My mum's a retired midwife. You know, my auntie was also a midwife. Fathers in the psychology field with...
• 1:15:45
  So a lot of my family cousins, et cetera, still support and work in this NHS system. And I don't want to bad talk that system, but you can't compare, maybe if I'm comparing apples with apples, maybe if I had to have my kid in
• 1:16:04
  I don't know, the general hospital here. Okay. And then compare that to... A general hospital. A general hospital in England. Then we're comparing apples with apples. Then I would definitely run back to London to have my child. But luckily, the work we're doing pays a nice health insurance.
• 1:16:22
  And you're covered. So, you know, you have a good health insurance. It's funny that you say about the health insurance because when I was having my child, I looked into private versus public hospital. Where? In England. So I had my children, my child, they're twins. They're common pairs.
• 1:16:43
  Sometimes they come as well. So when I had them, I was living just six minutes from Chelsea and Westminster. And so I looked into it only from the perspective of the statistic that black women are more likely to die in childbirth in the UK. I think it's about four times. In the UK? Yeah, man. Four times more likely or three. Three or four times. Okay. We're more likely to die. And the reason that's relevant is because when I shared this article with my dad, his first thing is,
• 1:17:11
  Let's go home. Let's go to Jamaica. Why are we having children over here? I'm like, Dad, hold on. I feel confident that I can advocate for myself, etc. But the point is we did look into private versus general. And then only to find out that it's the same doctor. Oh, really? They literally walk across the hall. Oh, really? Yes, which I thought it was a completely separate system. And they were like, no, no, no. It's a nicer room, a nicer facility. But it's the same team. So the same team that's going to discriminate me over here. Will discriminate you over there?
• 1:17:40
  Over there. And I was like, that makes no sense to me. So it's really interesting that you talk about comparing apples with apples. Because, again, I think that going back to what we were saying earlier about this idea of what we have of first world versus third world, you know, in Jamaica, I've had the same doctor my entire life. Right. So in terms of continuity of care.
• 1:17:58
  In terms of the fact that even when I was living in England, I would text him first if I had a question about the babies. Because again, sometimes you go to the doctor and as a first time mother, they kind of disregard your fears because they presume you're going to be too anxious or whatever.
• 1:18:15
  And so I would always check with him first. I would check with my pediatrician in Jamaica first and then ask them for guidance. Do I need to go to A&E because I can't get an appointment now? Or is this something that can wait? And the reason that's relevant is because even if there was an issue with me now or my dad now, that's my first point of call, even though I haven't lived in Jamaica consistently for the last 10 years. Whereas I would never see the same doctor in the UK. That's beautiful, though, that you can...
• 1:18:43
  Call on my people. Yeah. I think so. If you had something that you were that urgently needed attention in the pregnancy.
• 1:18:58
  If you were paying a private, are you immediately put up that list of... Let's see, he has to see five or six patients that day. So I think that's where the priority and the service comes in. And then probably, sadly...
• 1:19:15
  Probably, he would probably pay more attention to detail because he is more at risk at being sued when somebody is coming through a private system. What I like about the doctors and healthcare here, they all train. When you look at their certifications, if you ever have to go to a healthcare specialist here, a lot of them train in township hospitals as well. So...
• 1:19:43
  At first, I was just like, oh, maybe I need to find a doctor of color, a gynae, that, you know, because we get issues with fibroids, we get so many different issues to our white female counterparts. And that's why there's a lot of these childbirth, a lot of things lead to death in childbirth because we have a slightly more complicated system sometimes. And what I realized here was that,
• 1:20:14
  white male, white female, whatever doctor they are, they seen more of us, more black females, than any white doctor in the UK or even the US because the population here is majority black. And when they have to do their training and they get put into a hospital that is
• 1:20:36
  a general public hospital, the majority of their parents, the majority of their patients are going to be black, male and female. So they are very au fait, more so with our makeup. So that made me feel super comfortable as to whether I would choose a gynae here over a gynae in the UK. And I'd do it a hundred out of a hundred times, I would go to a gynae here.
• 1:21:04
  If I can find a gynae who looks like me, even better, you know, even better. But I don't feel uncomfortable going to a man, a white man, doctor here. It's interesting, isn't it? It's amazing. It's interesting. And in terms of schooling...
• 1:21:23
  So schooling for us, for me, was really important to have a system that embraces diversity. A lot of the private schools do have a majority, a makeup that doesn't reflect Africa. So we chose the American International School because in my son's class, for instance,
• 1:21:50
  he has 18 different nationalities of children. It's really important for us as global citizens. That might not rank high on another person's, you know, then I look at, okay, are they IB? Are they Cambridge? What's their pass rate? What schools are the kids ending up at? Sure.
• 1:22:12
  you know, the way academics and the way AI and academia is going right now, I feel like placing a lot more emphasis on academics is probably not the way for me. Right. The way for me is that I'm raising a child who will be
• 1:22:28
  connected globally to when his friends go off to back to Japan back to America back to the UK and they're all doing their thing and they leave school because they're building this this this network when they leave school and even if he comes out with mediocre and not the best academics he is built into a beautiful global network and that was that was what why I chose um
• 1:22:52
  that school. A lot of parents want the sports, so they go for a bishop, so, you know, they want the water polo and the rugby and the cricket. Some parents want to make sure that their kids get the IB, uh...
• 1:23:09
  So it all depends what's important to you. And then in terms of the fact that you explained that you were able to have a really good experience in motherhood, do you think that you're a different mother having lived here versus London?
• 1:23:26
  I definitely think I wouldn't have as much patience in London because I'd be trying to get to work, trying to make sure the house is clean. I would probably be putting a lot of pressure on my child to make sure he's... It goes both ways, though, because right now I feel like I'm raising...
• 1:23:46
  What am I raising? He wakes up and a nanny serves some breakfast and, you know, that type of thing. But at the same time, I feel that, OK, I've got to be grateful for the fact that I get quality time with my child. I'm not.
• 1:24:01
  complaining or under pressure to provide certain things to him. You know, I think that really does create a whole different way of parenting and a way that when I look back at my parents, I'm just like, how did they do it?
• 1:24:20
  three children, how did they do it? Three children, both of them working, you know, sometimes working overtime, sometimes my dad working two jobs. And I still feel like I had a great upbringing, I still feel like I have a great relationship with my parents, but I just, I really respect, I really respect that type of parenting as well, you know?
• 1:24:46
  It's funny that you say about your son and relationship with nannies, etc. And my children right now, they have no idea that their lives are not normal. Because they're five. They don't know. This is normal.
• 1:25:02
  And there's certain things they say that crack me up. I had an Airbnb here that didn't have a pool because I couldn't find one with a pool. And it's the first time this year that they've stayed anywhere. And just to be clear, we move every month. We tend to move to a different part of the country every week. Oh, wow. And so my one daughter is getting up asking me if we're taking a taxi or a plane today. Because for her, it's just a mode of transport. Yesterday, she said, could we go to London to get nanny's soup just for the day? And then go to Bali to get the coconut.
• 1:25:32
  But she's dead serious. She's dead serious because Nova's tummy was hurting. So she's like, we could go to London just for the day for the soup. And then get the coconut. I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. So we get to the Airbnb. There's no pool. She goes around the house. And she says...
• 1:25:48
  Where's the swimming pool? I'm like, don't worry, we're moving next week. I couldn't get it. But for her, it's just like matter of fact, normal. And it makes me laugh because on the one hand, of course, I want my children to have the exposure, to see the world, to have nice things. You know, even one daughter said, where's the water dispenser? Because in Bali, we always have a machine for the water. And she was appalled that you had to pour it out of a bottle.
• 1:26:16
  Because where's the machine? Right. The reason I bring it up is because my dad did a really good job at providing you with everything. So you'll be familiar with the term helper. You know, we had the helper in the house in Jamaica. You had the driver, all of that stuff.
• 1:26:34
  But he did really good at making sure that you weren't a spoiled brat. Right. And for his tool for that, I do think was work. So I worked from I was eight years old. All the holidays, you'd go to work with dad. And every so often he would sit.
• 1:26:50
  send the driver in a lada i don't know if you know what a lot is yeah it's like a skoda looking car and i went to embarrassing oh my completely like mortified to the point you you try and negotiate if you could meet the driver around the corner outside please just so that nobody had to see you
• 1:27:08
  Daddy, you didn't send my Porsche today. And he would just be like, the day you think you're too good to get in that car, the day we have a bigger problem, I suggest you be ready. And there was no arguing, right? When he put on the serious voice, the negotiation done, right? You better be there. And the point is, is that...
• 1:27:25
  I have thought about ways, you know, to make sure that my children don't get completely out of touch. Another thing that was really good from a school system in Jamaica is that we had to do community service. You couldn't graduate, right? And again, it was an opportunity...
• 1:27:41
  to be grateful, to understand that there's another side. And so I appreciate this is age-related, and it might be too soon, but, like, even with my girls, you know, when the nanny's looking after them now, and I will say to the nanny, if they don't say please, they're usually very good, but children are children. If they do not say please, if they do not say thank you, please remind them. Because, again, there's that weird relationship where some parents, going back to not wanting a village to speak to your children, some parents...
• 1:28:08
  bring this energy as though the nanny shouldn't speak to the child, you know, shouldn't discipline. And I say discipline because for me, that's not discipline. That's just normal courtesy. And I'm just wondering, have you thought about how you're going to balance providing your child with all of these opportunities, but making sure they're not a spoiled brat? Can I just say that's the bit that keeps me up at night. It's like some people are like, okay, turnover of my business, Ebita keeps me up at night. It does a bit, but the, the,
• 1:28:37
  thing that really keeps me up at night. And I, you know, I have a slightly different upbringing to you. I actually grew up in the, when I spent the 10 formative years in Trinidad and Tobago, my mom is from the deep south of Trinidad, which is, you know,
• 1:28:52
  The antithesis of the north of Trinidad where the bougie and the... And she's from a family of indentured laborers that... Her ancestors would have been indentured laborers. That inherited plantation land. So...
• 1:29:12
  We grew up in a village, quarry village in the south of Trinidad. And I grew up with a toilet that was outside, you know, the latrine. Yes. I grew up with taking my bucket to the shower and bathing cup, bucket to cup.
• 1:29:31
  You try and explain that to a kid who only has only ever had a swimming pool in every single house that he's lived in. You know, you try and explain and they just say, oh, yeah, yeah. Back in the day when mommy would sleep under the stars and there would be no roof. Like, you know, they exaggerate and they take the piss kind of thing.
• 1:29:51
  And it is a struggle sometimes to get them to understand that we didn't... You've got to be grateful. We didn't just happen to have this. There is a struggle and work and a work ethic that brings you this. And so I like that you're... I love what your dad did. So that's my mum's side of the family. My dad's side of the family, on the other hand, when I first went to Ghana at 17...
• 1:30:21
  His father's house is a stone's throw from the Ashanti Hini's palace. Okay. He had five wives, 35 children. Um, and my dad grew up with driving Mercedes Benz at the age of 14. He had, he had the African way they had, uh, nannies and people to help and community that, uh, you know, the girls would come from the village to.
• 1:30:48
  to prep and clean and do like spoiled. I would look at that as spoiled. But what I was very kind of flabbergasted by, I was like, Dad, we grew up in Trinidad doing this stuff when you practically- Living large. You lived large when you were younger. And so in his own way, I think
• 1:31:16
  That helped us because right now his three children, myself, my sister and my brother, my brother's a pilot, my sister's, you know, she's been an oil field engineer, field engineer, and she's, he's brought up really strong women.
• 1:31:34
  grounded male. And I think us going through that in those 10 formative, or my 10 formative years of life, seeing him working two jobs and actually stepping back
• 1:31:49
  And he could have been at home running his father's plantations or doing whatever it is that one of the 35 children would have done. But he chose to not take on that and build his own. And I think having that example
• 1:32:07
  of you know parents my you know even my mom's family that were laborers and worked hard and that type of thing I think that instills different values in you so I think it's really important for us to make sure that our son understands work work ethic like you said you know I think it's great that you give them little chores make sure that you
• 1:32:33
  The smallest of things. Make sure your bed is made. Make sure you take your plate. I get him to set the table every night. We have dinner. He is in charge of setting the table. That's his chore. He wakes up. I say to him, put your pack away. Oh, auntie's going to do it. At least he calls her auntie as well. Auntie's going to do it. I said, no, auntie's going to help auntie to make it a little bit easier for her.
• 1:33:00
  um just basic looking after yourself um the other day we were at a friend's house and going back to what you were saying about having friends and community that tell that you can trust to to instill similar values with your kids um
• 1:33:17
  Another friend of ours, we were at their house for a barbecue. Beautiful home in Nandadno, overlooking the ocean, pool. They were doing a barbecue and jerk chicken because the wife is Jamaican.
• 1:33:35
  My friend says to my son, would you like a burger? And he was like, no, no, he's not ready right now. So he went off and then my friend's sitting there, he's eating, we're all, food is served and he's eating. And my son comes back to him and he says, okay uncle, can I have that burger now? And he says, young man, I'm gonna finish my food, then you're gonna cook your own burger.
• 1:33:59
  And I thought this was brilliant. He made my son get on the grill. He cooked his own burger. Not only did he cook his own burger, he cooked burgers for the girls. So there were two other little girls there. So he was the man. Check him out, babes. Cooking his burgers. Yeah.
• 1:34:15
  And then he made him clean the grill as well on top of it. And I thought to myself, that was just, for me, that was like, yes, this is like home. Like Trinidad, like these are the... And he didn't complain. He probably would have moaned and carried on if it was me or Stephen telling him to do it. And so that, again, hearing that different voice is also important. So it's quite a few things. I don't think any of us have it right, like 100%, right? Parenting is...
• 1:34:43
  You know, we're still all learning as we go along. But I think just kind of holding on to some of those values and being cognizant of some of the ways, some of the things we were raised with, we didn't turn out bad. So why do we want to turn over everything on its head? Why? Why are we always like, oh, it's softer parenting. No.
• 1:35:03
  know better, do better. Actually, we turned out fine. And I'm not saying we're all perfect, but I'm quite happy with how... I think you're right. We're going, and not just with parenting. I just feel this about life in general. We were maybe on one end of the spectrum. And yes, maybe some tweaks have helped. But I feel like with a lot of things, we've gone completely the opposite, as if everything back in the day was wrong. Yeah.
• 1:35:28
  Yeah. Yeah. In a way that just doesn't it doesn't align with the vibes. Do you think that your son, you mentioned that he always says that he's South African because he was born here. Do you think and I know that you can't speak for him. Right. But in your opinion, is this the place that he will foresee his life being or do you foresee that he is going to go off to different, you know, whether it's universities, colleges or just job opportunities elsewhere because you've raised this global citizen?
• 1:35:58
  He's already, he thinks he's going to be an NBA player. Okay. So he's already said, mommy, in grade eight, I have to move to the US because that's where the pathway. He's already researched and knows where he wants to be. And what grade is he in now? Grade six. So that's only a couple of years away. I know. Who's moving to the US?
• 1:36:18
  He was like, well, you can't put me in boarding school because I'm your only child. Oh, wow. I love that. But yeah, he's very certain that he has to live in the US for a bit. He sees Africa as, he sees South Africa as home. He sees Africa as...
• 1:36:36
  as, you know, as, he sees himself as a pan-African, having been to places on the continent. And he would, you know, he would go to America, be American, but still be the boy from Africa. Right. That's how he sees, I think he sees himself. He's quite an interesting little one because the stuff he comes out with, but, um,
• 1:37:03
  Yeah, in answer to your question, I think he's going to be global. I think, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we are raising. We are raising a global, another global citizen. When you left Trindad to move back to England, do you remember what that feeling was like?
• 1:37:24
  When I left Trinidad to move back to England, I felt like I want to go home. Trinidad felt like home. Trinidad was home because that's what I knew. Did you have a Trini accent, a hard one? I have a Trini accent. It's weird for me to speak in a Trini.
• 1:37:43
  Yes, I have a hard Trini accent. Okay. If I speak in my hard Trini accent, your audience will not understand. I had to do subtitles for another girl. A Trini girl living in Cambodia. Oh, really? And the editors. So the editors aren't Caribbean at all. And they were just like, April, we have to do subtitles for the whole thing. And I was like, is it that bad? And they were like, we don't understand anything. I was like, oh, my gosh. So I understand why. I completely get it. So it's code switching, right? Mm.
• 1:38:06
  You know, and going back to your question, it was a complete code switch for me. Because I now, I'm in a school, I'm in Essex. Okay. Of all places, because my mother and father were living in Leytonstone, and they didn't think, going back to inner cities and where things were, this was 1991. Okay. So, actually, my mom...
• 1:38:27
  left Trinidad to come back to England to get back into nursing and then left us in Trinidad with dad to then move us all. And we were without mom for about a year, nearly two years, which was the hardest thing I ever seen a mother do.
• 1:38:45
  You know, I could see when she came back to visit. And back then we didn't have internet or video phone or whatever. I would write a letter, those blue airmail. I don't even know if anybody knows about these things these days. Write a letter and wait for a response two weeks because it would take a week to get to her. She would write back and then I would get a letter a week after. How old were you at this? I was my son's age. I was 10, 11. Yeah.
• 1:39:10
  Yep. And my sister, four years younger, my brother, seven years younger. Right. So my brother was a baby, really, when he was about four years old. And so she goes back to England to work in to become a student nurse again. So she had to take a way step back because she had already qualified as a nurse, but left...
• 1:39:30
  the UK to come to Trinidad. And that's a whole other story because my dad got deported from the UK to Ghana. And then we lived in Germany for a bit because that's the only place he could be, me, my mom and my dad live in Berlin. And then my mom was saying, this is not working because she would be back and forth to Berlin from the UK. So she said, you know what? Let's just go to Trinidad because that's home. And that's again, the fallback as well of being global citizens as well from them.
• 1:39:56
  seeing how they were able to go... To navigate. To navigate and to go home. Same happened with myself and my husband, how we ended up back in Ghana. Right. And lucky to have that... All three of us have a Ghanaian passport. Okay. So going back to that, sorry, the reason we ended up in Ghana as well was when they did the airlifting...
• 1:40:18
  of US citizens out of South Africa when we were in Joburg that time. He could go. But you couldn't. I couldn't. I had a British passport. So I couldn't go back to the US with him because I'm not a US citizen. He couldn't come on my plane. They were taking British citizens to the UK. Our son could come anywhere. But now we would be split up as a family.
• 1:40:44
  But luckily for us, we're also Ghanaian. Okay. So we can all go. So your husband has a Ghanaian passport? Yeah. I don't know if we want to. Oh, sorry. Yeah, we do. He does. I don't know if we're a trumper. I don't know if you're allowed to have.
• 1:40:57
  He has no passports. That's fine. You're in Ghana. I'm a Jamaican. Oh, Lord. So we could probably do Trinidad. But even then, they wouldn't allow Jamaicans, even though Caribbean community. Yes. And then at that point, my son didn't have his Jamaican. Okay. So Ghana was the place. Ghana was the place. Right. So this is, again, why it's important to also...
• 1:41:22
  if you have children that are born in the UK, etc., make sure they have that other one. Because it's funny, going back to questioning, should I have the children at that time? Should I have them in the UK? One of the main reasons I did was because I find the UK Immigration Office picks up and chooses when the rules change. Because once I had... Oh, yeah.
• 1:41:43
  I was born in England as well and raised in Jamaica. And I have lost, I think they lost. And when I say I, I was too young for it to be my responsibility. So the adults in the room, they lost three passports. Right. To the point where they had given me after the second, they give you a temporary one. And if you lose that one, you can't get another passport for X amount of time. Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:03
  Somebody went and lost that one, but we found an old one and they hadn't blocked it. So I was traveling on a so-called blocked passport, but it was fine. Anyway, the point is, is that I remember going to the embassy in Jamaica. And the first time you went, the rule was the dad had to be Jamaican. Sorry, British for you to have British citizenship. And then the second time you went, they had changed the rule. It was like the mother again or something.
• 1:42:26
  And the point is, is that I felt for my children, I love Jamaica, but a British passport will get you much further in life. And so I felt it was important for them to be born there just so that whichever which way the rules changed, they will always have that as as backup.
• 1:42:44
  Yeah, so actually when I was coming back in 1991, so when I got back to the UK in 1991, I landed on my Trinidad passport but I had my British birth certificate. Okay. And they helped me in immigration. My mom came in and she was crying. So at the time the rule was if you're born in the UK, You're British. You're British. But what my mom had done was she had bought me a
• 1:43:11
  It was a return ticket. It was a return ticket, but my ticket wasn't returning for like three months or something because I was coming in on a Trinidad passport. And they wanted to know why was I staying this long? Why don't I don't I have school? Why am I? So then. But my mom said, but she's British. And they said, yeah, but she has a Trinidad passport. And at the time, the rule was if you're born before 1983, you.
• 1:43:36
  In the UK, if you're born there, you are British. And luckily for us, there was a woman who knew the rule. You know, she said, no, she's fine. She actually is British. She has a British birth certificate. My mum just had to get my passport sorted once I was there. Post-1983, that changed. Yes. And now, even if you're born in the UK, you have to have lineage and all of that. So...
• 1:44:02
  So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's important for you to bolster whatever you need for them, you know, and
• 1:44:14
  Yeah, but going back to that in 1991, when I got to the UK, my accent, my hair, I'm in Essex, kids are like touching my hair. Really? Yeah, I mean, you know, natural. When your hair is naturally curly, before blowouts, before I learned how to do my hair.
• 1:44:34
  Not that, not that, back, I mean back, it's so different now. Now you can be as free as you want and curly. Back then it was interesting. So I would stick out because I was literally the only black girl in the entire school. There was one other who was half Jamaican, half white. Okay. And then one other black guy who was Ghanaian. In an entire school, I was like,
• 1:45:04
  So it was a culture shock for me, because especially coming from the south of Trinidad, where you've got 41% Indians, 41% black, and then a couple of Chinese and white, et cetera. So massive culture shock for me then. And then my accent was so strong, they would take the piss out of my accent that
• 1:45:30
  I eventually started working back on my British accent because I was three years old when I left and I actually had a British accent to begin. But living in Trinidad. For that time. Yeah, for that time. So if you want me to switch, I can switch, but.
• 1:45:48
  If you want to do the work of subtitles. Because my accent is deep. Do you remember... You said that you wanted to go home when you were there. Do you remember... Was it hard to find friends? Did you have... When, as in in school, coming to... Because Essex also...
• 1:46:05
  Again, I learned that England is not one homogenous place. And the reason I say this is I went to boarding school in Bath when I was about 13. And my point of reference for England before then was London. So then I get to Bath and I'm like...
• 1:46:22
  This is not London, right? You're having people talk about, have you seen a school before? Or do you just live in a tree? You know, people making ape noises at you, which at that time wasn't happening. I mean, I'm not that old, you know, that wasn't happening in London. And so I'm just wondering. How old were you? 14? 13. So this is 2006. Wow. They're making monkey noises. Wow.
• 1:46:49
  Yeah, 2005 to 2006. And that has a profound effect on you as a female going forward forevermore.