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interview with Shawn Sullivan · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:03
  This is the Horse Human Connection.
• 0:06
  A captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning.
• 0:11
  Horse Training.
• 0:12
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:18
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
• 0:26
  The horse human connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:32
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
• 0:40
  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
• 0:49
  The Voice is this podcast.
• 0:52
  Welcome to today's episode.
• 1:04
  Hi, this is Ishii Abel, back with the Horse Human Connection Matrix.
• 1:08
  Today I have Sean Sullivan with me, who is the, he runs a, an autistic support group, among other things, and has a job where he gets to work as a, you don't have to correct me if I'm wrong, liaison with some autistic people in the workplace and how that, how that all shakes out.
• 1:28
  Is that pretty close?
• 1:31
  Kind of it.
• 1:32
  Yeah.
• 1:32
  My background is very strange.
• 1:34
  Okay.
• 1:35
  I work for the state of Oregon as a trainer.
• 1:37
  So I teach new employees.
• 1:39
  That's my day job.
• 1:41
  But then I have a 2nd job, which is my podcast 11's on heard voices, where I talk to all kinds of really cool, random people about really cool and unique experiences in life.
• 1:50
  And.
• 1:51
  I started that because I got tired of seeing all of the negativity and the negative conversations online.
• 1:57
  So I wanted a place or a platform where we could have positive conversations about what it means to be accepted and what it means to be, you know, your authentic self from the world.
• 2:09
  And then I also support the Autism Society of Oregon, which has the, I support two Evening support groups for adults on the autism spectrum and I do all kinds of events and things for them as well So I keep myself really busy these days.
• 2:23
  Oh that that is a whole lot.
• 2:24
  I didn't realize how extensive both of Your kind of day jobs and your podcast were so thanks for thanks for clarifying that there's just I have learned so much from you and being late diagnosed with Being on the autism spectrum.
• 2:39
  It's been it It shakes up your world quite a bit.
• 2:43
  And that's what happened to me.
• 2:45
  And I've been real grateful for all of your patient listening and, and compassion around that.
• 2:52
  It's one of those things that drives me, right?
• 2:54
  So, like, every time I have a conversation like that, and I can help another person sort of make that sort of basic understanding, I'm all for it, and it's one of those strange things where conversations like that actually fill my cup, and so I can do that, like, all day without running out of energy, whereas my day job, I'm exhausted by the end.
• 3:16
  Right.
• 3:17
  Yeah, it's, it's good to be able to do what you feel passionate about and what you feel like your purpose is.
• 3:24
  So what happened to me is not that uncommon.
• 3:26
  You've talked to quite a few people that, that end up surprised to know that they're on the spectrum and then kind of at a loss of how to proceed and what to do about that.
• 3:36
  Can you, can you speak to that a little bit?
• 3:39
  Yeah, because it's like a roller coaster, right?
• 3:41
  Like it's, it's one of those weird situations where once you hear that word autism and you start making that connection in your brain that it might apply to you, it opens the doors of possibility, but at the same time, it closes doors.
• 3:59
  And there's no turning back.
• 4:02
  It's not like you find out you're autistic and explain so much, but now you can go back and change that.
• 4:07
  You can't change what's happened to the to that point.
• 4:10
  And while autism helps explain a lot of things, it also, you have to go through a grieving process of the loss of the fact that you're not autistic.
• 4:22
  And.
• 4:23
  A lot of people don't understand the gravity of that, right?
• 4:27
  Because it takes so much mental power and so much effort to go back through your entire life and go, Oh, that's why I did that.
• 4:36
  Oh, that's why that happened.
• 4:38
  And like, everything makes sense.
• 4:39
  But then you kick yourself at the same time because you're like, Even if I knew I was autistic, I think I would have still done the same thing.
• 4:48
  Right.
• 4:48
  It's like, there's no, there's no real answer.
• 4:50
  Like you have a different awareness, you have a different map of the world that you've been navigating all these years.
• 4:56
  And yet there are blind spots that like, I've only known for a little over a year, but there are blind spots that I'm still trying to comprehend.
• 5:06
  If there's even a way to compensate for them or what they even are exactly.
• 5:12
  And that took a long time for me to process through and I'm saying like years, right?
• 5:18
  Like cause I know, like, would it sort of help to go through my diagnosis story?
• 5:26
  Sure.
• 5:26
  I would love to hear that.
• 5:27
  Yeah.
• 5:27
  Cause it's, it's very interesting.
• 5:29
  I remember watching a comedy show and the, the comedian was talking about autism in a very unique way.
• 5:38
  And I remember being with somebody at the time and we were looking at each other and we were looking at the, at the, the TV screen.
• 5:47
  And she looked at me, she's like, I think you're autistic.
• 5:51
  And I was like, God, what are you talking about?
• 5:53
  That doesn't make any sense to me, but okay, whatever.
• 5:55
  And so I took one of those online tests and I was off the charts.
• 6:01
  And I was like, Oh, maybe there is something here.
• 6:04
  And so I went to Autism Speaks and said, Hey I think I might be autistic.
• 6:14
  What can I do?
• 6:15
  And their response was, Well, you're not a child and you don't have a diagnosis.
• 6:19
  We can't help you.
• 6:21
  Oh my gosh.
• 6:22
  That's why I will never be a fan of Autism Speaks.
• 6:25
  Because if that's the way you treat an autistic person, that's going to stick in there and the fact that they were wanting the cure instead of like to help us as adults on the spectrum.
• 6:34
  Anyway, I digress.
• 6:36
  So the unfortunate part though, is once I received that message, my autistic brain took over and I started ruminating.
• 6:43
  Well, where the heck do I go?
• 6:44
  What do I see?
• 6:45
  How do I talk to you?
• 6:46
  Like, cause I have all of these thoughts now about like being autistic and all making sense.
• 6:51
  And there was nothing for me.
• 6:54
  Yeah.
• 6:56
  After a few months of just ruminating and not exactly understanding, I finally kind of went to the VA for some help and was able to get my diagnosed by my diagnosis through the VA, which I hear is really rare.
• 7:14
  And even after my diagnosis, it was still very difficult until I went to my first peer support group.
• 7:23
  I was in Seattle at the time.
• 7:25
  The only one that I could find was 75 miles away.
• 7:30
  And so I drove the 75 miles to meet up in person.
• 7:35
  With five other people who are on the spectrum and it changed my life.
• 7:41
  It was the first time I was ever in a setting where I didn't feel alone, where I didn't feel like I was the only one who thought this way, or I was the only one who has experienced what I was experiencing.
• 7:56
  There's a lot of systemic oppression, a lot of systemic ableism that happens that you don't realize until you You know, you're autistic and you're like, Oh, wait, now I get it.
• 8:07
  And so ever since then, I've been doing support groups because changed my life.
• 8:14
  I want to give that opportunity for others.
• 8:17
  I'd like, like to ask a question about some of those experiences that you said, like that you realize that other people were having a similar experience for one of the first times.
• 8:27
  Can you be a little more specific about some of that?
• 8:29
  Or do you remember?
• 8:31
  Yeah.
• 8:32
  Just the struggle finding jobs, you know, like every time I would get laid off and it wasn't that often because I, you know, I, more often than not, I would quit because like, autistic brain, my supervisor changed.
• 8:45
  So I would quit.
• 8:48
  Now, I know I'm autistic.
• 8:49
  My supervisor changes.
• 8:50
  I can stay, but just having that conversation about, like, I'm not the only one who takes a year and a half to find a job.
• 8:59
  Or I'm not the only one who can't get a job from a job interview, or I can't see.
• 9:06
  So like all the anxiety and all of the self talk and all of the sensory overload stuff, like all of the, the lighting and all of that stuff.
• 9:15
  I thought I was just unique and weird.
• 9:18
  And so when I get with a group of people and collectively, like, no, I struggle with that, too.
• 9:25
  Because, like, I didn't know anything about face blindness.
• 9:28
  I didn't even realize I had it.
• 9:31
  But then once I do that deep dive, I'm like, what's going on here?
• 9:35
  I can finally say, well, yeah, when I'm in sensory overload, sometimes I lose the ability to track who's in the room with And that's Actually a fairly common autistic experience and so just having that group of people that are experiencing those same kind of things was very much an eye opener.
• 9:54
  Yeah, I can see how hugely validating that would be and up until that point you had some inkling that other people didn't experience all of that stuff and you didn't understand why you didn't.
• 10:05
  Yeah.
• 10:06
  Yeah.
• 10:07
  Well, conversely, there are things that I have assumed that other people experience come to find out they don't at all.
• 10:14
  And that sets things apart too.
• 10:16
  So I can see how just understanding how different everyone's experiences are either way.
• 10:24
  Yeah.
• 10:26
  And it's also like Because autism, because autism is a spectrum understanding that no two people on the spectrum are going to be the same.
• 10:34
  That no two people on the spectrum are going to have those same exact experiences.
• 10:38
  There are some sort of universal truths where more often than not it is true, but even then, because it's such a spectrum and such a broad range, it's hard to say one way or the other for everybody because not everybody's going to The same.
• 10:54
  Yeah.
• 10:54
  Yeah.
• 10:55
  That's a good point.
• 10:56
  The, the idea of how different Whether you're autistic or not, the experiences people are having is something that's really struck me too.
• 11:08
  Like you can be out on a lake in a kayak and one person who's really sensitive to being in nature and all of the sounds and the water and the beauty can be having a completely different.
• 11:24
  experience than someone who's just caught up in the conversation and only, you know, sort of peripherally is aware of their surroundings.
• 11:33
  And it's that type of thing too, that, that just strikes me.
• 11:40
  In the, in the support groups and in, in your work.
• 11:43
  And that's just one example of how different people can be experiencing something that it can make bridging or working together, or even having the same conversation and the same understanding of something quite difficult.
• 11:57
  Oh, a hundred percent.
• 11:58
  And I have two different support groups.
• 12:01
  Right and the conversations that I have in 1 support group, I can't have in the other support group.
• 12:08
  And that's because in the other support group, we have people that don't possess the ability to comprehend a lot of the complex conversations that we have in the other 1.
• 12:20
  And so with the 1 support group, it's more like a friendship circle, because, you know, that's the level of engagement that we can actually have as a group.
• 12:30
  Whereas the other 1, we're talking more about philosophy and how to change things and how to do this and how to do that, which I would love to have.
• 12:39
  In the other group, it's just not possible because not everybody can be on that same level.
• 12:47
  And I always cater my conversation to the people in the group who need the who can process information at the same speed.
• 12:57
  And that's the level.
• 12:58
  I sort of keep the conversation.
• 12:59
  And I hope I'm making sense because I'm trying to know that makes something.
• 13:04
  That makes total sense to me.
• 13:06
  And, and of course we have to consider, you know, the level and make sure everyone's comfortable.
• 13:12
  And obviously that's why there's two different groups, which I didn't quite, I didn't quite know about all that.
• 13:17
  So I guess something I still am unaware of, and I remember this be either, maybe I heard this in the group or maybe I read it somewhere, but there is even a I'm going to call it a prejudice, although that might be too strong of a word, between highly functioning autistic people and not so highly functioning autistic people.
• 13:38
  And because we're all so different, it in itself is this huge confusion.
• 13:43
  And I know, Before I knew I was autistic, I worked with horses with a friend's son, who was very autistic.
• 13:52
  And I did not understand, and I was afraid of like, what does this mean?
• 13:57
  What is he going to do?
• 13:58
  Is he going to have a meltdown?
• 13:59
  Is he going to be safe?
• 14:00
  Is he going to be able to listen to instructions and hear them?
• 14:03
  And, you know, it's ironic that all along I actually had so much of what I needed to understand this young boy, but I didn't know that I had it because he was really a lot like me.
• 14:16
  And we tend to be the least judgmental because like, it's, it's my experience when, when you've faced.
• 14:25
  Ableism and you face that prejudice and you face discrimination and you felt what that feels like.
• 14:33
  You really go out of your way to make sure other people don't experience that.
• 14:37
  I really do believe that.
• 14:40
  Now, of course, there are some people on the autism spectrum who are going to be a jerk like, that's going to happen too.
• 14:47
  But the universal truth of my experience is that most people on the spectrum, because of the way we've been treated, we tend to have a lot of empathy towards others, which is something that ironically the stereotypes out there that we don't have empathy, which drives me up the wall because, like.
• 15:04
  Empathy drives everything that I do.
• 15:07
  And so when you tell me that I don't have empathy, I always go like, Hmm, where did you get that information?
• 15:14
  And how can I correct that information?
• 15:18
  Cause there's a lot of stuff about autism that it's not that people don't, I think it's that people don't experience it.
• 15:27
  They don't see it.
• 15:29
  So they don't think about it.
• 15:30
  So they just aren't aware, but then they never want to take that extra step to learn about it.
• 15:38
  And I think.
• 15:40
  That coupled with the fact that more often than not, if you're late diagnosed as autistic, your singular focus is autism.
• 15:48
  And a lot of people get turned off because they say, oh, you talk about it so much.
• 15:53
  Well, I've had 45 years to not talk about it.
• 15:57
  So now that I'm 46, that's going to be the one thing that's on the top of my mind because that's occupying so much of my brain.
• 16:05
  And your whole world just changed.
• 16:07
  Yeah.
• 16:08
  Shifted like Every interaction with everything is now subject to thinking about it completely differently and asking different questions.
• 16:17
  Yes.
• 16:18
  And being proactive for your own mental health and safety.
• 16:22
  Like I wish I could just go to a party and just go to a party and have fun and experience it.
• 16:32
  There are so many things that go into mentally preparing and anxiety and all of that stuff before you even get through the door to a party that a lot of people who are neurotypical never have to face.
• 16:45
  And, and it's, it's so tiring and so exhausting sometimes that when you get to the party, you're already at a deficit.
• 16:53
  Because you spent so much mental bandwidth preparing for this event.
• 16:58
  And then once you're there, it's so exhausting.
• 17:01
  And then once my brain reaches its capacity, and I hear this from people all the time, I just had a conversation with somebody last night, actually, because I left a party early.
• 17:11
  And she's like, Why do you always leave early?
• 17:14
  And I had to tell her, I said, well, that's because I'm autistic.
• 17:16
  And once my sensory inputs reached its capacity and I'm reaching that point of sensory overload, I have to bounce.
• 17:24
  And she was like, I didn't know you were autistic.
• 17:28
  You don't look autistic.
• 17:31
  Well, you don't.
• 17:33
  I hate that.
• 17:34
  Right, because, because we don't look a certain way.
• 17:36
  I know.
• 17:37
  And I hear it all the time.
• 17:39
  That's like the number one thing that I hear that I wish that I knew.
• 17:43
  I could educate people to stop saying is that invalidating.
• 17:49
  You don't look autistic.
• 17:50
  I just wish people would stop saying that you could see the inside of my brain.
• 17:54
  You might recognize something.
• 17:56
  Yeah.
• 17:57
  Yeah.
• 17:57
  Yeah.
• 17:57
  Or you must be high functioning until I'm not.
• 18:02
  Right, right.
• 18:03
  And so that, you know, that's kind of a little bit what we were talking about too, is that recognition of how we're different and what that looks like.
• 18:09
  And I think the empathy is part of, is part of that conversation too, because the misconception for so long with lower functioning autistic people is that they're not emotional.
• 18:23
  And I think they're probably highly emotional so much so that they have to shut down or that they show it differently.
• 18:29
  And I think that's where the myth of, you know, that autistic people don't have empathy comes into it.
• 18:35
  And, you know, I think the way autistic people interact with animals is another piece of that conversation because of the empathy is so high.
• 18:45
  The way we interact with animals can be quite different.
• 18:48
  I don't know if that's universal or not.
• 18:50
  Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.
• 18:52
  I don't know if it's universal or not.
• 18:54
  However, I know what you mean.
• 18:58
  Like, I have developed better relationships with animals than with most people because with animals, I can predict their behavior.
• 19:11
  I know how they're going to react in certain situations, certain things.
• 19:16
  It's pretty predictable, right?
• 19:18
  A horse will predict a certain way.
• 19:20
  Now, horses are a little bit more intelligent.
• 19:22
  They're more independent.
• 19:23
  At the same time, though, you know, it's, it's a horse.
• 19:26
  And I say that because with people, you never know.
• 19:31
  There's so many multiple angles.
• 19:33
  There's so many aspects.
• 19:35
  Like, are they coming from this?
• 19:36
  Are they actually meaning what they're saying?
• 19:38
  Are they lying?
• 19:39
  Are they being nice to me because they want to like me?
• 19:43
  Or are they being nice to me because they want to manipulate me?
• 19:47
  Whereas with an animal, If they're being nice to you, that just simply means they like you, and there's no diving deeper into that animal, as opposed to trying to figure out every aspect of a human, because they're unpredictable you never know what another person is thinking.
• 20:08
  You'll never know.
• 20:10
  Yeah, there's no ulterior motive ever with animals and in a way that allows the empathy to go deeper and the trust to go deeper.
• 20:20
  And what you're talking about you just a little light bulb went off for me as you said that with the horses because Spending so much time with them.
• 20:28
  It's gotten to the point where it's the predictability that I've taken to the, you know, 10th power that, you know, borders a little bit of animal communication.
• 20:38
  If I notice so much of their patterns and, you know, that they'll eat different foods, like every three days or pattern isn't, you know, a regularity in.
• 20:47
  in my mind for a horse isn't every day.
• 20:50
  It's every third day.
• 20:51
  And I don't know where I got that.
• 20:53
  I don't know if I got that from watching them in the wild on 200 acres for years, or, or if it's some sort of micro observation that I'm not even consciously aware of.
• 21:02
  But those things come into it too, is the patterns, the conscious and unconscious recognition of things.
• 21:10
  And I mean, my gosh, there's so many things going through my head every single moment.
• 21:15
  And it never stops.
• 21:17
  Yeah, I take it back.
• 21:19
  I can turn it off.
• 21:20
  I know some people can't.
• 21:21
  I have the ability to just go blank and not think I could shut it off.
• 21:28
  I guess I do too at some at some times.
• 21:30
  And that's maybe that's part of the horse thing too is I'm bringing horses into it because the name horse is in the name of my podcast.
• 21:36
  I figure.
• 21:38
  I need to give it an honorary mention here, but the slow, the slowing things down, you know, and, and utilizing the horses to help, to help that is a way to turn some things off.
• 21:51
  And, and I always recommend to parents with children on the autism spectrum to do equine therapy.
• 22:00
  I always recommend that.
• 22:01
  And there is.
• 22:05
  Something about the way horses interact with people that is more therapeutic than I have ever experienced elsewhere.
• 22:17
  And I don't know if it's because of their level of intelligence or their level of intuitiveness, but one of the things that I have seen play out time and time and time again is Even with the most ornery of horses, if you have somebody with a disability that approaches that horse, they change and they act accordingly.
• 22:38
  It's very strange.
• 22:39
  There's so many videos online and so much evidence of horses treating people with disabilities differently.
• 22:47
  Yeah, I can, I can speak to that a little bit.
• 22:51
  And there's a very exciting new movie about to be released called.
• 22:55
  Oh my gosh, I'm blanking.
• 22:56
  Something hearts rescued hearts and it's going to come out and they've spent a lot of time documenting all the different interactions with horses and people in healing ways.
• 23:07
  And part of it is that they are prey animals, right?
• 23:09
  So a horse can detect our heartbeat and our breath as it could a cougar or another predator from 60 or more feet away.
• 23:18
  It can also read your intention or the intention of a predator.
• 23:22
  You know, did that cougar already have lunch?
• 23:24
  Am I safe to get a drink of water?
• 23:26
  And because they have that ability and because they have the largest limbic system, which is where your emotions and empathy is housed of any land animal, they absolutely read people and read disabilities and adjust accordingly, especially when they realize.
• 23:44
  That those people aren't going to come in with a bunch of dominance and ask something of them.
• 23:49
  Yeah, and you could, I would imagine they can tell just by the way they're touched as well.
• 23:57
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:59
  Absolutely.
• 24:00
  It's good stuff.
• 24:02
  So, I experienced what I think may have been some ableism.
• 24:08
  It may have just been people reacting to my PTSD, which is something that as I work with my therapist, who is also on the spectrum, thank goodness, and she recognized me and started asking some questions and was instrumental in, in the diagnosis that a lot of people On the spectrum, whether you're diagnosed late or early, have a lot of PTSD just from interacting in the world.
• 24:30
  It doesn't even have to be a major traumatic event because we're so sensitive.
• 24:35
  Well, it's not even that we're sensitive.
• 24:37
  It's, it's it's a trauma response, right?
• 24:40
  I don't know about you, but there have been so many situations where I'm like in a group setting where nothing is particularly going on and then you find yourself as the target of the conversation and you don't understand like, wait a minute, how did this shift?
• 24:56
  How did this change?
• 24:58
  And I know so many people that have been attacked, that have been beaten up, that have been sort of bullied just because they're, they're different or they exhibit those signs of autism not being dominant.
• 25:15
  And so when you have a lifetime of people treating you differently, it tends to lead to that PTSD because there's so many traumatic events.
• 25:26
  Like, at this point, for me, every time I do a job interview, it's like, I'm in another car accident, it's a train wreck, and it's so hurts me just to participate in an interview.
• 25:37
  Because every interview is traumatic.
• 25:40
  And over time, that contributes to my PTSD, because, like, I need an interview for jobs, but I have to prepare for that.
• 25:49
  Like, I have to schedule time with my therapist.
• 25:52
  There's all kinds of things that go into that, because I know, going in, It's going to be a traumatic experience.
• 26:00
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  The level of preparation is something that people, I don't think that normal unquote, normal people will ever really get the amount of effort that goes into, you know, it was a real eye opener for me about the time I had the diagnosis.
• 26:18
  I also needed back surgery, which means I met, I needed somebody to take care of me.
• 26:24
  And.
• 26:25
  And that was really hard.
• 26:26
  But there were some micro moments that were so telling, like, like it was summertime, and I couldn't drive, someone else would have to drive.
• 26:34
  And when I get in my car, I, and it's hot, I, excuse me, first roll down the windows, start the car, turn on the air conditioner.
• 26:42
  And then if I need to load anything like the dog, or, you know, things that go in the back, then I do that.
• 26:47
  So the car is a certain temperature when I can take off.
• 26:51
  And because of the back surgery, I would be ushered into the passenger side of somebody's hot car with the windows up while they were loading things.
• 27:02
  And, I mean, it's only an amount of like 90 seconds, and it's not like we're in Arizona where it's 112 degrees.
• 27:07
  It was just like, you know, maybe 95, I mean, a little hotter than that in the car.
• 27:13
  But those 90 seconds were miserable.
• 27:17
  And it was a window into like how, like, oh, everybody doesn't micromanage getting into their car the same way I do.
• 27:24
  Like I thought this was just a result of, you know, intelligence and maturity, but turns out no, I'm, I'm, it's like that.
• 27:32
  Yeah.
• 27:32
  Yeah.
• 27:34
  Yeah, I bought a Subaru Outback and the reason I bring it up is because the reason I bought my car was so that I had remote start so that I can avoid the temperature fluctuation.
• 27:50
  So I have invested an extra 10 grand in my life, just for that reason alone, because I'm so sensitive to temperature changes.
• 27:59
  Right.
• 28:00
  So yeah, I'm not the, I'm not the only one on the spectrum that's like that.
• 28:05
  Like that little micro thing that you were willing to spend so much money on to have it, you know, not be an issue in your life.
• 28:12
  And then you think about preparing for a job interview.
• 28:15
  That's just preparing to get in the car.
• 28:17
  Like an entire job interview, the magnitude of that, like nobody's ever going to understand what we got through going to the emergency room, going to the doctor, like, this is what happened to me.
• 28:29
  I went to my doctor and they wanted me to fill out this form.
• 28:34
  And they always want you to do that.
• 28:35
  And they said, well, don't worry about most of it.
• 28:37
  Just get the last two questions.
• 28:39
  Well, the last two questions were, do you use drugs?
• 28:43
  Illegal drugs, what drugs do you use?
• 28:45
  And I understand that what they were trying to do was to make it comfortable for people that are on meth or whatever to be able to talk about it and understand that they have privilege, right?
• 28:58
  They're not going to get in trouble for telling their doctor everything.
• 29:02
  But this isn't the doctor giving me the form, it's the receptionist.
• 29:06
  And because she focused in on the last two questions, the way that landed with me was she thinks I'm on drugs.
• 29:14
  Oh, and then her comment was, and it's okay if you are.
• 29:17
  And I thought, it's not okay.
• 29:19
  Like I know some people that because of pain management from injuries have become hooked on opioids.
• 29:26
  And, you know, they're homeless people outside the doctor's office up the street.
• 29:30
  And I'm thinking she's saying this is okay.
• 29:33
  You know, that's again, the black and white thinking and being very literal and having some PTSD.
• 29:38
  So between all of those things together, I'm a little like, I'm up and I'm a little irate.
• 29:43
  Like she thinks I'm on drugs.
• 29:45
  She thinks that we don't have a drug problem in this country.
• 29:48
  She thinks that it's not affecting homelessness.
• 29:50
  Like, All of this stuff going through my head and later I got scolded by the doctor for not being polite to the receptionist when all of these things landed on me.
• 30:01
  And I'm thinking, is that, is that an ableist thing?
• 30:04
  Is that an autism thing?
• 30:06
  Is that my PTSD?
• 30:07
  Is that just somebody who works in a doctor's office who seems like they don't have a clue?
• 30:14
  I question how the doctor thinks he has enough privilege to tell you what to say and what to do and how to behave to begin with.
• 30:21
  Like, what kind of doctor is that?
• 30:25
  Like, instead of coming with curiosity, huh.
• 30:29
  Right?
• 30:30
  He comes with judgment, That, and then he scolds you.
• 30:34
  Well, that's, that's a traumatic experience right there.
• 30:36
  Because it's like, Now you're framing every interaction in the future.
• 30:40
  How am I supposed to come in here in a positive manner?
• 30:43
  If I know that you're watching my every behavior, you know, I'm autistic, right?
• 30:49
  So I'm going to have a tone of voice that people may not understand.
• 30:52
  Maybe that's just my tone of voice.
• 30:54
  And I get this all the time, right?
• 30:57
  Because when I'm focusing on my words, it sounds like I'm upset, but I'm not upset.
• 31:03
  This is me focusing on my words.
• 31:05
  So I don't forget anything that I say them in the right order.
• 31:09
  And this is my tone of voice when I have that conversation.
• 31:11
  There's an intensity to that because there's a lot behind the scenes that people don't see that it's so casual.
• 31:18
  And I think that may be part of I think that may be part of it too.
• 31:21
  And it is, I have not been back to the doctor yet, and I'm probably going to need a checkup to get my, my prescription refilled here pretty soon.
• 31:29
  And I likened it to like Tourette's, you know, like if I had Tourette's syndrome, or if I just had PTSD or some other, you know, mental affliction that maybe was more obvious to people.
• 31:42
  They would be required to treat you with kindness and compassion, but because in some ways this is invisible or looks like something else, you know, I mean, the bottom line is compassion and good customer service are never a bad answer.
• 31:59
  Well, let me tell you about Biscuits Cafe.
• 32:02
  Okay.
• 32:03
  Don't go there, folks.
• 32:04
  You know why?
• 32:06
  So, as a person with a disability, I had a service dog.
• 32:11
  And he went with me everywhere.
• 32:12
  He recently passed, so I'm having to deal with that.
• 32:15
  But I go to Biscuit's Cafe.
• 32:17
  Now, the dog is in a stroller.
• 32:19
  And the reason the dog is in a stroller is because he's not a service dog that needs to carry anything.
• 32:24
  He's kind of old.
• 32:25
  But he still needs to be able to look at me and alert for a medical condition.
• 32:30
  So he's vested up, he's contained all that.
• 32:33
  And they tell me that they're not going to allow me into their establishment with a service talk.
• 32:39
  And when I try to correct them and say, well, no, this is the rule and this is the law.
• 32:43
  They said, well, no, that's not true.
• 32:46
  They said that you need this and you need this and you need, okay, that's not true either.
• 32:51
  But then, vocally, so everybody in the restaurant could hear, right?
• 32:56
  So not only do they acknowledge my disability vocally in front of the entire place, and belittle me for trying to bring my service dog in there, they think it's okay to just tell me, Oh, it's okay this time, we're gonna allow you to be in our establishment this time, but we don't want you back again.
• 33:16
  That's horrible, the condescension in that, and the And so, yeah, and then I complain about it, and they complain about the complaints.
• 33:24
  They don't acknowledge it, there's no apology, they don't think they've done anything wrong, even to this day.
• 33:32
  You know, I'm a bit older than you, and I, I can mark how customer service has changed.
• 33:42
  And this isn't just about ableism.
• 33:44
  This is just about treating everybody, you know, like customers are valuable.
• 33:50
  And it, it started with.
• 33:52
  It started with the answering machine and automated calls, and then went into especially cell phone companies and internet companies are notorious for double talking people when you have a customer service complaint, and, and at some point, the customer's not always right.
• 34:11
  That's stopped.
• 34:12
  We're usually wrong.
• 34:13
  In fact, we're wrong until we can prove otherwise.
• 34:16
  And we can't prove otherwise because we're, we're not permitted to go through a logical sequence of conversation that would arrive at the problem and a possible solution.
• 34:26
  Instead, we're blocked on purpose by how customer service representatives are trained.
• 34:33
  Very intentionally, and that's damaging.
• 34:38
  Go ahead.
• 34:38
  You have a comment there.
• 34:40
  I was just going to say that the part that that people don't understand is I'm not a Karen about it, right?
• 34:46
  So when I'm in biscuits cafe, I'm not making a scene.
• 34:49
  I'm not saying anything.
• 34:50
  I'm not yelling.
• 34:51
  I'm not I'm not doing anything other than just saying, hey, why can't I bring my service dog in?
• 34:56
  Do I really need to leave him in a car at 100 degrees outside?
• 35:00
  So, like.
• 35:01
  You're telling me I'm supposed to put my dog in a really hot car to eat at your establishment.
• 35:08
  And I didn't react badly or give a scene, but it didn't matter.
• 35:14
  You're, you're a better man than I probably would have been.
• 35:16
  But I understand what you're saying.
• 35:18
  You had a legal right to have your dog in there.
• 35:20
  And they're going to argue what should be a well known fact.
• 35:24
  I mean, and that's another conversation.
• 35:26
  There's a customer service conversation.
• 35:28
  There's the ableism conversation.
• 35:30
  And then there's the, how do we find.
• 35:32
  Accurate information these days conversation and they are intertwined here.
• 35:36
  Yep.
• 35:36
  The customer service thing too.
• 35:39
  It it's trickled down into our interactions with people.
• 35:44
  Not just, because these young folks that are trained how to respond in these non logical, non sequential, conversational ways that simply block connection and solutions.
• 35:57
  Now we have them communicating with each other casually, doing the same thing in their devices all the time, and it's, it's shifted our entire culture.
• 36:07
  And I notice, More than most people, probably because I'm autistic and see those patterns and the rest of the world to me looks like frogs slowly being boiled in water while our culture crumbles in front of me.
• 36:22
  Yeah, and we don't, and, and it's, and the way they're structured, too, so like, you get a big company like AT& T, for example, and the way it's structured, they have a vested interest in customer service being at some level or, because they want people, I think, to give up.
• 36:46
  And just like, you know what?
• 36:47
  I don't want to, cause if they really cared about customer service, there would be no way we would have to wait on hold for two and a half hours for a customer service representative, but they know that two and a half hours, like nobody's going to wait that long.
• 37:03
  So it'll just take care of itself.
• 37:04
  And we can at least squeeze 30 or 40 out of these people for another month before they finally get around to calling us back.
• 37:11
  And it costs them absolutely nothing to place you on hold.
• 37:14
  There's one particular internet company.
• 37:17
  I don't mind mentioning their name.
• 37:19
  It starts with an H.
• 37:21
  And an N, those are their initials, and they will put you on hold and then they, they will say, let me get a manager.
• 37:31
  And I mean, I measured, I called back enough times and I actually measured the time that they would put you on hold for a manager.
• 37:38
  And then it would hang up automatically.
• 37:42
  And I mean, talk about frustration and culture change and PTSD.
• 37:49
  Like, you know, the music, the music that they play there, there's a couple of really popular ones that when you're on hold now, I noticed when I'm like two and a half minutes into some of that music, my heartbeat, Starts to increase and I start to sweat because I know what's coming.
• 38:04
  I'm going to have to deal with one of these people that are going to refuse to deal with me.
• 38:08
  So the music that's meant to soothe me actually is creating a Pavlovian anxiety response.
• 38:15
  It's just stupid.
• 38:18
  Yeah.
• 38:18
  And I bring AT& T up because, you know, I've been a customer of theirs for over a decade and I actually love them as a company.
• 38:25
  They still suck when it comes to customer service.
• 38:28
  What can we do about that?
• 38:29
  Like, I love that we said in the beginning of the show, like, like wanting to have some positive solutions.
• 38:35
  It seems like, I don't know what the answer is to customer service.
• 38:40
  I really don't.
• 38:41
  You can't turn back the, you can't turn back the wheel.
• 38:45
  I think it has to do with economies of scale.
• 38:48
  So, when you reach mon, mon, monop, monopolistic sizes, huh.
• 38:55
  where you have like four or five companies that are the only ones doing this sort of thing, Mm hmm.
• 39:01
  the customer service goes down.
• 39:03
  Mm hmm.
• 39:03
  Because in economies of scale, the person that's the CEO of the company, all they care about is their shareholders.
• 39:12
  They don't care about us as customers anymore.
• 39:14
  They don't even care about anyone else.
• 39:16
  The reason they care about their shoulders is because they do their shareholders is because they profit.
• 39:21
  There's stock by Pratt.
• 39:22
  There's stock buybacks.
• 39:24
  There's all of these things to keep the wealthiest people wealthy.
• 39:30
  And when we, when we made that shift from like the CEO being in charge of the company and all caring about customers and customer service to customer service is fifth on the list.
• 39:43
  Shareholders is number one on the list.
• 39:47
  I think that's when we shifted away from that customer service piece.
• 39:51
  Yeah.
• 39:52
  I think'cause we, they don't care and we don't have any options.
• 39:57
  Right.
• 39:58
  My only option is at and t or T-Mobile or Verizon.
• 40:02
  They're all horrible.
• 40:04
  They are.
• 40:05
  And that's the only option.
• 40:05
  It's endemic.
• 40:06
  It is endemic in those industries.
• 40:09
  But worse than that, for little small places like a little cafe to keep up, it's infiltrated their customer culture as well.
• 40:21
  And I think that depends.
• 40:23
  It doesn't have to, but it does.
• 40:25
  Yeah, it could.
• 40:27
  But and so, like, case in point, right?
• 40:31
  There's a place here in Kaiser.
• 40:33
  It's called Mommy and Maddie's and it's a little more on the expensive side.
• 40:38
  But they're a mom and pa restaurant.
• 40:41
  And when you go there.
• 40:43
  You're treated differently, right?
• 40:46
  Everybody there is warm.
• 40:47
  They're bubbly.
• 40:48
  The, the servers have been there for years and years.
• 40:52
  It's the same crew.
• 40:53
  It's the same people and they treat everybody really well and they do really well.
• 40:58
  And then just down the street, you have a Sherry's, which is vastly different.
• 41:05
  Well, Sherry's just closed.
• 41:08
  Both me and Maddie's is still busy.
• 41:11
  So I think there is a, I think the, the, the misconception out there is that customer service is not high on the priority list when in reality, if you would just dedicate yourself to customer service and treating your customers with respect, I would argue you are going to get more repeat business and more people are going to be coming to your establishment because.
• 41:34
  If you're feeling welcome and you're feeling that feeling of kindness, it draws you back.
• 41:40
  If that makes sense.
• 41:41
  It absolutely makes sense in its way the world used to be.
• 41:44
  I see it less and less, but there are still pockets and thank goodness for those pockets because they are the example.
• 41:52
  And they, they are the ones that should be celebrated, but they're not.
• 41:57
  You know, it's, it's the places like mommy's and Maddie's that are never going to get the national media attention.
• 42:02
  They're not going to get the spotlight.
• 42:04
  They're not going to get that extra encouragement from the media that is reserved for the Walmarts of the world.
• 42:12
  They don't care about anyone.
• 42:15
  Right.
• 42:16
  Well, at least, at least a few people that listen to the podcast here will know about this.
• 42:20
  Yeah.
• 42:21
  Yeah.
• 42:22
  So.
• 42:25
  What else, Sean?
• 42:27
  What else is really like, you know, on your mind about anything or, or autism?
• 42:34
  Yeah.
• 42:35
  Acceptance.
• 42:38
  I, I wish there would be a way in our society, in this country for people just to be more kind towards each other.
• 42:50
  Mm-Hmm.
• 42:50
  And to be more accepting of each other because I fear that we're approaching a cliff.
• 42:59
  Where families are being torn apart because of political beliefs, where it's not okay for you to have one friend on one side of the political structure and another friend on the other side of the political structure, and all of this tension and all of this us versus them, when in reality, if you take a step back and realize that we're all in this together, and we want a lot of the same things.
• 43:25
  Yeah.
• 43:27
  Like, we want the ability just to live our lives in peace and happiness.
• 43:33
  And I just wish there was a way for us to get back to that.
• 43:37
  And I don't know how that is.
• 43:38
  I mean, obviously starting podcasts and conversations like this at the same time, though, it seems like we're racing uphill and I want to take every opportunity, but it's hard because.
• 43:52
  People are afraid of the unknown and people don't want to change and the change that I'm asking is, is, is simple just to lead with kindness.
• 44:02
  And not a lot of people do.
• 44:05
  It's very strange.
• 44:06
  It's true.
• 44:07
  And we've, we've, we've lost some of that for a number of reasons.
• 44:09
  There, there is, I want to tell you about, I wish I could remember the whole name of it.
• 44:12
  It's something angels.
• 44:15
  And it's an organization in Eugene that a friend of mine works for.
• 44:18
  It's a non profit and they're working to bridge the political gap and to get people to have conversations, and they have a lot of events that teach people how to listen and talk to each other.
• 44:33
  And maintain the continuity and connection, even if they have very different political beliefs, which is, it's so important because that is not all of our lives.
• 44:43
  That is not our day to day existence and the polarization.
• 44:47
  I would like to see the polarization stop.
• 44:49
  I mean, it's perfectly okay to have a different opinion.
• 44:53
  But there are very few people that can actually talk about having different political opinions.
• 44:57
  I'm very grateful for the few people in my life that I differ greatly with, that we still listen and talk to each other about it.
• 45:04
  And, and from them, I learned things.
• 45:07
  And from them, from myself, I hope they learn, you know, things too, because we hear different things.
• 45:13
  Yeah.
• 45:15
  And, and at some point, I would like us to be able to think for ourselves.
• 45:23
  And not just listen to what's being spoon fed to us from the media and because the media now is owned by those monopolistic entities.
• 45:36
  And so mainstream media, you have a narrative, right?
• 45:39
  Like, I sit there now and I read the news.
• 45:42
  It's not news.
• 45:43
  It's an opinion piece.
• 45:45
  Like, tell me what happened in Congress.
• 45:48
  Don't tell me why it's a good thing, why.
• 45:50
  Let me decide what's good and what's bad.
• 45:54
  Let me decide how I want to interpret things.
• 45:56
  Just tell me what happened as news and let me develop my own opinions instead of you telling me what happened and then how I'm supposed to feel about it.
• 46:07
  Exactly.
• 46:08
  And you know, I can remember the news in the seventies.
• 46:12
  In the 1970s, I was old enough to comprehend what was going on in the news.
• 46:17
  And if there was an editorial piece, it was like a huge sign came up, editorial, or now we have an editorial, bye.
• 46:26
  And other than that, the news was fine.
• 46:28
  As factual as it could possibly be.
• 46:32
  And the news on the three major networks was all so similar.
• 46:37
  And it, people, young people, you know, people that are, were born in the nineties and two thousands and 2010s, they have no reference point for what that was, I feel really bad for them because it is, it's, we're now entering a place, especially with AI, where we don't really have a truth.
• 47:03
  We no longer have a collective truth and we're not going to have any truth and facts are not facts, or maybe they're facts, you're just never going to know.
• 47:12
  So I try to take that to a higher level.
• 47:14
  Like, okay, what is the silver lining in that?
• 47:16
  The silver lining in that, in my perspective, is that we can develop our intuition and a type of knowing that has nothing to do with our brains.
• 47:26
  Right.
• 47:28
  And, and the piece that I've started doing, too, is when I see a news article, I see the author, and I'll Google the author.
• 47:36
  And the trend that I am starting to see is that you'll see a news piece in Newsweek.
• 47:42
  And then you Google the author.
• 47:43
  Well, no wonder they're taking this pro vaccination stance, because they work for pharma.
• 47:51
  And they don't disclose that the person writing the article benefits financially from promoting the article in that fact.
• 48:00
  And that happens all the time, where like you see this article, like all these people that are against sub minimum wage, for example, right?
• 48:08
  There are groups out there who believe people with disabilities should still earn less than minimum wage.
• 48:15
  It's doesn't happen in Oregon.
• 48:16
  That's what I love about living here.
• 48:18
  But in some states, you can pay half, right?
• 48:21
  So everybody else in the world is making 7 an hour.
• 48:24
  If you have a disability, you're only making half of that.
• 48:28
  And the people that are arguing against that are vocal and you think they're independent, but then you look up and oh no, they work for the Chamber of Commerce.
• 48:37
  Oh no, they work for this business organization.
• 48:40
  So of course they don't want to pay more.
• 48:44
  They want that cheap labor and taking and exploiting people with disabilities.
• 48:49
  Because nobody who is just a general citizen would argue that people with disabilities should be making half.
• 48:57
  of what everyone else is making.
• 49:00
  Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
• 49:01
  Or, I mean, I can see where there are people with disabilities so severe that, and I know of at least one program in Douglas County where there's a subsidy.
• 49:12
  There's like an organization that will pay a subsidy if an employer can hire someone like that because it does take more time to train and maybe their productivity isn't as high, but there's this, you know, incredible opportunity For them to be out there, you know, working and having that experience and contributing.
• 49:31
  But that's not what you're talking about.
• 49:33
  No.
• 49:34
  So what happened?
• 49:35
  So that would be amazing, right?
• 49:37
  As long as the person with a disability is earning a fair wage, what happens in some states though, is literally like you're in a team, right?
• 49:46
  So you hire somebody from voc rehab who has a disability.
• 49:49
  They're only making 3 and 50 cents an hour.
• 49:53
  While the person who is sitting right next to them, who doesn't have a disability is making 7 an hour.
• 49:59
  Wow.
• 50:00
  Wow.
• 50:00
  And so they're being treated half as a human.
• 50:05
  And what is that?
• 50:05
  Are you saying that they're able to, to like, they have a disability, but they're able to function fairly equally?
• 50:14
  Yes, workplace is what you're saying.
• 50:16
  Yes, right.
• 50:17
  So like if let's say if we have somebody in a wheelchair, right?
• 50:20
  Oh, yeah, and they can do the same exact office work as everybody else.
• 50:24
  It just happened to be in a wheelchair.
• 50:26
  However, through some of these programs in some states, if you want to get employed, you have to start with this and you get paid half.
• 50:34
  That's wrong.
• 50:36
  It's absolutely wrong.
• 50:38
  And there are people and organizations and even congressmen, even to this day that are advocating for keeping that sub minimum wage for people with disabilities.
• 50:50
  And it's like, how I can't help but think, like, how to internalize that.
• 50:55
  Right?
• 50:55
  Because if you were to tell me that I'm coming to you for voc rehab, because I need help finding work, and I'm getting used to being paid, 50 grand a year, for example, right?
• 51:06
  And then the only jobs available through Voc Rehab are sub minimum wage jobs.
• 51:12
  So if you want that pathway, now you have to go from income bracket from 50 down to 3 an hour just to get your foot back in the door, and you never recover from that.
• 51:23
  Right, and how do we expect people to come off of disability?
• 51:28
  You don't know if they want them to.
• 51:31
  Right.
• 51:31
  So, I mean, in, in my mind, disability, like it's so hard to get, but I know several people that are being denied disability, their disability is a temporary thing and they want very badly to heal from the disability.
• 51:44
  Like I, example, I have one friend who has bad hardware in her elbow from an injury and they can't seem to get it, get it fixed.
• 51:51
  And she can't work until it gets fixed.
• 51:53
  And there's some other problems, but the, the point is there's a lot of people on disability that would like to heal.
• 52:00
  But they're incentive, incentivized not to heal.
• 52:05
  And once you're on disability, there's not a transition period.
• 52:08
  And it seems somehow tied into this lower wages for handicapped people.
• 52:13
  I'm not in every case, but at least in some cases, again, you know, in an optimal society, we want people to be healthy and to be healed and to be productive, and yet we're not setting it up.
• 52:28
  So that they're incentivized to in, in, I'm saying the word wrong incentivize.
• 52:34
  Yeah, to do that.
• 52:36
  Thank you.
• 52:37
  And on the flip side too, if you get a disability, they make you become impoverished.
• 52:46
  Right?
• 52:47
  Like if you have anything of value, you have to get rid of it.
• 52:50
  If you have anything like in your savings account, anything you have built up, you have to get rid of all of that and spend that all down and become bankrupt before you qualify for disability.
• 53:04
  That's the part that just drives me nuts.
• 53:06
  And then also, once you have that disability status, getting off of that.
• 53:12
  So if you get a job or whatever, you can't.
• 53:15
  Sustain anything because you can't know there are certain accounts in like Oregon, for example, where you can Contribute money to a savings account, specifically designed to provide support for your disability.
• 53:30
  However, there aren't pathways for you to sort of without severe cost to the person to get out of poverty.
• 53:39
  If you have a disability.
• 53:41
  And I also know so many people that have had to get a divorce because their partner became or had a disability.
• 53:52
  Because if you're single, you're, you're counted as one individual.
• 53:58
  If you're married, your joints, collateral, all that stuff has to be depleted.
• 54:02
  And so time and time again, I know of people who have gotten divorced and gave their spouse everything just so they wouldn't lose everything because they have a disability, because that's the way the rules are structured.
• 54:15
  That's just wrong.
• 54:16
  It seems like it would be so easy rather to give Partners of disabled people, tax incentives to take care of them and.
• 54:26
  and be able to, you know, to rework that in some other ways, you know, to be able to have, I mean, we want to be able to reward people who are getting on their feet again and making money, not punish them for it.
• 54:40
  I mean, what you're described, what you were describing about getting rid of all your things was reminding me of like taking a vow of like becoming a monk or something where you.
• 54:48
  Yeah.
• 54:49
  Give everything away and take a vow of poverty and just, you know, succumb to holding out a bowl and being grateful for whatever or whomever puts in your bowl, whether it's, you know, a couple of teaspoons of rice or, you know, a government disability check is just anyway.
• 55:05
  This is kind of where I go to, like, I'm not saying that Autistic people are smarter than regular people, but some of us have abilities to see into situations and things.
• 55:20
  And because we think so much, and because we have these webs where we don't forget things that we've learned, there's a way to, to put things together.
• 55:29
  And there's all of these creative ideas.
• 55:31
  I mean, everybody has creative ideas.
• 55:33
  I'm not singling autistic people out, but I feel like they're not recognized and utilized.
• 55:41
  Like they're superpowers in a way.
• 55:44
  So, like prime example, right?
• 55:46
  I'm not good enough.
• 55:48
  We're at the agency that I work for for a certain type of position, right?
• 55:53
  They're not going to give me that position.
• 55:55
  That's just never going to be in the cards for whatever reasons.
• 55:57
  And I'm not going to get into here.
• 55:58
  However, if you take a step back and look at the work that I've done, just on the periphery, I'm doing that job.
• 56:05
  Anyway, I'm just not getting paid for it.
• 56:09
  Right?
• 56:10
  And so that's the frustrating piece, right?
• 56:13
  They leverage my talents to bring sensory rooms to every child welfare office in the state of Oregon.
• 56:19
  Right?
• 56:20
  I did that.
• 56:21
  I'm on a pilot project to bring assistive devices to every storefront in the office to help people who are hard of hearing.
• 56:28
  I do that just in my spare time.
• 56:30
  I have all of these ideas and things that I can help with the agencies and I can help this and I can help that, but I don't think I will ever have the opportunity to just do that as my job because I don't meet certain specific criteria and I'm autistic, so I probably will never cross over and get that position and that part is always going to be frustrating.
• 56:52
  And if you weren't in a government job, but rather an independent contractor offering services like this that were highly valued by multiple businesses, you'd be making bank.
• 57:06
  No.
• 57:07
  No, here's why.
• 57:08
  So I've been in situations before, right?
• 57:11
  So I was working for a company.
• 57:13
  And I was doing some amazing things until the, the boss, the supervisor, the owner of the company in a company meeting called me out and said that if, if half of the people in this company worked half as hard as Sean, imagine how amazing this company would be.
• 57:32
  Then I have a target on my back.
• 57:35
  And the managers that never heard that praise from the CEO.
• 57:39
  Right, right, right, right.
• 57:40
  And after that, I could do nothing right because I was outshining other people.
• 57:47
  And so in situations when the private sector where if you want to shine and you want to do your best, you get punished for it.
• 57:55
  At least in the state, and at least with the government, those ideas are somewhat allowed, and I'm able to sort of do that kind of work without too much fear.
• 58:05
  People like, are you trying to steal my job?
• 58:07
  I heard that all the time.
• 58:09
  Like, no, I don't want your job.
• 58:10
  There are things, you know, this is, there's a A podcast I really like called My Autistic Brain by The Autistic Woman.
• 58:17
  You probably are familiar with it.
• 58:19
  And in one of her episodes, she talks about how autistic people are frequently targeted or normal people think that they're doing something manipulative when they're really being altruistic and transparent and kind.
• 58:35
  But because they're not, Other people behave that way when they want something or when they're planning something or doing some something manipulative.
• 58:45
  That's the assumption in our culture.
• 58:50
  And yeah, I think everybody's been whacked down a few times by that.
• 58:53
  And it's just, that's a hard one to see coming when you're, when you're pretty pure of heart.
• 59:00
  And I knew it was coming the minute that happened.
• 59:04
  I knew it was coming.
• 59:05
  I was like, ah, this, this is the worst day ever.
• 59:08
  That's so and also it's impacted my forever.
• 59:12
  Right?
• 59:13
  So I only give 60 percent and my 60 percent is usually like.
• 59:18
  110 or 120 percent for some other folks.
• 59:21
  Yeah.
• 59:22
  Economy of effort that, I mean, there's a reasonable place there where you got to hold on to some of yourself.
• 59:30
  Yep.
• 59:31
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 59:32
  Wow.
• 59:33
  Well, this, this interview has been amazing.
• 59:36
  I love all of the subjects that we have covered and I would, I would like to do it again, cause I could just yak with you for a long time and I bet, I bet a lot of people will be interested in the things that we've talked about.
• 59:49
  And yeah and I really appreciate having me on there cause like in, in my podcast, I don't get a lot to talk about autism, like cause it's not about me.
• 59:59
  Like my podcast is about the person sitting in front of me and so every chance I get to sort of have a conversation like this, where I can actually expand and actually, you know, Debate and talk has been is awesome.
• 1:00:12
  So thank you for the opportunity.
• 1:00:14
  I'm so I'm curious though.
• 1:00:15
  We have a few more minutes Tell me about more about your podcast.
• 1:00:18
  Who who do you interview and my goodness?
• 1:00:21
  I've had so many amazing ones so far.
• 1:00:23
  Like I've had a monk from Bhutan and we talked about peace and acceptance and what that might look like for all religions And all measures of faith.
• 1:00:33
  On Monday, I'm talking to a woman named Pam Smith, who's a behavioral interventionist for children on the spectrum.
• 1:00:40
  And we're going to have a conversation about behaviors and all of those things from a clinical aspect.
• 1:00:46
  But then I've also interviewed like a standup comedy, a comedian about how she got in the standup comedy.
• 1:00:51
  And I talked to a lady who is The, a couple of wonderful, amazing women that own a place called, I've got rocks in my head in Silverton.
• 1:01:02
  And it's a combination of gem stop, a gem shop, a fossil shop, and an organic meat market.
• 1:01:10
  Wow.
• 1:01:11
  Wow.
• 1:01:11
  I want to go there.
• 1:01:12
  Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  You need to.
• 1:01:13
  You need to.
• 1:01:15
  Yeah, it is such an awesome site.
• 1:01:17
  And so like and, and then like coming up, I'm talking to a transgender person.
• 1:01:24
  Who is a firearms instructor, and we're going to have a conversation about just because you're 1 side of the political spectrum or another doesn't mean you don't like guns or don't need guns or don't think safe, solitary gun ownership is a bad thing.
• 1:01:40
  And so I get to talk to so many cool people about their lives.
• 1:01:45
  And the key is kindness.
• 1:01:47
  If you're treating people with kindness, and you're showing positivity, I'm going to interview you on my podcast.
• 1:01:53
  That's the key to getting it.
• 1:01:55
  I'm looking forward to hearing some of those that that's awesome.
• 1:01:58
  Sean.
• 1:01:59
  Yeah.
• 1:01:59
  Yeah.
• 1:02:00
  Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  I'm glad to hear your passion about that too.
• 1:02:04
  All right.
• 1:02:04
  Well, I think it's time to say goodbye and I hope to talk to you soon.
• 1:02:09
  Thanks again for being on the horse human connection podcast.
• 1:02:13
  Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:02:15
  Okay.