Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 351: Confessions of a Hollywood Studio Test Screener with Terrence Martin

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BPS 351: Confessions of a Hollywood Studio Test Screener with Terrence Martin · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three fifty one. To make a real independent film where the
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filmmaker is in charge creatively, one must sacrifice personal, financial, and physical
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wellbeing. Mark Polish broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
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really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
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screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to
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another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike
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other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focus is on the kind of
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project you are and the goals of the project you are, So we actually
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So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers,
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head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys, I know many
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of you have heard about test screenings and what studios do by putting out their
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movies and watching a watching a test audience, having asking them questions, what
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they think and what goes on. But I've never really understood or gotten an
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inside look at what actually is happening in those test screenings, how they're set
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up, what the stories are behind it, and so much more So,
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today we have filmmaker Terrence Martin who begun his career as a studio test screener,
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and his insights on the process is pretty invaluable to any independent filmmaker out
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there. So we talk about his journey, some amazing stories with some big
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celebrities and big studios, and what happened before the screening and after the screening
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and We also talk about his new film get Away If You Can, which
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stars Ed Harris, and we also talk about how he was able to get
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Ed Harris for an independent film while he's being one of the biggest stars on
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Westworld and just being a legend in general. So it's a fascinating conversation on
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how you're able to get a big, big star to work on your independent
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film. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Terrence
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Martin like to welcome to the show, Terrence Martin. Man, how you
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doing, Terrence great man, Thanks for having me. We thank love the
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show. Oh, thank you so much. Man. Yeah, you've been
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telling me that you were you were a fan and you've been listening to it,
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and it was kind of like a lifeline of like what's going on in
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the business while you were going through your opus of making a movie, an
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independent film for seven years and all that stuff, which we're going to get
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into your to your new movie. But I'm glad, I'm glad we could
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be a voice of reason and scare the hell out of you as well along
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the way. Definitely hearing some of the other similar horror spurys and when you
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make something new, and you have your head down for seven years. When
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you come out, the industry is completely different. So hearing from your guests
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helped us avoid a lot of troubles as we sold our film. Awesome Awesome,
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of course, of course that's why we're here to doing that. Man.
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So how did you get first of why did you want to get into
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this insanity? And how did you get into this insanity that business? Yeah,
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man, I got a bit by the creative bug really early. I
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grew up in like blue collar town in Connecticut. This was not like the
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Who's the Boss Connecticut. It was a pretty tough, tough town. And
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I got into something they deemed the gifted program, right where they ship you
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off to another school with a few few people, which was like the worst
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thing you could call something at that time because all the other kids like resented
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you. But when I got to this special program, every week, the
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teacher said, hey, what would you like to do? And I said,
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well, I love storytelling, I love reading, I love movies,
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and she's like, go in that room and just write. And I was.
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I must have been in third grade and I just started writing Wow.
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And I would come back and the teacher would say, now read it to
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me in the class and she would always say, yeah, your stories are
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okay, but my peers, my friends would start asking me for these stories.
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So since third grade, I had a really great relationship with writing.
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And my cousin was in film school. She was much older than me,
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and she would then take her sixteen millimeter camera and we would make these fun
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little horror movies on the beach, because you know, I was the VHS
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generation, so I would skip school and come home with like a pile of
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movies, and you know, I was really into horror films at the time.
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So it just was writing and filmmaking were pleasures for me at a young
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age and it kind of stuck through through through college. I wanted to come
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straight out to LA at eighteen, but you know, parents are like,
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you're going to get your degree, you know. So I went to a
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liberal arts school and I was pretty miserable unless I was studying writing filmmaking,
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and they allowed me to finish here at UCLA campus. They were just starting
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this thing called the New York Film Academy in LA and they let me do
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like basically half a semester's credits to take this program, and it was right
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on the UCLA campus. And right after they went to Universal Studios and they
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needed people to help with the summer program, and I got a job with
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them, which was basically just running all around the lot making short films with
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these like crazy high schoolers. So we would like be at the Psycho House
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one day making a film with one and one of my early students was Max
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Spielberg, so it was just like crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah,
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yeah, he didn't really love. I had to love like Steven for our
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filmmaking. But it was so crazy to be like teaching Spielberg's son, you
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know, not really teaching, just being a liaison for his short films.
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But it was a really cool. Yeah, it was fun, man,
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and it really taught me that I had a lot of work to do because
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most of my other teaching assistants were straight out of UCLA grad school. So
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here I am like, hey, i'll help you get your filmmate, I'll
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read your scripts, and they were like, who are you man? You
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just came out of the New York Film Academy program. So I realized straight
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off, like this is going to be very competitive, and I bet it
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work hard, you know, so I just really started focusing on writing scripts
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and reading everything I could. I had already taken to Joseph Campbell and The
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Hero's Journey, that was probably my favorite ARC book about how the writing process
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should be. But then I just read everything, you know, put my
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nose to the grind soon and I wrote ten or fifteen scripts and was lucky
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enough to have a manager take one out on the town. It didn't sell,
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but it was the exact story of the Revenant, but told through the
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kids, the kids perspective, who was Jim Bridgard. But it was that
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same trapping mission, which is like a femous mission. I remember going into
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to meetings and just because they passed, I thought, well, if they're
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meeting, I still have a chance to get this made, you know,
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instead of just like cultivating a relationship, I would be trying to press,
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you know, this Mountain Man script. And I was meeting with this executive.
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She's like, yeah, you know, you're really good with story,
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You're you're cool with characters, but we're working on Scooby Doo too, And
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I say, can we call it Scooby Don't make eyes? Rest this American
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epic? And her face was like record scratch, and I thought, okay,
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like I'm doing this all wrong. What can we call it? Scoopy?
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I was making a silly joke, you know, but it was like,
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okay, cool, Like, thanks for coming in from the meeting,
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Terrence, We'll be in touch. So lesson for everyone listening. Don't do
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what Terrance said. But I also realized, like, I don't know that
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I want to be auditioning as a writer for Scooby Doo, Like I love
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the show as a kid, but I want to do my own stuff.
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And that's that's when I started writing The Donner Party, you know, which
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which ultimately got me. So during this time, there was like a little
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little side hustles you had to do in La to make a living. You've
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had some very interesting ones. Can you talk about your time as a test
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screener? Because test screenings we all hear these legendary test screenings like the Airplane
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One, which was notoriously bad because nobody wanted to admit that they liked it
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or totally you know, all these kind of movies that, like the ending
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of Fatal Attraction was changed because of the test screening. So what tell us
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your adventures in the test greening pace and what actually goes on behind the curtain,
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because I truly never been I've been in a test screening once or twice
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in my life, but I truly don't know how the studios work within it
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and what the process is, And tell me what you know. Sure well,
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I had gone from the New York Film Academy and I knew that the
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summer program was ending, so I kind of just was walking around a lot
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and I got a PA job on Holes, which has turned out to be
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kind of a hero to that generation, or a Shia the Buff's first movie.
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But man, they'd worked me. I was a PA in the art
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department from start to finish, And I came out of that thinking like,
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what kind of job can I do where I make my own hours and I
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write. And I don't know, if you're ever living in LA you see
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these guys like giving out free movie passes all the time and the point is
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to rate the film. And I thought like, there can't be an easier
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sales job than get a person to see a movie. And it did turn
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out to be a lot harder than I thought, but it was still pretty
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easy and it was really good money. Like if you put in the hours,
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You could work whenever you want. You could go to a cinema twelve
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at night and get people if that's what you felt like doing. And I
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liked the freedom of it, and they started to ship me off to other
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cities. So what would happen is you would get like a demographic. You
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would say, hey, I remember the Ring was an early one. The
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first ring, I went to San Diego, and they wanted high school age
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girls and boys. So we would go to high schools and we would talk
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to teachers and try to get like their perfect audience, and then they would
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all fill out a questionnaire and the filmmakers get a score. Basically, the
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main score is like how many people rated it very good or excellent. We'll
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be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
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show. That's like the number one score because they can really say, oh
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wow, we have a movie that super plays. And then the other score
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is like how many people recommend it? Because sometimes they'll like it, but
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they won't recommend, which can impact the box office. So I just went
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on this run for like four years of just a different city every Friday.
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Because basically, if you're filling screenings. They need you, like they need
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people who are getting numbers, just like any sales job. And we were
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killing it. So I had this partner and we man we did the highest
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scoring movie just so people get an idea of like what studios really want.
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Was Hitch with Will Smith, Like I had never seen a movie score that
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high. I think it was like ninety nine or near one hundred in both
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boxes. And Will Smith was out that screening. And you just gave these
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scores to Will and the direct and their faces because they know how key these
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scores are to the studio hits. Their faces just lit up like they won
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the Super Bowl. They were like yeah, like you can't get better than
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that. Like, and the movie was a massive hit because it's such a
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such a crowd pleaser, you know. And I realized in these screenings,
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when you make something just that pleases the crowd, it's a really special thing
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because the drama is even when they're good, like Colling Brothers stuff, I
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don't know that they test so great because people need time to reflect. You
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can't just put a paper in someone's space. Twelve Monkeys was one that didn't
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test well at all, but still had good particular acclaim and it has now
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become a hit, but people didn't know what to make of it from the
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first moment. So it's not conducive to like saying, yeah, I love
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this, because you're just like, WHOA, what the hell was that?
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I'm sure like two thousand and one, you know, wouldn't test well either,
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even though it's a complete classic, because these movies need more reflection.
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And probably the coolest thing I've ever seen in the test screening was I was
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working on You Glorious Bastards here in La at the I forget what theater it
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was, but nobody had seen the film, and Quinton, being who he
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was, and Harvey would generally bully when I worked for Harvey would generally bully
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filmmakers. He would use the scores to get to cut the movie. He
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did, so Quenton just took all the cards when they were done, through
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them in the trash right in front of Harvey and said, I'm just going
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to talk to the audience about my film. And it was so great and
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so refreshing to see a filmmaker just so proud of his work. He didn't
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even want to see the scores. I mean, I would never recommend this
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to it a young filmmaker that has an opportunity unless your name is yeah.
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But it was cool. Finally, a guy in the audience like had the
12:33
current to say, hey, like, I don't know why you would use
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a David Bowie song in a period movie, and he goes because I'm the
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director and I love it there like and they were like, okay, cool,
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okay, cool. Yeah, that was nice. But that's pretty fascinating.
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Now. I've heard those stories of Harvey during his heyday that he would
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bully filmmaker. I know Studio fifty four was a really big one. He
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just literally just took that away from the filmmaker and cut it up and made
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it into something that it really did. It wasn't good. Later years later
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the director got a chance to do a director's cut, but yeah, And
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I'm imagining other studios and studio executives would use the test screening result the kind
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of bully or push around directors to get what they want right. Yeah,
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And to be fair, sometimes the film is just not working and right see
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it. And they thought they had a crowd pleaser. They thought they had
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a genre film that scared people, and it wouldn't work, so the directors
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would come in and recut it. I al started working for jud Apatol a
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lot of I did the first test screening of Forty year Old Virgin. It
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was it was awesome because we were in a thousand oaks and the film broke
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and there was only like ten minutes left, like everything had been resolved,
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and everybody just stayed glued to their seats. And I remember I was sitting
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near Seth Rogan. I said, man, like, you are going to
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be massive after this movie. You could just feel it the energy. But
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Judd was really good because he's a comedy guy, so he could read the
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audience and he could do a second test screening with a couple the key jokes
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and just tweak them in the editing room or reshoot something, and then the
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crowd would explode. So for comedy, I think test screening is like so
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essential, even even on that level. But did you also see multiple test
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screenings on the same film, So like you would see the original a test
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bad, they go back, shoot, re edit, come back and get
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it. Like, did you go through that process too? Yeah? For
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Knocked Up, it didn't test bad. His film's never tested bad. But
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the ending was a boy I think in the original in it it was like
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a dick joke. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but
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I don't think jud would mind. He's such a cool guy. And it
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was like you had so much of that the whole whole movie that when he
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changed it to a girl and he had the ability to read the screening and
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make that adjustment, and it just made you leave with this kind of like
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warm feeling, not just a joke. I thought that was pretty brilliant that
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he made that adjustment. And I saw that a lot with filmmakers that were
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open to the test screening and those where the filmmakers and studios really wanted to
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work with because they they knew that their their their film could be changed.
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And when when a director was new and they were too married to it,
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I found like wow, like a lot of guys never worked again after bad
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test screatings because they were they were inflexible with their with their film. You
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said you also worked on The Departed, right, Yeah, with with with
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a young and up and coming director at the time, Martin Marty Marty something
15:26
like that. So Scorskezy, what was it so I'd love to because he
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is legendary for being man on a tour, like, truly, you're not
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touching a frame of my movie. So what was the test screening of like
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a legend like that was? And was he in the room? Did you?
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Oh? Yeah, that was exciting man, because of course I'm a
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huge like the Fellas is for me, like one of the tops, like
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I mean, he just he just hits on runs like that's what he does.
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So I was so excited. And we were in Chicago at this cool
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art house theater, but he had been so like nervous about that he told
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the projectionists not to start the film until he gave the okay, but nobody
16:06
could find him, and it was my job to find him. So I'm
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running around the theater looking through seats. All the lights are already down,
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like the movie is ready to go. And then finally I find him and
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I get on the wire and I'm like, hey, I'm here with Martin,
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and the projection goes, okay, cool, we can roll now.
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So he had already talked to his technicians and make sure like on his command
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only to go, and the movie was almost exactly what came on the final
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screen there was there was a few key scenes where Jack Nicholson was really improvising
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that I noticed were a bit shorter, and I thought that was a really
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smart move on his part because you could kind of feel like, oh,
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this is great acting, but the story wasn't moving at the same pace that
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it was. And it was really interesting for me that he even he who
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was you know, such a Martin. Yeah, and his famous editor Elma
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was there, so that was awesome. Man. That was also so Jack
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because I know in that movie Jack Nicholson, he would kind of you know,
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I think you do a take or two or how many takes of the
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script, and then Marty would go go nuts and see what you have,
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and a lot of that did. The improvised stuff did fall into the in
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the movie, and it's such gold because it's Jack Nicholson riff. But if
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you saw that first cut before, like it was like that like in a
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few Moneys with a couple of minutes extra, which I love, but I
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realized, like, I mean, he won the Oscars for that, so
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he could feel you know, it's so interesting when when you're in the movie
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house you can just kind of feel the energy dropping you know, which is
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funny that I made such an art film get away if you can, because
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this movie would never test well like the movie you don't make. But I
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just needed maybe all that testing. I needed to express myself in an artistic
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kind of way. You know, how and how what lessons did you learn
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from that test screening experience as a filmmaker yourself? I think when I'm writing
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in my hope started to make a bigger budget movie to really think of the
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audience, you know, like, really think of how you're making people feel
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if you're trying to scare them, really get that right? Is it like
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you're you're writing for the audience in a way. You know, film is
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a business, and these big budget movies need an audience. And it really
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taught me that the audience is unforgiving. Even with a free movie. They
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would leave often, you know, they would say, hey, this movie
18:21
is not for me. And sometimes you'd be dealing with like a half a
18:23
theater and you would realize, like, these guys have spent millions and millions
18:26
of dollars, these are not small movies, had made a complete flop,
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and you know, if you're not thinking of the audience, there are certain
18:33
budget levels you can get away with art, right, but when you're doing
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these big films, man, you need to deliver. And what was the
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worst screening of a big movie that you ever were on? Come on,
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you could say, I mean, look, you're that test screening anymore?
18:51
It was it was a DC comment that never got another one made. But
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I like the filmmaker a lot, but it was like a true disaster and
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it was his first feature and he didn't want to make any of the notes
19:03
with the studio and he never got to do it, like they took a
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huge risk in hiring him. And did that movie get released? That movie,
19:11
yeah, I got released. That got released. I'll just say it
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was a DC comic hero not in the main months. But but it was
19:17
quite sad because they put a lot in. There was some innovative stuff with
19:21
the sounds and the music, but it just didn't deliver. And some of
19:25
the effects semes were laughable, so the whole audience would laugh, and not
19:29
a good way. And instead of cutting that, which they should have done,
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they left it in. And it's just it really took people out because
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you know, if you don't deliver great CGI with these big h Timple movies.
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That's where people are judging the visuals right, So it would have been
19:44
so much smarter just to cut it out. But you know, it was
19:47
just it was quite sad because he was about my age, and I just
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saw him just bodding heads and I was like, this is not going to
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end well for this guy. You know, we'll be right back after a
19:57
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I mean,
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if you're a Ridley Scott or Martin Scorsese, you can get away with that
20:08
because you've already had decades of creating behind you. But when you're first up,
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man you and you get a shot like that, you gotta play You
20:18
got to play ball. It's a balancing act where you need to protect your
20:22
you know, your artistic you know, artistic integrity. But at the end
20:26
of the day, people are spending god God, just hundreds of like fifty
20:33
million, one hundred million dollars. You kind of helped it. This was
20:37
over us, and he had the audience telling him too, like we do
20:40
like overwhelmingly this scene is laughable. Cut it, take it away. But
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it's just, you know, sometimes the filmmaker stubborn thiss like you like it
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and you don't care that the whole world and maybe your career is never going
20:52
to get another shot like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, no,
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no, no, no, I feel bad. I feel what did he
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what did you do it? On his battle hat? It wasn't at all
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like taking notes. It was just like I am battling and that's that.
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And you know, never got a chance to make a big studio movie again.
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And I mean that's why I feel so bad for the guys who did
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Backgirl. I mean, that's that's unheard of. I like, even bad
21:17
movies get dropped into streaming. Why would they? I don't have to shell
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of one hundred million dollars? And Michael Keaton was back for God's sake,
21:26
Batman, Like, what is going on? Even if it doesn't play like,
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you have so many fans that are gonna check it out and comment on
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them and talk about it. The released cat Woman, I mean, is
21:37
it worse than cats? Like? How much worse can it be? The
21:41
cat or cats? Let's just put cats out? How much worse it going
21:45
to be the cats? For God's sake? Yeah, And you have like
21:49
a thirsty film audience for it too. So even if it's bad. It's
21:53
like you're gonna have people watching it, and that's the main thing with streaming
21:56
is you want eyeballs in time. So that would surprise me. I think
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if they really actually, if they decided right now they just say, hey,
22:03
you know what, we're putting it on HBO backs. Do you know
22:04
how many people would just watch it just that weekend on Twitter would just be
22:11
talking about this movie. It would it would trends, as the kids say,
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it would be trending. Uh so is there is Do you have an
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insane story like it? Just like I can't believe this happened in one of
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these screenings? Well yeah, I mean the Quentin was pretty awesome because I
22:26
was like, wow that some day to have that power as a creative force.
22:30
But I had a really good one which was kind of sad too,
22:33
with Denzel Washington. He directed a movie called The Great Debaters and that scored
22:37
really, really high. But at the same time he had that movie where
22:41
he was she was like a criminal kingpin coming out in All American Gangster.
22:47
Yeah totally, but he didn't direct that one. He was It was a
22:49
really really so all the energy of his directorial debut went to that film,
22:55
and even when I was testing it, everybody's like, no, I don't
22:56
want to see that Denzel one. I want to see that that crime one.
23:00
So even though that movie scored super high, audiences didn't come out for
23:03
it. But I remember like working with like Denzel's election and I had the
23:08
cards and He's like how much to make those all good? And I'm like,
23:11
we don't need anything, like they're wonderful, Like people are really loving
23:15
your film. But it also taught me that people can love a film,
23:18
but if it's not hitting the right marketing or it's just not the timing that
23:23
you know, it can still not be a financial success, even with Denzel
23:27
promoting it. And I didn't don't think he acted, he only directed it.
23:32
Now did you? Did you also work with the Academy? In some
23:36
way I heard you say, yeah, I had a job. One of
23:40
my early peers had a job right out of film school like hosting talent coordination
23:47
on the red carpet. So he would basically hire you as a page for
23:49
the Oscars and the Emmys, and you would you would on Friday, you
23:53
would get like a program of the whole show and you would see like three
23:57
celebrities that you were in charge of making sure they were on camera when they
24:00
needed to be, and that would include like meeting them on the red carpet
24:03
and greeting them. And you know there's every every now and then there's like
24:07
a person who doesn't show up when the nomination and that's that's my job.
24:11
Like somebody screwed up in my job, because that's highly coordinated. So like
24:17
why they shouldn't be in the bathroom is what you're saying, Yeah, exactly,
24:19
and they should know exactly, Hey, your your awards coming up,
24:22
or you're presenting into commercials, we take them to the green room, or
24:26
the producers really wants you at the start of the show. And that was
24:30
insane because I started that in my early twenties. That I remember early on.
24:34
Russell Crowe was one of his first years at the Academy Awards. I
24:37
forget if it was Beautiful Mind or or what came first, but they really
24:42
wanted him at the head of the show. But his publicist was having him
24:45
do like interview after interview and it's like, okay, like we're three minutes
24:48
to go. They just said, grab Russell. We don't even care if
24:51
he's in an interview, so I, being the good employee, just grabs
24:56
his arm interview turds like he's going to punch me in the face. And
25:00
I was like, oh my god, like I'm about to get hit on
25:03
Maximus totally. I think this was maybe even pre pre Gladiator. But but
25:11
he said, what do you want? Why are you bothering me? And
25:12
I said, no, I worked for the show, Like, if you
25:14
don't get your ass in the seat right away, you're gonna miss the whole
25:17
opening of the show. And he's like, oh, and she just tell
25:18
me that, right, come on? And I ran him in and Entertainment
25:22
Weekly the next day was a shot at him looking at me and you could
25:26
see me in the corner like like this like really small, and nobody knew
25:32
the context of it, but it was really crazy. And but I that
25:36
could have been, like I could have been that guy. You know,
25:38
that's everybody would have been talking about that. The next day, Russell knocks
25:41
out a page on the red carpet. So in your new film, it's
25:47
called get Away, if you can tell me the journey of this seven year
25:51
because you know, I'm all about filmmakers making their movies and I know we're
25:56
all nuts, you know we're crazy, But when you get to the seven
26:00
year mark at a certain point, you just got to go, this is
26:03
this? Really? Should I keep going? You know? You did you
26:07
finance the how did you remortgage? Did you finance the house? Did you
26:11
give me your first born? Like? What was it? What was the
26:15
journey? Why did it take so long to get up up and running?
26:18
Well? I had, you know, through all the screenwriting and nothing selling,
26:22
through managers taking my scripts out. I wrote a script about The Donnor
26:25
Party in my mid twenties. I had this like stupid goal that had to
26:29
make a feature by thirty, you know, like of course, and I
26:32
finally did with The Donnor Party. But instead of doing it on my own
26:34
credit cards, I ended up taking other people's money, who then had final
26:38
cut. So basically like, even though I put together the cast, we
26:42
had Garry Oltman at one point wanting to do that movie, we had some
26:45
really strong interests, but I gave up final cut and I didn't know how
26:49
dark a place that would take me to to see producers making choices. It's
26:55
all subjective, but that I did not agree with at all, and then
26:56
have that movie come out and sell the show time and it was an early
27:00
streamer on Netflix, so it did get a platform. But I was really
27:03
disheartened, and I said, I'm never going to do that again. Even
27:06
if a movie takes me thirty years, my next one is going to be
27:10
one hundred percent. And I fell in love. I found the love of
27:12
my life with the swoman Dominique, and she She's like the kind of person
27:17
that I would watch a movie with and we would both get annoyed with the
27:18
same plot lines and get excited about the same movies. So I thought,
27:22
hey, like our taste really lines up. Like what if we just did
27:25
a project together, travel the world, go to different islands, so it's
27:30
not a total loss. Like the movie set mostly on this island off the
27:34
coast of Chile, but we went to Kawai first. We did like a
27:37
year of scouting, you know. And even if I have to put my
27:41
own finances and take it lost, we don't have any children at this point,
27:45
Like it's going to be a great life experience. And when we did
27:47
the rough cut, it was just her and I and we submitted that seven
27:49
years ago to Sundance and like right before they made their announcements, they got
27:53
like one hundred views and we were like, oh, man, like Sundance
27:56
is really considering our video, like and then we got a letter from the
28:00
head at that time saying, hey, like you just missed it, Like,
28:03
guys, like there's something here, don't give up on this project.
28:07
And we were like, okay, cool. Like I had I had met
28:11
Ed Harris to You're a Pollock at the Academy Awards, and I knew I
28:14
could get him that footage. So I said, hey, like, what
28:17
do you think of Ed Harris? And my wife was like The Abyss is
28:19
my favorite movie, Like, let's do it. So we had to configure
28:22
what we had shot to work at in but we had sent it to Ed
28:27
and didn't hear anything for like four months, and finally I get this little
28:32
handwritten letter saying, hey, guys, I got your link. I started
28:34
watching your movie. I'm intrigued, but I can't figure out how the link
28:37
works. Sent it to me again and we were like, oh my god,
28:40
we have a chance. And he watched it and he said, hey,
28:42
like, let's meet for breakfast next day. And after breakfast he said,
28:45
I was meeting you to tell you I'm doing this show Westworld. So
28:48
this was the first time he was and I won't have time to do it.
28:52
But after meeting with you guys and seeing how you're going to fit my
28:55
character in, I'm down. You just have to give me a year.
28:57
So that was a full year of just waiting for him, you know,
29:02
fair enough, but we were like, we have an icon now, like
29:04
we have Ed. He's really supportive of division. He wouldn't have done it
29:07
if we hadn't shot that stuff, you know. So we knew that we
29:11
thought we had something special and Ed did too. So this encouragement kept us
29:14
going. But when we cut the Ed cut, it fell so into the
29:21
male energy, which we didn't want. We wanted it to be very balanced.
29:23
So we had to find an actress to play Dominique's sister, and we
29:27
actually she's from Argentina, so we ended up testing Martina Guzman, who's one
29:32
of the top Argentine actresses and they have a really similar likes. But that
29:36
took a long time because she has a Netflix she has two Netflix shows she
29:40
does and she was into it. But again it was I think waiting about
29:42
a year. So that's another year of waiting and then a whole editing process.
29:47
And then it was only during the pandemic when Domie and I finally like
29:51
said, hey, we agree with this cut. We had been through a
29:53
lot of editors and we just we couldn't get the story to where we both
29:57
felt it was everything it could be. We'll be right back after a word
30:03
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And during the pandemic
30:11
we finally did. We had an editor named Ross who who really came in
30:15
and talked to us quite a bit and worked with us, and we finally
30:19
got it to where we said, hey, like, we're happy with this,
30:22
let's let's take it to market. So after so what are you doing
30:25
these seven years to survive? Brother? You're living in La right, I
30:27
mean, like are you doing the page? You're not doing paid stuff anymore
30:32
obviously, No, that was that's just a temporary job. Actually, it's
30:34
a funny story. Man. The guy who I tested who was the best
30:37
test screener, Like he could just he was like a term itlated. He
30:41
would just go and get hundreds of people and he was my partner on the
30:45
road. But he was like a total gambling at So we would go to
30:48
Vegas for like long stretches. Adam Sandler love to test his movies at this
30:52
place called Samstown, which is off the strip. It's like this, but
30:56
it has an AMC in it, So he did all his movies there.
30:57
So I'd be stuck in Vegas with gambling at it for weeks. I would
31:02
go and you know, play blackjack with him every now and then and lose
31:04
and just say, hey, I hate It's like I don't want to gamble
31:07
at all, Like I'm not into it. And he said, well,
31:10
why don't you try poker, man, Like you can really beat the game.
31:11
And I said, really, I don't know much about poker. But
31:15
it was starting to like blow up at that time, and because we had
31:18
so much downtime, I started to read books on poker and it. You
31:21
know, within a month or two, I was making double what I was
31:23
making testing and I could make my own hours. So so you became a
31:27
professional gambler. Yeah. This was like the early two thousands, and the
31:32
games were just rich, like even in Hollywood. I would go up and
31:34
actors wouldn't even know like anything about poker, and it was just like a
31:38
free for all during that time. And I would just start going to like,
31:42
I don't know, if you know the commerce, it's like the biggest
31:45
poker room in the world. It's right off the five right, and hear
31:48
in commerce like La was the home of poker even before Vegas. Yeah,
31:52
so, I mean I just put all that into the film really and I
31:56
thought, hey, it's funny. So so okay, I got it.
31:59
I got it. Okay, us back up here for a second, because
32:00
I've heard of I've heard a lot, man, I've I've done almost almost
32:05
nine hundred of these at this point in my in my career here as a
32:08
podcast or an interviewer. I've never heard. I've had professional gamblers on the
32:13
show, some actors who actually became really good and they've got into the world
32:16
series of actors of a poker Poker. Yeah, of poker, So I
32:22
know of the world. But I've never heard of a filmmaker becoming a professional
32:25
gambler and using that to survive and to make a movie with. Yeah.
32:34
I mean for me, it's like, I'm not a gambler. That's why
32:36
I'm so good at poker, Like the gamblers are why you make money.
32:38
Like I'm just sitting there, I'm playing the odds. Your professional you're a
32:42
professional poker player, not a professional gambler. All the all the the regulars
32:47
would make fun of me because my wife would make me like an organic sandwich
32:51
and I would take out my sandwich and listen to calm music and they would
32:53
be like, you don't even try to pretend you're a gambler, and I
32:57
wouldn't. I would just sit there for seven hours and eight for big hands,
33:00
and at that time, I don't know if you still could be.
33:02
I think everybody's gotten quite better at poker, but there are those that just
33:06
blow off steam and want to gamble, and that's kind of what you're looking
33:08
for. You go on Friday, Saturday, Sundays, and that's pretty fit,
33:13
that's pretty fascinating. And then you would go back up with the hills
33:15
and stuff like that, the actors houses and stuff. Yeah, I would,
33:17
but you know, those those games can be quite dangerous, like I've
33:21
had I've had a really famous actor that I used to play with, you
33:24
know, rob at gunpoint at one of those games. Like people find out
33:28
those games are going on and they can be robbed, and you know,
33:30
you don't have like the safety of the casino to resolve disputes, you know,
33:35
like actually got into a really really big fight, got thrown through a
33:38
window and had to choke out this pretty well known actor over a poker dispute.
33:44
We will we will discuss who that actor is off. Yeah you all
33:51
like that. I say I choked him because he's kind of a tough guy.
33:52
But it was either that or just kept pummeled to We'll tell Russell pro
33:59
next time. You shouldn't be I just don't love joking. I'm joking.
34:01
No, that's really that's really fascinating, man. I've never I've just never
34:05
heard that. I've just never heard the filmmaker doing that. So that's yeah,
34:09
do you filmmakers, filmmakers out there. I don't recommend this because you
34:13
have to have a certain makeup. You have to like love chess, you
34:15
have to love game theory. You can't be a gambling at it. You
34:17
will just lose all your money. You have to, just like anything,
34:21
put in the work. You know, I read five of the top books
34:22
of the time before even do you do you still do it? Yeah?
34:28
You know sometimes, but you know the movies now kicking in where we're hoping
34:32
that keeps me off the table. I mean, that's fascinating because I mean
34:40
I understood that Poker is you know, a game that you can kind of
34:45
understand and it's there's there is some chance. But if you're looking at how
34:50
the how the table is being laid out, you can you can actually it's
34:53
it's you can actually make it a go of it. I'll be a profession
34:57
out of it. Yeah, And after a while you develop a data so
35:00
you see like you have an edge even higher than the house edge that Biggas
35:04
has over the gambers, like ten to fifteen percent edge and the good games
35:08
that can go even higher. So it's just like if you know what you're
35:12
doing, it's just you know, there's there's no losing because you just have
35:15
to put in volume to cover the losses. But any night, you know,
35:19
you get aces, you get it all in and you lose. You
35:21
got to be cool with these people when they do that, because that's how
35:23
you're making money. You can't get frustrated with people for breaking your good hands.
35:28
You know, that's that's that's why you're making money at it. That's
35:30
fascinating, dude, So you got it. So I want to talk to
35:35
you about as a director, you've got Ed Harris on set, who's an
35:38
absolute legend. There's a you know, in the trailer alone of your film,
35:45
there's some intense scenes with Ed Yeah, where he is yelling at you
35:50
only the way Ed Harris can yell on screen. He's such a great yell.
35:54
Oh my god, that's great. Right. How can you cast him
35:58
and not get some anger out of it? Like when he like that?
36:00
When I when I heard that, I'm like, oh my god, it's
36:02
the rock, oh rock, Like it's just like the yelling. So that
36:07
so one, how do you approach directing an icon like that who's honestly coming
36:13
down from the Mount Hollywood and doing a little indie film because he kind of
36:17
you know, I enjoy it. I think we could do some cool stuff
36:20
here. But he's doing it out of just truly love. So it's not
36:22
like he's getting a paycheck out of this major paycheck approach directing, you know,
36:29
an actor of that caliber. Well, what I loved about it is
36:31
he directed Pollock and he started it himself, So he's like really sympathetic to
36:36
our journey as independent filmmakers. He volunteers at the Sundayance Labs every year.
36:38
He's He's really a good soul of support. But you know, as far
36:45
as having him on set, I was really glad that I was playing a
36:47
submissive character to him because I could feed into that energy as an actor.
36:52
There was one really key scene in the office, like very close to where,
36:57
and I hope Ed won't mind me telling the stories that really helped the
36:59
scene become better. And I was super nervous and I'm saying action and he's
37:02
not coming, and I'm like, oh man, this is the big scene.
37:06
Is he even hearing me? And it's like a minute goes by,
37:07
two minutes ago by I say action again, and then all I hear is
37:10
I hear you, motherfucker. And he comes bareling in and does the scene.
37:15
So the reaction you see is not just acting. It's like he shocked
37:20
me into the emotion that was needed to that scene. And afterwards he smiled
37:23
and he said was that cool? And I was like, Yeah, that
37:25
was awesome. Man. I looked at the footage and that was what we
37:29
had used. And he wasn't afraid to take those kind of chances, and
37:32
you know, we were open to them. We had like worked on the
37:35
script a lot at his house, but he knew it needed something that felt
37:38
felt stale a bit, you know, and he injected that energy into the
37:44
scene. And I really thank him for it, because that's what you're saying,
37:46
that yelling scene. That look on my face is not just acting,
37:50
you know, it's doing it. Yeah, and me being like, holy,
37:54
like I didn't know if like I shouldn't say action like I would like
37:58
my brain was just doing a millionferent things and that was the energy that was
38:01
needed for that scene. So I thought that was really generous of him.
38:04
And you know, he's he's a good guy. Like for him to play
38:07
this character too, that is a bit controversial in this political time period.
38:14
You know what what was was generous of him because he's not like that at
38:17
all in real life. Like he's so supportive and cool and he I mean,
38:21
he's I mean, it's you're releasing the film on the tail end of
38:24
one of the biggest movies of the last the Last, and he's in it.
38:30
He's in Top Gun and he plays he's just so good man, he's
38:32
just so good, so good he just choose up the scenery with his performances
38:39
and I mean he's just remarked he's just a remarkable actor. Is there anything
38:44
that you took away from him as as a as a creative From an acting
38:49
standpoint, I learned so much because I acted when I was younger, but
38:52
I was never a big into like driving across town to audition. I just
38:54
thought it was such a lottery ticket that I've had friends become successful at it,
38:59
but they really put in the time, and I much rather write or
39:01
do projects on my own. But what Ed does that I found really helpful
39:06
is he actually does the scene before the scene of the movie, so through
39:08
improv, he wants to like play that scene out so he knows how to
39:12
go into that scene. So when we did the dinner scene, like we
39:15
say, oh, hey, Dad, how are you making steak? Come
39:17
in? So we kind of like lead up to that scene and that that
39:22
was really helpful to make sure when you're in the scene, it's not just
39:24
figuring it out, Like you've already come to that energy and I haven't set
39:29
but yeah, oh really, so you like like you yell action or you
39:32
like work it before the scene. No, just in a casual kind of
39:36
way. So it was like, hey, like what happened five minutes before
39:38
we get into the scene and we do like a little improvisational exercise. And
39:43
I find that really helpful because then when you get to the scene, like
39:45
the energy is already built to there. You're not just like starting full scratch.
39:49
Yeah, and it doesn't take that much It doesn't take that much time.
39:52
And ed it must have developed that technique somewhere and we'll be right back
39:58
after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. That's something
40:06
I'll take with me forever. I thought that was a really good way to
40:08
go. I've never heard of that technique. That's a really really good technique
40:13
thinking about that, because a lot of times you as a drugon action and
40:16
you're just like like start looking at each other like like you've got to rev
40:22
yourself up to it. So at least if you have some context of what
40:24
happens before and after the scene, yeah, and you're not like nailed down
40:30
to like the reality of the script, right because you're just improvising the energy
40:32
of it. You know, you're not shooting them. So it's like a
40:36
kind of a free, fun exercise. And that's something man, that was
40:38
great. I mean, working with him was just so good because he's a
40:42
filmmaker too, so he's constantly seeing it from that side. And I had
40:46
a great time on the dinner party. Of the actors were more like into
40:50
the idea of my character this that, which is typically how you go and
40:53
I came away from that with a much different experience, like I only want
40:58
to work with people who really get the overall wanted the story, that you
41:00
can talk with deeply about the themes and ideas and not just their character,
41:05
but how it all relates to the greater, greater whole. That's fantastic.
41:09
Now as directors, I asked this question often on the show. You know,
41:13
as directors, we all have that day that the entire world has come
41:15
down crashing around us. It's usually every day, but there's the one day.
41:20
What was that day for you and how did you overcome it? Oh?
41:23
Man? Well, we shot on this island called Robinson Crusoe, which
41:27
we as filmmakers talked this guy into giving us or renting us their yachts and
41:32
getting and told the captain, hey, yeah, we can handle open.
41:36
See like we've never done it before, but I'm sure we'll be fine in
41:38
two days. I mean, it was like a four day journey and about
41:43
half an hour in, I wanted to start shooting right away in our editor's
41:45
face just like turns completely white. And by the end of the by the
41:51
midpoint, he was coughing up blood and it was very scary, and I
41:53
just thought, oh my god, I'm actually like, people are going to
41:57
die in a movie like this is a disaster. And by the time we
42:00
got to the island, we had already crossed the halfway point, so we
42:02
couldn't turn back. So as soon as he hits land, he gets to
42:06
a phone and he calls me, calls his girlfriend and Buenisarius, and he
42:08
says, I'm so sorry for everything I've done. My life flashed before my
42:12
eyes. I'm going to be a better man. And the whole energy of
42:15
us, our crew, our small crew going through that just made everything a
42:20
breeze because people really had like this profound sea journey, you know that they
42:25
really thought like maybe they wouldn't come out of it. So so that was
42:30
a very scary day. I mean, if I think if we hadn't crossed
42:32
the halfway threshold, we might have it turned back and certainly wouldn't have the
42:36
movie that we do have. And I have to ask you man, because
42:42
you know, being doing an independent film is tough enough, but you decided
42:45
to do it in nature. Yeah, you decided to go on boats in
42:49
an island and and then and going underwater and surfing and all this kind of
42:54
stuff like, yeah, you don't do If Jaws taught us anything is don't
43:00
shoot on the ocean. I mean that they didn't mean come on, So
43:04
how was what was that like on a limited budget? I mean it was
43:07
a struggle. But that's the kind of stuff we'd love to do in life.
43:10
I mean, not to that extent we now know, like the voting
43:14
part is not a fantasy of ours. But we thought, if we're going
43:15
to pay for a film, like, let's have these experiences that we'd like
43:19
to have in real life as a couple together, and then we'll make a
43:22
film too. So even if the film doesn't have any success, will have
43:25
had these amazing experiences. And I love being outside, I love surfing.
43:30
My wife is an advanced scuba diverse So all that stuff you see with the
43:34
seals is all one hundred realistic. Did you get the seal? Did you
43:38
get the seals in? Did you fly those in? From la We had
43:43
a seal wrangler. You know. We actually had a local guy that was
43:45
like, yeah, the seals bite people all the time, so that was
43:47
like the extent of our wrangling was like, Okay, let's go for it.
43:52
This is the insanity of being an artist, and especially the insanity of
43:57
being a filmmaker. Like a filmmaker, normal people don't do this. We
44:04
were also able and filmmakers can maybe other filmmakers can benefit from this. We
44:07
were able to take from Argentina some of the most talented people of the Argentine
44:12
industry and their rates are just not Hollywood rates. So you're getting a guy
44:15
and my guy, Lucino, he shot forty fifty movies that are good movies
44:20
in Argentina, been to festivals all around the world. But you're getting a
44:24
much different rate than Hollywood union rates. So we were able to keep the
44:28
budget low. And I'm I'm sure any country that makes films, probably in
44:30
India, you can also find talented people. Know, you can look outside
44:35
the Hollywood channels. Absolutely, I know a lot of filmmakers who have done
44:38
that shooting outside and that there's a lot of talented grew around this world.
44:42
Doesn't always have to be Hollywood other than seal wranglers. You need from Hollywood
44:46
without question. And the financing of the film was also financed by you.
44:51
Yeah, it was all self. When we got ahead, we had to
44:53
go sag. So we actually took on some executive producers, but the same
44:58
problems started to happen where they're on it to even though they promised to say
45:00
we won't have any creative input, it's just the nature of when you take
45:06
money from someone, you you have to invite that. And this project wasn't
45:08
that. It was a passion project for my wife and I, so it
45:12
wasn't one that they could kind of massage into being too much of a thriller
45:16
or this. So we ended up buying them out once once we knew like
45:20
we were going to kind of put out the movie, and you know,
45:22
in a way that we weren't getting like a ton of money up front,
45:25
because that's still what a lot of producers want, even though that's very rare.
45:29
I learned that from your show like Donner Party, I think was like
45:31
a quarter million dollars up front, you know, so that at least what
45:35
year was that what you Yeah, exactly so, but producers still think that's
45:39
going to happen now. And from your show, I learned like, not
45:42
only you don't want that, because you want an honest distributor and you want
45:45
your ceiling to be much higher than that. And if your movie catches on
45:49
and you have eighty percent of it, like you can still stand to do
45:52
do really, by the way, out of that quarter million for Donner Party,
45:54
how much more did you get after that? I get nothing, exactly
46:00
gave that's the game. They're like, yeah, we're buying your movie for
46:02
two We're not telling you were buying it, but we're gonna still just that's
46:06
all you'll ever see. Yeah, And I didn't even have a point on
46:08
it. It was just like a four higher job, even though I basically
46:12
did a lot of the producing and I just totally didn't want to work that
46:15
way again. It's like part of this learn the beauty of this industry is
46:19
freedom for me. You know, I love making my own projects, and
46:22
even if they don't sell or I don't get a chance to make a big
46:24
studio movie, like, it's fun. Like it's an exciting and fun to
46:29
do art and craft and story and the Hollywood interaction can be very disheartening at
46:35
times, you know, it's mostly rejection. Yeah. I try to keep
46:39
my creative very separate, and over the years my ratio of like pursuing the
46:45
industry has gone way down, just for mental health, you know. So
46:47
the more I'm creative, the more I'm doing this. And even if it's
46:51
just a hobby, which I hope it's not, it's fun, you know.
46:54
Now, how did you get the distribution? Well, we had a
46:59
great lawyer. He's like started out on Monster and rather than then tried to
47:07
showcase at festivals, he had given me the distributors that were doing very well
47:12
during the pandemic and giving his clients accurate payoffs you mean money, actually paying
47:17
their clients. Yeah, and not like a little bit of money, like
47:21
a lot of money. And these are like indie films with one or two
47:23
known guys, and this was his top one. And he said, do
47:27
you mind if I just share the cut with Brainstorm? And I said,
47:29
yeah, yeah, sure, I'd like to go straight to distribution. I
47:31
don't want to do this whole journey of trying to get into a great fest
47:35
and sell it that way. And they liked it, and they said,
47:37
hey, like skip it all let's just put it out and see what happened.
47:39
So we were like, right on, let's do it, let's put
47:44
it out, and we just depressed and some people the first waves were pretty
47:47
negative, but now we're getting some braves, some people really responding to it.
47:52
So I think over the years we'll find our audience and at least if
47:55
you get some percentage of people loving your film, that can be a lot,
47:59
especially for an indie. And where can people see it? Well,
48:01
it's on Apple TV, now it's on Prime, and then we'll find a
48:05
streaming home down the road. I'm interested because of your show also on this
48:08
ad revenue. Yeah, AVAD seems to be a way to make sense.
48:14
So I'm sure we'll do that and then we'll end up, I'm sure at
48:16
some point with a streamer in a more long term kind of deal. I
48:20
mean, there's no question that this kind of film will do very well with
48:23
AVAD because it got it. Oh No, there's no question. You put
48:27
Ed's face on the thumbnail and people are flying by and they're gonna he's so
48:31
popular because of West World. He's just a legend because of who he is.
48:37
You put his face on there with YouTube on there in the background,
48:40
but it's and center sell him yeah, and you a thumbnail going by.
48:45
And I always tell people this, what do you do when you're watching,
48:47
when you're going on Friday night you're screaming, You're going through your streamer,
48:52
whether it's HBO or Amazon or Netflix or Hulu or whatever. What do you
48:59
do you scan? And when do you stop? Either when you find something
49:04
that's in a niche that you absolutely adore. So if you're a surfer,
49:07
you're going to watch a surfing documentary or surfing movie. If you're a skateboarder
49:10
or things like that, those things might attract you, but generally it's a
49:15
known face that you're like, Okay, I know because there's so much gluttony
49:21
of product in the world right now that for me even to try for five
49:27
minutes to try something that I'm not knowing, like, I don't know switch,
49:31
I do the same thing exactly, but I got to the point where
49:35
I don't even try unless it's something I've heard about or I feel about.
49:38
So that's why Adam Sandler has three picture one hundred million dollar deals every few
49:44
years. Because Netflix knows that when you're there on a Friday night and I've
49:47
done it. Man. I look, I love Adam Sandler films. I
49:52
think they're fun, they're escapist, they're they're dumb and ridiculous and they're funny
49:59
and they just they're just what they are. We'll be right back after a
50:02
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Yeah. There,
50:12
they are what they are. They know what they are, and they
50:14
try not to be anything else but totally. And when there's a Kevin James,
50:19
a David Spade, a Chris Rock it was his name, the other
50:22
guy from Bigelow, those guys, all the cats, ruption that are all
50:29
the characters that are in the Adam Sandler universe. Sure, when you're scanning
50:32
and you're like, oh, this is new Adam Sandler movie, I know
50:36
what I'm gonna get because it's safe totally. You know, you rarely watch
50:42
it unless you watch something like Hustle, which was the new Adam Sandler movie.
50:45
When he's a it's a drama, I love it. Yeah, I
50:49
love he's a recruiter. I love what he does, like uncut jams to
50:52
it. And of course the one who did Paul Thomas Sanderson like when he
50:54
ventures into that he probably loses song of his core audience, but you can
50:59
tell like he's really going for it. He's a great hitor too, and
51:01
he actually could play basketball. From what I understand, he's like a real
51:05
like he actually played basketball. I heard he has a he has a court
51:07
at his house and it's like a little Hollywood game that goes h Yeah.
51:12
But when I was testing Adam movies, like the audience when you would come
51:15
to them with an Adam Semi movie, their face would just light up with
51:19
good vibes. So he earns that money because a certain percentage of our entire
51:23
country and world just loved the guy. You know, like he someone's watching
51:29
him as much as he might be trashed out there like oh it's an Adam
51:31
sadly go f yourself, guys, someone's watching him. Yeah, And critical
51:37
response is so long. I mean they've they've missed it on so many great
51:40
classic movies. The first critical wave is very negative and it takes years,
51:45
and Adam is going to go down as one of the top guys like Jerry
51:49
Lewis, you know, like an icon of comedy, no matter how how
51:53
the reviews were at the time, And you have to ask do reviews even
51:58
matter anymore. I don't think so. They don't. They don't have the
52:01
like the Roger Eber or time those thumbs could destroy a movie or or make
52:10
make or break a movie. And then the time of any cool news when
52:15
that was a real sight that did a lot of big stuff. I mean,
52:17
they destroyed Batman versus Robin like they they took down an entire studio movie
52:22
because of what they did they said about it. These these days, there's
52:28
too much content moving too fast exactly. You'd love for to get the tomato,
52:32
But great movies don't get the tomato because the tomato is easy. It's
52:36
almost like systemliber thumbs up, thumb down. You get, it's like,
52:39
okay, it's interesting, right, and even then how many I mean,
52:45
yeah, it's nice. Look one hundred percent fresh. We all want one
52:46
hundred percent fresh in our movies. Yeah, but generally speaking, it doesn't
52:52
who like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's not. It didn't.
52:55
It doesn't have to sway. I mean, people used to sit there and
52:59
listen to Jean Siskel and Roger Ebert and whatever they said exactly moved the box
53:05
office. They were they were our friends, right, They felt like friends
53:07
of you who were talking movies to you, like that's how I felt growing
53:10
up. So when they really went and you could see the energy, it
53:14
was like I have to see that. So but yeah, there's no reviewer
53:16
now I think that commands that level. No, No, there's not even
53:21
a website that really has that kind of juice other than Rotten Tomatoes, which
53:25
is just basically a bunch of critics. Yeah, it's just aggregate. Really
53:30
yeah, and then the audience, it's like it's a weird it's I don't
53:31
know, I don't know. But anyway, we had we had one five
53:36
star that didn't even get to Rotten Tomatoes. And I'm trying to get this
53:38
five star review there, and he reviews for a major newspaper, but for
53:42
some reason, he's not a sanctioned Rotten Tomatoes viewer. But it's a shame
53:45
because it was like a dude who really fell in love with Get it right
53:47
if you can, that's awesome. These are the frustrations of filmmakers. I
53:53
got a five star review, I can't put it up by a major newspaper.
53:55
What that exactly? So I'm going to ask you a few questions.
54:00
All of my guests, if you've listened to the show. You know what
54:01
these are, so you better be prepared. I do, what advice would
54:06
you give a filmmaker trying to get break into the business today, I would
54:09
say, fall in love with the process, you know, like, don't
54:13
let the negativity can get in you. And I've seen it happen to so
54:15
many people, and really not only like spoil your journey in this business,
54:20
but spoil your life in a way. And if you fall in love with
54:22
creativity and writing and you keep that separate from the business. And I'm not
54:27
saying don't put all the hustle you have into doing it, but really fall
54:30
in love with that process and don't let anybody take that from me, be
54:32
it writing, directing, acting, Like you can do those things on the
54:37
cheap and have it not be related to your success financially. And I think
54:40
that that's been a key for me and something I would recommend to every creative
54:45
person. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
54:49
whether in the film business or in life. Work with good people.
54:53
Man, even if even if man, I know how hard it is.
54:58
But if you take money, as you know from taking money from the mob,
55:00
it's not fit ll. I know, Hoche, I know how hard
55:08
it is because it's a sign you just want the money to do your project.
55:12
But if you put those blunders on, you can really screw up your
55:15
life or be killed. Literally. Yes, sir as, my book has
55:21
a very how not to follow your filmmaking dream is I like to call it?
55:24
Yeah, exactly. So if you work with good people, you end
55:28
up happy and that's nice. And three of your favorite films of all time.
55:32
This one is a tough one because I was going to tell you you
55:35
should have a podcast just where you asked this question. It could be like
55:37
five, bring up all your favorite guests and just talk about this. But
55:42
because I'm writing like a bigger budget thriller, I've been studying thriller. So
55:45
I'm just going to give you the top thrillers of all time. And first
55:49
is the sixth Sense, because I don't know if people now realize how big
55:52
that twist was. That's all anybody in film was talking about, was this
55:55
twist to capture an audience's imagination with a twist like It's just I've been studying
56:01
the script, reading it, seeing how it's been worked in, so I
56:05
would say that's that's one two thousand and one, because it's I'm writing a
56:09
sci fi thriller and that's got the science, but it's also got the thriller
56:13
aspect, you know, the man versus technology, and it's just so beautiful,
56:16
like you can learn something new about it each time you watch it.
56:21
And my all time favorite thriller is Hitchcock's Rear Window, and I've heard it's
56:24
just impactably put together, beautiful cast, everything relates to the story. And
56:30
because we get out out if you can, we're so free and improvisational.
56:35
I want to do a movie where you just Hitchcock was the best at shot
56:37
structure, you know, like every shot told a story and was related to
56:42
the next shot. And so I've been really studying that film. I just
56:45
think it's a wonderful movie. My friend. I appreciate you coming on the
56:49
show and sharing your insane journey, insane journey of making not only this film,
56:55
but your journey through this business and how you've survived it because it is
57:00
a it's survival and you're still at it, man, And I gotta give
57:05
you props for that, because a lot of people would have quit a long
57:07
time ago, and We've just become a professional pokepilla full time. I'm exactly
57:15
No, You're insane, and that's okay. That's what we are. We
57:17
are insane creatures that just like no, No, I'm gonna make my movie.
57:22
Even if I gotta take money from the Bob. Fine, I'll just
57:25
do what I gotta do. But I appreciate you, my friend. I
57:29
wish you the best of luck with your film. I hope everyone goes out
57:30
and sees it. My friend, Thank you so much, Thanks a lot
57:32
of us. I want to thank Terrence so much for coming on the show
57:37
and sharing his journey with the tribe today. Thank you so much, Terrence.
57:40
If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
57:44
including how to watch his new film get Away if you Can, starring
57:47
Ed Harris, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
57:52
Forward slash three fifty one. Thank you so much for listening, guys,
57:54
as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
57:59
Thanks for listening at a bulletproof screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.