Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Book Club: A Tale of Two Short Stories

Transcript

SMNTY Book Club: A Tale of Two Short Stories · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steph.
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heart Radio. So
0:18
Speaker 1: before we get into this one quick content warning. We
0:22
Speaker 1: are going to be discussing issues around weight, weight loss,
0:25
Speaker 1: fad diets um, and some violence, some grief. Not so
0:29
Speaker 1: much on those last two, but the first three like
0:32
Speaker 1: weight weight loss a lot. So if that's something that's
0:35
Speaker 1: triggering for you, or especially now when we're in the
0:38
Speaker 1: time of resolutions and and a lot of those often
0:41
Speaker 1: do involve dieting and weight uh, then I would probably
0:46
Speaker 1: skip this one, or at least skip the first half.
0:50
Speaker 1: The first half, yes, because we are doing something interesting
0:53
Speaker 1: today where we're talking about two short stories that really
0:56
Speaker 1: had a big impact on me when I is younger,
1:00
Speaker 1: and I guess now because I still think about them. Um,
1:03
Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about that in a second. But Samantha,
1:06
Speaker 1: do you have any short stories that you read in
1:08
Speaker 1: high school or just when you were younger that really
1:10
Speaker 1: stuck with you? Yeah, the ones that traumatized me were
1:14
Speaker 1: the ones that I remember the most. Rose a Rose
1:17
Speaker 1: for Emily I told you about, which is the William
1:19
Speaker 1: Faulkner one that I was like, what is this, and
1:22
Speaker 1: then um, a good man is hard to find, which
1:25
Speaker 1: is the Flannie O'Connor, And I've actually really went through
1:30
Speaker 1: all of her short collection because she's a Georgia person
1:32
Speaker 1: and so I felt like I needed to connect and
1:34
Speaker 1: I love Southern Gothic like that is probably some some
1:37
Speaker 1: of my favorite genre books. Like Flanny O'Connor, she's okay
1:42
Speaker 1: at all, But Carson mccullor's was my person um and
1:45
Speaker 1: love her stories, so things like that really got into it.
1:49
Speaker 1: But I those were the ones that pierced my brain
1:52
Speaker 1: the most of like what is happening? Why did I
1:56
Speaker 1: read this? Why? Like that? Typically, and I guess it's
2:00
Speaker 1: probably a sign of a great book. And that's the
2:02
Speaker 1: same thing I've always said. It's like, yes, I hate them,
2:04
Speaker 1: but they are amazing writers because they are the worst
2:07
Speaker 1: for putting this in my head and I can't let
2:09
Speaker 1: it go. So those two short stories stick with me
2:12
Speaker 1: the most. From high school. I do love a good novella,
2:16
Speaker 1: so like hash mccallers has a couple of really good
2:20
Speaker 1: short novellas. I also read of Mice and Men in
2:24
Speaker 1: middle school and cried for three days very much, But
2:28
Speaker 1: I do love s time back as well, who was
2:30
Speaker 1: not necessarily a Southern Gothic but was kind of in
2:32
Speaker 1: that time frame. So those are the stories that I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
2:40
Speaker 1: I I was thinking about this because we're today we're
2:44
Speaker 1: talking about one that I imagine most of you haven't
2:46
Speaker 1: heard of, called Lose Now Pay Later. I've never heard
2:49
Speaker 1: of the story. Me and my friends we read it
2:52
Speaker 1: in ninth grade, I think, and we still talk about it,
2:55
Speaker 1: and then we're talking about Neo Gaiman's The Problem with Susan,
2:58
Speaker 1: The Problem of Susan, excuse me, And I do think
3:02
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating that when I there were a lot
3:06
Speaker 1: of literature stories that I read, short stories I read
3:08
Speaker 1: in literature class that I it's they stuck out to
3:11
Speaker 1: me and I remember them to this day. And when
3:14
Speaker 1: I was in tenth grade, we did a whole section
3:18
Speaker 1: on religious stories from around the world, and that actually
3:21
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on me and my because I
3:24
Speaker 1: grew up very religious, but I was kind of stepping
3:26
Speaker 1: away and that was part of that where I was like,
3:29
Speaker 1: this story is essentially the same as Noah's Ark, and
3:32
Speaker 1: it was written way earlier, as being very like logical
3:36
Speaker 1: about it and annoying about it. But yeah, and then
3:39
Speaker 1: there was another story that I still think of it
3:41
Speaker 1: to this day. I can't remember like any of the
3:44
Speaker 1: details other than the main character was kind of he
3:50
Speaker 1: was a male teenager and he was kind of a jerk,
3:52
Speaker 1: and he kind of went out and did all this
3:54
Speaker 1: stuff and cut his family out and really burnt them,
3:57
Speaker 1: left them burnt. And then he went through all this
4:01
Speaker 1: like trauma, and he came back and the family just
4:04
Speaker 1: accepted him and they were so happy to see him again.
4:06
Speaker 1: And I just remember for some reason that really stuck
4:09
Speaker 1: with me. Another one, Harrison Bergeron, which was written by
4:13
Speaker 1: Kurt Vonnegut in e I reread it. It's really short,
4:19
Speaker 1: just kind of because I found it online when I
4:21
Speaker 1: was doing the research for this, and it's got a
4:24
Speaker 1: lot of interesting stuff in there that might be a
4:26
Speaker 1: maybe we'll come back if we ever do another short
4:28
Speaker 1: story thing again, We'll say. Kurt vonnegut short stories are
4:32
Speaker 1: so different from his uh novels that it threw me
4:36
Speaker 1: when I first read it, because I was expecting one thing,
4:39
Speaker 1: but I loved it. I was like, wait, it was
4:41
Speaker 1: almost reminiscent of Truman Capote and his short stories as
4:44
Speaker 1: well that I was like, wait, wait what, But I
4:47
Speaker 1: know that's not the case necessarily because they are very
4:49
Speaker 1: different styles, very beautiful in each of us way. But
4:53
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed his store stories. It did go more
4:56
Speaker 1: into that literary world that I knew because I'm not
4:59
Speaker 1: a big I five fan, and honestly, I don't think
5:02
Speaker 1: Hart Boyet is super sci fi. He does have the
5:05
Speaker 1: futuristic vibe to everything he does, and that's why I
5:08
Speaker 1: think I like his stuff and I think he's hilarious.
5:11
Speaker 1: But his actual short stories are very reminiscent to the
5:14
Speaker 1: literary works to me of Trim and Caponi is like
5:17
Speaker 1: kind of very lyrical. Yeah, way, but don't get me started.
5:23
Speaker 1: I want to get you started. Oh my gosh, it
5:25
Speaker 1: was so fun. Yeah. No, I really enjoyed it and
5:28
Speaker 1: I'm glad I reread it. And yeah, there's just a
5:31
Speaker 1: lot of stuff we can talk about now, especially in
5:33
Speaker 1: our modern context, because it is very fascinating to me
5:39
Speaker 1: to read a story that's set in the future when
5:41
Speaker 1: we're kind of approaching that date, Um, right, where are
5:46
Speaker 1: we when it comes to that, which is a good
5:48
Speaker 1: segue into the first story we're going to read, Well,
5:53
Speaker 1: not read that we read and we're going to talk about,
5:55
Speaker 1: which you can find for free online. And it is
5:58
Speaker 1: called dues Now Pay Later. So yes, I did. I
6:03
Speaker 1: read this in ninth grade literature. It's by Carol Farley.
6:06
Speaker 1: I think it was published, but it was surprisingly hard
6:10
Speaker 1: to check down. I guess it's just like me and
6:12
Speaker 1: my friend group that remember this story so well. I
6:15
Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, it's definitely got some language we get
6:18
Speaker 1: in trouble for using on this podcast, like crazy and
6:21
Speaker 1: dumb in it um. And I couldn't find too much
6:24
Speaker 1: about the author, but he's hoping she isn't a terrible
6:27
Speaker 1: human being. But me and my friends, yeah, we talked
6:32
Speaker 1: about the story pretty frequently. And since it's all about
6:36
Speaker 1: fat diets gone really really wrong, we thought it was
6:40
Speaker 1: sort of appropriate, um for all this New Year, New
6:43
Speaker 1: You messaging. And let's get into the plot. So it
6:47
Speaker 1: is about two girls, Deb and trenja Um and I'm
6:51
Speaker 1: guessing on how to pronounce that it's t r I
6:53
Speaker 1: in j A. And they they encounter this news store
6:57
Speaker 1: at a mall selling something called swooties. And this is
6:59
Speaker 1: another reason I think it's probably correct, because it feels
7:03
Speaker 1: very nineties to me, so the shop sounds like the
7:06
Speaker 1: fanciest frozen yogurt shop you've ever heard of. And yeah,
7:11
Speaker 1: it reminds me of the fro yo trend which was
7:14
Speaker 1: taking off in the in the ninety nineties in America.
7:18
Speaker 1: UM so, very bright, very clean, but no employees in sight.
7:23
Speaker 1: There's a sign inside the shop that reads sweets plus
7:26
Speaker 1: goodies equals swooties. I'm pronouncing it swooties, but I guess
7:30
Speaker 1: it would be I'm saying swooties. I'm sticking with it.
7:36
Speaker 1: Um Suties came in a variety of flavors peanut butter crunch,
7:40
Speaker 1: butter rump, pecan, coconut, almond, marshmallow, and chocolate nut mint.
7:45
Speaker 1: And best of all, they were free. I feel like
7:49
Speaker 1: those flavors are very adult flavors because as a kid,
7:52
Speaker 1: I would never go for the coconut almond. I would
7:54
Speaker 1: be like, what what is this? I might, but it
7:58
Speaker 1: would be for the cocon not the almond, if that
8:01
Speaker 1: makes sense. I so like butter fudge crunch, even though like, yeah,
8:06
Speaker 1: that sounds like it would be a lot more child friendly.
8:09
Speaker 1: But whatever. So deb the narrator is suspicious, a little
8:14
Speaker 1: on edge about how bright and um empty the story
8:17
Speaker 1: is and doubtful that they are truly free is really
8:21
Speaker 1: excited about it, though so deb mentioned she's on a
8:24
Speaker 1: diet and it is therefore always thinking about food. The
8:28
Speaker 1: smell lures them in and they try some from the
8:32
Speaker 1: automated machine that dispenses a chocolate covered cone and then
8:36
Speaker 1: a swirl of something with a similar consistency to a
8:40
Speaker 1: soft serve, which, by the way, I still can't quite
8:41
Speaker 1: grasp this um. By all accounts, they're delicious, and they
8:45
Speaker 1: repair try every flavor before leaving trene of vowing to
8:50
Speaker 1: diet for a whole year to make up for it.
8:52
Speaker 1: As they exit, they tell others passing by to go
8:55
Speaker 1: and try some. Yes. So this is the thing we
8:58
Speaker 1: talked about the most, is the descriptions of how good
9:02
Speaker 1: they taste like. We still think about how good they
9:05
Speaker 1: sounded quest we want them. So here's a quote. Swooties
9:10
Speaker 1: aren't cold like ice cream, are warm like cooked pudding,
9:13
Speaker 1: but they are blending of both in temperature and texture.
9:16
Speaker 1: The flavor melts instantly, and your whole mouth and brain
9:18
Speaker 1: are flooded with taste and impressions. Like the first foodie
9:21
Speaker 1: I tried coconut almond marshmallow. Suddenly, as my mouth separated
9:25
Speaker 1: the individual taste, my brain bursted into memories associated with
9:29
Speaker 1: each flavor. I felt as if I were lying on
9:31
Speaker 1: a warm beach, all covered with coconut suntan oil. Then
9:34
Speaker 1: I heard myself giggling and singing as a group of
9:36
Speaker 1: us roasted marshmallows around a campfire. Then I lived the
9:39
Speaker 1: long ago moments of biting into the special Christmas cookies
9:42
Speaker 1: with almonds my grandmother made when I was little. And
9:46
Speaker 1: that's something we have talked about, is this kind of
9:48
Speaker 1: nostalgia of of food and how powerful that can be.
9:52
Speaker 1: So Yeah, Swooties take off, and despite achieving widespread popularity,
9:58
Speaker 1: the product remains free. Um. People are so excited about
10:02
Speaker 1: swooties that nobody really asked any questions about it. Um,
10:06
Speaker 1: someone was paying the rent and the product was determined
10:09
Speaker 1: to be safe for human consumption. People aligned up to
10:12
Speaker 1: get their hands on some swooties, and the machines never
10:15
Speaker 1: seemed to run out, and everyone who partakes starts to
10:19
Speaker 1: gain weight. UM. Trenja and Deb complain about it, knowing
10:23
Speaker 1: the swooties are to blame, leading Deb to ask aloud,
10:26
Speaker 1: if only there was some easy way to eat all
10:28
Speaker 1: the swooties we want and still not gain any weight. Well,
10:33
Speaker 1: ask and you shall receive. Deb almost immediately notices a
10:37
Speaker 1: new fixture in the mall parking lot. A tall, white
10:40
Speaker 1: telephone booth sized box flashing light next to it reads
10:44
Speaker 1: the Slimmer um and a thin, tan, short woman with
10:48
Speaker 1: a quote strange sounding voice is standing outside of it,
10:51
Speaker 1: telling the girls that it is a machine to make
10:54
Speaker 1: you slimmer, that if they step inside, they'll lose unwanted fat.
10:58
Speaker 1: Deb has taken aback at this woman's confidence, knowing that quote.
11:02
Speaker 1: In the old days, people believed they could lose weight quickly,
11:07
Speaker 1: but in twenty one they weren't that gullible that they
11:11
Speaker 1: knew fat diets don't work and that's fat. The woman
11:14
Speaker 1: explains that it is a new process and that instant
11:17
Speaker 1: removal of fat costs twenty five yen per pound. Was
11:21
Speaker 1: this supposed to be based in China or no, so Japan?
11:27
Speaker 1: So I think because of the time it was written,
11:30
Speaker 1: Japan was a big economic power, and that's actually one
11:33
Speaker 1: of the reasons we see so many damaging stereotypes Asian
11:37
Speaker 1: stereotypes and eighties nineties movies was to kind of combat
11:41
Speaker 1: that so I think because of when this was written,
11:45
Speaker 1: she was imagining that in the future, Japan was the power. Yeah,
11:51
Speaker 1: I mean he also thought that way too. I think
11:53
Speaker 1: that it was more China at that point in his books,
11:56
Speaker 1: but that they would be in power in future, which
11:59
Speaker 1: movie we an't not um though, they are both dubious
12:03
Speaker 1: that the woman's confidence convinces Death to give it a go,
12:06
Speaker 1: digging up a hundred thirty yen literally, they just say, well,
12:09
Speaker 1: I mean, how much money do you have? And the
12:11
Speaker 1: woman pushes it, takes some money and pushes the men,
12:14
Speaker 1: and the woman pushes Deb inside the booth, slams the
12:17
Speaker 1: door behind her. There's a humming sound, and before Deb
12:19
Speaker 1: can scream, Trenja opens the door, yelling at the woman
12:23
Speaker 1: when she says that five pounds are gone. In a daze,
12:26
Speaker 1: Dev says her jeans feel loose, but Trenja says it's
12:30
Speaker 1: in her all in her imagination. However, when Deb wastes herself,
12:33
Speaker 1: it turns out to be true. So yes Excited, the
12:37
Speaker 1: girls scrounge up as much money as they can and
12:40
Speaker 1: head back to the mall. The woman reveals, for every
12:44
Speaker 1: ten pounds you lose because you know make trenjeted more
12:48
Speaker 1: than just five, she has to prick your wrist, leaving
12:51
Speaker 1: behind a tiny little mark for quote safety reasons. Um
12:56
Speaker 1: and the girls are so relieved at the weight loss
12:59
Speaker 1: and the prospect of never having to diet again they
13:01
Speaker 1: accept this without question. Yes, and soon after slimmers start
13:07
Speaker 1: appearing all over the world right next to swootie stores.
13:11
Speaker 1: Everyone loves them, and the population at large gets skinnier.
13:15
Speaker 1: Some people have four or five pin pricks around their
13:18
Speaker 1: wrist um, but no one really understands how the machines work.
13:21
Speaker 1: The machine attendants, who are all just kind of slightly off,
13:25
Speaker 1: will explain it, but it's too technical to really understand,
13:29
Speaker 1: and in the words of Trenja, people really didn't care
13:31
Speaker 1: how they worked because it meant they could eat swooties
13:34
Speaker 1: all day long and not gain an ounce, and that's
13:37
Speaker 1: what mattered. Everyone seems to love swooties and slimmers, except
13:43
Speaker 1: for Deb's ten year old brother, Trevor. He theorizes that
13:47
Speaker 1: they are the plot of aliens from outer space who
13:52
Speaker 1: are plumping people up with swooties and then harvesting the
13:54
Speaker 1: fact collected from slimmers for fuel. That once the dots
13:58
Speaker 1: circle someone's risk completely will be cold, their fat content
14:02
Speaker 1: no longer a value, of course, deb and Trenja dismiss him,
14:07
Speaker 1: deb thinking quote, humans would never sacrifice their freedom and
14:10
Speaker 1: dignity just so they could eat and still be thin.
14:13
Speaker 1: Even aliens ought to know that. I could quit eating
14:16
Speaker 1: suoties and using those slimmers anytime I want. But all
14:19
Speaker 1: those little blue marks Trencha and I have are beginning
14:21
Speaker 1: to look like delicate tattooed bracelets, and we both think
14:24
Speaker 1: they'd look really neat on our wrist. And that's the end. Yeah,
14:36
Speaker 1: So it was interesting to reread this because it's been
14:41
Speaker 1: what two decades almost since I read it, and I
14:45
Speaker 1: could I couldn't find it, and it why. One night
14:48
Speaker 1: I just was determined to find it, and I think
14:51
Speaker 1: I texted you about it. Then I was like, we
14:53
Speaker 1: gotta talk about this, um. But one thing in there
14:58
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to talk about um because I
15:01
Speaker 1: moll culture is kind of dying, has been dying. But
15:07
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, this was a thing. You
15:10
Speaker 1: you go to the mall, you'd get your your frozen
15:14
Speaker 1: yogurt or whatever it was, and there's just so much
15:19
Speaker 1: The pretzels are so good yes, I know exactly what
15:23
Speaker 1: you're talking about. I love them too. Um. Oh yeah,
15:27
Speaker 1: and you would kind of hang out with your friends
15:29
Speaker 1: and do this um And I think probably in middle
15:32
Speaker 1: school to high school I would. I would hang out
15:35
Speaker 1: with friends at the mall sometimes. But you know, we
15:37
Speaker 1: both grew up in small towns, so this was a
15:39
Speaker 1: big endeavor, like you had to get out. Yeah, it
15:44
Speaker 1: was like at least an hour away to get to
15:48
Speaker 1: a mall. But I do think throughout this and even
15:55
Speaker 1: we just see it everywhere, is this kind of fad
15:58
Speaker 1: diet ida, this diet culture thing, this fat phobia of
16:06
Speaker 1: people wanting to to eat these delicious sounding things but
16:12
Speaker 1: not wanting to gain any weight from it. And I
16:17
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever done a fad diet per se,
16:21
Speaker 1: but I've dieted. I've definitely done some extreme dyet, right.
16:27
Speaker 1: I would think that I did not do many fad
16:29
Speaker 1: diets because I just that took too much discipline and
16:32
Speaker 1: I didn't have that uh meaning like whatever the whole
16:36
Speaker 1: thirty um I think existed. And I know Atkins was
16:40
Speaker 1: a huge thing when I was in college, and so
16:43
Speaker 1: people were all about it and I was like, there's
16:45
Speaker 1: no way only eating meat is healthy for you. There's
16:49
Speaker 1: no way. But again, like I was like, whatever, people
16:53
Speaker 1: do what they need to do. I'm not gonna I'm
16:55
Speaker 1: not gonna push your judge or anything. But I could
16:57
Speaker 1: not do it. But I was all about the calorie counting,
17:01
Speaker 1: like that is something that I have been really dangerously
17:05
Speaker 1: obsessed with, like keeping underneath a certain amount, and that's
17:09
Speaker 1: my obsession. Was that instead of just necessarily like and
17:12
Speaker 1: I guess Calgary counting is a fat of itself, like
17:16
Speaker 1: kind of a trend in itself tactic, but yeah, it's
17:20
Speaker 1: a whole level of like, Okay, this level of obsession,
17:25
Speaker 1: there's something to be concerned about. Yeah. I was the same,
17:29
Speaker 1: And I think I told you for a while I
17:31
Speaker 1: was keeping I was using an app to keep track,
17:34
Speaker 1: and the app actually sent me a message and it said,
17:36
Speaker 1: if this is true, this is dangerous. Right. Yeah, this
17:41
Speaker 1: is so pervasive and we've talked about it a lot,
17:44
Speaker 1: but especially for younger girls who are kind of observing
17:49
Speaker 1: through perhaps our our moms or other people in our
17:53
Speaker 1: lives or entertainment, Like maybe we're not directly getting the messages,
17:58
Speaker 1: which we usually are, but there's also just this underlying
18:02
Speaker 1: everywhere you look or everything you hear that you should
18:06
Speaker 1: look this way, And I think for me, it's still
18:10
Speaker 1: hard to just enjoy something, to just enjoy, Like if
18:15
Speaker 1: I had a sutie, I would be thinking, like the
18:18
Speaker 1: whole day like guilt. I'd be feeling guilty and like
18:22
Speaker 1: how can I counteract that, which is just not a
18:26
Speaker 1: fun I'm not saying you shouldn't be aware of what
18:30
Speaker 1: you're putting in your body, but I think it goes
18:32
Speaker 1: beyond that. It goes to you can't have those You
18:36
Speaker 1: can't have anything without feeling guilty about it, to be honest. Yeah,
18:42
Speaker 1: and sort of that whole idea at the end of
18:46
Speaker 1: ire where they say, you know, we would never give
18:50
Speaker 1: up everything just to look this way, And kind of
18:55
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about that in terms of what we
18:57
Speaker 1: talked about recently with the pandemic and health and how
19:00
Speaker 1: you and I were saying, like, we know we're going
19:02
Speaker 1: to pay for this, just like the title of the
19:04
Speaker 1: story is, like we know I'm not going into the dentist.
19:07
Speaker 1: I need to go to the dast I'm gonna pay
19:09
Speaker 1: for this later. But kind of that putting off of
19:13
Speaker 1: right now, I would rather look this way and I
19:15
Speaker 1: will deal with the impacts later, which is very not
19:21
Speaker 1: eating disorder territory. M hmm. Yeah. And then another big
19:28
Speaker 1: theme throughout this is sort of the whole idea. If
19:31
Speaker 1: it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
19:35
Speaker 1: There is a whole Seinfeld episode about actually frozen yogurt
19:39
Speaker 1: and this very thing. There's not aliens involved, but there
19:42
Speaker 1: is lying about content in the ingredients amount. And also
19:46
Speaker 1: this whole idea of no such thing as a free lunge.
19:47
Speaker 1: You know, they're giving away this free yogurt and people
19:50
Speaker 1: aren't really asking questions because they like it. Uh So
19:54
Speaker 1: it's a big theme throughout. And then just because you know,
19:58
Speaker 1: I love this, Santa, I wanted to touch on some
20:01
Speaker 1: of the old tick because this takes place in right
20:07
Speaker 1: but it's you can tell it's very much an imagined
20:10
Speaker 1: future that is the product of its time. Also, it
20:12
Speaker 1: was written for children. It was specifically aimed towards I
20:17
Speaker 1: think it was I read at high school, but I
20:18
Speaker 1: think it was am towards like seventh and eighth grade.
20:21
Speaker 1: But there's the facts machine. I love that in the
20:25
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties we thought the facts machines. That's the
20:29
Speaker 1: whole like the future for back back literally is how
20:33
Speaker 1: they communicate is via TV, which they weren't wrong because
20:38
Speaker 1: they can do that the whole like computer like skyping
20:41
Speaker 1: video which didn't exist at that point in time. But
20:44
Speaker 1: also the fact machine that was in every room, that
20:47
Speaker 1: every household had, that was the prediction of the future.
20:53
Speaker 1: I know, it cracks me up every time. Um. Also, yes,
20:58
Speaker 1: that malls would still be kind of this place where
21:01
Speaker 1: we congregate and hang out, and maybe we'll also make
21:03
Speaker 1: a comeback. I don't know, but right now I don't
21:08
Speaker 1: they seem to be on their way out right, yes,
21:12
Speaker 1: And then yeah, Japan has an economic power, So I
21:15
Speaker 1: just I find all that interesting when people are imagining
21:19
Speaker 1: the future. And I mean, isn't that far away as
21:22
Speaker 1: scary as that is, But yeah, it's just sort of
21:26
Speaker 1: interesting to see where we are versus what people imagined
21:31
Speaker 1: would be the future. Okay, So I do recommend like
21:36
Speaker 1: if as long as you're not going to be triggered
21:39
Speaker 1: by a weight issues, which I totally understand. Um, if
21:42
Speaker 1: you are, and it's definitely I would say, don't risk it,
21:46
Speaker 1: although you've already come through this, So I recommend it.
21:49
Speaker 1: Like I said, you can find you can find it
21:51
Speaker 1: for free online. It's really short, it's like seven pages.
22:06
Speaker 1: But moving on, let's talk about the Problem of Susan,
22:10
Speaker 1: which is a Neil game in short story you can
22:13
Speaker 1: also find online for free. But it's also a whole
22:16
Speaker 1: concept now, and we're going to talk about that bits.
22:20
Speaker 1: And I did think, you know, we don't normally try
22:23
Speaker 1: to highlight works by men in this segment, but because
22:28
Speaker 1: it did become this whole thing to describe this issue
22:32
Speaker 1: which we are going to talk about if you haven't
22:34
Speaker 1: heard of it, I also thought about Forever Winter, Never Christmas,
22:37
Speaker 1: which is kind of the whole thing of the Lion,
22:40
Speaker 1: which in Wardrobe is Narnias Forever Winter, Never Christmas, as
22:46
Speaker 1: a lot of us are preparing to enter the weekend
22:48
Speaker 1: of snow and chills, I thought it was appropriate. So
22:54
Speaker 1: did you ever read the Chronicles of Narniasmantha? Oh yeah,
22:57
Speaker 1: oh yeah. I actually had the old school of version
23:00
Speaker 1: of it where it begins with the Lion, the Witch,
23:04
Speaker 1: and the wardrobe, all of the sixties drawings and its glory.
23:09
Speaker 1: I lost it in a fire and I've been on
23:12
Speaker 1: the search for that type of that specific series because
23:17
Speaker 1: I don't like this new switch up with the Magician's Nephew,
23:20
Speaker 1: which we know is a prequel. I know, but it
23:22
Speaker 1: doesn't belong in there like that. He wrote it like
23:24
Speaker 1: that for a reason. I'm weirdly purist about that. I
23:27
Speaker 1: don't know why. N't necessarily so, but I really have
23:31
Speaker 1: been trying to find the old school versions of it
23:33
Speaker 1: because I really loved those books. And it wasn't until
23:37
Speaker 1: you brought this back up that I forgot the last battle.
23:40
Speaker 1: I completely forgot what happened out of my head. I
23:44
Speaker 1: don't know if because you know, it's been so long
23:46
Speaker 1: and it's been a long long time, and I used
23:49
Speaker 1: these books when I was teaching the Bible as part
23:53
Speaker 1: of my curriculum, um in talking about each of the characters,
23:57
Speaker 1: and I really did forget about Susan's character. In the end,
23:59
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, So it's a whole level
24:04
Speaker 1: of like trying to remember where where we where we
24:08
Speaker 1: came from with this. Also in the movie Ben Barnes,
24:12
Speaker 1: That's where I was introduced to Ben Barnes. In the
24:14
Speaker 1: second movie who is west World? He was a bad
24:17
Speaker 1: guy in Westworld, Yeah, and then he was Yeah. He
24:21
Speaker 1: was in several other movies and he's in several other
24:23
Speaker 1: shows that I absolutely love. He was in He's one
24:26
Speaker 1: of the marvel Ones. Is an iron fist. I think
24:28
Speaker 1: he's an iron fist, which is forgettable. But any of
24:33
Speaker 1: those things I can't remember. But I loved Ben Barnes
24:36
Speaker 1: and I think he's fantastic. But this I remember then
24:39
Speaker 1: trying to pair him and Susan Up. I was like, yeah,
24:42
Speaker 1: he's twenty years older than her. Stuff this that's a
24:46
Speaker 1: side tracking of all of Chronicles of Narnia. But yes,
24:50
Speaker 1: I loved it, loved it, loved it. I loved C. S.
24:52
Speaker 1: Lewis during that time in my wondering because he also
24:56
Speaker 1: wasn't as a big snob as Tolkien. I'm sorry when
25:01
Speaker 1: it comes to English literature. I know people are very
25:04
Speaker 1: very like Puris and that mode too, and so therefore
25:08
Speaker 1: I felt like he was a little more open. Do
25:11
Speaker 1: I agree? Like, thinking back on it now and I'm like, oh,
25:14
Speaker 1: I have a whole different perspective, but yeah, yeah, I
25:18
Speaker 1: wanted to me at that point in time. Yeah, I
25:20
Speaker 1: love them. When I was a kid, um, I loved
25:22
Speaker 1: there was an animated lion, which in the wardrobe I
25:26
Speaker 1: loved and I went through such an intense period of
25:29
Speaker 1: loving them that I actually wrote fan fiction for it. Yeah,
25:33
Speaker 1: but I mean it's pretty it's kind of really. There
25:37
Speaker 1: are things that I love, love, love more than I
25:39
Speaker 1: loved that that I never wrote fan fiction for, but
25:42
Speaker 1: I wrote fan fiction for it, and that's that's pretty
25:44
Speaker 1: indicative of how much I loved it. I in case
25:48
Speaker 1: anyone doesn't know what we're talking about, I'm gonna explain
25:50
Speaker 1: it more in a second. But depending on when you
25:52
Speaker 1: bought these are a book series of seven books. I
25:55
Speaker 1: bought them at the time when The Magician's Nephew was
25:58
Speaker 1: the first in the series, but for people before me, uh, Lion,
26:05
Speaker 1: which in the Wardrobe came first. So if you're confused
26:07
Speaker 1: by that, I did. I loved it, and then I
26:10
Speaker 1: just got so weird about religion and then I kind
26:12
Speaker 1: of just turned away. But I do remember him pretty well. Um,
26:17
Speaker 1: and we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna get into all of this,
26:19
Speaker 1: but okay, for anyone who doesn't know, The Chronicles of
26:22
Speaker 1: Narnia is yes, a seven books series written by C. S. Lewis,
26:25
Speaker 1: first published in nineteen fifty through nineteen fifty six, and
26:29
Speaker 1: there have since been animated and live adaptations for the screen.
26:32
Speaker 1: We're not going to go too deeply into the plots.
26:35
Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, you can check out the Saver podcast that
26:38
Speaker 1: I do. We did an episode on fictional foods of
26:41
Speaker 1: Narnia for more information. We really want then because I
26:46
Speaker 1: have a weird picture in my head and then when
26:48
Speaker 1: someone told him what it was, I was like, wait,
26:50
Speaker 1: what Yeah, So it's kind of a gelatin based It's
26:55
Speaker 1: usually lightly sweet with like rose and it's got some
26:59
Speaker 1: sugar on top, but it's sort of a gelatin light desserts. Now,
27:06
Speaker 1: that being said, a lot of people have said it's
27:09
Speaker 1: kind of represents drugs this case, Yes, because it is
27:15
Speaker 1: something that the which gives out to to Edmund in
27:20
Speaker 1: particular in this case to kind of get him hooked. Anyway,
27:24
Speaker 1: I love anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about
27:26
Speaker 1: must be what is going on here. So many there
27:30
Speaker 1: is literal Christian workbooks that go along with the series
27:35
Speaker 1: to talk about and analyze the depth of of the
27:40
Speaker 1: pretty much the origin story. So it's kind of like
27:42
Speaker 1: saying this is a taking genesis into a modern detail,
27:45
Speaker 1: which is also why TOKEN didn't like it, Like as
27:47
Speaker 1: you're hitting there being too obvious and over the top
27:50
Speaker 1: right back to right, which we'll touch on in a
27:53
Speaker 1: second more a little bit. But Okay, despite the fact
27:57
Speaker 1: that Lewis, who yes, wrote a lot about religion, was
28:00
Speaker 1: adamant these books weren't an allegory a religious allegory and
28:04
Speaker 1: specific they have often been interpreted through religious lends, with
28:08
Speaker 1: Narnia being Heaven and Aslin being God and or Jesus.
28:15
Speaker 1: There's even a whole magic apple temptation thing that goes on. Yeah,
28:20
Speaker 1: there's a lot we could get into, but that would
28:22
Speaker 1: be a different podcast. So for our purposes, we're focusing
28:26
Speaker 1: on the Pevency children, Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy, who
28:30
Speaker 1: have adventures and become royalty in Narnia. However, as Susan
28:35
Speaker 1: grows older, she is quote no longer a friend of Narnia,
28:39
Speaker 1: a k for a lot of people. Yep, heaven. Even
28:42
Speaker 1: though yes, Lewis disputed this and said perhaps one day
28:45
Speaker 1: Susan could find her way. Um, yeah, she's the second oldest,
28:50
Speaker 1: she's the oldest daughter of this group, but so why
28:54
Speaker 1: is she no longer a friend of Narnia? Here we go,
28:58
Speaker 1: Here's the whole exchange from the book the last Battle,
29:00
Speaker 1: which is the final book. My sister, Susan, answered Peter
29:04
Speaker 1: shortly and gravely. Is no longer a friend of Narnia, yes,
29:07
Speaker 1: said Eustace. And whenever you try to get her to
29:10
Speaker 1: come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia,
29:13
Speaker 1: she says, what wonderful memories you have? Fancy you're still
29:17
Speaker 1: thinking about all these funny games we used to play
29:19
Speaker 1: when we were children, Oh, Susan, said Jill. She's interested
29:23
Speaker 1: in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She
29:27
Speaker 1: always was a jolly sight too, keen on being grown up.
29:31
Speaker 1: Grown up indeed, said the lady Polly, I wish you
29:34
Speaker 1: would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting
29:37
Speaker 1: to be the age she is now, and she'll waste
29:40
Speaker 1: all the rest of her life trying to stay that age.
29:42
Speaker 1: Her whole idea is to race onto the silliest time
29:45
Speaker 1: of one's life as quick as she can, and then
29:47
Speaker 1: stop there as long as she can. Yep, and that's
29:51
Speaker 1: pretty much it. Um. That's pretty much the attitude about
29:55
Speaker 1: her from everyone, her family and friends. Notably, Lucy doesn't
30:00
Speaker 1: say anything during this exchange, as doesn't sing anything during
30:03
Speaker 1: this exchange, right, I find it. I like, again, we'll
30:08
Speaker 1: come back to it. But in my mind she had
30:12
Speaker 1: the very first book. She was already too grown as well,
30:15
Speaker 1: and they accused her of that from jump, So I
30:18
Speaker 1: found that interesting that that's how it built up. But
30:20
Speaker 1: again I forgot the last battle completely, So well, here
30:26
Speaker 1: we go. Susan was always the more practical one. That
30:30
Speaker 1: she was a caregiver, and I feel like that seems
30:33
Speaker 1: on brand, which makes sense because the children had lost
30:36
Speaker 1: their mother and she was always making sure they had
30:38
Speaker 1: their COEs and that they ate. She is the oldest
30:42
Speaker 1: girl and referred to as quote little mother. She was kind, gentle,
30:46
Speaker 1: and yes, very beautiful. So what's the issue. It seemed
30:50
Speaker 1: to be she's choosing being an adult over Narnia and
30:54
Speaker 1: as Land the fantasy essentially. Um Lewis wrote in a
30:58
Speaker 1: letter about her that she was quote a rather silly,
31:01
Speaker 1: conceited young woman, even though that really doesn't seem to
31:05
Speaker 1: match up with everything else we the readers knew about her,
31:09
Speaker 1: although we are supposed to think her annoying. Um some
31:13
Speaker 1: believe he did this more out of his need for
31:15
Speaker 1: her to represent something quote the believer that walks away
31:19
Speaker 1: from faith instead of telling the story true to the character. Yeah. So, uh,
31:25
Speaker 1: there's this is kind of a tricky conversation actually because
31:29
Speaker 1: and we're going to get into it, but it almost
31:31
Speaker 1: seems like it was just confusion, like it was kind
31:36
Speaker 1: of out of nowhere. There was no attempt like this.
31:40
Speaker 1: There was sus mentioned of her. She's not coming back
31:43
Speaker 1: to Narnia, and that's it. Like there was no attempt
31:45
Speaker 1: to redeem her or talk to her or anything with her.
31:47
Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, never talk about her again, right, Yeah? Good.
31:53
Speaker 1: Like I said to you when we were originally talking
31:56
Speaker 1: about this, I was like I had to go back
31:58
Speaker 1: and figure out what happened because I didn't exactly understand
32:01
Speaker 1: what just happened in the book when I read originally
32:03
Speaker 1: read the book and to the point, uh, and we're
32:06
Speaker 1: going to talk about more about this later, I know.
32:08
Speaker 1: But um, this was during the time that passion and
32:11
Speaker 1: purity was big. I don't know if you know this book, Annie,
32:15
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm very critical. I'm so sorry for
32:17
Speaker 1: the religious listeners if you're offended by this, But I
32:20
Speaker 1: will say it brought me a lot of pain. This
32:22
Speaker 1: one book that talks about a woman's place in religion.
32:26
Speaker 1: It is very stereotypical, um, and some of the things
32:30
Speaker 1: that I get what they're saying at the same time,
32:33
Speaker 1: could be really damaging to women. We talked about this
32:35
Speaker 1: during the Purity during our episode, but I think that's
32:39
Speaker 1: what Susan represented as being anti Christian woman if thats
32:45
Speaker 1: too worldly, Yeah, yeah, now that makes sense, um, And
32:49
Speaker 1: we're definitely gonna break some of that down to you.
32:51
Speaker 1: And we are one day going to do an episode
32:54
Speaker 1: on religious trauma and that's going to be fun. Um.
33:00
Speaker 1: Last that deserved kind of frightened. So another point to
33:07
Speaker 1: make here is Peter, who is older than Susan, was
33:09
Speaker 1: told he was too old to return to Narnia, but
33:12
Speaker 1: he did and she didn't. And to male characters get
33:16
Speaker 1: painful redemption arcs, but she does not. And you mentioned
33:18
Speaker 1: earlier one of the worst characters to me and this
33:25
Speaker 1: entire book. And yes, it's supposed to be that he
33:28
Speaker 1: was childish and didn't understand he'd gone through trauma. He
33:31
Speaker 1: lost his parents too, and was a brat essentially, But yeah,
33:36
Speaker 1: after he just turned into a dragon for his greed
33:38
Speaker 1: and then freed of Best Spell, he repents essentially to Muslin.
33:43
Speaker 1: And becomes whole again. But yeah, I think it's really
33:46
Speaker 1: interesting because Lucy and Edmund are too old which is
33:50
Speaker 1: why you see Eustace and Jill come into play, because
33:52
Speaker 1: they're young enough to believe these, so they technically aged
33:55
Speaker 1: out too. Yeah. Yeah, and that's um. There are listeners.
34:00
Speaker 1: You might be surprised at how many people have written
34:03
Speaker 1: long essays about this, So so many, and they were
34:08
Speaker 1: all really interesting and a lot of them had different
34:10
Speaker 1: viewpoints which I found interesting too. Um. But somebody was saying, like,
34:14
Speaker 1: essentially the message we're supposed to take is that you
34:18
Speaker 1: have to be young and believe, never grow up and
34:22
Speaker 1: never like being an adult and take care of people,
34:26
Speaker 1: or you can't go to what is essentially happened, right,
34:29
Speaker 1: So it's um, And I just remember the city I
34:32
Speaker 1: have Somewhere in one of my journals, I went through
34:35
Speaker 1: and did a whole dive not only in the books,
34:39
Speaker 1: but compared it to specific Bible verses like I went in.
34:44
Speaker 1: So yeah again when I say, these meant a lot
34:47
Speaker 1: to me at that point in time. Um, yeah, And
34:49
Speaker 1: essentially this is kind of a play into childlike faith,
34:52
Speaker 1: like he was being literal, even though he probably would
34:55
Speaker 1: deny it, but it is literal, right, yeah, no, no, no,
35:00
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of interesting quotes about this, uh C.
35:03
Speaker 1: S Lewis. But okay, going back to what you were
35:19
Speaker 1: saying about, you know, the good Christian woman. Um. I
35:22
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks thought that this whole sort
35:24
Speaker 1: of writing out of Susan. It was more that she
35:28
Speaker 1: had become shallow. But a lot of people point out,
35:32
Speaker 1: and I think we should point out that the things
35:35
Speaker 1: that are listed are feminine things, patriarchal, feminine things put
35:40
Speaker 1: onto Susan who has been told she needs to be
35:43
Speaker 1: an adult and take care of her siblings. And I
35:47
Speaker 1: think for a long time my interpretation was that too.
35:50
Speaker 1: Before I kind of got more nuanced as I grow
35:51
Speaker 1: up well as a kid, I was like, oh, she
35:53
Speaker 1: wants to grow up. It's just gross, like so shallow.
35:57
Speaker 1: She could go to Narcia and be having fun, but
36:00
Speaker 1: instead she wants to do this. But it is very feminized,
36:03
Speaker 1: Like we can't turn away from the fact that it
36:05
Speaker 1: is purposely or not that is very feminized the things
36:09
Speaker 1: he lists, but also these are things that he lists
36:13
Speaker 1: when women want to feel good about themselves. The lipstick,
36:16
Speaker 1: the stockings are very specific during a time where you're
36:20
Speaker 1: supposed to be natural and cowering, and so that was
36:24
Speaker 1: too bold of her to be. So I feel like
36:26
Speaker 1: that's to this day that would be listed as a
36:29
Speaker 1: good god the character to dress up for your man,
36:33
Speaker 1: only for your man, obviously or for your yea in
36:38
Speaker 1: this man this very also a heteronormative in this idea.
36:41
Speaker 1: But but that fact, at that point in time, that
36:44
Speaker 1: was even too much, and that was being too loud,
36:48
Speaker 1: essentially too proud of what you look like. And so
36:51
Speaker 1: for women to be that at that point in time
36:54
Speaker 1: was a sin. And so you see that turn like
36:57
Speaker 1: m hmm, yeah, yeah, And I mean I think in
37:02
Speaker 1: case we didn't make it clear she's a teenager. I
37:05
Speaker 1: think she may be twenty, like getting at past school
37:09
Speaker 1: a little bit when this happens. So I mean, it's
37:13
Speaker 1: just kind of a natural face for for women. But
37:19
Speaker 1: it does feel like when you're reading it, like, oh wow,
37:22
Speaker 1: she can't go to heaven because she did this. Yeah yeah,
37:28
Speaker 1: And and as as we said already C. S. Lewis,
37:31
Speaker 1: he denies this, but also says she has time to repent,
37:34
Speaker 1: like it's not over for her, but also it is
37:38
Speaker 1: for us because no one else wrote that story. We
37:42
Speaker 1: can imagine it, we can write a fan fix and
37:44
Speaker 1: if we want. But well, speaking of okay, all of
37:48
Speaker 1: this discussion around this character led to Neil Gaiman writing
37:51
Speaker 1: The Problem of Susan in two thousand four, and the
37:53
Speaker 1: phrase has yes become sort of a catch all to
37:56
Speaker 1: describe feminists and literary investigation into the character, which, as
38:01
Speaker 1: I said, there's a lot and it's actually really really interesting.
38:05
Speaker 1: I recommend going to look into it more. But this
38:08
Speaker 1: whole thing was later turned into a comic. Both are
38:11
Speaker 1: fairly graphic in terms of violence and sex and sexual violence.
38:14
Speaker 1: So just astrix that if that's not something you're into,
38:17
Speaker 1: you can definitely read about it and not have to
38:20
Speaker 1: read the whole thing, which is also very short. So
38:23
Speaker 1: the plot centers on Professor Hastings, an older woman who
38:26
Speaker 1: strongly resembles Susan, who lost her family in a train crash,
38:30
Speaker 1: which is how the Last Battle ended. Um Susan loses
38:33
Speaker 1: her family in a train crash, It opens with her
38:36
Speaker 1: dreaming that she is with her siblings on a battlefield,
38:38
Speaker 1: surrounded by the bodies of dead creatures. Later that day,
38:42
Speaker 1: she is interviewed by a student named Greta, who is
38:44
Speaker 1: doing a profile on Hastings for the Literary Chronicle. Hastings
38:48
Speaker 1: is an author known for her work A Quest for
38:51
Speaker 1: the Meanings in Children's Fiction. The two are discussing the
38:54
Speaker 1: history of children's fiction and famous examples when Greta realizes
38:57
Speaker 1: that Hastings lost her entire family and it's rain accident
39:00
Speaker 1: and says, just like Susan, And she tells Hastings how
39:04
Speaker 1: much that bothered her as a kid um so much
39:06
Speaker 1: so that she spoke to her teacher about it, and
39:08
Speaker 1: the teacher told her Susan still had time to repent
39:11
Speaker 1: not believing and the sin of Eve. So that was
39:14
Speaker 1: what the teacher kind of said was her sin was
39:15
Speaker 1: not believing. Also the whole thing with Eve that we
39:19
Speaker 1: talked about being a woman. Yes, So all of this
39:21
Speaker 1: prompts Gretta to say, there must have been something else
39:25
Speaker 1: wrong with Susan, something they didn't tell us, otherwise she
39:29
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been damned like that, denied the heaven of
39:32
Speaker 1: Further up and further in, Hastings says that she doubted
39:35
Speaker 1: Susan had time for lipstick and nylons after her whole
39:37
Speaker 1: family died, and that quote. I don't know about the
39:39
Speaker 1: girl in the books, but remaining behind would have also
39:42
Speaker 1: meant that she was able to identify her brothers and
39:45
Speaker 1: her little sister's bodies. There were a lot of people
39:47
Speaker 1: dead in that crash. I was taken to a nearby school.
39:50
Speaker 1: It was the first day of term and they had
39:52
Speaker 1: taken the bodies there. My older brother looked okay, like
39:55
Speaker 1: he was asleep. The other two were a bit messier.
39:57
Speaker 1: I remember looking at them and thinking, what if I'm wrong,
40:00
Speaker 1: What if it's not him? After all, my younger brother
40:02
Speaker 1: was decapitated. You know a god who would punish me
40:05
Speaker 1: for liking nylons and parties by making me walk through
40:08
Speaker 1: that school dining room with the flies to identify ed. Well,
40:12
Speaker 1: he's enjoying himself a bit too much, Is any like
40:14
Speaker 1: a cat getting the last ounce of enjoyment out of
40:17
Speaker 1: a mouse? Right? Which is how the story begins, By
40:19
Speaker 1: the way, Hastings cuts the interview short, and that night
40:23
Speaker 1: sleeps in her childhood bed looking through old photos. She
40:27
Speaker 1: notices children's books on the bedside tables and knows she's
40:30
Speaker 1: dreaming because she's never kept these kinds of books around.
40:33
Speaker 1: The one on top of the pile shows two girls
40:35
Speaker 1: weaving daisies into a lion's maine. Meanwhile, Greta dreams that
40:40
Speaker 1: she is on the same battlefield and Aslin and the
40:43
Speaker 1: Witch have come to an agreement. She will take the
40:46
Speaker 1: boys and he will take the girls. She understands what
40:50
Speaker 1: must have happened, and she runs, but the beast is
40:52
Speaker 1: upon her before she's covered a dozen paces. The lion
40:55
Speaker 1: eats all of her except her head with a long
40:58
Speaker 1: in her dream, and he leaves the head in one
41:01
Speaker 1: of her hands, just like the house gat at the
41:03
Speaker 1: beginning of the story leaves parts of a mouse it
41:06
Speaker 1: has no desire for for later or as a gift,
41:09
Speaker 1: again referencing how Susan found a mouse at the door
41:13
Speaker 1: bats at the beginning of the story. Yeah, yeah, so
41:15
Speaker 1: that was a lot of that was quote. Greta watches,
41:18
Speaker 1: unable to shut her eyes as her brothers are transformed
41:20
Speaker 1: into monsters, and then quote the great piece ate her
41:23
Speaker 1: little sister more slowly, and it seemed to her with
41:25
Speaker 1: more relish and pleasure than it had eaten her. But
41:28
Speaker 1: then her little sister had always been its favorite. Then
41:32
Speaker 1: the witch disrobes and the lion tongues her and they
41:35
Speaker 1: have sex, making Greta slash Susan kind of in this
41:39
Speaker 1: dream um watch, before finally eating her head. Greta wakes
41:43
Speaker 1: up thinking it's true that Susan didn't die, that this
41:45
Speaker 1: whole thing actually happened. And then here's another quote. She
41:49
Speaker 1: imagines the professor waking in the night and listening to
41:52
Speaker 1: the noises coming from the old applewood wardrobe in the corner,
41:55
Speaker 1: to the wrestlings of all these gliding ghosts, which might
41:58
Speaker 1: be mistaken for the sk worries of mycer rats, and
42:01
Speaker 1: to the padding of enormous velvet pause and the distant,
42:04
Speaker 1: dangerous music of a hunting horn. She knows she is
42:07
Speaker 1: being ridiculous, although she will not be surprised when she
42:09
Speaker 1: reads of her professor's demise. Death comes in the night,
42:12
Speaker 1: she thinks, before she returns to sleep like a lion.
42:15
Speaker 1: The white Witch rides naked on the lion's golden back.
42:18
Speaker 1: Its muzzle is spotted with fresh scarlet blood. Then the
42:22
Speaker 1: vast pinkness of its tongue wipes around its face, and
42:24
Speaker 1: once more it is perfectly clean. Okay, so there's a
42:32
Speaker 1: lot of things we can discuss about this. Obviously, I
42:34
Speaker 1: did want to include this quote game and set about it.
42:36
Speaker 1: There's so much in the books that I love, but
42:38
Speaker 1: each time I found the disposal Susan to be intensely
42:41
Speaker 1: problematic and deeply irritating. I suppose I wanted to write
42:44
Speaker 1: a story that would be equally problematic and just as
42:46
Speaker 1: much of an irritant, if from a different direction, and
42:49
Speaker 1: to talk about the remarkable power of children's literature. And
42:52
Speaker 1: He's not the only author to I've spoken out about this.
42:54
Speaker 1: Philip Pullman said, I just don't like the conclusions Lewis
42:57
Speaker 1: comes to after all that analysis, the way he touch
43:00
Speaker 1: children out from heaven or whatever it is, on the
43:02
Speaker 1: grounds that one girl is interested in boys, she's a teenager.
43:06
Speaker 1: It's terrible sex can't have that. Yeah, yeah, okay, so yeah,
43:13
Speaker 1: we've already been I'm so excited that you know a
43:15
Speaker 1: lot about this. Samantha and I I got some background
43:17
Speaker 1: and we have kind of how did it impact us?
43:33
Speaker 1: So as we discussed a lot of people took away
43:37
Speaker 1: from this whole thing that feminine things like makeup and
43:41
Speaker 1: stockings are frivolous and sinful and worth shutting you out
43:46
Speaker 1: of heaven for and eve kind of being the representative
43:51
Speaker 1: kind of the first example of that, and because I
43:57
Speaker 1: feel like my favorite character was Lucy, but a lot
44:00
Speaker 1: of people said, like she, Susan was their favorite character,
44:03
Speaker 1: and she was generally well liked, even if she wasn't.
44:06
Speaker 1: She wasn't like a hated character, right, And to have
44:09
Speaker 1: her just suddenly when you know, even she was queen,
44:14
Speaker 1: she was Susan the gentle and she was, you know,
44:16
Speaker 1: taking care of children who needed it and just very
44:19
Speaker 1: kind and to kind of have that go from that too, well,
44:24
Speaker 1: she's gone and that's the that's the end of that.
44:27
Speaker 1: Don't worry. You know, it's interesting too because when we
44:30
Speaker 1: see the flashbacks where they meet the adult queens and
44:35
Speaker 1: she is being forced into an arranged marriage, that's right, right,
44:40
Speaker 1: and she's the one that refuses to do so unless
44:42
Speaker 1: you can pick her own, which would have been seen
44:44
Speaker 1: as valiant. But yeah, that's not remembered. It's it's quite
44:48
Speaker 1: fascinating how the adult version of her in Narnia does
44:53
Speaker 1: not compare to the adult version of her in the
44:55
Speaker 1: real world and why would it be so? Um? But
44:58
Speaker 1: I did, I do remember that a specific scene because
45:01
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, girl, go ahead, tell him you're not
45:03
Speaker 1: gonna marry anyone, you know, like you can choose because
45:06
Speaker 1: you are the high queen. You do you and then
45:09
Speaker 1: we see that flip, but like, yeah, it definitely does
45:12
Speaker 1: feel it needed to be a little bit on the nose,
45:14
Speaker 1: whether it's it was Louis showing his disapproval for how
45:17
Speaker 1: women were acting during that time and wanted to bring
45:20
Speaker 1: him back to this is a religion or not, or
45:23
Speaker 1: this is godly and what's not? Or whether he just
45:25
Speaker 1: needed a villain and he found a way to make
45:28
Speaker 1: one of them a villain and it made sense for
45:30
Speaker 1: him as she is a woman and disposable. Yeah, well
45:35
Speaker 1: that's I'm glad you brought that up because somebody wrote
45:38
Speaker 1: a really interesting essay about kind of that idea, where
45:43
Speaker 1: the author was saying, there's sort of a funny thing
45:47
Speaker 1: happening here that game and comments on directly is that
45:51
Speaker 1: we are really interpreting, like as the audience interpreting in
45:56
Speaker 1: a way that perhaps he didn't mean it, but it
45:58
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact we're in herpreting it that way,
46:01
Speaker 1: and that's how it impact. It does. But the author
46:03
Speaker 1: was saying, like, basically, he got kind of lazy, and
46:07
Speaker 1: so we've got four kids. You've got Edmund, who is
46:10
Speaker 1: the betrayer who comes back. You've got Lucy who's the
46:15
Speaker 1: natural believer. You've got Peter, who is like the stuff.
46:18
Speaker 1: He's Peter at the st Peter essentially, and he needed
46:22
Speaker 1: somebody to be the opposite of Edmund, of the person
46:25
Speaker 1: who believed and then walked away, and she was the
46:27
Speaker 1: one that was left, and so he put it on her.
46:30
Speaker 1: But we were all as readers like, but wait, it
46:35
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense with all the other stuff you said,
46:39
Speaker 1: which which is? I thought that was a really interesting
46:41
Speaker 1: take on that. And throughout Gaiman's short story, there are
46:45
Speaker 1: these signifiers of sex associated with evil. You've got the
46:49
Speaker 1: witches lipstick, you've got handset, professor hasting sexuality, um and
46:53
Speaker 1: the dream She notices the dead center's penis um and
46:56
Speaker 1: wonders what it would have been like to kiss him. Um.
46:59
Speaker 1: She remembers pat sexual experiences with men, making the point
47:03
Speaker 1: that in this framework, in this story, Susan is tied
47:07
Speaker 1: to evil for being sexual like this is wrong. There's
47:12
Speaker 1: also throughout the frivolous desire for youth um quote, there
47:16
Speaker 1: are things about herself that the Professor despises her smell.
47:19
Speaker 1: For example, she smells like her grandmother smelled like old
47:22
Speaker 1: women smell, and for this she cannot forgive herself. So
47:25
Speaker 1: on waking she bays and scented water and naked and
47:28
Speaker 1: towel Gied adapts several drops of she nailed toilet water
47:31
Speaker 1: beneath her arms and on her neck. Um. And that's
47:34
Speaker 1: kind of like in there too. Of I guess it
47:38
Speaker 1: feels like a contrast between she wanted to be an adult,
47:42
Speaker 1: that kind of narrative, she always wanted to be an adult,
47:44
Speaker 1: and now that she is one, she's also kind of
47:47
Speaker 1: punishing herself and being societally punished for being an older woman. Right. Yeah,
47:53
Speaker 1: there's also I just want to put this in here
47:56
Speaker 1: because it's suck out to me how she thought she
47:58
Speaker 1: was old when she quote lost what was left of
48:01
Speaker 1: her virginity at twenty, which I think probably a lot
48:05
Speaker 1: of us can identify with about thinking that's old and
48:08
Speaker 1: then when you get older thinking oh no, that was
48:10
Speaker 1: so young. Yeah, you're a ready exactly exactly. Um. She
48:16
Speaker 1: also hastings thinks about how young Greta looks. Another interesting
48:21
Speaker 1: take I read was this kind of idea that like God,
48:25
Speaker 1: the patriarchy comes for us all that if God, in
48:28
Speaker 1: the context of literature is the creation of man, and
48:30
Speaker 1: in this particular case it is if we're saying, like
48:33
Speaker 1: as Land is the godlike figure and CUIs is a
48:36
Speaker 1: man of his time that wrote it, and it stands
48:38
Speaker 1: to reason that he is a part of the patriarchy.
48:41
Speaker 1: So this whole idea of like the God in this
48:45
Speaker 1: case as Land punishing Susan for being feminine or not
48:50
Speaker 1: fitting into whatever rules of this patriarchy, I thought that
48:54
Speaker 1: was an interesting an interesting take as well. Right, and
48:59
Speaker 1: when we again, when we talk about Susan's role and
49:02
Speaker 1: the individual roles that he has placed on these characters,
49:05
Speaker 1: it is very obvious that it is a very male
49:08
Speaker 1: lead throughout, whether it's Caspian that we're talking about bin
49:13
Speaker 1: Barn's character that I mentioned earlier, Um coming to find
49:16
Speaker 1: the father, and or talking about as Land being this
49:20
Speaker 1: lion who comes roaring through and Evil being a woman,
49:24
Speaker 1: a witch till the Swinton who play the hell out
49:27
Speaker 1: of that character gets hell out of me. I'm not
49:29
Speaker 1: gonna lie, but like, really obviously again women leader, evil,
49:35
Speaker 1: bat um, there's definitely notes of that that you have.
49:39
Speaker 1: You can't really ignore any of that. He does mentioned
49:42
Speaker 1: to Lucy that she would not be a part of
49:44
Speaker 1: the battle, that she would be the healer, and though
49:46
Speaker 1: actually Susan is a part of the battle. She has
49:49
Speaker 1: the bow and she but she's also has a call
49:51
Speaker 1: for help, which Peter comes running to. So like, there's
49:54
Speaker 1: a lot of things for sure. Yeah, yeah, you know,
49:57
Speaker 1: that's a good point. A lot of people um brought
50:00
Speaker 1: that up as well. It's like, if you look at
50:02
Speaker 1: the earlier ones, while she was always sort of the
50:06
Speaker 1: practical one, she was also pretty like she wrote on
50:10
Speaker 1: Nason's back, she was there when he was resurrected, like
50:13
Speaker 1: she was pretty stalwart. So yeah, just not that you
50:18
Speaker 1: can't go from being stalwart and not being stalard. But again,
50:21
Speaker 1: it was just one of those things where people were like,
50:22
Speaker 1: this doesn't track, it doesn't feel right. As we said,
50:26
Speaker 1: there's that whole messaging of being adult equals being bad,
50:31
Speaker 1: especially for women. Then there is trauma, so that the
50:37
Speaker 1: impetus behind this story that Neil Gaiman wrote actually was
50:40
Speaker 1: imagining like Susan was a woman who was left behind,
50:44
Speaker 1: she lost her whole family, and there's a scene at
50:45
Speaker 1: the end where it is kind of confusing, but yeah,
50:48
Speaker 1: they die in this train accident, and then they're in
50:50
Speaker 1: Narnia and as the reader, we realized they've died, and yeah,
50:55
Speaker 1: they're in Narnia and you know, they're happy and embracing
50:59
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and Uson really doesn't not mentioned.
51:02
Speaker 1: So she was just left behind and she's going to
51:05
Speaker 1: deal with this aftermath. And some people really hurt that
51:09
Speaker 1: there wasn't even a thought. There wasn't even like exactly,
51:16
Speaker 1: but if we're looking at a Christian perspective of heaven,
51:19
Speaker 1: that's the intent is that you will forget that trauma,
51:21
Speaker 1: and if she has a trauma, part of that trauma,
51:23
Speaker 1: you don't remember her like that is the joy of
51:25
Speaker 1: heaven because honestly, that's one of the things that didn't
51:29
Speaker 1: trek with me. I was really hurt by the idea
51:31
Speaker 1: that I would forget everyone go to heaven, and that
51:35
Speaker 1: is kind of that narrative that you forget everyone. And again,
51:39
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into the religious back and
51:41
Speaker 1: forth about religious religious trauma, which I laughed about earlier
51:44
Speaker 1: because I was like, there's a lot there, but that
51:47
Speaker 1: is one of the thoughts is yeah, I don't I
51:49
Speaker 1: think this is why I'm so confused because I'm still
51:51
Speaker 1: too connected to well, something bad happened that translated into
51:55
Speaker 1: something amazing happening, And yeah, that means they forget everything,
52:01
Speaker 1: and so that includes their sister who they had loved.
52:04
Speaker 1: Um and she is no longer a part of the
52:05
Speaker 1: story and not no longer a part of the narrative,
52:08
Speaker 1: and yeah, having her in this case go to identify
52:12
Speaker 1: the bodies in this short story or like she's going
52:14
Speaker 1: to be dealing with this right, which is just very
52:18
Speaker 1: very painful. Um. And something else we've already mentioned, and
52:21
Speaker 1: we've mentioned a lot that these stories are more forgiving
52:24
Speaker 1: to white male characters and their trauma, and people pointed
52:27
Speaker 1: that out a lot of it. They was repenting and
52:30
Speaker 1: redeeming for a lot of male characters, but not so
52:32
Speaker 1: much characters like you either were always a believer or
52:36
Speaker 1: you did one mistake and you're out. Well yeah, and
52:40
Speaker 1: I don't know if I just remember one thing that
52:42
Speaker 1: really bothered me and had nothing to do with Susan.
52:44
Speaker 1: But when they do return, and Lucy was supposed to
52:48
Speaker 1: make them believe in and ASLN got mad at her
52:51
Speaker 1: because she did could not convince them, and really kind
52:54
Speaker 1: of state like called her out again. This is kind
52:57
Speaker 1: of that trauma, religious drauma that whether C. S. Lewis
53:00
Speaker 1: meant to do it, whether it was just something that
53:03
Speaker 1: was like supposed to be storytelling, but it's very true,
53:05
Speaker 1: like this guilt on Christians in general. Why didn't you
53:09
Speaker 1: convert them? You partially damn them to hell because you
53:12
Speaker 1: could not convince them? Right, Yeah, I I will never
53:15
Speaker 1: forget one time when I was in seventh grade, my
53:19
Speaker 1: algebra teacher told me, it's like I'm watching you walk
53:22
Speaker 1: off a cliff and I just want to save you.
53:25
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I had that done at
53:28
Speaker 1: my workplace when I was a d J j as.
53:30
Speaker 1: She was just like, you know, I love you so much.
53:33
Speaker 1: I don't want this for you. And I looked at
53:35
Speaker 1: I was like, I know what you're doing and it's
53:37
Speaker 1: sweet and I know you made those love But okay,
53:45
Speaker 1: math teacher, can we go back to now and then
53:50
Speaker 1: really briefly to close this up, because I really I
53:53
Speaker 1: find this so so interesting and legitimately I find this interesting.
53:56
Speaker 1: A lot of people did make this argument of kind
54:00
Speaker 1: of a distinction between what C. S. Lewis meant and
54:03
Speaker 1: what he said he meant versus what we interpreted and
54:08
Speaker 1: how much how much it matters or shouldn't matter. I
54:12
Speaker 1: think another interesting point somebody made is unless you went
54:16
Speaker 1: and like research to this and looked up the letters
54:19
Speaker 1: he wrote specifically about Susan that people wrote in about
54:22
Speaker 1: him and like why did you do this? And he
54:23
Speaker 1: would respond, you wouldn't know. His response, we only have
54:27
Speaker 1: the books. Really unless you go beyond that, and some
54:31
Speaker 1: people did. We're saying, like, there's just a very interesting
54:37
Speaker 1: line between kind of what Gaman was talking about in
54:41
Speaker 1: this short story of researching children's book and searching for
54:46
Speaker 1: men like you and I did, and then maybe being
54:51
Speaker 1: hurt by that or maybe internalizing these messages that might
54:54
Speaker 1: not have been intended but that did have the impact,
54:58
Speaker 1: especially for kids that the young age. So I just
55:02
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting. And Lewis once wrote
55:05
Speaker 1: to someone that he thought this person who was concerned
55:10
Speaker 1: about Susan should go write the story of Susan. Was
55:13
Speaker 1: he being smart, alec I don't think so. He might
55:16
Speaker 1: have been. He said it was like older he liked
55:18
Speaker 1: children's literature that was more of an adult thing. But
55:22
Speaker 1: a lot of people did say this was what was missing.
55:24
Speaker 1: We needed the story of Susan after this, like if
55:27
Speaker 1: you're just going to write her out, we needed something
55:31
Speaker 1: and that's why we're still talking about it today. That's
55:34
Speaker 1: why there's a whole thing called the He could do
55:37
Speaker 1: a post. Yeah, well maybe it's time not anymore, but
55:43
Speaker 1: you and I could get in on this. Actually probably
55:46
Speaker 1: could lawyers and stuff, but this is what the picture
55:52
Speaker 1: is for. But yeah, this was a fun conversation. I'm
55:56
Speaker 1: glad we had it. If you could return to it
55:59
Speaker 1: another day, Uh, absolutely, I think especially when it comes
56:02
Speaker 1: to like religious religious fiction and women in the connotations,
56:06
Speaker 1: because I read many a religious romance novels and let
56:10
Speaker 1: me tell you the amount of marital discourse and what
56:16
Speaker 1: women were supposed to do and be. Man, that's dramatizing
56:19
Speaker 1: in itself. Um, not even read one book where she
56:22
Speaker 1: was raped, got left by her pastor husband, and but
56:26
Speaker 1: she was accepted by another godly man, so she's okay, wow, yeah,
56:32
Speaker 1: all right. Well I thought it was something at the time,
56:35
Speaker 1: and I thought it was something at the time. Was
56:37
Speaker 1: coming back to now, Oh my god, what was I thinking? Yeah,
56:41
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's time what we're talking about. Why
56:44
Speaker 1: did somebody say it's like we're searching for meaning or
56:47
Speaker 1: meaning wasn't there, but we made it then. But because
56:50
Speaker 1: of the product of their time and how we're raised
56:52
Speaker 1: and how it was written, who can blame us? Who
56:59
Speaker 1: can blame us? Okay, well, we've we've talked a lot
57:01
Speaker 1: about this. I love it so listeners. If you have
57:04
Speaker 1: any short stories or any books um to recommend to
57:08
Speaker 1: us for this, or any recommendations at all, we love
57:11
Speaker 1: to get them. You can email us at Stephania mom
57:13
Speaker 1: Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can find
57:15
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at Mom's Podcast or on Instagram at
57:17
Speaker 1: stuff One Never Told You. Thanks as always to our
57:20
Speaker 1: super producer Christina the Best Oh Yes, and thanks to
57:24
Speaker 1: you for listening stuff on our toty's protection of I
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