Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #256: Steve Dolan-University of Pennsylvania/Penn Relays

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#256: Steve Dolan-University of Pennsylvania/Penn Relays · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

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  Track and Field World Juvenile tuned in to our humble servant
• 0:14
  Mike Cunningham for another extraordinary message on Gil
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  Athletics connections. All right, we're back.
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  You pressed play, and I'm so grateful that you did that.
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  I'm so humbled to be your host, Mike Cunningham, National
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  Business Development Manager for Gil Athletics.
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  And today, well, this is a special week.
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  This is a big week for track and field.
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  It's relay week. We've got two of the biggest,
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  best, brightest relay meets going on at the same time, which
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  always boggles my mind, but they do it and they do it very
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  successfully. And today we're going to go East
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  Coast. We're going to talk about the
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  Penn Relays. Help me welcome the Head Coach,
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  Director of Track and Field for the University of Pennsylvania.
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  And also, I don't know how he fits both of these in the
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  Director of Penn Relays. Help me welcome the wise, the
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  wonderful Mr. Steve Dolan. Steve, how are you Sir?
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  I'm doing great, Mike. Thanks for having me on the
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  show. It's really an honor and
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  followed your podcast over the last year or two and I've got a
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  lot of great guests. I'm honored to be a part of it.
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  You know, the the goal is like Pokémon to catch them all.
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  So I've got a lot of episodes to go before I can finally wrap it
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  up on this thing. So super excited to have you
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  here. You know, we do.
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  We've had several Ivy League coaches here and it always
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  boggles me how you coach in such an academic institution.
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  So it's always great to learn more about what you guys are
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  doing there at University of Pennsylvania and to learn about,
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  I don't know, is, is, is there an official nickname for the pen
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  relays? I want to call it the granddaddy
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  of them all, Kind of like the masters, but it's like, I mean,
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  come on, if you don't know about the pen relays, I'm not sure
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  you're in our sport no matter where you are in this great
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  country. So we're excited to learn about
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  the pen relays as well. In your role with what you do
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  for that, great. Me too.
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  Yeah, well, I I guess that the catch line on that was they
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  called the Pen Relays Carnival and the the carnival atmosphere
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  is something really known for. So certainly in the stadium it's
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  a carnival track and field is with all the different events.
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  So then outside the stadium we've got vendors and lots of
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  fun things happening and I think we're known as the Penn Relays
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  Carnival actually. And yeah I'm really proud to be
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  part of the Ivy League. You know the the history runs so
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  deep with these eight schools and you know it's really as an
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  honor to be a part of the conference and those that know
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  track and field well in the collegiate level know it's very
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  competitive conference. So it's it's high level academic
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  and there's a lot of history to these schools but our conference
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  meet is is something to see. It's it's so competitive and
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  it's it's pretty neat. Well, before we jump into your
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  story, I got to say I went to the pin relays for the first
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  time in a long time last year. I actually went when I was
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  coaching. I was coaching at Mississippi
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  State and we were pin relays guys.
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  And so I got to take teams up there two years in a row and
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  experience it from the coach and, you know, coaching athlete
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  experience. But then hadn't gone back for a
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  while. I was struck by how I don't know
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  if involved is the right word. Everybody was paying attention
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  to everything that was going on even during.
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  So I I remember, I think it was Thursday or Friday.
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  We're going through the four by fours and you know we'll talk
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  about scheduling and stuff. But you know we do a lot of four
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  by fours at the Penn Relays. And I was just, I remember
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  sitting back and kind of just observing like the crowd every
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  four by four people were into it.
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  There was no, like, oh, I'm here because, you know, my son's
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  running an hour from now so I had to get good seats or
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  whatever, every single one. When someone would pass them,
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  especially on the anchor leg, I mean it.
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  I was really impressed with how, like I said, I I don't think the
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  right word is involved. That's the word.
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  I keep coming back to how intense and involved everyone
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  was to the meet in the outside area with the, you know, the
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  different shoe guys and stuff that were out there and
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  different. I was, it was a true event.
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  It was a lot of fun as a like. I got to go.
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  Just kind of be a fan and just, you know, experience ton of fun.
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  Yeah, I'm smiling sometimes. I use the word extravaganza.
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  I feel like it is because you walk around the stadium and
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  you've got all the vendors and the DJ and the video board and
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  just all the action that's going on around the stadium.
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  Then when you're in the stadium, you're right.
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  The crowd is very unique. They're super engaged.
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  They just love competition. They don't care if it's heat 27
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  of the small schools 4 by 4, or if it's a high jump or long jump
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  that's happening. They don't know the people.
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  When they see a great performance or great
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  competition, the crowd responds. And that's the thing that's so
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  cool for the outlets that have run.
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  Like if you come around that final curve on a relay and
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  you're battling somebody, doesn't matter if you're running
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  a 60 second quarter of, you know, 45 second quarter, the
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  crowd's going to respond. It's it's pretty amazing.
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  It's a lot of fun. Engaged.
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  That's the word I was looking for when I was saying Involved.
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  Yeah, engaged in every single thing.
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  And you know, it gave me a lot of hope.
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  I was on the 2nd tier on I think it was the last day so Saturday
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  about what this sport could really because I'm always
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  struck. You know we're the most
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  participated sport in the country at all levels.
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  So high school boys and girls track and field is the number
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  one sport for for for participation on the college
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  level. Men and women track and field
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  participants, the greater one. We have more programs than
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  anybody else and yet we struggle a lot of times with I'm going to
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  call it a regular meter even a bit.
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  You know, us ATF indoors, things like that struggle, getting
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  people in the stands. But what struck me on Saturday,
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  there was a high school race in Shanti Jackson Bershawn's
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  daughter, was running and I think he did a 200.
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  And you know, I can't remember if she won or got second.
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  It was a pro or, you know, invite race.
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  And you know, she was a high school senior last year.
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  And this group behind me, I think they were high school
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  kids, They're from the Philadelphia area.
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  They didn't know who she was. And I, you know, I was kind of
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  like man, how do you not know who Shanti, you know, you're
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  like, I'm like you're a track kid, you're a track fan.
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  It just kind of like gave me hope of like, oh see, we don't
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  have to have track nerds and geeks like you and I are, you
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  know, we know every stat and everything.
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  So of course we're going to be at track meets.
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  We can have regular people come and be entertained by what we
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  put out on the field. It just, it really gave me hope
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  of like we can do, we can fill the stands.
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  We have a great product. We just got to figure some
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  things out. So it just was really that makes
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  it hopeful for me in that moment there.
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  Yeah, you know, I think as you hit there that I've always
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  thought about when people talk about how does track get better,
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  how do we get more people involved.
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  I'd like sometimes we always talk about how we get people who
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  don't know any about track to come watch it and and that would
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  be a neat thing to have happen. But I think you're right with
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  the amount of people that participate at some point in
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  their life in track and field, like you said the most, the
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  highest participation of any sport in the at the high school
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  level. I had to at least at a minimum
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  get that group engaged beyond high school and following us
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  because that alone would be a huge, huge following.
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  I I certainly agree with that point and the Penn Relays is
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  kind of special like I don't think every meat should be a
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  mega meat like the Penn Relays in in and if you actually press
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  me on, I think a lot of smaller meats.
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  So there's good competition and are are probably preferred.
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  But the one thing that the Penn Relays does provide is that
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  level of motivation. Like you said that we go from
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  youth to high school to college to pro to masters.
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  We run the whole spectrum and I think that's something really
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  special When you see the youth watching, you know, the best in
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  the world of the Penn realize or or the colleges they might dream
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  about going to someday compete on the stage, stage on the same
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  stage on the same couple of days.
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  That's one of the magic parts of the Penn realize.
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  Yeah, To your point, you're more likely walking through your
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  local grocery store to bump into someone who did some form of
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  track and field in their life, then played football or
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  basketball or volleyball. They may not do track today.
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  They may not have done it at the next level, but they did it.
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  So how how do we get that person back?
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  They had some kind of love, passion for track and field
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  something. But you know, small to big
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  passions here. How do we get them to go to
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  their local high school meet, their local college meet,
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  etcetera. And I and I'm really thankful
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  you brought that up about the size of the meats because I I
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  have been I'm much more on the crusade of like we need smaller
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  meats and we got I I feel like we have to fit in a three hour
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  window. However I I agree with you 100%
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  there is a place for the pin relays that we have different
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  types of football games basketball tournaments things
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  like that. I I think there there is a place
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  for that. I just think not every track
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  meet can be a 12 day, 12 hour and 12 day sometimes track meet
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  if we're going to have fans in the stands.
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  But certainly tradition and lore and the the presentation
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  specifically like at a pin relays that absolutely fits in
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  our sport in some form or fashion, yeah.
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  Yeah, I think we're very much on the same page.
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  You know for me when we run collegiate meets at Penn
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  Invitational meets and so forth, we actually try very hard to do
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  what you described. We try to control the amount of
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  teams, the amount of events and the time that we're going to be
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  there. You know, A logistically for the
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  coaches and the athletes to not be there for 12 hours is
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  preferable and B friend was following it.
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  You know, it's fun to go watch a couple hour exciting program.
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  So I do think those are the best meets at large and then here and
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  there maybe some of these historic mega meets make sense.
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  But I think you know more meets that are intense and and and
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  good competition and and shorter in their duration are I think
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  also the the best way to do it. And frankly, we try to do that
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  with most of the meets we host at Penn other than the Penn
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  realize. Yeah, right.
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  Absolutely. I love it.
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  Well, Steve, I was going to talk about you first and then Penn
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  and then we got into a Penn conversation, but we'll get back
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  to Penn because it's so big. We got to talk about it more.
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  Let's get in our way back machine here.
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  Let's learn a little bit more about you.
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  Somewhere in your life, coaching had to go from something that
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  was done to you, assuming that you were an athlete.
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  We'll talk about that. You know, Steve, go run this, go
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  throw that to where it may be flipped and it might not have
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  been a a light switch, might have been a fader to.
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  It was like, oh, wait a minute, like maybe I could be a like,
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  maybe that's an actual profession that I could do.
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  Where does track and field coaching, where does it start
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  for you? Yeah, and that's a great
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  question. So a lot of people don't know
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  this because I've been coaching on the East Coast and live in
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  the Philadelphia for quite some time.
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  But I'm actually from the Midwest originally, so I grew up
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  just South of Minneapolis from Minnesota and back in my day we
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  we sort of I was an all sport person.
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  So I just grew up playing everything.
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  So I played baseball and football and basketball and
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  track and I'm from Minnesota so everybody ice skates a little
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  bit. You know I I did a little bit of
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  everything growing up and actually in high school as a
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  three sport person. So in high school I did
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  football, basketball and track and field.
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  So that's kind of my sort of competitive background.
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  And then I definitely had a great high school coaches in all
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  my sports and sort of love sports and had great support for
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  my parents and family. But when high school ended, I
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  actually wasn't sure what I was going to do in college.
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  I was actually considering all three sports in some regards and
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  actually went to a a school in the Twin Cities called the
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  University of Saint Thomas. So.
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  Yeah. You're a Tommy program.
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  I was a Tommy. Yeah.
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  Yeah, so that's where I went to my undergraduate degree and
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  truth be told, I went there. I was going to do football and
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  track and field. I was going to be trying to be
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  A2 sport person. At the time they were in
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  Division Three. But then someone got in my ear
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  about maybe you're a decathlete, you know, you're an all sport
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  guy, so maybe you should try the decathlon.
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  So the kind of the summer before my freshman year in college, I
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  started trying some of the new events.
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  So in high school I just ran sort of like 800 and down and a
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  high jumped. And then I I tried to learn
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  everything else going into college.
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  So the first time I actually focused on track and field was
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  in college and I took on the decathlon, so I had a lot of fun
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  with that. So in high school, had a great
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  coach, Brad Brewster. He's definitely a mentor for me.
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  He was actually my freshman high school basketball coach and sort
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  of talked me into trying track. So he definitely was an
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  influence around me as my basketball coach and then
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  eventually my track coach in high school.
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  And then I went to college with a great coach.
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  Joe Thompson was the head coach at Saint Thomas when I was
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  there. He went on to be the athletic
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  director at Luther College for a number of years and he was
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  definitely a big part of my helped me fall in love with
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  track and field and was my decathlon coach.
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  What kind of track? You're an all around athlete.
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  You're doing all the other different sports but for track.
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  Do you remember what kind of track athlete you were and what
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  I mean by that? Not necessarily how good you
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  were or whatever, but like, were you the kind of guy, like, you
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  wanted to know the workouts and why they were important?
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  Did you read Runner's World and track and field news?
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  Or was it, you know, and you could definitely be excused for,
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  you know, because you played all three sports at a good level?
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  Or was it just like, OK, I'm in track, so I'm going to run and
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  jump whatever coach tells me, because I've got football
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  practice starting in June to get ready for that season or
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  whatnot. What, what kind of, like, level
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  of intensity were you as an as a track athlete?
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  Yeah. It it hooked me pretty quick I
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  think you know I I always talked about that you know I started
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  out as sort of a multi sport person that would you know was
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  pretty fast at gym class. But then when I did try track my
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  freshman year and mostly ran the 400 that year you know had some
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  success with it and had some fun with it and then it really grew
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  through high school. So by the time I was a junior
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  and Senior High School I was really into it.
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  Like, you know, a lot of us, I would run sort of the long
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  sprints was my probably best events and I'd run the 800 and
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  sort of like was state level qualified in the 800 and and the
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  400 but wasn't state champion and it was a pretty competitive
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  high jumper too. So those events I did in high
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  school, but I did love it and then definitely knew I wanted to
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  do it in college. And then in college I really got
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  into it. Like once I took on the
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  decathlon. I mean, there wasn't a a a video
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  or a meet or a book that I wasn't, you know, taking a look
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  at to try to figure it all out. So in college, my coach was
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  great, but he gave me the ability to sort of give my
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  opinions and thoughts. And I really did become a pretty
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  big student of it in college. I just sort of, you know, loved
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  it. So, you know, the decathlon was
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  a lot of fun. And I was fortunate.
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  I had great coaches and opportunities and I was forged
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  to win Division Three in the decathlon.
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  So that was a really cool experience in my college years.
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  And then you know, you talk about how do you get to
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  coaching. I I definitely did not know I
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  would coach like so I was a business major as an
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  undergraduate, certainly love track and field.
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  But when I graduated college, I thought, hey, I like sports a
• 13:48
  lot, maybe I could get into the business side of sports.
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  So my initial thought was, could I get into professional sports
• 13:53
  on the business side or collegiate sports
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  administratively or business side.
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  So I decided to think that maybe I could get my master's in
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  athletic administration and kind of tie it to my my business
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  background. So that's where I kind of took
• 14:05
  that step. So I ended up my first coaching
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  job. I moved E after college and I
• 14:09
  started coaching at the College of New Jersey.
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  It was actually called Trent State College when I started and
• 14:13
  it became the College of New Jersey and that's in Central New
• 14:16
  Jersey right outside of Princeton area.
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  So that's where I started my coaching career.
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  And honestly, I was just there to get my master's.
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  So, you know, the GA position that allowed me to get my
• 14:25
  masters was kind of the, the main goal.
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  And then, you know, in my year of coaching that first year,
• 14:31
  like, well, I actually really like coaching and maybe I can
• 14:32
  make a difference here. And I think what kind of
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  motivated coaches, I thought about my coaches and stuff and I
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  feel like coaches have a chance to help influence people from 18
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  to 22, kind of not just the long jump and the sprinting and the
• 14:44
  distance running, but maybe you could be a positive person and
• 14:47
  growing from 18 to 22. And I saw my coaches do that and
• 14:50
  I think that was my main motivation.
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  I was like, maybe that's my purpose.
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  Maybe I can help people chase their dreams on and off the
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  track and grow from 18 to 22. And I think that was my main
• 14:59
  inspiration. Here I am 32 years later, so I
• 15:03
  I, you know, I didn't know I was in a coach and ended up my
• 15:06
  career went 12 years at the College of New Jersey.
• 15:08
  I became the head coach at the College of New Jersey for a
• 15:10
  number of years and that was a great experience.
• 15:12
  Loved it. And then I had the opportunity
• 15:14
  to coach at Princeton. For eight years I was the head
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  cross country coach and men's middle distance distance coach
• 15:18
  at Princeton, working alongside Fred Samara and then Peter
• 15:21
  Farrell. So that was a great experience.
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  And then most recently, I'm in 12 years at Penn, so I'm the
• 15:26
  director of track and field the last 12 years at Penn.
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  So I've been 3 great places, but definitely didn't know I was
• 15:30
  going to coach until I got on that path.
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  So let's go back because it it fascinates me that you became a
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  decathlete and most of us become decathletes, meaning we're not
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  that in high school. There's very few opportunities
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  right now to do the multi events in high school and we certainly
• 15:47
  have an affinity for decathletes.
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  You know my former boss, now retired was the 76 and 80 on the
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  decathlon team for Team USA. You know, so he had a huge
• 15:58
  propensity for decathletes. You know, well known secret.
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  If you apply for a job at Gill and you were the Cathlete, you
• 16:05
  automatically it's just a little bit more of like you probably
• 16:07
  got a good job. You know you got a better shot
• 16:09
  at the job. If you were a multi, how did
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  you. It's interesting you were a A4,
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  a kind of kid also did the high jump.
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  How did you? That's one thing there that
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  that's a rare combo right there that gets you at least two
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  events right in Decathlon. How did you adapt to these odd
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  things? Throwing the shot pole vaulting.
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  Oh, you like the 800? Well, too bad.
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  Now it's the 15 at the very end. How did you like, I assume
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  because you I don't ever want to assume, but you became the
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  national champ that you kind of you have to be a gym rat.
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  So you kind of maybe love the challenge.
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  Talk to us about how you accepted that challenge.
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  Yeah, I think gym rat's a good term.
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  I was a track rat maybe. But yes, I I love sports.
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  I mean, I did grow up my my parents, you know, definitely
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  exposed us to lot. So I think one of the things
• 16:56
  that helped me is although I ran mostly like, you know, I
• 16:59
  literally ran from the 100 to the 800.
• 17:01
  So I run the 100, the 204 hundred 800.
• 17:03
  I ran all the running events in high school and I high jumped,
• 17:06
  but that's all I was exposed to. But track was a short season for
• 17:09
  me. I just did it in the spring in
• 17:10
  Minnesota, so obviously it was just spring track.
• 17:12
  It was a short season and at my high school we were really into
• 17:15
  basketball. We had a really good basketball
• 17:17
  team, so that was kind of the the thing to do in the winter
• 17:19
  time. So my exposure was short, but I
• 17:21
  think I did have some aptitude for the decathlon, like, you
• 17:23
  know, having played baseball and football and you know, you know,
• 17:27
  water ski, snow ski. Like I just kind of had that all
• 17:30
  around athletic background, which really helped me in the
• 17:33
  decathlon, picking up the technical parts, right.
• 17:35
  So you know it came on pretty quick and in the end some of my
• 17:38
  best events were events I never tried in high school.
• 17:39
  So you know I was actually pretty good with the javelin and
• 17:43
  I end up being reasonably competitive with the hurdles and
• 17:46
  some things I hadn't done in high school end up maybe being
• 17:48
  events I would have been better at in high school, just never
• 17:49
  exposed to it. But it was fun.
• 17:52
  I did love it. You know, I I couldn't get
• 17:53
  enough of it. If anything I was the classical
• 17:55
  over trainer. You know, I would train two or
• 17:57
  three times a day if you'd let me.
• 17:58
  So you know, I if anything I if I look back in my career I would
• 18:02
  have trained more efficiently, not more because I was more of
• 18:05
  the Rocky Balboa. More must be better training
• 18:08
  model. That's funny.
• 18:11
  It's not lost on me by the way. And we'll get into this.
• 18:14
  You know Steve, I have you pegged as a distance coach.
• 18:16
  I did not see. Yeah, not only was I decathlete,
• 18:19
  yeah, I was a national champion decathlete.
• 18:21
  We're we're going to talk about how that transition happened for
• 18:23
  sure. But I'm struck by you said when
• 18:27
  you went into college you went into business.
• 18:29
  So even and you talked about you had a great relationship with
• 18:31
  Coach Booster, which you know, you kind of strike me as a guy,
• 18:34
  maybe had a good relationship with a lot of your coaches.
• 18:38
  Was there no thought when you went to Saint Thomas of like
• 18:41
  coaching? It was business.
• 18:43
  It was just like, I do track. But academics is a different
• 18:46
  thing. Yeah, I mean, I was really
• 18:48
  serious about school, and this sounds kind of funny, but I
• 18:50
  think growing up, I just didn't understand what coaches did,
• 18:53
  right? So I coach.
• 18:54
  My coaches came to practice and they worked with us but I didn't
• 18:57
  really understand the the complexity of coaching.
• 18:59
  And you know in the end I guess if where my career has gone, I
• 19:02
  feel like I'm almost running a small business right.
• 19:04
  So I have unbelievable coaches and staff that I get to work
• 19:07
  with every day at which is kind of like a my team, my my
• 19:10
  coworkers here you know the department at large, our own
• 19:13
  coaching staff and then you know making decisions and
• 19:15
  coordinating, you know whether it's a schedule or equipment or
• 19:18
  recruiting. And you know, I feel like my
• 19:20
  business background has really helped me a lot, you know, in in
• 19:22
  my coaching career because I think, you know, writing
• 19:24
  workouts is a lot of fun and and work without this at practice,
• 19:27
  that's still by far my favorite thing to do.
• 19:29
  But the reality is that that's sort of a smaller percentage of
• 19:32
  my day. The other 75% of my day is
• 19:35
  probably not writing workouts and coaching athletes.
• 19:38
  So I think the business background has helped and then
• 19:42
  yeah, so I mean that's that that's kind of how I look at my
• 19:44
  business background. You know how that influenced my
• 19:46
  coaching career? Were the parents or family
• 19:50
  business owners or teacher? What?
• 19:52
  What was the? Was there any like drawing from
• 19:55
  from family? Yeah, that's a good point.
• 19:57
  Yeah, I think a lot of times the apple doesn't fall that far from
• 19:59
  the tree. And yeah, my father was in
• 20:01
  business. So my father when I was young
• 20:04
  had had worked with Three M, which is a big company in the
• 20:06
  Midwest of course, and actually became an entrepreneur.
• 20:09
  He started his own business. So he he was he sold computer
• 20:12
  supplies in the IBM and Three M line.
• 20:14
  So maybe his business acumen, definitely, you know, helped me
• 20:17
  go that direction in my mindset. But then I remember him
• 20:21
  specifically explaining to me, hey, find something you're
• 20:23
  passionate about and you'll be successful.
• 20:25
  And I think he realized that I loved athletics and sports and
• 20:28
  working with people and they definitely encouraged me to
• 20:30
  pursue coaching if it was a passion.
• 20:32
  And like I said, I I think the biggest light bulb for me when I
• 20:35
  realized that, you know, everyone wants to make a
• 20:37
  difference in the world. And for me, when I realized,
• 20:39
  like, hey, maybe my difference is I can help young people grow.
• 20:42
  And I hope that I've been able to do that the last 32 years.
• 20:44
  I hope that when most people look at me, they think, oh, you
• 20:47
  know, coach, help me, you know, get better as an athlete.
• 20:49
  But I hope they think I was a positive mentor and and and sort
• 20:53
  of help them grow as a person because that's a big growth
• 20:55
  time. You know you leave home for the
• 20:56
  first time and there's a lot of growing to be done, 18 to 22.
• 21:01
  You know, I can see as you're telling a story, you're thinking
• 21:03
  about your own growth as an 18 to 22 year old and a 14 to 18
• 21:07
  year old. And, you know, that's one of the
• 21:09
  major reasons why, A, we started this podcast and B, what I do
• 21:14
  and why I do what I do on Twitter, on social media, you
• 21:18
  know, I I think sometimes it's easy for us as track coaches to
• 21:23
  think, oh, I just help people throw a shot, put farther, and
• 21:26
  that's cool. There's there's value in that.
• 21:28
  Or I help someone run the mile faster or jump a long jump
• 21:32
  farther. And in reality, much like you
• 21:35
  said, you know, the amount of time you're on the track is
• 21:37
  actually pretty small compared to all the other things as a
• 21:39
  college coach and as a high school coach, maybe you're a
• 21:41
  teacher. There's AI mean that that track
• 21:43
  practice is extremely small for what you do.
• 21:46
  And by the way, don't forget we're also husbands and wives
• 21:48
  and sons and daughters. So there's, you know, we we're
• 21:50
  family members, things like that.
• 21:52
  It's really the positive impact that you make on young people,
• 21:56
  very few. And you, you've coached for a
• 21:58
  long time, Steve, very few, even for a guy who's had the success
• 22:01
  that you've had. Very few of our kids go on and
• 22:05
  run professionally. And if you're a high school
• 22:06
  coach, honestly, very few go on to the collegiate level.
• 22:10
  But all of them go on to become business owners, teachers, moms,
• 22:15
  dads, clergy, doctors, etcetera. And that impact that you make on
• 22:19
  those young people, that is what helps society becomes better.
• 22:23
  And that to me is why I uphold the title of track coach so
• 22:27
  high. It's like, yeah, you know, and I
• 22:29
  love it when you know, I go to nationals.
• 22:31
  I see you guys producing stuff that just is just bonkers, you
• 22:34
  know, how fast and far and all those kind of things.
• 22:36
  But I look at those kids, I'm like, oh man, that that kid
• 22:39
  right there is going to own a business one day.
• 22:40
  That's going to change the world.
• 22:41
  This kids going to start a business one day that's going to
• 22:44
  change their family. That that truly is that positive
• 22:48
  impact you guys make on young people.
• 22:51
  It's been measurable. It's 100% of measurable.
• 22:53
  I I love that you you kind of were able to see that early in
• 22:56
  your career and understand that it's not just how fast can I
• 22:58
  make my 4x4 team or you know can I get another can I, can I
• 23:02
  produce a decathlon national champion, you know since he
• 23:04
  became one. So OK you go to Trenton State TC
• 23:11
  and J is how I've always just set it out 100 New Jersey.
• 23:13
  Now there you go the I couldn't think of what the T stood for.
• 23:15
  Oh my gosh. I had Trenton in my head.
• 23:18
  D3 school correct. Yes.
• 23:20
  Was that, you know you went to University of Saint Thomas which
• 23:23
  at the time was Division Three just now recently Division One
• 23:26
  was that a draw? The division, you know Division
• 23:28
  Three is a different than what division two and Division One
• 23:31
  is. Was that a draw of why you
• 23:33
  picked TC and J or was it more of like, hey, they had Aga
• 23:36
  position and OK so that's where I went I.
• 23:39
  I think it was a little bit the latter.
• 23:41
  So I it was a late decision that I was going to go for my
• 23:43
  Masters. It was kind of like out of my
• 23:45
  senior year, what am I going to do?
• 23:46
  And I was like you know what maybe I could someone sort of
• 23:48
  said hey you know you've had some success in track and field,
• 23:50
  you love it. Maybe you could get your masters
• 23:52
  paid for if you could find Aga position.
• 23:54
  So that was kind of my inspiration and in all honesty I
• 23:57
  was, I just looked for things around the country.
• 23:59
  So you know I I had three sort of good opportunities
• 24:02
  interestingly enough one was West Coast, one was South and
• 24:04
  one was on the East Coast. And they're all very similar
• 24:07
  sort of you know, similar schools and opportunities.
• 24:09
  And I just felt like in my research that the, the College
• 24:12
  of New Jersey opportunity, the combination of this athletic
• 24:15
  administration, masters and coming east would be a great
• 24:18
  opportunity. So I took it.
• 24:19
  And my starting point just with the decathlon background was I
• 24:22
  was the women's field events coach at the college New Jersey.
• 24:24
  So at the time, the head coach was a distance person.
• 24:27
  He coached the men and women's distance and his wife coached
• 24:30
  the sprinters. So Ed Fitzgerald was was the
• 24:33
  head coach. He coached all this, all the
• 24:35
  distance runners, His wife coached all the sprinters and I
• 24:37
  coached all the field events and that's how I started.
• 24:40
  And then it kind of quickly just unique opportunity, I guess
• 24:43
  lucky in some ways. But I became the head of women's
• 24:46
  coach my second year there just based on on the opportunity and
• 24:50
  then they ended combining the programs.
• 24:52
  My third year of coaching, I'm the direct, basically the
• 24:54
  director. I'm the head men's, women's
• 24:55
  track and cross country coach. So it all happened super fast
• 24:58
  and you know we had a great athletic director, Kevin McHugh,
• 25:02
  the College of Jersey is actually, you know, a really
• 25:04
  special school. It's a great school.
• 25:05
  Academically it is in the state system.
• 25:08
  So it's a it's an affordable school for students that can,
• 25:11
  you know, have the academics and they actually have competed in a
• 25:14
  lot of sports at the Division Three national level.
• 25:16
  So I really feel like I was fortunate to land in a great
• 25:18
  place. I enjoyed the area and we
• 25:20
  actually were competing. You know, we built it up quickly
• 25:23
  to the point of we were competing quite admirably at all
• 25:26
  six national championships. It was really a lot of fun and I
• 25:29
  had a great experience coaching and recruiting at the college
• 25:31
  New Jersey. So let me check this timeline,
• 25:33
  right your first year and and when you say your first year,
• 25:37
  you tell me your first year of grad work, you go in and you
• 25:40
  coach the field field events the second year, so still grad work,
• 25:46
  You're now the women's head coach.
• 25:49
  Yeah. It was kind of accelerated.
• 25:50
  So I did kind of a year and a half program.
• 25:52
  I took an. Extra heavy course load.
• 25:54
  But yeah, I sort of a year and a half to get my masters, but in
• 25:56
  the second year I'm the head women's coach.
• 25:58
  And then the third year the head men's coach had been there with
• 26:02
  31 years. Rick Mccorkle, he did a great
• 26:03
  job with the men's program. He was kind of at retirement
• 26:06
  stage and he actually encouraged the athletic director to combine
• 26:10
  it, to go with the more combined model, to let someone really do
• 26:12
  it full time because he was full time teaching, part time
• 26:15
  coaching. That was the setup.
• 26:17
  So I was the first person ever to become, you know, full time
• 26:20
  coaching at the college New Jersey based on that coach's
• 26:23
  recommendation. So yeah, by my third year, I'm
• 26:26
  doing both. So you're roughly 25 years old.
• 26:32
  Yeah, I was young. Seems like yesterday, but the
• 26:34
  years have gone by. But my favorite question I asked
• 26:38
  this of every coach we have on the podcast when they if they've
• 26:42
  become a head coach somewhere in their career, their first time,
• 26:44
  they become head coach. You know, were you prepared?
• 26:47
  And you know, we have we have a lot of amazing humble humility,
• 26:51
  high humility people. And, you know, the right answer
• 26:53
  is always like, yeah, yeah, I know I wasn't.
• 26:54
  Because, you know, you just don't know what the head
• 26:56
  coaching job, no matter how long you've coached, you had been
• 26:59
  coaching. Well, you'd only been coaching
• 27:01
  for one year before you became the women's head coach and then
• 27:03
  only for two years before you became the director And not just
• 27:06
  the director, the first director.
• 27:08
  So there's no playbook on what how we've run this program as a
• 27:12
  combined program. I'm not even sure how to ask the
• 27:16
  question. I'm asking the maybe the most
• 27:19
  blunt I have ever asked a question on this podcast.
• 27:21
  Forgive me. What the hell were you thinking?
• 27:23
  Like, how in the world do you sit down and go, all right, what
• 27:25
  do I do first? Yeah.
• 27:28
  Well, it was exciting. But again, I I showed up there
• 27:30
  to get my masters thinking, I'm here for you 2 and I'm going to
• 27:33
  go into the business world, right, Or professional or
• 27:35
  collegiate sports. So I caught the interest in
• 27:37
  coaching and I certainly, I think my decathlon background
• 27:40
  has served me well here. AI had a little bit of interest
• 27:42
  in knowledge in all the event groups.
• 27:44
  And B, like I think the average decathlete, you know, likes to
• 27:47
  work. You know, I like, I like
• 27:48
  training, I like working hard and I sort of said, hey, I'm
• 27:51
  just going to like hustle with my recruiting, my alumni
• 27:53
  relations, my hosting meets. I'm just going to hustle and and
• 27:57
  then I I had great people. I mean don't get me wrong I was
• 27:59
  very fortunate that you know a lot of sort of part time
• 28:01
  assistants that came and made it happen.
• 28:03
  But we had you know over 100 athletes in the program across
• 28:05
  both genders and we were trying and all the event groups and it
• 28:08
  was really a lot of fun and but definitely a lot of trial by
• 28:10
  error. I mean I definitely you know a
• 28:12
  lot of stuff. I I didn't exactly know what I
• 28:14
  was going to do. I was just going to put my best
• 28:16
  effort forward and see what would happen.
• 28:18
  And you know I was fortunate to have some great athletes that
• 28:20
  believed in in what we were trying to do and some great
• 28:22
  coaches and we got it rolling. It was a lot of fun at the
• 28:25
  College of New Jersey. Now the the, the next two
• 28:29
  questions I always ask and so this is gonna be a little harder
• 28:31
  because in your quote UN quote, only in your third year
• 28:35
  coaching. But I always like to ask the
• 28:36
  question, what was something when you became the director?
• 28:40
  What was something that you thought was gonna be hard but
• 28:44
  was actually easier than you thought?
• 28:46
  And when you become the director, when you're an
• 28:48
  assistant coach, sometimes assistant coaches don't realize
• 28:50
  just how lucky we have it. Sometimes you're in charge of
• 28:53
  one event group and maybe you're in charge of equipment or
• 28:56
  scheduling or something. But the head coach has, what's
• 29:00
  the old saying? The buck stops here.
• 29:02
  You have everything scheduling, budgeting, home meat management,
• 29:06
  hiring, firing staff. Maybe you're on committees to
• 29:09
  hire for other sport. You know, they're you, you have
• 29:11
  much more responsibility inside the athletic department.
• 29:14
  Again, this is only your third year though, so was there
• 29:16
  something that as you did take that job that you thought, boy,
• 29:19
  it's, you know, it's going to be hard to do this part.
• 29:22
  Maybe it was recruiting again, all these hats you have to wear.
• 29:25
  But it ended up being like, Oh yeah, actually I kind of fell to
• 29:27
  it like a, you know, duck in water.
• 29:29
  I. Don't know if any of it was
• 29:31
  easy. I think the part I felt most
• 29:33
  comfortable with, you kind of asked me about my high school
• 29:36
  and college career. I had really become like I
• 29:39
  studied the sport really hard and I felt like a lot of my
• 29:41
  success in decathlon. I had some athletic ability, but
• 29:44
  a lot of it was I just out trained people.
• 29:46
  I just worked really hard and tried to figure out how to be
• 29:48
  the best technically I could. So I actually think the easiest
• 29:51
  part was I felt fairly ready even though I was young on the
• 29:54
  technical parts of track and field.
• 29:56
  So you know I worked with lots of different event groups to the
• 29:58
  only full time coach. But like I felt most comfortable
• 30:01
  actually with the planning of the workouts and the training
• 30:04
  part. Like even though it was a lot of
• 30:05
  events to sort of be involved with.
• 30:07
  The harder part was just getting comfortable with how do you
• 30:10
  recruit, you know, how do you manage your budget, You know
• 30:13
  those types of things are the things that take the biggest
• 30:14
  learning curve. But again, I had a great
• 30:16
  athletic director that was super supportive.
• 30:18
  I was fortunate to pick up some great assistant coaches, you
• 30:21
  know and the team was was great. You know, I think that I was
• 30:24
  trying to raise the bar, you know, like in terms of what good
• 30:27
  performances are and the team just kept responding.
• 30:29
  Every time I put the bar a little higher, everybody jumped
• 30:31
  a little higher, you know, in terms of, you know, first we're
• 30:34
  trying to win our conference meet.
• 30:35
  Well, then that became kind of commonplace.
• 30:36
  Then we were trying to do well on the East Coast and then we
• 30:38
  became that. And then also we're trying to
• 30:40
  get beat nationally. And it was really cool to watch
• 30:42
  the team. You know, it's the peer, the
• 30:44
  peer leadership was really cool to watch where they all got
• 30:47
  excited about what they were doing and and just kept
• 30:50
  elevating the expectations. It was a lot of fun.
• 30:52
  And yeah, I I think a lot of things I do at Penn today are
• 30:55
  not so different than my first years of we try to create a
• 30:57
  family atmosphere. So because I was the only full
• 31:00
  time coach, the men's and women's teams had to be together
• 31:03
  and because I wanted all the events to be important as a
• 31:07
  Decapulate, we had a real mix of diverse events that were
• 31:10
  together. And I think we really, to this
• 31:12
  day, that's my favorite part of it.
• 31:13
  I love it at Penn. Like last week, we had a jumper
• 31:15
  make a big PR jump 7 two and the high jump and to watch our whole
• 31:19
  team rush them afterwards and jump around men and women, all
• 31:21
  event groups, and be excited. That's the same stuff that used
• 31:25
  to happen years ago at TCNJ and it's still the things I think is
• 31:28
  so cool about our sport like track and field.
• 31:30
  It's it's awesome. I mean diversity of events,
• 31:33
  diversity of athletes, men's and women doing it together.
• 31:36
  So, I mean, I'm going on a tangent here, but I think some
• 31:38
  of the coolest things that happened at the college New
• 31:40
  Jersey are still the things I get excited about here at Penn.
• 31:44
  Steve, my middle name is Tangent, so don't be afraid.
• 31:47
  We're we're all good, 'cause I'm going to get on my own tangent
• 31:48
  somewhere and in fact, I'm going to keep on that tangent.
• 31:50
  I do love that, 'cause I think that's one of the hard parts
• 31:54
  about track is, you know, our throwers will be over here,
• 31:58
  practicing, our jumpers over here, our distance guys and gals
• 32:01
  are on the road, and then we come to these meets, especially
• 32:03
  our conference meet, things that are scored.
• 32:05
  I'm I really do love scored meets.
• 32:07
  That's why I like the conference meets are my even over NCAA
• 32:11
  meets. The conference meets are my
• 32:13
  absolute favorite meets in the world to go to watch.
• 32:17
  So then we go to these meets and we talk about team and you know
• 32:19
  we, you know we're trying to get first place, but we haven't been
• 32:23
  a team all year. You know, heck we even have you
• 32:26
  know still and you know whether you agree or disagree on this,
• 32:29
  teams that will send their throwers to this meet and then
• 32:32
  their sprinters go down to this meet and then we try to
• 32:35
  culminate this with where the team.
• 32:36
  So to hear that story of like the high jumper and then
• 32:40
  everybody comes to rush, that's a hard thing for track and hard
• 32:44
  thing for coaching Staffs, hard things for a head coach to
• 32:48
  instill that type of culture. And not everybody thinks it's
• 32:50
  important. And again, you know, I'm not
• 32:51
  here to debate that part, but I think that's a that's a hard
• 32:54
  thing to do. And so when it comes through
• 32:57
  Bravo, I mean that's again, that's the culture word of what
• 32:59
  you're building. Yeah, I mean, it's really been
• 33:02
  fun. Like, you know, again, the track
• 33:04
  is a collection of people competing in individual events.
• 33:06
  And, you know, when it's your moment, you do you stand there
• 33:09
  yourself in the long jump runway, you're standing in that
• 33:11
  circle or you have to, you know, step on that starting line.
• 33:14
  So individually you're in that moment, but the power of the
• 33:16
  team, right, Like to train together to encourage each
• 33:18
  other. And you know, I saw it this
• 33:20
  weekend. We had one of the best weekends
• 33:21
  in a long time for Penn Track and Field, but it all happened
• 33:24
  in about a two hour span. I thought the success got
• 33:27
  contagious. You know, a couple people hit a
• 33:28
  big triple jump. Wow, that was exciting.
• 33:30
  Next thing you know, the high jump was exciting in the pole
• 33:32
  vault and there was a fast run on the track.
• 33:34
  And I think that whole thing kind of grows and it's something
• 33:37
  we have a lot of fun with the pen.
• 33:38
  I I just love the, you know, again we call it the family.
• 33:41
  We wanted to do the Penn track and field family.
• 33:43
  They all feel a part of it and actually you hope it extends
• 33:45
  beyond what happens at practice in the meets, right.
• 33:47
  So you know are they looking out for each other up on campus are
• 33:50
  they making good decisions outside of practice.
• 33:52
  You know if a student is looking for class selection and can
• 33:56
  their teammates help guide them to the best opportunities.
• 33:58
  You know I I like to think it it is all those things.
• 34:01
  So you know, we definitely celebrate the team atmosphere
• 34:03
  and I think the individuals are better because of it and it's a
• 34:07
  neat part of our of our sport, you know, and it's something we
• 34:09
  we try to, we try to build. Yeah, I think you're spot on.
• 34:11
  I think that's why we see, you know, a quarter Miller who can
• 34:15
  can't break 50 in the open quarter but then gets on a relay
• 34:18
  team and splits 48 all day. There's different when it's, you
• 34:22
  know, I'm beholden to that person in front of me that I got
• 34:24
  to get the baton to or I got to help the person coming in with
• 34:27
  the baton. It's you're no longer running
• 34:29
  for Mike, you're running for pin.
• 34:32
  And I think that's why you almost never see it the opposite
• 34:34
  way. You never, almost never see a
• 34:35
  kid who can only split 50 on the four by 4:00 but then can run 48
• 34:38
  in the open. I don't know that I've ever
• 34:39
  heard that, But you put a baton in hand and realize that you got
• 34:43
  to go help Sally up there and Tina's going to give you the
• 34:45
  baton. Special things happen when I'm
• 34:48
  running for someone else, not just myself and APR, so.
• 34:51
  Yeah, boy, you see that all the time.
• 34:53
  We just had that experience during the indoor season.
• 34:55
  So our women's team had a sort of exciting indoor season and
• 34:58
  broke the old time. I have the record in the four by
• 35:00
  four and just as you described it, every athlete at least a
• 35:04
  full second fashion. They could run open, at least,
• 35:06
  you know, with that, with that baton in their hand, the power
• 35:08
  of a group, right? Power of the baton, baby.
• 35:11
  I got to do it. That's right.
• 35:13
  So how long did you say you were at TC and J?
• 35:16
  Not nine years. No, it's more is there 12 years
• 35:18
  from beginning again, you know, starting as a graduate assistant
• 35:21
  and about 12 years at TC and J. Wouldn't you?
• 35:23
  So kind of two questions. When you look at that time at TC
• 35:26
  and J in, in totality, so just like you said from Aga to a
• 35:31
  veteran head coach now at that part, how did you see yourself
• 35:34
  change and kind of with that kind of my second question is
• 35:37
  when and where did that transition?
• 35:39
  I I'm assuming it was at TC and J Did we go from being a multi
• 35:44
  coach to a more distance focused coach?
• 35:48
  Yeah, so right from the beginning, you know I did maybe
• 35:50
  a little bit surprising, but believe it or not, growing up I
• 35:52
  did run Rd. races and such and I ran the 800 at the state meat
• 35:55
  level. So I had run some middle
• 35:57
  distance and I actually was relatively competitive in Rd.
• 36:00
  racing, although I didn't run racing cross country.
• 36:03
  So I have a little bit of a distance flare to me anyways.
• 36:06
  But then right away at TCNGI started coaching distance.
• 36:09
  So when I showed up in the fall I did kind of assist the head
• 36:12
  coach for that first year and by the 2nd year I was the cross
• 36:15
  country coach. So you know as the only full
• 36:18
  time coach I was coaching cross country and and sort of loved it
• 36:21
  and then got some great people to work with me.
• 36:24
  But as my career evolved at TCNJI, called myself the utility
• 36:27
  person I would move as needed. So there are years I coached the
• 36:31
  sprinters. There were definitely I usually
• 36:33
  coach the job in the pole vault like I would move around, but I
• 36:36
  did coach distance on a real consistent basis through my
• 36:39
  years at TCNJ. So you know did have the
• 36:41
  background and did enjoy it. I love the process like and one
• 36:45
  of the things that's cool about middle distance distance running
• 36:47
  is you can really take it to another level over time with
• 36:50
  hard work. And I really enjoy that process
• 36:53
  of middle distance distance running.
• 36:55
  But where I made the shift full time towards it was actually
• 36:57
  that next step in my career. So I'd had success with middle
• 36:59
  distance distance along with other events at TCNJ.
• 37:02
  But TCNJ is in a very close proximity to Princeton and I
• 37:06
  think the success we experienced there was noted And when Mike
• 37:09
  Brady who is the head cross country coach and assistant
• 37:12
  coach at Princeton retired Fred Samara.
• 37:14
  Actually I was really honored. He reached out and said hey
• 37:17
  would you be interested in this position And I was loving.
• 37:20
  TCNJ wasn't necessarily actually looking for applying for jobs.
• 37:23
  But when he reached out and said would you want to take a shot at
• 37:26
  coaching in the Ivy League and and work with me at Princeton, I
• 37:29
  I had to take the opportunity. So Princeton was the first time
• 37:32
  I ever focused myself completely on middle distance, distance
• 37:34
  coaching. And boy it was a it was a great
• 37:37
  run. We were fortunate to have a
• 37:39
  great run both at the conference level and and and somewhat at
• 37:41
  the national level and I got to coach some special people in
• 37:44
  those years at Princeton. But I think by then that became
• 37:47
  my specialty, my identity. And then when I came to Penn as
• 37:51
  the Director of track, I stayed in that in that event group
• 37:54
  because I really felt comfortable and and established
• 37:56
  my niche in in coaching and recruiting in middle distance
• 37:58
  distance. But I still love all the events.
• 38:00
  So that's what's fun. At the track meets.
• 38:01
  I feel at least somewhat comfortable and qualified when I
• 38:05
  walk around and watch everybody compete, which I I still love.
• 38:08
  I love busting myths. And here's a myth of You know,
• 38:11
  the myth is the distance Coaches only care about distance running
• 38:14
  and only care about the 10K on the track.
• 38:16
  And yeah, long jumpers y'all do your thing.
• 38:18
  I I love this distance coach here.
• 38:19
  That is like going around to the long jump in the throws and the
• 38:22
  sprints and hurdles and not only liking it like you know want to
• 38:26
  watch and and see the kids compete but knows a lot about it
• 38:31
  and how to coach it and even how to how to do it.
• 38:33
  I like that I've never made this connection before and I've
• 38:37
  actually never really coached these two event groups.
• 38:39
  So Steve, correct me if I'm kind of wild in this idea.
• 38:44
  I I guess I've never thought about the relationship of the
• 38:48
  multi events in distance events in the the the likeness of the
• 38:53
  results of it based on training. So in distance events I know
• 38:57
  there's a lot of, you know whether you're doing quarter
• 39:00
  repeats or mile repeats. You know depending on the what
• 39:02
  your final event is, you know you're always looking at how
• 39:05
  does that culminate in the in the totality of what their 10K
• 39:08
  is going to end up being or their 5K.
• 39:10
  There's a lot of math kind of involved into it from what I've
• 39:13
  seen, you know distance coaches that I've been around before the
• 39:17
  decathlon, very similar. I mean you know nutso's on math
• 39:20
  on, you know, well if I scored this in the 100, I need this in
• 39:23
  the long. I mean, there's a lot for the
• 39:24
  table. I don't know if I've ever really
• 39:28
  thought about that relationship of the coaching side of those
• 39:30
  two event groups and just how the process really drives the
• 39:35
  final result. Yeah.
• 39:37
  Well, I've really fallen in love with, I love coaching middle
• 39:39
  distance, distance, and I do really love that process I
• 39:42
  described to you. So again, you asked me very at
• 39:44
  the beginning when did you become a student of the sport?
• 39:46
  And you know, I love digging in and you know, I'm certainly not
• 39:48
  a scientist, but I love trying to figure out and understand the
• 39:51
  Physiology of it. You know, like, you know, what
• 39:53
  does it mean? You know that the oxygen, you
• 39:55
  know getting the box into the muscles it needs, how much
• 39:57
  lactate and all those types of things and sort of understanding
• 40:00
  things like like you said paces or heart rate levels or lactate,
• 40:04
  like that's very interesting to me.
• 40:06
  So you know, again, I'm 32 years into this, but from a very long
• 40:09
  time ago I started trying to figure it out, like what works,
• 40:11
  you know, how does the body respond to different stimuluses?
• 40:14
  And I really enjoyed the distance running and I've been
• 40:16
  really fortunate, you know, all the way from 800 through the 10K
• 40:19
  to really have coached some very talented and dedicated athletes
• 40:22
  that have, you know, honestly been able to compete at at least
• 40:25
  the NS, AA level and A and a few beyond.
• 40:27
  I mean, you know, at Princeton, I was honored to coach Don
• 40:29
  Cabral who finished 8th at the Olympic Games after senior year
• 40:32
  at Princeton. He won the NS, AA's and just
• 40:34
  some really special people and certainly quite a few sub four
• 40:37
  minute Millers. I know that's become more
• 40:38
  commonplace but when I started coaching sub four minute Millers
• 40:41
  it was certainly quite hard to do.
• 40:44
  But you know, I just loved it and I just love watching people
• 40:47
  get better. And you know some of my favorite
• 40:48
  coaching stories are the people, you know, that ran, you know,
• 40:51
  420 in high school, that break for, you know, 4 minutes in
• 40:53
  college And I've had some of those experiences.
• 40:56
  I just love that process. And the decathlon part that I
• 40:59
  think has helped me too is you know, coaching is multi tiered.
• 41:02
  So yeah, everyone can sort of, you know, no one talks about how
• 41:05
  many miles do you run or what type of interval workouts do you
• 41:08
  do. And those are certainly key
• 41:10
  pieces, but they're all the little things that are part of
• 41:12
  coaching, which is like, what are you doing for strength
• 41:15
  training? Are you doing any plyometrics?
• 41:16
  Is there speed development involved?
• 41:19
  You know, what are you doing from a flexibility, coordination
• 41:21
  standpoint, like all the variables of being a great
• 41:24
  athlete and and how do all those things fit into trying to stay
• 41:26
  healthy as a distance runner? So I think one of my strengths
• 41:29
  has been iconic called the training puzzle.
• 41:32
  Like obviously I have to have a sense of how many miles and what
• 41:34
  types of workouts and that. But maybe one of my strengths
• 41:37
  because of my decathlon mindset is the puzzle.
• 41:40
  How do you put where do hurdle walkovers fit in?
• 41:42
  How do you know running drills, are they done properly Like all
• 41:46
  those little pieces I think have been one of the things that have
• 41:48
  really helped me, you know, in working with athletes, trying to
• 41:51
  make them the best athletes and and being healthy.
• 41:53
  So I I definitely don't shy away from my decathlon experience
• 41:57
  being significantly helpful in my distance coaching.
• 41:59
  Where you know you have a business background, a sports
• 42:02
  administration, sports business Masters type area.
• 42:05
  No, no, you haven't talked about any propensity for exercise
• 42:08
  Physiology and biology as as academia study, certainly now as
• 42:12
  coaching. Where, where does the role of
• 42:15
  coaching education play for you as you're moving through TC and
• 42:19
  J and you know Princeton and Alpen where you a USATF guy?
• 42:24
  You know, back when we first started we didn't have, we
• 42:26
  didn't even have YouTube. We used to have those VHS videos
• 42:28
  that you know we'd get from USATF where we'd have flip
• 42:31
  books. You know, it's definitely grown
• 42:33
  and leaps and bounds in coaching education.
• 42:34
  How is that coaching education played a role, if at all, for
• 42:38
  for you? Yeah, I mean, I I could list a
• 42:41
  million mentors. Some of that are people that
• 42:43
  I've talked to and met and others that are videotapes and
• 42:46
  books that I've read. But I think my coaching is
• 42:48
  definitely a, you know, come from a lot of different sources
• 42:52
  and and what do I feel comfortable with?
• 42:53
  But yeah, I did everything you just described him.
• 42:55
  And I have, I don't know how to view them anymore, but I have,
• 42:58
  you know, 30 or 40 videotapes someplace that I've watched a
• 43:01
  million times. I can quote them, like, like I
• 43:03
  can quote a funny movie. And I've also read, you know all
• 43:06
  the different books that were out there of different people's
• 43:08
  training thoughts. And then also just been some
• 43:11
  great coaches. I mean, you know, some of the
• 43:12
  veteran coaches that have, you know, been great to me.
• 43:14
  You know, Tom Donnelly coach at Haverford locally.
• 43:17
  I remember sitting down with him as a young coach and and picking
• 43:19
  his brain and you know, Frank Agliana picked his brain and and
• 43:24
  and many others that, you know, I've been kind as coaches to sit
• 43:27
  with me individually as a as a young coach and and sort of
• 43:30
  explain to me what they do. And I could name many others but
• 43:33
  you know I so yeah, I've I've studied a lot just to try to
• 43:36
  figure it out and I guess what it is IA little from everybody,
• 43:39
  right. I I wouldn't say that I'm
• 43:41
  strictly A Lidiard coach. I'm strictly a what Sebastian
• 43:45
  Coe did or you know there's you know Jack Daniels or all these
• 43:48
  different legends. I've read them all and I try to
• 43:50
  figure out which of those make sense for what I'm doing.
• 43:52
  You know and and with the athletes I'm coaching.
• 43:55
  But, but yeah, I mean, definitely a lot of people have
• 43:59
  influenced what I'm doing with my coaching.
• 44:01
  You know, COVID has changed a lot of things in regards to
• 44:04
  peer-to-peer. So to me, there's coaching.
• 44:06
  Education is 2 things. I call it formal and informal.
• 44:08
  Formal is the USATF level ones and twos and now, you know,
• 44:12
  USTFCA with their great coaching education, Altis, etcetera.
• 44:16
  And then there's peer-to-peer. You talking about, you know, you
• 44:18
  sitting down with Gags or Jack Daniels and having a
• 44:22
  conversation and talking about maybe specific examples.
• 44:25
  And COVID kind of changed things where we learned that you know
• 44:28
  Zoom and you know now I can call up and you know or watch
• 44:32
  webinars of almost anybody in all events pre COVID, at least
• 44:38
  on my perception, it felt like distance coaches were better at
• 44:44
  talking to each other and quote UN quote sharing secrets and and
• 44:47
  other event groups maybe were not as much.
• 44:50
  You know there was more of like you know, I have a secret the
• 44:52
  way I coach throwers or jumpers or sprinters.
• 44:54
  So I'm going to keep that to myself but now it certainly
• 44:56
  seems, I mean I don't know it feels like everybody's talking
• 45:00
  to everybody and sharing quote, UN quote every secrets it is and
• 45:04
  you know you're not really coming from the distance
• 45:06
  background now. You know I'm thinking about it's
• 45:08
  like you know like you came up as a distance guided distance
• 45:10
  coach right off the bat. You've had the, you know the
• 45:13
  multi background. Has the formal been more
• 45:18
  influential or the what I call the informal, the peer-to-peer
• 45:22
  been more influential on your coaching education and your
• 45:24
  coaching style therefore? Yeah, I mean it's a combination
• 45:27
  of the two and I did the USA Coaches Association sort of
• 45:30
  level one training and some of those things.
• 45:33
  And you know I've I did a strength training session more
• 45:35
  recently with Boo who's sort of known as an expert in strength
• 45:38
  training. And so I've done the and
• 45:40
  continue to do going to clinics and listen to people and making
• 45:44
  notes and and I still enjoy that sort of formal kind of training
• 45:48
  education stuff. And then I'm certainly you know
• 45:50
  reading books isn't as popular as going on your phone anymore
• 45:53
  Internet. But I I did read a lot of books
• 45:54
  over the years. And then frankly, like you said,
• 45:57
  I I wasn't shy about asking coaches that were doing
• 45:59
  impressive things to say, hey, do you mind if if we sit down
• 46:02
  and have a cup of coffee or do you mind talking to me?
• 46:04
  And you'd be surprised how many coaches are willing to open up
• 46:06
  to you in that situation if you ask them.
• 46:09
  And I was honored that, you know, like I said, a few people
• 46:11
  that I, I, I see in the highest esteem or like, hey, I'm glad to
• 46:14
  meet with you and talk about that.
• 46:16
  So it's it's pretty neat and you know, and it always evolves,
• 46:18
  right? Like you know, I think back when
• 46:20
  I started coaching, you know at that point everyone's like hey
• 46:22
  distance runs, we've got to run a lot of event quality
• 46:24
  intervals. And I there's still nothing's
• 46:26
  more important than event specific work.
• 46:28
  So intervals definitely have their place but then I think
• 46:30
  it's evolved in destroying everyone.
• 46:31
  Realize that hey a lot of stuff in this sort of different zones
• 46:34
  of threshold level running is, is is really important for your
• 46:38
  development and a little less injury potential and that became
• 46:41
  very popular and has been popular more recently.
• 46:43
  Obviously some things that Ingebritson has done with maybe
• 46:46
  some double sessions in a singular day has become real
• 46:48
  popular. So it's been fun to watch and
• 46:50
  evolve for me over the last three decades and I just try to
• 46:54
  figure out hey what works for us and and what new things might I
• 46:56
  try and and but it's a lot of a lot of people are influencing
• 47:00
  what I'm trying to do and I think it's great you know so
• 47:02
  much more. You can find so much more now
• 47:04
  online than you ever could when you and I started this.
• 47:07
  You know our our professional careers.
• 47:10
  It's it's there's really like almost no excuse now.
• 47:12
  We we had excuses back when we first started.
• 47:15
  Now it's like, how do you not trip over coaching education,
• 47:18
  Open up a social media, Internet, YouTube, etcetera?
• 47:23
  What would you consider yourself?
• 47:24
  A reader? You talked about books a couple
• 47:26
  times. Are you?
• 47:26
  Are you a reader or? I I think, I feel like now maybe
• 47:29
  I'm. I feel like it sounds funny.
• 47:31
  I feel like I might have become too busy to be a reader.
• 47:33
  So I would say not so much more recently but I think in earlier
• 47:36
  in my coaching career like that's a lot of the resources
• 47:38
  were right. It was hard copy books and I
• 47:40
  would go get them all and read them.
• 47:41
  But I think more recently I'm probably like everyone else I'm
• 47:44
  I'm doing more of my research maybe on my computer and online,
• 47:47
  but I guess I'm reading a lot. Maybe it's just not physical
• 47:49
  books. It's it's not a computer.
• 47:51
  But but you know, life has gotten busy.
• 47:53
  But I, you know, I and I think the key thing too is there's a
• 47:55
  lot of things out there you have to decide to think as a coach.
• 47:58
  You know, I know we're sort of talking more about training, but
• 48:00
  like what really works for you and your athletes, right?
• 48:03
  Like, you know, I it's great to see what a world record holder
• 48:05
  just did. But you know I'm hosting a high
• 48:07
  school sophomore. Like does that high school
• 48:09
  software, is that the right workout?
• 48:10
  And I think the key for coaches is to figure out which bits and
• 48:13
  pieces of all the information work for your athletes at their
• 48:17
  point at yours program and at that time in their development.
• 48:20
  And I'm trying to do that at Penn.
• 48:21
  Like, you know, Penn's different.
• 48:22
  I've got pretty young athletes relative to college scene and
• 48:26
  you know, this is what we're doing at Penn, you know.
• 48:28
  So it it might be different, you know, than other college
• 48:32
  programs or what the pros are doing.
• 48:33
  Right. OK.
• 48:35
  I'd love to ask this question. You went from TC and J to
• 48:39
  Princeton. You weren't an Ivy League guy
• 48:42
  yourself. Although Saint Thomas is pretty
• 48:44
  good academically. I know it'll surprise you,
• 48:46
  Steve. I also was not an Ivy League guy
• 48:49
  growing up. So we have these perceptions of
• 48:50
  the Ivy League because we're on the outside, and usually the
• 48:54
  perceptions are pretty all positive.
• 48:55
  Like, holy crap, it's, you know, Geniusville, USA and all this
• 48:58
  kind of stuff. Any intimidation from you, you
• 49:01
  go to to Princeton. I mean one of the top
• 49:04
  institutions around me. I mean come on, you, you, if you
• 49:07
  get into Princeton, Bravo, you graduate from Princeton.
• 49:09
  Oh my God. Like how?
• 49:10
  I mean it's just a quite a quite amazing you're with Fred Samara
• 49:14
  one of the greatest people in the whole world.
• 49:15
  By the way recently you retired. Love him to death.
• 49:18
  Any intimidation for you in regards to holy crap I got to go
• 49:22
  coach these guys who are all you know 35 AC, TS and our future,
• 49:27
  you know nuclear physicists and all this kind of stuff.
• 49:30
  Any intimidation at all from your side as a as a coach to the
• 49:33
  athlete? Yeah, I think when I started you
• 49:36
  know I mean Princeton and Penn you know very similar in terms
• 49:38
  of their, you know the students are high achievers academically
• 49:41
  and they're certainly smart and and and we are fortunate at
• 49:44
  places like Penn and Princeton to be able to recruit you know
• 49:47
  very talented high school athletes that are very driven.
• 49:50
  So I think the type of personality that I was seeing at
• 49:52
  Princeton and I certainly see now at Penn is that highly
• 49:55
  motivated you know want to be an achiever type person.
• 49:59
  But I think the key thing when I started coaching Ivy League was
• 50:01
  I just want to make sure I did is the best job I could to
• 50:04
  understand and help people sort of chase their potential.
• 50:07
  I advise you the slogan and coaching have fun chasing your
• 50:09
  potential. So A at Princeton, I did the
• 50:12
  same thing I did at TC and J and I do the same thing at Penn is
• 50:14
  try to set up an atmosphere that like everyone's trying to chase
• 50:18
  their potential, whatever that may be.
• 50:19
  And I also try to sell the concept.
• 50:21
  It's fun to chase your potential, It's fun to go for
• 50:23
  it. I've been using those statements
• 50:25
  for 30 plus years now. So that part of coaching, like
• 50:28
  chasing your potential, having fun going for that didn't
• 50:30
  change. I think I just worked really
• 50:32
  hard, you know, to sort of I felt like you always feel like
• 50:34
  you have to prove yourself right.
• 50:35
  So we had a lot of success, a lot of fun at TCNJ but I felt
• 50:39
  like I did have to prove myself in Division One and coaching
• 50:42
  distance that like I could help people get to that potential.
• 50:45
  But I was fortunate, you know there was a lot of buy in right
• 50:47
  away from the athletes and you know I I think the difference
• 50:50
  was if I coached someone that ran 425 or 430 down to 410.
• 50:54
  Now I'm coaching some of the ran 410 and we're trying to break 4
• 50:56
  minutes. Like the the equation was the
• 50:58
  same but I did work hard to make sure I got to know the athletes
• 51:02
  and and that sort of there was a good rapport in terms of
• 51:06
  believing in the training. So I mean there was a little bit
• 51:08
  but you know you know great student athletes and I had great
• 51:11
  students out to TC and J too They they wanted to be the best
• 51:14
  you know the best outlets they could be and I coached some
• 51:16
  great ones there. So it honestly didn't feel that
• 51:18
  different. I mean I yes this I would be
• 51:20
  lying if I didn't say at first I was anxious and want to make
• 51:24
  sure I did a good job and and sort of like working really hard
• 51:27
  to prove that I could and do the best by the athletes.
• 51:30
  But it really wasn't a lot different at Princeton as TC and
• 51:34
  J and that certainly hasn't been any different at Penn in terms
• 51:36
  of what I'm trying to do. And so it's, it's been pretty,
• 51:39
  you know, pretty smooth in that part.
• 51:41
  Yeah you know made you made a great point there about and and
• 51:46
  they're certainly driven kids in every school but maybe the
• 51:49
  percentage of I mean super driven kids maybe goes up as
• 51:53
  into into an Ivy League school. Do you did you and and still
• 51:56
  today find yourself with that with with a greater percentage
• 52:01
  of you know super driven kids and and not just athletically
• 52:04
  we're talking about here in all their aspects academically
• 52:07
  etcetera. Do you find yourself you more
• 52:09
  have to pull the bridle back Like I I think in distance
• 52:14
  running you know, you you obviously prescribe you know
• 52:16
  what we're doing on the track and the total mileages in your
• 52:19
  long run do you find yourself you have to make sure they're
• 52:22
  not. You know we said 60 miles this
• 52:24
  week can't be doing 70. We said long run was going to be
• 52:28
  I'm making up numbers here 10 miles don't be going out and
• 52:32
  doing 12. Like, do you feel like you have
• 52:34
  to almost, like, pull them back to save themselves and make sure
• 52:38
  they're right, they're doing the right training?
• 52:41
  Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on
• 52:43
  the head. I think that's a little bit true
• 52:44
  of all aspects of their life, right?
• 52:45
  So a lot of the people that have come into Penn and Ivy League
• 52:48
  schools, you know, they're they're sort of like used to
• 52:51
  being sort of high achievers academically and athletically.
• 52:54
  And I think they're willing to put in as much work as it takes
• 52:56
  or they perceive it takes to do that.
• 52:58
  So whether it's getting into a good life cycle where you know
• 53:01
  you're you're studying and sleeping and eating and training
• 53:03
  at the right proportions, that's definitely an adjustment when
• 53:06
  you come into a place like Penn that we we work with and that's
• 53:09
  certainly, you know if you then take it just to the training
• 53:11
  piece, yeah, there's that. It's almost funny.
• 53:14
  It's like I said my mentality was more must be better.
• 53:16
  So it's almost like I learned from myself that you know more
• 53:19
  is not always better because you can run out of gas right so or
• 53:23
  get injured. So yeah I definitely think that
• 53:25
  you know helping students grow in that of like how do you plan
• 53:30
  your day and how much is the right amount for you to be
• 53:33
  healthy and successful. That's definitely a role that my
• 53:36
  coaches the coaches on our staff and myself play in trying to
• 53:39
  mentor. But yeah, they're they're
• 53:41
  they're highly motivated and but but again that's it's also why
• 53:44
  people do special things, right? Because they're willing to to
• 53:47
  work as hard as it takes to to get the job done.
• 53:49
  So. Yeah, you know, the athletic and
• 53:51
  the athletic and academic preparation doesn't really.
• 53:53
  It's not really copacetic Right on on academics.
• 53:56
  If I read more, study more, I should do better on my test and
• 54:00
  have more knowledge. But as a distance runner if
• 54:03
  coach tells me you know 60 miles, well I'll do 70, then
• 54:07
  that's that's not necessarily a recipe for success.
• 54:09
  That's could be a recipe for injury.
• 54:11
  Which leads us you know to the to the lack of success there.
• 54:14
  It's it's really about listening to the coach and knowing that
• 54:17
  you guys are on the right path of building up to whatever
• 54:19
  eventual mileage you get to. But so I can see those two
• 54:22
  being, you know, Ying and Yang on and super motivated
• 54:26
  individual who has their own pressures as well.
• 54:28
  By the way, I have to assume you're, you're in Princeton and
• 54:31
  Penn, you're sitting around a room full of other geniuses.
• 54:35
  It's like, oh crap, I better like what got me here ain't
• 54:38
  going to keep me here. So I better continue.
• 54:40
  And so the same thing on the track.
• 54:41
  I ran 410 and I'm here. Well, guess what, Everybody and
• 54:44
  their brother runs 4 flat now. Well, I better step that game up
• 54:47
  too. So it's kind of a it's a great
• 54:49
  pull, but you got to be careful of not overextending past that
• 54:52
  pull until the right time. So yeah, it's interesting.
• 54:56
  So why go from Princeton, you know, an amazing school and
• 55:00
  campus for a lot of different aspects.
• 55:03
  And go to Penn another, you know, it's hard to, you know,
• 55:06
  compare Ivy League schools because they're all such just at
• 55:08
  a high, super level. Why go from Princeton to Penn?
• 55:12
  Yeah, boy, Penn was a special opportunity.
• 55:14
  So first of all, I knowledge from a family standpoint in a
• 55:16
  second. So I've been very poor to my
• 55:18
  wife, Nicole, you know, she's been great and as you know,
• 55:21
  coaches put a lot of hours and and passion.
• 55:23
  It's not really a nine to five job.
• 55:25
  It's a lifestyle job. So I acknowledge my wife Nicole
• 55:27
  has been amazing in supporting my career and and sort of been
• 55:31
  around for it to help me. She was actually a track and
• 55:33
  field athlete. She ran at Wagner College, was
• 55:34
  1/2 mile. So she has a running background.
• 55:38
  So understands kind of what I'm trying to do.
• 55:39
  So I I acknowledge that and one of the big drawers actually for
• 55:42
  the opportunity is I'm really fortunate to have coached at 3
• 55:44
  outstanding universities and really been in the same general
• 55:47
  area. So you know, and that's not
• 55:49
  always possible, but I was a little bit lucky that I didn't
• 55:51
  really have to move and I have two, two sons.
• 55:53
  My one son Tim actually is actually just graduated from
• 55:57
  Penn two years ago and and got his master's at Providence
• 56:00
  College and actually working in New York now.
• 56:01
  But Tim ran middle distance for us at Penn.
• 56:03
  So that was a cool experience. And my younger son Sean is in
• 56:06
  his last year as a graduate student at Villanova and and
• 56:09
  running, you know, well in middle distance running.
• 56:11
  So like it's been a bit of a family affair And the reason I
• 56:14
  bring that up is Penn was the perfect place for me because
• 56:17
  I've been coming to Penn release for years and thought wow,
• 56:20
  Franklin Field, the Penn Relays, I enjoy Philadelphia.
• 56:24
  I just the vibe and energy around this place was always
• 56:26
  attractive to me. And then when I had the
• 56:29
  opportunity you know to sort of say hey you can be the director
• 56:31
  of track and field at Penn and sort of I think Penn's just an
• 56:34
  incredible opportunity A to coach these great student
• 56:39
  athletes at a place that track has a rich history was really
• 56:42
  attractive to me. And then also what we're trying
• 56:43
  to do at at Penn and and I think hopefully we'll have seen that,
• 56:46
  but you know Franklin fields historic with Penn Relays, but
• 56:49
  we're also honored to be hosting other meets in the summertime at
• 56:52
  Franklin Field and things like that.
• 56:54
  And what we haven't talked about yet is next fall we're opening
• 56:57
  the Dave and Jane's Center for track and field, a 200 meter
• 57:01
  banked into a track and field facility open next fall, which
• 57:04
  we're going to be able to host some great things for the sport
• 57:06
  there. So I just feel like Penn to me
• 57:09
  was this ultimate place for track and field on the East
• 57:11
  Coast where sky is absolutely the limit in terms of what the
• 57:14
  athletes can do, what we can do for the sport.
• 57:17
  I just thought wow, I can't believe I get an opportunity to
• 57:20
  go to you know and coach at Penn and to be the director of track,
• 57:22
  right. To be able to be a part of this
• 57:25
  kind of more global goal of of what we think we can do at Penn.
• 57:29
  So it was exciting and for me obviously frankly the the
• 57:32
  distance between these two schools is about 45 minutes.
• 57:35
  So it wasn't a major life life move to to to to to switch and
• 57:40
  start coaching at Penn. But I'm lucky to coach in the
• 57:42
  Ivy League. I was very fortunate to get the
• 57:44
  opportunity at Penn and and you know 12 years in and and it's
• 57:48
  great and I think the next decade will be even more
• 57:49
  exciting than the last decade what?
• 57:52
  Did you when you came into Penn, you know now you have.
• 57:56
  It's so funny compared that head coaching director job to your
• 57:59
  very first one your third year second, third year in what you
• 58:03
  know you're you're. We're an amalgamation of our
• 58:05
  experiences with big heapings of what our mentors and people
• 58:10
  along the way have poured into us.
• 58:12
  And I usually focus a lot on the mentors of like coaches that
• 58:16
  have helped us. You know the people that you
• 58:18
  talked to during your peer-to-peer type coaching
• 58:20
  education. But also we have as coaches
• 58:24
  mentors of administrators and and outside people with you know
• 58:28
  it's through church and things like that.
• 58:29
  So you're you're this just really you're just this
• 58:31
  amalgamation of a lot of different people and experiences
• 58:34
  pouring into you. What?
• 58:36
  How did you attack being the head coach at Penn differently
• 58:40
  than you know? And it's really a softball
• 58:43
  question, Steve, because your first head coaching job was as a
• 58:45
  2 year old coaching. How did you attack it
• 58:48
  differently using all those experiences, mentors, people
• 58:51
  that poured into you through TCNJ, Princeton, now heading to
• 58:56
  Philadelphia, right? Well, I think the first thing
• 58:59
  was, you know, to be honest with you.
• 59:00
  So I sort of feel like I'd sort of done the job that I was going
• 59:03
  to have to do at Penn initially at TCNJ, like because like I
• 59:07
  love the atmosphere we had there.
• 59:08
  We did have full teams, men and women and we were competing at
• 59:11
  the national level and it was 100 plus athletes and we did
• 59:15
  have a great staff. They might have been part time
• 59:16
  coaches, but they were great. So I felt like a lot of the team
• 59:19
  pieces, I felt like that was the template.
• 59:21
  Like I felt like I'd done it before and maybe a little bit
• 59:24
  different. At least in my time at
• 59:25
  Princeton, the men's and women's programs were kind of separate
• 59:27
  programs. There wasn't a combined model.
• 59:29
  So at Penn I was actually able to go back to something that I
• 59:32
  had felt was successful in my years at TC and J.
• 59:34
  So that was the coaching part. And then I was also really
• 59:37
  fortunate when I came to Penn. We had some great administrative
• 59:40
  support. Penn made a big commitment to
• 59:42
  Penn's to track and field like we have a rich history, but that
• 59:46
  was the first time they've ever combined their program, made a
• 59:47
  director position and I think that you know the alumni were
• 59:51
  passionate about trying to set Penn up for success.
• 59:54
  So our alumni have been very supportive and our
• 59:56
  administrative have been very supportive.
• 59:57
  So we've added some coaching positions.
• 59:59
  We've upgraded our facilities, just it just keeps the I feel
• 1:00:03
  like the ball's rolling down a hill and getting bigger from the
• 1:00:06
  support that has been given and I've been lucky to receive at
• 1:00:09
  Penn to do what we're doing so. But Alana Shanahan, I want to
• 1:00:14
  acknowledge, she's our current athletic director.
• 1:00:16
  When I was first hired, she was actually the person did the
• 1:00:18
  search. At that time.
• 1:00:19
  She was the associate athletic director, kind of like #2 in
• 1:00:22
  command. Steve Bilski was the athletic
• 1:00:24
  director. But Alana was the one that kind
• 1:00:27
  of led the interviewing process when I came to Penn and was the
• 1:00:30
  administrator I worked with my first few years.
• 1:00:32
  But her support in those years of helping us with the
• 1:00:35
  recruiting process and admissions process and and our
• 1:00:39
  facility needs like she just she made a commitment and and the
• 1:00:42
  alums jumped on board and made a big commitment and now she's our
• 1:00:45
  athletic director running the program.
• 1:00:47
  So I think her and our alums have made this our success and I
• 1:00:51
  think what will be our future success possible.
• 1:00:54
  So I mean it's a little bit, the only thing that's different at
• 1:00:56
  Penn is there's a bigger, broader responsibility with
• 1:01:00
  maybe alumni relations and sort of hosting events and things
• 1:01:04
  like that. But the the meat and potatoes of
• 1:01:06
  the team part is not that different than it was at TCNJ.
• 1:01:10
  Thanks for bringing that up about administration because it
• 1:01:12
  it is a night and day atmosphere when you have an administration
• 1:01:17
  that supports you and specifically your sport for
• 1:01:20
  track and field versus well that you're just part of the athletic
• 1:01:23
  department. It is night and day when you see
• 1:01:26
  in fact it. As much as I believe in the
• 1:01:29
  power of coaches and and what you guys do as far as success of
• 1:01:32
  your team, I'm willing to bet if I go look at the top 20 of every
• 1:01:38
  NCAA championship, those are probably the better
• 1:01:41
  administrative supported programs and it's more of an
• 1:01:45
  outlier that an AD or administration tolerates the
• 1:01:48
  track team and they succeed you. You've got to have buy in and
• 1:01:52
  support from that administration.
• 1:01:54
  It it makes everything easier, everything easier.
• 1:01:57
  Yeah, I mean, I've been very fortunate I think about my
• 1:01:59
  career when I started, you know, TCNJI was the Director of OPS,
• 1:02:02
  right? Of course I booked all the trips
• 1:02:03
  and buses and stuff. Well, I'm fortunate now and
• 1:02:05
  again I'm lucky because not everybody has this, but I have a
• 1:02:08
  great Director of Operations and they have an intern that helps
• 1:02:10
  them, right. And same thing like I used to
• 1:02:12
  share an athletic trainer but I'm very fortunate Penn.
• 1:02:15
  We have a dedicated track and field athletic trainer and they
• 1:02:17
  have an assistant. So I know that I'm really
• 1:02:19
  fortunate because I am in I'm in a situation here that's now in
• 1:02:22
  that small percentage that have the most resources and support.
• 1:02:27
  But I would encourage all the coaches out there you know to be
• 1:02:29
  creative and how can you find a way to to do things.
• 1:02:32
  Is there you know student managers you can add to your
• 1:02:34
  lineup is there interns you could get to help like how do
• 1:02:38
  you do it and I think that's what we try to do.
• 1:02:39
  When I was at TCNJ, we didn't have maybe the funding to have
• 1:02:43
  as many staff members and stuff, but we, we were trying to be
• 1:02:45
  creative and how do we build out our team to cover everything
• 1:02:50
  without the same resources. But you're right, I think you're
• 1:02:53
  having administrative support and in our case at Penn alumni
• 1:02:56
  support and those things are are are very we're very fortunate.
• 1:03:00
  Let's turn our attention to this duality of the Director of track
• 1:03:04
  and field at Penn. So coaching events and having a
• 1:03:08
  staff that coaches throws and jumps and the all the trek meets
• 1:03:12
  you go to and conference and nationals things like that And
• 1:03:14
  then you you know a lot of institutions host meets and
• 1:03:19
  certainly a lot of institutions every so year you know where
• 1:03:23
  it's five or ten years host a big meet like their conference
• 1:03:25
  meet or something like that and some you know we keep getting
• 1:03:28
  smaller and smaller number of programs we'll host an NCAA
• 1:03:31
  championship. You know, again, lots of people
• 1:03:33
  come into your area, lots more to do than just, you know,
• 1:03:37
  schedule. What time is the 100 meter dash?
• 1:03:40
  You also have the pen relays, the largest I assume number of
• 1:03:44
  participants and coaches and everything going on track meet
• 1:03:47
  every year. When you first got there,
• 1:03:50
  legendary Dave Johnson was the director of Pen Relays.
• 1:03:53
  What was your role during that time as it relates to the pen
• 1:03:57
  relays? Did you just show up in coach or
• 1:04:00
  did you have any kind of administration actually helping
• 1:04:02
  with the meet? What was that role when Dave
• 1:04:05
  Johnson was overseeing pen Relays?
• 1:04:08
  Yeah, I mean, no, you mentioned he's a legend, right?
• 1:04:10
  So Dave Johnson was the director of Pedro and Relays for a long
• 1:04:13
  time. He succeeded Tim Baker.
• 1:04:15
  Like there's just an amazing list of directors of the pan
• 1:04:18
  Relays. So I mean it was definitely Dave
• 1:04:21
  was running that event and and did a great job and and and and
• 1:04:24
  something that we've been doing for, you know, for for over well
• 1:04:27
  over 100 years. So amazing.
• 1:04:29
  So I say my role in those first years is, if anything, I was
• 1:04:32
  just trying to be helpful if Dave needed any consulting from
• 1:04:34
  the coaches perspective. OK.
• 1:04:36
  So I mean you know he would make all Penn Relays decisions
• 1:04:39
  sometimes he would inquire and I could sort of add perspective or
• 1:04:42
  help but but no I didn't have direct responsibilities per SE
• 1:04:48
  And our staff has always helped with the Penn Relays whether it
• 1:04:51
  was you know once we get to the meet whether it's executing
• 1:04:54
  distance night or I did help put together the elite mile field.
• 1:04:57
  You know so we would all play roles in helping with the Penn
• 1:05:00
  Relays but the build up to the Penn Relays was was the Penn
• 1:05:02
  Relays Dave Johnson in his office and you know and and then
• 1:05:06
  honestly you know upon Dave's retirement when I was named the
• 1:05:09
  director of the Penn realized our our staffing alignment has
• 1:05:11
  changed. I I I might mentioned I'm very
• 1:05:13
  fortunate I think we've taken a bit more of a team approach to
• 1:05:15
  it. So in the end you know in terms
• 1:05:18
  of big picture items is our schedule and recruiting of
• 1:05:22
  college teams and professional events and some of those things
• 1:05:25
  I I am quite involved with that aspect of the meet but when you
• 1:05:28
  dive down to the officials that really are the the lifeblood
• 1:05:31
  make the meet. Happen, you know, all the
• 1:05:34
  entries and procedures that happened for high school and
• 1:05:36
  college and all those types of things.
• 1:05:38
  You know, Aaron Robinson is the associate director of the Penn
• 1:05:41
  Relays. We're fortunate to get him to
• 1:05:42
  come from the New York Armory to take on that job.
• 1:05:45
  He does a lot of the operational aspects.
• 1:05:47
  And then Claire Hewitt, who's both the director of track and
• 1:05:50
  field, director of track and field and the director of OPS
• 1:05:54
  for the Penn Relays, you know, she's amazing.
• 1:05:56
  So things relative to to meals and hotels and logistics like
• 1:06:01
  she does that and we just have a team really.
• 1:06:04
  And then I I would be ruminous not to mention now I have a
• 1:06:06
  great person Scott Ward is the associate author director that I
• 1:06:10
  work with now for Penn track and field.
• 1:06:12
  He's also the executive Director of the Penn Relays.
• 1:06:14
  So all things budget finance and the and sort of globally
• 1:06:18
  overseeing Penn Relays Scott Ward does those.
• 1:06:20
  So yes, I'm the director of the Penn Relays.
• 1:06:22
  Yes I have responsibilities. I'm proud to be a part of it.
• 1:06:24
  But I think what Dave Johns did what I did are different.
• 1:06:27
  We take we have a bit more of a team approach which is is really
• 1:06:30
  working well and I'm fortunate to have those people to work
• 1:06:32
  with. I met Claire that last
• 1:06:35
  December's USST. Yeah, USTFCCCA convention.
• 1:06:39
  She's awesome. You are lucky to have her.
• 1:06:41
  I know you know this, but lucky to have her on your staff.
• 1:06:44
  She was great. And then Aaron Robeson, we had
• 1:06:46
  on the podcast and really was struck by, you know, I've hosted
• 1:06:51
  meets. I've coaching SEC.
• 1:06:53
  You know, we had some pretty big meets there and things like
• 1:06:55
  that. You know, the logistics of
• 1:06:58
  schedule changes and things like that.
• 1:07:01
  For a regular amid as big as the SEC championships is really
• 1:07:04
  tough. It really struck me when Aaron
• 1:07:07
  and I were having a conversation.
• 1:07:08
  He mentioned something like, yeah, we wanted to move the
• 1:07:10
  girls 4x4 and the boys 4x4 because the girls had never run
• 1:07:13
  on on Friday or Saturday. I could be getting them mixed
• 1:07:15
  up. And it was like, oh, OK yeah,
• 1:07:17
  You just, I mean, I know you do a lot of heats, but yeah, you
• 1:07:19
  just switch them. And it was like, oh, no, no, no,
• 1:07:20
  no. The and you know Aaron, you
• 1:07:22
  know, you know him so well. He's so smart.
• 1:07:25
  You know, he's like, no, the average 4 by 4 for the girls
• 1:07:28
  team is X and the average for the boys is, you know, less than
• 1:07:31
  X. So you had to change just the
• 1:07:34
  the puzzle. I could see the like the the,
• 1:07:36
  the Beautiful mind puzzle pieces that have to move to move one of
• 1:07:40
  them. So really it gave me a lot of
• 1:07:43
  respect. When we're coaches or athletes
• 1:07:46
  or even just fans in the stands, we sometimes just think it.
• 1:07:49
  It just all happens and Oh my gosh, the amount of things that
• 1:07:53
  have to happen for it to just happen is mind boggling.
• 1:07:58
  What I'm curious about with you, you know and you experienced
• 1:08:02
  this at other, you know your other two stops and even early
• 1:08:06
  when you get to pin, you know being the director of track and
• 1:08:09
  field is a big job, Steve. You know we we use the the hats
• 1:08:14
  analogy. You know you wear a lot of hats.
• 1:08:16
  You know, obviously coaching itself and you know you
• 1:08:18
  mentioned you know it seems like that shrinks more and more,
• 1:08:22
  right with the amount of paperwork and all the things
• 1:08:25
  that change with Nils and all that stuff.
• 1:08:28
  You know, recruiter that's a that's a hat you wear.
• 1:08:32
  I don't necessarily want to say surrogate dad because you have
• 1:08:34
  kids that come from far but you know you're you're you're a
• 1:08:38
  support system for your kids that are coming from far and
• 1:08:40
  near being away from their families and that support system
• 1:08:43
  that they've had you know some places academic advisor I don't
• 1:08:48
  you know I have to assume maybe Penn has a unbelievably built
• 1:08:51
  out academic advising program but businessman you have to you
• 1:08:56
  have a budget that you have to set there's all these things you
• 1:08:58
  have to do as the director of track and field.
• 1:09:00
  It's it's really an impossible job to be real blunt.
• 1:09:03
  It really it really is and then you get this other impossible
• 1:09:07
  job to help oversee the Penn Relays.
• 1:09:12
  I mean, do you sleep? Do you just not coach anymore?
• 1:09:17
  I mean, something has to give. How are you able to meld to
• 1:09:22
  really full time over full time jobs and do them well?
• 1:09:29
  I I think the thing look at my career and I started with this
• 1:09:32
  and I think I've, you know if you sort of say what skills have
• 1:09:35
  you tried to work and grow throughout your career.
• 1:09:36
  And for me it's been like finding great people.
• 1:09:40
  If you can find great people and put them in places where they
• 1:09:43
  can be successful and honestly empower them.
• 1:09:45
  I mean I'm I'm trying all the time to find people that are as
• 1:09:48
  good or better, most cases better than I am at tasks and
• 1:09:52
  empower them to do it, you know? And I think that's the reality
• 1:09:54
  and I think all of us want things to be done right in the
• 1:09:57
  best way. And I know there's times in my
• 1:09:59
  career I feel like I try to hold on to things because I feel like
• 1:10:01
  I know how I want it to go. But I think I've tried really
• 1:10:04
  hard and the longer I get in my career, the more I try to figure
• 1:10:07
  out how do we identify people that can be successful or more
• 1:10:11
  creative or have the skill set and set them up for success and
• 1:10:15
  let them do it. So I think, I think that maybe
• 1:10:17
  is the key and I think I think more about that.
• 1:10:20
  You know, like how do I empower all these people and sort of set
• 1:10:24
  them up for success so we can succeed as a team And the Penn
• 1:10:27
  realizes it's incredible. We have these meetings.
• 1:10:29
  You know we get organized and we've got someone talking about
• 1:10:31
  corporate sponsors, someone talking about TV, someone
• 1:10:34
  talking about you know you know high school you know entries
• 1:10:38
  like it's just there's so many facets to it that you know even
• 1:10:42
  at Penn not just the Penn realized direct staff but Penn
• 1:10:44
  at large is an amazing department and that has embraced
• 1:10:48
  hosting the Penn Relays that I would say everyone has to pull
• 1:10:51
  an OR. I mean we have so many people
• 1:10:53
  you know the IT guy that makes sure that you know everyone gets
• 1:10:56
  Internet to where they need it on the field.
• 1:10:58
  And I mean it's just it's unlimited areas of
• 1:11:01
  responsibility. But again we have a lot of great
• 1:11:03
  people that know what they have to do and make it all happen for
• 1:11:06
  the Penn realize and like I said I'm proud to be a part of that
• 1:11:08
  and a part of the team. And you know we did try to do
• 1:11:11
  some things. So you know we we unfortunately
• 1:11:13
  didn't compete over COVID. So we we took a year off or two
• 1:11:16
  actually but we did everything we could over that time to think
• 1:11:20
  about how we improve and then grow.
• 1:11:23
  So the one thing I spent a lot of my time on there was talking
• 1:11:26
  to coaches and people and how what's the next evolution of the
• 1:11:29
  Penn Realize. And we have done some neat
• 1:11:31
  things the last few years, Mike. Like you know, we wanted the
• 1:11:33
  college women to have the opportunity to compete on Friday
• 1:11:36
  and Saturday just like the college men.
• 1:11:38
  So that was our first adjustment.
• 1:11:40
  Secondarily, this started as a collegiate meet.
• 1:11:42
  We want to make sure that those top tier college outlets are
• 1:11:45
  still highlighted in prime time on Friday and Saturday.
• 1:11:48
  We made sure we made that happen.
• 1:11:50
  People said it's hard to warm up at the Penn Relays because
• 1:11:52
  you're in the city. We found ways to make warm up
• 1:11:54
  better on the infield and stuff like that.
• 1:11:56
  Like we needed better seating for the for for athletes and
• 1:11:59
  access. We try to make like we just
• 1:12:01
  tried really hard in talking to coach some people and and Aaron
• 1:12:04
  and and Claire and Scott Ward and you know GAIL Zachary who's
• 1:12:07
  been with us a long time. Like we try to figure out how do
• 1:12:10
  we make this better. We're going to do that every
• 1:12:11
  year. We're just going to try to
• 1:12:12
  figure out how we can make it better.
• 1:12:13
  And that's the part I spent a lot of my time on.
• 1:12:17
  And like you said, the second evolution was how do we make
• 1:12:19
  sure that high school girls have the same access as high school
• 1:12:22
  boys. And and we found a way to make
• 1:12:24
  that happen and you know we're just trying to keep you know and
• 1:12:27
  then we had to you know we added some nice pro events we've been
• 1:12:29
  we've had some Olympic medalists the last couple years come
• 1:12:31
  compete at Franklin Field which it's fun to see them compete.
• 1:12:34
  So we're we're going to keep trying to push the bar and and I
• 1:12:37
  spent a lot of my time on that big picture how do we how do we
• 1:12:40
  evolve this to make it better. And then I have great people, a
• 1:12:43
  part of our staff, that are actually making it happen.
• 1:12:47
  How do you, you know, I explained before we hit record,
• 1:12:50
  you know, there the two main goals of our podcast here.
• 1:12:54
  One is to uplift and honor what you have done up to this point.
• 1:12:57
  It's amazing. I love your unique story of how
• 1:13:00
  you got into coaching. You know there.
• 1:13:02
  I think if you were to ask what is the typical way someone gets
• 1:13:04
  into coaching, it's, you know, they were a track athlete, they
• 1:13:07
  went to school to be a teacher and then became Aga and all this
• 1:13:10
  kind of stuff. So I love the different avenues.
• 1:13:13
  It shows that, you know, someone right now is listening.
• 1:13:16
  We have a pretty good contingent of athlete listeners.
• 1:13:18
  Someone right now is listening as a decathlete at such and such
• 1:13:21
  university studying business and was like and it's like, Oh my
• 1:13:24
  gosh, wait, I could still be a track coach.
• 1:13:25
  Like I thought that was over because I chose business.
• 1:13:27
  They're going to hear that story.
• 1:13:28
  So that's one goal is uplifted honor your journey and I'm so
• 1:13:31
  grateful for you sharing that with us here today as we
• 1:13:33
  continue. The second goal is, you know,
• 1:13:36
  the amount of listeners, which always still boggles me.
• 1:13:38
  It's amazing that you pressed play today.
• 1:13:40
  I'm so grateful to bring value to them and we have this large
• 1:13:44
  gamut of, like I said, we have athletes, we have coaches that
• 1:13:47
  have coached 40-50 years that listen to the podcast and
• 1:13:50
  everything in between. I'm curious and this may
• 1:13:52
  actually be more personal for me and my business world and
• 1:13:55
  managing teams. I love how you said, you know, I
• 1:13:59
  asked you, how do you mail the director of track and field and
• 1:14:02
  director of pin relays and your your gut answer, your quick
• 1:14:05
  answer was fine, good people. And knowing some of your people,
• 1:14:09
  I'm like, OK, that makes sense. Yeah, OK, you've nailed that.
• 1:14:11
  That's great. And so when you talk about
• 1:14:15
  giving people jobs and you know, let letting them be who they are
• 1:14:20
  and and be successful, that means you have to give up
• 1:14:23
  control and that's hard. First, people, that's hard for
• 1:14:28
  because of bad ego. Ego's not bad ego helps drive us
• 1:14:31
  to make us better. So ego's not necessarily bad.
• 1:14:33
  Bad ego is bad. Bad ego wants to say, yeah,
• 1:14:38
  you're going to be in charge of XYZ corporate sponsorships we'll
• 1:14:41
  use as an example. But then when they don't do it
• 1:14:43
  the way you already had envisioned it, well hey, you did
• 1:14:46
  it wrong. How do you how do you let go?
• 1:14:53
  Does that make sense? How do you you know, Yeah.
• 1:14:57
  OK, yeah, yeah. Go go a long.
• 1:14:58
  Way to reply. So I don't have it mastered.
• 1:15:00
  I mean that's definitely a tug of war.
• 1:15:02
  I think sometimes I do it, sometimes I do it successfully
• 1:15:05
  and often times I do not. So I'm sure the people who I
• 1:15:08
  work with will say, you know, some will say, hey, I feel very
• 1:15:11
  empowered, I'm doing great and others will feel like you know,
• 1:15:14
  you know coach is concerned or wants a different like.
• 1:15:16
  So it's it's a tug of war. Like I said it's been an
• 1:15:19
  evolution for me and but I try to sit down and realize that
• 1:15:21
  there's no way, like you said, there's no way I could
• 1:15:24
  personally do all these things well.
• 1:15:27
  So I need to figure out which things I can put my own time and
• 1:15:32
  energy in. Looks for me.
• 1:15:33
  I'll just share this. I love coaching.
• 1:15:35
  I love coaching and teaching. So when you say when I
• 1:15:37
  prioritize my day, my first goal is I'm going to see these
• 1:15:39
  athletes, we're going to have practice.
• 1:15:41
  I I I like to keep that on the top of my list, right?
• 1:15:44
  So now I have a lot of responsibilities with Penn Track
• 1:15:46
  and Penn Relays but those for me are coming second because I
• 1:15:51
  still in my heart love the coaching piece.
• 1:15:54
  But I feel like those other things AI can do them because
• 1:15:56
  not all of them are that time sensitive or BI have great
• 1:15:59
  people helping me in all those different areas to make those
• 1:16:02
  happen and I'm working with them and we're putting 2 heads are
• 1:16:05
  better than one but I know I've got great people so but but to
• 1:16:08
  answer your question I I definitely don't have it
• 1:16:10
  mastered. I'm not like everybody else like
• 1:16:13
  you have that feeling at times like boy, if that doesn't happen
• 1:16:16
  in the end it's my responsibility.
• 1:16:18
  So you know there is a part of me that's always sort of you
• 1:16:22
  know anxious and hoping that it all comes together.
• 1:16:24
  But again I it's it's something I'm working at and hopefully I'm
• 1:16:26
  getting better at it with time that that really.
• 1:16:29
  And then we we try to evolve every year and every season to
• 1:16:31
  look at even at Penn track. Every summer we sit down and we
• 1:16:34
  say OK within our staff what things went well, what things
• 1:16:38
  didn't and who might be able to change their responsibility.
• 1:16:41
  Well, this year this person worked with compliance and that
• 1:16:44
  person worked with equipment, you know, on our staff.
• 1:16:47
  Maybe we should try it different.
• 1:16:48
  Maybe that's not your skill set. So we're always trying to not
• 1:16:51
  only just add new people, but within our own staff, play to
• 1:16:54
  people's strengths or how does someone get a little bit better,
• 1:16:57
  you know? So that's a long answer, but I
• 1:16:59
  don't have it mastered, but I'm trying very hard to to do that
• 1:17:02
  effectively. No.
• 1:17:03
  First of all, I appreciate your openness and authenticity there
• 1:17:07
  because you have to have some goodness to it or you know, the
• 1:17:10
  pin relays and pin track team would implode.
• 1:17:12
  I mean it's just it's just too big for you to try to
• 1:17:15
  micromanage it all. So I knew you had to have some
• 1:17:17
  skill set in there. So I really appreciate your
• 1:17:19
  authenticity, authenticity and humbleness of there.
• 1:17:21
  Like, yeah, yeah, I'm not great at it.
• 1:17:23
  I'm not, I'm not perfected it. I'm still working on it.
• 1:17:26
  I I think the real lesson there, what I like about that is that
• 1:17:29
  summer evaluation. So what I heard you say is, OK,
• 1:17:33
  we try things and then if it fails or doesn't go as good as
• 1:17:36
  we want, will we sit down and say, well what What should
• 1:17:38
  change? Should you work with that
• 1:17:40
  person? Should you go do this type.
• 1:17:41
  Let's let's not just get set in our stone and say well, so and
• 1:17:44
  so has been doing this for five years, just keep going.
• 1:17:47
  Even though it's not working, you're you're it sounds like
• 1:17:49
  you're constantly evaluating yourself and the team on how to
• 1:17:53
  continue to move forward in a positive manner.
• 1:17:55
  Yeah, I mean, I think in every aspect, we're trying to
• 1:17:57
  constantly improve, right? Whether you can or can't.
• 1:18:00
  We almost leave nothing the same.
• 1:18:01
  You know, like what I tell you, here's how we recruited last
• 1:18:04
  year. OK, we did well.
• 1:18:06
  But like, what aspect of recruiting could we do different
• 1:18:08
  or try or what would be better? We're, you know, and it's true
• 1:18:11
  of everything, whether it's, you know, how we coach, how we
• 1:18:14
  recruit, you know, how we run in the track meets.
• 1:18:17
  Like we're just going to, we're going to keep pushing ourselves
• 1:18:20
  for constant improvement. And I think that's you have to,
• 1:18:23
  right. So like once you get complacent
• 1:18:25
  and how can we make the Penn Relays better, you know, and
• 1:18:29
  we're just going to keep pushing to see, like keep evaluating how
• 1:18:32
  do we get better. That's what we're trying to do
• 1:18:35
  all. Right.
• 1:18:36
  I got. I'm going to say I got three
• 1:18:38
  more topics, but you know with tangents, man, me and you, we
• 1:18:40
  might kind of come up with 30 more.
• 1:18:43
  You brought up one of the topics, recruiting.
• 1:18:46
  How so? A good friend of mine is Mark
• 1:18:49
  Davis, now head coach at Troy University.
• 1:18:51
  That's my alma mater. And you know, his wife, Michelle
• 1:18:55
  Clayton, You know, she came from Dartmouth and he came from Yale.
• 1:18:58
  And I remember him calling me up when he was interviewing because
• 1:19:02
  I'm a big Troy, my my son's name is Troy.
• 1:19:04
  That's how big that school is to me.
• 1:19:06
  OK. And so someone who gave in Mark
• 1:19:08
  my number and he calls me and says, hey, I'm going for an
• 1:19:11
  interview, you know, next week, just wanted to pick your brain,
• 1:19:15
  blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember going, so Mark,
• 1:19:17
  you're you're at Yale University, right?
• 1:19:20
  And he's like, yeah. And I go, well, I got good news
• 1:19:22
  and I got bad news. You know, he, you know, he's
• 1:19:24
  just like, what is this guy talking about?
• 1:19:26
  I said well Mark, I go you know how I assume at Yale you have to
• 1:19:30
  like go recruit nothing but 36 AC TS and whatnot.
• 1:19:33
  I was like well good news is you ain't got to worry about that
• 1:19:35
  you can recruit eighteens and stuff.
• 1:19:37
  And I said bad news is I assume you probably don't have much of
• 1:19:40
  AAA problem with academics at Yale.
• 1:19:43
  You will always have an academic issue like you always have study
• 1:19:46
  halls and and what have you. How do you you know you've been
• 1:19:49
  at Princeton and and not that you know TC and J is is a heck
• 1:19:53
  of an academic school by the way.
• 1:19:55
  But Princeton and now Penn you know the top of the top you
• 1:19:59
  you're competing against not only every Ivy League school,
• 1:20:02
  but you're competing against Stanford and Northwestern's.
• 1:20:04
  I mean just, you know the top of the top academic institutions.
• 1:20:09
  There's only so many. And you do it with a really like
• 1:20:11
  you get really good kids. There's only so many good kids
• 1:20:15
  that have those test scores and GPA and aptitude to be
• 1:20:19
  successful at those institutions.
• 1:20:21
  How do you? Do it.
• 1:20:23
  I I mean, your pool of recruits I imagine just have to be so
• 1:20:26
  small and everybody is a is a is attacking those kids.
• 1:20:30
  How do you do this, Steve, at such a great level?
• 1:20:33
  Yeah, so should I not give out any recruiting secrets?
• 1:20:35
  Yeah. Don't give out any secrets.
• 1:20:36
  I'm just. I'm just how you keep your
• 1:20:38
  insanity more than anything. I'm just using.
• 1:20:40
  What I'm saying is I think the thing I would say is of all
• 1:20:43
  three schools I've personally coached at and if I was coaching
• 1:20:45
  anywhere else, I mean the first thing is to figure out, like,
• 1:20:48
  what? What does this place have to
• 1:20:50
  offer and who am I chasing, right.
• 1:20:52
  So like, you know, there's a lot of great schools in all
• 1:20:54
  different, you know, situations. And what I always say in our
• 1:20:57
  coaching staff, we try really hard to find Penn people.
• 1:21:00
  What I mean by that is like, who has what we have to offer?
• 1:21:03
  Who? Who wants what we have to offer?
• 1:21:05
  What I mean by that is there's all the variables, right?
• 1:21:07
  Yeah. There's high level academic
• 1:21:08
  schools. Does the financial aid work?
• 1:21:11
  Do you want to be in the city or in the country?
• 1:21:14
  Do you want to? What part of the country do you
• 1:21:15
  want to live in? What team atmosphere do you
• 1:21:17
  want? Like there's just all these
• 1:21:19
  variables. And, you know, I think I've been
• 1:21:21
  saying for years in my recruiting visits, like, hey,
• 1:21:24
  you know, you know, students like, oh, I don't know, there's
• 1:21:26
  all these schools. They said we'll start making a
• 1:21:28
  list of what you're looking for, like start checking boxes.
• 1:21:31
  How big of a school? Like there's a lot of variables.
• 1:21:34
  And I guess our hopes is that I think Penn's an amazing
• 1:21:37
  opportunity and, you know, an outstanding opportunity, but
• 1:21:40
  it's not for everybody. It it's got to be a match.
• 1:21:42
  So I always tell students, look for a match and I I literally
• 1:21:45
  tell students if another school checks more boxes than us for
• 1:21:48
  what you're looking for, you should go there.
• 1:21:51
  I'm not trying to trick you into coming to Penn.
• 1:21:53
  Like if Penn checks the boxes of what you're looking for, we want
• 1:21:56
  you at Penn because we want people excited and passionate
• 1:21:58
  about being at Penn. And the reality is there are a
• 1:22:00
  lot of good students out there in track and field across all
• 1:22:02
  event groups so we can find qualified students.
• 1:22:05
  I mean, yes, it's not everybody's qualified
• 1:22:07
  academically, but there's a lot of good students.
• 1:22:09
  Our sport and I think the nature of our sport is people who do
• 1:22:12
  well in it like they have a work ethic, They, you know, if you're
• 1:22:15
  going to be good at track and field and take your ability to
• 1:22:18
  the fullest, you're going to work for it.
• 1:22:20
  Those same skills go into the classroom, right.
• 1:22:22
  So there's a lot of great students out there in track and
• 1:22:24
  field. And then for us, you know,
• 1:22:26
  Penn's an amazing place. I mean it has to work
• 1:22:28
  financially, but we have great need based financial aid for
• 1:22:31
  those that qualify. So you know, we walk up to that
• 1:22:34
  one early to make sure it can work for a student and then
• 1:22:37
  we're fortunate, right. I mean we enjoy being in the
• 1:22:38
  city of Philadelphia. We've got great facilities.
• 1:22:42
  You know, I think we have a ton to offer, but it's got to be a
• 1:22:44
  match. You're right, you know, and
• 1:22:45
  that's the same way I felt when I coached at TC and J and the
• 1:22:47
  same way I felt at Princeton, like it's got to be a good
• 1:22:51
  match. But you know, we do hustle.
• 1:22:52
  I mean we do have to recruit a lot more people for the people
• 1:22:56
  we end up getting just to find the the right ones.
• 1:22:58
  You know, You know we we have a pretty diverse class coming in
• 1:23:02
  every year and you know our roster is usually between 50 and
• 1:23:04
  60 for both genders. So you know we have to bring in
• 1:23:08
  you know give or take 15 people a year for both sides and we
• 1:23:11
  want it to be a diverse group but we don't recruit 15 to get
• 1:23:14
  15. We we certainly have to start
• 1:23:16
  with a broader group. Yeah, it's amazing.
• 1:23:19
  And I think you brought up a great point there about the fit.
• 1:23:22
  You know, I think some people, usually not very successful
• 1:23:25
  people long term in, in our profession, think that if
• 1:23:28
  they're successful recruiting at one school, that will, they'll
• 1:23:31
  be successful anywhere, 'cause, you know, it's my style or or
• 1:23:33
  whatnot. What you need at Penn is
• 1:23:36
  different than what Northwestern needs or Stanford or University
• 1:23:40
  of Chicago. It is different by school.
• 1:23:42
  It's not just the person in your personality recruiting.
• 1:23:45
  It is that fit of that school someone, someone who wants to be
• 1:23:48
  in a more agricultural country type of school probably is not
• 1:23:52
  going to do very well in the middle of Philadelphia.
• 1:23:54
  But the reverse is true as well. Someone who wants you know a
• 1:23:58
  city rule type. Yeah rural type atmosphere is
• 1:24:01
  going to maybe thrive at Penn instead of a more agricultural
• 1:24:04
  type school. So I I think it's a really great
• 1:24:06
  point about the fit and I love how you you know we we have to
• 1:24:10
  learn this in in sales Steve and it's really hard for us we we
• 1:24:14
  tend to think in sales that everybody's our customer and
• 1:24:18
  that's just simply not true. I love how you put their, like,
• 1:24:21
  not every kids a pen kid, you know.
• 1:24:23
  And if if if this other school checks more boxes, you know
• 1:24:27
  what, that's probably what's best for you because if you
• 1:24:30
  didn't come here and we didn't check very many boxes, you're
• 1:24:32
  not going to be happy. I'm not going to be happy.
• 1:24:34
  We have a lot of other problems now at that point.
• 1:24:37
  So I love that humility of like, hey, we're not, you know, we're
• 1:24:39
  great. We're not for everybody, but
• 1:24:40
  we're great for the people who do are looking for the the
• 1:24:43
  things that we do here at Penn. So that's that's that's tough
• 1:24:47
  sometimes. That's true.
• 1:24:48
  Well, and I sit here like we started this conversation.
• 1:24:50
  I competed at the University of Saint Thomas, which is Division
• 1:24:53
  One now, but was Division Three of the time.
• 1:24:54
  I competed and it was a great match for me.
• 1:24:56
  I had great opportunities, great, great coaches.
• 1:24:59
  I got to compete at a national level, which I probably wasn't
• 1:25:02
  at that point ready to do in Division One.
• 1:25:04
  Like it was great for me, you know so and I I felt strongly
• 1:25:07
  when I recruited TC and J that for a lot of people I was
• 1:25:09
  recruiting that was the best option.
• 1:25:11
  That was a great option like academically, financially,
• 1:25:13
  athletically. And so, you know, I think you
• 1:25:16
  got to, you know, figure out what you got to offer and and go
• 1:25:18
  find people that that's a great match for.
• 1:25:21
  All right, next topic. I feel like I have a pretty
• 1:25:23
  unique distance coach here because of the background with
• 1:25:27
  decathlon and stuff and even the background not being an exercise
• 1:25:30
  phys type of major and and learning that stuff.
• 1:25:33
  We talked earlier about the four minute mile.
• 1:25:36
  This just kind of came up as we were talking about that.
• 1:25:39
  It's still a special barrier, just like 26.2 is a special
• 1:25:43
  barrier. You know, more people brag about
• 1:25:45
  running a marathon, whether you run in six hours or two hours
• 1:25:48
  than they do of running a 50 mile.
• 1:25:49
  Like, they're certainly longer races than the marathon.
• 1:25:52
  But the marathon running the 26.2 is special.
• 1:25:54
  Running 4 minutes for the mile is special regardless of how
• 1:25:57
  many people do it every year now.
• 1:25:59
  But I am curious, you know, it's in in behind the scenes here.
• 1:26:02
  So you're listening to this during Penn Relays Week, where
• 1:26:04
  the pen relays start this week and go through the weekend.
• 1:26:06
  It's going to be amazing, but we're actually recording this
• 1:26:08
  before even conference meets indoors.
• 1:26:11
  And I just saw a thing on Twitter this weekend, 354 for
• 1:26:17
  the division, one men's mile I believe is 16th and we take 16th
• 1:26:20
  to the national meet. 354, I think it was Connor Mance was
• 1:26:24
  the guy they listed for BYU was what he ran in 2012 to set the
• 1:26:28
  collegiate record. So not that long ago that was
• 1:26:31
  the national record and now it's not going to, it's 17th by the
• 1:26:34
  way, I said 16th. It's also 17th.
• 1:26:36
  Someone's running 354 in the mile and not going to nationals.
• 1:26:40
  That's bonkers. What do you think?
• 1:26:45
  I'm not going to, I'm not going to pinpoint you and say what is
• 1:26:47
  the one thing because usually the one thing is not the one
• 1:26:49
  thing. What are the give me your
• 1:26:52
  thoughts on? Is it the shoes?
• 1:26:54
  I hear that a lot and I understand, I appreciate
• 1:26:56
  technology just as much as the next guy.
• 1:26:58
  Is it training? Was it COVID?
• 1:27:01
  You know, we had another year of training, You know, we got, you
• 1:27:03
  know, deeper into our training or maybe some of us are a little
• 1:27:05
  bit older as well as we had more training.
• 1:27:08
  Is it just the natural evolution of the event?
• 1:27:10
  What is? What's going on with
• 1:27:12
  specifically the mile? But you know, and not just
• 1:27:14
  distance. It's everything right now, by
• 1:27:16
  the way. But what's your thoughts on why
• 1:27:17
  in the world is 354 the college record one day and now you don't
• 1:27:20
  even get to the national meet the next?
• 1:27:23
  Yeah, I definitely think it's funny, 'cause I think all of us
• 1:27:25
  as coach have been kind of readjust in all events what's
• 1:27:28
  fast or what's competitive. As they said back at TCJ, I used
• 1:27:31
  to say, hey, as we raise the bar, people jump higher.
• 1:27:34
  And I think it's happened in almost all event groups at this
• 1:27:36
  point. Like you can play that game with
• 1:27:38
  a lot of events saying what it took X years ago to go to
• 1:27:41
  Nationals. What it takes now it's the
• 1:27:42
  levels are up, right? And the mile is an easy one to
• 1:27:45
  look at, 'cause you have the four minutes in your head.
• 1:27:46
  But I think there's a bunch of variables, honestly, Mike, like,
• 1:27:49
  yes, technology matters in sport, right?
• 1:27:51
  So with the track surfaces are faster or the shoes are better
• 1:27:54
  designed. I definitely think there's a
• 1:27:56
  variable. But that's true in, you know,
• 1:27:58
  the pole vault too, right? We got the better pole vault
• 1:28:00
  poles. People jump higher.
• 1:28:02
  So I think that is, it's good. I mean it's it's better for
• 1:28:05
  people's health and performance, right?
• 1:28:06
  But then there's other variables too.
• 1:28:07
  We have evolved in training, right?
• 1:28:09
  Like people learn more about the body and what's working.
• 1:28:11
  And I think there's new training methods and philosophies that
• 1:28:15
  are probably better than the ones that we did 1520 years ago,
• 1:28:18
  right. So training has evolved.
• 1:28:20
  The other thing is I do think the Internet has been helpful.
• 1:28:22
  Like we can all A, access the training or B, you know what
• 1:28:26
  everybody else is doing. Oh, wow, That person high jumped
• 1:28:28
  this high. I better make that next bar.
• 1:28:30
  Like knowing what's out there and what level you have to get
• 1:28:33
  to is motivational and educational.
• 1:28:36
  So we all have access to that information instantaneously,
• 1:28:39
  good or bad, we have a lot of information instantaneously.
• 1:28:42
  And then the one thing I think that's specific to collegiate
• 1:28:45
  competition though is, you know, coming off of COVID and stuff,
• 1:28:49
  there is a lot of extra eligibility.
• 1:28:50
  So I think that a lot. I sort of joked that no one ever
• 1:28:53
  graduates, but there are a lot of people that have been able to
• 1:28:56
  their benefit of course and teams benefit to extend their
• 1:28:59
  college experience into Graduate School or so forth.
• 1:29:02
  So we have a lot of people competing as fifth and even 6th
• 1:29:05
  year athletes. So I I I don't think that's
• 1:29:08
  something that I we should take lightly.
• 1:29:10
  We always had people extending but not as many as now.
• 1:29:13
  So I think we're in a cycle that's unique that people that
• 1:29:16
  would have graduated a year or two ago are still competing at
• 1:29:20
  the collegiate level. So the depth of high level
• 1:29:22
  talent and maybe the age of competitors is also noteworthy
• 1:29:26
  relative to what it was 5 and 10 years ago.
• 1:29:29
  And I think that's noteworthy. You know, so I think technology
• 1:29:33
  training and and then frankly that there are a number of
• 1:29:36
  people that have been able to extend their college careers
• 1:29:39
  beyond what they would have 5 and 10 years ago really makes it
• 1:29:43
  a deep and talented field. And the other thing that is
• 1:29:45
  great about our sport is our sport is a worldwide sport,
• 1:29:48
  right? So if you look across the event
• 1:29:50
  groups, especially in Division One athletics and in track and
• 1:29:53
  field, like it's very international.
• 1:29:55
  So it's not just the best of the United States that are competing
• 1:29:58
  at the colleges, it's the best in the world.
• 1:30:01
  So boy, there's a lot of variables that have just pushed
• 1:30:03
  the level performance up. Yeah, that's why I didn't want
• 1:30:05
  to say what's the one thing doing it because I I don't, I
• 1:30:07
  don't believe that the one thing is the one thing.
• 1:30:10
  There are multiple variables. Certainly the shoes technology
• 1:30:13
  is better. I I think the coaching is better
• 1:30:15
  to your point as well. And I think you brought up a
• 1:30:17
  great point too. I remember when we moved to the
• 1:30:19
  regional system and so you know the 48th gets into, you know the
• 1:30:23
  east or West region and it was like oh, that 48th is going to
• 1:30:25
  get a lot better because now you have a bar.
• 1:30:28
  So that bar, you know again to your point about kids raising
• 1:30:31
  the bar coaches as well, it's like oh man, I used to be able
• 1:30:34
  to coach a six foot high jumper on the women's side and that was
• 1:30:36
  pretty good. Well, now that doesn't even make
• 1:30:38
  it to national. So I better figure out how to
• 1:30:39
  coach them to be a six foot, 16 foot two etcetera.
• 1:30:41
  So I think it it again talking about you know, your life as a
• 1:30:45
  coach and person is an amalgamation.
• 1:30:47
  I think all of this flows into it to to to make what we are now
• 1:30:53
  seeing, which is just bonkers, which means in 10 years this is
• 1:30:56
  going to look, you know, slow. And so remember when 354 used to
• 1:31:01
  make it, now you got to run 350 or what?
• 1:31:03
  You know, it's just the human body's amazing.
• 1:31:05
  It's not going to stop. I tell them I look, I look at it
• 1:31:08
  as an exciting time. I think some people who you know
• 1:31:10
  are, are, have been coaching for a long time, feel like, oh, you
• 1:31:13
  know, it's, you know, they they almost feel like, oh, the shoes
• 1:31:16
  have changed. And it's like I say, let's get
• 1:31:18
  used to people running faster. And also, you know, I welcome
• 1:31:21
  the competition. I think it's great that, you
• 1:31:23
  know, our sport, you know, has allowed some people to get that
• 1:31:25
  extra eligibility and use that eligibility and so forth.
• 1:31:28
  And let's keep pushing the bar. And, you know, I see it within
• 1:31:31
  our own team and we have some stuff like we have multiple guys
• 1:31:33
  over 18 feet in the pole vault and you know, our women's 4 by
• 1:31:36
  4, you know, indoors, Ren, you know, 329, like this is stuff
• 1:31:40
  that's unique for for a place like Penn.
• 1:31:43
  But our athletes are, they're not putting limits on
• 1:31:44
  themselves. Like if someone else can do it,
• 1:31:46
  maybe I can do it. So it's like, I feel like you
• 1:31:49
  know, the limits have have gone away.
• 1:31:52
  People think they can can do more.
• 1:31:54
  It's it's exciting. That goes all the way back to
• 1:31:56
  Bannister in the Four Minute Mile.
• 1:31:57
  No one thought you could do it. And then when he did it, like a
• 1:31:59
  lot of people started doing it and now everybody does it every
• 1:32:02
  year, I guess. Yeah.
• 1:32:05
  All right, Steve, last question. I always like to end most of our
• 1:32:08
  interviews by asking what's got you excited about the upcoming
• 1:32:11
  year with Penn and you know whether it's this year, five
• 1:32:14
  years, you know things like that.
• 1:32:16
  But you actually touched on something that is really
• 1:32:18
  exciting because even though we have more of a a density in the
• 1:32:24
  New England Northeast area of indoor tracks, we still have a
• 1:32:28
  very limited inventory of indoor tracks in this country.
• 1:32:31
  We really saw that during COVID when we had to limit the amount
• 1:32:34
  of people in in facilities and God bless out West they have
• 1:32:37
  like 3 track, you know now four Spokane but very limited.
• 1:32:41
  But even in New England northeast area where we have a
• 1:32:43
  lot, we don't have a lot and the University of Pennsylvania
• 1:32:48
  stepped up and they're not just building an indoor facility
• 1:32:51
  here. The Art Center is it's amazing
• 1:32:55
  what so so kind of explain you, you gave us a quick overview,
• 1:32:59
  let's talk about that little bit more talk to us about this
• 1:33:01
  indoor facility, what's it going to do for your program and
• 1:33:03
  what's it going to do? Are we going to do an indoor
• 1:33:05
  pen? Relays.
• 1:33:06
  What? What are we going to do with
• 1:33:07
  this facility as well? Yeah, it's incredibly exciting,
• 1:33:10
  Mike. So I I smile because when I
• 1:33:12
  first came to Penn there was talk of like we'd like to do an
• 1:33:15
  indoor facility. Of course that's 12 years ago.
• 1:33:17
  But I got to know the alums, the alums from the 1970s and 80s
• 1:33:20
  kept saying we were talking about indoor facility in the
• 1:33:22
  1970s and 80s. So it has been quite a process
• 1:33:26
  and and time to make this thing come to fruition, but it's
• 1:33:29
  incredible. So first of all our alumni
• 1:33:31
  community has stepped up huge. So to acknowledge that Dave and
• 1:33:34
  Jay not are are the lead donors to to make this happen but we
• 1:33:38
  also have Adrian Brian Chef who were or Adria ran on track and
• 1:33:42
  Penn and Jay Alex and and so those are the three kind of Penn
• 1:33:45
  track alums that are our lead donors to make this happen and
• 1:33:48
  many others who join them in the pursuit of of of raising the
• 1:33:52
  funding to do something that's really going to change the
• 1:33:54
  landscape of not just Penn track but East Coast and track and
• 1:33:58
  field. It's incredible and the
• 1:34:00
  university's contribution is stepping up and supporting the
• 1:34:02
  project as well. But yeah it's going to be
• 1:34:04
  amazing. So there isn't a 200 meter
• 1:34:06
  banked indoor track in the Philadelphia metropolitan area
• 1:34:09
  and there never has been. So it's an exciting time for the
• 1:34:13
  for our team and it's an exciting time for this region of
• 1:34:15
  the country to have this facility go in and you know
• 1:34:18
  they're really you know doing it the best.
• 1:34:20
  It's it's world class. It's a you know 200 meter banked
• 1:34:22
  indoor track with a a 12° bank and the widest radius and then
• 1:34:26
  field events trying to make them world class like you know the
• 1:34:29
  high jump or the pole vault and the long jump.
• 1:34:30
  They've put in recessed runways and a dedicated throws cage
• 1:34:34
  that's going to be fantastic and you know we're really trying to
• 1:34:37
  make it a a world class competitive facility.
• 1:34:40
  Honestly it's tough in a city campus.
• 1:34:41
  It's so we don't have a lot of space but it's really it's right
• 1:34:44
  outside of Franklin field right between Franklin Field and the
• 1:34:46
  river. So it's just a stone's throw
• 1:34:48
  from Franklin Field maybe less than 1/4 mile just out the back
• 1:34:52
  door. But we are limited in land
• 1:34:54
  space, so we've used every inch of it that we could and the
• 1:34:57
  facility has some leading seating limitations.
• 1:35:00
  It's probably a little over 1000 permanent seats that we have in
• 1:35:03
  the building. But we're excited about what
• 1:35:05
  it'll mean for our program, our athletes, collegiate meets and
• 1:35:09
  we're also excited about what we can do for the track and field
• 1:35:11
  community. We're definitely going to be
• 1:35:12
  hosting high school meets and some opener masters type
• 1:35:15
  competitions and we want the facility to be good for the
• 1:35:18
  Philadelphia community and track and field at large.
• 1:35:20
  So yeah, quite an exciting time, as you can imagine.
• 1:35:24
  Well, it's obviously you're not busy enough as the director of
• 1:35:27
  track and field director of Penn Relay.
• 1:35:28
  So now you've got another facility which you're going to
• 1:35:31
  host a lot of meets and you know how to coordinate your own
• 1:35:33
  practice times and things like that.
• 1:35:35
  So you just, you know you're just not busy enough.
• 1:35:37
  Steve, one of these days you're going to have to stop getting
• 1:35:39
  bored and adding all these things and just continue moving
• 1:35:41
  forward. What you got, man?
• 1:35:44
  You know M1 of the things I said to you when you asked me about
• 1:35:46
  why my Penn? This is why.
• 1:35:49
  I mean when I, when I looked at Penn, I said, you know, I love
• 1:35:52
  to coach the athletes and sort of continue with the track and
• 1:35:54
  field tradition. We've had some of me, you know,
• 1:35:56
  recently we had Javelin national, Mark Benicello.
• 1:35:59
  NIA Akins who won the USA Championships last year was NCAA
• 1:36:02
  runner up at Penn. You know, we've had some just
• 1:36:04
  incredible athletes and I want to continue that tradition, but
• 1:36:07
  I also was super excited about Penn for exactly what we're
• 1:36:10
  doing right now. You know, like I thought this
• 1:36:12
  place can make a difference in the sport at large.
• 1:36:15
  You know, we already start with the footprint of Franklin Field,
• 1:36:17
  one of most historic stadiums in the country, and the Penn
• 1:36:19
  Relays. But in recent years, you know,
• 1:36:22
  we've hosted elite level high school national meet in the
• 1:36:24
  summer. We've had open meets in the
• 1:36:25
  summertime. Now we're adding indoor meets.
• 1:36:27
  Like, I I really think that we have a chance, you know, in the
• 1:36:30
  city of Philadelphia and at Penn to do something really special
• 1:36:33
  on the bigger landscape of track and field.
• 1:36:35
  And truthfully, I know this sounds funny, but from the very
• 1:36:38
  beginning that was one of the things that inspired me about
• 1:36:40
  coming here. So I'm really glad to be a part
• 1:36:42
  of that. Now these indoor meets, I will
• 1:36:43
  not be running these indoor meets.
• 1:36:44
  Someone else will make that all happen.
• 1:36:46
  I'll just stop by and check them out.
• 1:36:48
  But it's exciting. Oh man, it is exciting.
• 1:36:51
  You know we have a saying around here, healthy things grow.
• 1:36:55
  You know, if you think about gardens, people, businesses,
• 1:36:58
  they don't grow if they're not healthy.
• 1:36:59
  In fact, they the opposite is. And so for our sport, for the
• 1:37:04
  school, the University of Pennsylvania and for your
• 1:37:07
  program, anytime someone gets a new facility, that's exciting
• 1:37:10
  because it's growing, the sport is growing, Your program is
• 1:37:13
  growing. This indoor facility which is
• 1:37:15
  you know, I I don't know that I ever thought it would happen
• 1:37:18
  because simply because of the land, there is no land.
• 1:37:21
  You know we've been there. There's no land, there's nothing
• 1:37:23
  there that hasn't already been taken that's being used.
• 1:37:26
  So love that you found the ability to to build this again
• 1:37:30
  not a compromised indoor facility which would have been
• 1:37:33
  amazing again because of land and you know things like that to
• 1:37:36
  build a a first class facility, it's so awesome.
• 1:37:40
  It's exciting to see the success that you guys have had up to
• 1:37:43
  this point and now you add this when you talk about a boost to
• 1:37:47
  recruiting, a boost to training, a boost to the overall
• 1:37:50
  performance happiness of your coaching staff.
• 1:37:54
  This is a big, big part of continually moving forward and
• 1:37:58
  growing. So we're just excited for you
• 1:38:00
  guys to be real honest with you man.
• 1:38:02
  Healthy things grow and we just love love seeing that for for
• 1:38:06
  your program. Yeah, we're excited.
• 1:38:08
  We, I mentioned before that one of our themes is we try to say
• 1:38:10
  you know Penn track and field family.
• 1:38:12
  We like to see it as a family and we have a couple pillars of
• 1:38:14
  Penn track and field. But the first one is kind of
• 1:38:16
  unity. We want our team to be unified
• 1:38:18
  and we're kind of saying we now have a new indoor home, right
• 1:38:21
  like you mentioned how hard it is to get people together in one
• 1:38:25
  space to train. But we have that home coming in
• 1:38:28
  the fall for indoor track and field.
• 1:38:29
  So it's going to be really cool for our group to be able to
• 1:38:32
  gather there on a daily basis and see each other and train.
• 1:38:34
  So we don't as you can imagine we're we're more than excited
• 1:38:37
  about it, what it means for Penn and and I think what it can mean
• 1:38:39
  for the Track World. I love it.
• 1:38:41
  I love it. Well it's pin relays week guys.
• 1:38:44
  So whether you're online and checking out results whether
• 1:38:47
  you're there at the meet, I hope to see you there.
• 1:38:49
  I'm actually going to be there again this year.
• 1:38:50
  They couldn't keep me back even with the rain we had last year
• 1:38:53
  in the four by four is the and I sat, I was very beautiful I sat
• 1:38:56
  there the whole time and I got soaked but I I quite enjoyed it.
• 1:38:58
  We're going to be there again and I think we're adding correct
• 1:39:01
  me here Steve. We're adding back a type of USA
• 1:39:04
  versus the world. We're going to be on TV for some
• 1:39:07
  relays with some Team USA and other countries.
• 1:39:10
  Yeah. So what what's exciting is,
• 1:39:12
  yeah, the last few years, we definitely will continue to have
• 1:39:14
  a prime block on Saturday. We have professional events, so
• 1:39:17
  we will again have a number of individual professional events.
• 1:39:20
  But yeah, we're excited. We actually were able to team up
• 1:39:21
  with World Athletics. World Athletics this year has
• 1:39:25
  encouraged us to help out in putting on some relays.
• 1:39:27
  We're calling the Global Relays. And the reason for that is the
• 1:39:32
  following week, one week after Penn Relays is the World Relays
• 1:39:35
  and that is the qualifying and stepping stone for countries to
• 1:39:38
  make the Olympics. So we're providing a unique
• 1:39:41
  opportunity and it's fun for us, but we've invited countries from
• 1:39:44
  around the world to come run the four by 104 by 400 at Franklin
• 1:39:48
  Field at the Penn Relays more or less is a tune up or preparation
• 1:39:52
  for the World Relays and then hopefully ultimately the Olympic
• 1:39:54
  Games. So we'll have a men's and
• 1:39:56
  women's four by one and four by four as part of our Saturday
• 1:40:00
  afternoon program. Again, calling it the global
• 1:40:03
  relays since we have countries from around the globe, it's
• 1:40:06
  gonna be super exciting. That's cool.
• 1:40:07
  That's cool. Well, Steve, even more so after
• 1:40:12
  hearing all the things that you have to do in your positions
• 1:40:14
  there at University of Pennsylvania.
• 1:40:16
  Just so grateful for your time, man.
• 1:40:19
  I always tell people when they talk about our podcast here, you
• 1:40:22
  know, it's not an easy podcast to listen to because it's so
• 1:40:25
  long. You know, we don't do the 20
• 1:40:26
  minute, 30 minute. We I, I really, we're very
• 1:40:29
  intentional on getting deep into our guest and your career and
• 1:40:33
  mentors along the way. So it takes time.
• 1:40:35
  Your your career, your what you've done in the sport
• 1:40:38
  deserves hour and a half, two hours worth of of investigating.
• 1:40:42
  So it's not easy to listen to. But guess what that means?
• 1:40:45
  It's hard to be on the show. And so, you know, to ask two
• 1:40:48
  hours of your time, Steve, to sit down with us and prepare for
• 1:40:52
  us and then go over some amazing memories and, you know, talk
• 1:40:55
  about some exciting things that have happened and exciting
• 1:40:57
  things that are happening there in your program.
• 1:40:59
  We're just so grateful, man. I know you're busy.
• 1:41:01
  I know you probably have 50 emails that packed up and phone
• 1:41:05
  calls and there's probably someone out your door and
• 1:41:07
  there's just so much to do. So very, very thankful for your
• 1:41:09
  time, very grateful for you to sit down with us this week and
• 1:41:12
  talk about your really amazing career that is still going, my
• 1:41:16
  friend. That's the crazy awesome part is
• 1:41:18
  because you've had an amazing 30 years, there's still so much
• 1:41:21
  more to go and we're excited to watch from the sidelines and see
• 1:41:23
  what you and your program continue to do for our sport.
• 1:41:27
  Yeah, we'll get thanks to the opportunity, Mike.
• 1:41:28
  Like I said, I'm humbled. I I know that you had a lot of
• 1:41:30
  great people join you on the show here.
• 1:41:32
  So I'm humbled, have been a part of it and I hope maybe there's a
• 1:41:35
  few snippets that will be helpful with someone else out
• 1:41:36
  there. But let me just close with, you
• 1:41:38
  know, thanks to all those that have made my career as much fun
• 1:41:42
  as it's been and I am excited about the future.
• 1:41:43
  But for all the athletes I've had the honor to work with and
• 1:41:46
  the amazing coaches and administration and alumni and
• 1:41:50
  you know, I tell you what it's it's humbling when you think
• 1:41:52
  about all the people that have helped me and the and the teams
• 1:41:55
  that I've been a part of to have this experience be successful.
• 1:41:58
  So but yeah the sport of track and field special and you know I
• 1:42:01
  think we're all trying to do our part to make it grow and and
• 1:42:04
  thanks for what you and and and Gil and your team is doing in
• 1:42:06
  that regard. Absolutely.
• 1:42:08
  Well, it's a it's an honor to be involved in this sport.
• 1:42:11
  It says this sport was long before all of us.
• 1:42:14
  This sport will continue long after all of us.
• 1:42:16
  So to you know have the responsibility during the time
• 1:42:19
  we're here. It's an an amazing
• 1:42:21
  responsibility that we don't take lightly and all the things
• 1:42:23
  that we do. So, so thankful again for Steve
• 1:42:26
  being here this week, thankful for you again.
• 1:42:28
  This podcast doesn't. It's great to have guests, but
• 1:42:30
  you know, if no one listens, it's kind of like that tree
• 1:42:32
  falling doesn't really make a sound right.
• 1:42:34
  But you're here again. Once again as we're in episode 2
• 1:42:37
  256. That still boggles my mind. 5th
• 1:42:41
  season we're going to continue moving forward and bringing
• 1:42:43
  great people like Steve Dolan here to the podcast.
• 1:42:46
  Join us next week. We'll do it all over again.
• 1:42:48
  But make sure this weekend let's watch the pin relays and maybe
• 1:42:51
  I'll do something. I don't know.
• 1:42:52
  Do you have a no streaking policy?
• 1:42:53
  I got to figure out some way to get on TV but not get in jail
• 1:42:56
  there. That's a delicate balance for me
• 1:42:58
  in those things. But check us out this weekend on
• 1:43:00
  the television and then next week on the podcast.
• 1:43:02
  Thanks everybody. Appreciate you.
• 1:43:16
  If it goes to appreciate the coach, the ones that point
• 1:43:18
  people most every season needs a voice of reason to speak in the
• 1:43:22
  growth. You got to back for you carry
• 1:43:24
  the load to the soul. For those of us to stand, to go
• 1:43:27
  proper handoff, to stay in the zone with you packing for the
• 1:43:30
  road, there's more than one way to go.
• 1:43:32
  Take notes. That's ten, you're told.
• 1:43:34
  It ain't practice. If your purpose ain't clear.
• 1:43:36
  It can't happen been to you. Listen with both is can't mentor
• 1:43:39
  without a mentor kiss of experience you could reinvent
• 1:43:43
  those years every plans got a standard to live up to.
• 1:43:46
  Enterprise sacrifice. Can you give up you.
• 1:43:48
  It's a choice and a fight, not a win or lose.
• 1:43:51
  It's not a ploy but advice. Y'all can make more moves.
• 1:43:53
  It's not about how to. It's all about why you don't
• 1:43:56
  know till you know who you are inside six.
• 1:43:58
  When you waste the time, choose none.
• 1:44:00
  Until we all cross the finish line.
• 1:44:02
  The work ain't done. So we learn from the experts.
• 1:44:04
  We all got to put in the legwork Kill Athletics network.
• 1:44:08
  It's all about connections put together for the profession.
• 1:44:11
  To every track coach could be blessed.