Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1033 - Early Talent Promotion

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#1033 - Early Talent Promotion · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: once answers me out.
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  Speaker 1: On the Happy Families Podcast today a provocative topic, should
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  Speaker 1: we or should we not be pushing our children to
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  Speaker 1: advance with their early talent promotion? But before we go there, Kylie,
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  Speaker 1: this iss Happy Famili's but a sad day. Today's the
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  Speaker 1: very last day that we have a podcast that has
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  Speaker 1: been executive produced by Craig Bruce, the Great Craig Bruce,
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  Speaker 1: as of today no longer part of the Happy Family's team.
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  Speaker 1: So I wanted to start the podcast by highlighting the
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  Speaker 1: extraordinary and wonderful and brilliant contributions for almost four years.
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  Speaker 2: When I first came on, it was Craig who really
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  Speaker 2: instilled a belief in me that I could actually do
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  Speaker 2: something like this, and I've just been so grateful for
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  Speaker 2: his just the way he's championed me specifically, this is
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  Speaker 2: not an area of expertise for me at all, but
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  Speaker 2: he's just been such a beautiful, strong support and somebody
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  Speaker 2: that I have just gleaned so much from over the
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  Speaker 2: time we've worked together.
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  Speaker 1: And a great friend, just a tremendous friend. So a
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  Speaker 1: bit of a sad Day, a bit of a sad day,
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  Speaker 1: and the Happy Family's Podcast. Nevertheless, the podcast goes on
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  Speaker 1: because that's the nature of the world. Isn't that hard
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  Speaker 1: when people leave you, or every now and again when
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  Speaker 1: somebody dies and you have a period of morning and
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  Speaker 1: you say, and now I've got to go and live
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  Speaker 1: my life. You just get on with it. So that's
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  Speaker 1: what we're going to do today. We're going to get
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  Speaker 1: on with it. Kylie. A study that I want to
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  Speaker 1: talk about today, not a doctor's desk study, because this
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  Speaker 1: one's is this just semantics?
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  Speaker 2: It is a doctor's desk expir real.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we've got doctor's desk on Thursday.
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  Speaker 2: You're just squeazing to him in one week.
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  Speaker 1: Not really. This one just stood out to me and
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  Speaker 1: it strikes me. It's such a provocative topic because it
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  Speaker 1: is counter to everything that we do. It's kind of funny.
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  Speaker 1: What I'm about to talk about is something that from
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  Speaker 1: a scientific perspective, we have known for some time, and
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  Speaker 1: yet in society we continue to ignore it. There's no
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  Speaker 1: other way to say it. So I want to talk
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  Speaker 1: about accelerating kids in sport. Although it could be anything,
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  Speaker 1: it could be accelerating kids in whatever you want. Based
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  Speaker 1: on a recent research meta analysis that was published by
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  Speaker 1: a German sports scientist Arne Gulich and his collaborator from Austria,
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  Speaker 1: Michael Barth. It's called effects of early Talent Promotion on
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  Speaker 1: junior and senior Performances, A systematic review and meta analysis.
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  Speaker 1: And Kylie, I don't want people to fall asleep because
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  Speaker 1: this is at the very you know, when you go
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  Speaker 1: to assembly and you see the kids getting the awards,
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  Speaker 1: you know how good it feels. This goes to the
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  Speaker 1: very heart of that.
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  Speaker 2: I remember when Chanelle started school.
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  Speaker 1: So for those who are knew, she knows our eldest daughter,
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  Speaker 1: who's now in her mid twenties, so we're going back
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  Speaker 1: twenty years.
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  Speaker 2: She was reading. By the time she was for she
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  Speaker 2: was a really a dute, keen learner.
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  Speaker 1: We thought we had a very special not.
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  Speaker 2: Just special genius, like she was up.
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  Speaker 1: There and we were going to get her in modeling agencies.
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  Speaker 1: And she was already advanced in her sporting endeavors with netball.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, she was just killing it. She was so good.
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  Speaker 2: And I remember having conversation after conversation after conversation with
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  Speaker 2: teachers year after year. The acknowledgment that yes, she was
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  Speaker 2: doing extremely well. It just feels so good to know
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  Speaker 2: that you've done something right, right for your kids, right right, right.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Well, we see then experiencing success, and it's exciting
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  Speaker 1: for them, and it's exciting for us. So here's what
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  Speaker 1: the scientific, the compelling scientific evidence shows. It's a new
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  Speaker 1: MENA analysis. By the way, this is the fourth MENA
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  Speaker 1: analysis in the last couple of years that I've come
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  Speaker 1: across that highlights pretty much exactly the same lesson. Like
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  Speaker 1: I said, the science has been telling us us for
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  Speaker 1: a long time, being completely ignored in practice by parents
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  Speaker 1: and by coaches and by those who run what we
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  Speaker 1: might call talent promotion programs. Essentially, there's a conflict between
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  Speaker 1: short and long term development. So you've got those kids
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  Speaker 1: at streak ahead, as you highlighted, our eldest daughter was
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  Speaker 1: one of those kids who was st just just miles
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  Speaker 1: ahead of the pack, and then you've got those kids
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  Speaker 1: that are going slow. It's almost like the hair and
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  Speaker 1: the tortoise. And this might sound like we're going to
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  Speaker 1: be pumping for mediocrity here, that's not what this is about.
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  Speaker 1: Excellence is important. So, like I said, this German and
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  Speaker 1: the Austrian sports scientists. It sounds like I'm about to
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  Speaker 1: tell a joke. Doesn't it walk into a bar? They
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  Speaker 1: don't walk into a bar. But they do a big
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  Speaker 1: study more than six thousand kids junior athletes, fifty one
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  Speaker 1: different studies from two thousand and nine through twenty twenty two.
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  Speaker 1: They're looking at all of these they're looking at these
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  Speaker 1: kids that get selected for talent promotion program acceleration. And
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  Speaker 1: what they find, unsurprisingly is if you get your kids
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  Speaker 1: into one of these accelerated programs, the kids get better support,
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  Speaker 1: they get better facilities, they get more more.
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  Speaker 2: Opportunities, and they do really well.
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  Speaker 1: Of course they do. They get more opportunities to practice
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  Speaker 1: like they're in there and they're doing it, so their
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  Speaker 1: competence goes up and they feel really good about life.
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  Speaker 1: But here's what's fascinating about what this study shows. Well
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  Speaker 1: it's not one study, it's fifty one studies and all
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  Speaker 1: the various effects sizes in there. They find that the
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  Speaker 1: earlier you start your children in a talent promotion program,
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  Speaker 1: the earlier you try to accelerate your kids, the worse
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  Speaker 1: it goes. And that's for both individuals and for teams worldwide,
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  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what country they looked at worldwide, individuals, teams, males, females.
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  Speaker 1: The earlier your kids start in their talent promotion program,
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  Speaker 1: the worse it goes on average. I mean, there are
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  Speaker 1: obviously some early starters who still streak ahead and do
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  Speaker 1: really really well, don't get me wrong, but on average,
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  Speaker 1: huge attrition. Get this, between twenty five and fifty five
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  Speaker 1: percent of kids drop out on an annual basis, and
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  Speaker 1: then they refill the funnel with a whole bunch of
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  Speaker 1: new kids that they think might go really well. Twenty
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  Speaker 1: five to fifty five percent drop out. You know why
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  Speaker 1: growth spurts puberty. There's age selection effects. That's a really
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  Speaker 1: big thing, right. The eldest kids, they streak ahead, and
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  Speaker 1: so everyone thinks that they're gifted, but it's not. It's
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  Speaker 1: just that they're more mature, or they had more opportunities
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  Speaker 1: early in life.
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  Speaker 2: More than that, though, they haven't had to fight for
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  Speaker 2: time with mum. Right, you talk about natural selection. These
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  Speaker 2: kids have had you completely to themselves.
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  Speaker 1: So I wasn't actually talking about birth order. But you
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  Speaker 1: are right, which is why I let you finish the point.
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  Speaker 1: But rather just the eldest kids in each cohort as well,
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  Speaker 1: even if they're second or third or fourth kids in
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  Speaker 1: a family, the fact that they're older means that they're
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  Speaker 1: more mature. They're taller, or they're faster, or they're better
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  Speaker 1: at regulating their emotions or following instructions. So eldest kids,
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  Speaker 1: both from an investment on the parents' perspective and also
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  Speaker 1: simply by being bigger and older than all the other
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  Speaker 1: kids in their cohort, they do better.
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  Speaker 2: I'd really love them to do a study to see
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  Speaker 2: these children who do well in these early promotional programs
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  Speaker 2: and their happiness levels, because my experience, as I've watched
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  Speaker 2: kids who have specialized very early on, they don't have
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  Speaker 2: any balance in their lives. Everything is about putting blinders
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  Speaker 2: on to the life outside and just focusing and honing
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  Speaker 2: in on that one skill set that's going to put
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  Speaker 2: them above the rest, and in most cases there's just
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  Speaker 2: a deep sadness I see it.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm not aware of any studies that exists that
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  Speaker 1: have looked specifically at that. It's a fascinating research question.
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  Speaker 1: What I can tell you, though, is that there's really
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  Speaker 1: interesting research by a guy called Bob valorand and he's
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  Speaker 1: looked at this thing called harmonious passion and obsessive passion.
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  Speaker 1: He's not looking at adolescens. He's looking at well, college
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  Speaker 1: ade student and up right, so eighteen and up basically
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  Speaker 1: if you're an adult. And what he finds is that
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  Speaker 1: when people are doing something in a harmonious way with
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  Speaker 1: the rest of their life and with their values, they're
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  Speaker 1: passionate about something and it works in well for them,
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  Speaker 1: and they're doing it for the right reads since they're
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  Speaker 1: doing it because it's integrated into who they are. Those
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  Speaker 1: are the people who get tremendous well being gains. Tremendous
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  Speaker 1: well being gains from doing that activity.
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  Speaker 2: And you see that in the kids who were driven
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  Speaker 2: by a passion as opposed to a need to excel
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  Speaker 2: in an area.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and that needs probably a good word, because the
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  Speaker 1: alternative is what he calls obsessive passion and obsessive passion
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  Speaker 1: is I'm doing it because I have to. I'm doing
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  Speaker 1: it because I have to. I want to prove, I
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  Speaker 1: want to maintain. How I get this status.
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  Speaker 2: This is how I get status, or this is how
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  Speaker 2: I get noticed by Mum and dad. This is where
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  Speaker 2: I get my attention. Yeah, you can really see it.
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  Speaker 1: That reminds me of another study. I know again today
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  Speaker 1: it's not a doctor's desk, but this stuff really it
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  Speaker 1: matters so much for the way we're driving our kids
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  Speaker 1: and try to help them to achieve excellence. Right this
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  Speaker 1: conversation about kids fulfilling their potential. There was a study
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  Speaker 1: done by a made of mine, Chris Nemick, at the
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  Speaker 1: University of Rothes. He looked at people who were going
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  Speaker 1: through university and then what happened following university, and what
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  Speaker 1: he looked at specifically was the goals that they were
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  Speaker 1: setting for the rest of their lives while they were
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  Speaker 1: at university. Did they have harmonious intrinsic goals or do
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  Speaker 1: they have extrinsic goals I want to look like this,
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  Speaker 1: I want to attain that.
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  Speaker 2: I want to earn this much more.
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  Speaker 1: Precisely, and what he found was that the well being
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  Speaker 1: levels of the people who had these intrinsic goals like
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  Speaker 1: I'm here to learn, I'm here to grow, I'm here
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  Speaker 1: to make a contribution, I'm here to develop relationships. I
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  Speaker 1: love building competence. I'm doing this because I love it,
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  Speaker 1: they had much greater levels of well being, significantly high
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  Speaker 1: levels of well being than those young people who said
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  Speaker 1: I want the car, I want the house, I want
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  Speaker 1: the salary, I want the career, I want to be
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  Speaker 1: at one of the big financial firms, or whatever it was.
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  Speaker 1: It's not that they were unhappy, it's just that they
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  Speaker 1: didn't experience the same well being benefits. All of that
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  Speaker 1: is to say, in response to your question, if we
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  Speaker 1: push our kids into these early talent promotion programs at
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  Speaker 1: a young age, quite often they're doing it well. They're
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  Speaker 1: going to be excited about it when they're young because
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  Speaker 1: they're doing really well. We've even watched this with one
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  Speaker 1: of our nephews who is about to like he's on
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  Speaker 1: the casp of becoming a first grade rugby league player.
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  Speaker 1: He was an absolute superstar in rugby league all right
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  Speaker 1: through his childhood and adolescent years. But the further you go,
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  Speaker 1: the harder it gets. And by the time he was
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  Speaker 1: in his mid to late teens and everyone else had
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  Speaker 1: caught up. He's still an exemplary, exceptional player, but he's
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  Speaker 1: had to work far, far, far harder at it as
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  Speaker 1: a young adult than he did as a kid. And
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  Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is done been.
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  Speaker 1: The best for him is it's not his only outlet.
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  Speaker 1: He's done a university degree and he's got a really
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  Speaker 1: well balanced life outside of the game. He's playing the
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  Speaker 1: game because he loves it, not because he feels like
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  Speaker 1: he has to approve something to people. So I guess
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  Speaker 1: that's kind of the real take home message. In the
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  Speaker 1: words of these authors, they were looking at the opportunity, cost,
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  Speaker 1: the time involve the injuries that kids have, the burnout
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  Speaker 1: that comes. They made a couple of points, and I
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  Speaker 1: want to read these exact words because I thought they
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  Speaker 1: were so powerful. They said, consistent across different populations. Early
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  Speaker 1: talent promotion program involvement is positively correlated with short term
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  Speaker 1: junior performance, but is negatively correlated with long term senior performance.
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  Speaker 2: When I think back to all of the conversations I
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  Speaker 2: had with Chanelle's teachers in those first few years, the
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  Speaker 2: acknowledgment was she was leaps and bounds ahead of the
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  Speaker 2: average kid, but across the board their experience was sooner
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  Speaker 2: or later the other kids were going to catch up.
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  Speaker 2: She wasn't a superstar. She had just been able to
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  Speaker 2: experience one on one time with me, which gave her
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  Speaker 2: an advantage. It wasn't actually academic advantage as much as
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  Speaker 2: it was relationship advantage.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, streaking ahead and staying there is not the norm.
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  Speaker 1: It just isn't. If you've got a child who really
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  Speaker 1: does who really is That's why we start to talk
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  Speaker 1: about the whole gifted stuff, and that's not the purpose
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  Speaker 1: of this podcast most of all, though, here's what I
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  Speaker 1: would say to wrap up. Help you kids if they want,
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  Speaker 1: if they really like something, get them to practice lots.
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  Speaker 1: Make sure they've got good support.
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  Speaker 2: I don't even think that if your kid is genuinely
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  Speaker 2: passionate about something, you don't need to tell them to
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  Speaker 2: sit down at the piano and practice for thirty minutes
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  Speaker 2: every day. They do it because they love it. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that so many relationships in the home are
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  Speaker 2: challenged because Mum or dad decides that you're really good
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  Speaker 2: at this, and I'm going to make you do it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a conversation with someone at a school
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  Speaker 1: maybe a few months ago who had an eight year
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  Speaker 1: old who was performing in their chosen activity at a
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  Speaker 1: national level. Eight years old, wow, national level. But one
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  Speaker 1: of the parents was literally saying, if you don't do X,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to pull you out of that activity. So
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  Speaker 1: really really unhelpful. Yeah, really unfair, because we've got a
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  Speaker 1: kid who's just excelling. Let that child do that stuff.
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  Speaker 1: What I was going to say, More than anything, though,
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  Speaker 1: get the kids doing lots of things. The standard path
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  Speaker 1: to excellence in any field in the early days is
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  Speaker 1: streaking ahead. But once you get into your twenties and
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  Speaker 1: your thirties and your forties, if we move the sport
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  Speaker 1: analogy into other aspects of life, it seems that having
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  Speaker 1: a wide range and a wonderful breadth of experience is
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  Speaker 1: much more likely to point you to learning the skills
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  Speaker 1: that are necessary to flourish and thrive later in life.
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  Speaker 2: Over the years, we've had lots of conversations with our
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  Speaker 2: kids about the fact that that there is no wasted
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  Speaker 2: knowledge that we acquire. We can have so many varied
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: experiences and think that because we no longer want to
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  Speaker 2: go down that particular specialty or that road, that we've
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  Speaker 2: wasted all of this time and energy. And yet as
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  Speaker 2: we go throughout life, we experience line uponline precept upon precept,
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  Speaker 2: adding to the things that we've learned previously, and they
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  Speaker 2: actually round us out to be better.
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  Speaker 1: Here, a little, there, a little, and it builds us.
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  Speaker 1: We will into that study in the show notes for
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  Speaker 1: people who are interested in that. The podcast has been
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media for the last
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: time missus Happy Families. Our executive producer has been Craig Bruce. Craig,
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  Speaker 1: thank you so much. I feel really terrible saying. For
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: more information, visit happy families dot com dot I you,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: but that's what we're going to say. We'll see tomorrow
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: on the Happy Families Podcast where we have a very
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: close look at a couple of really tricky questions that
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: people have been asking around kids, their big emotions, crying
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: in public and feeling overwhelmed. That's tomorrow on the Happy
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Families Podcast.