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[SUBSCRIBER-BONUS] How to work with Shadow Material. · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Jung Love, where we interpret dreams and answer
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: questions from our subscriber community who we appreciate so very much.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Here's the question today. What do you do with shadow material?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: And for context, they write, is it enough to just
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: become aware of your shadows, or does it require a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: fixing of oneself? What is the process of processing it.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I'm still trying to wrap my head around the shadow.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: What if I'm aware but still don't like the shadow?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Robert Johnson talked about rituals for the shadow. Can you
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: speak about that in more depth and perhaps provide some examples?
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I love the pragmatism of the question. You know, I
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: think it can be fun for me to... to think
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: about ideas and they can have such feeling for me.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: But I appreciate it when someone challenges me to say, yes,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: but on the ground, like what does that look like
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: as you're moving through the world? That's always a creative
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: application of it.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Well, it makes me want to sort of quickly address this,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: what I think is a misperception in the culture with
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff now around shadow and it's kind
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: of been a social media sensation, the idea, there's been
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: books and that kind of thing. You can't fix the shadow.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: The point is not to self-flagellate and purge your negative qualities.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: That isn't going to happen. You can't do that. So
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: some people talk about shadow almost in a puritanical way.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a long religious history of examining ourselves
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: for moral failings and then trying to rid ourselves, extirpate
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: those qualities by, I don't know, wearing a hair shirt
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: or flagellating ourselves or starving ourselves. Whatever the modern equivalent
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: of any of that might be, that's not what Jung
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: was talking about. So we can sometimes integrate some shadow material,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and that can be very vivifying and enlivening. For example,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of what I talk
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: about in my book, The Vital Spark, relates to this.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: You know, if you've never let yourself really be in
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: touch with your heart's desire, for example, if that's been
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: in the shadow because you felt you just had to
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: be dutiful. then getting in touch with what you want
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: and really claiming it and owning it and letting it
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: become an important part of your life. That's an example
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: of integrating shadow material. Not all shadow material can be integrated,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: nor there's also shadow material that shouldn't be integrated. But
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to kind of maybe correct what I
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: see as sometimes some misinformation about shadow. So Joseph, I
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: don't know, what are your thoughts?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: So I think that We first encounter shadow with very
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: specific images. For instance, you have somebody in your church
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: community and maybe they're really gossipy. I'm just going to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: make up a story.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: You just kind of catch them near the coffee and
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: they're telling stories about somebody or other all the time.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And every time you hear that behavior, it just makes
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: you bristle and you just really get annoyed and you
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: want to go over there and give that person a
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: piece of your mind. tell them how inappropriate it is.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: So the first thing about shadow is that it represents
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: some part of our own personality that we have been
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: taught not to express and to put away in some fashion.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: That can happen unconsciously so that we don't really know
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: that it's been pushed away. Or, if we're a bit older,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: we've really been scolded quite specifically for a behavior that
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: our family or our culture tells us is unacceptable. So,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the thing that we see in the other person which
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: is unacceptable is really the narrative that we use inside
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: ourselves to scold ourselves and keep ourselves away from it.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: The first question always is, okay, she's gossiping. I want
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: to go over there and yell at her. I yell
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: at myself, I suppose, every time I have an issue
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: around gossiping. In and of itself, that's not adequate. Because
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: we don't know if it actually is the gossiping that's
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: bothering you. The shadow is very, very subtle. If we
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: really look at the situation that's plucked our nerve, it
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: could be that she's telling the story about somebody who's
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: not there. It could be just that she's an extrovert.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: She's holding forth at the coffee pot, and there's four
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: other people laughing around her. And you're an introvert. And
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: you would never do something like that. You would never
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: hold forth. So maybe the shadow element is actually... being entertaining,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: being upfront, being extroverted. Maybe the person is very theatrical
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: in their presentation and you were raised in a home
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: with scientists and they just wanted the facts and none
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: of that colorful, expressive stuff. So the real thing in
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: your shadow is just how animated she is, how mellifluous
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: her voice is, how her hands are kind of moving around.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: She's telling the story. Maybe she's talking over at the
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: coffee pot, but the minister is trying to get everybody's
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: attention across the room. The real issue is, you're supposed
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: to actually pay attention to the minister. So the real
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: crime there is that she's being naughty for talking in class,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: and you were taught strictly not to talk in class.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I unpack all those different things because that same that
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: film clip, so to speak, that you're taking in your
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: mind has many different valences of events that are going on,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: any of which might pluck something in your shadow that
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: you've been told is naughty and bad. The next step,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: of course, is to then think more psychologically about the
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: behavior that you're observing so that you could identify the
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: underlying energy that's being expressed in the behavior, which then
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: could be applied in some other circumstance in a way
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: that you would find acceptable. Maybe you wouldn't apply that
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: vivacious storytelling while the minister is trying to get your attention,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: but maybe you could give yourself permission to be a
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: vivacious storyteller when you're reading a book to your grandchildren.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Really pull out the stops, bring out the voices, bring
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: out some hats. That could feel very transgressive to you
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: if being theatrical and playful is something that you were
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: scolded for. So we have to be a little bit
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: more broad in what are the many things that could
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: be bugging me about this moment. drill down into the
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: deeper energy of that and imagine are there other ways
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: or other environments where actually I would find that perfectly fine.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: You know, the other thing that I want to say
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: about shadow and what to do with shadow is that,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: you know, Joseph, that explanation of how we might find
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: shadow enlivening and enlarging it It was very thorough. But
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: there are times when it's like, no, you realize that
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: you really have some personality traits that are not so great.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe you become aware that you really tend to be envious.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: You envy people a lot. And that's not something that
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: you can put a good spin on. There you are
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: ruminating about how your best friend just bought a new house.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: And it's difficult to really turn down the volume on that.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: And you want to burn it down. To get back
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: at her. Right.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: And that kind of thing happens frequently. And you just,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: you know, you catch yourself and you try to stop,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: but you just can't. I mean, I think what's important
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: about those kinds of things is just letting ourselves know
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: that we are the ordinary person who has faults. Because
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I think we all like to go through our day thinking,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and most of us don't realize we're doing this, but
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: we go through our day thinking that we're actually better
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: than a lot of other people, that we've got our
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: shit in order. And, you know, we all have our
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: clay feet. And when we encounter our shadow, we are
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: reminded that we are fallible that we're imperfect that we
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: we may thought we had our stuff together and we
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: don't always and it's important just to let that in
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: and that should feel heavy and and somber, but not
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: laden with shame. I think that's the difference. We can
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: use those moments to shame ourselves and then we get
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: caught in a shame spiral. But there's a way that
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: being in a shame spiral is very solipsistic. It's all
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: about me, me, me. And it's more like, oh, there's that.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I'm just human. I am flawed, like maybe quite flawed.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: That's the feeling of encountering shadow. And so I think
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Some of what we do with it is just remember,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you know, it reminds me of during the coronation of
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: the emperor in ancient Rome, a slave would ride behind
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: the emperor in his chariot whispering, remember, you are mortal.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: And maybe our shadow plays that role a little bit.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: It's like, remember, you're just an ordinary person who makes
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: mistakes and has faults and sometimes can be a jerk,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: So there is the humbling reeling back of our shadow
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: and saying, yes, there is no human experience that is
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: alien to me, as the playwright Terrence wrote.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly. And so it kind of, if we
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: allow it in, it penetrates our defenses and punctures our
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: little inflations and it helps keep us real.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: And as I go down to her comments, what if
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: I'm aware but still don't like my shadow? And I
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: think that's going to what you're saying, Lisa, that there
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: are some impulses that we have that are very antisocial.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: And we have to know about them so that we
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: can take an ethical stance regarding them. Because if we
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: don't know about them, We're going to have little flares
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: of behaving in that fashion and not catching it. But
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: believe me, other people will catch it. So if we
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: have that trait envy, which all of us have in
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: greater or lesser degrees, and you find yourself making barbed comments,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: or that your friends are a little nervous to tell
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: you that, they've just bought something new and you can
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: kind of feel that they're just a little shy about
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: telling you they got a new car. They're just going
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: to go off on a vacation. Maybe it will be
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: is because you lob like little blow darts in their
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: direction when they say things like that. Maybe they kind
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: of don't notice it, but they really do notice it.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: And so they're a, There are things that we'll do
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: that are provocative, just below the threshold of awareness, and
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: then just walk away feeling, why doesn't anybody tell me
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: anything that's going on? Yeah, because you're the one that
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: pinches everyone every time they do it.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Right, yes.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Another fun exercise, I think Robert Johnson may be the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: one who mentions it, is you want to know something
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: about your shadow, ask your friends. Mm-hmm. Ask your friends
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: or ask your family.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Jim Hollis says, you want to know about your shadow,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: ask your spouse.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Which are the small or great antisocial things that slip
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: right past our monitors that are having free reign. So
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: for us to be able to say, wow, I really,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I am that person that does that. Then you have
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: a point of choice.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Yes. I like what you said about an ethical stance.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: And the truth is, for example, if you do find
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: yourself always feeling envious, you're not going to like that.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And it may not go away. But if you're conscious
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: of it, you can take an ethical stance, like you're saying.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: So you may be able to not act it out
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: all the time. You probably still will act it out some.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: But you can be more conscious, and that gives you
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the chance to make choices.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.