Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #542 Jason Flom with Nicholas Allen

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#542 Jason Flom with Nicholas Allen · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On February sixth, twenty eleven, a party in a queen's
0:06
Speaker 1: New York basement turned violent, and when those involved were
0:10
Speaker 1: forced out into the exit stairwell, two gunshots were fired
0:14
Speaker 1: into the door, fatally striking twenty six year old Avalisa Morris.
0:21
Speaker 1: The police were soon directed toward a couple Felicia Douglas
0:25
Speaker 1: and O'Neill Mayers, whose argument allegedly ignited the fray. Even
0:30
Speaker 1: though O'Neill claims to have left before the gunshots and
0:34
Speaker 1: didn't match the initial descriptions of the likely shooter, he
0:37
Speaker 1: was arrested and tried, along with his friend Nicholas Allen,
0:41
Speaker 1: who had left the party hours before the shooting. This
0:46
Speaker 1: is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can
0:55
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
0:57
Speaker 1: one week early and ad free subscribing to Lava for
1:01
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction,
1:13
Speaker 1: where our guest is calling in from the country of
1:16
Speaker 1: Jamaica to tell us about a case that happened near
1:19
Speaker 1: Jamaica Queens and started with an absolutely senseless act of
1:23
Speaker 1: violence which was then compounded by convicting at least one,
1:27
Speaker 1: if not two innocent men, one of them being Nicholas Brucky. Allen, welcome,
1:32
Speaker 1: Thank you, all right. So tell us about growing up
1:34
Speaker 1: in Jamaica and coming to the US.
1:37
Speaker 2: I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. I got four sisters
1:40
Speaker 2: and three brothers. Two of them was like babies, and
1:43
Speaker 2: one of them was born while I was in the States,
1:45
Speaker 2: so I didn't really actually grew up with those three.
1:48
Speaker 2: I came to the stage when I was like twelve.
1:50
Speaker 2: So I just remember where I used to live in Jamaica.
1:54
Speaker 2: It was like a soccer field next.
1:56
Speaker 3: To my home. Soccer was just my love.
2:00
Speaker 2: If my friend's playing on the street bearfooted, I will
2:03
Speaker 2: go out there and also play bearfooted.
2:06
Speaker 1: So where did the nickname Brockie come from?
2:09
Speaker 2: In Jamaican culture, we call dribble brooke when you cross
2:15
Speaker 2: somebody that's basically you brooking everybody. Basically Brookie is somebody
2:21
Speaker 2: that does just love to dribble and don't like the past.
2:24
Speaker 3: And it's funny because when I.
2:26
Speaker 2: Got to the States, my first team, Cambria Heights, it
2:30
Speaker 2: was a lady that first called me Brookie.
2:32
Speaker 3: I never told her that was my nickname. In Jamaica.
2:35
Speaker 3: I never told her that. She just watched me. She
2:36
Speaker 3: was like, yo, you was a Brookie and.
2:38
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's what they called me in Jamaica.
2:41
Speaker 3: That's my name.
2:42
Speaker 1: But it wasn't soccer that brought him to New York.
2:44
Speaker 2: At the age of eleven, I was diagnosed with you
2:47
Speaker 2: and star a coma. It was a form of cancer.
2:50
Speaker 2: This was like around two thousand. I started off getting
2:53
Speaker 2: treatment in Jamaica, but my auntie came into the States
2:58
Speaker 2: and on the teaching program. She went to the courts
3:01
Speaker 2: with my dad and my mom did the legal guardianship.
3:05
Speaker 3: So the lawyer told.
3:06
Speaker 2: Her when you're in the States and you get your
3:08
Speaker 2: green card, he's going to get his. When you become
3:10
Speaker 2: a citizen, he will become citizen. So she had took
3:14
Speaker 2: me into the States. I did chemoturpy. I had no hair,
3:17
Speaker 2: so I used to wear a lot of door rags
3:19
Speaker 2: a lot of time. When I used to play soccer,
3:21
Speaker 2: it was like I was the sick on. Everybody was
3:23
Speaker 2: just looking at me. But that never stopped me. I
3:27
Speaker 2: play hard. I went to Automotive High School. My own
3:30
Speaker 2: was a teacher at the school. But yo, they never
3:33
Speaker 2: seen the playoff until I came. When I came, took
3:36
Speaker 2: them the playoff the whole four years.
3:38
Speaker 3: That I was there. I graduated.
3:41
Speaker 2: Then from there I got in a soccer scholarship to
3:44
Speaker 2: Globe College. Went for a year and a half and
3:48
Speaker 2: that's when I got arrested.
3:50
Speaker 1: And he was arrested along with another young Jamaican man
3:53
Speaker 1: named O'Neill Mayers.
3:55
Speaker 2: I met Mayors through guys from my soccer team. They
3:59
Speaker 2: were quit mars at Walmart. When I first met him,
4:03
Speaker 2: I never get any bad vibes. I see that he
4:07
Speaker 2: always works to take care of his son. You know,
4:10
Speaker 2: I'm on college and stuff, so I used to love parties,
4:14
Speaker 2: so you know, me and Mirors sometimes will go to parties.
4:18
Speaker 1: And that's what was happening at the time of this
4:20
Speaker 1: tragic shooting. O'Neill's supervisor at Walmart, Damian Skurvin, had planned
4:25
Speaker 1: a party for his wife Nikki at their friend Mary
4:27
Speaker 1: Johnson's apartment on February fifth, twenty eleven, even though there
4:31
Speaker 1: was a competing party nearby at Nicholas's friend named Pouchi
4:35
Speaker 1: Poochie's house. Both O'Neill and Nicholas were drawn to the
4:38
Speaker 1: Skurvans party to see two girls who they had met
4:41
Speaker 1: the night before, one of whom Britney Goodrich later testified.
4:45
Speaker 1: Now this previous night, February fourth, they were up really late,
4:49
Speaker 1: leading to a midday nap for O'Neil that nearly lasted
4:52
Speaker 1: through both parties on February fifth. But Nicholas was close
4:55
Speaker 1: with Poochie's boyfriend Gabby Francis, so he made sure he
4:59
Speaker 1: was at Pooci's.
5:00
Speaker 2: So when I got there, I was pretty much helping
5:02
Speaker 2: him decoration, helping, cooking the food, stuff like that. So
5:06
Speaker 2: around twelve midnight, I pull up my friends Cafarri, Samuel,
5:10
Speaker 2: Dwayne Right, Gabby Francis, and Dennis Cunningham, and I told him, oh, listen,
5:16
Speaker 2: Damien is having a birthday party for his wife tonight.
5:20
Speaker 2: Y'all want to go support, and they agreed. They call
5:23
Speaker 2: a cab. I got there around twelve ish and I
5:26
Speaker 2: left like early one. When we got there, I saw
5:29
Speaker 2: Brittany dancing under the light. The only spot in the
5:32
Speaker 2: basement had light was where the DJ booth was at,
5:35
Speaker 2: So I went right up to Brittany. I asked her
5:37
Speaker 2: how she's doing. I told her I'm not staying. My
5:39
Speaker 2: people have a party, so I'm leaving. She put her
5:42
Speaker 2: number with my phone and I never seen mirrors at
5:46
Speaker 2: that party. Never Me and Mirrs was not together. It
5:49
Speaker 2: was my four friends and we left in a cab
5:52
Speaker 2: back to Pucci party. For the rest of the night,
5:55
Speaker 2: we drink, dance, we took pictures. One of the girls
5:57
Speaker 2: over there took a picture with me and around the
6:00
Speaker 2: same time as.
6:01
Speaker 1: The incident, it was just about eight minutes after the
6:04
Speaker 1: shooting when Nicholas took a picture with Vanessa Bunton on
6:07
Speaker 1: a digital camera. Now remember this was twenty eleven when
6:09
Speaker 1: folks were still transitioning from flip phones, iPods and cameras
6:13
Speaker 1: to the all in one smartphone that's now ubiquitous. But anyway,
6:17
Speaker 1: we'll get back to Vanessa Bunton and this picture in
6:19
Speaker 1: a bit. So let's rewind to about three o'clock in
6:23
Speaker 1: the morning.
6:24
Speaker 2: Around three on he called me saying, yo, you just
6:27
Speaker 2: got up. He's gonna go to Damien wife's Porty Nikki
6:31
Speaker 2: on his block because the party actually kept on his block.
6:33
Speaker 2: So I said, oh yeah, I was there earlier.
6:36
Speaker 3: And I got Brittany number. That was it. Around a
6:39
Speaker 3: little bit before five.
6:41
Speaker 2: He called me back again, saying the party got shoot up,
6:43
Speaker 2: asked if I was still at Pucci I said yes,
6:45
Speaker 2: and he said I'm coming right now. When he came,
6:48
Speaker 2: he sat in the car and he told me the
6:50
Speaker 2: girl that he was talking to the day before. He
6:53
Speaker 2: was talking to her and his girlfriend came over slapped him,
6:58
Speaker 2: and out of a reflex, he slapped her back and
7:02
Speaker 2: she went outside crying and stuff. He also said he
7:05
Speaker 2: noticed the commotions at the door. He said the DJ
7:08
Speaker 2: got into it with somebody and he just pushed through
7:11
Speaker 2: the commotions and left. While he got to the front
7:14
Speaker 2: of the house, he said he heard gunshots and he
7:16
Speaker 2: just ran home, jump in his car, called me and
7:18
Speaker 2: came to me at Pouci's.
7:20
Speaker 1: To exit the basement, O'Neill left through the back door
7:23
Speaker 1: to a covered stairwall that led to the backyard, where
7:25
Speaker 1: his girlfriend Felicia Douglass and her friend Vanessa Edwards claimed
7:29
Speaker 1: to have seen him, which he doesn't deny. What he
7:32
Speaker 1: does deny is going back down the stairwell and shooting
7:36
Speaker 1: at the door. Now. According to the initial police reports,
7:38
Speaker 1: also known as DV five's, the guest of honor, Nicki
7:41
Speaker 1: Scurvin the host Mary Johnson, as well as the victim
7:45
Speaker 1: of Alisa Morris, pushed a group of three or four
7:47
Speaker 1: young men out into the back stairwell and slammed the door,
7:50
Speaker 1: and the group tried to force their way back in.
7:53
Speaker 2: I heard that she used her back to prevent the
7:56
Speaker 2: guys from coming back and said and shot fired and
8:00
Speaker 2: mis Kelly hit her in their head. When the cops
8:02
Speaker 2: had just came Mary Johnson's she identified a tall, light
8:06
Speaker 2: skin with braids in his.
8:07
Speaker 1: Thirties, which doesn't describe O'Neill or Nicholas.
8:12
Speaker 2: Also, NICKI Scurvin the morning off the crime. When the
8:15
Speaker 2: cops came in our DD five, she never mentioned O'Neill.
8:18
Speaker 2: Mayers never mentioned me at all.
8:19
Speaker 1: But both of those statements would change by the time
8:22
Speaker 1: of the grand jury and trial, as would pretty much
8:25
Speaker 1: everyone else's statements, including O'Neill's girlfriend Felicia Douglas and her
8:30
Speaker 1: friend Vanessa Edwards. Now. In their first statements, they said
8:33
Speaker 1: that they had seen O'Neill emerge from the coupvered stairwell,
8:36
Speaker 1: which is undisputed, but was it before or after the
8:40
Speaker 1: gunshots well? Either way, Felicia texted O'Neill after giving her statement.
8:46
Speaker 2: So we were still in the car, he got a
8:48
Speaker 2: text from his girlfriend saying that such and such a
8:51
Speaker 2: diet and you and your friend Brookie did it. So
8:55
Speaker 2: he showed me the texts. I'm like, what the hell
8:57
Speaker 2: is she talking about?
8:57
Speaker 3: You know?
8:58
Speaker 2: But I looked at Mayer's face. I could see like
9:00
Speaker 2: a worried look. So he tried to call her. She
9:03
Speaker 2: answered on the fifth call, and she was just crying.
9:07
Speaker 2: He said, Yo, what's going on? Why you send me
9:09
Speaker 2: that text? So she was like, they made me do it,
9:13
Speaker 2: They made me do it. So he said, why would
9:15
Speaker 2: you tell the police?
9:16
Speaker 3: I did nothing? Why do you tell the police? Go
9:18
Speaker 3: tell the police. I didn't do nothing.
9:20
Speaker 2: We had found out later on that basically the friends
9:23
Speaker 2: of the victim tell her, yo, listen, you and your
9:25
Speaker 2: man came here and mess up my party, so you
9:27
Speaker 2: better go tell the cops that he did that. That's
9:30
Speaker 2: when she had gave the police on ill number.
9:33
Speaker 1: But with no views through the stairwells covering the basement
9:37
Speaker 1: door or any meaningful ballistics evidence, no witnesses or experts
9:41
Speaker 1: could claim to know who pulled the trigger, and without
9:44
Speaker 1: the ever important timing aspect had O'Neil been seen before
9:48
Speaker 1: or after the gunshots, and with no other names being
9:51
Speaker 1: mentioned besides O'Neil, he became the target.
9:54
Speaker 3: So we were still in the car. He looked distressed.
9:58
Speaker 2: A few minutes later, a detective by the name of
10:00
Speaker 2: Pearson called him saying that he's a person of interest
10:04
Speaker 2: and they would like to speak with him. So he said,
10:06
Speaker 2: all right, no doubt, I'm coming in right now. So
10:08
Speaker 2: I stayed and I waited for him to come back,
10:11
Speaker 2: and he never came back.
10:13
Speaker 1: O'Neill was arrested, and since no one could actually see
10:17
Speaker 1: the shooting, they used the circumstances. Someone had to place
10:21
Speaker 1: a gun in his hand in the stairwell at the
10:23
Speaker 1: time of the crime. So by the grand jury, Vanessa
10:27
Speaker 1: Edwards testified that when O'Neill first emerged from the stairwell,
10:30
Speaker 1: he had a gun in his hand. Then the group
10:33
Speaker 1: went back down the covered stairwell and shots were fired. However,
10:37
Speaker 1: Felicia's story changed in a different way.
10:40
Speaker 2: The two statements that she gave to the cops. She
10:43
Speaker 2: was saying that she saw Onneila ran up the steps.
10:46
Speaker 2: The other statement she had said that she just said
10:50
Speaker 2: this because she was mad, because Onlyla had slapped her.
10:53
Speaker 2: She also made a statement to one's lawyer saying that
10:58
Speaker 2: she was mad and was also forced by the victim
11:02
Speaker 2: friends tell the cops that she saw on it ran
11:05
Speaker 2: up the steps, and she also made a statement to
11:09
Speaker 2: my attorney saying that she never even seen me that
11:12
Speaker 2: whole night.
11:13
Speaker 1: And at this point, neither Vanessa Edwards, Nicki Scurvin, nor
11:18
Speaker 1: Mary Johnson had mentioned Nicholas, only Felicia had done so
11:22
Speaker 1: in that text that she now just disavowed. Vanessa Edwards
11:27
Speaker 1: also maintained that she hadn't seen Nicholas since earlier in
11:30
Speaker 1: the evening. But Nicholas becomes involved because during the month
11:34
Speaker 1: following the shooting, O'Neil had let Nicholas his car.
11:37
Speaker 2: So a month later I noticed an unmarked car following me.
11:41
Speaker 2: They passed me, came in front of me, made a
11:44
Speaker 2: sound stop, forcing me to stop. Then they jumped up
11:48
Speaker 2: and it was just police everywhere, guns everywhere.
11:52
Speaker 3: Move Move, motherfuckers. I could shoot you. Move. So I'm like,
11:54
Speaker 3: I'm not moving. I'm not moving.
11:56
Speaker 2: They dragged me out of car, put my face on
11:59
Speaker 2: the ground with the knee in my face. Detective Pearson
12:02
Speaker 2: came in, got me and brought me to one thirteen.
12:04
Speaker 1: Percent, and this detective Timothy Pearson, recently served as a
12:08
Speaker 1: top aid to New York City Mayor Eric Adams. Apparently
12:12
Speaker 1: they go way back, and he has faced or is
12:14
Speaker 1: currently facing allegations ranging from corruption, pay the play schemes,
12:18
Speaker 1: as well as rape and other sexual misconduct. But there's
12:21
Speaker 1: no known history of wrongful convictions, that is until now.
12:26
Speaker 2: So when I got to one thirteen percint, they asked me,
12:28
Speaker 2: do you know why I'm here? I'm like, maybe because
12:30
Speaker 2: I was driving my friend's car and he was charged
12:33
Speaker 2: for murder. They said yes, but there is more. The
12:36
Speaker 2: car was seen leaving the scene that waitness saw me
12:39
Speaker 2: and O'Neill together that night, So I said, no, that
12:42
Speaker 2: can't be true. So he said, O'Neill said I was
12:45
Speaker 2: with him that.
12:45
Speaker 1: Night, which yes, they were together, but only after the
12:49
Speaker 1: shooting when they met up at Pucci's house. Now, always
12:53
Speaker 1: remember it is legal for the police to lie or mislead.
12:57
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that'll change someday, but that's the way it is.
13:00
Speaker 1: And the reality here was that Nicholas and O'Neill had
13:04
Speaker 1: been calling each other before they actually met up.
13:07
Speaker 3: So I'm like, I have.
13:08
Speaker 2: Proof in my phone that we was actually calling each other.
13:11
Speaker 2: If you check my call log, you could see recent
13:13
Speaker 2: call and only called me at three, and he called
13:17
Speaker 2: me also at five. It was like a tow way phone.
13:20
Speaker 2: It was a Walmart phone. So the only thing that
13:22
Speaker 2: phone could prove is the recent call. So I don't
13:25
Speaker 2: know if they did check or not, but my phone
13:28
Speaker 2: end up disappearing, right. I told my lawyer about the phone,
13:32
Speaker 2: and they told my lawyer in evidence.
13:35
Speaker 3: Right days past, my lawyer tried.
13:37
Speaker 2: To get the phone back again and they said the
13:40
Speaker 2: phone disappeared. The phone can be found.
13:43
Speaker 1: I mean, why let perfectly good exculpatory evidence get in
13:46
Speaker 1: the way of what appears to be manufactured evidence. This
13:51
Speaker 1: came in the form of another alleged partygoer, the upstairs neighbor,
13:55
Speaker 1: a guy named Richard Bennett. For the first time, he
13:58
Speaker 1: claimed to have seen the alleged sailants being pushed out
14:01
Speaker 1: of the basement back door. Never mind that from where
14:04
Speaker 1: he said he was standing, he couldn't have seen that door.
14:08
Speaker 1: Then he said he ran upstairs to his apartment. This
14:11
Speaker 1: is a two family home, so he had to go
14:14
Speaker 1: out Mary Johnson's front door outside to access his own
14:17
Speaker 1: front door, and he claimed that this is when he
14:20
Speaker 1: saw three alleged assailants. And now he was at the
14:23
Speaker 1: precinct of view a lineup featuring Nicholas.
14:27
Speaker 2: He was seeing a Facebook photo off me minutes before
14:32
Speaker 2: the lineup. This same guy testified at a grandjury that
14:36
Speaker 2: I have a tattoo on the right side of my neck.
14:38
Speaker 2: This same guy said that when me and Oni got
14:41
Speaker 2: to the front of the house, he said a point
14:43
Speaker 2: a gun in his face. He said, I said to him,
14:45
Speaker 2: what's you're looking at, motherfucker? And while he was looking
14:48
Speaker 2: at me, he saw a tattoo on my neck, with words,
14:51
Speaker 2: I don't have no tattoo, never have a tattoo on me.
14:54
Speaker 1: Ever, nevertheless, now Panessa Edwards and Richard Bennett both placed
14:59
Speaker 1: O'Neill and the at the scene with guns in their hands.
15:02
Speaker 2: They charged us with acting in concert.
15:05
Speaker 3: I was arraigned.
15:06
Speaker 2: I had a bunch of people in court that was
15:08
Speaker 2: there with me at Pucci house. It looked like the
15:11
Speaker 2: judge were considering to give me a bill until the
15:14
Speaker 2: district attorney jumped up and said, judge, the victim family
15:17
Speaker 2: scared for their life, and the judge was like, no bill,
15:21
Speaker 2: you know, so I was sent to rakas Allen. It
15:25
Speaker 2: was a new experience for me, so I had to
15:28
Speaker 2: adapt fast.
15:30
Speaker 3: I was young. I was like in the jungle.
15:32
Speaker 2: I was like around some wild kids that's probably been
15:35
Speaker 2: to jail more than my fingers, you know.
15:53
Speaker 1: Nicholas spent three long, miserable years in pre trial detention
15:58
Speaker 1: on the Notori Complex, not as Riker's Island, which is
16:03
Speaker 1: just fucking wild. I mean, from March twenty eleven to
16:07
Speaker 1: November twenty fourteen, not convicted of a freaking thing. This
16:13
Speaker 1: was around the same time that Khalif Browder, by the
16:15
Speaker 1: Way Rest in Peace was there for three years pre
16:18
Speaker 1: trial as well. We're going to link to the Kaliff
16:21
Speaker 1: Browder documentary in the episode description. Well, luckily Nicholas was
16:25
Speaker 1: able to survive this ordeal, unlike Khalif. But meanwhile, on
16:28
Speaker 1: the outside, O'Neil and Nicholas's attorneys had three years to
16:32
Speaker 1: prepare for cross examinations, and despite Nicholas's phone just magically disappearing,
16:38
Speaker 1: he still had his alibi, witnesses and the picture with
16:41
Speaker 1: Vanessa Punton, placing him a fifteen minute drive away from
16:45
Speaker 1: Mary Johnson's just about eight minutes after the shooting. The
16:48
Speaker 1: only issue was that in the digital cameras settings AM
16:53
Speaker 1: had been flipped with PM.
16:54
Speaker 2: Well, my lawyer was telling me that even though the
16:57
Speaker 2: time stamp it's saying PM instead of M. When it's
17:00
Speaker 2: time for trial, he would get Vanessa to come and
17:03
Speaker 2: testify for.
17:04
Speaker 1: The grand jury. Only the photo was entered into evidence.
17:07
Speaker 1: In addition, his friend Gabby Francis testified that he was
17:10
Speaker 1: with Nicholas all night, including when they had gone to
17:13
Speaker 1: the Scurvins party and back to Poocies, but Britney Goodrich,
17:17
Speaker 1: the girl that had traded phone numbers with him, She
17:19
Speaker 1: claimed that Nicholas had returned later on in the morning.
17:22
Speaker 2: There was a weakness go by the name of Larissa White.
17:26
Speaker 2: She also wrote a statement the morning of the crime.
17:29
Speaker 2: She also testified in a grand jury, and her testimony
17:33
Speaker 2: was that when the shot rang out, she was upstairs
17:36
Speaker 2: with Britney Goodrich looking for their coats to leave. So
17:40
Speaker 2: she contradicts Brittany because Brittany said she was down in
17:43
Speaker 2: the basement when the shots rang out and that's the
17:45
Speaker 2: last time she saw me.
17:47
Speaker 1: Vanessa Edwards also testified that the last time she saw
17:50
Speaker 1: Nicholas was earlier in the night, which also impeached Brittany,
17:54
Speaker 1: as well as Nicki Skurvin and Mary Johnson's new statements,
17:57
Speaker 1: which now aligned with the state's narrative.
18:00
Speaker 3: D five statement.
18:01
Speaker 2: As Mary Johnson, she gave to the cops she identified
18:04
Speaker 2: a tall, light skin with braids in his thirties. That
18:08
Speaker 2: was just disregarded. So my lawyer let her know that
18:13
Speaker 2: he's not tall, he's not light skin, and you know
18:16
Speaker 2: what I'm saying.
18:16
Speaker 3: So her thing was that it was me. I was there.
18:19
Speaker 2: Also, Nicki Scurvin, minutes after the situation, she never mentioned
18:23
Speaker 2: ONeill Mayors. She never mentioned me at all. It was
18:26
Speaker 2: at the Grand Jewelry when she mentioned O'Neill and me.
18:29
Speaker 2: Then in the first trial, Mary Johnson she said, my
18:32
Speaker 2: hair was basically braided up with rubber bands at the tip,
18:36
Speaker 2: wearing a jeans jacket with a gray shirt. That's was
18:39
Speaker 2: not my appearance that night. The picture that I took
18:42
Speaker 2: showed a different appearance. Everybody put me into a different clothing, earstyle.
18:46
Speaker 2: Everybody description was just off, but hers was funny and ridiculous.
18:52
Speaker 1: So despite photographic evidence of the contrary, Mary Johnson and
18:56
Speaker 1: Nicki Scurvin supported the state's trial narrative, which was that
19:00
Speaker 1: after O'Neill and Felicia traded slaps, that O'Neill, Nicholas, and
19:05
Speaker 1: two others were forced to leave the party by the victim,
19:08
Speaker 1: as well as Mary Johnson and Nicki Scurvin.
19:11
Speaker 3: Nicki's Curvin.
19:12
Speaker 2: She testified that she went to you gotta go because
19:15
Speaker 2: you and your girl messed up my party.
19:17
Speaker 3: And she said.
19:18
Speaker 2: One'll tell her leave me alone. And while she grabbed him,
19:21
Speaker 2: she said, he like swring her hands off him. And
19:24
Speaker 2: as he did that, she said she saw something that
19:27
Speaker 2: appears to be a gun in his waist. When she
19:29
Speaker 2: saw the gun, she said, ONeill said, yo, leave me alone.
19:32
Speaker 2: You want to mess with badman. Don't mess with badman.
19:35
Speaker 2: That's the Jamaican term saying that, don't mess with the gangster.
19:39
Speaker 3: So she said.
19:40
Speaker 2: Other people came in shove shove him out. So they
19:43
Speaker 2: asked her what I was doing. She said, I was
19:45
Speaker 2: just there. She said, she got us out, closed the door.
19:48
Speaker 2: As we're trying to bang the door to come back in,
19:51
Speaker 2: the door cracked open and she saw my face, so
19:54
Speaker 2: she put.
19:55
Speaker 3: Me on the scene.
19:56
Speaker 1: Then Vanessa Edwards stuck with her initial statement about O'Neil
20:00
Speaker 1: emerging from the stairwell, but this time she added a
20:03
Speaker 1: gun and more.
20:04
Speaker 2: She testified that she saw one ran up the steps
20:08
Speaker 2: with a gun in his hand with about four guys,
20:11
Speaker 2: and the four guys ran back down the steps. She
20:15
Speaker 2: heard the shots, and then the guys walked back up
20:18
Speaker 2: and ran down the driveway. So Maloya asked her, did
20:22
Speaker 2: she ever saw my face before? She said yes, she
20:24
Speaker 2: saw me that night talking to Brittany. Did you see
20:27
Speaker 2: him run up the steps with those group of guys?
20:29
Speaker 3: She said no.
20:30
Speaker 2: Last time she saw me was the time that I
20:32
Speaker 2: was talking to Brittany, and she never saw me back that.
20:34
Speaker 1: Night, which contradicts Mary Johnson and Nikki Scurvin, who claimed
20:38
Speaker 1: to have seen Nicholas's face when Ava Lisa Morris slammed
20:41
Speaker 1: the door shut on the four men before two gun
20:44
Speaker 1: shots were fired through the door.
20:46
Speaker 2: There was a hole that's higher and there's another lower hole.
20:50
Speaker 2: The ballistic detective he was trying to say, I fired
20:54
Speaker 2: the lower hole and because one was taller, he fired
20:58
Speaker 2: the higher hole. So like this is just your speculations
21:03
Speaker 2: or this is a fact. He said, no, it's just
21:06
Speaker 2: in speculating. So Maloya ax him.
21:09
Speaker 3: Was it one gun? Was it two gun?
21:11
Speaker 2: Did they fire one gun and gave it to the
21:13
Speaker 2: other one and the other one fired?
21:14
Speaker 3: What was it?
21:15
Speaker 2: So he couldn't answer, So it was just based off
21:17
Speaker 2: of his speculations.
21:19
Speaker 1: And what appears to be wishful thinking to nab two
21:22
Speaker 1: gunmen for the price of one, when in actuality, what
21:26
Speaker 1: they had were two forty five caliber shell cases believed
21:29
Speaker 1: to have been fired from a semi automatic weapon, which
21:31
Speaker 1: simply could have been fired from different angles. But they
21:35
Speaker 1: continued right along with the two shooter theory, putting Richard
21:38
Speaker 1: Bennett on the stand, and he proceeded to impeach himself twice,
21:43
Speaker 1: first claiming that he was at the front side of
21:45
Speaker 1: the basement about to head up the stairs when he'd
21:47
Speaker 1: seen o, Neil and Nicholas being forced out the back door,
21:49
Speaker 1: but there was a structure, a bathroom that had been
21:53
Speaker 1: built between those two points and it was blocking his
21:55
Speaker 1: view of the back door. And then came self sabotage
21:58
Speaker 1: number two, when he claimed to have gone upstairs and
22:01
Speaker 1: out the front door.
22:03
Speaker 2: So he said, while he was outside opening the door,
22:06
Speaker 2: he said he saw me and Onneil. He said, I
22:09
Speaker 2: said to him, what's you looking at motherfucker pointing the
22:11
Speaker 2: gun in his face. And he was asked, did you say, mister,
22:14
Speaker 2: and you saw a tattoo on his neck?
22:16
Speaker 3: Yes, he got a tattoo on his neck.
22:18
Speaker 2: So when I took the stand, my lawyer asked me
22:20
Speaker 2: to show my neck, and I don't have no tattoo,
22:23
Speaker 2: never have a tattoo on me ever, But Bennett was
22:27
Speaker 2: certain that he saw a tattoo and it was in words.
22:30
Speaker 1: Then Gabby Francis teestified that Nicholas had been with him
22:33
Speaker 1: all night and therefore unavailable for this crime. The picture
22:38
Speaker 1: with Vanessa Bunden was also presented, which not only impeached
22:41
Speaker 1: all the hair and clothing descriptions, but also corroborated his alibi,
22:45
Speaker 1: placing him a fifteen minute drive away right about eight
22:49
Speaker 1: minutes after the shooting. And instead of attacking the incorrect
22:52
Speaker 1: AMPM setting up the timestamp, the district attorney, Denise Tarini,
22:56
Speaker 1: took a different tact.
22:58
Speaker 2: She was trying to say that I did the crime
23:00
Speaker 2: and a rush to Puccios. So her argument was like, yes, judge,
23:05
Speaker 2: he knew what he was doing. He did that, and
23:08
Speaker 2: then he rushed over there and say, let me take
23:10
Speaker 2: a picture to show that I was here.
23:12
Speaker 1: So let's recap. Vanessa Edwards contradicted Scurvin, Johnson and Bennett,
23:17
Speaker 1: while Bennett proceeded to impeach himself even more. And then
23:22
Speaker 1: there was the worthless ballistics speculation, followed by Ada Denise
23:28
Speaker 1: Terini's own worthless speculation about the photo. But still some
23:34
Speaker 1: jurors they just wanted to believe in their guilt.
23:37
Speaker 2: We went for deliberation and we was in the bullpen
23:41
Speaker 2: and it was just a wall separating us from the
23:45
Speaker 2: deliberation room, so we could actually hear the juries like
23:49
Speaker 2: raising their voice cursing like I.
23:52
Speaker 3: Don't give a fuck.
23:53
Speaker 2: He did not do it, he caunnot see, he cannot
23:56
Speaker 2: see through the bathroom.
23:58
Speaker 3: I don't give a fuck.
23:59
Speaker 2: So me and Oni like we got elated because we
24:03
Speaker 2: were like damn people in there fighting for us. The
24:05
Speaker 2: verdict came back, they said, judge, we can't decide, and
24:09
Speaker 2: it was a hang jury. The child would have to
24:12
Speaker 2: go over again.
24:13
Speaker 3: And it was like mixed.
24:15
Speaker 2: Feeling because like I was happy and I was said
24:18
Speaker 2: because I was sent back to rack as Allen, and
24:21
Speaker 2: also I felt like all right, no, we know what
24:25
Speaker 2: was said.
24:25
Speaker 3: So next time it would be better.
24:27
Speaker 1: But the district attorney also observed what worked and what
24:31
Speaker 1: clearly did not. So eight months later, at the second trial,
24:35
Speaker 1: Vanessa Edwards needed to not contradict half the state's witnesses,
24:40
Speaker 1: most of whom had previously testified about how dark it
24:43
Speaker 1: had been in the basement, thereby making it difficult to see,
24:47
Speaker 1: so that part of the narrative needed to change. And
24:50
Speaker 1: then Richard Bennett needed to try to somehow deflect from
24:54
Speaker 1: his previous self sabotage and focus solely on identifying Nicholas.
25:00
Speaker 2: My second trial started and Richard Bennon he was the
25:04
Speaker 2: first witness call to the stand, right, so eight months
25:08
Speaker 2: later he trying to say that, you don't remember saying
25:11
Speaker 2: no tattoo.
25:11
Speaker 3: You don't remember saying that.
25:13
Speaker 2: So you know, we did read backs from the first
25:15
Speaker 2: trial and grand jury acting him, do you remember saying, yeah,
25:18
Speaker 2: witness point of gun in my face had a tattoo
25:20
Speaker 2: on his right side of his neck. And then that's
25:23
Speaker 2: when he was like, yeah, I remember saying that. But
25:25
Speaker 2: he came back in the second trial trying to say,
25:28
Speaker 2: you don't remember saying it. District attorney disregard that old tattoo.
25:32
Speaker 2: She said, first of all, Richard Bennon was not identifying
25:36
Speaker 2: a tattoo. He was identifying my face. And she was like,
25:40
Speaker 2: so what what if he thought he saw a tattoo.
25:43
Speaker 2: So she disregarded that whole thing, and she asked him
25:47
Speaker 2: about the lighting.
25:48
Speaker 3: He said it was dark. It was dark.
25:50
Speaker 2: It was dark, and she become frustrated. Now you know,
25:55
Speaker 2: in the first trial that was like a big thing
25:58
Speaker 2: for my side, were trying to prove, like, yo, is
26:01
Speaker 2: a party, it's pretty much dark.
26:03
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, the DJ have light.
26:05
Speaker 2: In the second trial, the district attorney.
26:07
Speaker 3: She lit up the whole place. It was so bright.
26:11
Speaker 2: She was like Christmas lights was in the basement. Light
26:14
Speaker 2: was shining from outside coming into the basement.
26:16
Speaker 3: She was lit up the whole place.
26:18
Speaker 2: That's why the ballistic detective came back and started testifying
26:21
Speaker 2: about lights. So Monmoy was like, Yo, you supposed to
26:26
Speaker 2: be testifying about ballistic evidence. Why are you coming here
26:29
Speaker 2: testifying about lights? You never said that in your first child.
26:31
Speaker 2: Why are you coming here talking about the light.
26:33
Speaker 1: So it appears that testifying about the lights was a
26:36
Speaker 1: better use of this expert than his speculations. In addition,
26:40
Speaker 1: Mary Johnson and Nicki Scurvin steered away from the erroneous
26:44
Speaker 1: hair and clothing descriptions and focused instead on making the
26:47
Speaker 1: IDs and placing a gun on O'Neill.
26:50
Speaker 2: In the second trial, Nickiy Scurvy she was more sturdy.
26:55
Speaker 2: Her husband actually came also in the second trial and
26:58
Speaker 2: testify on RBA testify and said she was drunk. He
27:02
Speaker 2: said one time he was trying to talk to her,
27:04
Speaker 2: she couldn't even recognize him.
27:05
Speaker 3: She was up in his face. So he testified that
27:08
Speaker 3: she was actually drunk.
27:10
Speaker 1: But that impeachment mattered a little less when Vanessa Edwards
27:14
Speaker 1: took the stand to place o'neel at the scene with
27:16
Speaker 1: a gun and was careful not to clear Nicholas again,
27:19
Speaker 1: thereby impeaching the other state's witnesses.
27:22
Speaker 2: My lawyer asked her the same thing again. Was I
27:25
Speaker 2: in the group? She said she don't know, because she
27:28
Speaker 2: wasn't looking at face and she was just looking at
27:30
Speaker 2: the gun that Meares had in his hand. You could
27:33
Speaker 2: tell that she was coached by the district attorney. My
27:36
Speaker 2: lawyer picked that up throughout the whole trial because they
27:38
Speaker 2: was like button heads.
27:40
Speaker 3: They was literally arguing.
27:42
Speaker 2: I remember incident my girlfriend came in and told me, oh,
27:45
Speaker 2: mister Mitchell just cursed out mister Reno. He told her
27:49
Speaker 2: that you're trying to set up my client. You're trying
27:50
Speaker 2: to send my client to jail, not over my dead body.
27:52
Speaker 2: And it was a big argument in the elevator. It
27:55
Speaker 2: was just so crazy because you sit down in your
27:58
Speaker 2: first child here thing, and then when it comes to
28:01
Speaker 2: the second child, the whole testimony just changed and flips.
28:05
Speaker 1: But there were at least two witnesses in addition to
28:07
Speaker 1: Gabby Francis that could have helped the defense. One was
28:10
Speaker 1: the girl from the picture, Vanessa Bunten, the second child.
28:14
Speaker 2: She said she was coming to testify. She was supposed
28:17
Speaker 2: to go to work and sign out and come in court.
28:19
Speaker 2: So we was in court waiting for her to come,
28:23
Speaker 2: so my lawyer called her. She told my lawyer that
28:26
Speaker 2: she's sorry, she cannot come anymore because when she got
28:30
Speaker 2: to work, she had a surprise promotional party for her,
28:34
Speaker 2: so she never came in testify.
28:36
Speaker 1: Another defense witness could have been Felicia Douglas, because not
28:39
Speaker 1: only had she admitted to making the statement out of
28:42
Speaker 1: anger at O'Neill and feeling pressure from the victim's friends,
28:45
Speaker 1: but also she had denied seeing Nicholas at the time
28:48
Speaker 1: of the shooting, and she was standing right next to
28:50
Speaker 1: Vanessa Edwards.
28:52
Speaker 2: She came to the court ready to testify, but only
28:56
Speaker 2: lawyer pulled back. He said, listen, we're not going to
28:59
Speaker 2: put her on this because with the four statement that
29:02
Speaker 2: she made, the district attorney will eat her up. So
29:06
Speaker 2: he decided not to put her on the stand.
29:08
Speaker 1: And let's face it, separate trials had a singularly focused
29:12
Speaker 1: strategy probably would have made a difference for Nicholas, but
29:16
Speaker 1: unfortunately he was deprived of that. And then the district
29:20
Speaker 1: attorney had one more tactic.
29:22
Speaker 3: She put the mom on.
29:23
Speaker 2: The stand, and the mom testified above for half an hour,
29:27
Speaker 2: and she cried the whole alf an hour. You know
29:29
Speaker 2: what I mean, I cried, I'm sitting over there, she cried,
29:33
Speaker 2: I can't remember that.
29:36
Speaker 3: This deliberation, this.
29:38
Speaker 2: One took three days, not like the first one that
29:41
Speaker 2: took almost two weeks. This one took three days.
29:45
Speaker 3: And the verdict came in. They started O'Neill.
29:48
Speaker 2: First, murder her in the second degree not guilty, so I.
29:52
Speaker 3: Was like, oh whooa.
29:54
Speaker 2: But then manslaughter guilty, criminal position of a weapon guilty,
29:59
Speaker 2: recklessly guilty, so now.
30:01
Speaker 3: It was my term. They read a murder not guilty,
30:05
Speaker 3: so no o, so they read out manslaughter.
30:09
Speaker 2: I was guilty, criminal position guilty, reckless endigierment guilty.
30:14
Speaker 3: So we got the same charges. We had to go
30:17
Speaker 3: back like.
30:18
Speaker 2: Three months for sentence, and I gave my condolences to
30:22
Speaker 2: the family. I told the mom, listen, your daughter blood
30:26
Speaker 2: is not on my hand. I don't know what happened,
30:28
Speaker 2: but I give you my deepest condolence. O'Neill did the
30:34
Speaker 2: same thing. I asked the judge for sympathy, but it
30:40
Speaker 2: was gotten. The mac sentence and all charges five to
30:43
Speaker 2: fifteen on the Manto fifteen flat for the criminal position
30:48
Speaker 2: of a weapon and three to seven on the reckless engagement.
30:52
Speaker 2: The fifteen flat overrides the five to fifteen. If it
30:56
Speaker 2: wasn't the fifteen flat, I think would have been home
30:58
Speaker 2: long time ago. But because fifteen flat, we had to
31:01
Speaker 2: do the whole fifteen years. When I got to five points,
31:23
Speaker 2: he was a double bunk jail, so I was like,
31:27
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I gotta share this small space with someone.
31:31
Speaker 2: But the guy that I was bunk with, he was
31:36
Speaker 2: pretty cool.
31:37
Speaker 3: You know, so we become close. Then he left.
31:41
Speaker 2: Then no, I was worrying again and be like, oh
31:43
Speaker 2: my god, I hope I don't get a nasty bunky,
31:45
Speaker 2: you know, But I got somebody pretty decent. He was
31:49
Speaker 2: like older. He's also good in the law. His name
31:51
Speaker 2: is Paul Thompson. Actually he's also innocent in his case.
31:57
Speaker 2: Somebody had shot him and the person that shot him
32:02
Speaker 2: died later, so they're trying to say he was the
32:05
Speaker 2: one that did it. So they paid a crackhead, put
32:08
Speaker 2: him up in the hotel, make him live in luxury
32:11
Speaker 2: to testify against him that he saw him that day
32:13
Speaker 2: that shoot the guy that shot him.
32:15
Speaker 3: So he's good with the laws. He's still fighting right now.
32:19
Speaker 1: Paul Thompson, all right, we'll try to make contact somehow.
32:22
Speaker 2: He got twenty five to life and I got fifteen years.
32:25
Speaker 2: I saw I could never complain. I'm gonna go back out.
32:29
Speaker 3: He might not.
32:30
Speaker 1: And what's wild about Nicholas's appeal process was that since
32:33
Speaker 1: three years went by pre trial, a lot of the
32:36
Speaker 1: information that we talked about today was discovered and used
32:41
Speaker 1: by the defense, so new evidence couldn't get him the
32:44
Speaker 1: relief that he needed and deserved. At least not yet. Now.
32:48
Speaker 1: The issues that were raised on direct appeal and in
32:51
Speaker 1: his habeas related to insufficiency of evidence, as well as
32:55
Speaker 1: potentially prejudicial comments and conduct by the prosecution. Unfortunately, the
33:00
Speaker 1: time that was denied, it was already twenty twenty two,
33:03
Speaker 1: eleven long years into a maximum sentence of fifteen years.
33:08
Speaker 2: Because you know, when you get fifteen years, you have
33:11
Speaker 2: good time, so you don't actually do the whole fifteen years.
33:15
Speaker 3: You know.
33:15
Speaker 2: I wasn't giving no trouble inside, so I still had
33:19
Speaker 2: my good time, you know, So I actually did twelve
33:22
Speaker 2: years and ten months. My release date was January seventh,
33:27
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, right before I came home. You know,
33:32
Speaker 2: they have a saint say in the streets talk, you know,
33:35
Speaker 2: so I waited the years to see if someone my
33:39
Speaker 2: anti prayed like, oh, the real person was going to
33:42
Speaker 2: come forward one day, and right before I came home,
33:46
Speaker 2: I called my cousin one day and she told me
33:48
Speaker 2: that she heard who did it.
33:53
Speaker 1: He knows the alternative suspect's name, but that would still
33:56
Speaker 1: need to be verified. And we're not going to name
33:58
Speaker 1: names here if it's not confirmed, but that could be
34:01
Speaker 1: a very promising starting point for an interested attorney who
34:06
Speaker 1: hopefully is listening right now, who might want to take
34:09
Speaker 1: up the cause of clearing Nicholas's name once and for all.
34:12
Speaker 1: It also seems that there's an ineffective council claim here
34:16
Speaker 1: for not having severed the trials.
34:19
Speaker 2: When I did my appeal, that was a big thing.
34:22
Speaker 2: My lawyer, Alan Feleck, he was saying, listen, you could
34:25
Speaker 2: have easily walk away from this if the child was separated.
34:29
Speaker 2: But at the time my lawyer it felt like it
34:32
Speaker 2: was best for him to team up, so you have
34:35
Speaker 2: two lawyers against one district attorney. But he was wrong
34:38
Speaker 2: because every other lawyer looked at my case they said, yeah,
34:42
Speaker 2: y'all should have been separated.
34:43
Speaker 1: So we'll be linking the contact information for Nicholas Brucky
34:47
Speaker 1: Allen in the episode description for any interested attorney or
34:52
Speaker 1: anyone who has it pertinent information, including the actual shooter
34:58
Speaker 1: or one of the men in the stairwell morning. But
35:01
Speaker 1: back to his release. Since his immigration status was impacted
35:05
Speaker 1: by this roundful conviction, he was sent to immigration detention.
35:10
Speaker 2: So I was in the immigration facility. I was deciding
35:14
Speaker 2: to fight the case, you know, But then I'm like,
35:18
Speaker 2: why would I stay any longer in prison, when I
35:23
Speaker 2: could just be free and just go back to Jamaica.
35:27
Speaker 2: I just want to live my life now. Thank God
35:29
Speaker 2: for my freedom, and that's it. But always in the
35:32
Speaker 2: back of my head saying that one day I want
35:34
Speaker 2: to clear my name, you know. And when I got
35:37
Speaker 2: to Jamaica walked out, that's when I firstly first experience freedom.
35:45
Speaker 2: On the twenty fifth January in twenty twenty four, my
35:49
Speaker 2: family here head keep a big party for me, like
35:52
Speaker 2: a welcome home party meals.
35:53
Speaker 3: When I came home that I was eating, it was
35:55
Speaker 3: like just delicious. It was. It was like a breath
35:58
Speaker 3: of fresh air. You know.
36:00
Speaker 2: It was like the actra real, authentic Jamaican taste.
36:05
Speaker 3: You know.
36:06
Speaker 1: Since Nicholas Bucky Allen has been home, he's written a
36:08
Speaker 1: book called The State of New York Versus Nicholas Allen.
36:11
Speaker 1: We're going to link to that as well. I'm going
36:13
Speaker 1: to order a copy myself. But Brucky has also connected
36:16
Speaker 1: with an old friend who has been visiting him in
36:18
Speaker 1: Jamaica and they're expecting a baby really soon. So we
36:22
Speaker 1: wish them all the best. And with that, we're going
36:26
Speaker 1: to go to closing arguments, where first of all, I
36:29
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this incredible true story. Closing arguments,
36:34
Speaker 1: of course, is a part of the show that I
36:36
Speaker 1: really look forward to, where I'm going to turn off
36:38
Speaker 1: my microphone, leave my headphones on, just close my eyes
36:42
Speaker 1: and listen to any other thoughts you want to share.
36:45
Speaker 2: When it comes to like the criminals system, you know,
36:48
Speaker 2: they always say it's unjust, but as every here goes by,
36:55
Speaker 2: people becoming more aware, so a lot of laws change
36:59
Speaker 2: in and eventually, hopefully one day there will be no
37:04
Speaker 2: more wrongfully convicted person behind bars. You know, I thank
37:10
Speaker 2: people like you for just keep bringing awareness, keep doing
37:15
Speaker 2: what you're doing. The work that you're doing is not
37:18
Speaker 2: going unseen or unheard, because you got to understand a
37:23
Speaker 2: lot of the dudes in there, they don't really have
37:25
Speaker 2: a voice. So with yeah being the voice for them
37:28
Speaker 2: out here, they trust me. They would really appreciate that.
37:32
Speaker 2: Because when I used to be in jail, and I
37:36
Speaker 2: used to be in prison and I heard oh, this
37:39
Speaker 2: law is coming, this law is coming soon, that law
37:43
Speaker 2: is coming soon, I'm like, ah, it was because the
37:46
Speaker 2: people like you, like protests, people fight, people bring awareness.
37:52
Speaker 2: So I just cannot do nothing else but show y'all
37:56
Speaker 2: my gratitude like I thank y'all so much.
37:58
Speaker 1: Man, all of y'all, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction.
38:11
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for
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Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing
38:17
Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want
38:20
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink,
38:23
Speaker 1: as well as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis,
38:26
Speaker 1: and Jeff Kleiber. The music in this production was supplied
38:29
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
38:32
Speaker 1: to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava
38:35
Speaker 1: for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow
38:38
Speaker 1: me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is
38:41
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
38:44
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number One. We've worked hard to ensure that
38:47
Speaker 1: all facts reported in this show are accurate.
38:49
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
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Speaker 2: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
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Speaker 2: those of Lava for Good.